Change Your Life This Year: How to Get From Where You Are to Where You Want to Be

1. 0:00 – 4:17

   Meet the Guest

   1. KMKaty Milkman0:00

      Most people that are trying to create change, they approach it with a one-size-fits-all mentality. A lot of people aren't thinking intentionally about engineering when they have a goal. That is the number one most important thing that all of us get wrong. Learning how to change is a skill, just like using an Excel spreadsheet is a skill. It doesn't just take willpower, or grit, or fortitude. It takes strategy.

   2. MRMel Robbins0:27

      Professor Milkman is an award-winning behavioral scientist and an endowed professor at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania, and today she's here to help you remove the seven hidden barriers that are currently keeping you from getting what you want.

   3. KMKaty Milkman0:43

      We all have the same barriers.

   4. MRMel Robbins0:45

      What are they?

   5. KMKaty Milkman0:45

      Well, the first is ... It almost seems crazy that all of us have the wrong mental model, but, but almost all of us have the wrong mental model of thinking. "No, no, no, no. There's something wrong with me if I can't do hard things. I just have to push through." I think the biggest lie is that you should just work harder, or use your willpower, and that there's something wrong with you if you can't push through the pain and achieve this challenging goal. And the truth is ...

   6. MRMel Robbins1:13

      Professor Katy Milkman, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

   7. KMKaty Milkman1:17

      Thanks for having me.

   8. MRMel Robbins1:18

      Um, I really appreciate you making the time. I've been a fan of your work for over a decade, and I lo- love that we're gonna get this chance to dig into research that helps you change your life. It's informed some of the biggest books on habits on the planet, and now we have the OG with us in person. I wanna start, uh, Professor Milkman, by talking about, how could my life be different if I take everything you're about to teach us, the research you're about to explain, and I apply it to my life? What's gonna change?

   9. KMKaty Milkman1:52

      Every single person has a goal. You have a goal that you want to achieve right now. Even if you haven't articulated it, there's some aspect of your life that you want to improve, you wanna get better. And there's also probably people you care about who you wanna help improve. And there's a lot of science that you can use to get there faster and with higher probability. But most of us, when we have that goal, we, and when we have someone we care about who we wanna help achieve a goal, we're just shooting from our head. We are not basing our strategies on evidence. And what I hope to share today is a set of tools you can use immediately to make it easier to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve, and to help other people do the same, whether that's getting in shape, whether that's getting your finances in order, whether it's getting a promotion at work. Whatever that goal is you're trying to tackle, we actually have evidence-based tools to help. So, hopefully by the end of this episode, you'll have learned and grown a lot in ways that will allow you to be a stronger version as you approach a new goal.

   10. MRMel Robbins2:58

       You know what I'm excited about?

   11. KMKaty Milkman3:00

       (laughs)

   12. MRMel Robbins3:00

       I feel very optimistic all of a sudden because you're here.

   13. KMKaty Milkman3:03

       (laughs)

   14. MRMel Robbins3:04

       Uh, no, I mean that. I mean that sincerely, because I think a lot of us have that experience of really wanting to change, and I appreciate you validating that inside each and every one of us is a desire to feel better and do better, and we not only want it for ourselves, we want it for the people that we care about. And so before I ask you my next question, I just wanna speak to you as you're listening or as you're watching us on YouTube, because everything that you're about to learn, the research that Professor Milkman's gonna unpack, the evidence-based strategies, they're universal to all of us. But I want to make this personal as you listen or watch, and so I do want you to think, what is the goal? What is the change? Is it saving money? Is it eating healthier? Is it exercising more? Is it losing weight? Is it spending more time with family and friends? Is it quitting smoking, or vaping, or drinking, spending less money, getting a better job? Think about what you wanna change for the better, because if you have that in mind, you can apply all this evidence and all this research to every single goal you might have in life. So, I just invite you to do that, because it's gonna make this way more impactful for you.

2. 4:17 – 7:30

   What You Get Wrong About Making Change Stick

   1. MRMel Robbins4:17

      You know, Professor Milkman, you have spent your entire career not only studying, researching, writing, and teaching about why change is so hard. What is the biggest lie that we've been told about change?

   2. KMKaty Milkman4:29

      I think the biggest lie is that you should just work harder, or use your willpower, and that there's something wrong with you if you can't push through the pain and achieve this challenging goal. And the truth is, that's not the key to change. It's not that you lack something inside you and that's the reason that you can't do it. It's actually normally that you haven't set up the right strategies, you don't have the right support systems. There's not something broken in you. And if you blame the way you're designed, and you say, "You know, I, I don't have the willpower to make this change," or, "I just, you know, there's something wrong with me and I can't do it-"

   3. MRMel Robbins5:10

      Hmm.

   4. KMKaty Milkman5:10

      ... um, you're setting yoursel- self up to fail. It doesn't just take willpower, or grit, or fortitude. It takes strategy, and it takes understanding how do you set yourself up for success despite the fact that doing hard things is hard (laughs) . You have to change it so that doing hard things becomes easy, because no one's good at doing hard things. So we have to make it enjoyable. We have to make it memorable. We have to make it social. We have to bring to bear all the best evidence to strategically overcome these challenges, and we can use the tools that are gonna lead us to success instead of to failure.

   5. MRMel Robbins5:48

      Well, what I love about where you're starting is, I think most of us, when we have a big goal, and we really wanna change, but we can't seem to figure out how to make the change stick or how to change at all, what I'm starting to get, which I think is a brand-new idea for me...... is that based on the evidence, and based on the research that you're about to share with us, and based on the strategies you're going to teach us, that learning how to change is a skill.

   6. KMKaty Milkman6:21

      Absolutely.

   7. MRMel Robbins6:21

      A-

   8. KMKaty Milkman6:21

      Learning how to change is a skill, just like using an Excel spreadsheet is a skill. And you can master that skill, and you can learn what it takes. And i- importantly, once you learn it, it has dual functions. Not only does it actually help you achieve more, you can use those insights to help all the people you care about. So-

   9. MRMel Robbins6:41

      Oh, I love that.

   10. KMKaty Milkman6:42

       ... it's sort of a magic skill, in my opinion. And th- that's why I like to study it and, and share the science, because it has so many benefits.

   11. MRMel Robbins6:48

       So the same things that you're gonna teach us that we need to do so we can save money, and stop drinking, and spend more time with friends, and lose weight, do all the things that we wanna do in life, we can give these same tools to everybody in our lives?

   12. KMKaty Milkman7:00

       Whoever you coach-

   13. MRMel Robbins7:01

       Oh my gosh, I love this.

   14. KMKaty Milkman7:02

       ... who you parent, who you teach, who you mentor, everyone needs the same things. When constantly getting questions like, "Oh, but does this strategy work for women in their 80s?" And, you know, "Does this work in India?" Like, yes. I- it really does. These, the things we're gonna talk about, the barriers, they're human. We're all human. We're human no matter our age, our gender, our race. We all have the same barriers, and we can all therefore benefit from the same tools.

3. 7:30 – 12:31

   The 7 Barriers to Change

   1. MRMel Robbins7:30

      Professor Milkman, through your extensive research, you have identified that there are these seven barriers to change. How did you discover them, and what are they?

