The Mel Robbins PodcastHow One “Golden Moment” Can Transform Your Entire Life
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
60 min read · 12,335 words- 0:00 – 3:54
Meet the Guest
- MRMel Robbins
Today, on The Mel Robbins Podcast, legendary author John Grisham. 500 million books sold, nine feature films, decades of global success, but John Grisham's story began with rejection
- JGJohn Grisham
20 submissions go to New York. They came right back, [laughs] rejection, rejection, rejection.
- MRMel Robbins
He's sharing stories from his remarkable career.
- JGJohn Grisham
You gotta show up every day. Every job you ever have is material for the rest of your life. You learn lessons from all of them
- MRMel Robbins
And how one golden moment can transform your entire life.
- JGJohn Grisham
Stop talking about it. Don't tell folks what you're gonna do. Sit down and write a page every day.
- MRMel Robbins
Please help me welcome the one, the only, the legendary John Grisham to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- JGJohn Grisham
Happy to be here, Mel. Good seeing you.
- MRMel Robbins
I am thrilled to meet you in person.
- JGJohn Grisham
So I'm thrilled to meet you in person.
- MRMel Robbins
And the reason why I'm so thrilled is because 35 years ago, it was 1991, and I was here in Boston. I was in my first year of law school at Boston College Law School. I was absolutely miserable. I had gone to law school because a bunch of my friends, you know, were starting to go off to different schools, and I had a part-time job as a paralegal, which I hated. [laughs] But for some reason, I applied to law school 'cause I didn't know what else to do. I get there, and I realize I have made a huge mistake. I hated every aspect of it. I cried all the time. I drank a lot. And somebody told me that there was this book that had come out, and I picked up a copy because I hated doing the academic work. It was The Firm. It was your book. I bet I stayed up two nights in a row reading this thing. And the reason why it changed my life is because when I found out that you were a lawyer, I couldn't believe that you were both a lawyer and that you could write such an extraordinary fiction story. And it gave me this epiphany. I thought, "Oh, wait a minute. I don't have to practice law. I could do something else." And that was the beginning of me making a huge pivot. I stayed in law school. I actually did become a public defender in New York City for a couple of years, and then I ultimately left the law a couple years later. But I've always thought about that moment, that you don't have to stay who you are and what you are for the rest of your life, that at any moment you can decide that you wanna do something different. And I, I will tell you right now, I would not be doing what I do today if it weren't for you. So thank you.
- JGJohn Grisham
That's, uh, that's very touching. And, um, I, um, I've heard similar stories over the years and still find them hard to believe because when I started writing The Firm almost 40 years ago, uh, I had no idea what I was doing. Uh, I had the story. I knew I could write. Uh, I had no idea what was coming. I had no idea. We were so young and, and still a lawyer and still having fun and having babies, [laughs] and life was good. And, uh, it was a little serious part-time hobby, writing was. I'd finished the first book in '87, trying to get it published, and my wife had always loved the story of The Firm. I talked about it for years, not as a writer. It's based on something that really happened in law school.
- 3:54 – 6:51
Why John Grisham Wrote The Firm
- MRMel Robbins
For the person who's listening, John, who hasn't read The Firm, and, you know, I'm just gonna warn you, don't buy this book if you want to sleep tonight because if you pick this book up, there is no way you are gonna go to bed because you will just keep turning the page and turning the page and turning the page. But put them at the scene of kinda what the book is about and what inspired it.
- JGJohn Grisham
Goes back to, uh, law school. When I was in law school at Ole Miss, uh, in the early '80s, um, I was not heavily recruited by law firms. [laughs] Uh, I knew I was going back to my hometown. I was gonna marry my sweetheart from my hometown, and I did, 45 years ago, and, uh, I knew I was gonna open up my own little shop and practice law. I didn't like any of the law firms in town. I didn't really wanna go to work for them. And, uh, so I didn't interview. I didn't really care. Uh, uh, also, I was not a top student, [laughs] so I didn't-- there was no great demand for my, my interviews. A close friend was a top student, and he, uh, would go off on the weekends during our senior year in law school, and he would go to visit a regional law firm in Houston or Kansas City or Memphis or New Orleans, all, you know, all in the South, Memphis. And, um, he'd come back, and we sort of vicariously lived through him. What was the firm like?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
What, what are they offering? How much money? What are the perks? What's the practice? And he would tell us, uh, about these law firms. And he came back one weekend. We were all sitting around, probably drinking beer in our favorite bar, and he said, "This..." He said, "I visited a weird law firm last weekend." Uh, he said, "I got the impression that once you join that firm, you never really left, like it was owned by the mafia or something," a tax firm. And I-- that stuck. That was 1980. Uh, I wasn't thinking about being a writer. I was trying to finish law school. But the story was always there, and I didn't... Like a lot of stories, they hang around. Most of them are based on something that really happened, still, today, after all these books. And, um, and so I, I, I had the story, and as I was writing A Time to Kill, my first novel, uh, which is a tough book to write, tough book to read, tough book to get through, uh, I wanted something, and, that would be more fun to write and read. And I'd always ... pitched the story to Renee, and she's a, she's a, a sounding board, and she, she's always said, "I love that story. I love that story. I love that story." And so that's how The Firm got started, and as soon as I finished A Time to Kill, writing A Time to Kill, in early 1987, uh, I went straight to The Firm. And we used to laugh. We thought The Firm was just sort of a, you know, a simple title that would never stick, and, uh, but funny to say that now, but, um, I started writing The Firm right after I wrote the first book, and, and, uh, it took two years to write it. And then when it came out in, 35 years ago-
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh
- JGJohn Grisham
... well, it changed the world. I mean, it, our, our world was upside down and has been ever since. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- 6:51 – 10:53
Where Do Writers Get Their Ideas?
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I wanna hover on one detail of that story, 'cause I think it's really an interesting thing to explore, and I'd love to hear your perspective on it. So it's 1980, and you have a friend in law school who comes back and just says one sentence after being at that firm, "It's kinda weird. Kinda feels like it might, you know, be the kinda law firm that you never leave."
