The Mel Robbins PodcastHarvard Psychologist Shares 6 Words That Will Change Your Family
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,027 words- 0:00 – 3:30
Introduction
- MRMel Robbins
It sounds like what we're gonna learn from you today is an entirely different way to look at-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... and approach-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... a situation where someone's pissing you off.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs) You got it. What we've learned over the years is there's only really one reliable predictor of helping somebody to change their behavior.
- MRMel Robbins
What is it?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
People do well if they can.
- MRMel Robbins
It's true.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Everybody wants to do well. There's just things getting in the way sometimes. If you're trying to motivate somebody when motivation isn't the issue, not only is it not gonna be effective, but it may- might make matters much worse. So when you shift your focus and you say, "People do well if they can," what you're saying is, "If that person could do well, they would do well, and if they're not, something else is getting in their way." And I personally don't buy that it's just a lack of motivation.
- MRMel Robbins
This is the simplest explanation, and the most empowering and encouraging explanation I have ever heard. Why does this get you so emotional?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Kids being misunderstood and mistreated, and it doesn't have to be that way.
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's your friend, Mel. I am so fired up that you pressed play and that you chose to listen or watch this episode today. This is going to be extraordinary. And it's always an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together, but today in particular, I am so excited that we get to spend time with the extraordinary Dr. Stuart Ablon. I'm gonna tell you about him in just a second, but I wanna also take a moment and welcome you if you're a brand new listener. And I suspect there's gonna be a lot of brand new listeners around the world that come in through this particular episode, because I know you're gonna share this. That's how incredible what you're about to learn is going to be. And so welcome. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. You have picked a winner to jump into the Mel Robbins Podcast. And you know what it tells me? It tells me that you're the type of person who values your time, and that you're also interested in learning about ways that you can improve your life and your relationships. And today, you're gonna leave a changed person. I know I am. I have been following the work of the extraordinary Dr. Stuart Ablon for years, and I am so thrilled that we finally have him here today so that you and I can learn from him. We can grow, we can become better people, and we can use his research-backed approach to help us deal with the challenging people in our life. Now, Dr. Stuart Ablon is an award-winning psychologist. He has over 30 years of experience and he is an expert on challenging behavior. He's also the founder and director of Think Kids, which is a program in the Department of Psychiatry at Mass General Hospital. He's a professor at Harvard Medical School, and he started all of his work and research with children, but has found that everything that he's learned about dealing with somebody who's exhibiting challenging behavior, you know, they're frustrating you or you're deeply worried about them, that everything that you're about to learn applies to any relationship. It applies to adults, it applies to coworkers, it applies to your marriage. You're gonna love this. And I love the title of his new bestselling book, Changeable: The Surprising Science Behind Helping Anyone Change, and that's what the conversation is all about today. How you can use science to help anyone in your life, no matter how challenging or scary the situation might be. Yes, you can help them change. Dr. Ablon, it is such an honor to meet you. Welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
It is a absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.
- 3:30 – 6:47
If someone’s behavior is driving you crazy, this simple shift will provide patience
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, where I wanna start is could you just tell the person listening what they could experience in their life that would be different if they really take to heart everything that you're about to share with us and teach us today?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Well, I think, in essence, people could find that conflict in their life could decrease substantially. People could find that they're able to repair relationships with people they care about, love, work with, raise, and people could build skills, uh, skills in areas like flexibility, and frustration tolerance, and problem-solving, and empathy. So those are some of the things.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm in.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Um, this may seem like a hard question, but in the 30 years of clinical psychology experience and being the founder of the Think Kids program at Mass General Hospital, what are some of the biggest takeaways that you have from your career truly working with parents and kids specifically?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
I would say a couple of them. One is that still today, despite all the things that we've learned, which we'll talk about I'm sure, challenging behavior or concerning behavior is still tragically misunderstood and mistreated. And if we can just shift our thinking to better understand what causes it, there's so much opportunity to be helpful in a variety of different ways. So I think that's one of the things.
