Difficult Conversations: Why You Need Them and When to Have Them | The Mel Robbins Podcast

1. 0:00 – 3:34

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:03

      We need to have a really difficult conversation, and I bet just hearing those words, "We need to talk," doesn't it make your armpits start to sweat? You have a front row seat as I'm coaching four listeners who are just like you, who need to have a difficult conversation with someone in their life. You're getting the rules, the tactics, the strategies that are going to empower you to have these hard conversations. All right, you ready? Awesome. I'm ready, so let's go. (upbeat music) Hey, it's your friend Mel, and today we are having a difficult conversation on the Mel Robbins Podcast, so let's just jump right into it. Okay, you ready? Because we need to have a really difficult conversation, and I bet just hearing those words, "We need to talk," doesn't it make your armpits start to sweat? I know whenever anybody texts me or sends me an email and they write the words, "Hey Mel, I have something that I need to talk to you about," I suddenly feel like it's fourth grade Mel, and I'm about to get grounded. And so first things first, yes, we are talking about difficult conversations today, but take a deep breath. Relax. You and I are not having a difficult conversation. Today you have a front row seat as I'm coaching four listeners of the Mel Robbins Podcast who are just like you, who need to have a difficult conversation with someone in their life. Now, they've been avoiding it, they've been thinking about it, and now they've reached out, and they're seeking advice for the best way to handle those conversations that we all need to have at some point in our lives, and that's what we're going to unpack today. And if you're brand new to the Mel Robbins Podcast, welcome. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on change, motivation, and habits. And today you're getting the rules, the tactics, the strategies that are going to empower you to have these hard conversations. You'll learn the three main reasons why you and I avoid these conversations, and that's important because when you know which of the three categories you're in, it's going to help you create a strategy. You're also going to learn when do you actually need to have a conversation and when do you not need to have one, and you're also going to leave this podcast with scripts. That's right, you're going to know exactly what you need to say to start these conversations, to have these conversations, and you're also going to know how to handle yourself if the conversation does go off the rails. Now, I'm super excited for these coaching sessions today because they're going to help you. They're going to help you tap into the courage inside of you, and I want that. I want you to live your life with the strength and freedom to express yourself, and a lotta times, you know what that means? That means you have to have difficult conversations. This is the perfect episode, by the way, to share with somebody that you know who may be struggling with the same issue. All right, you ready? Awesome. I'm ready, so let's go. We're going to start off with a listener who has a question about a friend issue and having a difficult conversation with a friend. I know you will relate to this one because I sure

2. 3:34 – 7:42

   Listen to Claudia’s question about how to set boundaries in friendships.

   1. MRMel Robbins3:34

      do.

   2. CLClaudia3:34

      Hi Mel, it's Claudia. I have a question about dealing with conflict, especially when you have a lot of childhood trauma that makes you extremely conflict avoidant. Currently I'm gearing up to reopen a conversation with a friend who lashed out at me last week. This is a person who I honestly wish that I could just let go like you talked about in one of your earlier episodes. Unfortunately, she is intertwined with a large friend group which makes it difficult to just step away and move on. What I hope to do in this conversation is set boundaries about moving forward with our relationship. Basically, I'm going to be downgrading the level of closeness by saying that I would like to limit our interactions to being in person because being in a group chat with her is what has driven all our conflict. I also want to try to validate her feelings. While I'm really clear on this and I have worked through this in several extra therapy sessions, dealing with the anxiety leading up to it and the courage to simply begin it can get overwhelming, and I sometimes wish I could just escape and hide. Anyway, I would love some tips on how to start this tough conversation and maybe some tips on things I need to keep in mind when I talk to her. Thanks so much for your work and content. Have a great day.

   3. MRMel Robbins4:40

      Claudia, first of all, I love you, and I wish we could all have friends like Claudia who have something that they need to say, who are willing to talk to you about it, who are worried enough about it going right that she's spending time in therapy working through it, and that she's reaching out. I mean, that is the sign of a great friend. And as you listen to the advice and to all the questions that come in today, I want you to listen with intention because there are going to be times where you're Claudia and you've got something that you really want to say to a friend and you don't know how to do it, and you think about it and it just makes you nervous to think about bringing it up, and then guess what? There are times that we are all on the receiving end of a difficult conversation because we've acted in a way where we didn't realize the way that we've been behaving really is bothering somebody else. And so there's so much here to cover, and here's where I want to start. First of all, thank you Claudia. I love your thoughtful question. The details really help, and I want to start by unpacking the three main reasons why you and I avoid hard conversations to begin with. So one of the main reasons why is you don't know what to say, like you're not even sure how to start the conversation. And I know that somebody in my family is going through this right now.They called me because bonuses came in, and they were really frustrated with the bonus that they got, and they want to talk to their boss about it, and, you know, he doesn't know how to start that conversation because the boss has already told him that, "Hey, profits were down. This is all I can do. I would like to give you more, but I can't," and yet he feels demoralized. Like, it makes him not even want to stay at the job. So that's a hard conversation to have with your boss, and so he called me because he doesn't know what to say. And so if you're sitting there going, "I'm in the same situation as Claudia," or, "I'm in the same situation" as your family member, Mel, "who called you, and I'm disappointed with my bonus. I don't know, like, I got something I got to say at work," and you don't know how to start it, this is really normal, and we're going to give you some tools today. So the second reason why we avoid hard conversations is because you think, "Well, it's not my responsibility," and a group chat is the perfect example of that. In fact, I'm going away on a women's weekend, and there are eight of us going away, and I'm super excited, but we all met as part of a larger group. And I'm in this group chat, I'm sure you've had this experience where I didn't plan it, but now I'm starting to feel like, "Uh-oh, are other people going to feel left out? Should I say something? Should I not say something? Is this my responsibility? What do I do? I don't know." And that's an example of when you freeze a little bit because you are like, "Well, should somebody else say this? Because I'm just invited, you know? Should I raise something? I don't know."