- JGJohn Grisham
You never leave, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Do you think about that moment, and what's your opinion about ideas and about the things in life that are sort of planted in front of you, and whether or not you're even aware of them, or if you think there's some sort of divine ordering to it? You know what I mean? Because it feels like one of these things that could've been a blip that turned into nothing, and I, I tend to be the kinda person that thinks that there are these signs all around you if you're awake enough to see them, or little threads that you weave together throughout your life that make sense later.
- JGJohn Grisham
I'm not sure. I'm not sure I, I'm not sure I buy that, that there are things that are out there waiting for you to see. Uh, I have a real, uh, knack for a story, and I grew up with, uh, storytellers. Uh, my father, my grandfather, uh, uncles were, were, uh, big storytellers. These are farm people in rural Arkansas when I was a kid, and would sit on the front porch at night, uh, in the heat, and listen to the Cardinals game on the radio, and listen to stories, all these stories that probably were all fiction, but they sure were good. They, they'd pol- they'd been polished for years and worked on for years. And I just al- always enjoyed d- the, the wild stories or, or funny stories. And, and as a kid, uh, I was a, a avid reader. My mother did not really like television, even in 1960, and, uh, so we, we went to the library all the time and got books, and we read. She read to us, and I just grew up reading a lot and, and loving the idea of a good story. And I guess that's where the, uh, that's where the eye comes from, the talent to be able to spot something, uh, almost immediately and say... And I do this almost weekly. You hear a story and say, "That's, that's got potential." And when I hear these great stories, uh, I'll make a note, and the notebook is always full. Most of them don't work for various reasons. Most of them kinda go away with time. They're all brilliant initially.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
Uh, [laughs] but, but, but the brilliance kinda rubs off. Um, but the good ones stick. The good ones stick.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what's super cool about stories, when you think about the intersection of your work and the intersection of mine, and my work is really about empowering people to see bigger possibilities, and giving them a sense of hope and encouragement that they could do little things that could make their life or their relationships feel better, and that they could do better over time. The power of stories is that it allows you to escape your current life and actually imagine something else, which is what you did for me in 1991.
- JGJohn Grisham
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That I could escape the misery of, "I hate this law school. I've made a huge mistake. I've now got these loans, and I'm trapped here, and I hate these people, and what the hell am I gonna do?" And that story just opened up a different possibility, even though I wasn't thinking about being an associate that would go to a firm where people never leave, and then discover that the mafia actually is involved, and then have the FBI on my case as I'm running, you know, from them with my wife.
- JGJohn Grisham
You gotta, you gotta love fiction. You gotta love fiction. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my Go- well, I've never written fiction, but I love fiction because it, you, you step outside yourself.
- 10:53 – 19:59
Achieve Any Goal One Day at a Time
- MRMel Robbins
And so if someone who is listening right now feels just like I did, and I know you've probably felt a little bit this way in certain twists and turns of your life, where you are in a chapter of your life, and you feel trapped, and you don't know what to do next, what do you think they're gonna learn from the various stories you're gonna tell us and the wisdom that we're gonna talk about that you've learned through your life and your work?
- JGJohn Grisham
You gotta keep working. You can't, you can't, uh, be smothered with doubt, or depression, or fear, or whatever. You gotta keep, you gotta keep working. Uh, I learned a very valuable lesson when I was writing A Time to Kill. Uh, and this is back in the dark ages, where I had, I knew nothing about writing. Um, I started, it was all written in hand on legal pads, and, um, and I, I showed the first chapter to my wife one night, and she'd had no idea what I was doing.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
She knew I could write, because she saved all of our love letters. She still has them. But she always, you know, she knew I could write. She knew I could tell stories, but I had not, I had never thought about being a writer. I was 30 years old. And, uh, she saw the first chapter and said, "This is pretty good. I'd like to read some more." I said, "Okay, I'll go write some more. I don't have another chapter." I said, "Man, let me go write chapter two." And that went on for a while, but it was, um, back in those days, I, I did not know what I was doing. But, uh, the lesson, one of the first lessons I learned was that you have to do a little bit every day or it's not gonna get done. I would take a, I'd take a week off and, and I'd, I was losing sleep writing the book 'cause I was up at 5:00 in the morning. And-
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I lost sleep reading it, so we're even. [laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
[laughs] Yeah. Well, I, I d- I'm not losing sleep now, but [laughs] I did back then. But I realized, and I, I, I ma- I probably read this somewhere, um, write a page a day. I tell, I said it a thousand times. Write a p- one page. If you're serious about writing anything, um, stop talking about it. Don't talk your book to death. Don't tell folks what you're gonna do. Sit down and write a page every day, at least a page. And it may, it may take you 15 minutes a day and an hour tomorrow. But find that time of the day, whether it's during lunch or whether it's late at night or early, w- whenever. Preferably the same time, same spot, same coffee j- like I still do after 50-something books. I don't care what, I don't care what your task is or what you're thinking about doing, uh, you gotta show up every day. You can't just talk about it, dream about it, think about it. Uh, you gotta, you gotta show up. I don't, again, I don't care what you're doing. I don't care what your dream is or what your goal is, uh, but you've got to do it, uh, every day. I learned that lesson the hard way. And once I started practicing that years ago, 40 years ago as a, you know, rookie lawyer trying to write a novel, I made myself get up at 5:00 every morning and have time to write. And it took three years for the first one, took two years for The Firm. Over a five-year period, I, I wrote them back to back, uh, at 5:00 in the morning.
- MRMel Robbins
I also was curious because you said, "I learned it the hard way." I think it would be very helpful for the person listening to hear how it wasn't working. [laughs] You know, 'cause I think you were about to tell us that, "I was trying to find a week off, I was trying to do it in these big sweeps of time, and then I realized I just have to do it a little a day." So how did you find the hard way? Like, what was the way you tried that was like, "Well, this definitely does not work"?
- JGJohn Grisham
The first time it happened, I had gone s- a couple of weeks and, and written nothing. And, uh, my wife, I can remember more than once said, uh, "Where's the latest chapter?"