- MRMel Robbins
And when you say challenging behavior-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... what do you put in that bucket?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Uh, you know, it depends on, uh, the age of the person you're talking about-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... and the setting, but we're talking about everything from tantrums to, uh, with younger children, to the kinda concerning behavior with teens that, uh, you know, keeps adults up at night, to the challenges that people have with their spouse's behavior, their in-laws' behavior, their colleagues' behavior.
- MRMel Robbins
And what would you tell the person who's listening right now who's either overwhelmed, or burnt out, or just tired of dealing with a person or a particular issue in their life and they're just like, "Is this ever gonna end? Is this ever gonna get better?"
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah. Well, uh, the good news is we've seen it get better in the toughest of places. And, uh, you know, this is sort of a- a battle-tested approach that started with the most challenging behavior, again, in the most- the toughest of settings. I mean, we're talking about, uh, with kids with severe trauma histories in residential treatment facilities, we're talking about correctional facilities and things like that before we ever started using it in homes and other places. Uh, so, uh, you know, it- it's proven, but that's not to really diminish the fact that wherever you're experiencing concerning behavior from folks, it- you know, it's incredibly frustrating. Like it- it's really hard to deal with and it pisses us off.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And it- you know, (laughs) so, uh, it's really hard to sort of keep our calm and be able to respond in ways that are effective, but I think we've got some ways to sort of reframe understanding the challenging behavior that can position people in a totally different place.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, that's cool. So it sounds like what we're gonna learn from you today is an entirely different way to look at-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... and approach-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... a situation where someone's pissing you off.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs)
- 6:47 – 15:14
The most powerful way to help anyone change their behavior
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
You got it. And, and, you know, your question before of sort of, uh, what have I learned over-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... 30 years, the other thing I've learned is that, uh, and this is probably one of the most, I think, important findings in social science research about helping people-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And we're talking about any kind of person.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Who, you know, kid, adult, uh, if- if you're trying to help somebody with anything related to their behavior, what we've learned over the years is there's only really one reliable predictor of helping somebody to change their behavior, and the good news is it's also the most powerful one.
- MRMel Robbins
What is it?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
It- it's the degree of helping relationship between helper and helpee, the degree of helping relationship, and when I say helping relationship, what I mean by that is a collaboration born of empathy, of understanding, of non-judgmental acceptance. So it's sort of working together on, on hard things-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... but coming from that non-judgmental perspective, and that's what we find whether it's in therapy or in schools or all kinds of places. That's the biggest predictor of helping somebody to change their behavior.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what I immediately think about, and I'm sure we're gonna unpack this in great detail, is I think about situations in my life, whether it's dealing with our son, Oakley, when he was in the fourth grade and we were just figuring out that he had dyslexia and ADHD and he was super lonely and felt like an outsider and we were trying to help, but everything was a standoff and a fight.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Or when, another situation, my husband, uh, was going through a really bad bout of depression and I wanted to help, but I just couldn't find a way in.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And I can think about challenging people in my extended family where I'm like, "I'd like to help you be a better person 'cause you piss me off and annoy me."
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Where it almost feels like a deadlock in terms of the dynamic.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And it's as if they don't want help and you don't know what to do. And so are you saying it's possible for us to change our approach and that changes what happens?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Absolutely. And also, y- you know what? Um, I- I've got a, sort of a philosophy that all of our work flows from.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And it's a pretty simple one. When we apply it to kids, it goes like this. Kids do well if they can.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Not kids do well if they want to, but kids do well if they can. And what that means is if a kid could do well, they would do well. And the reality is, you know, in all the years I've done this, I've never met a kid who prefers doing poorly to doing well. And now substitute that word kid with adult-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... with spouse-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... with partner, with coworker-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- 15:14 – 21:40
This story will completely change how you think about helping others
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
worse feeling.
- MRMel Robbins
Now, I see you brought something.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
What i- what is that letter that you have there?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Well, so thi- this is a girl I worked with in the Boston Public Schools who, um, was having a really hard time both at home and at school-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... managing her behavior, and she both was a, sort of what I call an exploder and an imploder.
