Harvard Doctor Reveals Why You Have Cravings and How to Stop Them | The Mel Robbins Podcast

Mel Robbins 0:03 These are the bane of my existence. Oh, my God. Today, you and I are gonna get real about cravings, appetite, hunger, how to rein in the emotional eating. You're finished with dinner, you promise yourself you're not gonna eat something, and all of a sudden, boom, you gotta have ice cream. What is that about? Well, today, we're gonna dig deep into the science. You have been asking for Dr. Amy Shah to come on the show. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Okay, today, you and I are gonna get real about cravings, appetite, hunger, how to rein in the emotional eating. For me personally, I've got, um, a bag here. These potato chips, these are black truffle potato chips that I'm holding right now. These are the bane of my existence. Oh, my God. My kids have introduced me to these things. I have to tell you, I have this insane craving for black truffle potato chips every single day around 2:00 in the afternoon. Um, I can plow through an entire bag of these things. I don't even know if I'm hungry or not. I just all of a sudden, boom, 2:00 hits, I have to have a potato chip, and I don't know if you've ever been stuck in that cycle of yo-yo dieting or you're finished with dinner, you promise yourself you're not gonna eat something, and all of a sudden, boom, you gotta have ice cream. What is that about? Well, today we're gonna dig deep into the science. Dr. Amy Shah is a double board certified doctor. She received her training from Cornell, she did a residency at Harvard, and a fellowship at Columbia. She's an expert on intermittent fasting, food allergies, hormones, and you guessed it, hunger, cravings, appetite. In fact, you have been asking for Dr. Amy Shah to come on the show. Her latest book, I'm So F***ing Hungry: Why We Crave What We Crave and What to Do About It. Dr. Amy Shah is here to tell us what to do about it. Dr. Amy, it is such a pleasure to meet you.

Dr. Amy Shah 2:19 Ah, such a pleasure to be here and to meet you.

Mel Robbins 2:21 One of the reasons why I wanted to talk to you, Dr. Amy, because there's a lot of noise on TikTok, there's a lot of noise on social media, there are a lot of "wellness experts" that got themselves in shape and they have a lot of important things to say, but you are a m- you're a licensed and trained nutritionist with Ivy League degrees and you're also a medical doctor, and you understand not just nutrition as a lifestyle, but you understand nutrition and the science of nutrition. And so, when I'm listening to somebody who's a wellness expert who has figured this out in their life, I listen to them differently than I listen to a medical doctor-

Dr. Amy Shah 3:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 3:06 ... who is figuring this out in her own life, who is also a nutritionist and understands it from the inside out. And so I'm thrilled that you're here, and I want to start with... So, thank you.

Dr. Amy Shah 3:18 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 3:19 You're welcome. Um, I want to start with the difference between hunger and having an appetite and cravings, so we're all

Mel Robbins 3:31 on the same page.

Dr. Amy Shah 3:32 Great question. Uh, the simplest way to think about it is when you're sitting at dinner and you had this amazing dinner, appetizer, drinks, you know, entrée, and you are full, you're ready, you're ready to go, and the waiter comes out and says, "Actually, you know what? We have these special desserts that we just made tonight, and they are out of this world," and everyone looks at each other and they're like, "Well, we're full, but we really want that dessert." That's cravings.

Mel Robbins 4:03 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 4:03 That's not hunger. You're no longer hungry.

Mel Robbins 4:06 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 4:06 You're actually pretty full, extra full, right? But you're working on that cravings pathway, and that cravings pathway is super strong. It's the same cravings pathway that alcohol uses, drugs, sugar, um, so desserts, um, so cravings is a dopamine pathway.

Mel Robbins 4:29 Huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 4:29 Whereas hunger is your natural need to get nutrients. Hunger, actually you can go for many days, even a month without food.

Mel Robbins 4:40 A month?

Dr. Amy Shah 4:41 Yes. People fast for a month. Um, from (laughs) my background, um, my family is Jain, and they fast for long periods of time, and there is a fasting month where you actually eat nothing and just drink water. Uh, so our hunger signals are reminders to eat because your body does not want you to go a full month without remembering to eat. So ghrelin, you might have heard of this hunger hormone, it's released to remind us to eat. So the same time every day you get hungry, you get reminded to eat, and your ghrelin, um, comes and goes. So, some people just aren't hungry, you know, at- in the morning. Um, some people get very hungry at night no matter what they've eaten all day because of that ghrelin cycling. Um, so if you understand that it's a cycle, it's a reminder, you don't always have to take that reminder, but it's a reminder. So if you need food, um, you should get it, but...

Mel Robbins 5:39 Huh. So what is appetite?

Dr. Amy Shah 5:41 Appetite is the overall, um, interest in food. Have you ever seen a dog when they're sick and they're just, like, not interested? Their appetite is dampened. It will dampen your cravings and your hunger pathways-

Mel Robbins 5:56 Huh. Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 5:57 ... to let you heal, right?

Mel Robbins 5:58 So, hunger is like this- this need to eat...

Dr. Amy Shah 6:01 Yes.

Mel Robbins 6:01 ... right? That is tied to the biological imperative to stay alive. Appetite is the desire for food.

Dr. Amy Shah 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:07 And we've all had those periods in our life where we've felt...... sick. I mean, my-

Dr. Amy Shah 6:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:12 ... my, uh, allergies are crazy right now and I'm not that hungry.

Dr. Amy Shah 6:15 Yes.

Mel Robbins 6:15 Normally I would be ravenous right now.

Dr. Amy Shah 6:17 Yes.

Mel Robbins 6:18 So my appetite is-

Dr. Amy Shah 6:20 Is dampened, yes.

Mel Robbins 6:20 ... is the, is the correct word.

Dr. Amy Shah 6:22 Yes, yes.

Mel Robbins 6:22 I don't have much of an appetite, and then cravings, this is one of the reasons why I love your book, I'm So F***ing Hungry so much, because I've learned so much that I didn't know. That you talk so much about our cravings and the eating patterns that we have that aren't healthy for us based on the brain, not based on emotion, not based on what's going on with what you just ate, but that actually there is a whole hormone cycle to this thing.

Dr. Amy Shah 6:52 Oh, it's so complicated. So there was a French philosopher in 1825, Jean-Claude Savarin, and he said, "Show me what you eat and I'll show you who you are." And even today, that stands true, right? Show me what you eat and I'll tell you who you are, because our lives are dictated through food. Uh, we have now food addictions, um, and some of it is not our fault. A lot of it is not our fault.

Mel Robbins 7:23 Yeah, you actually say that in this book, that you say that, you know, you get into these

Mel Robbins 7:27 sort of habits of eating unhealthy things, the pulling up at the drive through and ordering the extra large fries and the burger on the way home from work, and then you feel like crap, and then you have a craving, and then you eat something else, and that it's not your fault.

Dr. Amy Shah 7:43 It's-

Mel Robbins 7:43 How is it not your fault if you're the one putting the food in your mouth?

Dr. Amy Shah 7:47 Think about it. Um, have you ever been to Miami? I always talk about-

Mel Robbins 7:50 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 7:51 ... the Miami phenomenon, okay? When you go to Miami, and the first time I went, I was in med school, and I saw all the flashing lights and the people and the music and the craziness, and I was like, "Oh my God," my dopamine receptors were firing.

Mel Robbins 8:05 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 8:05 That's what happens the first time you eat a sugary food, like a ice cream or a McDonald's burger, you get a huge burst of dopamine. And then, on day three of being in Miami, all of a sudden, it doesn't seem loud, it doesn't seem as entertaining. You a- you need to turn the volume up, you need-

Mel Robbins 8:24 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 8:24 ... to go to the club now, because you're kind of used to it. You, you don't even feel excited or happy just from being out in the street, you actually need to turn up the volume. And so that's what's happening to us. We're having this Miami South Beach effect in our brains when we're eating all of this sweet food, these processed foods that they don't occur in nature. That dopamine explosion happening day after day after day, it lowers your... You know, you're not even as happy anymore. And so the problem is, you need more and more and more to get that same dopamine release. And guess what happens, Mel, on the other end?

Mel Robbins 9:07 I don't know.

Dr. Amy Shah 9:08 Dopamine has this weird aftereffect, where it makes you irritable, it makes you uncomfortable, and it makes you crave that food so badly that you just wanna like almost make yourself f- not feel the pain anymore. And so dopamine has this effect on us that we'll eat it, we'll get the pleasure, but then there's like that pain aspect to it.

Mel Robbins 9:33 Because you want it again.

Dr. Amy Shah 9:34 You want it again.

Mel Robbins 9:34 There is something that you just said that really caught my attention. I've never heard anybody say this before. It's that you get the dopamine rush from eating things that are not available in nature.

Dr. Amy Shah 9:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:49 Can you explain that?

Dr. Amy Shah 9:50 When you eat an apple-

Mel Robbins 9:52 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 9:53 ... you get the sugar-

Mel Robbins 9:55 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 9:55 ... but you get water, electrolytes, you know, antioxidants-

Mel Robbins 9:58 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 9:59 ... and fiber-

Mel Robbins 10:00 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 10:00 ... most importantly. That, um, h- is how sugar is made in nature. So if you see a fruit tree, um, your dopamine pathway, we think was made to help us survive and want to find that tree with the ripe fruit to keep us going, to keep us agitated enough to like try to look for more food, just to keep us surviving.

Mel Robbins 10:23 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 10:24 Now, take it, you know, thousands of years later, we have ultra-processed foods, which I will define for you later, that don't have any fiber, that don't have any vitamins to tell the body that you've eaten something, and they pack the sugar in such a small amount of food that the explosion of dopamine you get is similar to a drug-

Mel Robbins 10:50 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 10:50 ... like cocaine.

Mel Robbins 10:51 Or being in South Beach.

Dr. Amy Shah 10:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:52 Yes, it's like boom.

Dr. Amy Shah 10:54 Boom.

Mel Robbins 10:55 And then you have a drop, and then you crave the candy bar or the whatever it was that you just had that was ultra-processed. So what does ultra-processed mean?

Dr. Amy Shah 11:04 Ultra-processed is really simple. If you could not make it in your kitchen, or any kitchen-

Mel Robbins 11:11 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 11:12 ... because the ingredients are not ingredients of food, then it's ultra-processed. Ultra-processed means you cannot recreate that food in your kitchen, even if you had access to any ingredient in the world.

Mel Robbins 11:24 Wow.

Dr. Amy Shah 11:25 So that's a lot of things, you know, Doritos, Kit Kats, um, sundaes, uh, if you think about it. We have often the option of getting the minimally processed or non-processed version, but it's often easier, it's easier to... The shelf life is easier when they're in packaged foods, but the ingredients in there, we don't even know exactly what each one of them does. We just know that when you consume them at the highest quantities, you have 80% more mental health days than someone who's consuming the lowest quantities.

