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Harvard Business School Professor: This One Research Study Will Change Your Life and Career

Order your copy of The Let Them Theory 👉 https://melrob.co/let-them-theory 👈 The #1 Best Selling Book of 2025 🔥 Discover how much power you truly have. It all begins with two simple words. Let Them. — Today's episode is going to completely change the way you think about every conversation you've been too afraid to have. Ever wonder why your relationships feel surface level, even after years? Why you feel lonely, even when you're surrounded by people? Why you say “I’m fine,” even when you’re not? Why some people earn trust instantly, while you struggle to be taken seriously? Harvard Business School’s Dr. Leslie K. John, a behavioral scientist who has spent decades studying honesty, trust, privacy, regret, and decision-making, is here to teach you the answer – and it's not what you think. In today’s episode, you will learn the surprising science of honesty, vulnerability, and human connection. Her research has found why the things you don't say are quietly hurting your health, your relationships, and your career – and exactly what to do about it. For years, the advice has been: don't overshare, at work or with friends. Keep things private. But decades of Harvard research say that advice is backwards. Dr. John's findings are shocking, and reveal that the real problem, the one deepening loneliness and costing you the career and connections you want, is undersharing. In this episode, you’ll learn that 89% of people would choose to work with, trust, and hire someone who reveals something difficult, even something unflattering, over someone who stays quiet. That keeping secrets doesn't just feel heavy. Research shows it lowers cognitive performance, IQ, and is linked to measurable declines in physical health. That one of the most common deathbed regrets is “I wish I had shared my feelings more.” That you can use The Disclosure Matrix, which is the exact decision-making tool Dr. John teaches at Harvard Business School, so you always know when to speak up and when to stay quiet. And, you’ll learn the 2-sentence framework that makes any hard conversation easier to start. If you've ever held something back because you didn't want to make things awkward, said "I'm fine" when you weren't, or wished your relationships felt deeper and more honest, this episode will change the way you communicate forever. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-392/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Intro 01:51 Skills That Will Change Your Life 04:21 Should You Should Be Sharing More? 19:03 Understanding Introversion & Shyness 25:19 How To Decide What To Share And What Not To Share 31:24 The Health Cost of Under-Sharing 34:39 Powerful Tools to Process Your Emotions 40:57 How To Deeply Express Yourself In Conversation 44:46 The Cost of Keeping Secrets 47:55 The Harvard Business School Disclosure Matrix Explained 58:47 Why You Should Be Open With Your Feelings — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Leslie K. Johnguest
May 4, 20261h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:51

    Intro

    1. MR

      Today, we're talking about research that will change your life and your career from the number one professor on decision-making at Harvard Business School. I'm talking about Dr. Leslie K. John. She is a Harvard Business School professor, the James E. Burke Professor of Business Administration, and a behavioral scientist who has spent decades studying honesty, self-disclosure, trust, privacy, regret, and decision-making. And she is the author of the best-selling book, Revealing: The Underrated Power of Oversharing.

    2. LJ

      76% of the things that people regret in life are the things they did not do, the things they didn't say. So I teach a lot of executives, and I start by showing them, in business contexts, how it helps them make money.

    3. MR

      Wait, so if you share more, you make more money.

    4. LJ

      When we share more, when we open up, when we reveal slightly sensitive things, it causes whoever we're revealing to to trust us more.

    5. MR

      So what is the life of an undersharer look like?

    6. LJ

      The life of an undersharer is a life of missed opportunities, friendships that never blossom. It's a life of colleagues that never quite trust you. It's a life of romances that don't spark or don't deepen.

    7. MR

      What is the most important thing to do?

    8. LJ

      It is to-

    9. MR

      Hey, it's Mel, and before we get into this episode, my team was showing me 57% of you who watch The Mel Robbins Podcast here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Could you do me a quick favor? Just hit subscribe so that you don't miss any of the episodes that we post here on YouTube. It lets me know you're enjoying the guests and the content that we're bringing you, because I wanna make sure you don't miss a thing, and I'm so glad you're here for this episode, 'cause this is a really good one. All right. Let's dive in.

  2. 1:51 – 4:21

    Skills That Will Change Your Life

    1. MR

      Dr. Leslie John, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

    2. LJ

      Oh, thanks so much for having me.

