Don’t Argue or Fight With a Narcissist… Do This Instead (#1 Narcissism Expert)

1. 0:00 – 2:48

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      There is so much content out there about how to spot a narcissist.

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:04

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:04

      What do you do once you realize you either have a parent who's one, or you're in a relationship with somebody?

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:10

      People don't like the suggestion I'm about to make-

   5. MRMel Robbins0:12

      (laughs)

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:12

      ... and I'm aware they don't like it, and I don't care, I'm gonna make it, which is what I call...

   7. MRMel Robbins0:17

      Ooh.

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:18

      These dynamics, this relationship is not going to change. It's not that you're agreeing with their behavior, it's that you're leaning into the understanding that this is it. What's step two? This is the worst part of this whole process, is- What we lose in these relationships is ourselves, our entire sense of self, authenticity. You need to be comfortable with yourself.

   9. MRMel Robbins0:44

      It's hard for somebody like me because, you know, Dr. Ramani, I'm like, "But anybody can change."

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula0:48

       Uh, anyone can change. A narcissistic person won't change. (upbeat music)

   11. MRMel Robbins0:58

       Hey, it's Mel. I'm so glad you're here with me today. It is such an honor to spend some time with you right now. And I just want to acknowledge you for choosing to listen to something that will help you create a better life. I think that's super cool and I love spending time with you. If you're a new listener to The Mel Robbins Show, welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm on a mission to empower and inspire you with tools and the expert resources that you need to create a better life. And one thing that can really trip you up is having to deal with a difficult person. I mean, just think about what a pain in the rear end it is, because all it does is take one person who's abrasive or mean or negative or has a short temper to ruin your day. I mean, don't even get me started about some of the jerks that are on planes these days. In fact, just a couple of days ago, I was coming back from a trip with our son, Oakley, and this guy sitting behind us and a woman standing in the aisle broke out in a screaming match. And the woman went and took a swing at the guy, and she ended up hitting my son, Oakley, instead. Luckily, the woman not only missed the guy that she was swinging at, but she merely just grazed Oakley, and that's when mama bear Mel Robbins jumped up and was like, "All right, that's enough. You two calm down. Enough of this." And boom, they did. Now, the thing about strangers being difficult is that, you know, when the fight is over and everybody calms down, it's easy to shake them off because it's a stranger, and you're gonna walk off the plane and you're never gonna see that person again. But what if the difficult person is your mother or one of your kids

2. 2:48 – 4:19

   You know that difficult person in your life; let’s talk about it.

   1. MRMel Robbins2:48

      or your boss or- (shudders) ... your ex? They're long gone but you still have to see them all the time because you guys are co-parenting your kids together? Oh my God. Or the difficult person is your partner? I mean, cutting this person out of your life isn't an option. And when you walk off the plane, they're gonna follow you. So the question is, how do you keep your mindset positive? How do you keep your goals, your priorities, your happiness front and center, and not let a difficult person in your life rock you? Well, today, you're going to learn from a renowned psychologist, professor, and bestselling author, for how to stay in your power and your purpose no matter who you have to deal with in your life or what mood they happen to be in today. And boy oh boy, are you going to love this. And all those difficult people? (laughs) They have no idea what's about to hit 'em. 'Cause as much as I hate to admit this, you and I both know there's a lot of toxic behavior that we both have to deal with in our day-to-day life. Whether it's someone who's passive-aggressive, or they give you the silent treatment, or they speak to you in a disrespectful tone of voice, or they're constantly erupting 'cause they can't deal with their emotions, or someone who makes you feel like a doormat. Well, our expert today is going to teach you how to not only deal with these situations, but also how to heal from the damage that they can cause you. So whether you're dealing with a friend whose behavior is toxic or you're reeling from the impact of a narcissistic ex, you're

3. 4:19 – 5:57

   How to set healthy boundaries with the people in your life.

   1. MRMel Robbins4:19

      gonna get the tools, tactics, and decades of research from the world-renowned expert and clinical psychologist, Dr. Ramani Divarsla. The title of her newest bestselling book is It's Not You, and she's also the host of the hit podcast, Navigating Narcissism. Now, I absolutely love Dr. Ramani, and I want to tell you a little bit about her and the impact that she's made on my life before we hop into the conversation. Now, I first met her years ago when she appeared as an expert on my daytime talk show, and she has taught me absolutely everything that I needed to know about narcissism. Now, before I met Dr. Ramani, I didn't know anything about the subject. I just knew that I had this person in my life who was extraordinarily difficult because they have a very narcissistic personality style. And what I've learned from Dr. Ramani has not only helped me heal from this situation, it has helped me have extremely healthy boundaries with this person, and it has been night and day in this relationship ever since. And here are some of the top three things that I have personally learned from Dr. Ramani that have helped me. Number one, narcissism is a type of personality that can be especially difficult to deal with, because somebody with this personality really does believe that everything is about them. The second thing that I learned that helped me a lot is understanding that the person that's like this wasn't born this way. See, a narcissistic personality is developed

4. 5:57 – 9:04

   Are narcissists born or are they made?

   1. MRMel Robbins5:58

      because of childhood trauma or because of a parenting style....where the parent makes the child believe that they are better than everybody else, that they are entitled. You know people like this. And the third thing that I learned from her is that a narcissist will never, ever, ever, ever change, because they don't want to. And that's kind of a hard thing to accept, and it's why you need to focus on changing how you deal with them. And that's the single biggest takeaway that I have learned from Dr. Ramani, which is that for years, I felt so much pain around difficult people because I thought I was doing something wrong. And I also, being a reasonable person, couldn't understand, why would this person act this way? Why- why wouldn't they change when they can see how much this hurts me, when I'm asking them to do things? And it wasn't until she taught me that, here I am realizing, hoping that a difficult person would change, that hope was actually keeping me from changing. Holy cow, Dr. Ramani flipped the script on me, and she's gonna do the same thing with you today. And she is here with the tools, decades of research and takeaways that have made her one of the leading experts on narcissism and difficult personalities on the planet. She is gonna tell you exactly what you need to do when you're dealing with somebody that's very difficult. And do me a favor. As you listen, will you please be generous in sharing this episode with people that you love? Anyone in your life that's dealing with a difficult person, they've been complaining to you about it, or you're seeing it happen and it bothers you, whether that's somebody at work or you think, "They're definitely dating a narcissist," send them this episode. Because it will not only give them the resources and expert counsel that they need, but it will wake them up to the reality of the situation that they're in, and that is the single greatest gift that you could give them. All righty. You ready? I know I am. So let's jump in. Dr. Ramani, I'm so excited that you're spending so much time with us-

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:09

      It's my pleasure.

   3. MRMel Robbins8:09

      ...because your new book, It's Not You, I feel like this is the book the world needs. Because there is so much content out there about how to spot a narcissist, but not enough information about, what do you do once you realize you either have a parent who's one, or you're in a relationship with somebody, and understand the impact that it has on you.

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:30

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You know, it's funny you say that 'cause it even, when I think back in the making of the book... Listen, we go online. Th- The, it's almost like it's more sexy content to talk about the, the why, the, "Why do they do this? Why do they do that? What's this? What are the five signs of-"

   5. MRMel Robbins8:44

      (laughs) .

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula8:44

      "...identifying a narcissist." That's the- That's sort of the hot content. But the problem is, is that it keeps digging people into a hole. Once again, we're more fascinated by them than we are with not only how this is affecting us, but who are we because we had to hide ourselves in order to stay in these relationships. This idea of

5. 9:04 – 11:37

   This conversation on narcissism is unlike anything you have ever heard.

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:04

      the tale of the hunt is always told by the hunter, never the lion. It is that the hunter always gets to tell the story. And it's w- And, and the story of narcissism, even in the annals of mental health, books about narcissism have always been about the narcissist.

   2. MRMel Robbins9:18

      It's interesting you use the word hunt.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:20

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins9:22

      It feels very deliberate.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:24

      Yeah.

   6. MRMel Robbins9:24

      And so as you're listening to Dr. Ramani in this conversation today, I, I, I would love for you to set the table more about this proverb of the hunter-

   7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:36

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MRMel Robbins9:36

      ...versus the lion.

   9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:37

      Yeah.

   10. MRMel Robbins9:38

       So that the person listening can locate themselves-

   11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:41

       Mm-hmm. Yep.

   12. MRMel Robbins9:41

       ...inside of that dynamic.

