Now is the time to go "all in" on AI (Microsoft AI's Mustafa Suleyman & Reid Hoffman) | Summit 2024

Reid Hoffman 0:00 [ on-hold music] [applause] So why don't we start small and, uh, you know-

Mustafa Suleyman 0:18 [laughing] That means big.

Reid Hoffman 0:20 Yes, exactly.

Mustafa Suleyman 0:21 First of all, I just wanted to say the dancers were incredible.

Reid Hoffman 0:24 Yes, awesome.

Mustafa Suleyman 0:24 Like, thank you so much for opening like that.

Reid Hoffman 0:26 Yes. [applause]

Mustafa Suleyman 0:28 Like, what a way to start the day.

Reid Hoffman 0:31 Yeah. And, and part of what the whole, uh, Masters of Scale team does so brilliantly is not only are they focused on us or the, the logistic, the kind of like, how do we scale these things? How do we support entrepreneurship? But also the creativity, the spirit, and everything else, and that interleave, exactly as Jeff was, was opening, is one of the things, the many things that I have loved and learned about being-

Mustafa Suleyman 0:55 And the humanity.

Reid Hoffman 0:56 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 0:56 Like, it was really beautiful.

Reid Hoffman 0:57 Yeah, exactly. Um, so, um,

Reid Hoffman 1:00 so you know, uh, you, other people have sometimes, uh, you know, made parallels between AI and a species. Uh, and thinking about this as [laughing] starting small, like I said-

Mustafa Suleyman 1:16 Let's go. [laughing]

Reid Hoffman 1:17 Yes. Um, so you know, what's, uh... How is that as a lens for thinking about AI? What are the places in which it's a good lens? What are the places in which it's a misleading lens? Uh, what's the way that it should guide kind of the, the global thinking for how we're getting there?

Mustafa Suleyman 1:37 You know, I think, um, when we have something that is fundamentally new, that is, like, unlike anything we've sort of seen before, which each new, you know, sort of wave of technology really does feel like that. I mean, if you think about how utterly magical and crazy it must have been to have electricity for the first time, or even to speak to somebody via a telephone line across the Atlantic. I mean, it, it must have just been mind-blowing. It adds a completely new mental representation to your worldview of what's possible. So each time that happens, we sort of struggle for the right metaphor to relate it to something that we do know. Um, it isn't ultimately gonna be like that thing that we do know, but it's the best that we have before it arrives. And I propose this new digital species metaphor just because when you step back and look at the capabilities of these things, it's really the closest corollary, even though that kind of is, raises a lot of things that we don't want it to be, um, and I think frames the question of containment, um, in, in the correct way. I mean, these models will be able to see what you see, hear what you hear, understand and interact with text and, you know, in real time, take actions on your behalf. Those capabilities are now coming into vogue, and I think, you know, the, the right metaphor, the most similar alternative that we've got is, is the species, and that comes with, I think, a helpful frame for thinking about what we don't want it to be as well.

Reid Hoffman 3:08 And,

Reid Hoffman 3:09 and what would you say would be, on the species, the one thing that it's really important that we do and the one thing that's really important that we try not to do in order to guide in the digital species as, as we're... And by the way, I recommend Mustafa's book, The Coming Wave, which, which also goes into this depth. This is like the, you know, sixty-second version.

Mustafa Suleyman 3:29 I think, like, one of the things that's incredible about these models is that they don't give you exactly what you put in, and that's, that's sort of the great ambition of, of software, right? We want it to tell me something that I don't know. And so hallucinations are s- I think are a kind of unfortunate phrase. Like, that's not a downside.

Reid Hoffman 3:50 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 3:51 To me, that's the upside.

Reid Hoffman 3:53 Called creativity in some-

Mustafa Suleyman 3:54 Yeah, creativity. We want, like, a wide variety of possible responses given some input, and that malleability and that ambiguity is what we want. Um, and so having them learn their own representations of things rather than us handcraft those features, which was the core motivation of the last fifteen years of machine learning, i- is-- it's great that it's now doing that. But what we sort of need to figure out is where is the boundary on that learning, right? At the moment, there's very little, if any, recursive self-improvement. So there's not a closed loop of self-improvement that doesn't have a human directly overseeing it. But we can see that coming into view in 2025. Teams will start experimenting with that. And so I think that's one to watch as something to be cautious about. The other thing is, um, just straight-up autonomy, right? Like, you know, it's clearly going to increase the risk if these models can, you know, interact in arbitrary digital environments, spin up their own VMs, you know, take actions on, you know, web pages, interact with APIs, and do all that kind of thing completely independently of human oversight and control. So those are two capabilities that we would be pretty concerned about.