    3. MR

      I am so excited to dig into everything that you're about to teach us, your research. And where I wanna start is how, selfishly, how could my life be different-

    4. LJ

      Yeah

    5. MR

      ... if I take to heart everything that you are teaching at Harvard Business School, the lessons, the takeaway, the research, and I really apply it to my life? How is my life gonna change?

    6. LJ

      Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So number one is the realization that revealing wisely is a skill. It's not something we're born good or bad at. It is a skill, and you can do some really practical things, which we're gonna talk about, to, to, to do it really wisely. And if you do it wisely, it's gonna transform your relationships. It's gonna change how you show up at work. It's gonna help you thrive at work. It's gonna make you more influential. Um, and it's even gonna shape and improve your well-being, your day-to-day happiness.

    7. MR

      Just by being more open?

    8. LJ

      Yes. You're gonna notice that your EQ, your emotional intelligence, is gonna increase. You're gonna have much better self-awareness and understanding, and you'll have a much better understanding of others. As a result, you'll be much better able to, like, identify and process your emotions. You will feel, therefore, less stress. You will ruminate less. You will, um, you know that, that, that post-conversational replay, that gut-wrenching, "Oh my God, what did I do?" That's gonna dial way down, because part of opening up is saying hard things. You're gonna learn to be more assertive.

    9. MR

      Hmm.

    10. LJ

      Um, which will help you with boundaries. Beyond... And you'll feel more... It's not just the absence of negative stuff or the mitigating of it. You're gonna feel more joy. You're gonna be happier. [laughs] I sure am, and if this curmudgeonly academic feels that way... Um, you'll also find benefits in your workplace, in your career. So it's interesting, because the tools there are kind of counterintuitive, the things that you do to, say, gain more influence. So I'm excited to talk about that. So, um, let's go. [laughs]

    11. MR

      You know, uh, Dr. John, I'm sitting here thinking, if you're standing before a class at Harvard Business School, you gotta have a bunch of really type A people in there-

    12. LJ

      Yeah

    13. MR

      ... who wanna go into i-banking or be the next billionaire or build something meaningful, hardworking, hard-driving. They end up in front of you, and you're like, "Hey, let's talk about the power of oversharing."

  3. 4:21 – 19:03

    Should You Should Be Sharing More?

    1. LJ

      I know. [laughs]

    2. MR

      How do you sell the benefit-

    3. LJ

      Yeah

    4. MR

      ... of being more open and what you call oversharing-

    5. LJ

      Yes

    6. MR

      ... to somebody-

    7. LJ

      Yes

    8. MR

      ... who is just in your class to get ahead?

    9. LJ

      Yes.

    10. MR

      What is the real benefit of that?

    11. LJ

      Yes. Great questions. The way I start is by speaking their language. So I teach a lot of executives, and, um, some of them, rightly so, "Well, I'm a skeptical person." They're like, "What is this?" And especially sometimes when it comes to, like, feelings and emotions, "What is this?" And so what I do is I start by showing them, in business contexts, how this... First of all, this is crass, maybe. I am a business school professor. How it helps them make money.

    12. MR

      Yep.

    13. LJ

      And then I show-

    14. MR

      Wait, so if you share more, you make more money.

    15. LJ

      So the example I give there... I know. What? [laughs] As a company, so when, when we reveal s- when we share more, when we open up, when we reveal slightly sensitive things, it causes whoever we're revealing to to trust us more.

    16. MR

      Huh.

    17. LJ

      And the same is true in companies. When companies reveal more, it causes their tru- And I don't use the word cause lightly, right? These are randomized experiments. It causes their cu- customers to trust them more and to buy more. So we've done studies with, w- like, the largest bank in Australia, for example, where, with my colleague Ryan Buell, where somehow [laughs] we convinced them to, on their credit card website, so when you're going and looking for a credit card on their, their bank, Commonwealth Bank of Australia, what we convinced them to do is, half of the time, to reveal reasons why you might not want the credit card.So, like, pay attention. The fees are really high, or the points aren't great or whatever. The high interest rate. Like, drawing attent- basically saying, "Don't buy this." But that's a form of sensitive disclosure, right? And what did that do? It actually, it did not scare people away. It didn't decrease, um, customer acquisition, and it increased retention. The experiment alone made the bank millions of dollars, and then they rolled it out, and then their competitors copied them. So, so that's kind of, I start in the, like, money realm.