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
And I said, "I haven't written it yet." She, and she said, "Why not?" And, uh, I said, "Okay, I'll get busy." Uh, 'cause she, she always loved the story. And, um, I would, you know, I'd, I'd, I'd learn, okay, to do this, you've got to s- you gotta, you gotta start somewhere. You've gotta blast off at some point. And so I would get started again, and I would make myself do it at least one page a day, every day, every day. And it got easier, and it got easier, it got easier. [laughs] The thing about it, I wrote too much. Uh, The Time to Kill, once it was typed, was almost 1,000 pages.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my gosh.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah. Yeah, and another lesson, okay? Um, I, I didn't know what I was doing. I w- I was not a writer. Um, 1,000 pages. I sold the book eventually after a long struggle. My first editor, who was a great editor, cut a third of it, and he was right. Uh, there was just too much junk in it. And I thought, "That was a year of my life." The book took three years to write. We just cut a third. That's a year of my life. I am never going to do this again. I'm not gonna waste time like this again. When I start writing from now on, I'm gonna know where I'm going. I'm gonna have it organized. I'm gonna have it outlined. And I learned this lesson from something John Irving said one time. He said he, um, does not write the first sentence until he writes the last one.
- MRMel Robbins
Ooh.
- JGJohn Grisham
I'm not that smart, but I don't wr- I don't write the f- first scene until I know the last scene. I know where I'm going. And if you always know where you're going, it's hard to get lost. And writers are notorious for having these brilliant ideas, and they'll, they can't wait to start writing. They'll write, write, write like crazy, write 50,000 words and suddenly stop, and they back themselves into a corner, and they can't get out of it. They toss it. They're famous for doing that, okay? I know writers, and they talk about doing it all the time. Now, [laughs] every writer says, "Oh, I don't believe in outlining. I just wait for inspiration to take over," and blah, blah, blah. Well, that's, okay, that's one way to do it. I can't do it that way. I've got to have it organized and outlined, and you've got to be able to pitch your idea. What it... You know, we're talking fiction here, okay? We're talking stories. Uh, you have to refine the pitch to about 30 seconds max. If you can't do it in 30 seconds, you're probably in trouble. I pitch ideas to my wife all the time, and I have to, I have to hog-tie her now and handcuff her, make her sit down and listen to me-
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
... 'cause she's, she's tired of it after all these years. But I'll say, "I have a great idea." She says, "I've heard that before." [laughs] "Hey, listen to me, okay? Here's the idea for a novel." And I get 30 seconds, and, uh, she's brutally honest. You know? She's, she usually shoots them down [laughs] and says, "No, it's not gonna work." Or occasionally she'll like one. She'll like one.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, you say you're talking about stories, but as I hear you tell us about some of the things that you've learned the hard way, the way that you approach the work that you do, I hear life. And let me tell you what I hear. One page a day is a four-word philosophy for how to create anything in your life. And I think a lot of us, whether you're trying to write the whole book in one day or one week, and then you get discouraged, we do that in every aspect of our lives, where we try to make the change so big and happen so fast that you miss the obvious, where one page a day is the way to create momentum. It is the way to make something a habit. It is a way to slowly start to write your way into a new chapter of your life. And so That goes way beyond writing. But the other thing that I thought was really interesting, 'cause you were talking about pitching, you said you have to get the thing down to 30 seconds. What you're talking about is clarity and alignment. You have to pick a direction. That's true about life, too. Like, I think so many people do not have what they want because they are not clear about what they want.
- JGJohn Grisham
No.
- MRMel Robbins
And if you can't explain what you want in the next chapter of your life in less than 30 seconds, you're gonna spin.
- JGJohn Grisham
You're not gonna get there.
- MRMel Robbins
No, you're not gonna get there. But then you said one other thing that I thought was so subtle, but I kind of chuckled because it really does metaphorically open up, I think, what everybody struggles with at some point. You had written chapter one of The Firm. You gave it to Renee to read. She loved it, and she said, "Where's chapter two?" And you said, "Uh, I haven't written it yet." She's like, "Well, I guess you better go write it." And to me, that is a beautiful story about the fact that if you ever feel stuck [laughs] because you are just in this chapter, even if it's ended, all you gotta do is go write the next one. It doesn't mean it's not coming. It doesn't mean it's never gonna get written. You just have to make the, "Oh, oh, okay, I haven't done that yet. I guess I better go do that." And it's kind of obvious stuff, but when you put it in the metaphor of a book, because I do believe that you can think a lot about the lifespan of your life like a book. And if you're still here, the story hasn't ended. There's more to write.
- 19:59 – 23:46
How to Find Your Dream Job
- MRMel Robbins
I see in your story, there's so much overlap with some of the things that we've experienced. Like, a lot of people don't know. A lot of people know that you've sold, what, 500 million books? Like, that's freaking cool, first of all. Congratulations.
- JGJohn Grisham
[laughs] Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
You're welcome.
- JGJohn Grisham
Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
Um, but that we both have had a million jobs, and I don't think a lot of people know, especially when they see you now and they hear Pelican Brief. Oh, I saw that movie. Time to Kill. Matthew McConaughey was in that. Wait, The Firm. Fi- what? What? Like, I know, I've read all of his books. I, a ton of the, the people that work here that are basically the ages of our kids were like, "My mom has read every... My dad loves him. Oh my gosh." We had to push people away from bringing their parents in and their siblings in because you have so many fans here. But most people don't know that you have laid asphalt.
- JGJohn Grisham
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
You've sold underwear. You've transferred colleges, on and on and on. So what are some of the odd jobs that you've had that, in a weird way, still inform you?
- JGJohn Grisham
All, every, all of them. Every job. Every job you ever have, uh, is material for, for the rest of your life. Uh, you learn lessons from all of them.