Reid Hoffman 5:06 And then on the positive side.

Mustafa Suleyman 5:08 I think that, like, the positive side is that they will be immensely creative, and I think that they're gonna help us to interact with the very best of ourselves. You know, the, the, the fact that they don't need to be, if well designed, snarky, judgmental, shame-inducing.

Reid Hoffman 5:26 [laughing]

Mustafa Suleyman 5:27 You know, most humans can be assholes, right?

Reid Hoffman 5:29 Yes. [laughing]

Mustafa Suleyman 5:30 There's, there's no reason for these things to be mean.

Reid Hoffman 5:33 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 5:33 Some people will program some AI companions to be all of those things, and those, those-- that isn't an inevitable outcome. That is a choice that some designers will make, and you know, I think structurally we should do everything in our power to limit those kinds of things in the ecosystem, in the norms and values and stuff. But some people will do it, but I think that there's plenty of space for these things to really help us be our best selves. Like, I read this paper a couple, three weeks ago on- [clears throat] That, that basically reported that, you know, a bunch of people who had real conspiracy theories, I mean, I'm talking about like flat Earth level conspiracy theory-

Reid Hoffman 6:11 Uh-huh.

Mustafa Suleyman 6:11 Uh-

Reid Hoffman 6:11 There's a few of those.

Mustafa Suleyman 6:12 Yeah. [laughs] I just stay away from election-

Reid Hoffman 6:14 [laughs] Yes, yes

Mustafa Suleyman 6:15 ... stuff. But just even like, I think that we should really all agree that the flat Earth one is like-

Reid Hoffman 6:20 Yes. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 6:20 ... that's pretty nuts.

Reid Hoffman 6:21 Yes. [laughs]

Speaker 6:21 [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 6:22 So [laughs] like people who had chatted to a chatbot over the l- an extended period of time, I think it was like six weeks or something, reduced their propensity to believe the conspiracy theory, and that's 'cause the chatbot is patient, it's non-judgmental-

Reid Hoffman 6:35 Yes. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 6:36 ... doesn't put you down.

Reid Hoffman 6:37 [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 6:37 It's relentless.

Reid Hoffman 6:38 Yes. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 6:38 It always comes back.

Reid Hoffman 6:40 [laughs] Good.

Mustafa Suleyman 6:40 And um, you know, generally draws on, you know, the kind of scientific literature with an evidence base, so on and so forth. So I think there are very promising signs that the upside really will be incredible.

Reid Hoffman 6:51 So, um, actually I, I'm gonna jump ahead to a question that I was planning on asking you in a bit, but I think this is a good frame for it, which is, you know, when you, Karen, and I started Inflection, one of the founding principles was that EQ, um, as, as important as IQ.

Mustafa Suleyman 7:08 Right.

Reid Hoffman 7:09 Say a little bit about why, what that meant for Pi. You know, what, what, what is the thinking of that and why is that important across the board, not just for what Pi is doing?

Mustafa Suleyman 7:19 Right. Right. Um, I mean, you know, IQ, I think we can generally consider to be the sort of accuracy, um, the speed, the comprehensiveness, the relevancy of an answer, the extent to which it has real time access to information. You know, all of those things we're sort of making, there's a steady march of progress, and I think w- what I sort of noticed was that what people tended to, you know, people in the, in the community of sort of AI researchers in general tended to neglect the importance of the delivery vehicle for the information. Like it's kind of a very nerdy thing to just say, "Well, if I just lay out the facts, then people will clearly-

Reid Hoffman 7:54 [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 7:55 ... see that this is correct."

Reid Hoffman 7:56 Yes, the engineering mindset.