Mel Robbins 12:01 Okay. So I wanna make sure that everybody just heard that. So one of the reasons why this is so important, and we're gonna keep digging into the connection between your cravings and your appetite and your hunger, and how this is attached to dopamine.

Dr. Amy Shah 12:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:18 The rush of dopamine, the drop of dopamine, the craving cycle that you're now trapped in. But you just said that if you eat more whole naturally occurring foods...... that you will be 80% better when it comes to the number of days that you are feeling good mentally? Is that- is that true?

Dr. Amy Shah 12:43 Yes. Yes.

Mel Robbins 12:43 Why?

Dr. Amy Shah 12:45 We are starting to understand that ultra-processed foods not only make us more inflamed,-

Mel Robbins 12:51 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 12:51 ... which we can talk about why inflammation is bad, but it makes- it ages you, gives you cancer, diabetes, heart disease, that's the root of all of it. It makes you sad, anxious, and it lowers your length of life. Like, so if you look at all cause mortality, ultra-processed foods will shorten your life. And yet, Mel, we live in a world where kids are eating over 70% of their diet is ultra-processed.

Mel Robbins 13:23 Wow, I think I gotta back up a minute-

Dr. Amy Shah 13:25 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 13:25 ... and just, (laughs) and- and 'cause there's so much to learn. This book has so much research in it and it also has so many what you call hunger hacks, which I love. And I wanna start with some basic questions.

Dr. Amy Shah 13:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:38 You said this thing earlier and I didn't wanna interrupt you. I'm almost, like, embarrassed to ask this question. How do you know when you're full?

Dr. Amy Shah 13:46 (laughs) It's such a good question. We've forgotten, right, what it feels like to be hungry or be full. Um, we're almost always just relying on external cues to tell us that. So there's various ways to feel full. So we have a couple of hormones that make us e- feel full. Leptin is one of them, CCK is another one, and there's various, um, signals that they give our brain, mostly just to stop eating. And so if you feel full, um, you won't want to eat food. However, the cravings pathway kicks in, so you may wanna eat desserts, but you won't wanna eat real food. So a quick way to test this-

Mel Robbins 14:30 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 14:31 ... is would you eat a bowl of vegetables right now? Are you?-

Mel Robbins 14:36 Right now? No.

Dr. Amy Shah 14:37 Then you're not hungry.

Mel Robbins 14:39 Oh. So can you explain to us what is going on in our bodies as it relates to feeling hungry?

Dr. Amy Shah 14:48 We now know, Mel, that our brain is not just in charge of our cravings and our mood and the way we show up in the world. We always think, "Oh, if you feel sad, you should just think, you know, do therapy or-"

Mel Robbins 15:02 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 15:02 "... start to think good thoughts."

Mel Robbins 15:03 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 15:04 But we now know that there's this connection between the brain and the gut.

Mel Robbins 15:09 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 15:09 And when you eat food, there's an impact in your gut that's sent directly to your brain, and your brain then sends signals back down to your gut, and the way you show up in the world is a result of this communication.

Mel Robbins 15:26 And what is the chicken or the egg-

Dr. Amy Shah 15:29 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 15:29 ... in the brain gut? Like, who goes first? Who's talking the loudest?

Dr. Amy Shah 15:33 Okay, so w- when we are formed, um, when we're an embryo, they're connected.

Mel Robbins 15:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 15:39 They're one. And then they stretch out and they move apart to the different ends of the body.

Mel Robbins 15:44 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 15:45 So you could say that they kind of happened from one ball of cells.

Mel Robbins 15:48 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 15:49 Um, and we can definitely say now with quite con- we can definitely say with confidence that changing our gut environment has a bigger impact on our brain than we ever thought. A bigger impact, so big that you can transplant the gut from one person to another and completely change their mental health.

Mel Robbins 16:14 Oh, I read about that study-

Dr. Amy Shah 16:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:16 ... where they s- they did- they switched guts-

Dr. Amy Shah 16:19 Yes.

Mel Robbins 16:19 ... in, was it mice?

Dr. Amy Shah 16:20 Yes.

Mel Robbins 16:21 Where mice that were schizophrenic-

Dr. Amy Shah 16:23 Yes.

Mel Robbins 16:24 Uh, well, you should say the study-

Dr. Amy Shah 16:25 Yeah, so-

Mel Robbins 16:25 ... 'cause I'm not the medical doctor.

Dr. Amy Shah 16:26 (laughs) No.

Mel Robbins 16:26 You are a doctor, Amy.

Dr. Amy Shah 16:27 So we- we now know that the gut microbiome has so many signaling pathways to the brain and sometimes the bacteria are louder actually than the brain, which is your question, like which one's louder?

Mel Robbins 16:39 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 16:40 If the gut bacteria wanna send a signal to the brain, they produce large amounts of dopamine and large amounts of serotonin to send a signal. So what they found is if you took animals and you gave them the microbiome from a schizophrenic human-

Mel Robbins 16:57 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 16:58 ... uh, person who was diagnosed, and then a microbiome from someone who was not diagnosed with schizophrenia, put that in mice into their gut, and you mix them up, the researchers were able to tell which mice got which gut bacteria just based on the behavior of the mice.

Mel Robbins 17:18 Based on the microbiome bacteria that they fed them?

Dr. Amy Shah 17:22 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 17:23 So I wanna get a visual here.

Dr. Amy Shah 17:25 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:25 Because I can't stop thinking about the fact that everybody's obsessed with ChatGBT right now-

Dr. Amy Shah 17:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 17:30 ... and AI and how you just insert this thing-

Dr. Amy Shah 17:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:33 ... and it spits out that thing.

Dr. Amy Shah 17:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:34 This whole cover letter, this whole resume, this whole this, wow, it's so unbelievable. I'm thinking in my mind, what I'm visualizing is I'll take what I ate for lunch, so I had a salad, I had a handful of walnuts, I had a couple scoops of a chocolate mousse keto thing.

Dr. Amy Shah 17:54 Delicious.

Mel Robbins 17:54 I had, um, a coconut macaroon.

Dr. Amy Shah 17:58 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 17:59 (laughs) I had a keto chocolate peanut butter little cup thing. And I'm thinking that all of that represents input into, like, the ChatGBT-

Dr. Amy Shah 18:12 Yes.

Mel Robbins 18:12 ... and then something else gets spit out, and what gets spit out from that is a message to my brain. Am I getting- am I tracking right?

Dr. Amy Shah 18:21 That's exactly what's happening. In fact, it's two ways. So you have to remember that our body's really smart, so they usually use two different pathways for each thing. So when you eat sugar, for example, it stimulates your brain straight from your mouth.And then you have these other receptors, these neuropods in the gut that sense the sugar also and they are making their own assessment and sending it to the gut. So the gut's like, "Oh yeah, it's sugar because I, I knew it was coming because I felt it from the mouth-"

Mel Robbins 18:54 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 18:54 "... and now you guys are telling me the same thing." So everything matches and they- you get the response. So it's, they, like, work together-

Mel Robbins 19:01 Wow.

Dr. Amy Shah 19:02 ... in understanding what's happening in your body.

Mel Robbins 19:04 Wow. It's amazing how sophisticated-

Dr. Amy Shah 19:07 It is amazing.

Mel Robbins 19:07 ... our bodies are. Like, as I'm mindlessly chucking walnuts into my mouth-

Dr. Amy Shah 19:11 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:11 ... I'm not thinking about the fact that there are these neurotransmitters, there are these hormones, there's all this signaling going on. And so you, in your book, Dr. Amy, you write that if you're in a cycle of emotional eating or if you're in a cycle where you have all of these cravings and you're always hungry and you're eating the wrong things, that it's not your fault.

Dr. Amy Shah 19:32 It's not your fault.

Mel Robbins 19:32 And it's not your fault

Mel Robbins 19:34 because your brain and your hormones are getting triggered by all this ultra-processed food.

Dr. Amy Shah 19:41 Yes.

Mel Robbins 19:41 And the ultra-processed food, it sounds like, is food that also keeps you craving it.

Dr. Amy Shah 19:49 Yes.

Mel Robbins 19:50 Because it's not occurring in the natural world and so your brain is like, "Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! Holy smokes! This Snickers bar is incredible! Oh my gosh!" You know? Uh, this, this baked whatever it is that I pulled out of a box and ripped out of a package and stuck into the air fryer, this is tantalizing because it's got all these chemicals in it.

Dr. Amy Shah 20:11 Yeah, it's the Miami Beach phenomenon, right? You get to South Beach and you're like, "Whoa! I want..." like your brain is like, "I feel good right now and I want that again." And then it's, "I want more of that again."

Mel Robbins 20:27 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 20:27 And the problem with our world is we're not educated about that.

Mel Robbins 20:30 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 20:31 I, as a physician, I said to myself, how many times was I rewarding myself with Starbucks and, you know, peppermint mochas and I would say to myself, "Oh, I, you know, I did a good job today so I'm going to get this sweet thing." And then it was every day, and then it was twice a day, and by the end of it, I had to recognize myself that this was happening to me. We need to talk about it more because if we can make ourselves happier, less irritable, less chasing things, we're going to be happier people. We c- we're gonna live longer. And so for me, this was like, okay, all these companies know about it and they're creating foods to trigger that pathway, why don't we know about it so we actually can be in control?

Mel Robbins 21:19 Well, you know, when we hear food, you think calories.

Dr. Amy Shah 21:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:22 You think, like, how many grams of fat, how many grams of sugar. I don't, I- I've never talked to anybody about the fact that there is this dopamine, serotonin, all of these hormones are impacted by it and it's also being driven by this kind of craving cycle in your brain.

Dr. Amy Shah 21:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:41 And so what do we do if we're not responsible for this situation? How the hell do we fix it? Like where do we all begin?

Dr. Amy Shah 21:48 Yeah. It, you know, the thing is, first understand that food creates mood.

Mel Robbins 21:55 Food creates mood.

Dr. Amy Shah 21:57 So we're always trying to find out ways to make ourselves happier-

Mel Robbins 22:02 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 22:02 ... think more clearly, be more satisfied, right?

Mel Robbins 22:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 22:06 And so that's why I got so interested in this work because with my background in nutrition and being a doctor, I thought, well, if we can control our mood through food and the actions that we take on a daily basis, why aren't we talking about this? Why isn't this first line therapy? Um, there's really good research, uh, a new study from South Australia that the combination of diet and exercise-

Mel Robbins 22:34 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 22:35 ... was 1.5 times more effective for

Dr. Amy Shah 22:39 depression than the leading medications.

Mel Robbins 22:42 Now explain why, because that's a big research result, that just through food and exercise-

Dr. Amy Shah 22:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:49 ... it's, was found to be one and a half times more effective than medication alone.

