4 Attachment Styles You Need To Know To Create Healthy Relationships | The Mel Robbins Podcast

1. 0:00 – 4:06

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      (ticking clock) (upbeat music) You are going to finally get some answers to questions that I am sure have been on your mind for a long time. Questions like, "Why do I always feel left out in my friend group? Why do I always date the same losers over, and over, and over again?" The answer is attachment theory. You're about to learn that attachment style impacts every relationship. Your friendships, your work colleagues, your family, yourself, because attachment style is all about you and how you show up in relationships, and that's why it impacts everything. (upbeat music) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to another incredible episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. I'm so excited that you're joining me today because you are going to finally get some answers to questions that I am sure have been on your mind for a long time. These are questions that I know I have been grappling with. Questions like, "Why do I always feel left out in my friend group? Why does my spouse just brush me off whenever I am trying to connect? Why do I always date the same losers over, and over, and over again?" The answer is attachment theory. Now, attachment theory is something you've probably seen online. You may have read about it. It sounds intellectual, doesn't it? But it's not. It is a simple framework backed by decades of research that is going to help you better understand how you and the other people in your life show up in a relationship, and that's exactly what I want to help you do today. I want you to have better relationships. Why? Because you deserve better relationships. I mean, wouldn't it be amazing to have a whole group of friends where you could just text them whatever you're thinking or feeling? You don't have to rewrite it 55,000 times. You don't have to worry about whether or not they're mad at you. Wouldn't it be wonderful to show up in your married life or your dating life and not feel insecure or not feel like you can't trust people? Wouldn't it be awesome to feel so secure, so deserved, that you are such an awesome person that you know exactly how you want to be treated? Wouldn't it be amazing to let love and compliments into your life? You better believe it would be amazing. And the way that you do that is you learn how to improve your relationships, not only your relationship with yourself but your relationship with absolutely everybody you interact with, and that's where attachment theory comes in. When you understand your attachment style and you understand how to become more securely attached, you will have a better and happier life, full stop. You're gonna feel safer, more secure, and this is the part I love the most, you'll be able to show up absolutely anywhere with anybody and be your full self. How freaking awesome does that sound? Now, it's interesting because I didn't really understand attachment theory until recently, and now that I've learned a lot about it, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." My husband Christopher and I have basically been talking about attachment theory for two years in our marriage counseling every week because we have totally different attachment styles. I also know that a lot of you that are in your 20s right now are reading that book Attached because it became super popular during the pandemic. Our daughters, who are 23 and 22, are reading it. And I know that you've seen attachment theory or maybe you've discussed attachment theory with friends or your therapist, but today, guess what? Everybody is invited to this conversation because we are gonna get every one of you up to speed so that you understand yourself, you understand your attachment style, you understand attachment styles in other people, and more importantly, you can use absolutely everything that you learn today to improve your relationship to yourself and others. So, how are we gonna do that? Well,

2. 4:06 – 5:04

   Intro to Dr. Franco

   1. MRMel Robbins4:06

      I have tracked down one of the world's leading experts on attachment theory. Her name is Dr. Marisa Franco. She's a psychologist, a professor at the University of Maryland. She's also the New York Times best-selling author of the book on attachment styles and how they impact your friendships. That book, it is called Platonic, and don't you worry, I'm gonna put all her information in the show notes, just like always. And that's important because it's not just your romantic relationships. You're about to learn that attachment style impacts every relationship. Your friendships, your work colleagues, your family, yourself, because attachment style is all about you and how you show up in relationships, and that's why it impacts everything. So let's get you feeling secure and get Dr. Marisa Franco on the line, people. Dr. Franco, I am so excited that you're joining us. Thank you.

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco5:00

      I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

   3. MRMel Robbins5:02

      In your work, you describe

3. 5:04 – 15:38

   Key Concept: Unpacking the 4 Attachment Styles

   1. MRMel Robbins5:04

      four attachment styles. And so the first one is secure. What does that mean?

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco5:09

      Secure. Secure, you are comfortable giving and receiving love. You trust that other people love you. You can bring up conflict very level-headedly. Your skill is really perspective-taking. When something happens in your relationships, you are thinking about the other person's needs and your own and how to balance both of your needs. You tend to be a really good friend. You're more likely to initiate friendships, less likely to end friendships, more likely to maintain them, um, you know, very comfortable being vulnerable but in a flexible way, whereas, you know, anxious people, you'll see them be vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable. Other people aren't responding and they're still pushing vulnerability, whereas secure people are like, "If you're not responsive to this, I'm gonna become less vulnerable." They tend to look for relationships with other people that are healthy, right?

   3. MRMel Robbins5:52

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco5:52

      Because their assumption is that, "I'm lovable and I deserve to be loved by other people."

   5. MRMel Robbins5:57

      So at the basis of somebody with a secure attachment style-... you have an assumption that you are lovable-

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:04

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MRMel Robbins6:04

      ... and that you deserve to be loved. And-

   8. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:05

      Yeah, it's kind of like you're on your own side, right? Like, you're-

   9. MRMel Robbins6:08

      Is there anybody on the planet like that?

   10. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:10

       (laughs)

   11. MRMel Robbins6:10

       I just, you know... (laughs) Can you introduce me to them? I, I... (laughs)

   12. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:15

       (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins6:17

       I, I'm not kidding.

   14. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:19

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins6:19

       Um, 'cause it feels like that's a very whole and, uh, safe and healthy human being.

   16. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:29

       Yeah. And attachment is a spectrum, right? So nobody's fully secure, just like nobody's fully anxious or nobody's fully avoidant.

   17. MRMel Robbins6:37

       So the second one is anxious. So can you tell us-

   18. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:40

       Anxious.

   19. MRMel Robbins6:40

       ... what your anxious, what an anxious attachment style might be?