- MRMel Robbins
What'd you learn from selling underwear? [laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
Um, well, I, I'll, I'll- almost got fired for that. Um, the, the customer, it's a Sears Roebucks, uh, store in a mall in Memphis, and I was a very, uh, reluctant employee. I was trying to go to college and commuting and not going anywhere, 18 years old, drifting. And, um, this customer, and S- with Sears, the customer's always right, okay? This guy brought back a three-pack of white boxer briefs, or white briefs, not boxers, and wanted to return them, and the package looked, uh, suspicious. And I said, "Uh," I just, "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna take those back." He said, "Well, you, you have to." And I said, "Well, they look used." He said, "Well, maybe." I said, "Look, sir, I'm not gonna touch the underwear, okay?" And we got kind of loud. I was said, I, I said, "I will leave now. Fire me now. I'm not gonna take these underwear back." And so he got loud, and my boss came over and, uh, worked out a compromise, and, uh, I, I thought I was gonna be leaving. I was kinda hoping he'd fire me, 'cause I, I'd had enough of the underwear. It didn't last long. That wasn't much of a job. But, you know, even the, the tough construction jobs, summertime work that I had, uh, laying asphalt or driving a bulldozer or digging ditches or working for a plumbing company, that was [laughs] ... That's all just what you need as a kid, you know, I was 16, 17, 18 years old, because it makes you appreciate college. It makes you realize what you don't want in life. And, uh, you know, I've got high school friends from way back who didn't see the opportunity and, and didn't go very far, but I just knew I wasn't gonna do that kind of work for the rest of my life. I was determined. And my parents were not college graduates. Uh, they did not have the opportunity. But their dream was for us to go, but, uh, I was determined to get there. It took a while to find the right one. Uh, but yeah, I think those jobs are, are crucial to development. I te- I tell people, writers have got to... You gotta try different jobs. You gotta live different places, travel. You've gotta have success and failure and love and hate and all, all, all the different things we go through in life, broken hearts and whatever, to have something to write about. You've gotta, you gotta experience life. And, and the more varied you can make it, the better. Uh, it's just I didn't enjoy practicing law for 10 years. Uh, I hung in there, but I'm, I'm so glad I did because I would not be a writer if I hadn't been a lawyer.
- 23:46 – 28:24
What to Do When You’re Falsely Accused
- MRMel Robbins
Talk to me about writing. Um, is it true that you failed a English class in community college?
- JGJohn Grisham
No, I didn't fail. I got a D minus.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
I didn't fail.
- MRMel Robbins
You were hanging on.
- JGJohn Grisham
I didn't fail. Well, I had an A... Uh, listen, I had an A+ average, uh, all year. Uh, it was my freshman year of college, uh, freshman comp and freshman literature, and I had a really strong high school English teacher, and we, I was prepared for college a- a- as far as English is concerned. And so the course was fairly easy, and I had straight As, and I was not a, never a top student, but I enjoyed literature. And, um, the, the, the final exam came down to, uh, it was one-third of our grade. Our term paper, which was a big deal back then, uh, with sources and all that, was, um, one-third of the grade, and then the other tests and class participation. And so we're taking the final exam and, um, uh, we just started, and the teacher said, uh, "John, would you st- step out in the hallway?" And I said, "Well, sure." And we stepped out in the hallway. She had a copy of my term paper. And, uh, she said, "You have a very, uh, efficient way of words for a 19-year-old student." I didn't know what she was talking about, and I said, "Well, okay. Uh, thank you." She said, "No, I mean, you... This is, this is very, um... I haven't had many students who could write like this." And I, I said, "Okay." And she said, "I think you plagiarized this." And I said, "Oh, no." I said, "No, no, no. I don't have to plagiarize. That's, uh, no, that's not true. I didn't..." And she very dramatically turned the paper around on the back of it, and she had a big F, and she gave it to me. And I thought, "This is not fair." I mean, I didn't... And, um, I couldn't... She went back in the classroom. I, I went, I went down to the boys', the men's restroom down the hall, and I walked in. It was empty, and I got very emotional, and I was, I was crying, and it was... I was really upset by it because it wasn't true. And, um, once I pulled myself together, I, um, looked in the mirror. My face is red. My eyes are red. I say, "I can't go back in the classroom like this." And so I waited and waited and waited and, uh, finally, when the class was over, I went back into the class and picked up my test paper and gave it to her, and so I made an F on the final exam. F on the term paper, F on the final exam, and I got a D-minus, uh, for the course. And, um, it was... I left that school. [laughs] I left it behind. I went somewhere else. I was transferring a lot anyway, by the way, [laughs] but I didn't wanna stay there any longer.
- MRMel Robbins
What-
- JGJohn Grisham
But it also, it was also being falsely accused. I didn't, I didn't think about this at the time, but, um, years went by before I started, uh, writing about people who are wrongly, wrong- falsely accused and wrongfully convicted of serious crimes. Uh, it's, it's very traumatic to be accused of something when you know you're innocent, and, um, I still think about that episode. I'm, I'm lucky it's the only time it's happened in life.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh.
- JGJohn Grisham
And it wasn't that serious, I guess-
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh
- JGJohn Grisham
... in the, in the scheme of things, but, um, it was pretty, uh, pretty traumatic.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it, it, it also reveals one of your core values clearly, which is justice-
- JGJohn Grisham
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... and fairness. And the... I think that there is probably a lot about that searing experience of standing in that hallway-
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and feeling completely powerless and having no way to prove your innocence, no way to convince this woman in believing in you, and just how utterly unfair that is, and there's, there's that kind of moral grappling in almost all of your stories, and these characters needing to dig deep, which we all need to do in moments, where you have to believe in yourself in a moment when somebody else doesn't, or you have to know the truth when somebody else is saying lies about
- 28:24 – 34:20
What to Do When You Feel Lost
- MRMel Robbins
you. You know, one of the, the other things that you said that I res- that I really, uh, related to was this sense of you were 18 and drifting, and I have a feeling this is gonna be a conversation a lot of parents send to their [laughs] adult kids, especially ones that might be drifting right now. So y- you know, if somebody's in that phase, where I think a lot of people 18 to kinda 26 are feeling that acutely right now.