- MRMel Robbins
Which, g- what does that mean?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
So, exploder means, like, she would scream. She, uh, turned over her desk. Uh, she would, you know, throw things. Uh, she'd hit other people. An imploder means she would quietly put her head down and cry. She would sneak out of the room and ask to go to the bathroom and not come back. She would shut down.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Um, and to me, by the way, all these are, these are different flavors of saying, "I'm having a hard time handling something with the skills I have."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
W- why would a kid choose to do any (laughs) of those things if they could handle the situation better? You know, kids do well if they can. So I-
- MRMel Robbins
Why does this get you so emotional?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
C- 'cause just, uh, kids being misunderstood and mistreated, and it doesn't have to be that way. We know better, you know? We know better.
- MRMel Robbins
We have to do better.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
We have to do better, and, and I don't blame us because, like, this is how it works in history. We learn. We un- uh, conventional wisdom gets overturned, and we, we learn better, and that takes a while until we change our practices. And we're in that period now, which is why I'm thankful for you helping spread the word here because w- we can shift our thinking and do better here. We don't have to lose kids, and, and I'm, I just looked at this girl's letter and that, it, I- I've seen this a million times, and it still makes me emotional every time 'cause this girl was struggling so much-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... and they used a sort of classic sticker chart to try to motivate her to behave better-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... you know, like, get stuff if you behave well.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And it wasn't working great, and I asked her, you know, when I was meeting with her, I asked her, "Wh- what's happening with it?" She's not great at letting people know what's bothering her and things.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
But she would write for me.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
She could do it in written form, um, and she could draw things, and so I- I asked her, you know, how the thing was going, the sticker chart, and she wrote this for me. And it says, "My brain is idiotic. I make stupid mistakes. I mess everything up. I always make a mess and get hurt and ruin everything." And that's a kid we're trying to motivate to behave better? You gotta be kidding me. I mean, how we missed the mark. This kid, more motivated than anybody on the face of the Earth to behave well. Why? 'Cause she don't wanna feel this way.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
So, she already has all the internal motivation in the world, and the last thing we wanna do is send her the message, "We don't think you're trying hard enough."
- MRMel Robbins
And what is available to the person who's listening to you right now? And if you could speak directly to them, whether they are a parent who has a child, like, just spiraling from an eating disorder or spiraling with behavior issues at schools, and they're getting kicked out, and they're lost, or you have somebody in your life that's spiraling with addiction. What, what do you wanna say to that person directly about what's available to them in this conversation?
- 21:40 – 37:58
5 ways to communicate better in your relationships to avoid chaos
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
- MRMel Robbins
Could you... you were talking about skills.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you just list off-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
... some of the skills that people that we may be dealing with in our families or at work or in life are missing-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
... that create challenging behavior?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Absolutely. So, you know, I, I gave you some sort of, uh, big categories that they fall in, problem solving, flexibility, frustration tolerance, but I also told you there's 50 years of research that shows exactly where those skills are, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And in essence, what we found is in their, they're in five different areas.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And if we wanna use fancy language just for a moment-
- MRMel Robbins
Sure.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... they're what we call neurocognitive skills, which is a fancy way of saying thinking skills, in essence.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Okay? They're largely what, you know, happens in the prefrontal cortex of your brain-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Okay? Uh, so there's five areas. One, language and communication skills. Now, really easy to think about with a kid because, you know, like, most two-year-olds are very poorly behaved, right? We call it the terrible twos, not 'cause they're evil little beings, but because they lack a lot of skills, including they're not great at knowing what's bothering them, using words to tell somebody what's bothering them, engaging in a back and forth to solve a problem. Those are language and communication skills. Now, most four-year-olds are better than that, uh, than two-year-olds at that. Most eight-year-olds better than five-year-olds. Most 20-year-olds better than 10-year-olds at that. But notice my language, "most." So you may be, you know, working with a 15-year-old who's got six-year-old language skills.
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And, and l- let's be clear, this does not just apply to kids because you may be in a marriage with a 45-year-old who really struggles to identify what's bothering them, communicate it to others, engage in the back and forth to problem solve. So that's one category, language and communication skills.
- MRMel Robbins
And you know what else I just kinda got as I'm listening to you? I, I need to manage my face because I think I, I look like I'm in a state of shock the entire time I'm listening to you.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
So I'm like, "Where were you 30 years ago?"