   20. MFDr. Marisa Franco6:43

       So your core fear is that everybody's abandoning you. You tend to see rejection even when it's not occurring. Like, a friend is, like, tired, and you're like, "Oh my god, they're rejecting me, they hate me," or a friend has taken a little longer to respond to you, right? You don't consider other people's circumstances when determining how they're treating you. You just take everything personally. At the neurological level, research finds that your amygdala, which is the part of your brain associated with stress, is more sensitive. It lights up more than people of other attachment styles. Um, you are, you know, kind of passive-aggressive in conflict. You are very self-sacrificing until you sort of blow up because you can't take it anymore, right? Your relationships just tend to be kind of unbalanced. It's you giving, giving, giving until you can't anymore, and then you sort of just pull away. Uh, you're not very flexible. You can be kind of controlling, again, because, like I spoke about earlier, you need other people to soothe your emotions. So when someone is doing something and you feel triggered, you almost have to try to control them to get you to soothe your own emotions. So-

   21. MRMel Robbins7:46

       Hmm.

   22. MFDr. Marisa Franco7:46

       Anxiously attached people, they're almost, like, they're, like, kind of avoidant towards themselves. Like, they'll, their internal dialogue is like, "I'm too much." You know, "These feelings aren't okay," right? They very much invalidate their own feelings and emotions, which is part of the reason why they really need other people to validate themselves.

   23. MRMel Robbins8:04

       You basically just described me. I don't know if you knew that this was a therapy session for Mel Robbins-

   24. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:09

       (laughs)

   25. MRMel Robbins8:09

       ... but Dr. Franco, we just have a diagnosis now.

   26. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:12

       Mm-hmm.

   27. MRMel Robbins8:12

       Let's talk about the third attachment style, avoidant.

   28. MFDr. Marisa Franco8:16

       Yeah, so avoidant people, they fundamentally don't trust others. They think, "If I get close to you, you are going to harm me." So they don't get close to others. They might ha- they don't initiate as much. They're more likely to end friendships, more likely to ghost on others, not as emotional, very, struggle so much with vulnerability, not only in themselves, but other people. Like, if you're, if you're vulnerable with someone who's more avoidant, they might pull away from you, right? In, in relationships, it feels like there's a dance with them where you feel like you're getting close to them, and then all of a sudden they sort of back away. Uh, they tend to ignore problems. They minimize them. They ignore conflict. They talk like everything's always okay and why are you making a big deal of them? Like, they have this assumption that people shouldn't have needs, both them and other people. And so when it comes to friendship, they're sort of like low-effort and low-reward. They don't put a lot of effort into their relationships, and they also feel very disconnected from other people.

   29. MRMel Robbins9:16

       Hmm. And then you said there was a fourth one. It's not quite organized, meaning that the style is the style when it comes to connection or, like, trying to connect, but that it's, uh, this fourth one that's a little bit more disorganized, you said. So can you explain-

   30. MFDr. Marisa Franco9:34

       Yeah.
4. 15:38 – 26:58

   Is it easier to spot Attachment Style in yourself or in someone else?

   1. MRMel Robbins15:38

      it easier to spot someone's attachment style in yourself or in somebody else?

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco15:45

      You know, (laughs) one way that I hear other people's attachment style is, like, how they perceive other people. So, you know, the, the insecure attach... You know, with anxious people you hear them say, like, "All my relationships are fragile," or, "Everybody's gonna kind of abandon me." And the avoidants, you'll hear them say, "Nobody can be trusted," right? And when you have this one template about everybody, it's a sign that it's not actually everybody 'cause you're not actually discerning each person. You just are coming in with this understanding and superimposing it onto the present, which is what attachment style is really. Um, so when I hear someone's secure though, they'll, they always try to give people the benefit of the doubt while having boundaries. So they'll say things like, "I had to love that person from afar." And they can admit that-

   3. MRMel Robbins16:30

      Mm.

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco16:30

      ... even when I had, I d- uh, even though we didn't maybe... Like when they talk about their exes, there'll be some complexity, like, "It didn't work out for this reason, but I like them for this reason," instead of like a, "My ex was, you know, just evil." (laughs) Um, so you'll, you'll hear that complexity with securely attached people and you'll hear them trying to, trying to be as loving as possible to people while also having them recognize what they, they need for themselves, so kind of both things. There's just more nuance with securely attached people and avoidant... I'm sorry, I'm answering your previous question, but I'm realizing, 'cause I have so many more thoughts on this. Whereas avoidantly attached people actually have memory issues because they block out their emotion. If you ask them to talk about things, they, um, are not very expressive. Like it's hard to get them to describe things. It's hard to get them to describe what they think or what they feel because our emotions are big indicators of what we think and feel and our opinions and our internal world. So it'll almost feel like, hmm, with someone avoidantly attached, it's like, yeah, it, it, it, the conversation is maybe... When, specifically when you talk about relationships, the conversation doesn't go as, as deep, whereas, um, anxiously attached people, their memory, they tend to misremember things and remember things as more negative than they actually were.

   5. MRMel Robbins17:48

      Mm.

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco17:48

      Um, so that's a really interesting quirk of attachment theory and memory. But, you know, back to your major question, which was, is it easier to recognize in yourself than someone else? Honestly, I think anxiously attached people tend to be so hungry for information as to how to improve, so (laughs) when I talk, anxiously attached people are ready, you know, they follow up with me and they're like, "That's me." Like, "I'm anxiously attached. I cling. I'm so afraid everyone's gonna abandon me and I think everybody's judging me." (laughs) So I, I, I think often anxiously attached people, they hear, you know, the basics of attachment theory and they kind of, you know, quickly see themselves in it. That's not happened to me as much with avoidantly attached people. Again, they struggle with vulnerability, so I imagine it would be harder to say, "I'm avoidantly attached and I've had these struggles in the past." Um, of course-

   7. MRMel Robbins18:33

      So if you are, if-

   8. MFDr. Marisa Franco18:34

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins18:34

      I have a question about that 'cause that's fascinating.