Dr. Amy Shah 22:54 And if you think about it, they actually even put therapy and medications, kind of the traditional treatment-

Mel Robbins 23:01 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 23:01 ... into one category.

Mel Robbins 23:02 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 23:03 And they compared that with changing your diet, with changing your sleep, your exercise lifestyle habits.

Mel Robbins 23:12 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 23:13 And they said we should be prescribing this as first line therapy for depression. There's an anxiety st- there are multiple anxiety studies. ADHD. I mean, we are missing the boat. Obviously we're not doing something right because depression is skyrocketing, so is anxiety, so is obesity, so is diabetes, so is cardiovascular disease. So the status quo is not working, so why not employ these techniques and put them at the forefront? So s- things like we talked about in- already and, that are in the book, are teaching you that we have control. That, yes, do all the things, but also change the way you eat, change the way you exercise, get more sunlight.

Mel Robbins 23:58 Well, you might be depressed and anxious and struggling with a lot of stuff because of what you're eating.

Dr. Amy Shah 24:06 Yes.

Mel Robbins 24:06 And because of your lifestyle right now. And so I think it's really great news to hear that you can feel better if you start to eat better and that this whole cycle that you are trapped in, in terms of the cravings that never end, and the cycle of emotional eating and feeling lethargic and feeling anxious, that you can, based on the research and based on the work that you do with patients around the world, that when you take your food intake seriously...You can profoundly change your mood, you can change your body, you can change your lifestyle, all of it, but it begins with the food. So, let's talk about the, you know, 'cause you say in the beginning of the book that you, there are certain types of food that you can eat to balance dopamine naturally. What are those foods?

Dr. Amy Shah 25:01 Yeah. So-

Mel Robbins 25:02 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 25:02 ... you want to be eating foods that are high in the amino acid, tyrosine. Tyrosine is the precursor for L-DOPA in the brain, and then L-DOPA gets converted to dopamine, so that's how we have dopamine. So, in the past, it was thought, "Well, you can't really do anything to boost the dopamine levels in your brain." Like, food has no connection. It's down here, the brain is up here-

Mel Robbins 25:26 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 25:27 ... so everyone used to say, "Well, it doesn't really matter, it's just about calories," you know. But now we know that eating more foods, doing more things, like getting sunlight, exercise, and certain foods that are high in tyrosine can help boost your dopamine.

Mel Robbins 25:46 Wow. What are some of those foods?

Dr. Amy Shah 25:47 So, one of them is dairy foods. So, tyrosine is an amino acid, so high protein foods, so dairy, soy, nuts, cherries, um, are all things I re- I have a huge list of, because you might not like cherries, you might not like, you know, might not tolerate dairy-

Mel Robbins 26:05 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:05 ... but you could do soy and you could do-

Mel Robbins 26:07 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:07 And so, um, you can eat these things, so what I would suggest is, say you're having a breakfast in the morning-

Mel Robbins 26:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:15 You wanna boost dopamine. Dopamine is very closely related to epinephrine, norepinephrine and epinephrine, which is adrenaline. So, in the morning, you wanna feel awake, alert, and motivated, you wanna eat things with higher dopamine that are gonna boost your dopamine level.

Mel Robbins 26:31 So, give me an example of what-

Dr. Amy Shah 26:32 So, I re-

Mel Robbins 26:32 ... would be a great thing to eat for breakfast.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:34 So, I love cottage cheese.

Mel Robbins 26:37 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:37 Okay. I know cottage cheese is controversial. You can do-

Mel Robbins 26:40 Why is-

Dr. Amy Shah 26:40 ... yogurt instead.

Mel Robbins 26:41 Who's mad at cottage cheese?

Dr. Amy Shah 26:42 Some people, I mean, c- cottage cheese is having a moment on social media.

Mel Robbins 26:45 It is? Like, as in it's bad?

Dr. Amy Shah 26:47 Uh, no, people either love it or hate it.

Mel Robbins 26:49 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:49 It's a divisive food because of the texture of it, and so I love it, but some people don't.

Mel Robbins 26:54 People need better hobbies-

Dr. Amy Shah 26:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 26:56 ... if they're arguing about cottage cheese online.

Dr. Amy Shah 26:59 It is. It's, but it's having a moment, thankfully. And, um, there's the cottage cheese ice cream, there's all these cottage cheese things.

Mel Robbins 27:05 Cottage cheese ice cream?

Dr. Amy Shah 27:07 Yes. It's all the rage. It's viral.

Mel Robbins 27:09 What?

Dr. Amy Shah 27:10 Um, you blend the cottage cheese with a little bit of sweetener and fruit, and then put it, um, and freeze it, and then you scoop it out like ice cream.

Mel Robbins 27:19 Wow.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 27:19 Is it any good?

Dr. Amy Shah 27:20 It's delicious.

Mel Robbins 27:21 Okay. Who knew? Cottage cheese.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:24 And you-

Mel Robbins 27:24 It's like, it's the new cauliflower.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:26 It's the new cauliflower.

Mel Robbins 27:26 It could be a pizza if it wanted.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:28 It w- it can turn into anything.

Mel Robbins 27:29 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 27:30 Um, so, co- cottage cheese in the morning with fruit and nuts.

Mel Robbins 27:34 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:34 And you have got yourself a high dopamine breakfast.

Mel Robbins 27:39 Wow. Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:39 And-

Mel Robbins 27:39 You also say there's six ways that you can boost serotonin naturally.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:43 S- so serotonin is kind of the calm, chill-

Mel Robbins 27:46 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:47 ... um, happiness hormone. And so, that's a nice one to do maybe in the evening-

Mel Robbins 27:51 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 27:51 ... because you wanna say, "Hey, I want to boost..." So, tryptophan is the amino acid, as you might have heard of tryptophan 'cause of turkey-

Mel Robbins 28:00 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 28:00 ... but it's also, um, ever present in eggs, it's in, um, also dairy food, lean meats, fish, um. And the way you can actually really get your zen feeling-

Mel Robbins 28:12 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 28:13 ... from that is pair it with a complex carbohydrate, so sweet potato, or, um, squash, or q- quinoa, and have the protein and the carbohydrate, and it gets you this nice burst of dopamine, especially, I mean, uh, serotonin. So, serotonin is really good for people for obviously mood, but also for sleep, 'cause serotonin is very close to melatonin.

Mel Robbins 28:35 Huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 28:35 And those people who struggle with nighttime awakenings should try the serotonin boosting foods in the evening.

Mel Robbins 28:43 Wow. Um, let's keep going-

Dr. Amy Shah 28:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 28:46 ... 'cause you've got so many hunger hacks. Like, let's talk about, there was one thing that you said that was very interesting, that sometimes when you feel hungry, you're actually thirsty.

Dr. Amy Shah 28:57 Yes.

Mel Robbins 28:57 How do you know the difference?

Dr. Amy Shah 28:58 Hunger and thirst are very closely related in the brain, and it's often mistaken. A- and as you know, often when you go on a health plan, what, trainers, they intuitively know this, they'll say, "First thing you do is drink 80 ounces of water."

Mel Robbins 29:14 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 29:14 And I said, I always used to say, like, "There's no science behind 80 ounces of water."

Mel Robbins 29:19 There isn't?

Dr. Amy Shah 29:20 No.

Mel Robbins 29:20 I thought you were supposed to drink, like-

Dr. Amy Shah 29:22 No.

Mel Robbins 29:22 ... uh, like your weight in water in ounces or something?

Dr. Amy Shah 29:25 There's no, our kidneys are very smart, very good at kind of titrating, um, how much water, eh, electrolyte balance we have. And so, you know, you wanna drink about eight ounces for every hour that you're, you know, eight hours a day, so-

Mel Robbins 29:41 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 29:41 ... maybe more like 64, but that's even not science-based, it's just kind of a estimate, guesstimate. You can't really overdo it, um, so it's nicer to have more. But the big thing that it does is that it helps us calm the hunger, because

Dr. Amy Shah 29:58 when you're dehydrated-

Mel Robbins 30:00 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 30:00 ... your body sends you thirst, but it also feels like hunger. And so, when you're adequately hydrating, you're able to kind of, um, feel fuller because you're not getting confused. And so, I think it's an easy, super easy thing anyone can do, is increase their water intake, and just watch, you're not going to be as hungry as you were before.

Mel Robbins 30:22 So, if anytime I feel hungry, should I drink a cup of water?

Dr. Amy Shah 30:26 Yes.

Mel Robbins 30:26 Or s- do I ask myself if I want vegetables? What's the trick?

Dr. Amy Shah 30:30 So, (laughs) both.

Mel Robbins 30:31 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 30:31 So, when you're trying to navigate this, and you have, first of all, take out as many ultra-processed foods as you can-

Mel Robbins 30:39 Okay, that's step one.

Dr. Amy Shah 30:40 ... t- step one. So, you-

Mel Robbins 30:40 Did you hear Dr. Amy?

Dr. Amy Shah 30:42 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 30:42 No ultra-processed food. If you can't-

Dr. Amy Shah 30:43 It's gonna be hard to do, no.

Mel Robbins 30:45 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 30:45 But we'll say, instead of 60% for adults or 70% for kids, we would wanna go to 40 or 30%, right?

Mel Robbins 30:53 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 30:54 So, it's the occasional ultra-processed food.That way you can actually hear the signals and you're not, like, getting drowned out by all these altered, um, signaling that's happening. And then you start to take note. You say, "Wow, every day around one o'clock is when..." That's for me, I'm giving my own example.

Mel Robbins 31:14 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 31:14 "After lunch is when I start to crave sweets even though I'm not hungry."

Mel Robbins 31:21 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 31:22 And so I'll ask myself, and I'm in the office usually, and I'll ask myself, "Am I hungry or am I just wanting something sweet?"

Mel Robbins 31:31 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 31:31 And that's the first question. And then I'll ask myself that vegetable test, like, "Should I eat," um, you know, would I want a bowl of vegetables right now? No. So then I say, "Let me just drink a glass of water, see how I feel in 15 minutes." So I get up, I drink a glass of water. I might have a sparkling water, I try to make it fun, you know, add some lemon or lime. And then ask yourself, like, "W- are you still hungry or craving or are you fine?" And that's a way to kind of get back with yourself. Right? We're always trying to be the most authentic version of ourselves and that goes with, what does my body want right now? What does it really want?

Mel Robbins 32:09 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 32:09 Versus what is the world telling me, um, I want? And if you're on a sugar and processed food cycle, you can't hear your own signals.

Mel Robbins 32:21 How- can you explain the cycle? 'Cause I think a lot of us are on the cycle, but we don't realize it.

Dr. Amy Shah 32:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:28 So, like you, right around two o'clock, we have a colleague who I adore who always has dark chocolate.

Dr. Amy Shah 32:36 Yes.

Mel Robbins 32:36 And I've worked with her for long enough that now two o'clock rolls around and I am looking for the candy.