Mustafa Suleyman 7:57 Yes. And it turns out that actually tone, style, you know, the kind of emotional intelligence of these models, the extent to which they will ask you questions, you know, the ex- extent to which it reflects back in a sort of type of language that you might use and so on, that delivery vehicle for the substance is perhaps more important to the majority of consumers than just an objective regurgitation of Wikipedia. Um, and so I, I think that's gonna be one of the key capabilities that... I think everyone's starting to wrestle with that now, is like this kind of agentic future isn't just about the actions. People can clearly see it's also about the personality, and I'm, I'm very interested in how we sort of engineer personality because I think that's kind of what people are really gonna find or what I can see people find very

Mustafa Suleyman 8:44 valuable.

Reid Hoffman 8:44 So speaking of the agentic future, um, give us a bit of a lens into it. Like what is the places and how you're thinking about it from a copilot perspective? Um, what is the kind of ways that you think about are the likelihood in the next two to five years about how agents will be playing a role in our life? Uh, what's important, you know, from the species level now down to the specific about these agents and, and how should we navigate with them?

Mustafa Suleyman 9:13 So, so the first step for the agentic future is that you, your copilot has to, your, your AI companion in general, has to see what you see. And h- having an aide or an assistant or a companion that is really seeing the pixels that you see on the screen, in your browser, on your desktop, on your phone, means that there's a kind of level of constant, you know, sort of awareness of your sensory input that enables your companion to also observe what you're seeing. And then you can say, you can, you can sort of use ambiguous references like, [clears throat] like, "Remember that thing that I saw?" Or, "Where were those things?" Or what w- and, and that is a kind of level of sort of understanding that we've sort of never had before, and it enables your sort of AI to then, you know, sort of act on your behalf, right? And that means like, um, navigating on the browser, it means using APIs, booking things, buying and planning. And I think that, you know, the, we've obviously got a lot of cool demos floating around of those kinds of things at the moment. It, it seems to me that we're still a little way away of getting those ready for in production. You can see it from all the previous waves, like just before GPT-3, there were, you know, models, LLMs inside the big companies and stuff, and that was probably in sort of 2020, 2021, and they were really flaky. Um, and I think that may be where we are with the AQ side of things, the actions quotient.

Reid Hoffman 10:38 Mm.

Mustafa Suleyman 10:38 So I, I think that getting things to work 50, 60% of the time is, you know, great, and we have to get them to like 99% accuracy. And you can sort of see that with voice recognition and dictation.

Reid Hoffman 10:50 Yeah.

Mustafa Suleyman 10:50 Like it, that's been a f- 15 or 20 year trajectory, and it's really only in the last sort of two, three, four years where it's crossed the threshold where it's sort of like 99.5-ish percent accurate. It's personalized, you know, and so y- you know, you're starting to see a huge uptick in people going voice first, partly 'cause of the input, but also 'cause of the generation. So I think it's a few years away from that, yeah.

Reid Hoffman 11:12 And what do you think is the intersection between the voice input? 'Cause I actually completely agree. I actually think part of, and you know this 'cause we've talked about this a lot, but it's the, uh, the, the generative AI revolution allows it to be in that conversation that allows the voice input to work so better because you don't... You can just speak to it, and then it can interpret actually what you're saying. And how is that going to kind of bring that extra elevation to the agentic universe?

Mustafa Suleyman 11:41 Yeah. The, the interface, the shape of the interface, just very abstractly, governs what you can put into it.

Reid Hoffman 11:49 Mm.

Mustafa Suleyman 11:49 So because the search box in a search engine was just a letterbox, we learned to speak the language of search, right? We, we compressed our ideas into like a three or four or five word... It's not even a sentence.

Reid Hoffman 12:02 Well, 1, 1.6 on average, just to be clear. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 12:04 There you go. Even shorter. Yeah, maybe 1.6. [laughs] So, [clears throat] and I think what's interesting about these voice experiences is that it sort of unlocks- A new part of your mind when interacting with a computer. Because you can speak in full sentences, because you can sort of self-correct, you can sort of go forward and back and, you know, you can add in all these, the other junk that we have when we're just kind of, you know, talking off the top of our head, and then the model speaks back to you in like paragraphs, it, it-- you, you suddenly think to ask and talk about things which you never would have digitized previously.

Reid Hoffman 12:38 Yeah.