   13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula9:43

       I think the proverb goes so deep, right? "The tale of the hunt is always told by the hunter and never the lion," is that there is a, there's... It can feel at the most extreme, like a very predatory relationship. Predatory in the sense of they're stealing your sense of self. They are making you exist for them. And it is such a seamless, quiet, gradual transition that when you finally look up and realize, "Whoa, I am entirely living in their psychological service and to appease them," you're like, "How the heck did this happen? 'Cause I was actually a pretty autonomous person before I met this person. I knew who I was. I'm not even sure who I am anymore." That's what I mean by the hunt. They, in essence, are hunting your sense of self. They are taking it and using it in their service. And that's why that, that proverb had such meaning, and we always talk about... It's always the hunter that gets to regale everyone with their tale. "Let me tell you how I did this, and let me tell you how I did that. And I'm so heroic, and I had to do this and this and this." But we don't really talk about the experience of what it's like, even when we're strong, like a lion-

   14. MRMel Robbins10:55

       Mm.

   15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula10:55

       ...to be stalked and staked out and cornered, and despite all our strength, because they're using very different weapons than our claws and muscles and all the things we've got too, because they're using something as focused as a gun. They will take us out. That's why.

   16. MRMel Robbins11:17

       I'm, I'm processing what you're saying and thinking about relationships in my own life where I have someone in my life who has a narcissistic personality style.

   17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins11:29

       And I think there's a fundamental mistake that I'm sure everybody makes, I know I've made it, which is presuming that everybody thinks likes you, presuming that everybody

6. 11:37 – 12:55

   Do not make this one mistake in your relationships.

   1. MRMel Robbins11:37

      loves like you do.

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:38

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins11:38

      Presuming that everybody has the same level of self-awareness-

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:42

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins11:42

      ...or intention.

   6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:43

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MRMel Robbins11:43

      And so you can be going about your life thinking that the people in your life are other lions.

   8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:51

      Correct.

   9. MRMel Robbins11:52

      And yet they are viewing you very differently.

   10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula11:54

       That's right. That's exactly right.

   11. MRMel Robbins11:56

       And I love that you're also picking a proverb that represents us as a lion-

   12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:03

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins12:03

       ...because you're right. Lions are very strong.

   14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:06

       Mm-hmm.

   15. MRMel Robbins12:06

       And the message in your book, loud and clear, It's Not You, is also that it is possible...... to recover and to heal.

   16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:15

       Hun- 100%. And when you're in the middle of the storm, you think it's never gonna stop raining. This book is really that weather forecast, that I promise you it will. And even when you're in the middle of it, there's things you can do to get yourself to that sunny day, to your true sense of self.

   17. MRMel Robbins12:29

       Well, I really relate to the title, It's Not You, because I think the most predominant thing that I've seen for myself in being in relationships with people with a narcissistic personality style-

   18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:41

       Mm-hmm.

   19. MRMel Robbins12:42

       ... or in listening very closely to a friend or a family member who is in one-

   20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula12:49

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MRMel Robbins12:50

       ... is that you do think it's you. You think you're the problem, or at least that's

7. 12:55 – 13:40

   If you are in a toxic relationship, I want you to hear this.

   1. MRMel Robbins12:55

      the way that I thought, that if only I were a better this or a better that, then this person would change. And so understanding that it's not you, that to me gives me a sense of hope, that if it's not me, then maybe if I focus on me, I can heal from this.

   2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:11

      That's exactly right. And I think that too that the, the, the, the mistake is maybe if I'm a better daughter, better partner, better mother, better worker, whatever better, you know, writer, whatever the better is what one wants to be, the error is thinking that it will change them. At best, what it might do is make you a better source of supply.

   3. MRMel Robbins13:38

      What do you mean by that?

   4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:39

      I'm gonna use the example

8. 13:40 – 14:42

   What narcissist supply is and how to avoid filling it.

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:40

      a lot of people give me, okay, 'cause we talk a lot about partners. Let's talk about parents for a minute.

   2. MRMel Robbins13:44

      Yes.

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula13:45

      'Cause even adult children are very much in the- in the thrall of their narcissistic parents. "If only I did this, I visited them more, I called them more, I did this more, I did..." Whatever it may be, okay? Then, 'cause like you, remember, you're on a grail quest that anyone who's had a narcissistic parent ever has, that grail quest started in childhood, right? That's what's so kind of insidious about people who are still struggling with narcissistic parents when they're adults. You're still showing up with the finger-painted picture when you were four saying, "Like, do you like my picture?" Right now, we're doing it with jobs and books and titles and, "Look at my new house," and, "Look at my new car," and, "Look at this baby I have." Right?

   4. MRMel Robbins14:22

      And here's, yeah, grandchildren.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:23

      Right? And, and they're, they're still not breaking out of their sort of selfish haze, which we don't equate with parents, right? So what happens is that the child, the child of the narcissistic parent modifies and shapes and tries to become what the narcissistic parent wants.

9. 14:42 – 16:32

   Do you feel the need to impress your parents, even as an adult?

   1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula14:42

      More quiet, more tidy, better tennis player, better grades, um, more helpful around the house. Sometimes they're even the parent's therapist. They cheer the parent up. Parent's not cheering them up, by the way. But they are like the parent's life coach, like, uh, you know, everything. Well, that's how you became a better source of supply as a kid, and a person has to do this as a kid, as- as a child. The child has no choice but to accede and give into the- what the narcissistic parent apparently wants and needs, basically subjugate themselves to the narcissistic parent, because it's the only way that child is gonna get the absolute essential attachment needs met. That child needs a secure attachment. And when that's not happening just because the parent is being a parent and the child has to modify themselves, they will modify themselves, because the pa- the child doesn't have the luxury of saying, "Oh, my parent's a narcissist, so nothing I'm gonna do is gonna work."

   2. MRMel Robbins15:36

      (laughs)

   3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:36

      They can't divorce the parent.

   4. MRMel Robbins15:38

      Right.

   5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula15:38

      So they've gotta modify themselves. That builds up a muscle in the child, and that muscle that gets built up in the child is that capacity to modify oneself to be what the other person needs to create an attachment. So not only does that become a bad precedent once you start dating, because then you are putty in the narcissistic person's hands, you're shaping yourself to suit them, you remain, again, in that w- way with a parent. You continue to say whatever the equivalent of the finger-painted picture is in adulthood, "And maybe I will show up more, but it's never enough." And if you did live next door to them, then they'll have contempt for you of, "Why are you taking so much of my time?" It's never enough. And so what the person's trying to do in any narcissistic relationship, including with a parent, is we th- we think we're becoming better to change them. When we keep becoming better,

10. 16:32 – 20:04

    Stop trying to change the difficult people in your life.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:32

       we're just-

    2. MRMel Robbins16:32

       Hmm.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula16:32

       ... becoming better supply. We're giving them everything they want. And what the narcissistic person wants is that we anticipate their needs, read their minds, be what they want, never be a source of stress, prop them up, keep our needs and wants quiet, and then boom, you're the perfect source of supply.

    4. MRMel Robbins16:54

       If you're raised by a parent that's narcissistic and conditioned in that way-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:00

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MRMel Robbins17:00

       ... are you more susceptible to being in narcissistic relationships later in life?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula17:06

       You are. You definitely are, for- for no other reason that you've built this muscle up, that accommodation muscle as I call it, right? There's a flexibility a person needs to have and develop if they have a narcissistic parent, or otherwise they're gonna develop pretty severe mental health issues, which does happen to a subset of folks. But by and large what we see, survivors of narcissistic abuse, especially from childhood, are very flexible, very accommodating, because they had to for survival reasons once upon a time. Now, what I do not buy into is this idea that because a person has narcissistic parent or parents that they're more attracted to narcissistic people. That's not the case. What they're more likely to get is stuck in that relationship, right? Narcissistic people are attractive to everyone. Charm, charisma, shiny, interesting, curious, confident, rescuable, whatever we need them to be, they often are that thing. But once it starts getting darker and there's a lot of devaluation and the relationship becomes less healthy, healthier people may be able to muster up in themselves like-This does not feel good.

    8. MRMel Robbins18:17

       Right.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:17

       Like, I don't like this. But the people who had the narcissistic parent are much more likely to say, "Oh, this? This? I, I know this game."

    10. MRMel Robbins18:25

        Right.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:25

        "I know how to do this."

    12. MRMel Robbins18:26

        'Cause you've been making excuses for your parent for so long.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:28

        And you make it... Exactly. So you, the, the, the slide into the trauma bond is much, much s- more seamless and i- it happens automatically because the, "Oh, I just have to be more." Got it. Of course. I have to earn love. That makes sense.

    14. MRMel Robbins18:41

        So as an expert on this topic and a practicing clinician, what are the signs that you have experienced narcissistic emotional abuse?

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula18:52

        Self-blame, self-doubt, confusion, anxiety, a sense of helplessness, frustration, powerlessness, problems with sleep, problems with concentration, d- decrements or, eh, lack of self-care of any kind, feeling selfish if you do anything for yourself, being on edge, being hypervigilant, always ready to fix, feeling you need to be, you have to change yourself to please other people, a sense of loneliness, a sense of isolation, a sense that you're weird. That's just the short list.