   10. MFDr. Marisa Franco18:37

       Sure.

   11. MRMel Robbins18:37

       If you...... Are avoidantly attached and you're listening to somebody talk about attachment theory, given that somebody that has an anxious attachment style might immediately self-diagnose, might immediately see themselves, what is an, what is a- an avoidant attachment style person likely to experience as they're learning about attachment styles-

   12. MFDr. Marisa Franco19:04

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins19:04

       ... and considering themselves as they're listening to you, Dr. Franco?

   14. MFDr. Marisa Franco19:09

       Yeah, discomfort. (laughs) Um, you know, when- when you get deep with avoidantly attached people or you, um, try to get them to acknowledge some of their wounds, they feel very uncomfortable (laughs) with that and will kind of... Maybe they'll stop listening, honestly. I mean, some- i- this- this obviously depends, and honestly there's some research that finds that if you're in a relationship with someone who's avoidant but has humility, there's a lot better outcomes, whereas the- if the avoidant person is like, "Everything's your fault and I'm fine and you're being sensitive and..." Right? Um, then that's- it's gonna be really hard to- to connect with that specific form of- of avoidant attachment. But- so th- there has to be, you know, with an avoidant attachment, a willingness to- to- to look at yourself and to be conscious of your patterns, which I think anxiously attached people tend to be more willing to do. You know, if you're having conflict with an avoidant person, often they are just stonewalling or they're ghosting-

   15. MRMel Robbins20:08

       Mm.

   16. MFDr. Marisa Franco20:08

       ... or they're minimizing or they're saying, like, "We're not gonna talk about this." Like, basically anything related to relationships and intimacy really scares and overwhelms avoidantly attached people. Like, you know, sometimes we think of anxiously attached people as sensi- more sensitive in that they get really overwhelmed when a relationship's not going well, but so do avoidantly attached people. They just express it- they express that sensitivity through removal. Like, it's- it's they can't- they can't- they're so overwhelmed emotionally by relationships, by intimacy, and so they're stonewalling, which is a sign of being emotionally overwhelmed. They're being closed off, they're being dismissive because it's too emotionally overwhelming to look at some of their own patterns, because fundamentally, avoidantly attached people have a lot of shame. If you tell them they've made a mistake, they have this core belief that, "I am a failure, that I am deficient." They probably won't admit that to you, (laughs) um, right? But any time you try to offer a critique to an avoidantly attached person th- that you might trigger that core wound of, "I'm a failure, I'm deficient," which is why it feels- it can feel so hard for an avoidantly attached person to hear some of their patterns and hear some of their dynamics.

   17. MRMel Robbins21:25

       What I love about what you're teaching us is I think that we've gotten to this point, (clears throat) especially when you look at content on social media, where there's so much of a push to cut people out of your life, to label that sort of stonewalling is the word that you just used, but, you know, if you think about it from the standpoint of somebody that has trauma in their past or they have just an avoidant attachment style because of what they experienced as a child, and that it's just overwhelming-

   18. MFDr. Marisa Franco21:59

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins21:59

       ... to feel those emotions. Like, if you can come at it from a sense of compassion, like, I'm- I- I- I- I love what you're teaching us, because through understanding, you might be able to keep somebody in your life instead of just being like, "That's it. You're out. You don't talk. You don't go deep. You're stonewalling me. You're ghosting me," when really there's a- there's a f- another side to this coin, which is, no, this is a person who, through their childhood, gets very overwhelmed by these emotions-

   20. MFDr. Marisa Franco22:34

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MRMel Robbins22:34

       ... and by intimacy, and they protect themselves by removing. This isn't about hurting you, it's about them protecting themselves. Am I-

   22. MFDr. Marisa Franco22:42

       Mm-hmm.

   23. MRMel Robbins22:42

       ... kind of processing this the right way, Dr. Franco?

   24. MFDr. Marisa Franco22:45

       You are, certainly, certainly. Um, and, you know, I think if you wanna be in a relationship with someone who's avoidant, it's important that you try to get your needs met in another relationship, right? Like, not trying to depend on this one avoidant person to meet all of your needs. The more that your needs are met elsewhere, the more you can be flexible with the person that's more avoidant, right?

   25. MRMel Robbins23:12

       Hmm.

   26. MFDr. Marisa Franco23:12

       So the more that I feel like in another relationship makes me feel secure, another relationship I can be very vulnerable and deep, another relationship I feel, um, really loved and valued, right? Then you kind of have your cup full enough to be able to be more flexible with that avoidantly attached person who's like, "You know, we had some intimacy, now I need a breather (laughs) and I need to kind of pull away for a while." Um, but I- I do think that we should challenge avoidantly attached people to say that it's okay that you need boundaries around intimacy and it's okay that intimacy scares you, but you also need to fill people in. Like, you have to just say- be able to say, like, "Hey, I'm a little overwhelmed right now. Like, I need, like, about a week and then I'll- I'll come back and we can talk about this," right? Instead of not communicating anything and just sort of, um, of ghosting (laughs) on people, 'cause that- that hurts people a lot. So- so e- you know, I think on both ends-

   27. MRMel Robbins24:11

       Does it hurt the person who's avoidant when they ghost?

   28. MFDr. Marisa Franco24:15

       Does it hurt them?

   29. MRMel Robbins24:15

       Is that contribute to shame or is that just a way to just kinda-You know, 'cause I- we-

   30. MFDr. Marisa Franco24:21

       You know, yeah.
5. 26:58 – 31:39

   Can you have more than one Attachment Style?

   1. MRMel Robbins26:58

      Can you have, uh, more than one attachment style?