    18. MR

      Yeah.

    19. LJ

      Um, and then they're like, "Oh, okay." And then I go into leadership, and there I go into how when you're a leader, revealing a little bit more than you think you should. And I take them through. I first get them to craft a little self-introduction. I say, "Imagine you're about to introduce yourself to a group of new hires. What, what would you say about yourself?" And then I say, "Raise your hand if you had any negative traits in that." Crickets. And then I said, "We did a study with actual managers where we, we randomized them to either do what you did and not share weaknesses, or some of them planned to put a few weaknesses in. And then we asked the employees who they want to work for. They want to work for the person that has the weaknesses."

    20. MR

      Yeah.

    21. LJ

      They don't think the employer is incompetent. They just trust them more, and they want to work for them. [laughs]

    22. MR

      Well, I find this so fascinating because you hear the word oversharing, and you're, you think about those moments where something fell out of your mouth-

    23. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    24. MR

      ... and then you regret it.

    25. LJ

      Completely.

    26. MR

      And the research that you've been doing is so groundbreaking. What actually led you to go, "Oh, wait a minute."

    27. LJ

      Mm-hmm.

    28. MR

      Oversharing and revealing things that you may be hiding or may be scared to say really matters.

    29. LJ

      Mm-hmm.

    30. MR

      Like, what was that moment you're like, "I'm looking at this wrong"?

  4. 19:03 – 25:19

    Understanding Introversion & Shyness

    1. MR

      So what is the life-

    2. LJ

      Yes

    3. MR

      ... of an undersharer look like?

    4. LJ

      Yes. I would say the life of an undersharer is a life of missed opportunities.

    5. MR

      Hmm.

    6. LJ

      It's a life of friendships that never blossom. It's a life of colleagues that never quite trust you. It's a life of romances that don't spark or don't deepen.

    7. MR

      I know. It's so sad.

    8. LJ

      It is.

    9. MR

      And how do you know if you're an undersharer-

    10. LJ

      I know. That's tricky

    11. MR

      ... versus somebody who is just very much, like, shy or introverted-

    12. LJ

      Yeah, yeah

    13. MR

      ... or just a little bit more of an observer?

    14. LJ

      Right.

    15. MR

      What's the difference?

    16. LJ

      That's a great question.

    17. MR

      Or is there a difference?

    18. LJ

      I love that question, because being talkative is not the same thing as being reveal-y. [laughs] Um, or revealing wisely, for that matter.

    19. MR

      Let me just pause you there.

    20. LJ

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      Because is that aimed at me? [laughs]

    22. LJ

      No.

    23. MR

      You know. No, I'm just kidding.

    24. LJ

      Oh, my gosh.

    25. MR

      I'm just kidding.

    26. LJ

      Oh, oh, oh, oh.

    27. MR

      That was a joke.

    28. LJ

      Oh, good, good, good.

    29. MR

      No, but, but I think that's an important thing.

    30. LJ

      I love the joke. I love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  5. 25:19 – 31:24

    How To Decide What To Share And What Not To Share

    1. LJ

      right?

    2. MR

      You know, you also, in your work, you talk about disclosure decisions.

    3. LJ

      Mm-hmm.

    4. MR

      Can you-

    5. LJ

      Mm

    6. MR

      ... explain-

    7. LJ

      Yes

    8. MR

      ... to the person listening, and to me-

    9. LJ

      Yes

    10. MR

      ... what is a disclosure decision?

    11. LJ

      I love that. So a disclosure decision is simply a decision of whether to reveal something or to not reveal something. So many of our disclosure decisions ride under the surface. We don't even realize we are making these decisions. So often, we just kind of default to silence. We don't even consider the possibility of opening up.

    12. MR

      Hmm.

    13. LJ

      And so what I'd like to do-

    14. MR

      Yeah

    15. LJ

      ... is I'd like to do a little demo here-

    16. MR

      Great

    17. LJ

      ... to help us understand this a little bit.

    18. MR

      Okay.

    19. LJ

      A day in the life of disclosure decisions.