3. 7:42 – 16:40

   Here are 3 reasons why we avoid difficult conversations in the first place.

   1. MRMel Robbins7:42

      And the point is, is that if you feel uncomfortable, you should raise it, period. Doesn't matter if it's a group chat, doesn't matter if it's somebody else's event. If you feel uncomfortable or you feel this discomfort about something, just raise it. Think about not the content, just think about the context, like what's the tone? Who do you say it to? Um, there are ways to deliver the message in a way that is a little bit softer and a little bit more, um, (smacks lips) what's the right, diplomatic, but you should still say what you need to say because this is about self-expression. But the third reason why we avoid difficult conversations is the big one, and it's one that we are all guilty of, and it is the need to be liked, the need to keep the peace, the need to not upset anybody, and there's lots of words that we can throw into this giant casserole of avoiding difficult conversations. For example, Claudia already alluded to one of the words, and that's childhood trauma. If you have any kind of childhood trauma, if you grew up in a, uh, household where parents were unpredictable or abusive, or there was a lot of conflict and yelling, or you got the silent treatment, you basically were in a situation where any kind of confrontation, any kind of upset made you scared as a kid. And what happens when you grow up with that kind of trauma or stress or conditioning in your household is that you're basically trained to be very conflict-avoidant. You are trained to keep the peace. You are trained not to upset somebody, and this is really common. And so if you find that you freeze when the thought of having a difficult conversation enters your mind, you're not alone. I have a very, very close friend whose mom was severely emotionally abusive, not physically abusive, emotionally abusive. She would deploy the silent treatment for weeks, like literally act as though her daughter didn't exist. My dear friend is now an adult who avoids conflict at all costs, because as a kid, she was trained by her mother that, "If you do something that makes me upset, you don't exist." And the... and so that kind of freezing is very, very real, and in fact, if you noticed in Claudia's question, she alluded to the fact that she knows that this is tied to childhood trauma. She knows that the, uh, thought of upsetting somebody or causing some sort of conflict, that it makes her freeze. And so Claudia, that's another incredible thing that I want to point out and acknowledge you for, is the self-awareness that there is a difference between that kind of childhood trauma that is now impacting you as an adult and your ability as an adult to recognize that that's at play and to take proactive strategic steps to act in alignment with the woman you want to be now, which is a courageous woman that can have these conversations and that can draw these boundaries. Now, before I start to unpack more of the story with Claudia, I also want to highlight something that, um, I don't think we think about a lot, and that is that we assume that if we avoid the conversation, it somehow disappears. We make the mistake of believing that if we don't have the difficult conversation, if we don't have the conflict, if we don't ruffle somebody's feathers, that somehow things are going to be more comfortable, right? I mean, that's why you're avoiding it. You think keeping the peace is better. Have you noticed that avoiding a difficult conversation just creates this difficult feeling inside of you, that as you are actively avoiding it, you are thinking about the conversation? As you are struggling with how to start it-And you walk into a room and you see the person you need to have this conversation with, you can feel the discomfort inside of you. And so we sit here and tell ourselves a lie, that avoiding it will make it better, when the truth is, it's the avoidance of these hard or difficult conversations that create discomfort inside of all of us. And a lot of times what I've found when I've had these conversations is the other person didn't even know I was upset, and it wasn't until I found the courage to have the conversation that I relieved myself of the discomfort, and I empowered the situation to get better. And I love Claudia's question because I think this is so common in friendships, that we do have issues with friends, and that's okay. You can have issues with friends, and part of friendship is having the respect for somebody else to be able to say when something isn't working, because people can feel when shit is off, okay? And I've got a really close friend that had a very similar issue to Claudia's, where she's part of a large friend group, their kids are all friends, and there's no X-ing this person out of the friend group 'cause the kids are all friends, and there's lots of times in your life where you're going to have family members or kids that are friends with other people, and you don't really jive with the person that, you know, their fr- like, it just is part of life, and you got to learn how to have boundaries and how to draw boundaries. And I remember this friend of mine saying there was this one person in the friend group who was a drama queen, constantly making it about herself, constantly causing issues within the friend group, and finally, my friend said to this person, in person, "Look, we're just not ever going to be best friends, but for the sake of this friend group, and for the sake of our kids, let's just rise above this, and let's just leave it at that. Let's stop trying to be good friends because we're just not going to, but we can be cordial." And maybe that's what Claudia is going to have to do. In fact, I wanted to understand more about the specific thing that was going on with Claudia and this friend, so I reached out to her and she has got more details. You're going to hear those details, plus my six simple steps to a hard conversation. All of that is coming up when we return. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins. Today, you and I are talking about difficult conversations, why we need to have them and, more importantly, how you can have them. So we were just talking about Claudia, who is having an issue with a friend in a big friend group, and this woman was, like, blowing up in group chats, and Claudia is really triggered. She's stressed out about having a hard conversation with her to protect her peace. And so I asked Claudia, "Can you give me a little bit more detail about what actually happened with this friend so that I can use the details to walk you through the six steps of how you have a hard conversation?" And this is what Claudia had to say.