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco27:03

      Yeah. Yeah. You can. Um, like I said, in each different relationship, you can have a different attachment style, and that is- it makes sense, right? 'Cause if someone is very anxious and is like, "I need all your time and attention, and you need to be showing me that you love me all the time," right? You're gonna be like, "I need some space. I need some me time. I'm losing myself to try to, you know, reassure you in all these ways." And if someone's super avoidant, and they're very distant, and you're, like, trying to connect with them, and they're always pulling away. You're gonna feel pretty anxious, right? Where it's like, "Oh my gosh. Like, I feel insecure. Do they actually like me?" Um, so- so it is a dynamic, and in different relationships, we can see different parts of our attachment style coming out. Uh, there's also a really fascinating theory called Internal Family Systems Theory, which is this idea that we ha- we all have multiple selves within us. Like, our sixth grade self, um, that was bullied is still within us. And, you know, our- our ch- inner child self that was like five years old and going through what he did in our family life is still within us. And at different moments, each of these selves can kinda come out and take over. And, you know, if you follow that framework, like, each of your selves can have a different attachment style. But the goal of internal family systems is to be led by your highest self at any given time. Um, your highest self is like your most adult self that is most centered and stable and loving and compassionate. And that self, that highest self within us is all- within all of us is secure. Like, I do believe all of us have a piece of us that is securely attached. The more we can access that self, the more we'll feel secure in our relationships.

   3. MRMel Robbins28:46

      Well, that sounds like good news. So (laughs) it sounds like, uh, within each one of us is a person or a self that is capable of secure attachment. So are you saying that if you can start to identify your default attachment style and see it as a lens and an opportunity for growth and improvement, that it is possible to change your default attachment style and become more secure?

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco29:17

      Yes. So, like, I guess it's called, like, internalized secure attachment where you have to start treating and talking to yourself like that secure attachment figure that you maybe didn't have. So, um, you know, when you're feeling a strong emotion, being able to tell yourself, "It's okay that you feel this way. Like, I'm right here with you." Um, and, you know, "What are you feeling and what do you need right now?" Like, almost being on your own side and being really, really loving toward yourself is like- that's part of the ways that we heal. Part of the ways that we find secure attachment is, like, we think about... Like, I'll even, this is, like, different things I've done to- to find more security is, like, singing love songs to yourself. Um, and, you know, when you're activated and triggered, realizing that that's not all of you and that there's a piece of you that is still grounded, and what does that grounded part of you wanna say to the triggered part of you? What love does it have to give in this moment? It also takes, like-What's happening with the insecure attachment styles is they're reactive. They're, um, getting really emotionally overwhelmed, and they're acting based on that sense of emotional overwhelm, right? So the anxiously attached person is like clinging, clinging, clinging, right? And- and it's almost like reflexive. They're not acting with intention anymore. They feel like they're almost kind of hijacked.

   5. MRMel Robbins30:41

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco30:41

      And the avoidantly per- attached person's also very hijacked, but instead it's to pull away, pull away, pull away, right? But if we can just, like, pause and, like, feel those uncomfortable emotions, like, "Oh my gosh, I feel, I feel so rejected right now. I feel so abandoned right now," like where do you feel that emotion in your body? How can you lean into feeling it more deeply? Allow yourself to feel it, right? Because fundamentally this acting out behavior is a way to try to cope with a very difficult underlying emotion. And you can instead of using this acting out behavior, like anxiously attached person demanding things of the other person, or clinging to the other person, or the avoidantly attached person suddenly pulling away, you can develop your own tolerance for that feeling or emotion that's very uncomfortable so that you don't have to act out in your relationships to protect yourself from it.

   7. MRMel Robbins31:37

      I wanna focus on avoidant or

6. 31:39 – 35:38

   Why it's important to build a Secure Attachment

   1. MRMel Robbins31:39

      disorganized right now because I really identify personally with anxious attachment. And since you already said that somebody with an anxiet- anxious attachment style is kind of prone to self-diagnose and want to fix it and always be thinking, da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da, (clears throat) I'm thinking about avoidant now.

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco31:59

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins31:59

      And I'm thinking about disorganized because as you go sing a love song to yourself, I personally am like, "Oh, that sounds beautiful."

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:06

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins32:07

      But Dr. Franco, can we talk to the person who's listening right now who just had a visceral, "That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard"?

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:19

      (laughs)

   7. MRMel Robbins32:19

      No, I'm serious because-

   8. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:21

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins32:21

      ... I, I, I think that for people who are already like, "Yeah, I- I'm sick of being hijacked by my emotions," I am married to somebody who is avoidant. I realized in researching this show, Dr. Franco, (laughs) and getting ready for this interview, I didn't understand attachment style, and yet I have been talking about it in couples therapy for two years-

   10. MFDr. Marisa Franco32:43

       Yeah.

   11. MRMel Robbins32:43

       ... because I'm anxious and my husband is avoidant. And the shame piece that he feels and puts onto himself is something I was unaware of. Like, I've been griping that, "Oh, you know, I'm married to this guy that's really quiet and he doesn't..." 3da3da3da3da3da. And trying to draw him out.

   12. MFDr. Marisa Franco33:03

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins33:03

       And so could you first explain to somebody who's having a, "This is not... Ugh. I'm, I'm not gonna tell myself. Why the hell would you do that?" Could you explain why it is so important for happiness, and confidence, and success, these things that we all deserve, to learn how to change and grow toward a more secure attachment, particularly for somebody who's avoidant or disorganized?