   2. KMKaty Milkman7:40

      So, I've been studying behavior change for roughly 20 years. I run a research center at the University of Pennsylvania called the Behavior Change for Good Initiative. And in doing my work, one of the things I noticed is that most people and organizations that are trying to create change, they approach it with a one-size-fits-all mentality.

   3. MRMel Robbins8:03

      Hm.

   4. KMKaty Milkman8:04

      Sort of, you know, let's set big, audacious goals. Let's visualize success. Let's, you know, coach people towards the change they need. And often, that wasn't clicking, and one of the things I, I started to notice was that it seemed really critical before taking that step, just like a doctor would try to diagnose, uh, you know, when a patient comes in with a headache, what's causing the headache before coming up with a cure, we need to do the same for behavior change. We need to understand it to treat it properly. And so, um, that led to sort of starting to dig and say, "What are the kinds of barriers that are consistently arising that seem to be holding people back as they're trying to make change?" And I have 180 scientists associated with this research center that I co-direct with Angela Duckworth at the University of Pennsylvania. Th- these are not my seven barriers. These are really the barriers that the field has unearthed, that all of these scientists with all different backgrounds studying change had been building over a long time period, and that I'd been contributing to as well. Synthesizing that and recognizing we need, in order to be able to offer solutions, we need to diagnose what's the specific barrier. And, and we see much better results when we're tackling the barrier that is actually underlying the problem than when we try these sort of universal solutions.

   5. MRMel Robbins9:24

      I love this, because if you start with the premise that the person listening, or me, or anybody has a desire to change. Like, you earnestly want to feel healthier, you wanna make more money, you wanna lose weight, you wanna save money, you want to spend more time with your family and friends. So you have this authentic desire, but then all of a sudden, everything just falls apart. And so I love that through all this research, you've identified that there are seven barriers that we probably don't even realize are there that are preventing us from doing the things that would make the change that we so desperately want possible. So what are the seven barriers, based on research, to our ability to change?

   6. KMKaty Milkman10:14

      Well, the first is the challenge of just getting started. You have to begin. Uh, after that, impulsivity, which is our tendency to want things to feel instantly gratifying. Then we have procrastination, putting it off. Why do today what I could put off until tomorrow? Forgetfulness. If it's not top of mind, I'm not gonna follow through. So we need to make sure that we remember forgetting. Um, laziness, which sounds like an insult, but really is a compliment, because it's good to take the path of least resistance. It's great that we're lazy, but it can be a barrier when you wanna change, that you're wired to prefer sh- shortcuts and easy solutions. And then confidence. If you don't believe that you can make a change, then it's gonna be really hard to convince yourself to follow through. And then finally, conformity is another barrier to change. The people around me, I look at what they do, and, and I believe that's all that's possible for me.

   7. MRMel Robbins11:07

      Hm.

   8. KMKaty Milkman11:07

      And so I conform to those norms, and, and that can be a barrier if it's not, uh, if conformity is not ch- shaping me to make the changes I wanna make.

   9. MRMel Robbins11:16

      What I love about this is you're providing us a framework so that we can understand the way that we operate, and then figure out workarounds. And so you talked about not getting started, impulsivity, procrastination, forgetfulness, laziness, which is basically having to deal with the habits you already have, and your automatic behaviors and the shortcuts you already take, lack of confidence, and that discouragement that it's not gonna work, and then conformity. Um, what was interesting for me as you were going through it, and I'm sure as you were listening or watching on (laughs) YouTube, you probably were like, "Oh, that's my problem. Oh, that's right. Oh, I don't have a problem with that, but I got a problem with that one." And for me, it was like impulsivity, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.

   10. KMKaty Milkman12:01

       (laughs)

   11. MRMel Robbins12:01

       Forgetfulness, that is the bane of my existence. It's important to me, but oh my God. And so I wanna go, though, step by step and talk about what the research says...... around each one of these seven. Because whatever goal you have, whether it's saving money, or it's finding a new job, or it's, uh, meeting somebody and falling in love, or losing weight, all of these things, you're gonna come up against one of these seven internal barriers-

   12. KMKaty Milkman12:29

       Or more than one. (laughs)

   13. MRMel Robbins12:30

       Or more than one.

4. 12:31 – 23:02

   The Fresh Start Effect

   1. MRMel Robbins12:31

      Well, let's dig into the first one, which I think is something we all struggle with sometimes, which is just this barrier of just getting started.

   2. KMKaty Milkman12:39

      That's a big barrier for a lot of us, is, "I know I should do it, I know I should do it, but, but when will I do it?" I think the fresh start effect is the best tool we have-

   3. MRMel Robbins12:48

      Okay.

   4. KMKaty Milkman12:49

      ... for motivating a new beginning, for motivating us to start. There are other tools we're gonna talk about that you can also leverage that'll give you a little extra kick to motivate you-

   5. MRMel Robbins13:01

      Oh.

   6. KMKaty Milkman13:01

      ... to begin. Um, but when I think about what's the best match, scientific tool, that can help us get going when we have been struggling to start, fresh starts are the one.

   7. MRMel Robbins13:14

      Can you break down your research and explain what the fresh start effect is?

   8. KMKaty Milkman13:20

      I would love to. This is one of my favorite things I've ever studied. And, uh, I should say, the lead author is my former student, Hengchen Dai. She's brilliant UCLA professor. And I should actually back up, 'cause I think the story of how this came about is kind of fun. I visited, um, Google's headquarters in Mountain View, California, I don't know, 15 years ago, roughly, at this point, and I was at a big workshop with lots of people, uh, talking about their HR operations. They were looking for ways to help their employees take advantage of programs like, you know, new educational trainings that they were offering, their gyms that were available, these kinds of things, right? All the employee benefits that they know improve performance-

   9. MRMel Robbins13:59

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KMKaty Milkman13:59

       ... but that a lot of people are not using. And I got this amazing question. The question was, "Okay, Katy, we are completely convinced that we should be using behavioral science tools to encourage adoption in all the ways that you've laid out, but is there some ideal moment when our employees are gonna be most open to making a change and adopting these tools that we have waiting at the ready?" Understanding when it is that all of us are most open to making a change can be really valuable. So, that's what started the work. We got really interested in the idea that there are moments when people are more motivated to make a change than others, that this is something that waxes and wanes. But we wanted to understand if there was something systematic about when it is-

   11. MRMel Robbins14:42

       Huh.

   12. KMKaty Milkman14:42

       ... that people are most motivated. And, um, the first thought bubble I had, which I suspect some of you who are listening are also thinking about, is, "Well, New Year's is kind of a, a special moment," right?

   13. MRMel Robbins14:54

       Yeah.