    20. MR

      Okay. So you're gonna walk us through the average day, and you're gonna point out all of these subconscious moments where something is happening in your interpersonal life, and you just decide not to say anything.

    21. LJ

      Yes.

    22. MR

      Oh, I have a feeling this is gonna be painful. [laughs] Okay.

    23. LJ

      It's just gonna be an average, boring day, but that's the point, right?

    24. MR

      Okay, average, boring day, and Dr. John is reaching down, and she is pulling up, there's a basket, and there are yellow ball, ping pong ball things, like little wiffle ball things that she has in the basket. There's one right there. Okay, you hear it. And why don't you walk us through-

    25. LJ

      Yes

    26. MR

      ... what's about to happen. And there's a big mason jar.

    27. LJ

      Okay. So I'm going to walk us through the day in a life of decis- disclosure decisions, and what my purpose here is I want to make visible something that is typically invisible in our lives, and that is the sheer number of disclosure decisions we actually make unknowingly.

    28. MR

      And this is also helping us really consider, are you open, and are you revealing-

    29. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    30. MR

      ... what's happening?

  6. 31:24 – 34:39

    The Health Cost of Under-Sharing

    1. MR

      And what I would love to hear is what is the implication in terms of your energy or your mood-

    2. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    3. MR

      ... or your own health-

    4. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... your happiness from constantly withholding-

    6. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    7. MR

      ... and undersharing?

    8. LJ

      Mm-hmm. Right. So there is a lot that we know about undersharing, withholding. It's really bad for our mental and physical health. So wh- for example, when we keep secrets, we tend to ruminate about them, and that decreases mental focus. It, it, it literally lowers your IQ on tests when you're-

    9. MR

      Huh

    10. LJ

      ... holding secrets. Um, it also is associated with decreased wellbeing. Like, people who hold secrets, they have lower objective measures of physical health. So there's, there's all kinds of health issues. And, and I'm just getting at the, like, physical, mental health. I'm not even getting at the missed opportunities of what your relationship could be and the problems you're causing by not opening up, right?

    11. MR

      Well, if we just take the example-

    12. LJ

      Yeah

    13. MR

      ... like, the missed opportunities in what you just said is connection with the person.

    14. LJ

      Yeah.

    15. MR

      First thing we said, I had a scary dream. Oh, my God, I'm getting really-

    16. LJ

      Yeah

    17. MR

      ... like, so you're missing connection reassurance.

    18. LJ

      Yes.

    19. MR

      When you look in the mirror, and you were nice to yourself by just saying you're old. I'm normally like-

    20. LJ

      [laughs]

    21. MR

      ... "God, you look terrible."

    22. LJ

      Oh, I don't say, I'm filtering a little though. [laughs]

    23. MR

      Yeah, I know. Yeah. Like, but if I say to Chris-

    24. LJ

      I still have acne. I'm in my 40s. What's up with that? [laughs]

    25. MR

      [laughs] Apparently, your hormones are still working. That's what's up with that.

    26. LJ

      Yeah.

    27. MR

      But, you know, when I say to Chris, "I just feel really ugly lately. I just feel unattract..." He always reassures me.

    28. LJ

      Yeah, yeah.

    29. MR

      And it feels like it has less of a grip on me.

    30. LJ

      Yes, yes.

  7. 34:39 – 40:57

    Powerful Tools to Process Your Emotions

    1. LJ

      But this is also part of the point, which is that in order to do this well, you have to have self-awareness. You have to really understand what's going on in your mental state. And so even things like, um, like sharing your feelings and all the, the things, the, the scientific research on how opening up, whether it's to a therapist or writing it down in a journal, that is extremely therapeutic for us. It helps us process our feelings. It helps us feel better. Um, in order to do that well, you have to have insight into your psychological state. And when I, when I started doing this, and this is why, again, I'm telling you I was a guinea pig because if, if, like, I'm a recovering emotional illiterate. Because I went, with my therapist, I was, I don't know, I was kvetching about something, and he's like, "Well, how do you feel?" And I, I was saying cognitions. You know, like, I feel trapped or whatever. Uh, I feel like this doesn't make sense. [laughs] He's like, "Those are thoughts, a feeling." I'm like, then I literally asked him, "What is a feeling?" Like, PhD, what is a feeling? And then he handed me this thing called an emotions wheel, which I, I printed a version of that in the book, which I found so helpful, which helps you to really figure out you, what you're feeling. And it's, you start with a really core feeling. So for example, the way the wheel works is you start off with, you just ask yourself, the version I have in my book is, like, super, for me, emotional illiterate. So it starts off with a very simple question, like, thumbs up, thumbs down. [laughs] Positive, negative. Okay, I got that. Then the next layer out of this circle is getting a little bit more refined, which is simply, is this an emotion that's very arousing? Like, is there, is there a lot of energy behind it, or is it more of a non-arousing energy-