- JGJohn Grisham
It was a different era.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- JGJohn Grisham
It was, it was just after, um... There were, there were two f- two major factors, I think, that, um, sent me drifting. Uh, one was the fact I was raised in a very strict Southern Baptist environment, very conservative, and, um, I couldn't wait to leave home, to get away, to drink beer and chase girls and have some fun in college, and that was a huge factor. Also, it was, uh, 1973. We grew up in a suburb of Memphis, and it was a middle-class suburb, well, working-class suburb, and Vietnam hung over us all through high school. We knew boys who had gone and come back not in one piece. We knew... There was always an effort to, to join the National Guard, to flunk a medical exam, all these schemes to avoid Vietnam. By, by 1970, I was 15 years old, but I was aware of what was going on, and it was, it was a really, a dark time in, in American history, especially for kids who were facing the draft, and, and we were all staring at the draft. And, um, and so it was k- sort of a depressing... I knew I wanted to go to college, uh, but I didn't know when, and I didn't know how to get there, and my parents wanted us to go, but there was no plan to get us there, 'cause they, they didn't know any better. Um, and so I was just kind of... After I finished high school, I just sort of, uh, wasn't sure what to do, and, um, I went to three different col- two different colleges, and then when I was a sophomore, I went to, I transferred to Mississippi State because my buddies had transferred to Mississippi State. And, um, there was this one golden moment When the light goes off in your life and something happens that you don't know really what it is, it's happened at least twice in my life. I was in a classroom one day in 1975 at Mississippi State, and it was a finance course, big class, and the, uh, the war was over, Saigon was falling, and the communists were rampaging, about to take over Sai- Saigon. We were trying to evacuate all of our personnel from the, from the embassy there. And it was a t- chaotic time. Uh, more of the Vietnam War, uh, w- you know, was still, still troubling our nation. And we had this conservative professor, a bomb thrower, who thought, you know, war is great as long as somebody else is fighting it, and he was complaining about the fact that we should still be there fighting, and we weren't spending enough money to... We could have won the war, blah, blah. Um, [laughs] and he made the mistake. There was a guy in our class who had been to Vietnam, and he was about three years older than we were, and he had been wounded in Vietnam. Uh, nothing really severe, but he'd, he'd been, he'd seen combat, and he challenged the professor in a big way, and it got... And you didn't do that back then in 1975 at a conservative place like Mississippi State. You didn't, you didn't challenge a professor. Uh, this guy was fearless, and he went after him. They, they locked up, and h- the student just absolutely ripped the guy to shreds. And we thought it was wonderful. It scared us. We, [laughs] we were... I thought it was wonderful. And so I later talked to the guy, and he was a great guy, and he s- he said, um, he said, "What are you studying?" I said, "General business." He said, he said, "That's, that's crap, man. You don't wanna study that." He said, "Study accounting. It's the toughest business major. It'll prepare you for law school. I'm going to law school, and I'm gonna do this, and I'm gonna do that." They said, "That's, that's the route to go." And I said, "Okay." [laughs] Just like that. I thought, "That makes perfect sense. Law school is something I should think about." And that's when the light came on at the age of 20. Suddenly, I stopped drifting, stopped... I found my place on campus. I found my place in, in the major, started thinking about law school, and I was a different, I was a different person that one moment.
- MRMel Robbins
What's interesting about that one moment is that it has the same core value, justice. You were rooting for the Vietnam vet because of your deep sense of justice.
- JGJohn Grisham
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And the same thing was true when you got the backhanded weird compliment about what a gifted writer you were-
- JGJohn Grisham
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... in a way that was very unjust. And so the dots are there, and I think, you know, when I was talking earlier about that kind of idea in 1980 that came to you through the friend for The Firm about the firm that nobody leaves, that's kinda what I meant, that there are these little things when you look in reverse, oh, even though the path was really screwed up, I kinda see how all this connects.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And I often think about that because in moments of my life, even today, where I feel just overwhelmed or challenged, or I kn- I'm not quite sure what move to make next, I typically remind myself, well, I don't need to know. I just need to look backwards and say, "They've always led somewhere," so I can trust that where I'm standing right now is going to connect to something in the future, and I don't need to know what that is to know that it will happen. And then your advice, you write one page. You take one step. You start chapter two.
- 34:20 – 41:24
You Should Never Fear Rejection
- MRMel Robbins
Um, what was the second golden moment?
- JGJohn Grisham
Uh, far more important. Um, uh, I was a 30-year-old lawyer, uh, dreaming of being a big-time courtroom lawyer. That was my goal, to be a big trial lawyer. And because of that, I was always hanging around the courtroom, uh, in our, in our local courthouse. We had a beautiful courthouse and a beautiful courtroom, and good lawyers and good judges, and, and that was my turf, and I was always there. And, um, uh, I volunteered for a lot of court-appointed criminal cases and trials, and by the age of 30, I had been through a lot of trials, and I was sort of on the path. Um, it's hard to make a lot of money in a small town practice. Uh, that was the frustrating part. But I also had the dream of being a big trial lawyer and getting bigger cases. That was where I was headed.
- MRMel Robbins
Like that guy in Jackson Hole. What's his name? That legendary-
- JGJohn Grisham
Jerry Spence.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, Jerry Spence.