   14. KMKaty Milkman14:54

       We know actually that 40% of Americans, and this is a global phenomenon, but in America, it's 40% of us make New Year's resolutions. We say at the beginning of the new year, "We're gonna do something different in our lives. We're gonna make some positive change." And okay, fine, that's one moment, but what I got interested in and started talking to Hengchen about when I came back to my office after that trip was, "What is that a microcosm of? Like, there must be other moments too. What is it about New Year's, and where else can we find that magic fairy dust and sprinkle it on people that gives you this sense of a fresh start?" And so, we started reading and learning, and what we learned is there's this whole literature on something called autobiographical memory. And, uh, what it teaches us is that the way we think about our lives is not linear. We actually look back on our lives like we are characters in a, a novel, and that there are chapter breaks in our lives, uh, that separate the way we think about who we were, who we will be, um, and those chapter breaks arise at predictable moments. So, you can think about big chapter breaks. Uh, big chapter breaks would be something like, you know, you started this podcast, or, uh, you started a new job, or you moved to a new city. Uh, maybe you started a new relationship. By the way, positive and negative chapter breaks in our lives. And when we bookend those chapters, what we do is we feel like we're making a major transition, and, and a new chapter that we open is a new beginning to us.

   15. MRMel Robbins16:22

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KMKaty Milkman16:22

       We feel more separated from who we were before. "Before I moved to Boston, before I, uh, took this job at company XYZ, before I got that promotion, that was the old me, and I feel this is the new me now-"

   17. MRMel Robbins16:36

       Hmm.

   18. KMKaty Milkman16:36

       "... at that chapter break." That's what's happening on New Year's. We feel, "Okay, last year is over. I'm chapter breaking that. That was the old me who didn't get in shape, who, you know, didn't make the promotion at work, but this year's gonna be different, and we can set the old me aside and move on and say, 'I'm gonna be optimistic and different this time,' because of that chapter break." And what we learned in our research is those chapter breaks arise actually a lot more frequently than maybe we would perceive. There's the big ones that I just talked about, those big life transitions that are really relatable, but actually, we see little mini chapter breaks every Monday.

   19. MRMel Robbins17:10

       Every Monday?

   20. KMKaty Milkman17:11

       Every Monday is a fresh start. Every, uh, every month, the celebration of every birthday, uh, dates like the start of spring, Labor Day, Memorial Day, and it depends on, uh, you know, what your culture and customs are, but there are these moments that demarcate time and give us a sense of a new beginning, and they're incredibly frequent. People are naturally gravitating towards these moments that feel like fresh starts in order to make change.

   21. MRMel Robbins17:38

       Like, uh, from a common sense standpoint, I can kind of try to make sense of it, 'cause I'm like, "Well, I remember my birthday, and it feels like a big thing. Three months from now feels kind of generic." But in terms of what's actually going on in your brain, why does a Monday-... or a birthday, or the first day of school, or an anniversary? Why do these things create this psychological thing called a fresh start effect?

   22. KMKaty Milkman18:07

       Yeah. Well, there's two things-

   23. MRMel Robbins18:08

       Okay.

   24. KMKaty Milkman18:08

       ... that are happening. One is, at those moments, we tend to step back and think more big picture about our lives because they're break points.

   25. MRMel Robbins18:15

       Oh.

   26. KMKaty Milkman18:15

       Right? So the start of school, just think, you know, what's happening before the start of school for every, every kid and adult? You're like lying in bed the night before, thinking about this new beginning that's coming, what's it gonna be like? There's all this change that's already in the air. There's a, there's a shift point.

   27. MRMel Robbins18:32

       Mm.

   28. KMKaty Milkman18:32

       And that primes you to think about what else you wanna change. You're thinking big picture, not just head down doing it, the way you are in the third week of school, just trying to get through. You're really having those big picture thoughts about your goals. So that's part of it. But the other part is this true psychological distinction that arises at these moments. We literally feel like our identity is a little different because we've turned the page on a new chapter and we feel like we're goi- either we're going to be, if we're looking forward, a new person. You're like, "Yeah, after my 35th birthday, I will be ready to start saving. That is a good moment because, uh, that, that's gonna be a break point for me. I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a different me in my 35th year. I know I've got this." Right? So you can pin your hopes to that transition point that feels like it's coming or to the transition point you're feeling, right? The first day of the new year, you can say, "That was the old me. This is the new me." We don't think about time as one linear experience.

   29. MRMel Robbins19:26

       Mm.

   30. KMKaty Milkman19:26

       We bucket it. We have these buckets that we put time into (laughs) and we say, you know, "It's before New Year's and after New Year's." Those are... It's just a calendar. It's all made up. Every day is one day before or one day after another day. But that's not how we experience the world. It's a really different day when it's a new year. It's a different day when it's a Monday. It's a different day when the month changes. It's a different day when you get that promotion. That day feels different and unique from other days, and it makes you feel different and neu- unique, and like you have a new beginning and a fresh start, and some distance from what didn't go well before that makes you optimistic about what you can achieve.
5. 23:02 – 31:17

   How to Make New Habits Fun & Easy

   1. MRMel Robbins23:02

   2. KMKaty Milkman23:03

      This is one of my favorites. I think this is the one I struggle with the most. (laughs) Uh, you've heard, "If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger." There's a lot in the popular culture suggesting it's your problem and, and just work through it. What research shows is helpful for dealing with impulsivity is just changing the nature of whatever it is you need to do so that it is instantly gratifying. So-

   3. MRMel Robbins23:28

      Can you give me an example?

   4. KMKaty Milkman23:29

      Yes. (laughs) Yeah. So, imagine you wanna get in shape.

   5. MRMel Robbins23:34

      Okay.

   6. KMKaty Milkman23:35

      And there are two paths that you could take. One path would be, go to the gym and look for the most efficient exercise you can do in 30 minutes to burn calories and make your body thinner. Maybe it's like the maximally punishing StairMaster. That's the one. Okay. There's another strategy you could think about though. Instead of going for efficiency when you go to the gym, you could think...... "What am I gonna enjoy most while I'm here that's gonna move my body?" And maybe you sign up for a Zumba class with a friend. And I want to note, okay, it's a little less efficient if you go to the Zumba class probably per calorie, per goal you're trying to accomplish, but you like it. And what research shows is that most of us think the right thing to do is that effective, efficient path.

   7. MRMel Robbins24:19

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KMKaty Milkman24:19

      "I'm gonna get on the StairMaster." But we're wrong. There's really wonderful work by, uh, Cornell's Kaitlin Woolley and University of Chicago's Ayelet Fishbach showing that that is a mistake. When we instead nudge people to pursue their goals in a way they enjoy, like going to the Zumba class instead of getting on the maximally punishing StairMaster, suddenly they actually start enjoying what they're doing and they persist longer, which is what almost all of our goals are about. You're not going to get in shape in one workout. You need to keep coming back to the gym. You need to keep doing it. And so, find a way to make it fun to do the thing that you want to do in the long term to achieve your goals. I like to call it the Mary Poppins effect. Mary Poppins says, "A spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down." Greatest nanny of all time. And she's right about that, not just for kids, but for adults. We need to be looking for ways to make things that are good for us in the long run rewarding in the short run. Because we're present biased doesn't mean we can't achieve our long-term goals. We just have to change the way we're pursuing them so they're rewarding in the short run.

   9. MRMel Robbins25:24

      The research shows that if you can make it fun and easy, your own impulsive nature will actually stay focused (laughs) on the thing that's fun and easy, versus avoiding it because you made it too hard. Is that, is that a way to unpack that?