Dr. Amy Shah 32:44 Yes (laughs) .

Mel Robbins 32:44 Looking for the chocolate. Explain the craving cycle.

Dr. Amy Shah 32:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:49 So that we can spot it when we're in it, 'cause I'm assuming that is a craving cycle we're in.

Dr. Amy Shah 32:55 Yes. Okay. This is the best way to think about the craving cycle.

Mel Robbins 32:59 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 33:00 When you eat something that you badly crave, it's pleasure mixed with pain. So discomfort. So you're eating it, but you're almost like, "Oh, should I be eating this? When can I get this again? Am I having too much?" It's like, it isn't a pure pleasure feeling. It's a pleasure and then when am I gonna get it again? I need to stop eating it right now. Most people can identify, based on this description, some foods that trigger that in them. And it could be a warm chocolate chip cookie, it could be, you know, p- you just eat it and you're like, "Oh, I can't wait to have this again," or, "I'm eating too much." And that's often, that's the craving cycle right there. And, you know, alcohol is very typical, um, for people because they'll, I have women clients who say to me all the time, "I crave that glass of wine or two glasses of wine-"

Mel Robbins 33:58 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 33:58 "... at the end of the day. And it's almost like if I don't get it, I'm irritable."

Mel Robbins 34:02 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 34:02 "And I just, I, I don't feel right." And that's, that's the cravings pathway right there.

Mel Robbins 34:07 So, it's interesting to hear you describe it like that because I'm sitting here trying to think, have I ever felt that with an apple?

Dr. Amy Shah 34:14 No.

Mel Robbins 34:15 I'm like, no. Have I ever felt that with broccoli? No. But I do feel that.

Dr. Amy Shah 34:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:21 In both the case of chocolate, I feel it sometimes in french fries.

Dr. Amy Shah 34:25 Yep.

Mel Robbins 34:26 Or if we go to a great bakery.

Dr. Amy Shah 34:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:28 As I'm starting to, like, shove a croissant the size of my-

Dr. Amy Shah 34:34 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 34:34 ... man hand here, I've got pretty large hands-

Dr. Amy Shah 34:36 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 34:37 ... that I feel that conflict. The first bite is heaven-

Dr. Amy Shah 34:41 Yes.

Mel Robbins 34:41 ... and then I start this conflicted-

Dr. Amy Shah 34:44 Yes.

Mel Robbins 34:44 ... inner dialogue around it. What is actually going on inside of us that creates that inner conflict?

Dr. Amy Shah 34:50 It's the dopamine.

Mel Robbins 34:52 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 34:52 Dopamine release also activates neural pathways that make us feel uncomfortable, agitated, almost like-

Mel Robbins 35:01 Huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 35:02 Um, that's why it's so, if you understand that dopamine pathway that we're describing, now you think about it and you see why people get irritable, they have poor mood, make bad decisions, when they are consistently cr- like, releasing dopamine from food or video games, Instagram. We live in a world where you could actually deplete your dopamine and you'll feel exhausted and you'll feel, it'll feel like ADHD, you can't concentrate.

Mel Robbins 35:35 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 35:36 It will feel like you're not really interested in anything anymore, life isn't e- you don't wanna go work out.

Mel Robbins 35:44 It sounds like burnout.

Dr. Amy Shah 35:45 Yeah. It's, it's, your dopamine pathways can get burned out in this world that we live in because there's so many excessive releases that if you play the video games, you eat the sugary food, and w- you know, so many of us do so many of these things. Like I said, I was that person. And at the end of the month or day, week, you're like, "I feel irritable. I don't f-" Unless you have all those things, you feel uncomfortable and irritable.

Mel Robbins 36:15 Can you explain the biology of hunger and cravings?

Dr. Amy Shah 36:17 Yes. Extremely important to know the difference and to know the difference, what's happening in your brain and your body.

Mel Robbins 36:24 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 36:24 When you're hungry, you have hunger hormones like ghrelin that are released to tell you to get nutrients from food. It's the way we survive in this world. And cravings, on the other hand, also have to do with survival, but it's telling us to go for the high-impact foods.

Mel Robbins 36:49 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 36:49 So cravings is the pleasure hormone cycle, it's a whole different pathway, does not use ghrelin.It is going through the dopamine pathway-

Mel Robbins 36:59 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 36:59 ... completely different area of your brain. Hunger and cravings are completely separate. Now, they obvi- obviously pair together in many, in many ways. Like, when women diet all the time. If you have lived in this world-

Mel Robbins 37:15 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 37:16 ... (laughs) and you have, um, ever been on some crash diets-

Mel Robbins 37:21 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 37:21 ... like I, I have, your dopamine levels, meaning your cravings go up, but so does the volume of your ghrelin.

Mel Robbins 37:29 Why?

Dr. Amy Shah 37:30 Because your body is sensing that you're not eating enough, that you skip meals, that you might be going into a deep caloric d- deficit. And so, it is turning up the volume. So, on the hunger side, it's turning up the volume on ghrelin.

Mel Robbins 37:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 37:49 On the craving side, it's turning up the volume on dopamine. So, the two separate pathways become one and people will say when you're dieting after, you're just starving, both, you know, for food and for desserts, and just your hunger is just out of control and so are your cravings.

Mel Robbins 38:08 Wow. So, that's fascinating to know that it's two different pathways.

Dr. Amy Shah 38:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:13 That a craving is very different in its signal and part of the dopamine cycle.

Dr. Amy Shah 38:17 Yes.

Mel Robbins 38:18 And that gremlin? Is that what it's called?

Dr. Amy Shah 38:20 It's ca- it sounds like gremlin, but it's ghrelin.

Mel Robbins 38:23 Ghrelin. Ghrelin.

Dr. Amy Shah 38:24 Ghrelin, leptin, um, neuropeptide YY, CCK, we have all these hormones that are supposed to remind us to eat, to r- tell us we're full, that's all part of hunger. Um, the craving pathway is the one we struggle with all the time. It's the, it's the dopamine pathway. That's-

Mel Robbins 38:45 I, the... I, I really get this, I think.

Dr. Amy Shah 38:49 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:49 I get this because what I'm realizing is you have a biological need to feed yourself or you will die.

Dr. Amy Shah 38:55 Yes.

Mel Robbins 38:55 But most of us are not struggling with our biological need to eat. We're struggling with the dopamine cycling, and crashing, and drive that comes with cravings.

Dr. Amy Shah 39:10 Yes.

Mel Robbins 39:10 Holy smokes.

Dr. Amy Shah 39:13 Dopamine is the most powerful motivator. And food companies, video game companies, gambling,

Dr. Amy Shah 39:22 porn, every- they all know that dopamine is so strong, Mel, that dopamine is the only neurotransmitter in our body that can get us out of a seat, whatever we're doing, stop whatever we're doing, get in a car, and go get that thing that dopamine is telling us to do.

Mel Robbins 39:44 Yeah, it's like, "Drive, go, do."

Dr. Amy Shah 39:47 I can't think about anything else.

Mel Robbins 39:48 Huh. So, what? You just mentioned leptin, or leptin. How do you u- what is it and how do you use it to hack hunger?

Dr. Amy Shah 39:57 Leptin is our fullness signal.

Mel Robbins 40:00 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 40:00 So, the opposite of ghrelin.

Mel Robbins 40:02 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 40:03 And it's great because it tells us, "Hey, you're full. You don't need to eat anymore." And so leptin, when it gets released, um, makes us just say, "I'm good." And we want more leptin to e- understand our... So, hear our hunger cues. Our leptin often... We can't hear it, um, because everything else is so loud, right?

Mel Robbins 40:28 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 40:29 So, one of the ways, best ways to sensitize your leptin is to sleep more.

Mel Robbins 40:36 Really?

Dr. Amy Shah 40:36 That's one of the best ways. If you've ever noticed, after a bad night's sleep, you-

Mel Robbins 40:42 I wanna eat.

Dr. Amy Shah 40:43 You wanna eat.

Mel Robbins 40:43 Why?

Dr. Amy Shah 40:44 And you just don't want... You just don't feel full. Your leptin is 33% less.

Mel Robbins 40:51 You're right. You do wake up after a bad night's sleep feeling like you're starving.

Dr. Amy Shah 40:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:57 But if you have a really good night's sleep, you wake up feeling calm and relaxed.

Dr. Amy Shah 41:01 Yes.

Mel Robbins 41:02 And I don't have the hunger pain.

Dr. Amy Shah 41:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:06 And unless I'm addicted to something in the morning, I don't really have the craving dopamine cycle either.

Dr. Amy Shah 41:10 Yeah. So, if you think about it, we wanna start to use our inner signaling pathways-

Mel Robbins 41:17 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 41:17 ... to hear what our body's telling us because our body is really smart. And so leptin, that one of the best ways is to get more sleep. Another really great way is to eat more omega-3 fatty acids.

Dr. Amy Shah 41:31 So, omega-3 fatty acids are one of the things in salmon. Uh, for people who don't eat fish, it's in algae oil. Um, so you can take the algae oil. Um, uh, nuts have omega-3. It's a great way to start to get your leptin back up, so that-

Mel Robbins 41:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 41:48 ... a lot of people will start eating more omega-3 fatty acids and all of a sudden, they're not as hungry anymore. And part of the signaling is through both leptin and CCK, um, which are both kind of the satiation, satisfaction. Don't we all wanna just be more satisfied?

Mel Robbins 42:06 Yes. Now, can you take leptin in a pill?

Dr. Amy Shah 42:09 Um, there's no leptin in a pill as of yet.

Mel Robbins 42:12 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 42:12 But that would be the million dollar drug, right? (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:14 Oh, that's true. That's not what that Wegovy or whatever the heck it's called-

Dr. Amy Shah 42:17 So-

Mel Robbins 42:17 ... is doing?

Dr. Amy Shah 42:18 So, d- glp-1-

Mel Robbins 42:21 I don't know what that is.

Dr. Amy Shah 42:22 ... is a hormone-

Mel Robbins 42:23 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 42:24 ... that matches, that works in conjunction with leptin-

Mel Robbins 42:27 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 42:28 ... to make you feel full. The medications, Ozempic, Wegovy, all of those medications in that class, um, are glp-1 agonists, which means it raises our level, our natural level of these satiation hormones. And so glp-1 is kind of like leptin in the sense that it makes us feel full.

Mel Robbins 42:53 Huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 42:53 And it's naturally released by our gut when we're full.We can eat things like nuts and certain foods that actually release more GLP-1 naturally. So, you can get the same effect naturally, so getting more sleep, exercise. These are all ways to actually get more of that natural hormone to make you feel more full.

Mel Robbins 43:13 Wow. Um, do you have a simple way to stop yourself from overeating if you're just a chronic overeater?