Mustafa Suleyman 12:38 So that, that I think is probably a good... I mean, I think is pretty sure to be a good framework that tells you what is likely to happen on the action side of things. Because you have this always available AI companion that can really do any digital task you can do, I think you will ask it to do things that you don't do yourself on the computer today. And that, that I think is a big shift-

Reid Hoffman 13:01 Yeah

Mustafa Suleyman 13:01 ... because the barrier to entry to get something done is about to go through the floor, right? It's both 'cause there's zero marginal cost and because of the friction has like really diminished. And so then you'll, you'll think of things that you hadn't thought about to do yourself 'cause it's just too much

Mustafa Suleyman 13:15 of a pain.

Reid Hoffman 13:15 What is the ways you think this will help us also become more creative? Like, what are the kind of creative, you know, kind of being inspired and inspirational that comes out of the interaction with these agents?

Mustafa Suleyman 13:27 Think about how many random ideas or things that occur to you or questions throughout the whole day.

Reid Hoffman 13:32 Mm-hmm.

Mustafa Suleyman 13:33 If you just really deeply meditate on your subconscious, like what are those moments you're like, "Ah, I wonder, I think," and, and you-- they're almost like sub-linguistic. They, they, they often don't get vocalized 'cause you don't have someone with you all the time to listen to your crazy-

Reid Hoffman 13:46 Yes

Mustafa Suleyman 13:46 ... thoughts other than you.

Reid Hoffman 13:48 [laughing] Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 13:49 And you know, you certainly don't have the effort to go type something in all the time.

Reid Hoffman 13:53 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 13:54 And actually getting your phone out and typing something in is just, just kind of a high bar. Like I, I, I would say I search quite a lot, but probably five to eight times a day. It's quite a bit of effort.

Reid Hoffman 14:04 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 14:04 So if the barrier to entry to getting those things is now lower, then surely the range of creative thoughts that you can have, which then get manifested in the context of your AI companion has to go up. And then because it remembers, I mean this is the other big thing that's gonna come way before actions is memory. We're gonna nail memory. I mean, I'm, I'm really confident 2025 memory is done.

Reid Hoffman 14:29 Yeah.

Mustafa Suleyman 14:29 Permanent memory. Which-- I mean, if you think about it, we already have memory-

Reid Hoffman 14:32 Yeah

Mustafa Suleyman 14:32 ... on the web.

Reid Hoffman 14:33 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 14:33 We retrieve from the web-

Reid Hoffman 14:35 Yep

Mustafa Suleyman 14:35 ... you know, all the time quite accurately now. Copilot has really good citations. It's up to date fifteen minutes ago, knows what's happened in the news, on the web, and so on. So we're all-- we're just kind of compressing that to do it for your personal knowledge graph, and then you can sort of add in your, your own documents and your email and calendar, stuff like that. So memory's gonna completely transform these experiences because you will be-- It's sort of frustrating to like have a meaningful conversation or go on a interesting exploration around some creative idea, and then come back three or four or five sessions later and it's like, "Let's start again." [chuckles] We've completely forgotten what we talked about.

Reid Hoffman 15:10 Yes. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 15:11 You know, so I think that's gonna be a big shift as well 'cause you'll know-- not only does it lower the barrier to entry to you expressing a creative idea, but those things don't get forgotten too. So you can do this ambiguous cross-reference back to something that you-- "What was that thing I said like three weeks ago?"

Reid Hoffman 15:27 Yeah, and how does this relate to this thing we were talking about? Much more of a conversation.

Mustafa Suleyman 15:31 Much more of a conversation, yeah, exactly. And that is-- it's sort of like having a second brain in that. It's like an extension of your mind, and that, that's kind of why the EQ side of it is so important.

Reid Hoffman 15:40 A hundred

Reid Hoffman 15:41 percent. So let's go now down to a little bit more of the tactical with models 'cause we have a lot of entrepreneurs and kind of thinking about like, okay, here's how to be thinking about how this landscape's evolving in the next couple of years and, and, and what are the things to watch for.