   10. KMKaty Milkman25:38

       It's beautiful. It sounds so obvious that it, it almost seems crazy that all of us have the wrong mental model, but, but almost all of us have the wrong mental model of thinking, "No, no, no, no. There's something wrong with me if I can't do hard things. I just have to push through." But actually, no, you just have to find a way to transform the hard thing. Which, P.S., it's not always possible, but it's often possible, and it's not our instinct to try to change the way we pursue these goals-

   11. MRMel Robbins26:04

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KMKaty Milkman26:05

       ... so that they are more instantly gratifying. And once you teach people that this is actually the way to be more successful and achieve more, a lot of really good things happen.

   13. MRMel Robbins26:14

       Are there other ones you wanna talk about right now that are related to impulsivity? Because, like, if you can't figure out how to make-

   14. KMKaty Milkman26:20

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins26:20

       ... filling out the application for financial aid fun-

   16. KMKaty Milkman26:23

       (laughs)

   17. MRMel Robbins26:24

       ... and you keep avoid-... You know what I'm saying?

   18. KMKaty Milkman26:25

       Yeah, yes. Absolutely.

   19. MRMel Robbins26:26

       Because you're distracted by your phone, or you're distracted-

   20. KMKaty Milkman26:28

       Yeah.

   21. MRMel Robbins26:28

       ... by this, or you're impulsive because you have this present bias and you want to move toward a thing that's fun now.

   22. KMKaty Milkman26:34

       Yeah. One of my favorites is a strategy I used in my own life and, and continue to use that I then turned into a science experiment. Um, it, it started... We're here in Boston. I was a graduate student here, and as a first-year graduate student, I knew I needed to move my body. I was a college athlete, and exercise is very important to my mental health. It's important to all of our mental health, let's be honest. But for me, it was, like, particularly critical as a stressed-out first-year graduate student. But at the end of a long day of classes, with problem sets waiting ahead of me, I found it really hard to motivate myself to go out into the Boston winter-

   23. MRMel Robbins27:08

       Oh, where it's dark-

   24. KMKaty Milkman27:09

       ... to the gym.

   25. MRMel Robbins27:09

       ... it's 4:00 in the afternoon.

   26. KMKaty Milkman27:11

       Exactly. (laughs) And, and, like, get to the gym and work out. So, what I really wanted to do was just curl up on my cozy couch-

   27. MRMel Robbins27:19

       (laughs) Yes.

   28. KMKaty Milkman27:20

       ... and I, I, like, I was really... I, I love reading. For a lot of people, they'll think, you know, binge-watch TV. I love that too. I was really into the Harry Potter novels at that time. They were fairly new. You know, I just wanted to sink into fiction-

   29. MRMel Robbins27:35

       Mm-hmm.

   30. KMKaty Milkman27:35

       ... and go to another place.
6. 31:17 – 36:53

   The Real Reason You Procrastinate

   1. MRMel Robbins31:17

      One of the barriers that you've identified that we have internally to changing is procrastination. What can we do to overcome that?

   2. KMKaty Milkman31:28

      That's a really hard one, but it's really related to what we've been talking about with impulsivity. So, procrastination is a, a problem for all of us because we want things to feel good right now, and so we'd rather delay until later the thing that is hard. Um, one solution is, think about this as having two sides, this equation. Like, I can either make it more enjoyable to do the hard thing, or I can make the penalty of not doing the hard thing greater. Think of it carrots and sticks.

   3. MRMel Robbins32:01

      Okay.

   4. KMKaty Milkman32:01

      So we've been focused on carrots, like let's change-

   5. MRMel Robbins32:03

      Yes, make it easy.

   6. KMKaty Milkman32:04

      Let's make it fun.

   7. MRMel Robbins32:05

      Let's bundle it with stuff that we like to do, like-

   8. KMKaty Milkman32:06

      That's the carrot solution.

   9. MRMel Robbins32:07

      Yes. Okay.

   10. KMKaty Milkman32:09

       Procrastination often works pretty well with the stick solution. We're used to other people helping us with sticks. Let me give you some examples. Your boss who gives you a deadline helps you get that work done, as opposed to letting the report take months and months.

   11. MRMel Robbins32:24

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KMKaty Milkman32:24

       That is good management. Someone has said, "Nope, it has to be due, I need it by this date. You've got to finish it. And if not, you know there's consequences for your performance review." Uh, another example of someone else helping us and constraining us with a stick would be something like, maybe you're tempted to speed on your way to work. Uh, you know, that would be instantly gratifying.

   13. MRMel Robbins32:47

       (laughs) .

   14. KMKaty Milkman32:47

       But you know that there is a, a police officer out there somewhere with a speed camera.

   15. MRMel Robbins32:53

       Right.

   16. KMKaty Milkman32:53

       Who ... And if you get caught, you're gonna get a ticket.

   17. MRMel Robbins32:56

       Yes.

   18. KMKaty Milkman32:56

       So there's a consequence, there's a stick-

   19. MRMel Robbins32:58

       Uh-huh. Got it.

   20. KMKaty Milkman32:58

       ... if you speed. So those are consequences that the, that other, you know, entities, like your, your boss, whatever, is taking care of.

   21. MRMel Robbins33:04

       Or your partner or your family or somebody.

   22. KMKaty Milkman33:07

       That's right. That's right.

   23. MRMel Robbins33:07

       Mom's gonna be mad, my partner's gonna be upset if I don't do this.

   24. KMKaty Milkman33:10

       Okay.

   25. MRMel Robbins33:10

       And so ... Got it, okay.

   26. KMKaty Milkman33:11

       So we're used to those other consequences.

   27. MRMel Robbins33:12

       Yes.

   28. KMKaty Milkman33:13

       We can do the same thing to ourselves, which sounds weird, but we can impose sticks on ourselves, and there's a whole lot of research showing this is helpful. So let me give you an- a very concrete example.

   29. MRMel Robbins33:22

       Okay.

   30. KMKaty Milkman33:23

       You can ... This is a weird one to start with, but I think the most powerful one. You can literally put money on the line that you agree you will forfeit if you fail to achieve a goal by a certain date, and you can choose a referee who will hold you accountable, and you are fining yourself for failure on that goal. Say you really want to meditate three times a week, it's important to you, but you're worried there's so many other things you're gonna procrastinate on actually doing.
7. 36:53 – 44:46

   How to Make Healthy Habits Automatic

   1. MRMel Robbins36:53

      Um, let's talk about forgetfulness. This is the bane of my existence.

   2. KMKaty Milkman36:58

      (laughs)

   3. MRMel Robbins36:58

      I will own that I probably have used this as an excuse or a crutch, but there are so many things in my life that I want to and I mean to make a priority, or I say I'm going to, and then (hand hits table) I just forget.

   4. KMKaty Milkman37:18

      We have a lot of confidence that we will remember things, because they feel important to us in the moment when we're thinking about them, right? You're lying in bed at night, and you're like, "I'll, oh, I definitely need to do that tomorrow, and it's so important, of course I'll remember." But economists call this an empathy gap. We don't understand who we'll be tomorrow. We don't know what it'll be like. We think, "Yeah, this will always be top of mind, 'cause it's top of mind and burning right now," but then you wake up, y- you know, you have your coffee, you get into the swing of your day, and even though it was really important, it's gone, right?