   14. MFDr. Marisa Franco33:34

       Hmm. Yeah, here's the thing about avoidantly attached people. They think they're super independent and don't really need anyone, but that's a defense mechanism against an underlying need for connection that they don't think they can actually fulfill. And I think if you're being really honest with yourself, no matter what your attachment style is, you'll see that you, a part of you really does crave connection. And if you felt like you could find it and feel comfortable and safe with it, that would... It would feel a lot safer for you to admit it to yourself. And I'll also say that you will not know how beautiful connection, deep, profound, sustaining connection is until you find it. Um, that's the only way that you'll be able to judge whether you need connection in your life or not, right? Because you're thinking you don't need connection, but fundamentally you don't even know what connection is because avoidantly attached people, when they're in relationships, they're not actually vulnerable. They're not sharing anything about themselves. They're not very, like, authentic, to be real. And so that is... They're connecting in a very shallow way and they're saying, when they're saying, "I don't need connection," it's like, "I don't need that," (laughs) which is, you know, arguably, um, not true and deep connection, right? 'Cause it's not revealing and, and you're not actually being known by other people, and they're not knowing you, and you're not... You know, there's not this giving and receiving of love that's happening. It's kind of just like we're two people that are, you know, in each other's presence, right? And so, you know, I think there's this, um... And what I'm saying is that there's this disjuncture between what the avoidant person doesn't think that they need and what connection actually is and what connection actually can be, and how connection can make you feel alive and seen and centered and grounded and supported and lighter, right? Like, those are all the things that true connection will give you that you will miss out on if you're very avoidant.

7. 35:38 – 52:29

   Key Concept: How to begin healing if you have never experienced healthy and Secure Attachment

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco35:38

   2. MRMel Robbins35:38

      Dr. Franco, if you've never experienced that and here you are and you're decades into your life and you've always had this experience of being on the outside, right? And keeping your distance and not trusting people because both your childhood taught you that you shouldn't and can't trust people, right? Yup.

   3. MFDr. Marisa Franco36:03

      And that your own behavior of opting out because of your attachment style has only reinforced that-

   4. MRMel Robbins36:10

      Yeah.

   5. MFDr. Marisa Franco36:10

      ... because you're never stepping toward people, how on earth do you begin to change this if you've never experienced this?You have to reconnect with your own emotions. You can't connect with people if you're always suppressing your emotions, which is what avoidant people do. And it starts, I mean, obviously therapy. You know, I think therapy really. There's a, there's therapists that focus on attachment style specifically. I think a lot of, uh, male therapists who see a lot of men tend to do a lot of avoidant attachment work because this is part of how we socialize men. And there is a gender difference when it comes to attachment style where women are at least slightly more likely to be anxious, men are slightly more likely to be avoidant, right? So therapy can help. But it's even, you know, when we start allowing people to reconnect with their emotions, at first they might feel it as like a sensation, right? Like, do you feel a tingling (laughs) anywhere in your body, right? And if you had to, if you had to turn that tingling sensation, if you had to find a feeling label for it, and we take out the feelings wheel-

   6. MRMel Robbins37:17

      Can you walk us through this? So let's just say for somebody listening right now who literally... Dr. Franco is about to go, "Okay, I'm turning this off."

   7. MFDr. Marisa Franco37:24

      (laughs)

   8. MRMel Robbins37:25

      Um, we're talking to you.

   9. MFDr. Marisa Franco37:27

      Yes.

   10. MRMel Robbins37:27

       And for everybody who has somebody in their life like this, and I'm glad you said the, the piece about the research showing that women tend to be more anxious and men tend to be more avoidant.

   11. MFDr. Marisa Franco37:38

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MRMel Robbins37:38

       And the only reason why I'm saying this is because as you're very well aware and you wrote about in your book, when it comes to friendship, women are way better at naturally forming communities. And men, every year that you get older, you actually (laughs) get further and further and further away from those connections of sports teams and fraternities and work friends. And men become more and more and more isolated in... And, and, uh, you know, we tend to be better as women-

   13. MFDr. Marisa Franco38:13

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins38:14

       ... connecting and staying with, in friendships where we're airing emotions, and men typically do not. And so I wanna speak directly to somebody who may be hearing and learning about attachment theory for the very first time, they are considering, "Holy cow, I think I'm avoidant."

   15. MFDr. Marisa Franco38:37

       Yeah.

   16. MRMel Robbins38:38

       "I don't like to talk about my feelings. I don't have a lot of friends-"

   17. MFDr. Marisa Franco38:42

       Yeah.

   18. MRMel Robbins38:42

       "... other than the person I'm dating or family connection. I don't have this kind of intimacy in terms of emotional support." H- what is an exercise, and can you and I role play it, for somebody that's listening right now to, to just dip your toe into the water of trying to experience this connection to your own emotions that you're talking about?

   19. MFDr. Marisa Franco39:11

       Yeah. Yeah, we can, we can definitely do that. One thing that I also just wanted to share briefly for avoidant buy-in, because, uh, it's hard to get avoidant people to, to buy into this, is the physical health implications of your attachment style, um, that in securely attached people, both anxious and avoidant more likely s- than secure people to suffer from mental health issues. Anxiously a- a- a- anxiously attached people have the highest rates of mental health issues. Um, a- avoidant attachment, avoidantly attached, somewhere between secure and anxious, and then secure people have the best mental health. Physical health, right? Because avoidant people don't access their emotion, it manifests physically. So if you're avoidantly attached and you're experiencing migraines, headaches, you don't know where you ca-, where they came from, gastrointestinal issues, stomach ulcers, and there's like really no... You don't... You have no idea where this is coming from, and you're like, "What is happening to my bo-, like, why am I in chronic pain?" Right? Like, that's connected to emotional suppression and not releasing your emotions. Um, so that is my, my last plug for finding secure attachment is your hea-, your health really, like your physical health and y- how long you live. Um, that's in part predicted by your ability to reconnect to human connection.

   20. MRMel Robbins40:32

       One other thing I would love to add, um, i- in my own experience and then you can talk about it, Dr. Franco, clinically, is just seeing that my husband is now very clear that he was not only suppressing his emotions, he was numbing them with a daily weed and alcohol habit.

   21. MFDr. Marisa Franco40:52

       Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, you will definitely see that.