    16. MRMel Robbins19:32

        Wow. And what is the first step if s- you're listening to this and you're going, "Yep, narcissistic parents," or, "Yep, I survived a narcissistic spouse," or, "I'm with one," or, "I've been in a relationship with one," and you're like, "I exhibit all those things." Like, what's the first step that somebody needs to take in order to start to heal from that kind of damage?

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula19:57

        You gotta see it for what it is. And so that takes us to the place of radical acceptance, right? Radical acceptance is

11. 20:04 – 21:17

    Why radical acceptance is your first step towards healing.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula20:04

       the awareness that this is not going to change. By this, I mean their behavior, these dynamics, this relationship is not going to change, number one. Number two part of radical acceptance is these things they do, these hurtful things, you radically accepting doesn't mean they're not gonna hurt. When somebody invalidates you, that you believe you loved or are supposed to love, when they invalidate you, when they insult you, when they criticize you, when they shame you, it will hurt. So don't think that radical acceptance means that all of that goes away. Nor is radical acceptance... It's not a magic pill. Doesn't mean it's all gonna get better. It's not that you're signing off on their behavior. It's not that you're agreeing with their behavior. It's that you're, you're leaning into the understanding that this is it. This is not going to change. And then the summit of radical acceptance is, this is not my fault.

    2. MRMel Robbins21:01

       Mm.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:02

       But I'm great. I'm glad when we can at least get the client to say, "Okay, this is not gonna change." Why? Because it takes away one of the biggest barriers to healing.

    4. MRMel Robbins21:10

       Which is?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:10

       Hope.

    6. MRMel Robbins21:12

       Hold on. Let me see if I-

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:14

       (sighs)

    8. MRMel Robbins21:14

       ... understand what you're saying.

12. 21:17 – 25:07

    Your biggest barrier to healing is this (it’s not what you think).

    1. MRMel Robbins21:17

       Hoping that somebody that has a narcissistic personality style, hoping that they can change, that is the biggest barrier?

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:26

       Yes.

    3. MRMel Robbins21:27

       To you healing?

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:28

       Yep.

    5. MRMel Robbins21:29

       Why?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula21:30

       Because now your psychological resources are still invested in the idea of them changing. So until we can get that off the table, you are going to still have way too much of you invested in something that's never gonna happen. Which means that there's not (laughs) enough of you left to work on your healing, your process of individuation, your process of finally getting to, you know, live in, in yourself rather than in service to them. Does that make sense?

    7. MRMel Robbins22:00

       It makes a lot of sense because for decades with a particular person in my life, I hoped that they would change.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:08

       Yes.

    9. MRMel Robbins22:09

       And I would twist myself in knots and show up differently and try a little bit harder and do this and do that and constantly think about it, and what was always there in the background was the hope that things could be different.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:23

        Correct.

    11. MRMel Robbins22:23

        And it wasn't until I met you-

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:27

        (laughs)

    13. MRMel Robbins22:27

        ... three years ago, or four years ago now, and you said, "They are not changing, period."

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:34

        Mm-mm.

    15. MRMel Robbins22:34

        "They're not even aware that they have this personality style and they don't care."

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:38

        They don't care.

    17. MRMel Robbins22:39

        "And there is nothing that you can do to change this."

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:44

        Mm-mm.

    19. MRMel Robbins22:45

        And when you said that, it was very interesting. I could see it for what it was.

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:50

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MRMel Robbins22:50

        It's almost like, you know, when somebody says about themselves, "Well, I just am in the way that I am."

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula22:55

        Mm-hmm.

    23. MRMel Robbins22:56

        And people in my life have always said, "Well, that person, Mel, is just the way that they are. That's just who they are." I could never accept th- that-

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula23:04

        Mm-mm.

    25. MRMel Robbins23:04

        ... because I wanted it to be different.

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula23:06

        Correct.

    27. MRMel Robbins23:07

        And you're right. It was the hope that it could be better, the hope that this person would change, the hope that things could look different that kept me trying so much.

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula23:18

        Correct.

    29. MRMel Robbins23:20

        Even though I think deep down, I knew that it wasn't gonna make a difference.

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula23:23

        Right. Mm-hmm.
13. 25:07 – 26:37

    Why do people stay in unhealthy, toxic relationships?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:07

       people stay because they think it can change?

    2. MRMel Robbins25:08

       Well, you're the expert. Why do people stay?

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:10

       And I'll say-

    4. MRMel Robbins25:10

       I mean, I can tell you why I've been-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:12

       Yeah.

    6. MRMel Robbins25:12

       ... in this relationship for a long time, but-

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula25:14

       S- I think that that's part of it, and, but I, I think that even when hope gets lifted, or taken out, radical acceptance comes, people still need to stay. And the, and the reasons for that are often things like practical factors, money, shelter, health insurance, family court, co-parenting minor children, not wanting to share custody with someone who's not up to it, but the courts don't care. Um, it could be duty and obligation. It could be stigmas against divorce in, within a, a cultural system. There are so many other factors, and the, the challenges, those factors are very real, even when they don't feel real. Like, duty and obligation are still perceptions and constructs, but they are very real. It is challenging because to eradicate the hope and that this is how it's gonna be, and yet you always have to be in it, what happens then, and this is the hardest part, you say, "What's step one?" Radical acceptance. What's step two? And this is the worst part of this whole process, is grief. Because grief, we g- when we think of the word grief, we think of someone who's died, right? Someone dies and we have grief. They're no longer in our life. We can't talk to them in the same way. Where there is a loss, they're not part of our routines in the same way. That, we think of grief as loss. Sometimes people will extend grief to a breakup or

14. 26:37 – 28:28

    We need to normalize grief in these specific situations.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula26:37

       a, or a, like a divorce or something like that, but it matters here more than I've ever seen the word matter. Because not only is there a l- it's a loss, sometimes it's a loss of a relationship, some people do walk away from these relationships, but what people lose when they give up the hope, when they go to radical acceptance, is they lose a narrative. They lose a sense of a future. They lose a sense of belonging. The hope is what was keeping this person going all these years. And that's why even as a therapist, I don't just go in there and pull the hope out. The goal is to build a huge scaffold around the client before the h- the hope gets lifted, so that then the person can sit in that, because the grief is monumental. If done right, healing done right-

    2. MRMel Robbins27:21

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula27:22

       ... means a cascade of grief, the likes of which you can't imagine, because it's a grief that never really goes away. You don't get a second crack at childhood. You don't get another parent. A lot of these things don't get to happen again. And so, you're having to live with, and these people have not died. Talk to anyone who's gone through a divorce from a narcissistic person, who, until the end, will say, "They're still, I'm still attracted to them. There's still a part of them I love, but this was not good for me, and I could see it, and I saw it wasn't gonna change, and the hope was gone." And then that narcissistic person goes and meets someone new inside of the first week. That's grief.

    4. MRMel Robbins28:00

       You know, on the topic of hope and radical acceptance, um, I think there's a bunch of things that you hope for.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:06

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MRMel Robbins28:07

       You hope for a behavior change.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:09

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MRMel Robbins28:10

       You hope that there's something that you can do that will somehow make things better.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:16

       Mm-hmm.

    10. MRMel Robbins28:17

        You hope to feel loved.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:20

        Yep.

    12. MRMel Robbins28:21

        And you also hope, at times, for an apology.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:24

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Let's talk about that.

15. 28:28 – 32:49

    Is “closure” really the thing that we need when we end a relationship?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula28:28

       Because that apology, there's two things that really make the grief worse in narcissistic abuse. The first is the lack of closure. Closure is that moment when, it's the deathbed confession, it's the, "I hurt you," it's the, "I should have treated you better. You deserve more." Whatever it was, some awareness that they did wrong by you. You're not gonna get closure, number one, in a narcissistic relationship. But the second piece, and this is what really, really harms survivors, is the lack of justice. It's not fair. These things feel incredibly unfair. The family continues to rally around the narcissistic person and uphold them and save the best seat for them at the wedding. The friends of you as a couple still stay friends with them, despite them cheating on you seven times, including with someone you knew. The workplace just moves the narcissistic emotional abuser to another office, and they get promoted. The narcissistic, uh, e- emotional abuser who left you finds a new person who's 30 years younger than you and gets engaged inside of six months. It doesn't feel fair. And if you look at Judith Herman's work on, her most recent book on trauma and healing, she really talks about how injustice is such an impediment to healing from trauma.

    2. MRMel Robbins29:50

       Mm.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula29:50

       We can heal from trauma so much better if the, if the story around it feels just. I hate to say it, but if the narcissistic person fails, takes a tumble, um, gets a public humiliation, it makes healing so much easier.

    4. MRMel Robbins30:08

       I'm so happy you brought this up, because it makes me think of somebody in my life who, uh, went through a divorce, gosh, close to a decade ago, and she is still-

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:22

       Mm-hmm.

    6. MRMel Robbins30:23

       ... hung up on the ex.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:24

       Yep.