Dr. Amy Shah 43:23 There's- (laughs) there's a few simple-

Mel Robbins 43:25 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 43:26 ... ways. Um, if you want to stop overeating-

Mel Robbins 43:30 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 43:31 ... one of the things you can do is you pair the good activity, uh, a good activity right after the bad activity.

Mel Robbins 43:41 So, give me an example.

Dr. Amy Shah 43:42 So, it's like a positive replacement behavior.

Mel Robbins 43:44 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 43:45 So, you, um, did something that you didn't want to do, maybe you ate an ultra-processed food that you are trying to cut down.

Mel Robbins 43:54 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 43:54 Immediately after, go for a sunny walk.

Mel Robbins 43:58 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 43:59 The positive replacement behavior will slowly get longer and teach your neural pathways that you don't want to be doing the negative. The other way (laughs) is to retrain your brain. So, say you crave this candy bar like a Snickers.

Mel Robbins 44:17 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 44:19 What you do instead is you take a dark chocolate, a s- also another pleasure, um, creating, uh, food.

Mel Robbins 44:28 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 44:29 And you replace the, uh, Snickers-

Mel Robbins 44:32 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 44:33 ... with the, uh, healthier chocolate.

Mel Robbins 44:35 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 44:36 And the way you do it is intermittent surprise reward. So, let me explain that to you.

Mel Robbins 44:44 Okay. So, let's just say it's 2:00 in the afternoon.

Dr. Amy Shah 44:48 It's 2:00 in the afternoon.

Mel Robbins 44:48 And Mel has, for many months, been reaching for an ultra-processed candy bar.

Dr. Amy Shah 44:56 Yes.

Mel Robbins 44:56 And it is now the new day, I have heard this podcast with Dr. Amy, and I'm gonna try this approach. What am I doing?

Dr. Amy Shah 45:05 You are going to intermittently reward yourself with a healthier version of that dark chocolate. So, either pick it out of a- um, uh, um, a fishbowl with like little papers in it, or ask someone that's working with you to say, "Randomly, three days a week, I get a reward."

Mel Robbins 45:25 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:25 But it has to be random because-

Mel Robbins 45:27 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:27 ... dopamine works the best when you get a random reward.

Mel Robbins 45:30 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:31 And you are trying to rewire your system.

Mel Robbins 45:34 Okay, to not want that ultra-processed candy bar.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:36 And instead, crave the healthier version.

Mel Robbins 45:40 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:41 So, it's Wednesday. "Oh, today is my reward

Dr. Amy Shah 45:45 day." So then, you sit with the, um, new dark chocolate. You go through it, and you basically, I call it my three, two, one method.

Mel Robbins 45:54 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:54 So, three random days a week-

Mel Robbins 45:55 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 45:56 ... two minutes telling yourself how much you love this chocolate.

Mel Robbins 45:59 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 46:00 It's so much, it's such a better choice. CBT, which is cognitive-

Mel Robbins 46:03 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 46:03 ... behavioral therapy.

Mel Robbins 46:04 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 46:04 Saying, "I'm so happy I chose this."

Mel Robbins 46:06 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 46:06 One minute savoring it, and you have, you do this for two weeks, and you have replaced that bad habit with a good one.

Mel Robbins 46:13 No k- okay, so let me just make sure I got this. So, if it's three, two, one method and I'm picking three days this week, could I, if I don't have somebody to do this with me, could I just set an alarm in my phone-

Dr. Amy Shah 46:22 Yes.

Mel Robbins 46:22 ... randomly? Alarm goes off, boom, that's the random-

Dr. Amy Shah 46:26 Yes.

Mel Robbins 46:26 ... rep- intermittent replacement.

Dr. Amy Shah 46:28 Yes.

Mel Robbins 46:30 Second thing I do is I tell myself the reasons why this is a better choice.

Dr. Amy Shah 46:36 Yes.

Mel Robbins 46:36 The reasons why I'm proud of myself, and then the final thing that I do is I pop that sucker in my mouth, and I enjoy-

Dr. Amy Shah 46:42 Sit down and enjoy it.

Mel Robbins 46:43 ... the, and slow down the process of enjoying it. How the heck, after a couple weeks of doing this, would this make my brain no longer want the ultra-processed candy bar?

Dr. Amy Shah 46:53 Because I'll tell you why. If you look at the other way around, in the negative sense-

Mel Robbins 46:59 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 46:59 ... this happens all the time.

Mel Robbins 47:01 That's true.

Dr. Amy Shah 47:01 We get addicted all the time to things that intermittently reward us with dopamine. Gambling.

Mel Robbins 47:09 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 47:11 You don't win, you don't win, you don't win, you don't win, you win big. Dopamine explosion, now you want it again. You do that a few times, and guess what? Now, you are craving that. And so the way it works in real life is the most addicting, the biggest dopamine releases is when you get an intermittent reward.

Mel Robbins 47:36 Mm.

Dr. Amy Shah 47:37 Think about relationships, toxic relationships, okay?

Mel Robbins 47:40 Let's talk toxic relationships. It's a lot like craving a processed candy bar.

Dr. Amy Shah 47:45 It is. And that guy or gal gives you the intermittent rewards.

Mel Robbins 47:53 Mm.

Dr. Amy Shah 47:53 They give you what you need, just enough to keep you craving and going back for more. You know how this works. This happens all the time, e- especially in this new dating world where you won't hear from someone and then you will, and it kind of keeps you hooked on that person. And they, the people who do it often know that intermittently kind of giving them love, attention, and affection will be enough to keep them coming back for more.

Mel Robbins 48:27 It's so true 'cause if you think about either the times in your life when you've been stuck in that pattern or if you have a friend or a family member who's super annoying-

Dr. Amy Shah 48:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:36 ... and is stuck in a very toxic relationship dynamic, what do they do? They spend a lot of time arguing and explaining those intermittent-

Dr. Amy Shah 48:49 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 48:50 ... inconsistent moments where the person actually was a good person, but he actually did do this, and s-

Dr. Amy Shah 48:56 They followed through.

Mel Robbins 48:57 Yeah, they followed through.And so, if I go back to the candy bar idea, this is so fascinating, do you still eat the ultra-processed candy bar during the two weeks that I'm trying this intermittent reward thing?

Dr. Amy Shah 49:10 You co-... So, you could, but the ideal version-

Mel Robbins 49:14 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 49:14 ... would be to take that and give yourself a new kind of addiction, or a new craving that is a healthier craving. So, you can do that

Dr. Amy Shah 49:23 with anything, but candy bar, to dark chocolate is a great example. We can do that with so many different things in our life, but food, you can create new memories, new craving pathways.

Mel Robbins 49:33 Mm.

Dr. Amy Shah 49:34 Because we have a lot of memories, um, dopamine has neural pathways from when you're a kid. So, reversing those are tough.

Mel Robbins 49:44 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 49:44 You have to do this a few t- you know, that's what I'm saying, you got to do it for a few weeks to really feel like now you've replaced that behavior.

Mel Robbins 49:52 Wow, I think I'm gonna try that with drinking.

Dr. Amy Shah 49:54 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 49:54 Tell me about psychobiotics. What the heck are those, and how do they help you stop this cycle of craving?

Dr. Amy Shah 50:01 They found-

Mel Robbins 50:02 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 50:02 ... that there's certain gut bacteria, and they call them psychobiotics because those gut bacteria that's present in people who have depression-

Mel Robbins 50:15 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 50:15 ... are the same. And there's gut bacteria that are people that are always, like, happy, uh, or they have a positive outlook on life. They have a specific set of gut bacteria.

Mel Robbins 50:27 Huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 50:29 They noticed that there are even studies where you can take Prevotella, you can take, uh-

Mel Robbins 50:36 What's Prevotella?

Dr. Amy Shah 50:37 It's a type of bacteria. You can take lactobacillus, a type of bacteria.

Mel Robbins 50:41 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 50:41 You can add-

Mel Robbins 50:42 Should I take this? Like right now I'm starting-

Dr. Amy Shah 50:44 Yes.

Mel Robbins 50:44 ... like, "Where's my pen? I don't know what to do! I wanna be happy or not depressed, and-

Dr. Amy Shah 50:48 Yes.

Mel Robbins 50:48 ... I don't wanna be eating that chocolate at 2:00. Dr. Amy, help me."

Dr. Amy Shah 50:51 (laughs) So, the world of psychobiotics-

Mel Robbins 50:54 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 50:54 ... is the next foray for mental health, because-

Mel Robbins 50:58 It sounds sexy, psychobiotics.

Dr. Amy Shah 50:59 Yeah. Like, it is that you can actually change your brain-

Mel Robbins 51:05 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 51:06 ... through the bacteria in your gut.

Mel Robbins 51:08 So, this is very similar to what you said about food and mood.

Dr. Amy Shah 51:11 Yes.

Mel Robbins 51:12 So, if you start to take what Dr. Amy's saying very seriously, she is making the case for why ultra-processed foods are fucking your mood up and keeping you trapped in these cycles of craving and dopamine that make you feel miserable, that make you feel out of control. And now, if I'm tracking correctly, we're going a layer deeper. Because if we get specific about the bacteria that you put into your gut, the stuff that's gonna break all that crap down and that's gonna create some sort of magical elixir in your gut that will then ChatGP,

Mel Robbins 51:48 send the message up to your brain, that this has implications for depression, for anxiety, for all kinds of mental health stuff. Is that what you're saying?

Dr. Amy Shah 51:56 That's what I'm saying. And it's not just anxiety and depression anymore. It is autism, Parkinson's, um, it is ADHD, it is every single mental health condition that we are struggling with-

Mel Robbins 52:11 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 52:11 ... in our modern world, seems to be stemming from that bidirectional. Like I said, they talk to each other both ways.

Mel Robbins 52:19 The brain and the gut.

Dr. Amy Shah 52:20 Uh, the brain talks to the gut, the gut talks to the brain. And now we're learning that we left this whole half on the table.

Mel Robbins 52:30 In terms of the gut, you're absolutely right. Because if you think about it, everybody, we have been addressing mental health from the neck up, and we've been addressing it typically with talk therapy or some sort of pharmaceutical drug that presumably acts on your brain and your neurotransmitters. But aren't the majority of your neurotransmitters in your gut?

Dr. Amy Shah 52:51 Yes. People will say to me, "Well, those neurotransmitters in the gut are so far from the ones in the brain." But what's fascinating is that we're seeing a very tight correlation. Like I said, they talk to each other, and when your gut is producing lots of dopamine, serotonin, these gut bacteria are signaling to the brain in at least four different ways that we know to also release dopamine and serotonin. And so what they're doing is they're sending signals through the nerves, they're sending hormones, they're sending these things called short chain fatty acids, which the gut bacteria make these things called short chain fatty acids, and they go to the brain, and they make it feel happy or sad. So, we are now aware of at least four different ways that what's in your gut is affecting what's going on in your brain.