- JGJohn Grisham
I think he passed away last year. Yeah. He, he was a hero b-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- JGJohn Grisham
... 40 years ago. He was a big hero.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
A, a famous lawyer. And, uh, so I was hanging around the courtroom one day when I saw something that, um, uh, that changed everything. It was a trial, um, that I knew about. We all, we all knew about it because it was a horrible case. Young little girl had been, uh, had been raped, and they'd caught the guy, and he wanted to go to trial. He was a bad actor, terrible guy, and they brought the little girl in to testify. She was, I don't know, 10 or 12. And, uh, the judge, uh, my judge, great judge, uh, he knew that it was gonna be very, very difficult, and he did something I had never seen before. He cleared the courtroom. "Everybody out." Security was tight. Security was very tight. So everybody left the courtroom, and he put a deputy at the back door, the front door, said s- no, "No one can be admitted for the next hour or so." And, um, there were deputies all over the place. And, um, being a lawyer, I was an officer of the court, so I could hang around, and, uh, I did. And, uh, s- the little girl testified, and, um- At times she was very, uh, brave. At times she was very frail. Uh, she told what happened. It was horrible. It was horrible. And for an hour or so, she took us through every emotion known to the human soul, from love to hate to retribution to, well, you name it. Uh, we went through a rollercoaster. And, um, I kept asking myself, "What am I doing here?" And, "I don't have to be here." I knew three people on the jury, small county, and I was across the courtroom looking at them, and it's really bizarre to see all 12 jurors wiping their eyes. The judge was hiding his face. The lawyers were, you know... It, it was just horrible. And, uh, the only person who didn't show any emotion was the defendant, who was a hardened criminal. And, uh, finally she could not continue, and the judge said, "Let's take a recess." And, um, and I, thank God, I, I raced out of the courtroom, side door, went down the back steps, and, and raced to my car. When I got to my car, I realized I'd forgotten my briefcase. So I had to go back in the courtroom, up the back stairs to the side door, and the defendant was sitting in the same chair. He hadn't moved. There was a dep- nobody, and there was nobody else in the courtroom but a deputy who was kind of guarding him. Uh, but he wasn't going anywhere. And I walked by the, uh, defendant, and I just had this thought. I said, "You know, had that been my daughter and I could get this close, and I had a gun, I would happily blow your brains out." And I would look at the same jury and say, "Now, what are you gonna do to me for doing something that you all wanna do?" That was how raw, intense, and filled with hatred and re- It was awful. Uh, but it was real. It was a such, such an emotional moment. And, uh, I got through it. I got my briefcase and took off, and I had this idea of, uh, this story, uh, in a courtroom, my courtroom, a fictional story as seen through the eyes of this idealistic young attorney who gets appointed to represent this guy, and here we go. And, uh, that was the origin of A Time to Kill. And I, uh, thought about it for days and weeks, and finally I said, "You know, I'm gonna start with chapter one and tell this story." I had never written before fiction, and that's how it got started. But if I had not been in that courtroom, I'm not sure I would've been inspired or motivated enough or ambitious enough to try something like that, and that's how it got started.
- MRMel Robbins
And you ultimately wrote it, but when you went to go [laughs] get a publisher, what happened?
- JGJohn Grisham
Oh, boy.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
Uh, talk about, talk about, uh, rejection. Um, well, about halfway through, after a year or so, I had a lot of... There was a lot of stuff written, uh, still untyped, handwritten, and I began thinking about getting published. I had the big dream, the dream of writing for a living. That was, that was the big dream, and I could not shake it, didn't wanna shake it, and that's what motivated me to keep writing and reading. Reading was crucial because I read so many great, um, um, mystery writers, suspense writers, all the guys who were big in the '80s, '70s, '80s and '90s. So when I w- finally finished the book, I sent the book off to New York, the way you're supposed to do it. You know, three sample chapters, a cover letter, a pitch, and you send it off to... I had, I had a list of 10 agents and 10 publishers. Back then, you could send it to an editor. You can't do that now. You, it has, it has to come through an agent today. And [laughs] so I had 10 and 10, two lists, and my secretary, 'cause I was off at the state legislature, uh, she would send off 10 and 10, 20 submissions, go to New York. They came right back. [laughs] Rejection, rejection, rejection. And, um, I would come in on Friday afternoon from the state capitol, run by the office, and check the mail, check my rejection letters [laughs] and stuff.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
And that's, that's how it went. And, uh, I don't... There were a lot of them. But, you know, that's kind of the, that's kind of the way you did it back then. It was, rejection was so much a part of it.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I think that's kind of the way you do it now, too.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Like anything-
- JGJohn Grisham
Anything
- MRMel Robbins
... has a lot of rejection.
- 41:24 – 45:52
What Successful People Do After Failure
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna, I wanna compliment you about something. I wanna make sure the person listening or watching really gets the profound importance of something that you allowed yourself to do. You started writing just because you wanted to and you enjoyed it. Like so much of your story, which I find to be so inspiring, is that the dream didn't happen first. You were just interested. You had something you enjoyed doing just for the sake of doing it, and we've all had those moments where you get lost in something, and I think it's so important that we all have something for ourselves. And as I was listening to your story, what I, what I... You know, you said very early on, "I've always loved stories, and I grew up with storytellers, and I grew up with grandparents and parents telling stories on the porch." And allowing yourself and giving yourself permission and creating space in your life to have something that is just for you simply because you enjoy it, that to me is the fundamental lesson. Because even if you never published, even if you never wrote the 70 books or however many you've written, all of which become number one, even if none of that never happened, having that space for yourself to do something that really is for you that you enjoy doing- It brings so much meaning to your life. And so I think it's really important, I want to make sure as you're listening, you heard the brilliance in that, because the dream came after you created space for something that you actually just enjoyed doing.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah. Still enjoy it. Still, still therapy.
- MRMel Robbins
One of the things that I, that I'm really picking up on your story, because so many people get either derailed before they even start, or they get derailed because of the rejections that start coming in. And what's interesting about your story is that if you're really paying attent- attention, you know, listening as John's talking, that the getting started for you w- in terms of writing as a habit and just kinda leaning in felt like more of something that just brought a lot of meaning and joy to your life, and that that was the why. But I'm curious, how did you deal with the rejections, and how did you deal with the fact that the Time to Kill, you, you get published, it's now out there, and nothing's happening, and yet you're still writing. So what is the, what is the lesson that the person l- listening can take about processing rejection or putting yourself out there, and it's not successful, 'cause it wasn't?
- JGJohn Grisham
Well, the submission rejection, uh, routine that I went through is, was fairly typical for writers. The, uh, the, the first novel that was a flop is not unusual [laughs] in, in this profession. Um, but I, you know, there are a lot of stories, a lot of great stories about famous writers who were turned down repeatedly, uh, uh, time and time again. Nobody wanted to publish their stories, and they kept on, they kept on, they kept... And finally they got a break somewhere and, and th- those are the great stories in publishing.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- JGJohn Grisham
Some of the great books we can, we've read and enjoyed over the years were, were, uh, totally rejected. And, and I tell, I tell aspiring writers, uh, that, you know, some of these stories, they're fun stories to talk about. Uh, my story's fun. Every s- uh, almost every successful writer, uh, got rejected.