Mustafa Suleyman 15:56 I mean, the good news is that models are both getting bigger and smaller at the same time, and that's almost certainly gonna continue. So there's a sort of new flavor of methods that is starting to come into vogue in the last year, which is known as distillation. You have big, very smart, expensive models that cost a lot for inference, teach small models, and they can do reinforcement learning from AI feedback, and that supervision, you know, seems to be pretty good. I think there's good evidence of that now. So but scale is definitely gonna still be a part of the game. I mean, we've got plenty of room to go. Um, there'll be plenty of data, and so I don't see any sort of slowdown, at least for the next two to three years, in scale models delivering outsized performance. Um, there's also new modalities to put in. So of course, we're adding sort of video and image and stuff like that. But really what we're sort of [clears throat] the hard part we're interested in is, um, trajectories of actions across complex sort of digital surfaces. So jumping from a browser to the desktop and then handing off to your phone and then going from different ecosystems, whether, you know, sort of in your walled garden or in the open web. And you sort of, you know, we're trying to sort of understand these trajectories, collect lots of that data, use supervised fine-tuning, and so on. And I think that's gonna deliver a lot of impressive results.

Reid Hoffman 17:15 And the other thing obviously is, is there's tons of different angles by which data is talked about a lot. Um, and, uh, so I-- the c- the classic ones, which is like, okay, which data can you run over and what is the quality? I think I'll let that for the, you know, corpus of tons and tons of discussion on the web. But a little bit of I think what people don't spend quite enough time thinking about is where the, like, new data will be. And like, for example, one of the things that I think is interesting about synthetic data is we go, "Oh, actually, if we had data like this, we could train much better small models, big models." And so how do we get, how do we get to that data? How do we make sure it's integrated? What's some of the ways that entrepreneurs should be thinking about this?

Mustafa Suleyman 17:55 I mean, think about a prompt, [clears throat] a, a, a sort of not just a, a question that you ask. I think the, the language got a bit confused. When you, when you ask a- S-- uh, a chatbot a question, that's a question. It's not a prompt, it's a question. When you put-- when you write a three-page style guide with a set of examples to imitate, that's a prompt, and then you subsequently ask questions of a model that has been prompted. So j-- with that frame in mind, the prompt is kind of your f-- your data. It's your high-quality set of instructions which give your pre-trained model direction to behave in a certain way. And it's kind of remarkable that the model, you know, can take literally just a few pages of instructions and really behave very differently to a model that has been prompted in a very different way. That in itself is kind of crazy. But if you just step one step back further, in order for a model to perform, you know, with nuance and precision and subtlety and really adhere to the brand values of your business or to the unique product that you're trying to create, you have to show tens of thousands of examples of good behavior, um, and you have to fine-tune those into the model, which is a continuation of the pre-training process with respect to some high-quality data that you know to be accurate. Now, the good news is that tens of thousands of examples are very accessible to many, you know, niche domains or many specific, uh, verticals, right? So that is an edge, and I think there's plenty of, like, room for startups in really doing high-quality fine-tuning of a pre-trained model, and then you'll get, like, much more stable adherence to the behavior policy that you care about.

Reid Hoffman 19:38 Yep. And, and how should entrepreneurs think about the use and deployment of small models? 'Cause obviously they'll be using Microsoft and OpenAI and Google and other things for the, the frontier models and scale models to help them with that, 'cause that's where the multi-billion dollar models will be. But how should entrepreneurs be thinking about, like, what kinds of opportunities come about with small models? How can they do something that's interesting and unique with it?

Mustafa Suleyman 20:03 Yeah, I mean, I think it's so [clears throat] s-small is definitely going to be the future because if you think about it, the very large model, when you ask a query of a really like, you know, a, a kind of frontier model, in a way it's lighting up the neural representations of billions of pathways which are not relevant to the query at hand, right? And so the crazy thing is that it does that incredibly efficiently. I mean, you know, searching or sort of referencing like hundreds of millions of, um, you know, nodes if you like, at each token that is generated. You know, that's kind of crazy. But the, y-it doesn't need to do that. If you have a tight use case, then, uh, what I think is gonna happen is we're gonna sort of compress knowledge into smaller, cheaper models which can live on a fridge magnet-

Reid Hoffman 20:59 Hmm.

Mustafa Suleyman 20:59 Right? And, you know-

Reid Hoffman 21:01 I haven't heard you use that metaphor before.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:03 A fridge magnet?