Mel Robbins 53:49 So, Dr. Amy, give me the list. What are the bacteria I need to be taking?

Dr. Amy Shah 53:52 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 53:52 And what is a bacteria anyway? Like, how is bacteria different than food?

Dr. Amy Shah 53:56 Yes.

Mel Robbins 53:56 I know that's a bizarro question, but if I'm eating an apple, the second that you described an apple, you're like, "Okay, you got sugar, you got water-

Dr. Amy Shah 54:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:03 ... you got fiber. Fiber's really important. You got certain vitamins. That signals to your brain that, that you're actually eating something, and that's gonna help you make f- y- make you be fuller." And I didn't even think about the fact that an apple has all that stuff in it.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 54:17 How is it dif- like, where does bacteria come in?

Dr. Amy Shah 54:19 Yeah. Okay. This is such a great question. It goes back to the fact that we're actually not just ourselves, we're equally, um, bacterial cells. Our body is equally bacterial cells.

Mel Robbins 54:35 I don't even know what the hell that means.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:37 Okay. So, in...

Mel Robbins 54:39 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 54:39 When you go through the mouth-

Mel Robbins 54:41 Yup.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:42 ... you go into your throat-

Mel Robbins 54:43 Yup.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:43 ... you go into your stomach-

Mel Robbins 54:45 Uh-huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:45 ... and then there's these intestines-

Mel Robbins 54:47 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:47 ... and then there's the anus, and you poop it out.

Mel Robbins 54:51 Yup.

Dr. Amy Shah 54:51 In that GI tract, there is a world that lives there, and it's full of bacteria, viruses-

Mel Robbins 55:00 Ooh.

Dr. Amy Shah 55:01 And even protozoans are like, you know, people think of, like, these organisms. It's almost there is a world that is living inside of your body that doesn't belong to you.

Mel Robbins 55:13 Whoa! I've never thought about (laughs) the fact that if you really think about your mouth and how your mouth leads to a series of internal tubes that lead to the poop chute-

Dr. Amy Shah 55:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:31 ... to get it all out of there, that that's like an internal sewer.

Dr. Amy Shah 55:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 55:35 It is a superhighway for outside access through your body.

Dr. Amy Shah 55:41 Yes.

Mel Robbins 55:42 And when you put food in your mouth, your entire GI tract is trying to squeeze nutrients from it and get the waste out.

Dr. Amy Shah 55:51 And guess what? They can't do it without the thick lining of gut bacteria that go all the way through to the anal opening. So, what I'm saying to you is that there's more bacteria, there's like a thick bacterial lining.

Mel Robbins 56:08 Huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:08 There's just, like, one, um, layer of our own cells that do the work-

Mel Robbins 56:13 Wow.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:13 ... that we need to be done.

Mel Robbins 56:14 If we didn't have the bacteria in there, what would happen?

Dr. Amy Shah 56:19 We would damage our body all the time.

Mel Robbins 56:22 How so?

Dr. Amy Shah 56:23 So, what we are learning now is that as we are modernizing, our thick layer is becoming thinner layer.

Mel Robbins 56:30 Uh-huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:31 And then there's areas that aren't, um, even thin. It's almost like blank and it's just our one layer of, uh, gut cells. So, what's happening is they get damaged.

Mel Robbins 56:41 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:41 And they get damaged from the toxins that we eat-

Mel Robbins 56:44 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:44 ... to foods, the alcohol, the antibiotics, the ibuprofen, whatever, all that shit that we all eat-

Mel Robbins 56:51 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:51 ... and take in. And what happens is those cell walls get damaged.

Mel Robbins 56:56 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 56:57 And you start to have problems, because when that cell wall gets damaged, I'll give you a visual. There's something traveling through your gut.

Mel Robbins 57:05 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:05 It damages that cell wall.

Mel Robbins 57:07 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:08 All of a sudden, your whole immune system comes there 'cause it's like a cut.

Mel Robbins 57:12 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:12 Like, something hurt you.

Mel Robbins 57:13 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:14 Your whole immune system comes there as if you had a cut.

Mel Robbins 57:16 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:17 And says, "Hey, we're h- there's an inflammatory response here." And this keeps happening all over the place. You have all these fires that are now happening.

Mel Robbins 57:27 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:27 And that's inflammation of the gut.

Mel Robbins 57:30 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:32 So, when your stomach hurts after you eat it, uh, after you eat gluten, people say, "Oh, now I can't stand gluten. I can't eat, um, this food, I can't eat that food. I'm having an allergy to it."

Mel Robbins 57:43 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:43 Or I'm having-

Mel Robbins 57:43 Or an intolerance or whatever.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:45 Yeah. That's what's happening. And when you hear the word leaky gut-

Mel Robbins 57:48 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 57:48 ... that's what they're referring to.

Mel Robbins 57:50 Got it. Okay. So, what bacteria should we all... Like, do we take bacteria?

Dr. Amy Shah 57:55 Okay.

Mel Robbins 57:55 Is this what probiotics are? Like, what is going... Like, I don't even know where to start.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:00 I love that question because I get this every single day. People are always like, "So which bacteria do I take?"

Mel Robbins 58:07 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:07 That-

Mel Robbins 58:07 Is that what a probiotic is?

Dr. Amy Shah 58:09 Yes.

Mel Robbins 58:09 A probiotic is a-

Dr. Amy Shah 58:10 Is a bacteria.

Mel Robbins 58:12 ... a, a pro bacteria, meaning we are for the bacteria-

Dr. Amy Shah 58:15 Yes.

Mel Robbins 58:16 ... going in. Okay, got it.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:17 (laughs) A probiotic is an actual, um, bacteria. So, we're trying to add more bacteria to that, um, thick lining-

Mel Robbins 58:24 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:24 ... that can help us, right?

Mel Robbins 58:25 Got it, okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:26 But the problem is, is that studies are inconsistent. Sometimes we're seeing lactobacillus and prevotella are boosting, you know, depression, uh, mood. Other times, it's not doing anything.

Mel Robbins 58:38 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:38 Other times, it's helping the antidepressant. So, we still, we still say, I say, "Hey, I already know, Mel, how to improve your gut bacteria."

Mel Robbins 58:49 Uh-huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 58:50 "And you don't need pills or a probiotic to do that."

Mel Robbins 58:54 What do I need?

Dr. Amy Shah 58:55 You need to eat the food that feeds it, meaning fiber, real food, not ultra-processed food.

Mel Robbins 59:00 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:01 So, fiber.

Mel Robbins 59:02 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:02 You need to eat food that have natural bacteria in it, yogurt, kimchi, kombucha, um, all-

Mel Robbins 59:11 Sauerkraut.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:11 Sauerkraut.

Mel Robbins 59:13 Is vinegar good?

Dr. Amy Shah 59:13 Apple cider vinegar, the raw.

Mel Robbins 59:15 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:16 You need to eat more of that. In fact, they found that four servings, four to six servings a day of, of probiotic food-

Mel Robbins 59:24 Uh-huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:25 ... was actually the best at increasing the amount of happy bacteria in your body.

Mel Robbins 59:30 Wow. And what about your, um, what about, uh, so yogurt is okay if it's, like, are the labels 'cause it seems like everybody's adding-

Dr. Amy Shah 59:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:42 ... probiotics to things.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:44 (laughs) Our bodies su- are so smart. Our body knows that when you're carrying bacteria in your, in your gut, they're gonna first try to kill it 'cause they're, they think it's foreign. So, when you're taking a probiotic pill, a supplement, a lot of it gets killed-

Mel Robbins 59:58 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 59:58 ... because your body's like, "Oh, this is bacteria, we gotta kill it." Could be bad bacteria, right? When it's inc- in the mesh, think about it like in the net of the food-

Mel Robbins 1:00:08 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:00:09 ... in a sauerkraut, in a kimchi, even in apple cider vinegar, uh, naturally occurring, they let it pass through. And so it gets to the lower part of the gut where it needs to be.

Mel Robbins 1:00:18 Interesting.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:00:18 And so we are now realizing that, oh, wait, we should be doing more things that increase a happy bacteria. You know what the number one probiotic is?

Mel Robbins 1:00:29 I have no idea.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:00:30 Exercise.

Mel Robbins 1:00:31 How the hell is exercise a probiotic?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:00:34 Gut bacteria love when you move.

Mel Robbins 1:00:38 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:00:39 Um, and they produce this thing called short-chain fatty acids.

Mel Robbins 1:00:44 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:00:44 And I mentioned short-chain fatty acids before when I was talking about the brain-gut connection. When you exercise, those short-chain fatty acids go to the brain, go all over the body and calm the inflammation. They calm your brain. You feel good. You feel, and they grow the bacteria in the gut. It's a signal.

Mel Robbins 1:01:05 That's so cool. All right. So-The instructions are actually very clear. The science that explains why this is so important is profound. It's very clear, based on the case that you're making, that if you were to focus on whole foods, or mostly whole foods-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:01:27 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:27 ... and you were to really become diligent about removing as many unprocessed or unhealthy, in terms of fried and processed foods from your diet, you would see a significant change in your mood, you would see a significant change in your energy, and a significant change in your overall health. If you add in exercise, not only because it helps boost the natural production of bacteria, but we also now know based on this new research study that a change in your diet and consistent exercise can be more effective than taking an antidepressant and going to therapy for depression, because your body is designed to heal itself and to run properly. And even if you have spent a lifetime jamming Big Macs-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:02:20 (laughs) Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:02:20 ... down your face and you feel stuck in this craving cycle, that you can reverse this. I think that's so hopeful. How do you ... You say that you can get rid of, let's say, like, a sweet tooth in 30 days. How do you do that?

Mel Robbins 1:02:39 For those of us that like sugar in our coffee-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:02:42 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:02:42 ... you know who I'm talking to.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:02:44 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:02:44 For those of us that love dessert, we crave it, baby, like, how do we get rid of it?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:02:52 I'm gonna tell you something so profound. Okay?

Mel Robbins 1:02:55 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:02:57 When they did a study, they planned it to be 30 days, actually, to change someone's diet very drastically.

Mel Robbins 1:03:05 Okay. So, like, give me the drastic.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:07 Um, go from ... So, what they did is if heavy processed meat, sugar, um, soda-

Mel Robbins 1:03:14 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:14 Um, so all the worst foods, so if I had to rank the worst foods, it would be like-

Mel Robbins 1:03:18 Give it to me.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:18 ... high fructose corn syrup, soda, so sodas.

Mel Robbins 1:03:20 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:21 But drinks also, so juices, proc- you know, orange juice from the grocery store is in the soda category, by the way.

Mel Robbins 1:03:27 Wait. Orange juice from the grocery store-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:30 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:03:30 ... is in the soda category?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:32 It's pa- it's heat pasteurized. Okay? It's hot. So, all those vitamins that we were hoping for are nuked. The fiber is filtered out, and all you're left with is the water and the sugar.