    2. MR

      Mm

    3. LJ

      ... like a calm? And it turns out there's four combinations, right? So you could have, you could have a positive that's really active, like joy, excitement. You can also have a positive emotion that's low arousal, like, like calm.

    4. MR

      Hmm.

    5. LJ

      The same is true about negative things, like anger, rage. Those are full force active. But, like, boredom-

    6. MR

      Yeah

    7. LJ

      ... would be something that's more... And so, and then once you get those, you can get, I won't go into detail now, but the next ring is, like, anger. Okay, is it disappointment? Is it rage, right? And you can just literally, like, oh, that one, that one, that one, that's me. And once you start doing this, you expand your emotional vocabulary, which helps you understand yourself better, which helps you communicate better.

    8. MR

      Well, what's helpful about that very simple construct-Am I feeling good or bad?

    9. LJ

      Yep.

    10. MR

      And am I feeling like I wanna do something about it?

    11. LJ

      Right. [laughs]

    12. MR

      Or am I, like, energy-

    13. LJ

      Yeah

    14. MR

      ... or am I feeling low about it?

    15. LJ

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    16. MR

      That just even considering that, if you're laying in bed and you're like, "I love you, honey," and then you're like, "Wait, I d- I feel bad-

    17. LJ

      Hmm

    18. MR

      ... right now."

    19. LJ

      Yeah.

    20. MR

      "And it's, like, bringing me down."

    21. LJ

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      That's a way-

    23. LJ

      It's like melancholy or-

    24. MR

      ... to access your-

    25. LJ

      Yeah

    26. MR

      ... that, like, something's up. Like, I just feel-

    27. LJ

      Yeah

    28. MR

      ... really low energy today.

    29. LJ

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      Can you give me a hug?

  8. 40:57 – 44:46

    How To Deeply Express Yourself In Conversation

    1. MR

      powerful. Um, you know, you hear a lot in the news right now about loneliness.

    2. LJ

      Mm-hmm, yep.

    3. MR

      And how does just kinda having these surface level interactions-

    4. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... with people and not really opening up about anything, or not being curious about the people in your life such that you're wanting them to open up-

    6. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    7. MR

      ... like, how is that contributing to the disconnection-

    8. LJ

      Yeah

    9. MR

      ... that you're feeling?

    10. LJ

      Yeah. So I think that surface level connections, surface level interactions give this illusion of connection because they have all the trappings of real connection, right?

    11. MR

      Hmm.

    12. LJ

      Like, they've got the smiling, even if it's a little forced. They've got the eye contact, the shared experience. So they've got a lot of that trapping. But without the social risk, which is opening up a little bit-

    13. MR

      Hmm

    14. LJ

      ... they, these types of superficial interactions, they end up making you feel, especially this introvert, socially full, but emotionally malnourished, right?

    15. MR

      Ooh, that's an interesting distinction.

    16. LJ

      Yeah.

    17. MR

      So your cup is full.

    18. LJ

      Yeah.

    19. MR

      I've had enough. I need to go home.

    20. LJ

      Yeah. Stimulation-

    21. MR

      Yes

    22. LJ

      ... too much for me.

    23. MR

      But you actually don't feel anything.

    24. LJ

      Right, yeah.

    25. MR

      Ooh, I love-

    26. LJ

      Yeah, yeah

    27. MR

      ... so the stimulation of it versus the actual richness-

    28. LJ

      Yeah

    29. MR

      ... of the connection.