Reid Hoffman 21:04 Yes. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 21:04 I don't know, this is what kind of the smallest digital thing I can think of.

Reid Hoffman 21:07 [laughs] Okay.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:07 Or maybe like even-

Reid Hoffman 21:07 Not even sure it's digital. That's [laughs] the thing.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:10 Oh, right. Yeah, that's true.

Reid Hoffman 21:11 Yes. [laughs]

Mustafa Suleyman 21:11 Yeah. But like it's like welcomes you in the morning.

Reid Hoffman 21:14 Yes, yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:14 It'll talk to you.

Reid Hoffman 21:15 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:16 Or like it's gonna be on an earbud-

Reid Hoffman 21:17 Yes, yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:17 Or a wearable-

Reid Hoffman 21:18 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:18 Or my earring, or, you know, in a plant pot-

Reid Hoffman 21:22 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:22 With a little sensor-

Reid Hoffman 21:23 Yes, yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:23 Or, you know. So those things like

Mustafa Suleyman 21:26 the ambient sensing revolution is gonna come alive, I think. It, it's been sort of long promised. Um, but y-we-- that, that's the kind of compression trajectory. It will go to the e-extreme where you can have really quite functional... You know, obviously the fridge magnet is not gonna know a lot about quantum computing-

Reid Hoffman 21:43 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:43 But it's gonna know what it needs to know in order to welcome you in the morning-

Reid Hoffman 21:47 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:47 Give you the weather, talk about what may or may not be in the fridge-

Reid Hoffman 21:50 Yes, yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:51 Remind you of your s-- your calendar. That I think is gonna be maybe a few tens of millions of parameters.

Reid Hoffman 21:56 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 21:56 And we haven't-- you know, people aren't really pushing that yet, and yet it's totally feasible for any, you know, two-person-

Reid Hoffman 22:02 Yes.

Mustafa Suleyman 22:03 Team to go and explore that.

Reid Hoffman 22:04 Yeah, exactly. And that's part of the sense it's, this is also an entrepreneurship event is, is a key thing. So, um,

Reid Hoffman 22:10 I'm gonna move to kind of a slightly longer version of our last question, which is what's the question that people should be thinking about for the next, uh, two days? And to give you a bit of, you know, a few seconds to think about it, having sprung this upon you, um, I'll start. [laughs] Right? Uh, and uh, you know, for me, that would be, and I'll, I'll, I'll generalize off, off, off what I was just saying, but it's like the, what are the things that we need to bring in as technologists to be thinking about how do we design a more human future? And frequently when people think about more human, they think about kind of classic like, okay, it's, it's, it's what has human beings been over the last, you know, uh, thousands of years in this. And that's an important part of it. But it's also important to look forward because as we evolve our technology, we evolve our humanity. We evolve our humanity through these. We evolve our humanity through, you know, mugs, stages, podcasting equipment. All of that is part of what changes who we are as human beings. And so it isn't remember that, you know, we're, we're, we just, we have emotions and passions. Yes, of course. We have compassion. Yes, of course. But how does that get expressed through how we change in the stance we are with technology? And that's what I would offer as a, as a kind of a big question to think about is that design. And now having given you a couple seconds to think about this [laughs] .

Mustafa Suleyman 23:36 I would say ask yourself, are you all in? Because this really is a transition moment, right? And I, I really think that we've sort of got enough evidence now the last like five decades of big technology transitions, all of the sort of the structure of things gets reshaped. And I think that this is a moment to found companies, scale companies. You know, it's a moment to really pivot careers even if you're not an entrepreneur. You know, even if you, you're an activist or an organizer, you know, if you're an academic, this is the moment to really pay attention because in twenty fifty, you know, the train will have left the station and it will be quite different. And this is a moment where we really do have a chance collectively to shape and influence things. Um, and nothing is predetermined. It's, it really was, is within our reach to, to shape it for the very best of humanity. And I think that's quite, that's, that's a-- we're very lucky to be alive at this moment. It feels incredibly empowering and it's a great responsibility.

Reid Hoffman 24:41 I completely agree. And, and now you see why it is I was so excited to s-kick off with Mustafa. Let's thank him. [laughs] [audience cheering] [upbeat music]