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Um, I, uh, you're here now-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... and we're all gonna learn from you now. Um, is that as you were explaining the two-year-old, then if you don't have the language and communication skills, it would be completely age-appropriate and normal for you to exhibit challenging behavior-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you don't have the language and communication skills-
- 37:58 – 47:14
How to motivate people in your life to take positive action
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
else is coming from? And all these skills can be interrelated too. So these five we talked about, they're not mutually exclusive. It's not-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... I have a hard time with this and nothing else 'cause you can imagine, you know, if, if, uh, you're a very concrete literal thinker, it might be hard for you to step into somebody else's shoes and empathize.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Or if you tend to, uh, think in a very black and white way, your emotions may spiral pretty quickly if you start to catastrophize, as you said a moment ago.
- MRMel Robbins
Right. And I can also think of things like, especially in the social behavior, like if you're somebody that just doesn't have the skill of the, the cues-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... you're the awkward kid or the awkward person at work that just stands a little too close to everybody-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... or-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... a clo- like close talker or you follow somebody too closely into the bathroom, and you just don't know-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... that that then becomes its own thing that makes you start to wonder, "Why don't I have friends? And why do I feel like I don't belong here?"
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And so how does missing those skills create this dynamic that is challenging for us with other people?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Y- Well, the way it happens is because you struggle with these skills, you have a hard time meeting people's expectations. You end up doing things that, uh, people don't like, that they don't want you to do, and not doing things people want you to do. People get frustrated with you.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And then people default to assuming this is a lack of will-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... and they try to motivate you through incentives, rewards, consequences, to try to behave better, and that doesn't work because you're already trying hard. You're trying harder than anybody else to behave well. I mean, this is one of the, the, the secrets. People think sometimes people who struggle with their behavior aren't trying hard to behave well. No. You know who's not trying hard to behave well? Well-behaved people 'cause it comes naturally. The people who are really working hard are the folks who, for whom it doesn't come naturally. And then I, I gotta say what gets really dangerous is not only are rewards and consequences, incentives, things like that not effective, but they can cause real harm. And if I can talk about two ways they cause harm.
- MRMel Robbins
Please because I think where, where we're going now is, especially if you think about it from a parenting context-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... that when you get frustrated, you then discipline-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
You got it.
- MRMel Robbins
... and you punish, and you either spank or scream or yell or-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
... timeouts or whatever it may be.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And what is the impact if-
- 47:14 – 56:51
3 powerful strategies to handle any challenging behavior
- MRMel Robbins
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And then to make it worse, the outside world typically, uh, reacts in punitive ways, which what does that do? It adds stress. So it further gets in the way of skill development, it only escalates the behavior, and then when we have escalating behavior, we tend to up the ante on the discipline. So it becomes this cycle of sort of chronic stress and punitive discipline that just keeps making matters worse and worse and worse. And the good news is we don't have to respond to that behavior punitively. We can respond in a different way, a way that I call r- with relational discipline, discipline that doesn't leverage power and control, but leverages relationship. 'Cause remember, the biggest predictor of helping somebody change, helping somebody build skills is the degree of helping relationship. So we can respond with relational discipline.
- MRMel Robbins
So Dr. Abellen, I'm totally bought in.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs) All right.
- MRMel Robbins
Give me the step by step.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
All right. So-
- MRMel Robbins
Let's go. What do we do?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Uh, you know, here's a simple way to think about things.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And I always say to people, "Don't confuse simple with easy," okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
But simple as this. Pick any problem that you have with anybody, literally anybody in your life, okay? In other words, anything they're doing you don't want them to do or not doing you want them to do, anything.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And at the end of the day, you really only have three options for how to handle those. And, uh, just to be clear, we didn't create these in collaborative problem-solving, we just put labels on them, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
We call them your three plans, okay? Which is, in other words, saying, your options for how to handle a problem. You need a plan, what's your plan? Okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
There's only three.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
We call them plan A, (laughs) plan B, and plan C.