    30. LJ

      Yeah, yeah. And so then the question becomes, well, how do you do it? Like-

  9. 44:46 – 47:55

    The Cost of Keeping Secrets

    1. MR

      I wanna read to you from your book, Revealing. This is page 85. "Research speaks to wide-ranging tolls of concealment. For example, the more frequently people think about their secrets, the more likely they are to experience feelings of inauthenticity, lower relationship satisfaction, and even worse physical health outcomes." So let's talk about-

    2. LJ

      Yeah

    3. MR

      ... the cost of-

    4. LJ

      Yeah

    5. MR

      ... secrets.

    6. LJ

      Yes. Yeah, so I think the main issue with secrets is they are really preoccupying. They really... We think they're inert. We think they're neutral, but they really, really sneak up on us in occupying our psyche. Um, and one of the tricky things with secrets is that they represent kind of an unresolved loop in your mind.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. LJ

      Because if you have a secret, you kind of haven't really resolved. You're constantly monitoring, should I say? Should I not? And it's like you're kind of perpetually ruminating over this disclosure decision, essentially. Um, I'm not saying we should reveal all our secrets. Some secrets are important to be kept.

    9. MR

      I, I wanna dig into this-

    10. LJ

      Yeah, yeah

    11. MR

      ... only because I feel like there, in the context of your research-

    12. LJ

      Yeah

    13. MR

      ... there's a difference between saying, "This information is private."

    14. LJ

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    15. MR

      "I'm not ashamed of it."

    16. LJ

      Completely.

    17. MR

      "I am just... I have boundaries-

    18. LJ

      Right

    19. MR

      ... with who is going to know this information-

    20. LJ

      Right

    21. MR

      ... and who's not, but I'm not holding this information over my own head."

    22. LJ

      Right.

    23. MR

      Secrets feels like something that you use the word unresolved loop in my mind-

    24. LJ

      Yes

    25. MR

      ... that you are holding over your own head and that you're wrestling with. So a secret, an example might be that you have fallen out of love with somebody, and that you don't know how to tell them.

    26. LJ

      Oh, my gosh.

    27. MR

      And you have this secret-

    28. LJ

      Yeah

    29. MR

      ... that you are planning on-

    30. LJ

      Yeah

  10. 47:55 – 58:47

    The Harvard Business School Disclosure Matrix Explained

    1. MR

      ... how, to whom-

    2. LJ

      Yeah

    3. MR

      ... and when.

    4. LJ

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      You have this disclosure matrix-

    6. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    7. MR

      ... that really helps us map out, okay, why, how, when, whom, and when not.

    8. LJ

      I'm gonna teach it to you exactly how I teach it at Harvard Business School. So first thing is we're past step one. Step one is we're aware of the possibility of opening up, right?

    9. MR

      Okay.

    10. LJ

      This ding, ding, ding. There's a disclosure decision, right? We've, we've done the, the ping pong ball exercise, and we're aware of our decision.

    11. MR

      Okay.

    12. LJ

      So that's, like, at least half the battle. So awesome.

    13. MR

      Okay.

    14. LJ

      But now we're trying to figure out whether we should open up or not.

    15. MR

      Right.

    16. LJ

      And so what-

    17. MR

      Let's take the example that you said-

    18. LJ

      Yeah

    19. MR

      ... which is you know the relationship's over, and you do not know how to disclose.

    20. LJ

      Oh, my gosh, yes. You cut to the personal. This isn't even in the book, this thinking. [laughs] Yeah, no, no, it's good. Personal is good.

    21. MR

      But we all-

    22. LJ

      We all have been there, right?

    23. MR

      ... have had that experience.

    24. LJ

      Yes.

    25. MR

      Do I say something? Do I not?

    26. LJ

      Yes.

    27. MR

      How do I bring this up?

    28. LJ

      Yes.

    29. MR

      When do I bring this up?

    30. LJ

      Yes.

  11. 58:47 – 1:08:50

    Why You Should Be Open With Your Feelings

    1. LJ

      always go well.

    2. MR

      But what does the data say-

    3. LJ

      Mm-hmm

    4. MR

      ... about what happens typically-

    5. LJ

      Yeah

    6. MR

      ... when you do think through-

    7. LJ

      Yeah

    8. MR

      ... a decision, and you decide to be open and honest-

    9. LJ

      Yeah

    10. MR

      ... about how you feel or about what you need?