Mel Robbins 1:03:47 Wa- so is the fiber the pulp?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:50 Yeah. So, if you are drinking an orange juice that's-

Mel Robbins 1:03:55 That's been pasteurized?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:03:56 ... been pasteurized.

Mel Robbins 1:03:56 Does that mean they've boiled it and then put it through a filter and they've s- basically boiled out all the nutrients and then strained it?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:03 All that's left.

Mel Robbins 1:04:04 You're kidding.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:06 So, it's like people drink juice as if it's a health food, right? Like, it's, "Oh, it's juice." Like, you know, I'm, I switch from soda to juice. Like, soda has a bad connotation, right? But juice is just as bad. Like, if you get a juice from the shelf-

Mel Robbins 1:04:24 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:24 ... that ha- and you read the back and you see the sugar content, it rivals a soda.

Mel Robbins 1:04:33 Wow. Okay. So top, high fructose corn syrup in soda. What's another one?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:37 So, high fructose corn syrup, soda is probably the top.

Mel Robbins 1:04:42 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:42 Okay? Processed meats.

Mel Robbins 1:04:45 What is a processed meat?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:46 Um, so processed meats means, like, uh, not your grass-fed, um, burger, but the one from the drive-through with-

Mel Robbins 1:04:54 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:04:55 ... the cheese and ... You know, pro- processed meat and dairy is, like, the ch- the cheese and the meat that has been, um, uh, addi- there's additives in it. It's not just-

Mel Robbins 1:05:06 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:05:06 ... the meat. There's also m- things like bacon often have nitrates and they have flavoring and sugar. There's all these flavors in it. So, processed meat, hot dogs is a great example.

Mel Robbins 1:05:17 Okay. Meat sticks. (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 1:05:17 Um, because they're just basically putting a bunch of meat together, but they're adding all these other non-food items-

Mel Robbins 1:05:23 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:05:23 ... ultra-processed. So, um, you take high fructose corn syrup, you take processed meat, processed dairy, and now they said, "Let's just switch their diet so drastically," and actually do it in a clinical center where they're only allowed to eat with us, and they change it to a high vegetable, um, fruit, no juices or sodas, no processed meat. They started to look at their stool to see what the gut bacteria were doing, so we can-

Mel Robbins 1:05:56 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:05:56 ... fi- find out, okay, like, how long does this really take?

Mel Robbins 1:05:58 How long does it take?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:05:59 So, in two weeks, they saw a drastic change, but guess how long it took to even, like, to s- see a marked difference.

Mel Robbins 1:06:08 I have no idea.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:06:09 Three days.

Mel Robbins 1:06:10 Three days?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:06:11 In three days of this r- rapidly shift in diet-

Mel Robbins 1:06:16 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:06:17 ... you had a whole new gut bacterial colonies happening.

Mel Robbins 1:06:21 That's all it took?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:06:22 That's all it took. They didn't take any special probiotics. They just ate, you know, food, yogurt, and they ate the fresh fruits and vegetables. And it took three days.

Mel Robbins 1:06:34 Wow. Now, was it vegetarian, or did they have-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:06:36 That one ... So, this is a, um, a study in Nature. It's, uh, the highest level journal in, you know, in the world. It's like the Harvard of journals. Nat- it was a processed meat, sugar-heavy diet to a primarily plant-based, whole foods diet.

Mel Robbins 1:06:55 Wow. Wow.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:06:55 And so of course there's arguments about, it's not the meat, it, it's the pro- th- that it's processed, it wasn't that this, it's that th- So you can argue about the semantics, but the big picture here is, you have the power. Like, you always say, and I always say this too, we can save ourselves. We...... can change our mood, we can change our lifespan, we can change how we come into this world every day. We have the power and it takes three days.

Mel Robbins 1:07:24 Wow. Talk to me about drinking warm water.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:07:28 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:07:28 Why warm water?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:07:29 Well-

Mel Robbins 1:07:29 That sounds horrendous.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:07:30 It is, it's not to, meant to say that water, I would say, is so good for you.

Mel Robbins 1:07:37 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:07:38 Whether you eat it, as drink it cold, whether you drink it warm. But there are some theories that if you drink water warm, or room temperature I guess I would say, it's more easily absorbed for you.

Mel Robbins 1:07:53 By what?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:07:54 It can give you-

Mel Robbins 1:07:54 Like your body?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:07:55 Your body. And so there's no warming that needs to happen 'cause, you know, we are internally, we're 98 degrees, or...

Mel Robbins 1:08:02 Oh, that's true.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:08:03 And so you're, when you're drinking water, most other countries around the world, as you know, don't drink ice cold drinks, um, and definitely not ice cold water. And you can do, and, you know, I'm, I've studied Ayurveda which is, um, an ancient Indian, uh, medical system that believes that you should match the temperature of your food to your, um, internal temperature, meaning that if you tend to be someone who's hot and who's angry, who tends to err on the side of red, um, redness in their skin, and, uh, that's called a pitta. Pittas should drink cooler temperature water. Whereas a lot of us are vatas, which means that we thrive on warm foods and warm water because the, we are, tend to be anxious, flighty, and cooler, um, internal temperatures, so you want to complement that with a warmer, um, food base. So you want soups instead of salads, you want warm water instead of cold water. And so it's a ancient, so in China and in India, the ancient medicine kind of tells you that the temperature of the food, especially when it's warmer, tends to be better, especially if you're dealing with anxiety.

Mel Robbins 1:09:27 Wow. So anxious people eat warmer food?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:09:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:09:31 It does have a calming effect, if I think about it.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:09:34 It is. It's, if you think about the ancient, when I think about Ayurveda and all of the things that they talk about, some things are really out there, but so many things make sense to me. For example, if you're more of a vata, which is an air, uh, that means that you have a very airy, your thoughts are all over the place-

Mel Robbins 1:09:52 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:09:53 ... you can't, you know, you tend to be anxious when things don't go well. Um, you tend to be, speak very fast and move very fast. You need more calming earthing energy, so that's warm energy and earth energy, so fire and earth. So that's how-

Mel Robbins 1:10:09 I love that. Um, how do you know if you're getting enough sleep based on the things that you study?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:17 Yes, um-

Mel Robbins 1:10:18 'Cause you hear eight hours.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:19 Y- how many, how many hours do you sleep, by the way?

Mel Robbins 1:10:22 Um, the older I get, the more boring I am.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:25 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:10:25 So I would say nine or ten.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:28 Yeah. I love that. Um, people who sleep less than six hours have a higher mortality, they have lower mood, um, and they ha- are hungrier, as we said, with the leptin.

Mel Robbins 1:10:42 Ah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:42 Um, what you want to do is really to realize how much sleep you need is when you sleep, without an alarm, how many hours

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:55 do you sleep? And not when you're sleep deprived, but-

Mel Robbins 1:10:57 Oh, I bet I sleep ten hours.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:10:59 Yeah. That's-

Mel Robbins 1:10:59 If I don't have an alarm on, I sleep way longer than I think I'm going to.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:11:07 When you look at the last couple of weeks of your life-

Mel Robbins 1:11:12 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:11:12 ... the best days, the, when you felt the most refreshed, the best mood-

Mel Robbins 1:11:19 Were the days I got the best am- the highest amount of sleep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:11:23 That's how much-

Mel Robbins 1:11:23 By far.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:11:24 That's how much sleep you need. And every American that's listening to this is gonna be like, "I can't sleep that much." But you think about your best days of your life happened when you slept adequately. It changes your hunger hormones, it changes your hormones in general, you know, for women especially as we get older, um, this is important. It changes your mood. It changes your ability to uh, uh, make decisions.

Mel Robbins 1:11:51 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:11:52 And your interactions with other people. So why would you want to skimp on that? Why would you say that you'll be like everybody else, you know, sleep when you're dead.

Mel Robbins 1:12:03 (laughs)

Dr. Amy Shah 1:12:03 When you look at the data, the data says opposite. It says if you don't sleep, you'll be dead much earlier.

Mel Robbins 1:12:09 That's true.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:12:10 If you don't sleep, you will be more depressed, more anxious, have more, uh, hunger and craving signals. You are gonna be a version of yourself that y- is, is a shell of what you want to be.

Mel Robbins 1:12:27 So one final thing that I think would be extremely helpful to people. Let's assume that we went to bed early and we wake up and we get a good night sleep. Can you walk us through what you would recommend the eating routine or what is on our plate and when are we actually eating?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:12:47 Okay. For ha-

Mel Robbins 1:12:50 For like, you know, complete hormone balance.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:12:52 Yes. Um, okay. So as you know, it's, everybody is different.

Mel Robbins 1:12:56 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:12:56 And their life circumstances are different. Every time I do this, uh, you know, people say, "Oh, but I work night shift or-"

Mel Robbins 1:13:02 Right.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:13:02 "... I have little kids." I get it. Like life is, I had many years where I didn't get enough sleep.... where I didn't get enough sunlight, where I couldn't make the best decisions because I was just so pulled in, um, you know, all the different directions.

Mel Robbins 1:13:17 Uh-huh.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:13:18 So I get it. But we didn't even talk about circadian rhythms, but Mel, sunlight and darkness run our bodies. We have internal clocks in every one of our cells, so routines are excessively important-

Mel Robbins 1:13:35 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:13:35 ... in terms of our mood and our, um, our body, our nutrition. So when you wake up in the morning, you want to get sunlight. I have a rule that I learned, um, from someone online. Basically, I did this for a few days and I felt the best I've ever felt, and I'll tell you what it is. When you wake up, instead of scrolling your phone-

Mel Robbins 1:13:59 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:13:59 ... checking your messages and your emails, go get sunlight first. Sky before screens.

Mel Robbins 1:14:08 Ooh, I love that.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:09 So sky before screens is how you should start your day. Your body is wired to see sunlight in the morning. Even if it's a cloudy day, it just has to be bright light.

Mel Robbins 1:14:18 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:19 Uh, you can just walk out outside. For me, it's my backdoor, just walk out for a few minutes. It could be two to 10 minutes, you could do... Um, for me, I'm usually just in my pajamas, so I'm coming back in and getting ready for the day.

Mel Robbins 1:14:31 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:32 So you don't wanna have food or caffeine

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:38 in the first 45 minutes of your day.

Mel Robbins 1:14:40 Why?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:41 I'll tell you why. When you wake up, you feel groggy, right?

Mel Robbins 1:14:45 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:45 That grogginess is partially mostly from adenosine in your brain.

Mel Robbins 1:14:50 Adenosine.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:51 Adenosine.

Mel Robbins 1:14:52 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:52 And it clears out, as you know. Within 30, 40 minutes-

Mel Robbins 1:14:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:14:56 ... it clears out. Then you have your coffee, then you eat your food. And the reason why is coffee, the way it works, it- it blocks our adenosine receptor. So that means that it doesn't help get rid of adenosine, it just blocks it from, from actually binding.