    8. MRMel Robbins30:25

       ... the ex was moving in a girlfriend to the family house, 20 years younger, almost immediately. Lifelong friends now rallying around him.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:38

       Yep.

    10. MRMel Robbins30:39

        She, to this day, cannot get over it.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:44

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    12. MRMel Robbins30:45

        And I have always looked at the situation and thought-

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula30:51

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MRMel Robbins30:51

        ... like, this was 10 years ago. You're not that weak of a human being. You understand it, you know that this spouse has a narcissistic personality style-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:01

        Right.

    16. MRMel Robbins31:01

        ... your kids know that the spouse has a narcissistic personality style. You know that nothing is gonna change-

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:07

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MRMel Robbins31:07

        ... and you just explained why she cannot let it go.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:09

        That's right, she can't let it go. It's, it's-

    20. MRMel Robbins31:10

        Because it doesn't feel-

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:12

        Yeah. It, no.

    22. MRMel Robbins31:12

        There's no justice.

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:13

        No, because you, see, I would argue your friend is fully at radical acceptance. She knows what he's about. Nothing he does surprises her, right?

    24. MRMel Robbins31:19

        Correct.

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula31:20

        But the peace and the cognitive dissonance created by them continually being rewarded and rewarded, that is a huge barrier to healing. There's actually no sort of magic piece to that. I've said in the past, "Listen, the ultimate justice is that they still have to be them." But you know what? To them, if they're living large with their much younger spouse in the house and the money's coming in, they genuinely believe they've won. And because the other person in the relationship had a full complement of empathy, and kindness, and goodness, and they feel the wounds, the person who was harmed by the narcissist is hurt and carries that as a real thing. The narcissistic person just merely found new supply, which is all you were in the first place anyhow, and it feels awful. And there is no quick fix to that except to identify it as an injustice. It's not a, "You need to get over it. Oh, come on," this, that, and the other. It's, "This is real," and it is... And part of the radical acceptance process is how unfairly this narcissism thing plays out in the world at large. It's why I do what I do, because frankly, I'm tired of watching them get away with it. And so people say, "Come on, Ramani, you're not gonna stop a bunch of tech billionaires and all that from, and their narcissistic selves from ruling the world." I said, "That's never my goal." They say, "I use the products that they create," right? So, but I'll tell you what I'm trying to do. So I'm trying to steer people away from

16. 32:49 – 34:40

    Dr. Ramani wants you to avoid this one type of relationship.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula32:49

       relationships with them. They wanna go out there and be the, the, the, the emperors of the universe, great. Thank you for making my life a little bit more convenient. Please don't hurt other p- Like, please stay away from them. They're not relationship material. They're make-a-fabulous-app material, and let's just keep them there, okay? Because this is- They're not made for this. And so I think that it's really to keep people from getting in these relationships, but the injustice piece is one of the single greatest thing. That hope, hope and justice holds people back, and it can really make the grief a stumbling place, to which, you know, again, the loss of hope, the experience of grief, the injustice all fuel one of the major fallouts of narcissistic abuse, which is rumination.

    2. MRMel Robbins33:37

       It never fails, I always learn something from you. I'm so grateful that you're here. As you're listening to Dr. Ramani, aren't you grateful she's here too? And I wanna take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring this amazing information to you at zero cost. Don't you dare go anywhere. We'll be right back. Welcome back. I'm so glad you're here with me today. I'm your friend, Mel, and I'm here with Dr. Ramani Divarsla. She is the world's leading expert and researcher on narcissism. We're talking about her brand new best-selling book, It's Not You, and we're talking about the new research in that book.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:11

       Let's talk a little bit about rumination because I think it's one of the most important things to understand about healing from narcissistic abuse. It relates to the friend you just talked about.

    4. MRMel Robbins34:18

       Absolutely.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:19

       Rumination is the (imitates alarm sound) can't stop thinking, can't stop thinking. Now, here's where rumination gets interesting. One thing the research tells us, even from the times of Charles Darwin, we have argued that rumination has a function, right? It does.

    6. MRMel Robbins34:36

       What is it?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:37

       Ru- The function of rumination is a solution.

17. 34:40 – 38:07

    The surprising function of rumination.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula34:41

       Think on something long enough and you'll come to the solution, right? "Okay, da-da-da-da. Oh, got it!" And then you do the thing and the rumination (sings) and you feel better. The problem with narcissistic abuse is ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, ruminate, no solution. Ruminate, no solution, ruminate, no solution. So where many other ruminators are getting to solutions, the narcissistically abused ruminator just keeps hitting the same wall, which fuels powerlessness, and rumination without a solution is depression.

    2. MRMel Robbins35:22

       Wow.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:23

       So you see what's happening is that that's why the survivors look- they look depressed. When they come into a clinician's office, rumination is a central part of the depression profile. In fact, it, you know, Darwin and others have argued that all that rumination, it actually leads the person to almost turn inward and becomes part of the sort of the process of trying to find solutions in depression, but it gets the person stuck, stuck, stuck in the cycle.

    4. MRMel Robbins35:45

       I- I- I'm thinking about this person, and they have isolated themselves.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:49

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

    6. MRMel Robbins35:50

       They, uh, are basically this once vibrant-

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:54

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MRMel Robbins35:54

       ... like, amazing person is literally living a very, very small life-

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula35:59

       Mm-hmm. Yep.

    10. MRMel Robbins36:00

        ... is stuck in the thinking. The last time I saw this person, uh, she was thinking about what's gonna happen at her daughter's wedding-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:08

        Yeah.

    12. MRMel Robbins36:09

        ... when the ex brings a new girl. N- none of... By the way, the daughter's not even engaged.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:13

        And may never get married.

    14. MRMel Robbins36:15

        Right, but I'm saying-

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:17

        Or made love.

    16. MRMel Robbins36:17

        ... you're exactly right, because they're spinning their wheels in isolation on a problem-

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:22

        That has no solution.

    18. MRMel Robbins36:22

        ... that has no solution.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula36:23

        So it becomes depression. So the- the- the tricky bit is rumination is a key part of almost every mental health issue. Anxiety, depression, you name it.But it's, it h- holds a unique spot for survivors of narcissistic abuse, because they're going through something that most people don't understand. Not e- even a lot of therapists don't understand it, but certainly their friends. A lot of people are like, "Come on, get over it, like, he's a terrible guy. You should be happy you're out of it." But they don't feel happy. Find someone you can talk about this, about so many times, until you actually let it out. Probably the best place to do that is therapy. I have clients, I mean, w- I think of some of my clients, and they'll over and over say, "I feel like a loser. I'm telling you this again." I said, "You think you're telling me the same story, but every time you tell it, you've actually put another piece of it down. I'm hearing the difference, you're not." And it, every time they tell the story, we're putting another piece of it down to the point where they finally release it. Friends aren't always the best place to do it, right? 'Cause friends are like, "How many times have you told me this?"

    20. MRMel Robbins37:21

        Well, I'm sick of it. I'm literally like, "I've heard about this crap for 10 years, and you're in therapy, and this is an issue, and it makes me profoundly sad-"

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:30

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    22. MRMel Robbins37:30

        "... to see that this ex has moved on-"

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:33

        Mm-hmm.

    24. MRMel Robbins37:33

        "... and is very happy, doesn't think about you at all, other than to complain-"

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:37

        Mm-hmm.

    26. MRMel Robbins37:37

        "... about any time something with the kids-"

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:39

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MRMel Robbins37:39

        "... and you are living in a mental hole."

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula37:43

        Right, and is still living in service to the partner, so has still not pulled, pulled themselves psychologically out. This is really about pu- pulling out all the connections. Do you know how, like, when you take, like, um, you know, like you take, uh, wallpaper or something off a wall, you leave all those sticky bits? You gotta get in there and get all those sticky bits off.

    30. MRMel Robbins38:02

        Yeah. I wanna take a step back and talk a little bit about the definition

18. 38:07 – 41:36

    What it looks like to be a survivor of narcissistic abuse.

    1. MRMel Robbins38:07

       of being a survivor of narcissistic abuse.

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:12

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    3. MRMel Robbins38:12

       How would you describe someone, or what n- being a survivor of narcissistic abuse is?

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula38:19

       Mm-hmm. So a survivor of narcissistic abuse is, in essence, a survivor of a narcissistic relationship, right? They've experienced all the patterns we've already talked about in the prior episode, the, the devaluing, the minimization, the gaslighting, the manipulation, the domination, the betrayal, the breadcrumbing, all that stuff, like being minimized, devalued, all that. That happens. Those are the behaviors. That's what narcissistic abuse is, by the way. It's the behaviors in the relationship. Being chronically exposed to that and not understanding what the hell is going on leads to a fallout in the person we also talked about, the anxiety, the helplessness, the rumination, the regret, all that stuff. Okay? And so the person's experiencing all these, these negative experiences and don't wanna keep feeling that way.