- MRMel Robbins
So give me an example. So th-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So you've got somebody in your life-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... that has a problem.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And it could be anything-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... from somebody who has a mental health issue and is not taking their meds or using their tools.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Absolutely.
- 56:51 – 58:43
How to positively transform any relationship in your life
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
problems. And that's what I think we should go to next-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... which is, okay, what do those ingredients look like?
- MRMel Robbins
So how do we do that?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Okay. Three ingredients to this process.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Okay? The first ingredient, the hardest, the most important, we call it the empathy ingredient, okay? And the reason it's so hard is, I think, most of us misunderstand what the word empathy means.
- MRMel Robbins
What does it mean?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
It means understanding. And we th- think that empathy means sort of expressing, you know, that we care by saying something like, you know, "I can tell you're really struggling." People think that's empathy. It's actually not really empathy. Empathy is really trying to understand somebody else's perspective, point of view, concern, what's hard for them. So the first ingredient, the empathy ingredient, is not coming in with your perspective, your point of view, your solutions, which is the mistake we make all the time. Instead, it's starting with, "Let me understand where you're coming from. So there's a situation I wanna talk to you about, let me understand where you're coming from." And empathy is the most powerful human regulator we have. You wanna calm someone, make them accessible, it's all about empathy. It is the most powerful way, and I ho- I'm sure, Mel, you've experienced this, I've experienced this, if somebody really empathizes with you, really tries to understand where you're coming from, it is incredibly calming. And it's calming upon your whole system. I mean, this is why, y- you know, you can... Your words can literally change the person across the table next to you, thousands of miles away. They, it can change their blood pressure, their skin conductance, their heart rate. Empathy regulates, and when people are regulated, they're much more able to express what's going
- 58:43 – 1:05:50
How to practice true empathy with the people that you love
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
on for them.
- MRMel Robbins
I don't know who said this, but when I heard this, I was like, "Oh, I think I understand what empathy, especially as a parent, but also truly in any relationship means." They said, "It's not your child's job to help you understand them."
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
"It's your job-"
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
"Your job..."
- MRMel Robbins
"... to figure out who they are."
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
You got it. Now I think though that is really hard to put into practice, and so I actually (laughs) spent, this is gonna sound ridiculous, but I-
- MRMel Robbins
No, it doesn't. But wait for it.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs) I spent like five years-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... intensively studying the first ingredient of our problem-solving process. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Well, thank God, because we all need to know how to do this 'cause I don't think any of us really, I think we do it performatively-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... where we want to try to understand, but we don't know how to step into someone else's shoes-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes. You got it.
- MRMel Robbins
... and, and really attempt to understand what it's like being them.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
You got it. And so I, I spent these years, we, we have all these recordings of people doing this, um, from, uh, different places and people we work with, and I basically pored over them, my own work, and basically said, "When this first ingredient, empathy, goes well, what are people doing? And when it goes off the rails, what are people doing?" And I'm pleased to say, like the result, it, it's not rocket science. When we do a good job of empathizing with another human, we're doing four things and four things only.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And any time we do anything other than those four, (laughs) it tends to go off the rails. So here are the four. I promise they're not rocket science, okay? Two of them are information-gathering tools. Asking questions, you know, clarifying questions, like any good detective would do-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... trying to understand what's going on. Okay? 'Cause that's your job. You're a detective trying to understand the other person's point of view. Ask questions, number one. Okay? If they're having a hard time filling you in, take some guesses, educated guesses. Do it tentatively 'cause you're not the expert on them and their experience, but educated guesses. Questions and guesses, those are the information-gathering tools. The other tools are what I call the regulating tools. They are what calm someone down if they're getting upset, shutting down, and those two tools are reflective listening and reassurance. Reflective listening simply looks like when I ask you questions or take a guess, anything you communicate back to me, I let you know that I heard you. Okay? And I try to tell people, especially with adolescents, but with anybody, you know, avoid the sort of rote, just like saying exactly back to you exactly what you said, 'cause that's, th- that's cheesy, it upsets people, and it doesn't show that you really heard them.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Instead, in your own words, reflective listening is l- saying something like, "Okay, so let me see if I got this straight. What I hear you saying is," and then in my own words.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
And other people call this active listening, et cetera.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Crucial.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Fourth one, okay, 'cause we got questions and guesses-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- 1:05:50 – 1:14:09
3 ways to connect with someone in your life who is struggling
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
your concern.