   22. MRMel Robbins40:57

       And so what do you... What's the first thing to do? Because the North Star here, everybody, is to become securely attached. Not only because of the mental health, but the physical health and just the fact that it's gonna impact the quality of the life that you're living and how you feel as you live that life. And you deserve that. So what's the first thing that somebody that is just realizing, "I think I might have an avoidant attachment style," should do today?

   23. MFDr. Marisa Franco41:26

       Yeah. So the avoidant attached person, we, our goal is to help them reconnect with their feelings, reconnect with self-expression, basically find their most authentic self instead of pushing it away all the time. So, you know, clinically that might start very simply with being like, "What sensations do you feel in your body? Is there a tingling sensation anywhere? Is there pressure on your chest? Is there a lump in your throat? Are you feeling like a headache?" Um, asking them, you know, what sensations are you feeling in their body. And then you present them... You can kind of Google the feelings wheel or put it in the show notes or something-

   24. MRMel Robbins42:11

       Hmm.

   25. MFDr. Marisa Franco42:11

       ... with this, this wheel of feelings where they can choose from all of these different feelings that they might, they might feel comfortable labeling the sensation that's going on in their body with a certain feeling that's on this feelings wheel. So what feeling would you choose here if...... that represents the sensation that's happening in your body. So, it's sort of like a, it's- it's sort of like a language. Like, it's kinda like learning a new language, and it's a practice of being able to, throughout the day, reflect and ask yourself, "Okay, like, what is it that I'm feeling right now? Here's a list of feelings. Which of them, when I go through this list, feel like they might resonate with me? Which of them stir something in me?" And then I think we can encourage, like, avoidantly attached people to literally do anything self-expressive, anything self-expressive. So, would you journal? Do you wanna make art? Um, do you want to sing? And I'm saying this, and I'm like, "I don't know if an avoidantly attached person's gonna buy in," but...

   26. MRMel Robbins43:16

       (laughs)

   27. MFDr. Marisa Franco43:16

       (laughs) Anything that, in your mind, is self-expressive to you. It could be origami. (laughs) What does this o- origami piece mean about, um, your own experience that you're going through right now? I think that, um, is also really, really important for that reconnecting with the feelings process. I also think, if you're avoidantly attached, there might be one person in your life where you're less avoidant with them-

   28. MRMel Robbins43:43

       Mm.

   29. MFDr. Marisa Franco43:44

       ... because of how safe they make you feel. So, could you be a little bit-

   30. MRMel Robbins43:49

       Is there another word for safe, Dr. Franco? So, you know, if somebody's kinda new to clinical or therapeutic language, um, and you're avoidant or disorganized but there is that one person.
8. 52:29 – 55:37

   Why knowing your attachment style is so important

   1. MFDr. Marisa Franco52:29

   2. MRMel Robbins52:29

      One of the things that I love (clears throat) about learning about attachment styles is it feels like it's another lens or framework through which you can view your relationships and not make them so personal. You know what I mean?

   3. MFDr. Marisa Franco52:44

      Yeah.

   4. MRMel Robbins52:44

      Like, we tend to look at w- the way that other people behave as a direct reflection of us. And as I listen and try to absorb everything that you're saying, Dr. Franco, I'm learning more and more that a lot of times the way somebody reacts, particularly in stressful situations or situations where they feel triggered, has nothing to do with you and everything to do with their own internal wiring.

   5. MFDr. Marisa Franco53:12

      Exactly, because what's happening in our body is more compelling to us than what's happening in the world, which means that if you're telling me even very kindly and politely that, like, "Hey, you know, you hurt me," and my body's suddenly on fire, and I'm feeling like I'm a failure, and I'm feeling so overwhelmed, right? Like, it doesn't matter that you a- approached me very kindly and sensitively. What I'm gonna respond to is the fire that's happening in my body, right?

   6. MRMel Robbins53:40

      Hmm.

   7. MFDr. Marisa Franco53:40

      Like, that, and that's even what I'm going to remember about the experience more so than, you know, how you approach me and the realities of the external circumstance. And that's why attachment style is so tricky, right? Because there's all these signs for all of us that people are loving us on any given day. People are smiling at you. People are holding the door for you. Cars are stopping when you wanna cross the street. People are texting you to check in. People are liking your Instagram page, right? But, you know, if your attachment style says people don't love you, you're not gonna read and take in any of that, right? It's, it's like, it's n- wh- how we're impacted by our relationships is, is less about... Well, I can't say less about, but it's not just about what's actually happening, and it's so much about how we're interpreting what's happening, and that interpretation process is our attachment style. It's our interpretation of what's happening with the, what's happening in the objective world refracted through our lens of our attachment style. And so that, that is why it can get so tricky to get out of your attachment style 'cause you see in the world all the things that match your reality, right? Like, the avoidantly attached people thinks people are untrustworthy, and you're trying to show up for them so much and be reliable. One time, something else happens and you're not able to be, be reliable to them, right? And all of a sudden, they're like, "Oh."It's true, you can't trust people, they're all gonna betray you, right? And it's like, "That person's just being human." (laughs) You have to let people be human. Um, so that's why, like, there's just this huge confirmation bias when it comes with to attachment style that can make it very hard to, to get out of, and why it's so helpful for me personally, and I think for everybody, to learn about and understand our attachment style. To understand our lens, to understand that it is a lens, and it's not just the objective reality of the situation, because through that understanding, we can, we can change.

9. 55:37 – 57:27

   Do certain Attachment Styles attract other Attachment Styles?

   1. MRMel Robbins55:37

      I am curious, do attachment styles attract opposites or the same types? I mean, how does that work? 'Cause I often hear people going, "I just keep dating the same loser over and o-" You know what I'm saying?

   2. MFDr. Marisa Franco55:48

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins55:48

      Like, I-

   4. MFDr. Marisa Franco55:48

      Yeah.

   5. MRMel Robbins55:48

      "Why do I always get people that are emotionally unavailable?"