    5. MRMel Robbins39:06

       Yes.

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula39:07

       It m- it... To be a survivor of a narcissistic relationship or narcissistic abuse is to have all these sorts of negative emotional, physical, cognitive, even spiritual. People r- report a loss of faith, a loss of belief in the world, a loss of trust. All of those things are a byproduct of having gone through one of these relationships, and if a person is not taught what narcissism is, how it shows up in them, what was happening in the relationship, and above all else, being sort of coaxed into radical acceptance, these behaviors are never gonna change. These patterns are never gonna change. You can set a clock by this person. You know, years ago, Mel, I worked with a client who was a tough sell on this, and I did something very unorthodox as a therapist. The person would come in and say, "Uh, dah, dah, dah, I think that this is gonna happen." I said, "No, actually, I think this is what's gonna go down." She said, "There's no way that that's what's gonna go on down." I said, "You wanna make a bet?" And so I, at the time, I had a, a office that was on top of, like, a coffee shop, and it was a pain in the neck for m- It was actually across the street, down and across the street. I mean, it was a very busy road, so it was hard to cross the street.

    7. MRMel Robbins40:16

       Okay.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:17

       So someone would bring me tea would be the greatest thing ever. I said, "I'll make you a bet, and if it goes down the way I say it goes down, you buy me a tea and you bring it to your session." S- This is not how we're supposed to do things, okay?

    9. MRMel Robbins40:29

       (laughs)

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:29

        Board of Psychology, please don't listen.

    11. MRMel Robbins40:31

        If it works, do it.

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:32

        So we did that. By the time I was done, she probably had brought me 60 cups of tea, I think only once did I get it wrong and I had to get the coffee once. It was a bummer, I drove, but got 60 cups of tea.

    13. MRMel Robbins40:45

        So is that somebody who is so disconnected with reality?

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:49

        No, it's, it's the hope.

    15. MRMel Robbins40:49

        Like, what the heck?

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula40:50

        It was the hope. It was the hope. Here's where it got interesting, and I'll always... This is what, to me, the more important part of it. Ended therapy and said, "You know what? Thank you. Thank you for the fact that A, you, this, this entire therapeutic experience cost me hundreds more because of the tea." But she said, "It was your conviction." She's like, "You already had the coaster out for the tea. Like, you were ready for that." 'Cause I know she'd come in with the tea. She usually... She didn't tell me in advance. The tea would show up. I was like... And so she said, "You were so sure, and that assuredness, that conviction, it showed me this had to be a pattern. You weren't, you weren't a, you didn't have a crystal ball. You weren't a future reader, right? You knew this as a pattern." Overtime, she said, "I kind of knew it could

19. 41:36 – 46:50

    Watch out for the patterns in narcissistic relationships.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula41:36

       be the other way." Like, it's almost like she said, "By the 60th cup of tea, I got it." Right? "I saw it, and then was better able to predict what was gonna happen." So m- my point in sharing that is that we, we know this, but the other person needs some... They need a minute. Radical acceptance isn't like, "Here's what narcissism is, and that's them, and look at all these things that happen." In fact, one of the, um, techniques I talk about in the book is something I affectionately call the ick list. And I say to the client, "You need to make no moves in this relationship. Nothing has to change, but I need you to write it all down every time they do something, and if you're not writing it down, I'm writing it down in here and I'm gonna keep it." And over time, this list gets to the point where you're like, "Ugh, this is a pattern." And seeing it in writing makes it more real.

    2. MRMel Robbins42:28

       What you said about hope is genius, because with this particular example that I've just shared with this friend of mine, I personally believe if I were to make a bet that she hopes they get back together.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula42:40

       Correct.

    4. MRMel Robbins42:40

       Uh-And so if this is resonating with you as you're listening, what I wanna know, Dr. Ramani, is if you're holding out hope that that parent's gonna change, if you're holding out hope that things could be different, if you're holding out hope that this person that is narcissistic in your life, that somehow something is going to be different, how do you start to dismantle this thing that you've been holding onto forever that keeps you completely enmeshed in this relationship, in this fricking fantasy in your brain?

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:15

       Part of it is the writing it down. I know it- I know it sounds like a strange thing to suggest, but there's something very different, because euphoric recall is a very real phenomenon-

    6. MRMel Robbins43:23

       What i- what is- euphoric recall? What is that?

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula43:25

       ... in narcissistic relationships. Euphoric recall is, it's almost like a twist on what our minds usually don't do, but in narcissistic relationships, people cherry pick the good stuff. "We- we did have a really nice time in Miami 10 years ago, and they really did like, you know, we- we laughed so much at that TV show." Like, they just, uh, "We, gosh, we, you know, our sex was actually really good." Like, euphoric recall. They pick the good things. That's why writing it down, and writing it down with people who watch the relationship and get the relationship, just getting it all down, because there's times you're not gonna be able to get it down. I've helped a lot of clients write these ick lists. I'm like, "Well, remember that time you told me this?" And they're like, "And remember the time you told me that?" And they keep like, "Oh, yes, I do. I- I'm so sorry. Yes, I get it." And so we pile it all up, and you can't unsee it then, right? It's- it's, you know, it's almost like looking at the 5,000 transgressions of somebody like you're gonna hire. Like, "You do realize if you bring them back, these are all the things he did."

    8. MRMel Robbins44:22

       Right.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula44:22

       An HR person would be like, "Yeah, no, no. We can't, we can't bring this person back." We can bring that, the more we have the data, that's one big piece to dismantling the hope. There's the other thing, and talk about this in the book, is this idea of going into, something I call going into the tiger's cage. Okay? So when a client's like, "No, no, no, no, no. It's going to be different," remember, Mel, a therap- as a therapist, my job is never to be dogmatic and say, "Absolutely not if you d-" I'll say, "Okay." You know, I- I'm always gonna hold space for the client to feel safe to go try something, and that there's no judgment. So they'll say, "No, I- I- I think it's gonna be different." I'm like, "Okay." So-

    10. MRMel Robbins45:01

        I couldn't be a therapist. I'd be like, "You stupid idiot. It is not gonna be different." Like, I literally wanna reach out and grab my friend and strangle some sense into her.

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:09

        I get it.

    12. MRMel Robbins45:09

        I know that sounds like a very violent thing, but it breaks my heart.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:13

        I know, but this tiger's cage piece is I say to them, "Okay, so cage, cat. Now, we're far enough from that cat." You're like, "Is that a cat or is that a tiger?"

    14. MRMel Robbins45:24

        Mm.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula45:25

        Uh, there's only one way to find out. And they'll say, "No, I wanna find out which one it is." I'll say, "Good, go in the cage." Which means have the interaction. Think it's gonna be different. Tell them that the- tell them your good news and think they're gonna be happy for you, or confront them on something, whatever it is. And it pains me as a therapist, 'cause you know how it's gonna go down, right? And they go in and- and invariably, like w- if it was a tiger, what's a tiger gonna do? It's gonna, you know, tear off your arms and legs and tear your throat out. If it's a kitten, well, you just got yourself a new little pet. Sometimes they go in and they have the difficult conversation, I'd say one in 1,000 times. "It's a little kitty."

    16. MRMel Robbins46:04

        All right.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:04

        Like they- they misjudged the person. More often not, I get this torn apart person, and they're saying, it's like a cup of tea, right? "You told me, and I went in there." And I say, "But this is material, so let's break it down." Those kinds of in- almost real time analyses of these things are how we dismantle the hope. I mean, it's almost like an addict in that way, Mel. How many times does it have to pile up before a person hits rock bottom?

    18. MRMel Robbins46:30

        Depends on the person.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:31

        Don't know if it's different. Depends on the person.

    20. MRMel Robbins46:32

        Depends on the person.

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:32

        And so we're, uh, really trying to get the survivor to their rock bottom. Rock bottom is where hope goes away.

    22. MRMel Robbins46:39

        Um, I love the ick list. And one of the reasons why I love this idea of taking and writing down in the physical world-

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula46:49

        Yep.

    24. MRMel Robbins46:49

        ... a list

20. 46:50 – 48:49

    What the “ick list” is and how it can help you overcome narcissistic abuse.

    1. MRMel Robbins46:50

       of all the things this person said or did or didn't do, or whatever it was that gives you the gigantic ick, is that it's in black and white.

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:00

       Correct.

    3. MRMel Robbins47:00

       And I can see in my own life that when I think about another person who got into a relationship where there was a lot of love bombing-

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:12

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MRMel Robbins47:13

       ... and the person they were dating came on way too strong-

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:18

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MRMel Robbins47:18

       ... and huge red flag for me watching. Obviously when you're in the middle of it-

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:23

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MRMel Robbins47:23

       ... you're enjoying the ride-

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:24

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MRMel Robbins47:24

        ... as the person that's getting love bombed, but then the devaluing started-

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:27

        Mm-hmm. Always.