- MRMel Robbins
Now let me ask a question about this, though-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... because you've just reassured them you're not doing anything, so should you do it in that-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Well-
- MRMel Robbins
... conversation or how do you set this up so it doesn't feel like a bait and switch?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Well, no, no, but notice what I said. You're not sharing your solution-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... to the problem. If you were, that would be what I call tricky plan A. You're sharing what you're worried about, why you're having this conversation in the first place, not your solution, and this is the heart of collaborative problem solving.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what I've just, I just had a huge breakthrough. This is one of the skills that I need because I think whenever I get worried or frustrated, I default immediately to problem-solving mode.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... that creates a tremendous number of problems in my life-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... because I'm either running people over-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... or I'm frustrated-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... because I see a solution that I think works, but now somebody feels like they're being minimized or micromanaged.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yep. Yep. I mean, l- look-
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... the reality is people want advice far less often than we think, and even when people seem open to advice, uh, they're typically not gonna follow the advice- (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... if they haven't been co-authors of the solution where their concern and perspective is accurately represented.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Yeah.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
So after you understand what's going on with them, you just share your perspective, your point of view, what you're worried about-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep, what you're worried about.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... not your solution. So if you had a solution in mind, you said, "I think they need to do this," right? Like if you said, "They have to go see a psychiatrist and get medicine."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- 1:14:09 – 1:20:38
The truth behind why young adults are struggling now more than ever
- MRMel Robbins
I'm, I'm so excited to try this. I am curious what you're seeing in your work when it comes to young adults because-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... it seems, at least, maybe it's just what my friends and I are talking about, but it seems like there's-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
It's everywhere.
- MRMel Robbins
... a tremendous amount of challenges with, with parenting kids-
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... in their late teens and into their 20s.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yes. You know, it's really interesting, I've noticed, I've typically worked with children, adolescents, occasional young adult. I work with more young adults now than I ever have. And there's a reason for that, because in essence, young adults aren't looking like what young adults used to look like. And what I mean by that is, thanks to the pandemic, there's a gap between where we expect people to be at certain ages and skill level. Kids' skills did not develop at the same rate, despite heroic efforts from teachers, from parents.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Which is why, like, fifth graders now, when I work with schools, look a lot more like third graders. Twelfth graders look a lot more like tenth graders. And yes, 22-year-olds look a lot more like 19, 20-year-olds, things like that. So things that were already challenging are more challenging.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Um, adulting is harder than it used to be because a lot of the kids don't have the same skills.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you think about this in terms of the challenging dynamics that you're seeing?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Yeah. Well, so basically, and I have a lot of families that are very frustrated because they're like, "My kid is not launching here."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
"And I'm supporting them and this is unsustainable."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
Now, where do parents typically go with that? Um, (laughs) I'm working with a few right now, where they go with that is, "So here's the plan."
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
"Here's what we are willing to do to support you."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Have you been in my house?
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
(laughs) Um, "By X date, you must have at least a part-time job and contributing this amount. By X date, you will have secured an apartment and have a full-time job to..." And, you know, at best what you get is, "Okay, yeah. Uh, uh-huh. Yeah, yeah, that, that, that sounds good. Yep. I, I'm good." Which, you know what I call that? I call that dissociative compliance, which means the kid is basically checked out, saying exactly what they think you wanna hear-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... so that they can get this over with-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
... 'cause their concerns aren't on the table.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
So it's the same (laughs) three-step process, unless you wanna do plan A or plan C, it needs to look like, 'cause that was plan A, what I just said before.
- MRMel Robbins
Which is, you're doing this, yes.
- SADr. Stuart Ablon
It, it needs to look like, um, "So let's talk about how things are going, what you think, uh, about how things are going, your perspective, your point of view, what you're looking for, your goals. I'll share some of my concerns and let's see if we can figure out a plan together, at least in the short term, that's gonna work for the both of us."
Episode duration: 1:26:56
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