   6. MFDr. Marisa Franco55:51

      (laughs) Yeah. So let's think about it, right? You're, you're dating someone and they're hot and cold, and all of a sudden they pull away and they don't answer your texts when they say that they will. And if you're secure, right, you're like, "Bye." Like-

   7. MRMel Robbins56:10

      (laughs)

   8. MFDr. Marisa Franco56:10

      ... "I feel happy about myself. If you're not gonna treat me in a way that reflects that, I'm gonna find someone else who does," right? Like, they're not willing to endure pain for the sake of being in a relationship. So who is gonna end up with a more avoidantly attached person is the person that's like, "I am enthralled by your inconsistency and I have to get you to like me now. And that's my purpose and my journey. And in some ways, the highs and the lows really excite me," right? Like, the anxiously attached person is going to be more likely to put up with some of the intimacy quirks of the avoidant attachment per- avoidantly attached person, right? Because again, the anxiously attached person's kind of willing to sacrifice their own sense of self to be in a relationship. The securely attached person is not. So i- so anxiously- avoidantly attached people often need anxiously attached people as the glue that will kind of keep them in relationship-

   9. MRMel Robbins57:01

      Hmm.

   10. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:01

       ... to each other. So that's why we see a lot of anxiously and avoidantly attached pairings. And you hear a lot of anxiously attached people that are like, "I, I need to earn their love. If they give it freely, I, you know, I'm not attracted to that." Or if someone's totally secure and available, they're like, "Just not feeling it," right? 'Cause they, they confuse them being triggered with them being in love. They confuse-

   11. MRMel Robbins57:24

       Oh, can we talk about that?

   12. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:26

       Yeah. Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins57:26

       Confusing being

10. 57:27 – 1:02:30

    Are you triggered or are you in love?

    1. MRMel Robbins57:27

       triggered with being in love. Dr. Franco-

    2. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:30

       Yeah.

    3. MRMel Robbins57:30

       ... let's unpack this.

    4. MFDr. Marisa Franco57:31

       Yeah. So, so if you're anxiously attached and you're triggered, someone's triggering your wounds of abandonment and you're feeling high arousal because of that, you're feeling very strong emotions because you're feeling triggered and wounded. It's like hurt. Hurt is like a high arousal emotion and so is excitement and so is thrill, right? And so it can be easy to feel like, "I like this person because they're making me feel high arousal," which is high arousal's present in pain, high arousal's present in excitement. And so you're being, um, pulled in. You know, it's funny, when I was like more anxiously attached to people, it'd be like I would wanna be with this person until they'd wanna be with me, and then I'd feel like, "Oh, and now I'm less excited (laughs) for some reason," right? And that's a sign that, oh, I was being pulled in by this wound of abandonment that they were triggering that made me want to find my sense of self again through getting them to like me. It was like I was trying to get my sense of self through being in the relationship with this avoidant person. Um, but, you know, in finding more security, it's more like, "I don't like feeling triggered. I don't like feeling like someone's gonna abandon me and they're not gonna show up for me." I no longer feel like that's sexy or enthralling because I have a more positive sense of myself and I look for relationships that reflect my own positive sense of myself and I'm... An secure person is, like, on their own side and they're wanting to take care of themselves and make themselves feel safe, right? And so they're attracted to places that make them feel grounded and make them feel safe in that way.

    5. MRMel Robbins59:13

       Let's put the, uh, shoe on the other foot and talk about that same trigger versus love from an avoidant attachment person. What would they be feeling in terms of how they collapse, you know, a situation that's triggering with love?

    6. MFDr. Marisa Franco59:31

       So (laughs) here's the confusing thing about attachment. When you're falling in love, it can sometimes replace your attachment style a bit. So you ma- it may take you a year to kind of figure out what someone's attachment style is. Like, everything can be going great and you're connecting and there's a lot of intimacy building, and then a year in, once you start living together, you're just like, "Who is this person?" Like, all of a sudden they're so closed off. All of a sudden they're so demanding of me. Like, "What the heck happened?" It's because, like, all of the, like, chemicals that are released, this cocktail of chemicals when you're falling in love can be so powerful that they might replace some of your underlying wounds and triggers and make you feel-

    7. MRMel Robbins1:00:14

       Mm.

    8. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:00:14

       ... pulled into this relationship, even when you're afraid of intimacy. Uh, so you can carry both of those things at the same time. So sometimes you'll see, like, people feeling secure with each other for a year when there's all of this cocktail of emotions, avoidantly attached people feeling comfortable with connection and intimacy, right? And then after a year or after some time, all of a sudden those avoidant feelings come up and all of a sudden they're like, "I wanna get out of this." All of a sudden they're like, "I need to pull away." All of a sudden they're like, "I feel really suffocated." You know, all of a sudden they're like, "My partner expects too much out of me." And so that, that is the really confusing thing. That's why it's so, like, hard and (cries) . Pat on the back to all of us who are just able to sustain (laughs) healthy relationships because it's so, it's so, so, so hard. Um, but I think... So I think that's, you know, what, what we can kind of tend to see and, and I think the avoidant person-... their template for intimacy is that people aren't gonna respect their boundaries, is that, you know, they can't necessarily trust people. So when the anxiously attached person is, like, pushing too much or not respecting their boundaries and demanding a lot from them-

    9. MRMel Robbins1:01:25

       Ahem.

    10. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:01:25

        ... again, they, that's part of their template for intimacy. It's not that someone's gonna be loving and, you know, hear them out and take their perspective into consideration. So, so in that way, the insecurely a- the insecure attachment, it kind of fine-tunes our expectations in relationships so that insecurely attached people, because their expectations of others are that other people will relate to them in an ins- insecurely attached way, they're more willing to accept when someone does so in their life.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:02:00

        Mm. Mm.

    12. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:02:00

        Whereas the securely attached person, 'cause their expectations of others is that, "You're gonna treat me nicely. You're gonna be loving towards me. You're gonna be accepting of me. You're gonna be kind toward me," when people aren't that way, they're like, "This isn't good for me, and this isn't a good fit for me."