- MRMel Robbins
I think every successful person.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah, sure. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
What's in your story is that you didn't stop.
- JGJohn Grisham
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
And it goes back to one page a day. Whether the rejections come in, whether the book does well, you just didn't stop.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And to me, time and time again, that always seems to be the unifying thing that happens in successful people's story. That, and again, if I use a writing metaphor, if you're still here, the story hasn't ended, and the person that has control over where the story goes next, whether you keep writing or you keep showing up, is you. And y- because you loved what you did and you were doing it for you, it didn't matter if you [laughs] got rejected, you were gonna
- 45:52 – 53:24
How to Create Your Own Luck
- MRMel Robbins
keep writing.
- JGJohn Grisham
I don't know how long I would've done it had I not had the success with The Firm.
- MRMel Robbins
Really?
- JGJohn Grisham
I didn't have a story for the third book at the time, and, uh, I don't know... And I'd spent five years, three years for Time to Kill, two years for The Firm back to back, and I was getting kinda tired of the 5:30 routine. And I was just, you know, I, I was, I was spending a lot of time there and I, I w- and I kept thinking, "Well, um, you could be spending more time with your cases as a lawyer." I was letting some things slide, and the practice was not going anywhere because I was distracted. And, uh, at some point I had to make a decision, uh, 'cause I wasn't making any money as a w- as a writer.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGJohn Grisham
And I think at some point fairly soon after that, I would've had to have said, "Okay, I've tried twice. Uh, I can't keep doing this. But I've, I've got a great fallback position. I've got the bread and butter right here. It's my law office, and I can make that more successful, and I can forget about writing, and I can pursue my original dream of being a really successful trial lawyer."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
And I, I had some, I had some heroes, uh, some lawyers I knew in Mississippi who were very fine trial lawyers who, who I tried to pattern myself after as a very young lawyer. So I, I, I think that's probably what would've happened. Thank God it didn't come to that. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
Thank God, thank God it didn't happen. Uh, so y- you know, I, again, I feel I got a huge lucky break. I know you make your own luck, okay, but I got a huge lucky break with The Firm. Um, the book went to New York in the fall of '89, and my agent, who had, who had read the summary and loved the idea, um, he wasn't too thrilled with it. He wanted some changes made, and I said, "No, I'm not gonna make those changes." And so we were sort of at a stalemate for several months. He showed the book to, uh, some editors. There was no rush to publish The Firm. And, uh, he called me around Christmas of '89 and said, uh, "Look, nothing's happening. Uh, it's the holidays. I'll sell the book in the, in January." I said, "Okay, great. I've heard that before." And, [laughs] and so, and this is where the, the fun starts. Uh, unknown to him and unknown to me, um, a scout, uh, back then the, the major studios had scouts in New York who would hang around the publishing companies and-
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh
- JGJohn Grisham
... and pick up the gossip, uh, for a, a big book, a good book, a good manuscript. Uh, but a bootleg copy of The Firm, uh, popped up in Hollywood, uh, over the Christmas break, and a guy got it out there and, um, uh, sort of s- uh, I'm not sure what he did, but he, he pretended that he, he was my agent, and he ran 25 copies of it and sent it off to all the studios And p- and publishing and, and production companies. And he got... They started getting offers, and it got-
- MRMel Robbins
And you didn't know any of this was going on?
- JGJohn Grisham
Not a word.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
Not a word. My agent didn't know about it. Nobody knew about it except for the guys in Hollywood. And so the, the offers got more and more intense. The bidding started, and at some point, um, somebody said, "What about Grisham? Have we talked to him?" Well, nobody had. So my agent, uh, somebody called my agent. They had a huge fight. They threatened lawsuits and all this kind of stuff, and I didn't know about that. And, uh, they settled. It was obvious a big deal was about to go down, so they, they kissed and made up, and h- had a deal. And they were, [laughs] they were ready for the final round of bidding when he finally called me on a Sunday morning, and he said, "Hey, I need your authority to take the highest offer from Paramount, Universal, or Disney Touchstone for the film rights to The Firm." And I said, "Film rights? What about the book?" [laughs] And he said, "We'll talk about it later." And I said, "Whoa, whoa, wait a minute." He said, "No, this is urgent." He said, "They're sitting by their phones for the final round of bidding." And the word bidding had a nice ring to it, [laughs] and I thought, "Okay. Yeah, sure, go ahead and sell the film rights." And, uh, he called back about an hour later and said, uh, "We have just sold the film rights..." No, I s- I said, I said, um, "Okay, just for fun, how much money are we talking about?" He said, "I'm asking for 500,000. I hope to get 400,000," or something like that. And I said, "You want my authority to go do that?" And he said, "Yeah, so you, you have my authority." [laughs] He called back and he said, "We just sold the film rights to The Firm to Paramount Pictures, um, for $600,000," which was more money than I'd made in 10 years of practicing law. And, um, I, I said, "Okay, look, let me, let me call you back." And we, Renee and I sat down at the kitchen table. We, we were late for lunch at my mom's house, and we said, "You gotta be kidding. This is, this, this..." One phone call, just dropped in like that out of nowhere, totally unexpected, and that's when everything changed.
- MRMel Robbins
One thing I wanna just tease out, especially as you've been listening to John's story, 'cause you said you got lucky, and then you kind of, "Well, you make your own luck." And the fact is, you had been working toward that moment since you were 18 years old. And we recently had this extraordinary professor who researches the science of luck, and luck is this largely misunderstood thing, because it's really about the actions that you take that put you in the current to have those kinds of things happen. And the five years of writing, the kinda walking past the 28 rejections, the shrugging off the s- you know, the flop of the Time to Kill book, the continuing to write, the sending it all off, like, all of that are examples of your philosophy of one page a day, move it down the field, write another page, keep moving it forward, that put you in the current to have all of that happen.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah. Uh-
- MRMel Robbins
And it's important for the person to hear that, because it, it'd be easy to say, oh, gosh, timing, all this stuff, but none of that happens without everything that came before.