   2. CVClaudia's friend voicemail/letter15:13

      This conflict comes after many smaller ones where even minor disagreement with my friend, such as not liking the same things as them, resulted in disproportionate anger and statements there was something wrong with me. In the current conflict, my friend flew into a rage and really laid into me when I could not return her call as quickly as she would like. I have felt like I'm walking on eggshells with this friend for over a year, so I'm ready to set some boundaries and protect my peace.

   3. MRMel Robbins15:38

      Wow, Claudia. Uh, I commend you 'cause I think a lot of us would just be like, "I'm just going to ghost this person. I'm just slowly going to exit stage left." And I commend you, Claudia, because I don't think this conversation will necessarily change the other person, but finding the courage to have this difficult conversation will change you, because every time you tap into your courage and you take actions that empower a higher version of yourself and empower your self-expression and help you protect your peace and advance your values, you become a better you. And so the first thing I would do is I would stop calling this person a friend, because friends don't rage on each other like that, not all the time. And now what I want to do is I want to give you a tool. So this is the first tool that I want you to take away when it comes to

4. 16:40 – 23:30

   Make sure you are ready with THIS before you start your conversation.

   1. MRMel Robbins16:40

      those moments when you feel you need to start a hard conversation. The tool is know your why. You have to know why you want to have this conversation. What are you hoping to get out of this? And this is really important because your why is going to anchor you as you think about the structure of how you're going to have this conversation. Your why, Claudia, is you want to protect your peace. That's a great why, and the why you want to protect your peace is everything, and I'm going to keep coming back to it as we talk about the structure of a hard conversation. And for you listening, I want you to think about your why, okay? And the why could be that I need to find, I need to find the courage to speak up at work. The why might be I'd actually like to improve this friendship. The why might be that I need to start sticking up for myself, or the why could be Claudia's, "I need more peace in my life, and I'm not going to get it by ignoring this person or just trying to not let it bother me because it does bother me, and protecting my peace means speaking up for my peace." And so I think that's awesome. So take away number one, everybody, you need to know your why, and then you have to pick a specific example...that you're going to point to as something concrete, very factual that you can anchor the conversation around. You want to narrow it to something that has a time, a place, something very specific, that has specific facts to it. "When you called me on Tuesday and left a message, and I didn't respond, you then texted back in all caps, doing blah-biddy-blah-biddy-blah." You're just going to describe what happened very factually, okay? I don't want a lot of adjectives, because anything that becomes, I don't know, a little bit bigger, the person's going to be on the defense, okay? So, you're going to explain something recent, something factual, so that you anchor the conversation on one specific incident. That's really important, because we're going to ultimately flip this around to how it made you feel. Because it's not really about what the other person did, because they are going to argue about that, but they can't argue about the impact, intentional or unintentional, that it had on you. Now, we're going to talk about the guidelines for having what can be a tricky conversation, or an emotionally charged conversation, and these guidelines come, uh, from a combination of places. And again, we will link to all the resources and any studies or any articles that we, uh, refer to in this episode, or any of the things that we unearthed as we were researching this episode. These first few guidelines come from Harvard Business Review, and then I'm going to give you my formula for difficult conversations. So, number one, Harvard Business Review. Don't ever assume that your point is obvious, because most of the time, it's not that obvious. You know, I think people are very self-aware when it comes to how you feel about yourself, but we have a huge blind spot when it comes to how we occur for other people. And I have a personal example of this, where I was on the receiving end of being a really crappy friend to somebody. So, I had been friends with this person for a very long time. We had raised our kids together, and it was during the period of time where Chris's restaurants were in major financial crisis. I had lost my job. We were profoundly scrambling financially, and it was just a really bad time. And this friend of mine, who had known me for a long time, had no idea any of this was going on, and I had no idea that she was starting to feel like I was using her for babysitting. And the truth is, I'd never thought about it that way, because I was in such survival mode and in such a panic that I was doing whatever I could to find a job, to work, to, to, to bring in any money that I could, and I needed help. But I wasn't really great about asking for it or sharing what was going on, and it wasn't obvious to me how this was coming across to my friends. Well, finally, this friend had had enough with me, and she didn't confront me right away. What she did instead is, she was having a birthday party and she didn't invite me. Like, absolutely every one of our friends was invited to this massive party, and I only found out the next day because a couple friends were like, "Hey, why weren't you at so-and-so's party?" And I was like, "What party?" And I knew immediately that it was intentional that we weren't invited and that I had done something profoundly wrong. And I had felt for months, like the energy and the vibe was really off, and this goes to this point that I'm trying to make, that these uncomfortable conversations just create discomfort when you don't have them. Like, you know when something's off, you know when somebody's kind of mad at you, but you don't know quite why. It's not obvious to you, because again, I'm going to say this over and over, we're in our own heads. We're dealing with our own issues, and while we might be aware of what we're dealing with internally, we usually have a massive, massive blind spot to how we are showing up for other people or not showing up, or how our behavior looks from the outside. And at this period of time, nobody knew that I was struggling with drinking. Nobody knew that Chris and I were $800,000 in debt. Nobody knew that we had liens on the house or that Chris wasn't getting paid, or that I had lost my... Like, we were hiding all of it. We were just scrambling. And I'll never forget how scared I was when I picked up the phone that morning, because I had no idea what I had done, and I called and I got a voicemail and I just said, "I know I've done something wrong and I would love to know what it is." And it was one of the hardest phone calls I've ever had to make, and that led to one of the most gut-wrenching and difficult conversations I've ever been a part of. And if I put myself in her shoes,