   5. MRMel Robbins37:48

      Yes.

   6. KMKaty Milkman37:48

      And, and there's this really interesting research from the 1800s on memory decay, uh, you know, within hours, 70% of something you try to memorize is gone. Like, we just lose information at a shockingly high rate.

   7. MRMel Robbins38:02

      And that was the 1800s.

   8. KMKaty Milkman38:03

      (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins38:03

      I mean, I can only imagine now.

   10. KMKaty Milkman38:05

       That's right. And there was not even social media distracting us at that point.

   11. MRMel Robbins38:07

       Well, Professor Milkman, I love what you say, that you don't fail because you don't care, you fail because you forget.

   12. KMKaty Milkman38:15

       So, we have to understand that forgetting is a barrier, and then there are structural changes we can make.

   13. MRMel Robbins38:20

       What are they?

   14. KMKaty Milkman38:21

       So, one that's actually gotten a fair amount of attention, though it's- it's maybe a little bygone, is a simple checklist. Let's just think about what surgeons do that makes them more effective. They have checklists in operating rooms so they don't forget to, you know, extract the tool (laughs) that otherwise would end up in your chest cavity, right? There are really, really important jobs where people create checklists and structures. Pilots have checklists. You can have checklists in your life as well, and you shouldn't feel bad about it. They're incredibly effective at improving our performance, but even a step less, uh, intense than a checklist is making really concrete and detailed plans. One thing that research has shown, and this is mostly work by Peter Gollwitzer of NYU, is that people are much more successful at achieving a goal when they make a concrete plan about when they'll do it, where they'll do it, how they'll get there, and I like to call them cue-based plans. There needs to be-

   15. MRMel Robbins39:17

       Cue-based plans?

   16. KMKaty Milkman39:18

       Yes.

   17. MRMel Robbins39:18

       Like the letter Q?

   18. KMKaty Milkman39:19

       No, like, like, your stage cue, right?

   19. MRMel Robbins39:22

       Oh.

   20. KMKaty Milkman39:22

       You've got to remember the cue to say your lines.

   21. MRMel Robbins39:24

       Okay, gotcha.

   22. KMKaty Milkman39:25

       Yeah.

   23. MRMel Robbins39:25

       Cue, what are the three things we're- we're writing on our cue-based plan?

   24. KMKaty Milkman39:29

       (laughs) So, ideally, first of all, you would need a cue in your cue-based plan, so the cue could be a point in time.

   25. MRMel Robbins39:35

       Okay.

   26. KMKaty Milkman39:35

       Like, when are you gonna do this thing? But the cue could be something else. Maybe you're not exactly sure when you're next going to pass by the pharmacy and be able to pick up the medication you need to grab, or, um, when you're going to have the next opportunity to talk to your daughter, who only calls every so often. And so, the cue can be, "If my daughter calls," or, "If I walk by the pharmacy." It doesn't have to be, "At 3:00 PM on Tuesday." So, the cue is some trigger that you're going to need to remind you, "This is when I enact the behavior."

   27. MRMel Robbins40:03

       Gotcha.

   28. KMKaty Milkman40:03

       So, the plan needs a cue.

   29. MRMel Robbins40:03

       So, when am I gonna do it? It's either, "If this happens, then," or, "Here's the time and the date I'm doing it."

   30. KMKaty Milkman40:09

       Exactly. So, um, when are you gonna do it? Where are you gonna do it? How are you gonna get there? Really simple. Get those plans in order, because if it's not planned out, if you don't actually have a cue that will trigger, "Oh, oh, it's noon. I said I would do this then," um, you're far less likely to follow through. And the way that we store memory is through these cues. That's what triggers our memory. So, cues are really critical. Um, the other thing that it does is, it- it creates a commitment that's no longer a vague intention. "Oh, yeah, I planned to go to the gym at some point this week. I planned to meditate at some point." Now, there's a specific point in time, and you are letting yourself down if you don't follow through at that point in time. You can no longer convince yourself, "Oh, later. Yes, later I'll get to it." So, it's, uh, it's creating that accountability for yourself if you push it off further that's also important. So, there's forgetting, there's an accountability component, um, and also, it can help you think through obstacles when you make these plans. So, I'm a parent, and if I haven't figured out who's gonna be taking care of my nine-year-old, I can't be at this other place, right? Uh, if I haven't figured out who's gonna take this meeting for me, I can't be at this other place. So, so, whatever it is that might be an obstacle, this planning process helps you ensure that it doesn't trip you up at the last minute before you get it out of the way. And it's a really simple tool you can use in your own life anytime there's something you're worried you might forget that's important to follow through on. Obviously, reminders are incredibly important, too. Be like, "Put it on your calendar. Send yourself, your future self, an email that's triggering that time." So, but sometimes, we literally can't have those elements there to remind us to at the right moment, and so in those cases, the cue, like, "When my daughter next calls, that's when I will do X, Y, Z," can be important as well.
8. 44:46 – 49:38

   Overcome Laziness and Build Better Habits

   1. MRMel Robbins44:46

      talk about laziness. This is one of the seven internal barriers to you being able to change. What does the research show, and what are some evidence-based strategies we can use to overcome bad habits that keep us from changing?

   2. KMKaty Milkman45:00

      Great. Okay, so, we want the easiest solution. We want the path of least resistance. So the first piece of advice, we don't even have to get to habits, the first piece of advice, we're gonna get to habits in a moment, is just make the easiest thing in your life, make the automatic thing that happens the thing that is good for you, whenever you can. So, you know, when you open your computer screen, you open your browser, does it take you to a social media website that you may not want to get sucked into? Or does it take you to learn about something interesting? Does it take you to the latest Mel Robbins podcast? (laughs) Where do you want it to take you? Think proactively about what you want the defaults in your life to be.

   3. MRMel Robbins45:36

      Mm-hmm.

   4. KMKaty Milkman45:36

      When you get a paycheck, does a portion of it automatically get transferred over to a savings account, so that you have to a- take no steps whatsoever and saving is happening? What are the defaults that you can set so that the lazy thing to do is something you like, that's, you know, keeping healthy snacks in the pantry, that's having a workout machine that's nearby? The further, by the way, you are from, uh, a- a resource, whether it's a- a gym where you wanna go exercise, or a health clinic where you wanna get health services, the less likely it is you're gonna show up and do that thing, because there's friction. Now you have distance-

   5. MRMel Robbins46:11

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KMKaty Milkman46:11

      ... holding you up. So, think about how do you create minimal friction between you and the good things you wanna do, and maximize the friction, make it far away, to do all the things that are bad. That's one way of taking advantage of laziness. The second part of laziness, though, is habit.

   7. MRMel Robbins46:28

      Okay.