Mel Robbins 1:15:16 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:17 So if you don't let adenosine clear out and you just drink your coffee, when the coffee wears off in a couple of hours, that adenosine's still there and it just binds-

Mel Robbins 1:15:27 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:27 ... those receptors and you feel excessively tired.

Mel Robbins 1:15:31 And that's why you think you need another cup of coffee.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:34 And then you're fully dependent, like the people that wake up and they need the coffee right then, and then they need it again at like 10 o'clock, and then they need it again at one o'clock, it's because you're not letting that adenosine-

Mel Robbins 1:15:45 Whoa.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:46 ... go.

Mel Robbins 1:15:47 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:47 You need to let that clear out.

Mel Robbins 1:15:49 I'm guilty of this.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:50 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:15:50 So I'm gonna try this tomorrow. I am going to absolutely have my coffee and then... Oh no, I'm not.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:15:56 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:15:57 I'm gonna wake up. I'm gonna wait 45 minutes-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:00 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:16:00 ... then I'm gonna have my coffee. I'm gonna see if I have a craving for a second cup.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:03 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:16:04 That is fascinating. Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:05 So you wanna let it, uh, clear out naturally, 'cause it's not gonna clear out naturally if you start the caffeine cycle right away.

Mel Robbins 1:16:11 Got it.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:11 Okay?

Mel Robbins 1:16:11 So clear it out for 45 minutes, get our sun in. What's next?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:14 Um, eat.

Mel Robbins 1:16:15 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:16 So-

Mel Robbins 1:16:16 No intermittent fasting?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:17 So everybody... I love intermittent fasting.

Mel Robbins 1:16:20 Then why are we eating?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:21 Because I do it the opposite way.

Mel Robbins 1:16:24 Talk to me.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:25 There's very good evidence that for thousands of years, we ate in one scheduled way-

Mel Robbins 1:16:33 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:33 ... which is daylight hours.

Mel Robbins 1:16:36 Oh.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:37 There was no microwaves, Uber Eats, you know. There was b- they had a fire and you'd maybe eat an hour or two after sundown, that's it, right?

Mel Robbins 1:16:46 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:16:46 You are not snacking at midnight. There is nothing, there was nowhere to store the food thousands of years ago. Our internal clocks are set so that when melatonin hits two to three hours before bed, your organs shut down.

Mel Robbins 1:17:03 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:17:05 You cannot process sugar as well as you did. You cannot take it into your muscles. You are not, uh, processing... You're not releasing digestive enzymes. So basically, when you're eating late at night, you're waking your body up in the middle of the night and asking it to do a math problem. Your body is gonna be like, "I don't wanna do this. I'm gonna make mistakes."

Mel Robbins 1:17:27 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:17:28 You wake up and you're tired and you're pissed that someone woke you up in the middle of the night. That's what happens when you eat late at night.

Mel Robbins 1:17:34 Holy smokes. You put your body in conflict with itself.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:17:39 Yeah. And so intermittent fasting, everyone's doing it the wrong way. They're eating way late into the night and then they don't eat all day when the sun is out, right? Like that's the time that your wa-... Your body's ready for food, right? So ideally, you know, you wait an hour, 'cause it's, uh, nobody needs to be eating every minute of every day.

Mel Robbins 1:17:58 Yeah.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:17:58 Uh, Americans just, we just eat 14 to 16 hours a day. It's just too much, right? So you wake

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:04 up, maybe you get some movement in, you get your sunlight, you eat about an hour or two even after you wake up.

Mel Robbins 1:18:10 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:10 You don't need to push it to 2:00, 3:00, 4:00. Like, people are doing this thing. There's good evidence that skipping meals is actually bad for you and that people who do it habitually actually have worse health outcomes. Okay?

Mel Robbins 1:18:24 Got it.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:24 So eat your breakfast. You wanna have a high dopamine breakfast.

Mel Robbins 1:18:27 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:28 Uh, let's have, you know, cottage cheese, eggs, tofu scramble, veggies, nuts, berries. Okay?

Mel Robbins 1:18:33 Great. When do I eat next?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:35 Then you eat.

Mel Robbins 1:18:35 'Cause I'm already hungry.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:36 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:18:36 Well, no. Am I hungry right now?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:39 Yeah. (laughs) Are you hungry?

Mel Robbins 1:18:40 Would I eat vegetables? I would eat vegetables right now.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:42 There you go. Then you're hungry.

Mel Robbins 1:18:42 So that must mean I'm hungry. But I gotta have a glass of water first and then I'm gonna ask myself that again.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:47 All right. Yes. So you can-

Mel Robbins 1:18:47 See, I'm learning.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:49 Then you tune in with the inner Mel, you know, the, the-

Mel Robbins 1:18:51 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:51 ... brain gut Mel.

Mel Robbins 1:18:52 Yep. Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:18:53 So then you can eat when you're hungry again. You can use your inner cues. It could be 12, could be 1, whenever your inner cues are.

Mel Robbins 1:19:01 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:01 You'll notice your ghrelin is set to, uh, to, on a timer. Every day you'll get hungry at the same time.

Mel Robbins 1:19:06 So hello, ghrelin.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:19:07 It just oped on... It just, it just, I think, dumped on me.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:19:10 So what do you eat for lunch?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:11 So basically, lunch is a chance for you to get...... f- the more- the healthier you eat earlier in the day, the better your chance of, um, sticking to it.

Mel Robbins 1:19:24 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:24 So, they always say exercise and eating healthier foods, breakfast and lunch, is your best chance.

Mel Robbins 1:19:28 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:28 So, for me, I automated, and I had already talked to you when we had talked before, that I try to eat the same things every day.

Mel Robbins 1:19:35 So, what do you eat for lunch?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:19:35 So, I eat a salad for lunch. I usually put a protein source on it. It could be different beans, nuts, it could- tofu, you could do eggs, you could do salmon, whatever you want. Protein and veggies. A salad with, um, protein on it. And the- uh, and I always have a fermented probiotic food with my lunch, because that's the best time for you to get in at least one to two servings of the kimchi, of the sauerkraut. It could be, um, kombucha for a, you know, a drink. Um, apple cider vinegar in your dressing.

Mel Robbins 1:20:07 Yep.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:20:07 So, that's when you have the best chance. Really simple.

Mel Robbins 1:20:11 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:20:11 It can be very simple. And then your dinner is when you wanna eat, if you are someone-

Mel Robbins 1:20:17 Serotonin, baby.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:20:17 Yes. You're learning.

Mel Robbins 1:20:20 I'm paying attention.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:20:21 So, um, if- I know it's not sexy to say eat carbs, but carbs actually can be very healthy for you, especially in vegetable form. Sweet potato, quinoa, whatever it is. Um, you can eat that later in the day if you want to have that big boost of serotonin.

Mel Robbins 1:20:37 And what about snacks? If I'm like legit hungry, but I'm not really craving anything-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:20:41 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:20:41 ... but I'm legit hungry midday, what's your go-to snack?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:20:45 So, remember that protein has this effect on your body, that it tells your hunger to- hunger hormones to stop. So, if you want more leptin, eat more protein. So, your snack can be yogurt. Your snack can be a protein shake. Your snack can be, um, a- a n- piece of cheese. It can be- you know, something with protein, because that will keep your dopamine levels up-

Mel Robbins 1:21:12 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:21:12 ... and it will keep your hunger hormones s- hormone stable. So, protein snack. I think women, especially, were eating just too little protein. There is a theory-

Mel Robbins 1:21:23 Yes.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:21:23 ... that the reason we get fat from eating ultra-processed food is because it's so low in protein that your brain never gets the signal that you're full. Your protein threshold is never met.

Mel Robbins 1:21:38 Wow. One final thing I wanna ask you, 'cause we didn't really cover it. Gluten. Everybody I know is gluten-free.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:21:44 Yeah. It's not the gluten. There's very few people who are actually allergic to gluten. It is very common to have GI issues with processed gluten, so when you eat a lot of bread, pizza, carbs, but that's not the gluten itself. It's the fact that you're eating processed-

Mel Robbins 1:22:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:22:05 ... food. So, gluten gets mislabeled all the time. What I say to people is, go gluten-free for a few weeks, three f- to four weeks.

Mel Robbins 1:22:14 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:22:15 See how you feel. When you add the gluten back, don't add back the bread, the cookies, the cakes, and the processed gluten. Add back a small wheat bulgur, like in a, in a salad.

Mel Robbins 1:22:30 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:22:30 Um, add back, um, a healthy sourdough bread.

Mel Robbins 1:22:35 Okay.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:22:35 Add back, you know, wheat in small, unprocessed amounts, and then see how you feel. And what I've realized is that people villainize gluten all the time, and in America, gluten-free, um, has become such a tagline that those foods are, uh, more unhealthy.

Mel Robbins 1:22:56 Oh, because of all the processing. Look at you, Doctor Amy.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:23:01 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:23:01 Is there anything else on this topic that we did not get?

Dr. Amy Shah 1:23:05 I think we covered so much. I, I think, um, like you said, and I have taken this to heart, is that there is no pill that's gonna save you. There is no person that's gonna save you. You, when you learn about all this, when you actually listen to your own self, you're th- gonna be the one who saves yourself.

Mel Robbins 1:23:26 Well, Doctor Amy Shaw-

Dr. Amy Shah 1:23:28 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:23:29 ... let me just say, thank you, because without this information, we can't save ourselves. And you've explained the internal, extremely elegant, but complicated systems inside of us so that it makes sense, so that we understand why these choices, these substitutions, why it actually matters. Like, that's my huge takeaway. I have never actually understood any of this at the level that you just explained, and that's an enormous gift, so thank you, thank you, thank you.

Dr. Amy Shah 1:24:05 I appreciate you. You give so much amazing information to everyone that it's just a gift to be here and to speak to you.

Mel Robbins 1:24:13 Well, the feeling's mutual. Wasn't she great? Well, you know who else is great? You are. So, before we go, I just wanna remind you that I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to take back your health, to make a million happy psychobiotics yourself. Now, go make a bowl of raw vegetables. Put down the potato chips. See? I'm learning. I hope you're learning too. Oh, and one more thing, and no, this is not a blooper. (laughs) This is the legal language. You know, what the lawyers write and what I need to read to you. This podcast is presented solely for educational and entertainment purposes. I'm just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is not intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I'll see you in the next episode. (instrumental music) Hey, it's Mel. Thank you so much for being here. If you enjoyed that video, by God, please subscribe 'cause I don't want you to miss a thing. Thank you so much for being here. We've got so much amazing stuff coming. Thank you so much for sending this stuff to your friends and your family. I love you. We create these videos for you, so make sure you subscribe. Mwah.