5. 23:30 – 26:27

   Here’s what you should assume before you have a conversation.

   1. MRMel Robbins23:30

      what she shared with me was right, that I was absent. I was always working. I made my friends feel like I was their babysitting service while I was working, that, uh, nobody knew what the hell was going on, that I had clearly changed, that it seemed like my values had changed, and it was very, very painful to hear. And it wasn't obvious to me, and I really appreciate my friend for saying what needed to be said, because I'm sure it wasn't easy for her to say it either, but she was the only one who did.And I wish she would've said it before it had gotten to that point, and I think that's why these conversations are also important, because you don't know what's going on with somebody else. You don't know if they're really struggling. You don't know what's going on behind the closed doors. You don't know if, th-, a- and you should assume, they don't have a clue how they're coming off, because 99% of the time, when I've had these hard conversations or I've been the one that somebody's had a hard conversation with, I didn't know. They didn't know, and it's only through the courage of having that conversation that you know, and then you can do better. And, you know, I will also tell you that our friendship was very off for years, and it's been in recent years that we have found our way back to one another. But I'll tell you what, I trust her more than most people, 'cause I know she will tell me now and she knows I will tell her now, and I love her for that. So, it's not always obvious and you should assume that, and that's why it's important to go into these conversations with a little bit of compassion, very specific examples, and to anchor on how it makes you feel. Because, you know, again, going back to the situation with my friend, I could explain and I did ad nauseum all of the things that were going on that made me appear the way that I appeared, and I could apologize like crazy for making somebody feel that way, and it doesn't change the fact that unintentionally, I made somebody feel that way. And that sucks, but I'm grateful for the fact that I got a chance to air that out and to apologize, and t- to do better, honestly. So, that's number one: Don't assume your point is obvious, and this matters because it brings a level of, I think, compassion to the way that you think about this. It makes you step in the other person's shoes for just a second, even if they're a really annoying, outrageous asshole. Second thing from Harvard Business Review, this is huge: Do not exaggerate. Do not. Like, don't go into the, "You always do this,

6. 26:27 – 31:49

   Never do this or you’ll put the other person on the defensive.

   1. MRMel Robbins26:27

      you always do that, you always do the other thing," because, you know, even thinking back to that conversation, it did become a pile-on. There was one instance that my friend referred to, and I immediately felt crushed because I knew exactly what she was talking about, and I could see why it made her feel that way. Then the door- then it just became like, "And this and that and the oth-" And y- you just need one thing, really. Um, but I- I- e- when you also get to the point where you're like, "You always do this," or, "You always do that," or, "You always do the other thing," it does make the person shut down that's on the receiving end, and it also makes them extremely defensive, because it does feel like an exaggeration. Somebody's not always one way, and if you have just one example, that usually stings enough, and it's enough, uh, to have one example to unpack the dynamic and your feelings. And trust me, even if the person doesn't respond the way you want them to, you've dropped a grenade in their head. It's gonna go off later. These kinds of conversations rarely happen in life, and they stay with people. And as you can tell in the way that I explained that conversation, it stays with me decades later. So, keep it to one example, 'cause that's all you need. Okay, now I wanna give you the six simple steps that I use whenever I need to have a difficult conversation. And, you know, as a baseline, I also wanna say something else. You should try to have these conversations in person, and if you can't have them in person, have them on Zoom. The reason why I- I like having them in person or having them on Zoom is because when you can see the person's facial expressions, it just brings a whole level of humanity and understanding and connection to these conversations, and there's way too much that can get misinterpreted if you're on the phone or... Never have this stuff over text or over e-mail. Do not do that, because I think that's a lot of why we need difficult conversations, because there is so much that gets misinterpreted with the written word, okay? So, in person, on Zoom. So, let me give you all six, and then I'm gonna unpack them using Claudia's example. So, step number one, you start the conversation by stating your why. Step number two, you're going to have a specific singular example of what happened, and then you are going to state how it made you feel. "I felt X when this specific thing happened." Step number four, you're gonna listen with your mouth shut. Step number five, you're gonna validate whatever you hear, because whatever you hear is their lived experience. And when you validate whatever you hear, it takes this from an argument back into a conversation. And then six and final, how you end it, how you get out of this, is you state your why again, and if you have any request related to a boundary or a change in behavior, you state it then. And that's it. So, let me unpack this with Claudia's example, okay? So, Claudia's why is very simple."I want to protect my peace." That's her why. Then she's going to have in mind a specific example that happened, and I would recommend that she anchor in on the most recent thing. And based on what she said, the most recent thing is that this friend got really upset with Claudia, because Claudia did not return a phone call in the amount of time that this friend expected Claudia to return the phone call. And so, the next piece is after saying, you know, "I, I, I really want to protect my peace. I want to figure out how we can, like, remove the friction between us, and I want to talk specifically about when you got upset with me last week because I didn't return your phone call in the amount of time that you thought I should return it." Now, what Claudia's going to say is, "I felt attacked," or, "I felt triggered. You know, I have a lot of past trauma. Uh, my mom was really erratic, and, um, when you came at me for something that I felt like I didn't do anything wrong, I literally felt like that little kid again that was getting in trouble for, for something I didn't do wrong. Like, I, I don't owe you a phone call back. Um, and that's how I felt when you lashed out at me." Then, you're going to listen.