   8. KMKaty Milkman46:28

      So habits are these automatic behaviors that we fall back on because we've built a habit loop, and if, you know, people may be familiar with, uh, The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg or Atomic Habits by, uh, James Clear, these are great books that I think have done a nice job popularizing this idea of a habit loop. Generally, habits form because there's some consistent context we find ourselves in, like the kitchen in the morning or our bathroom at night, and, uh, and we're used to going on autopilot and taking an action, like brushing my teeth a- in the bathroom at night or making a pot of coffee in the kitchen in the morning, and it gives a consistent reward. The coffee wakes me up, and i- that feels good, or the toothpaste makes me feel all tingly and minty, and that feels good. So, you need to have a consistent context which is your cue, you engage in the behavior, you get a reward, and you repeat. And you repeat that cycle often enough, it turns into a habit. And, in fact, we did some research with machine learning where we looked like, how long does it take for things to be habitual? And we found I- it's different for every person, depends on how complex the activity is, but it's not, it's, like, order of magnitude weeks for something simple like washing your hands if you're a hospital caregiver, order of magnitude months for something more complicated like exercising at a gym. So, be patient with yourself if you're trying to build a good habit. But we want to put things on autopilot as much as possible by intentionally following that habit loop so that we actually stop thinking about it-

   9. MRMel Robbins47:58

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KMKaty Milkman47:58

       ... and just start doing it.

   11. MRMel Robbins48:00

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KMKaty Milkman48:00

       Right? That's the magic of making the coffee in the morning and brushing your teeth-

   13. MRMel Robbins48:03

       Yes.

   14. KMKaty Milkman48:04

       ... because it's so automatic and you've done it so many times, you're not thinking about it.

   15. MRMel Robbins48:08

       Right.

   16. KMKaty Milkman48:08

       You're literally doing it mindlessly, and that's actually very good (laughs) if you're trying to build a good habit, to have it happen mindlessly. Now, we can talk about, you know, but don't you want to be mindful and enjoy all the good things you're doing (laughs) , but sometimes you just wanna- the good things to happen, so your mind can wander to other topics. You don't really need to be present necessarily for all of the nitty-gritty stuff in life that you wanna have happen to be successful. So, um, first of all-... recognize the habit loop and try to be intentional about, can you find a context that's gonna trigger you and, and then where you're gonna do this behavior, you're gonna repeat it and find a way to make it rewarding. And the more you repeat, the more likely it is that this is gonna start to feel automatic and no longer effortful. And in fact, there's this really neat research Angela Duckworth did with Brian Galla, uh, who, two academics. A lot of us think that self-control is what makes people repeatedly engage in good behaviors, and actually what they found is a's a lot of the people we thought were self-controlled, they just built habits-

   17. MRMel Robbins49:08

       Mm-hmm.

   18. KMKaty Milkman49:08

       ... and that's what they were fol- You, you thought that person was so self-controlled because they eat so well. Nope, they just have a habit. They actually aren't making a conscious decision to eat that healthy lunch or to exercise in the afternoon or to meditate or to, you know, come to a meeting prepared with a plan. That's their habit. And so habits are a big part of what makes successful people look self-controlled. It's that they've deliberately or accidentally, but mostly deliberately, figured out a way to make this routine automatic.

   19. MRMel Robbins49:37

       Let's

9. 49:38 – 1:00:54

   Boost Your Confidence With this Simple Trick

   1. MRMel Robbins49:38

      talk about the other internal barrier to changing, which is a lack of confidence.

   2. KMKaty Milkman49:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins49:42

      This sort of internal mindset that it's not gonna work for you, or feeling discouraged.

   4. KMKaty Milkman49:47

      Yeah. Uh, this is a really important barrier, and by the way, I wanna emphasize that, uh, it can be, it can be particularly challenging for people who, um, are trying to do something where society has been telling them, "This isn't for you." Uh, and there's, you know, whatever group you belong to, there's probably something that society has said, "People like you shouldn't do this thing."

   5. MRMel Robbins50:11

      Uh-huh.

   6. KMKaty Milkman50:11

      And, and that can make confidence a particularly large barrier. But even if the whole world has been shouting, "You can do it," (laughs) there's probably still something where you're lacking the confidence that you really can. Uh, and so there are a number of things we can do about this. One of them is, um, trying to adopt a growth mindset, which is to recognize that when you have a setback, that doesn't mean you have a fixed ability. It's, it's actually something you can learn and grow from, and you can get better and stronger. That when you look at yourself, and you look at where you are, and you look at the, the things that you're trying to achieve, you recognize you're a work in progress, and if some setback arises and it doesn't go well for you, right, you, you have some misstep, you think, "What can I learn from that?" That's a growth mindset. You recognize you can always get better. A fixed mindset is thinking about yourself as a final product.

   7. MRMel Robbins51:10

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KMKaty Milkman51:11

      This is as good as it gets, and if you have a misstep or a failure, something goes wrong, instead of thinking, "What can I learn from that? How can I grow," you think, "Well, that's just another bit of evidence that I am limited in my capacity." Can you look at those as learning opportunities? What, what was it that went wrong, and how can we learn and grow from that so that this time it'll go better? So growth mindset can be really powerful. Um, there's also some really fascinating research on, uh, how placebo effects can be used in this way. So, most listeners may be familiar with the idea of a placebo effect for giving people positive results in a medical domain, right?

   9. MRMel Robbins51:52

      Mm-hmm.

   10. KMKaty Milkman51:52

       Like, it's changing your belief and expectancy in a way that then you behave differently. So, we can think about what does that mean for those of us who lack confidence in a domain? We don't believe we can do it. Well, what that says is we basically need a placebo to build up our mindset that we can. So, like, what's the equivalent? What w- what would be a placebo effect in the context of confidence? Um, sometimes that is finding a coach or a support structure who's telling you, "You've got this" (laughs) because you need that placebo effect j- just to believe something different is gonna be the outcome. There's research on this in a context that I particularly love, and I think this was actually something you covered on the show recently. I think I listened to an episode where you had Dr. Ellen Langer, uh, from Harvard on, and she talked about this study that I absolutely love where, um, she and Alia Crum, a Stanford professor brought-

   11. MRMel Robbins52:47

       We just interviewed Alia, too.

   12. KMKaty Milkman52:49

       Oh, Alia's amazing.

   13. MRMel Robbins52:49

       Professor Crum. She's a genius.