    11. LJ

      We imagine it as being worse, the fallout, than it actually is. Like, that's, like, one of the most robust findings in all of social psychology. It's called the impact bias, where we think that future emotional events will have a longer las- will be longer-lasting than they are. So if we think we, if we're gonna get a raise, we're like, "Oh, I'm gonna be happy for the next year," when really you kind of adapt. That's the bad side out of it. But you have a breakup. In prospect, you think, "If I break up with this person, I'm, I'm gonna be crushed for the rest of my life. They're gonna be crushed." And yeah, it really stings, but it doesn't last as long as you think it does usually.

    12. MR

      Now, can you talk, though, about how the research shows that when you're open about feelings, it's-

    13. LJ

      Hmm

    14. MR

      ... can be more persuasive than making a logical argument-

    15. LJ

      Ah

    16. MR

      ... even at work?

    17. LJ

      Yes.

    18. MR

      Like, why do people listen more or care more when your emotions are involved?

    19. LJ

      I know. We think emotions, ah, they're the filler. Um, but emotions are information, and they're really credible. They're really credible 'cause they're hard to fake. So they also are riskier than sharing thoughts, which also makes them credible because you really mean it if you're willing to take the risk-

    20. MR

      Hmm

    21. LJ

      ... to share some emotion. Oftentimes the answer is reveal. So reveal why you're crying. Say, tie it to your passion for your job. "I am crying because I care so much about the stakeholders of this company that we better get this right." You know? So linking it to passion then can make it more compelling instead of being... Especially, like, with women, gender, we worry about that, too.

    22. MR

      Yeah.

    23. LJ

      Like, oh, she's just overemotional. Um, so if you're able to do that, then it's, it can be quite powerful. Uh, but, but you of course, you know, you have to be careful, um, because it is a tricky, it is a very tricky thing. Um, but I, you know, I've had, I've had my own experiences ugly crying, and I, I had a... I don't know if you want me to tell this story, but [laughs] I had a, when I was a baby academic, I gave a, a talk at a very fancy university which has a reputation for being very tough on speakers, read A-holes to speakers. Um, and they were asking me difficult questions, which I expect, which is good science, but what was bothering me was that they were asking them in a belligerent, rude way.

    24. MR

      Hmm.

    25. LJ

      Right?And, and interrupting me. So they were, they were being rude. And finally, I just couldn't hold back anymore, and I just, you know, I was try- Like, I was smart to try to not cry, right? These are, these are people, I'm a baby academic. They're in charge of my fate 'cause they're gonna, like, write me letters to say if I'm any good when I'm up for promotion. So, like, I was really trying. But I just couldn't stop. I couldn't. So I'm just full-on ugly crying. Full-on ugly-

    26. MR

      On stage?

    27. LJ

      So, yeah, in front of, like, there's, like, 30 people, senior academics at this university. And I'm... It's not... I write about it in the book, and I always... In the book, I say, "This sounds more composed than it was." You have to remember that the sound effects are , right? Like, like, as I'm... But , so I, I start bawling, and then I think to myself, I'm like, "They need to know why I'm crying because otherwise they're gonna think that I'm just, like, I can't take hard scientific questions." And so I stopped, and I said, "I'm stopping to talk 'cause I need to tell you why I'm crying. I'm crying, I'm not crying 'cause you're asking me hard questions. I'm crying because you're being belligerent. I'm crying because you're being rude." And I didn't stop there, which I maybe should have. Um, but I was like, "Okay, I've lit this thing on fire, so why not?" And, um, you know, "You," I might have even pointed a finger, "you may not know this because you, all you see is the way you are, but you know you have a reputation. It's not okay, and it has to stop."

    28. MR

      What happened?

    29. LJ

      Well, so then they, they, they were quiet the [laughs] rest of the time. They were scared of me. Um, I did get a few apologies afterwards. And then, well, first of all, it was not career suicide that I thought it would be. In fact, one of the faculty who was there later revealed to me, you know, 10 years later, that he, he wrote a really great supportive letter for my promotion. And, um, the other thing, though, that I thought was really cool about it, other than the mortal humiliation, was that a couple of friends who went there a few weeks later, they were actually reasonable to them.

    30. MR

      Hmm.

Episode duration: 1:08:53

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