7. 31:49 – 34:51

   Here’s my favorite visual when it’s my turn to listen.

   1. MRMel Robbins31:49

      "Is there anything that you want to say about what happened?" And she might be just vomiting stress at you. Just listen. You know, a tactic that I use when somebody is doing that is I will, you know, I've talked about this on other episodes, I call it the snow globe. I imagine the person just inside a snow globe that's shaking up and all that crap coming out of their mouth, I just kind of let it stay in the snow globe with them. And if you can find one thing to validate, like maybe what you're going to learn is, "I'm really," you know, "I'm..." Hopefully they apologize. Maybe they don't. But maybe what you're going to hear is, you know, "I'm, I've just really stressed out and I really needed you, and, you know, I had a lot going on, and, and I told you that I needed you to call me back," ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. All you're going to say is, "I hear you. You needed me. You told me that you needed me to call you back. I can understand how that would make you upset." That's it. That's it. And then six, you say your why again. "I just need to protect my peace, and I want to remove the drama. And so moving forward, please know I do not return phone calls on demand, and if you need an immediate response, I recommend that you text me and you tell me that you need an immediate response. And I will at least get back to you to let you know if I can respond or not." And that's it. That's it. That is the anatomy of how you have a difficult conversation, and your why is the most important part. Because imagine if Claudia went in saying, "I really want to repair this friendship," the conversation goes a little bit differently, right? Because when you say, "I want to protect your peace," you are basically telling this per- "and I don't want, I want to try to, like, dissipate the drama between us, and so let's talk about what happened last week, because when you did that, like, I felt this, and it makes me not want to text you, it makes... and I don't want that. I want to just dissipate the drama." You know? "What do you need to say? And I'll listen." Listen, validate. But imagine if Claudia went in and said, "I really want to repair this friendship," that has a very different tone to it, right? Your why is everything, which is why you got to know it going in, and it's why the specific example matters too. All right, now you have very specific takeaways already in this episode for having a difficult conversation. When we come back, you're going to meet a woman who is having a lot of problems with her husband's ex, and she wants to know, uh, "Should I even have a conversation with this person? Is this going to be a waste of time, or do I need a strategy, Mel?" We're going to tackle that when we come back. Welcome back. I'm Mel Robbins, and today, you and I are tackling difficult conversations, how to have them, when to have them, why you need to have them. And up

8. 34:51 – 37:14

   Do you have to communicate with an ex? Listen to Erica.

   1. MRMel Robbins34:51

      next, you're about to hear from Erica. She wrote in because her husband's ex-girlfriend is making her very present in their relationship, and Erica has had enough. Listen.

   2. ERErica35:04

      Hello, Mel. It is Erica. My husband has an ex-girlfriend with two young daughters. They have been separated for more than 12 years, but she's very controlling. Thank God we live in a different state miles and miles away from her. Every time we go visit his daughters and my husband family, she wants to be present in every single activity. I always try to be my best to tolerate her, but her pettiness is ridiculous. What can I do, or how I can make this situation better for myself? Thank you.

   3. MRMel Robbins35:43

      Erica, I love your question, and I love you for writing in with this, and thank you, thank you, thank you. And look, first of all, this woman's beef is with your husband and with life in general. It's not with you, and you can't fix that. And so number one, I want you to be honest with yourself. Are you upset because of her, or are you upset because your husband will not deal with this head-on? Maybe you're not the one who needs to have the conversation. Maybe your husband needs to have the difficult conversation and needs to start setting boundaries. And the bottom line is, is that if she's upset with your husband or upset with the separation or upset with life in general, you can't fix that.You just can't. And so, I personally feel like what's going to benefit you the most is a strategy. I'll talk about the conversation in a minute that you could have, but first I want to talk about the strategy. So, there are basically only two different things that you can do. You ready? You got to rise above this. You said, "I'm trying to, Mel," but there's something about this that is hooking you, and I personally think it's not the ex-girlfriend. I think it's your husband and how he's dealing with this, and how he's letting the bullshit slide. But that's just my assumption. I could be wrong. But for you, rising above it means not letting the ex get her hooks in you. And there's a great strategy

9. 37:14 – 40:31

   You’ve got to learn how to “gray rock” when dealing with difficult people.