   14. KMKaty Milkman52:51

       They're both t- wonderful people and brilliant. They have this amazing paper showing that, um, when they told room attendants who were cleaning rooms in hotels, um, that their work was exercise as opposed to, you know, "This is just your job, do your job," um, they told them, "Hey, yeah, during, doing your job, you are getting the CDC recommended amount of exercise," the women who had been told that actually lost additional weight, their blood pressure improved. They saw all of these physiological improvements just because they believed their work was something different, that it was a- helping them achieve a goal. And so, what that sort of mind/body research and placebo effect work tells us is that if confidence is your barrier, you need to find a way to change what you believe is possible about yourself-

   15. MRMel Robbins53:41

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KMKaty Milkman53:41

       ... because that constraint is holding you back, and so it may be that you need to look for a different group of friends who's gonna support you and, and give you that confidence. There's also some really interesting research that was done by, uh, a PhD student at the University of Pennsylvania named, um, Lauren Eskreis Winkler. She's now a professor at Northwestern University, and she was really interested in whether or not people who are struggling, who are not top performers, could be helped to build their confidence, and motivation, and achieve more through any kind of tool. And so she started interviewing low performers and just searching for answers, asking, you know, "What do you think as, you know, you're a struggling salesperson, you're not making your numbers, like, what do you think might help you level up your game? You're a struggling student, you're getting Cs, what do you think might help level you up?" She's thinking she's gonna come up with some nugget, but in the process of collecting that data, one really interesting, um, thing emerged, which was that-... everybody she talked to actually had really great insights, and lit up with delight at being asked. They basically all said, "No one ever asks what I think could improve outcomes. They're constantly giving me advice because I'm not doing very well, but no one's ever asked my opinion. And this feels great, and when can we talk next? (laughs) Because I love this." And she started to wonder if actually there might be sort of a cure for low confidence in giving people a chance to coach and mentor others. Most of the time somebody's having a tough time, we give them advice, whether they want it or not. But what if we give them a chance to coach and advise someone who's even a little bit behind them? In the process of doing that, a few magical things seemed to happen, and, and she has research now to prove it. One is, we, we build confidence. We feel like, "Maybe I have something to offer. Somebody thought to ask me for advice."

   17. MRMel Robbins55:30

       Mm-hmm.

   18. KMKaty Milkman55:30

       The second thing is, "Now I'm accountable. I better come up with a good insight, because there's someone counting on me, someone depending on me." Uh, and, and so people introspect deeply about what might work for someone to achieve more, and they come up with good insights. And then finally, they give that advice, and there's something called the saying is believing effect. They're going to believe it more, and they're going to feel hypocritical if they don't enact the advice themselves. So, what Lauren has shown is that when we actually coach others, and when we step into mentoring roles, it boosts our competence and our confidence. And so one thing that a lot of us can do if we're trying to achieve a goal is find someone else who's also on this journey but who might want and benefit from some coaching, who's a little further behind us.

   19. MRMel Robbins56:14

       Mm.

   20. KMKaty Milkman56:14

       Or if we're, if we're a leader or if there's someone in our life who's struggling, can we find someone who's even a little further behind them and give them an opportunity to coach? This is a great parenting trick. My, uh, my collaborator Angela Duckworth, who was a, a part of the research on this, um, used it a lot with her girls when she was raising them. Like, "Hey-"

   21. MRMel Robbins56:34

       Tell us, how do we do this as parents? Because the way that I was thinking as you were talking is, I think this is fascinating and I want to dig into this research. So, could you come up with a fictitious person? So, hear me out here.

   22. KMKaty Milkman56:45

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   23. MRMel Robbins56:45

       Let's say your boyfriend is struggling to get motivated to the gym.

   24. KMKaty Milkman56:50

       Yeah.

   25. MRMel Robbins56:50

       Or they're struggling to reach their quota. And you turn to them and you say, "You know, I've got a friend of mine who's, you know, got a brother who has been really struggling with motivation around exercise, and, you know, used to be a college athlete. Uh, do you have any advice?"

   26. KMKaty Milkman57:05

       What could help him. Yeah.

   27. MRMel Robbins57:06

       Uh, what could help him? Is that enough to make up? Like, how did you and Angela-

   28. KMKaty Milkman57:09

       Yeah, that's a great-

   29. MRMel Robbins57:09

       ... use this with Angela's daughters?

   30. KMKaty Milkman57:11

       (laughs) That's a great question. So, Angela uses it with her daughters genuinely. I- if one of them is struggling, she'll often say to that daughter, "Hey, you know, your younger sister is also going to encounter this. What do you think ... You know, as you're working through it, what do you think you've learned that might be helpful to her as she deals with the same thing?" So, that would be a way you could use it with kids. But, um, one of the experiments we did was very similar to that hypothetical you just gave-
10. 1:00:54 – 1:07:51

    You Don’t Need Willpower, You Need a Plan

    1. KMKaty Milkman1:00:54

    2. MRMel Robbins1:00:54

       Um, the last internal barrier to change is conformity. Let's talk about this.

    3. KMKaty Milkman1:01:02

       Thi- this actually bridges the internal and the external, so this one I- I, like, snuck into my list of seven with a little bit of trepidation, because it's just so darn important. Uh, but it does, it does bleed a little bit outside of the in- internal. But, um, it shapes our internal dialogue, who we surround ourselves with, what we see them accomplishing, what they're modeling for us. Um, one of my favorite studies that shows how important this is, is a study that was done by an economist named Scott Correll at UT Austin. He got data on, um, students at the Air Force Academy and the squadrons they were assigned to as freshmen, and this is essentially just a random group of people you're gonna have to spend all your time with. And he found that if you end up with folks who you're living with in your freshman year who are more studious, it improves your grades. You get some random assignment to a, a roommate who, you know, had higher verbal SAT scores, you're gonna be a better student. You're gonna get higher grades than if it's the opposite, if you got randomly assigned to someone who wasn't as studious. So, uh, really interesting example of how just exposure to whoever's in your social group randomly changes your outcomes.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:02:14

       Hmm.

    5. KMKaty Milkman1:02:15

       What that means, though, is that actually we are constantly being shaped by whoever it is that we work with, whoever it is we're married to, our social group. The behaviors that they model, whether that's, you know, in the case of the college roommate situation, you know, they stay in and work late on Fridays, so I think that's normal and I should too. Or they, they're, you know, really into exercise, or they are a party animal. We start to think, "Oh, this is normal behavior. This is how I should behave too. This is what I'm capable of." Because that's what other people are signaling to us, what's normal, what's desirable, and what is possible. And so, often that's a barrier. If you are surrounded by other people who are not pursuing the kinds of goals that you really aspire to achieve, they can hold you back by giving you a false belief that this isn't possible for someone like you. But if you seek out friendships, relationships, uh, you know, work companions, mentors, et cetera, who are achieving at a high level, that can show you what's possible. And also, of course, you can literally copy and paste the strategies that are effective for them. And it, this is another one that feels, I think, obvious once you start talking about it, but that a lot of people aren't thinking intentionally about engineering when they have a goal. Looking for friendships, looking to make connections with people who are achieving the specific things you want to achieve, and trying to deliberately emulate what it is that they're doing that's working. We did one experiment. This is with Katy Maher, who's a professor at the University of Alberta, and Angela Duckworth again, where we randomly assigned people to go out and copy and paste someone else's life strategy, uh, for achieving a specific goal. Go find somebody who's doing it and copy what's working for them. And another group, we encouraged them to try to achieve the same goal, but we just gave them ideas that had been acquired actually by the copy and paste group. So actually, this information out there is the same.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:04:22

       It's exactly the same.