    13. MRMel Robbins1:02:13

        It's, uh, interesting 'cause as you're talking, I'm also thinking, boy, you see this play out in friendships too all the time, which is, of course, you know, what your book is about, that, you know, people collect best friends, best friends, and then all of a sudden, within a year, now they're collecting a new best friend, and the other one-

    14. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:02:28

        Yep.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:02:28

        ... sort of faded away. So

11. 1:02:30 – 1:12:50

    Tools: How to build a Secure Attachment TODAY

    1. MRMel Robbins1:02:30

       let's end by talking about secure attachment.

    2. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:02:34

       Yeah.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:02:34

       And what are some simple takeaways? You've already given us one, which is to start to notice how you're feeling.

    4. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:02:43

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:02:44

       And you've talked about giving yourself the assurance and the kinda love and comfort that you need, but what are some other tools that people can use starting today to, to begin the process of building a secure attachment with themselves?

    6. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:04

       Find securely attached people. (laughs)

    7. MRMel Robbins1:03:07

       Okay, how-

    8. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:07

       Build relationships.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:03:07

       Where the hell are they hiding-

    10. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:08

        (laughs)

    11. MRMel Robbins1:03:08

        ... Dr. Franco? And your schedule's very busy, so I know you don't have time to hang out with us.

    12. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:13

        (laughs) Um, yeah.

    13. MRMel Robbins1:03:16

        How do you know it's a s- how do you know a securely attached person? Like, let's just scan a room. What am I looking for?

    14. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:03:23

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's gonna, I think, take a little while for it to reveal itself, but like, is this person being vulnerable with you, but not oversharing, which is a, a nuance that's kind of hard to, to interpret or to understand, right? Like, I don't know, are they sharing their life stories with you, their whole life story and their deep-seated trauma th- on the first day? Or are they, like, sharing why the day was hard, they had a struggle today, right? That's, that's the sort of appropriate vulnerability that we see in the securely attached person. The securely attached person is more loving towards you. They're affectionate towards you. They tell you how great that you are. Um, if you bring up an issue with them, and you're like, "Yeah, I'd love to hear from you more. Your friendship's so important to me." They're like, "Yeah, I'm gonna try to make you feel more loved," right? They're responsive to your needs. They don't try to shut your needs down (laughs) or tell you that you're, you know, wrong. Um, the securely attached people has a positive view on others, right? They, if you hear things like, "Nobody can be trusted," or, "Everybody's gonna abandon you," that's a sign of more insecurely attached people, but the secure person is, I don't know, they see the best in people. Um, if you hear them talk about some of their past relationships that didn't work, again, there's that nuance that, "Yeah, this part was good, but this part I really struggled with." They just have more empathy for people, to be honest. Um, that is something that's linked to secure attachment, empathy, authenticity. You feel as if they're telling you, like, there's this way that I think inauthenticity can manifest as there's this uncomfortable feeling, and instead of myself feeling it, I'm now gonna engage in this defense mechanism. I'm not gonna talk about how I'm so much better than everyone 'cause that person made me feel inferior. The secure person will just say, "That person made me feel inferior," instead of being like, "And I don't even care about them. These are all the reasons why, like, I'm so much better than them anyway," right? There, there's this sense that you're getting, you're hanging out with someone that's kind of more authentic. I don't know. They also just make your nervous system feel calmer, so you're just gonna feel-

    15. MRMel Robbins1:05:14

        Mm.

    16. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:05:14

        ... a little bit more calm in their company. So those are some signs that you've, like, found a secure person, and the secure person, whether in friendship or in romantic relationship, what's gonna happen is, like, they're gonna keep treating you in a way that's counter to this internalized set of assumptions that you have, this internalized template. And over time, your template is gonna be, start to mold and change because they're giving you evidence that your template isn't necessarily correct. Um-

    17. MRMel Robbins1:05:42

        Wow.

    18. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:05:43

        ... so that's awesome. (laughs) We all want that.

    19. MRMel Robbins1:05:45

        I love that.

    20. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:05:46

        Yeah.

    21. MRMel Robbins1:05:46

        And is there anything that, in the meantime, you could add as a habit or something to do every day-

    22. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:05:54

        Mm-hmm.

    23. MRMel Robbins1:05:54

        ... that would help you to start to reconnect and build that connection with yourself while you're scanning the world for more secure people to bring into your life?

    24. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:06:04

        Yeah, I want you to savor a moment of acceptance that you experience every day because insecurely attached people, what they're, they struggle with is feeling safe in relationships, no matter what that relationship is. They're coming to the ga- they're coming into the game with the baggage of this is not safe in different ways, right? So if you're insecurely attached and something happened for you today that made you feel accepted, I want you to write it down. I want you to focus on it. I want you to think about it until you feel some emotion, you feel the acceptance, you feel, you know, the love within your body. Um, you have to be able to savor and receive those experiences of safety and acceptance that, as an insecurely attached person, you'd usually just ignore and usually not even register.

    25. MRMel Robbins1:06:52

        So can I see if some of these are examples? So, like, when a friend comes over for dinner, and they bring cinnamon rolls.

    26. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:00

        Yeah.

    27. MRMel Robbins1:07:01

        Knowing that they brought you something, a small gesture like that, acknowledging that that is a moment, that's something like that?

    28. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:10

        Absolutely, but it can even be so small as, like, "Oh, my friend sent me a voice note today. They care about me," or, "My friend commented on my picture that they like it." Like, l- like, practice, make it a practice to receive love. Like, that's really-

    29. MRMel Robbins1:07:23

        Mm.

    30. MFDr. Marisa Franco1:07:23

        ... what I'm getting at here. Um, receiving love is not easy. Um, it's something that we need to practice.

Episode duration: 1:12:50