   1. MRMel Robbins37:14

      that Dr. Ramani, who is the world's leading expert on narcissism, uh, she's been on the podcast twice, and she calls this strategy gray rocking, which basically means whenever you are around the ex, be like a gray rock. You're so boring. You don't even notice. You're not triggered by anything. You keep your answers short. You're not that interested in this woman's life. You're not trying to be her friend. You just let her pettiness be like water dripping off a gray rock. And when you're a gray rock, you're also not her target. So imagine a gray rock every time you're about to see the ex. A second way that you can rise above this is look at the ex as a kid. Like, every time you see your husband's ex, I want you to see a seven-year-old girl having a ridiculous tantrum. That's what her pettiness is. She's trying to get your attention, just like a seven-year-old would try to get h- your attention. I want you to put in your mind a little seven-year-old version of your husband's ex, put her in a ridiculous little dress-up dress, then stick her inside that snow globe, and every time she does something petty or something annoying or something ridiculous, you're just going to imagine that seven-year-old version of her in a ridiculous little party dress throwing a tantrum because she's not the center of attention, and she does ah-nah-nah-nah-nah, and she gets petty, because then everybody gets da-dee, da-dee, da-dee. It's her only way to get power, right? That's her way to get power. She just loves it when she irritates you. Why? Because now she's the center of attention. But you're not going to buy into that anymore, are you? Because you're either going to be a gray rock, you're going to be so damn boring that everything just rolls right off you, you're not even really paying attention, you don't add any fuel to the fire, or you're going to kind of giggle at her, because she's throwing a tantrum, seven-year-old in her party dress who gets really petty because it's the only thing she has in life. (laughs) You know, that's what you're going to do. That helps you emotionally unhook yourself. It helps you stay separate, and that is going to help you not have to have a difficult conversation, because I personally think if you're going to have a conversation, you need to have it with your husband, and you need to tell him that he's got to step up, because every time he doesn't and she acts petty, it makes you feel a certain way, and that it makes you feel like you don't respect him, or whatever it may be. It's just frustrating to you. The other way that you could step into this, if you think about your why, and maybe your why, if you're going to have this conversation with your husband, is you can't stand watching her walk all over him, or maybe your why is something more powerful.

10. 40:31 – 42:12

    Like it or not, you have to have this conversation for your kids’ sake.

    1. MRMel Robbins40:31

       And here's the more powerful why: his daughters are watching, and kids don't learn by hearing what we say. Kids learn by watching what we do. And if the why is big enough that the adults need to rise above this bullshit for the sake of the daughters, that we got to lose this petty crap for the sake of the daughters, because you know what? Whether you like it or not, the way the ex is dealing with your husband and the way that your husband refuses to deal with his ex, that is modeling of a relationship for the daughters. And so, for the sake of the daughters, you could have the hard conversation with your husband and with the ex, but you got to figure out what the why is for you. Um, you know, and again, I'm going to say what I said to Claudia. Maybe this is happening because you're the one that's the bigger one. Maybe you're in all of their lives because you're the one that's going to break the chain of behavior. Maybe you're the one that is here because you're meant to tap into the courage inside you to hold all of you to a higher standard. And look, maybe the ex isn't capable of it. Maybe there's so much trauma and resentment, and she hasn't done the work, and it's easier to be angry and petty and all

11. 42:12 – 43:03

    Here is what anger and pettiness actually is.

    1. MRMel Robbins42:12

       that stuff, 'cause, you know, when somebody's angry and petty, it's just pain. That's it. They don't know how to tolerate pain, so they attack people, and they're petty, and they seek attention. But when you get clear on your why, I wanted to talk to you, because I would really love for the sake of the girls for us to rise above this."And when X happened, I felt X, and I think we can do better." When you do that, you've got a chance to transform the family dynamic. And remember, you're only going to use one example, and then you're going to give time for your husband or the ex to respond, and two things are going to happen, especially when you're dealing with somebody who's petty or volatile. Either the person is going to listen, and holy shit, they apologize,

12. 43:03 – 44:41

    One of two things will happen when you handle conversations like this.