    13. MRMel Robbins47:28

        ... and the lying started, and the discarding started, and then the love bombing comes back.

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:32

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MRMel Robbins47:33

        And I remember being in conversations with this person and they had zero recall of the devaluing. "But, you know, you're- you're only focusing on the good. Remember the time they disappeared for three days? Remember the time where they denied doing drugs and now you're learning they're selling 'em to everybody? Remember the ti-" You know, like, um, all of this stuff, and I think having it in black and white-

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula47:57

        Yeah, it's huge.

    17. MRMel Robbins47:57

        ... is a really good strategy, because I can even think about my own life dealing with, uh, somebody close to me with a narcissistic personality style, and how often I'm like, "Yeah, but five years ago when this was going on, they were really great."

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:11

        Mm-hmm.

    19. MRMel Robbins48:12

        "And they had a hard childhood."

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:14

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MRMel Robbins48:14

        And I wanna keep coming back to the hope piece, because I do see how hoping that something's going to change keeps you trapped.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:25

        Correct.

    23. MRMel Robbins48:26

        And what other strategies are there for somebody that is listening, sees themselves, and is like, "But I do hope they change"?

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:35

        Mm-hmm.

    25. MRMel Robbins48:35

        And- and it's hard for somebody like me because, you know, Dr. Ramani, I'm like, "But anybody can change."

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula48:41

        Uh, anyone can change. A narcissistic person won't change.

    27. MRMel Robbins48:44

        Ooh, that's a big difference. Anybody can change. A narcissistic person

21. 48:49 – 51:34

    Anybody can change; a narcissistic person won’t.

    1. MRMel Robbins48:49

       won't.Ooh. (laughs) That stings. And hoping that they will keeps you trapped.

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula49:00

       Right. And I think that that can't-won't distinction becomes important, but they're saying, "You tell me they can't change, they can't change, they can't change." May- may- maybe that's a languaging issue. I suppose anyone could, but they won't, and I guarantee you they won't.

    3. MRMel Robbins49:16

       You just have a way with words and a way of explaining things, Dr. Ramani, that I so appreciate. So one of the things that I also read about in your new book is this 12-month cleanse, and I wanna take a short break to hear a word from our sponsors. They allow me to bring this amazing information to you at zero cost, and when we return, we are gonna jump into more on how you heal, how you thrive, and she's gonna cover this 12-month cleanse. Stay with us. Hey, it's your friend Mel. I'm so glad that you are still here. Uh, I'm here with Dr. Ramani Divarsla and we are talking all things healing and thriving after being in a relationship with a narcissist. So, Dr. Ramani, how can you address the kind of wounds that you have personally from surviving narcissistic abuse-

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:09

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MRMel Robbins50:09

       ...and still also, like, keep yourself from falling back into a relationship with somebody new that exhibits these behavior?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:16

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    7. MRMel Robbins50:16

       Because I also read in your book that you're sort of more susceptible to this dynamic once you've been in it.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:22

       If you haven't learned about it, right? See, that's the big if-

    9. MRMel Robbins50:25

       Mm-hmm.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula50:25

        ...is like a lot of people might go unseeingly from narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship to narcissistic relationship, because in all of this, they just think, "I'm just getting into bad relationships," or, "I'm just meeting a lot of bad guys." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. This is about narcissism." And, and, and it's n- Narcissism isn't just about the personality of that person. It's really about the tactics that they employ in a relationship and why they're so appealing and then why they're so destabilizing, right? It's both of those things happening. If anything, Mel, I have to tell you, people who have gone through narcissistic relationships, right? And then they're going back out there considering dating again and all of that-

    11. MRMel Robbins51:07

        Yeah.

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:07

        ...they overcorrect. Now, here's one thing I, I-

    13. MRMel Robbins51:10

        What does that mean?

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:11

        I'll tell you in a second. Let me, let me lay out, uh, some groundwork here 'cause people don't like the suggestion I'm about to make and I'm aware they don't like it and I don't care. I'm gonna make it, gonna make it all the days of my life, which is what I call the 12-month cleanse. And the 12-month cleanse means nothing. No dating, no sex, no online dating, no flirty texting, nada,

22. 51:34 – 56:07

    What the 12-month cleanse is and why it is essential for healing.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula51:34

       nothing. One year. And people are like, "Are you out of your mind? I've been lonely for 10 years in this marriage. I haven't even really been touched. They've been touching everyone else, just not me. I wanna feel..." Mm-mm-mm. Now, people say, "I was only with that narcissistic fool for six months. You're telling me six?" I said, "No. If the relationship was under a year, then your cleanse needs to be for as long as the relationship lasted." But if it was, even if it was 30 years, 40 years, one year. One year off. "Why?" you ask. 'Cause people are like, "What is that gonna do?" What we lose in these relationships is ourselves. Our entire sense of self, authenticity, who we are, what we're about, our values, our judgment, our, our s- everything. It's gone. It's gone, right? To build that back up, to figure out do you actually like pepperoni on your pizza? Where do you want the thermostat set? What do you like to watch on TV? How many covers do you want on the blanket? That takes a year. And I'm going for the easy stuff, the pizza toppings and the TV shows. It's when you're feeling sad, where do you wanna take that? It's a year of figuring yourself out, which most people never do in their adult lives-

    2. MRMel Robbins52:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula52:55

       ...by the way. And then you throw in their year of anniversary dates. Your birthday without them, their birthday without them. Holidays, summertime, whatever it is, because every one of those scripts needs to be rewritten over, and you can't do it if there's already someone else in there preying upon and playing upon your tendency to wanna please, even if it's a healthy person. After that year, you've grown more cu- accustomed to being with yourself, because the reflexive play is, listen, there's nothing that feels better than a rebound, right? I'm gonna quickly go in there and have someone send me you're-my-queen nonsense text and I'm gonna get over this. No, you're not, because to me, I understand that's a short-term play.

    4. MRMel Robbins53:39

       Right.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula53:39

       And that's gonna feel really good for a minute. It's like the hair of the dog, right?

    6. MRMel Robbins53:42

       Right.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula53:43

       But what we need people to do is, this is, to me, is a lifelong play. You need to be comfortable with yourself. And every client I could get through that year, and initially they looked at me incredulously, and I said, "Listen, I am not the police. If you decide (laughs) to go and have a relationship in these 12 months, the only thing I'm gonna say is this is gonna prolong this process." The ones who listened got to the other end of that year and said, "Thank you so much." They're like, "Now I am so much more stable." They're still hurting, they were still struggling, but what they didn't do was succumb. And what's happened is they're getting the most essential skill to heal from narcissistic abuse and that's discernment. Discernment... Listen, think of it this way, Mel. When I look and see, I read online, I look how people live their lives, how careful are, is like, "I'm using this specially sourced tea-"

    8. MRMel Robbins54:37

       (laughs)

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula54:37

       "...from a mountaintop in Nepal where only virgin goats would ever go to have sex for the first time." I'm like, "You went through that much damn trouble to get those tea leaves and you are not paying attention to someone love bombing you? Like, be as discerning in your relationships as you are about what you put in your mouth, what you put on your body, your gym, your workouts." Everyone's like, "Wellness, wellness." This is where wellness begins, how you decide who comes into your life. That's discernment, and that's the skill you need a year off to start building that muscle.

    10. MRMel Robbins55:09

        I...I could not agree more. I could not agree more. Can we talk about this, uh, kind of healing process inside a family?

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:20

        Mm-hmm.

    12. MRMel Robbins55:21

        Because let's just say that it's not somebody that has divorced you-

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:27

        Yeah.

    14. MRMel Robbins55:27

        ... or you've broken up with them, and you're kind of grappling with the, "Okay, I gotta dismantle the hope. Then I gotta give up- "

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:33

        Mm-hmm.

    16. MRMel Robbins55:34

        "... the fact that this just doesn't feel right. They've already moved on, and now that person's going on the trip, and that person is now friends with their friends, and argh." And you get through all of that. You recognize it's not gonna change. You've spent your year. You've made your ick list. You get it. You kind of can move on now, right? What if it's family?

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula55:54

        Hmm.

    18. MRMel Robbins55:55

        What if it's family and you are not going to cut the-

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:00

        Mm-hmm.

    20. MRMel Robbins56:00

        ... narcissistic family member out of your life-

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:02

        Mm-hmm.

    22. MRMel Robbins56:03

        ... whether it's because that's just not the kind of parent you are-

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:06

        Mm-hmm.

    24. MRMel Robbins56:06

        ... if it's your

23. 56:07 – 1:02:15

    What if you cannot cut the narcissistic person out of your life?

    1. MRMel Robbins56:07

       child, or it's not kind of like-

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:09

       Mm-hmm.