    7. KMKaty Milkman1:04:22

       It's the same. But some went out and had to obtain it and try to copy someone they knew, and the people who went out and had to obtain it and copy someone they knew did better. Uh, they were getting that social interaction, that social information. They're getting information that may be more personally relevant, and, and they're seeing how it's implemented, and so they're better able to internalize and execute. So, think about how can you use the people around you as a tool to help you change. We also talked earlier about tandem goal pursuit. This idea of, you know, if I do it with a friend, that can motivate me because I'm gonna feel accountable, I'm gonna enjoy it more. And so that's another way that conformity can be flipped from being a barrier to being a solution. Um, the people around us have huge power over what we achieve and whether or not we get to our goals. And so, first best is you actually engage with the people, and that's what the research shows. But if you can't find them, then, then trying to learn about them in other ways, whether it's listening to their podcast or reading their memoir, you can, you can seek that information about how people you aspire to be like are achieving and, and find out what's possible. There are other information sources.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:05:33

       Yeah.

    9. KMKaty Milkman1:05:33

       But first best is having those relationships that allow you to see exactly how are they implementing and ask the questions, and that's what our research has shown.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:05:41

        You know, for the person who's listening who's like, "All right. I'm ready. I, I'm gonna grab the fresh start, baby. I wanna make a big change and I really wanna make it stick in the next six months," what is the smartest evidence-backed way to begin? Can you just walk us through it? Like, what you want us to do if we've got the wind at our back.

    11. KMKaty Milkman1:06:05

        Yeah. First, set a goal and make it concrete, right? Not vaguely, "Oh, I want to get in shape," or, "I want to improve my career outcomes." Be really concrete about that goal, like, "I want to start exercising three times a week until I can bench press this, (laughs) this number of weights," right? So, so make it measurable, concrete, and make the plan.

    12. MRMel Robbins1:06:27

        Okay.

    13. KMKaty Milkman1:06:27

        When are you gonna do it? Where are you gonna do it? How are you gonna get there? And in that planning, consider, is there a way to make it fun?

    14. MRMel Robbins1:06:35

        Mm.

    15. KMKaty Milkman1:06:35

        Can you say when I'm gonna do it, where I'm gonna do it, how I'm gonna get there, and PS, it's gonna be Zumba class with Mel, or it's gonna be, you know, I'm gonna be temptation bundling my favorite TV show while I simultaneously...... fold the laundry. You know, what, what is your strategy for making it fun? So, set a goal, concrete goal. Make a plan. When will you do it, where will you do it, and how can you make it fun? Those would be the first set of things I'd do, but we've talked about other strategies you could layer on depending on, uh, which of the barriers you see in yourself. You might need to sprinkle in some extra reminders. Maybe you need some social support if confidence is a barrier. You may need to find someone who you could mentor who's also trying (laughs) to do this, or maybe you need to find yourself a mentor who's gonna coach you on some strategies that might make it effective and make you believe in yourself. So, feel free to layer on and sprinkle on top some of the additional tools, but beginning with the concrete, measurable, achievable stretch goal. Stretch yourself a little, not a lot. Make it measurable, make it concrete, daily bite size, make it fun. What's your plan?

    16. MRMel Robbins1:07:48

        Now, if you had a bottom line, absolutely all the

11. 1:07:51 – 1:13:19

    The #1 Rule for Creating Lasting Change

    1. MRMel Robbins1:07:51

       amazing research, the incredible number of tools and strategies, the insights you gave us about the seven internal barriers, what do you think is the most important thing that you want the person listening or watching to take away from our conversation today?

    2. KMKaty Milkman1:08:11

       If it is painful to pursue your goal, you will quit. That is simply how we are wired. If you dread it, you're not gonna keep doing it, and almost everything we need to accomplish in life requires persistence. So find a way to make it enjoyable. There are so many different recipes you can use to make it fun. You can make it fun by allowing yourself to enjoy a, a special treat while you're engaging in the behavior. You can make it fun by making it social. You do it with someone you really love. You can make it fun in, uh, selecting a different kind of activity, right? Instead of getting on the maximally punishing StairMaster, now you're going to dance class. Find a way to make it fun to do the thing that will help you achieve your goal. That is the number one most important thing that all of us get wrong, and that will lead to success. And in my career, I will say, the way I make it fun to do my work every morning is I work with people I love. So, one of the ways that you can make it fun is by making it social, finding the people, finding the tribe that makes it enjoyable to pursue this goal together. There are lots of formulas, but do not allow yourself to find misery in your goal, or you will find that you can't succeed.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:09:27

       Professor Milkman, what are your parting words?

    4. KMKaty Milkman1:09:30

       One thing we haven't talked about that I think is really important is just being kind to yourself when there's missteps-

    5. MRMel Robbins1:09:36

       Mm-hmm.

    6. KMKaty Milkman1:09:36

       ... because change is really hard. There is no silver bullet. There is no guarantee. If you start temptation bundling, if you start coaching someone else, it doesn't mean with 100% certainty you will achieve your goal this week. We're gonna have missteps. We are human. We're fallible. It's part of the way we are designed. And so give yourself grace. Recognize that setbacks are just part of the journey, and have a growth mindset. Give yourself flexibility as you are pursuing these goals. It's really important to allow yourself a day where things go wrong. I have a colleague named Marissa Sharif who's done wonderful work showing that if you set a really tough stretch goal for yourself, you know, "I'm gonna meditate seven days this week, that's my goal," but then you give yourself two emergency reserves that says, "I- if I can't, I'm still gonna count that I'm in." It, I get two days where I can cheat and it still counts. Those people who do that instead of saying, "My goal is five days this week," which is, by the way, identical, they're twice as successful. So, stretch yourself, but give yourself grace. Allow yourself to acknowledge there are emergencies. If you're practicing a habit, it's better actually to practice it in a way that has some variety so you're flexible in case something comes up and you can't always get to the gym at 7:00 AM. You're actually better off having, when you were trying to build that habit sometimes, go at a different time so you're good at coming up with a backup plan. So, I would say it's really important to give yourself grace in all these ways, because change is hard. There's a lot of tools that can make it more likely you'll succeed, but none of them makes it 100% likely. You will always face setbacks, and just recognize that that's part of the journey. It doesn't mean there's anything wrong with you. In fact, it means there's something right with you. You are human. You are normal, and so give yourself that grace. Find ways to get back on the wagon after you've had a setback to motivate yourself to begin again, whether it's a fresh start or finding someone who will jump back in with you, uh, but give yourself that grace. That's the most important thing I wanna leave with.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:11:43

       Professor Milkman, thank you, thank you, thank you for the work that you do. Thank you for coming here to our Boston studios and taking time to teach us this. I feel so excited. I'm ready for a fresh start just based on (laughs) sitting with you, so thank you. You know, with that, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to something that will help you change your life. Professor Milkman started by talking about the fact that you have some aspect of your life that you want to make better, that people in your life have things that they wanna make better, that you have goals and dreams. And I'm excited that you spent time and invested time learning about the things that you can do that are based in research and science to help you achieve those goals, to feel better and do better. And there's no doubt in my mind that if you really take to heart everything that you learn today and you share this with people that you love, you will make those changes. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you as your friend that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And isn't a beautiful thing to know that you have this operating system and there's research that you can use to help you tweak it a little bit and make small changes that make your life better? And I really hope you do. Alrighty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'm gonna welcome you in the moment you hit play. (instrumental music plays) And thank you for watching all the way to the end, and you're gonna love this next video, and I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. (instrumental music plays)

Episode duration: 1:13:19