    1. MRMel Robbins43:03

       like there's something in you rising above the noise that is almost like a hand that helps them step up and rise above the noise. It might surprise you. You know, you could be the force that changes everything, because maybe the ex and your husband have been locked in this stupid-ass dynamic for so long, they don't know anything else, but you're the one that could demand something new. Or if when they listen, they don't apologize, they immediately react like that seven-year-old in the party di- you know, dress, like throwing yet another, "How dare you say that? You're not even..." (babbles) All you say is calmly, "I'm not blaming you. I'm explaining how something made me feel. I'm expressing a concern, and if you don't have the capacity to hear that, that's okay. Thank you for at least letting me say it, because I am committed to being a better example for the girls." You restate your why, boom, you're out. And, you know, some people fight and are petty and pick fights as a way to control you, and some people do it as a way to stay connected to you. And, you know, when you go silent or when you do these things, it triggers them, so they get even more intense. And in fact, Candace is having this exact problem

13. 44:41 – 46:04

    How do you handle combative people in your life? Listen to Candace.

    1. MRMel Robbins44:41

       with her family, and she's got to have a really difficult conversation with them to knock it off.

    2. CACandace44:46

       Hi Mel, it's Candace. I listened to the episode about people pleasing and absolutely loved it. I've tried the strategy of taking a pause before answering more than once. My question is, how do you handle family members who won't accept a pause or a delayed response? What happens when instead of allowing you a pause, the person gets combative or aggressive? How do you stop the guilt from forcing you to answer?

    3. MRMel Robbins45:11

       Candace, thank you for this question. Um, you know, one thing you might want to do, Candace, is also go and listen to the episode we did about attachment styles, because you might be dealing with somebody who has an anxious attachment style, and we had an incredibly amazing expert and doctor on that episode. She teaches about, uh, attachment styles, and that framework might help you and said family member. So, that's the first thing that comes to mind. The second thing that comes to mind is, I want to make sure that when you say the person gets aggressive, that they're not crossing over into abusive. There's a big difference between somebody getting triggered when you go silent in saying, "I need time," and them feeling anxious that they're going to lose you, or they need to stay connected to you, or they got to control you in this moment

14. 46:04 – 48:54

    Here’s what a person with anxious attachment needs to hear from you.

    1. MRMel Robbins46:04

       of uncertainty, and somebody being abusive. Uh, abusive, you need to get some help. If you're dealing with somebody who's clingy and annoying, that's anxious attachment style. I know it because I have it, and my husband often needs a pause when we're kind of in a difficult conversation. So here's the thing. You said the word guilt, and that's why I think you're dealing with an attachment style thing where you need time to process and this family member, like, wants an answer now, and so they get, like, and then you feel bad that they're, like, hounding you about this. And so, you have to double down on your needs, and here's what I would recommend. I'm going to give you a script that you can take and make your own, and when you request a pause, you're in a conversation, you say, "I need to think about it," here's what you're going to do, okay? "I want to change this frustrating dynamic between us, and because you come at me, I need a pause because I feel scared." And here's the tactic you're going to use, okay? Here's the thing that a person with anxious attachment style needs to hear from you. "I need a pause, and here's my promise. My promise is I will give you an answer in an hour. My promise is I will give you an answer in the morning. And if you want to change this dynamic between us, like I want to change it, I want to have a better, healthier connection, I don't want to fight like this, I want to be able to have these conversations, I need you to not act like that. I need you to not use that tone of voice. I need you to respect and trust me when I say I need a pause, because I'm just going to continue to take a pause, and I am going to tell you how much time I need in order to give you an answer." And what I'm doing is I am helping you use a bridge. So, you know like when you're dropping a little kid off at daycare? What all the experts say that you should do if a kid has separation anxiety is you should say, "You're going to have a great day, and I'll see you at 5:00." You're now creating a bridge to when you're coming back.And so if you're dealing with somebody that gets intense or pushy, or uses a terrible tone of voice, or guilts you to make up your mind, do da-da-da-da, pressures you, you need to create a bridge. "I need to pause, I need to take a moment and collect myself. I'll be back in an hour to talk about this. I will let you know in the morning." Because now,

15. 48:54 – 59:35

    Need to have a conversation with someone who’s triggered easily?

    1. MRMel Robbins48:54

       you have let this person know that you are coming back, and so if this is a trigger for them, you are also helping to repair this idea that people that care about you come back. But they got to hold up their end of the bargain. They got to realize that their tone of voice, the way they're behaving in this conversation, is not acceptable, and that's why you need to pause. And the thing that I want you to understand is you've probably been locked in this dynamic for a while and you're now doing something different, so you probably have been locked in a dynamic where they want an answer, you don't have an answer, they start to raise their voice, you then "blah-lah-lah-lah" an answer. This was me and my husband, like, 'cause I grew up with a parent that erupted when they got frustrated, and so I erupt when I got frustrated. I'm working on it, but my husband then shuts down. And the second that you shift the dynamic, people tend to get more emotionally triggered. And so when you say, "Look, this is exactly why I'm doing this, because I don't want you yelling at me anymore, and I need time to think and you need time to calm down. And so I promise you, we will talk about this in the morning, and I love you for respecting the fact that you need time to calm down and I need time to think, and we will resolve this when we're both a little more clear-headed." That's it. You can do this. Our final question comes from a woman named Carla, and this question is so good because it helps me explain the real reason why we need to have difficult conversations.

    2. CACarla50:34

       Hi, Mel. It's Carla. Can you give me advice on how to approach your partner, friends, family members who have trauma, insecurities, or mental health issues without trying to change them or fix them? I absolutely love your podcast and it's helped me tremendously. Thanks, Mel.