    3. MRMel Robbins56:09

       ... daughter or son you are, if it's your parent, and every year comes around, and it is that person's-

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:14

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MRMel Robbins56:14

       ... birthday, and it, and it is the holiday time, and that person is still in your life? How do you cope with the grief?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:24

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MRMel Robbins56:24

       That's the word that you said.

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:25

       Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

    9. MRMel Robbins56:26

       Grief is a huge part of this.

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula56:27

        I'm glad you put it the way you did, which is, how do we cope with the grief? 'Cause there's no getting rid of the grief, right? Every year, when you, or every month, or however often you have contact with this person, even every phone call, the disappointment is experienced anew, especially when it's a family member. Because not, uh, invariably, these are people who have been around since you were a child. So the anticipation that this is the time they're gonna care, this is the time they're gonna be nice, it's the, it's a constant recalibration. That's the only way I can put it, is that you... Because what happens is, is there might be, you have actually lovely people in your life, good friends, good partner, and then you go to this family that is so unkind, and then you're, uh, even that vacillation between those two spaces can actually, your friends can give you faith in human beings again, and then you go back to your family, and all that faith goes away really fast. And so part of it is something, is, is downright just, just preparation. We... In the book, it's called the prepare and release method, which is, you've gotta prepare for these encounters. You can't go in cold. It's like you're stretching for a workout. You don't just say, "Oh, I feel like working out, I feel like running," put on the sneakers, in your business clothes, go running down the street, right? There's a process. You stretch out your muscles. You're gonna cramp up. It's the same thing when you know you're gonna see the narcissistic family member, whether you see them every day or once a month or once a year, which is you really sit down and say, "This year's gonna be no different. This time's gonna be no different. They have absolutely no interest in what I have to say. They're going to make it all about them." And many of my clients, in fact, one of my clients, she said it beautifully when she said she plays narcissist bingo, and the bingo is like invalidation, ding, gaslight, ding-ding. And like, and she said, "It's all I can do to not, to hold back, when I get five, five of them in a row, to not say, 'Bingo!' Like, you win, and get yourself a present," because it's all gonna happen. So preparing yourself, you can almost turn it into a little bit of a chuckle, like, "Here we go." And I have to, I, I definitely do a lot of narcissist bingo in family systems, and I do have to catch myself from smiling 'cause then people think I'm smirking or I'm lost my mind. Like, "Why are you smiling right now?" Mostly it's 'cause I got bingo and I bet myself a Dairy Queen on the way home-

    11. MRMel Robbins58:41

        (laughs)

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula58:41

        ... that I (laughs) , I won. But as much as I'm, I'm making light of it is the preparation for what this encounter is going to be like, right? Because it will hurt, and you will be filled with grief because this person, a parent was supposed to be a parent, and you recognize in that moment the things that still, you struggle with because that parent wasn't those things. Instead of being supportive, they were invalidating, and on and on and on, right? And what that means then is the other bookend to this preparation, you go through it, but being prepared, while it won't eradicate the grief, it can sometimes modify, it can definitely bring it down a little bit and say like, "Okay, that was what I expected it to be." Which means the other bookend, the release part is you've got to give yourself downtime afterwards. The best self-care you can do is after the conversation, not have a, a meeting booked right in there, or take a nap, or take a shower, or take a walk, or whatever it is that you do to feel replenished again. These have to be intentional processes. And when you treat it like that, it, it puts the harsh glare on like, "Yeah, this is not healthy." I, however, feel whatever, duty bound, obligation bound, there's other people in this family system I actually really care about. You have to keep plugging back into your intention, which is, "Why do I keep interacting with this person?" And whatever your reason is, it's fine, as long as your reason's not, "Because this time, I think it's gonna be different."

    13. MRMel Robbins1:00:06

        Well, I love that distinction 'cause you're basically just coming back to the very simple fact that the only option here is radical acceptance-

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:13

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:00:13

        ... which is this is the situation.

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:15

        This is the situation.

    17. MRMel Robbins1:00:15

        There is no changing it.

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:17

        Yeah, nope. Nope.

    19. MRMel Robbins1:00:17

        And I may hope it's gonna change-

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:19

        Yep.

    21. MRMel Robbins1:00:20

        ... but it's never gonna change.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:21

        Nope.

    23. MRMel Robbins1:00:21

        And that's why I feel grief about this.

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:23

        Mm-hmm.

    25. MRMel Robbins1:00:23

        You write about this in your new book, and I found it fascinating, that when there is a narcissistic parent-

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:29

        Mm-hmm.

    27. MRMel Robbins1:00:29

        ... there are typically roles-

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:31

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:00:31

        ... that people tend to fall into-

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:00:33

        Mm-hmm.
24. 1:02:15 – 1:04:35

    How to identify if you were a scapegoat for your parents.

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:02:15

       narcissistic parent or parents. The scapegoat role is no joke. Anyone who's listening to this who was a scapegoat as a child will say the wounds of that role stuck with them until adulthood. They never felt safe. And it's a horrific role because a scapegoated child will often see that other siblings and other people in the family system are being treated significantly better than them. It's not like everyone's being uniformly abused, that they are getting the worst of it. And that idea that others are, that, in, in real time you can see that you're getting it worse than others can really do, can really do a psychological number on a person. But the roles aren't just limited to those. Other roles include the rescuer. The, the, the, sort of the rescuer, sort of fixer, if you will. This is the kid who's sort of always trying to make things right. They clean up after dinner. They make sure everything's running well. They kind of take away all the stressors that could set off the narcissistic parent. They're the one that almost feels anxiety while they hear the parent's car come up the drive. They're like-

    2. MRMel Robbins1:03:15

       Ugh.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03:15

       ..."Quick, quick, quick, we need to clean up. We need to clean up, you guys. Come on, come on, come on." It's a lot of that anxiety. Rescuers, they tend to be rescuers well into adulthood. Like, "We gotta make it better. We gotta make it better." They tend to be appeasers. They tend to be those appeasers in the family system through adulthood. The, the, the peacekeepers are sort of the diplomats of the family. M- The rescuers are often doing things-

    4. MRMel Robbins1:03:37

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03:37

       ... like, "Let's clean up."

    6. MRMel Robbins1:03:38

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:03:38

       The, the peacekeeper, the diplomat, these are the people that are like, "No, no, no, that's not what Mom meant. Mom didn't mean that. W- I think, Mom, you were trying to tell, you were trying to tell Billy that you, you kinda liked it, right?" And they're constantly trying to get in there, like some really hapless UN diplomat trying to make peace between countries who don't want it. And the peacekeeper diplomat child is always on edge, like watching for... So they never get to relax. They're always paying attention. Then there's the invisible child. Have a big enough narcissistic family system, this is the kid that literally gets forgotten. They may be very independent, they may be very quiet, but they're very forgotten. And oftentimes their interests aren't cultivated. Sometimes they're not even picked up from school. Like, we're talking about invisible. And the final-

    8. MRMel Robbins1:04:23

       I'm laughing 'cause that's my husband.

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:25

       And the final role is something we either call the truth-teller or the truth-seer. It depends on how much they're telling. The truth-seer/truth-teller role

25. 1:04:35 – 1:11:55

    Are you a truth-teller or a truth-seer?

    1. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:35

       can overlap with the scapegoat, but this is a very interesting role. This is the kid who gets it and sees it, even as young as five or six. They will see a pattern and s- when they're little, little and they don't know to inhibit, they'll say, "How come you said that? How come you did that mean thing to Grandma?" And the, that, that narcissistic person, like, it's like the Eye of Sauron in Lord of the Rings.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:04:58

       Yeah.

    3. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:04:58

       Like, they'll be like, "What?" And that kid can go scapegoat like that. Some truth-seer kids don't say a word. They just watch all of this and they're very aware, acutely aware. There's, it's almost like a, a gifted feel to them in the sense of they're very aware of who the players are. It's so fascinating though because one thing we know about narcissistic people is they're very socially perceptive. For how unempathic they are, for how selfish they are, they can read a room really well in the sense of how it affects them. So if sent someone has their number, they're onto them. So that truth-seer kid, in a way, is kind of in a position of risk because the narcissistic person, parent can almost feel that child's contempt. Like, the child is almost seeing like, "This isn't cool."

    4. MRMel Robbins1:05:50

       Mm-hmm.

    5. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:50

       And the kid may not even be saying it.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:05:52

       Mm-hmm.

    7. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:05:53

       It's a very subtle dynamic, but I've worked with a lot of survivors who will say, "I knew this was a mess and somehow my parent knew I knew, and that really put me in their crosshairs."

    8. MRMel Robbins1:06:04

       Is it normal when somebody starts to wake up and see and accept the situation for what it is, is anger part of this too?

    9. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:14

       Oh, heck yeah. Yeah, anger's great. Anger's my favorite emotion.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:06:17

        Well, because-

    11. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:18

        And let me tell you why.

    12. MRMel Robbins1:06:19

        Please.

    13. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:19

        Okay.

    14. MRMel Robbins1:06:19

        Because I, I also think a lot about the fact that if there is a spout- if there is a parent that's narcissistic and your parents are still together, there is also a parent that didn't protect you from that person.

    15. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:06:31

        That's right, right. So there's, and that get- that's where we start getting into the weeds. So why is anger so great for survivors? Because it's a mobilizing emotion, it's an activating emotion, right? Unlike sadness or anxiety that can create a heaviness or even an apathy, anger is a let's go emotion, right? But anger scares us. We think of the, uh, anger as being a narcissistic emotion, but in fact, the narcissistic people are rageful, not angry. Angry, anger is great, and when something is unjust, anger is what we should feel. Like, this is not okay, right? Anger is a stage of grief. So anger and-

    16. MRMel Robbins1:07:05

        Mm-hmm.

    17. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:07:05

        ... grief very much go together. So let's assume that you've got a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent, right?

    18. MRMel Robbins1:07:12

        Okay.

    19. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:07:12

        'Cause some people have two narcissistic parents, and all I can say is that I promise there's a special corner of heaven for them. But more often than not, it's a narcissistic parent and a non-narcissistic parent, and this gets complicated because what many people will say is, "I'm very aware of the suffering..."... that my non-narcissistic parent did endure at times. They were humiliated, they were embarrassed, they were criticized. The real agony is the sense of abandonment that the child feels by that non-narcissistic parent, thinking like, "You were the parent. It was your job to keep us safe." And for an adult in that situation, it becomes a very complex set of emotions. Whatever that case may be, sometimes people will say, "I get why they didn't fight back, and I get that they were going through their own thing," and then there's often a sense of guilt at being angry at the non-narcissistic parent for not fighting harder for them, and then in a sense of anger for feeling abandoned by that per- person. So when you combine anger and guilt and empathy into a blender, it is one of the most difficult-to-swallow smoothies you are ever going to taste in your life.

    20. MRMel Robbins1:08:28

        (laughs) What do you do, I may be seeking personal advice here-

    21. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:08:32

        (laughs)

    22. MRMel Robbins1:08:33

        ... when (laughs) the narcissistic parent has died-

    23. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:08:37

        Mm-hmm. Good question.

    24. MRMel Robbins1:08:37

        ... and now they are the golden person, and the way in which the narrative about that person is being told publicly is just so glowing-

    25. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:08:52

        Right.

    26. MRMel Robbins1:08:52

        ... and so wonderful-

    27. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:08:53

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MRMel Robbins1:08:53

        ... and you see the surviving parent waxing on and on and on about the narcissistic one, and you're sitting there going-

    29. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:09:01

        Right.

    30. MRMel Robbins1:09:01

        ... "That's not true."
26. 1:11:55 – 1:20:37

    How to handle co-parenting with a narcissist?

    1. MRMel Robbins1:11:55

       protect yourself?

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:11:56

       Part of it is the radical acceptance that the system is still the system, right?

    3. MRMel Robbins1:12:00

       Hmm.

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:00

       That the narcissistic person, in a way, has sort of, if you will, infected the system in a way, and that those roles, roles keep us comfortable in a way. They keep us safe. That's why dysfunctional systems call for roles, because they create a sense of, of either safety or definition. I don't know that the scapegoat role keeps someone safe, but it's a very clear role, right? So it's the radical acceptance that those things are gonna persist. Then there has to be, again, an intentional self-exploration of how do I, how do I want the people who remain in the system to remain in my life? If you are co-parenting and you have adult children, uh, with a narcissistic person from whom, with whom you're no longer in a relationship, don't ever gaslight your kids, but also don't proselytize them either.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:12:44

       What does that even mean?

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:12:44

       It, it's not your job to convince your kids that their other parent is narcissistic. It's actually not okay. If they come to that awareness themselves, they can share it. You don't wanna jump on it like, "Yeah, isn't he the worst?" But like, "That's a lot to take in. Do you wanna talk about it? This may not feel the safest place. Like, I hope you do get to explore it." Um, you know, "How, how can I be a support to you as you figure this out? Because it's not easy."

    7. MRMel Robbins1:13:12

       You know, though, I would imagine, in that scenario-

    8. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:14

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:13:16

       ... that if you're somebody-

    10. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:17

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:13:17

        ... who feels like this isn't just, and your adult kids come around-

    12. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:22

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MRMel Robbins1:13:22

        ... and they finally come to you and say, "Mom, Dad's a narcissist."

    14. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:28

        Mm-hmm.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:13:28

        "You're right."

    16. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:29

        Mm-hmm.

    17. MRMel Robbins1:13:29

        Your first reaction is gonna be-Finally. You know what I mean? Like, you're gonna say something-

    18. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:35

        Right.

    19. MRMel Robbins1:13:35

        ... that's not... You will ju-

    20. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:36

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MRMel Robbins1:13:36

        Because that's the justice you're looking for.

    22. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:38

        Correct. It is the justice you're looking for, but you wanna tread lightly because kids feel loyal to their parents, even their narcissistic parents. And the, uh, they're testing the waters. Don't think they're coming in here to say, "You're comrades-in-arms." They're testing the waters and if you're too enthusiastic, you may be viewed as a problem. But like-

    23. MRMel Robbins1:13:58

        (laughs) .

    24. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:13:58

        ... if they say, "You know, mom, I'm so sorry. We never made this easier for you. It is so clear he is narcissistic. We went on this ski trip with him and his new girlfriend. Oh, my god." And then, again, at the highest, highest level of functioning you'd say, "I mean, do you wanna talk about it? Do you not? I understand if you don't feel comfortable about it, but it's a lot. I hear ya. I get it." By saying, "I get it," that's really s- code for, "Yeah." And, um, and then, "I'm here." But you can have that justice within yourself, Mel. It doesn't have to be a justice parade.

    25. MRMel Robbins1:14:35

        Well, I just feel like this is something that's incredibly relatable.

    26. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:39

        Very relatable.

    27. MRMel Robbins1:14:39

        In the earlier episode, even though this is not, like, validated by a scientific study, you basically feel after decades of doing this that, meh, one out of every five or so people display this narcissistic-

    28. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:14:55

        Mm-hmm.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:14:55

        ... style of personality. So, if I think about the fact that 50% of relationships or more end of, in divorce and I think about the number of people listening that are recognizing that they may have been married to somebody like this, once you deal with your own radical acceptance and you give up hope that anything's gonna change and you accept the situation for what it is and you stop looking for justice and you are in your own healing and you're using the tools in your new book, I would imagine that any parent listening would love to know the best way that they could accelerate the healing of their children from this. How do you show up both for yourself and for the kids that are being impacted by that parent?

    30. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:15:43

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So here's o- o- one thing to always remember. Nobody walks away from a narcissistic parent unscathed. It's not possible. No matter what, if a person has had a narcissistic parent, it will negatively affect you. Now, in the extreme, obviously it'd be things like complex trauma. Um, some people with narcissistic parent become narcissistic themselves. We might see things like addiction in response to that. The vast majority of people who had narcissistic parents develop significant anxiety. Anxiety, self-doubt, social anxiety, um, uh, you know, all th- and all the stuff that goes with that. Am I doing enough? Am I enough? That sort of thing, right? But we'll, we'll put that in the bucket of anxiety. So if you are co-parenting in that situation, your kids will be anxious. That's a fact. Okay? That's number one, so let's start there. Number two is don't try to fix it. I think that the big mistake that we make-
27. 1:20:37 – 1:21:46

    How you can forgive yourself for being in an unhealthy relationship

    1. MRMel Robbins1:20:37

       earlier?"

    2. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:20:37

       Mm-hmm.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:20:38

       How, do you have tools for how you get over that?

    4. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:20:40

       That, in a strange way, could be a little bit easier, is it's almost like somebody saying, "Well, w- why didn't I know the answer to this exam question?" I'm like, "Well, because it w- the k- it was never taught to you."

    5. MRMel Robbins1:20:52

       Mm-hmm.

    6. RDDr. Ramani Durvasula1:20:52

       Right? You never, it was never told. We don't teach this in high school. Who t- who was gonna teach you this, right? Your parents didn't teach you. High school didn't teach you. College didn't teach you. W- I mean, I guess now with the advent of things like YouTube and stuff, people are, you know, people might get it that way, but some people don't even know what it's called. So we're talking about a relatively recent phenomenon, that people are understanding what this thing is. So how were you to know it if, uh, every single person around you is telling you, "Forgive them, they didn't mean it. This is who they are. They didn't mean it when they said it." That's what everyone around you is saying. And then the narcissistic person themselves is saying, "I never said that. You're crazy. There's something wrong with you. You make a big deal out of everything. You're too sensitive." If those are the two sets of voices coming at you, how the hell would you have known what this was?

Episode duration: 1:29:37