    3. MRMel Robbins50:52

       Carla, I absolutely love you and your question, and I think it's going to help us all tremendously. And what I want to say to you, Carla, is that this is why difficult conversations are important, because at the end of the day, it's not about fixing other people, it's about improving dynamics between people that leave you feeling disempowered, worried, or afraid. That's what it's about. It's really not about the other person. So whether you're having a conversation with a friend that goes off the rails at you because you don't call them back, or you're having a conversation with your boss because you're upset about something, it's not really about the friend, it's not really about the boss or getting more money, it's about you accessing your own self-expression, it's about you finding the courage to make requests so that you feel supported, respected, and empowered, and it's about you expressing concern or holding boundaries for what you will accept and what you won't accept in your life. And that's why these conversations matter, because without finding the courage to fully express your highest, most self-expressed self, you will know that you're not reaching your potential. You will feel that disruption and that discomfort of knowing that there's something that you need to say that you haven't said, and I don't want that for you. And when it comes to family members that you need to have a difficult conversation with, particularly if you're dealing with a family member that is not taking care of themselves, you have to do that in the lane of boundaries, and you have to do that, um, not from a place, you're right, of trying to fix somebody, because we can't fix other people. We can only express how their behavior or lack of behavior makes us feel. What comes to mind right now is this example from a long time ago in my life, but it's still very much relevant. When I was in my 20s and Chris and I had just met, and we were newly engaged, I met a woman who I became really good friends with at work, and it became very clear that she was struggling with disordered eating, and that became very, very serious when her boyfriend broke up with her. And for months, she was complaining about the boyfriend, she was complaining about the way that she looked, she was complaining about her body, and I was seeing her wither away. And I would listen, and I would listen, and then I would offer support, and then I would ask her if she thought she should speak to her therapist. I would ask her if she was worried about, um, her mental health or her, uh, eating situation or lack of eating situation, and she would deflect it, and that would make me feel uncomfortable, and I didn't know how to bring it up, and I was only in my 20s, and I'd never really dealt with anything like this, and I didn't know how to support her. And then finally, I looked at her one day, and I said, "I love you. I'm profoundly worried about you, and I feel helpless every time you complain about this relationship that's been over for months and I see you not taking care of yourself. And here's my request. You're no longer allowed to talk about this with me because you're not doing anything to change it. I will be here to hang out with you, I'll talk about work with you, I'll talk about the books we're reading with you, but I am no longer available..."... For you to vent about this, because you're not doing anything. The second you get into therapy, the second you seek treatment, the second you move on, I'm here to support you. But I feel like by listening to you, I am part of the problem." She cut me out of her life. Uh, she didn't want to hear it. She got a different job, like full monty. But I'll tell you something. Several years later, and I'm talking probably 10, 15 years later, she reached out via Facebook Messenger and said that conversation was so confronting, and she didn't know how to handle it, but it was a tipping point that got her into treatment. And so people don't change until they're ready to change. But that doesn't mean that you can't have a conversation about your boundaries, and you need to. If somebody is acting in a way where it's scaring you, you need to say something. If somebody's behavior is really alarming you, you can draw boundaries. You know, "I'm not going to give you money unless you go into treatment. I am not going to listen to how depressed you are unless you get back on your medication. I am not going to let you rant about Dad, who you've been divorced from for 10 years. Mom, you need to fricking move on with your life. I'm not here for that. I'm here for you and your future and the healthy you and the happy you." You can be a stand for that without trying to fix someone. And oftentimes, all of us dancing around on eggshells is keeping somebody in that place. Sometimes they need you to be the stronger one. Not to tell them what to do, but to say, "I'm not going to sit here and watch this happen. But the second that you need somebody to drive you to rehab, the second that you need somebody to pay for your therapist, the second that you need somebody to hold your hand through this process, I will be there. But I'm not going to stand by your side as you fall." That is how you talk to somebody. You talk about your feelings, you talk about your fears, you talk about what you're willing to do and what you're no longer willing to do, and then the other person gets to make a choice. That's how you have that conversation. Because at the end of the day, that's what these conversations are about, you being your best and highest, most expressed version of yourself. And that's what I want for you. You know, look, you know what you need to do. The hardest part is starting the conversation. But the longer you put it off, the more uncomfortable it's going to be. It just builds and builds and builds. Just know it's not going to go perfectly. That's okay. Finding the courage, getting the conversation done, it is so much better than perfect. Your health is worth it. Your confidence is worth it. Your relationship is worth it. And you know what? It might just turn out way better than you ever expected. And it will turn out better than you expected, because now you have the tools to empower you to make it better than you're fearing right now. And one more thing, in case nobody else tells you today, I want to tell you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in that courage inside of you, that you can tap into it. You can express yourself. You can do this. You can face the hard stuff. Now, five, four, three, two, one, go do it. Oh, one more thing. It's the legal language. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. It is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. (instrumental music) Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe, 'cause I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you. So make sure you subscribe. Mwah.

Episode duration: 59:35