- JGJohn Grisham
Right. I, I don't downplay it. I don't, and I, I, I tend to downplay it for-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, I've noticed
- JGJohn Grisham
... to get, [laughs] to, to get a laugh.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
I lo- I love humor. I love to poke fun at myself. I mean, I don't downplay what happened, but you're right. It was a five-year journey to get to that point. I didn't realize it-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- JGJohn Grisham
... but everything I had done, and also sort of honing the craft-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- JGJohn Grisham
... learning how to write, learning the mistakes from A Time to Kill, learning how to keep a story lean and fast. That was all stuff I'd, didn't, just picked up. You know, I learned-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- JGJohn Grisham
... over time, and so, uh, the, the timing was very fortunate when it came,
- 53:24 – 55:32
How to Be More Consistent
- JGJohn Grisham
when it happened. The book came out in M- uh, when, when you saw it, May of '91, March of '91. And there was a lot of buzz behind the book when it came out, and it was, uh... It hit The New York Times list. Uh, and back in those days, a new writer on the list got a lot of attention. And so, uh, Doubleday said, um, "Can you come to New York for a victory lap?" And I said, "Sure." And came, went to New York and, and, and had a bunch of interviews. And I did Bryant Gumbel Today Show, which was the big deal back then.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- JGJohn Grisham
He was very good to me, and we got a lot of... We were having lunch, a bunch of publishers in a room and, and, and, and booksellers, and I sat next to a very young executive from, uh, the old Waldenbooks chains. Book chain.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I remember Walden, yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
Walden. Every mall had a B- a B. Dalton on one end, a Walden on the other, and those are, [laughs] those are the bookstores I grew up with. Um, and this guy, very young guy, probably my age, and he said, uh, we just m- making idle conversation, and he said something that just stuck. I'll never forget it. He said, um, we were talking about writers, and he said, "Oh, uh, the big guys come out every year." I had never thought about that. He said, "Yeah, look, look, Stephen King, Michael Crichton, Robert Ludlum, uh, you know, Ken Follett, they come out every year. The big guys come out every year. Gilmore Leonard." [laughs] And I thought, okay, I wanna be a big guy. [laughs] So I hustled back to Oxford, Mississippi, where we lived at the time, and, uh, and wrote around the clock to finish The Pelican Brief, to have it out in time to publish in '92, a year later. And, um- That's how it all kept going. That's where The Book a Year came from. That's been a book a year for, uh, 35 years now.
- MRMel Robbins
Page a day, a book a year.
- JGJohn Grisham
You're gonna keep your butt in the seat. [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Keep your butt in the seat. Talk to me about that.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah, you gotta do it. You gotta, you gotta, you gotta show up. You gotta show up.
- 55:32 – 59:12
What You Should Learn From Successful People
- MRMel Robbins
You know, um, there was some real gold in something that you've said, and I wanna combine the two and then pull it out for the person listening. You used this term where you patterned other trial lawyers, and that, you know, that was kinda your backup plan. You're following the actions of people that inspired you, and then you said, "The big guys come out every year," which is another pattern. Can you talk just a little bit about how, like, some of the secrets to success are literally right in front of you-
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... based on the patterns of people that you admire?
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah. When I was in law school, my third year, third year of law school's pretty, pretty easy compared to the first two. I didn't like law school either, okay? I didn't like law school at all.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
I'm not sure any law-
- MRMel Robbins
We have so much in common.
- JGJohn Grisham
Oh, God, couldn't stand law school. Uh, couldn't wait to get out of it. Um, but my senior year, uh, there was a federal courthouse across town, and, uh, I would watch the dockets, and I knew when the good lawyers were in court trying cases. I would cut classes, which is no big deal when you're a third-year student, to go watch, uh, the lawyers, the good lawyers. And I was in court one day watching a civil trial, and two heavyweights were going at it in front of a jury, and it was, it was magic. And I, I was sitting there, and civil trials don't draw big crowds, you know. And I was sitting, and I thought, looked around, I said, "There are no other law students here."
- MRMel Robbins
Huh.
- JGJohn Grisham
Which was no big deal. Uh, who wants to watch trials? But I did. I wanted to watch the lawyers. And so I tried to pattern my practice after those guys, and a lot of it is, is being able to, uh, discover cases. Uh, not chase 'em, but get 'em, which is probably the most difficult part. And then when I was, when I was, when I was writing, uh, when I started writing, uh, Time to Kill and The Firm, that five-year period, I read a lot of popular fiction. And, and it was really kinda odd because I would read a book and I would say, uh, "This is crap, okay?"
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGJohn Grisham
"This guy, this is terrible. I can beat this." And I knew I could. I mean, I knew I could tell a better story. I could certainly write better than a lot of popular fiction, a lot of really popular fiction, and that was inspirational. And I was also, also very, uh, honest, and I would read a book and say, "I'll never be that good."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGJohn Grisham
Still do that.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh.
- JGJohn Grisham
But it's, it's, it's always something better. You got something to aspire for. So I've, I want every book to be my best book, okay? And to get better and get better. And, and so an honest judge of my own work, but I knew there was room for me on the bestseller list, and it was often the bad books that inspired me to keep going. [laughs] Or I'd walk, I'd walk into Walden bookstore or a B. Dalton, and they have the big wall of all the New York Times bestsellers and big, beautiful books, and I'd, you know, I knew a lot of them, and I would s- get so sad thinking, "Who wants to hear from me? Look at all those books up there. Look at all those books." And, and I would get, I'd worry about that for a while, and, but I wouldn't slow down. And I, I tell writers all the time, "Look, publishing needs new talent every year. If you wanna get inspired to write, read debut novels. These are first-time writers, and they're celebrated, and we celebrate 'em. We need new writers
- 59:12 – 1:03:07
How to Succeed in a Crowded Field
- JGJohn Grisham
every, somebody's gonna get published every year."
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I love that moment where you're saying, "Who's gonna read what I write?" Like, "Who's gonna read me?" For the person who knows what they want but is in that swirl, 'cause I did that with this podcast for many, many years. Like, there's so many of them. Who's g- who wants to hear from me? Lots of people have already done it. For the person that's saying that to themselves, like you used to in the bookstore, what would you tell them?
- JGJohn Grisham
You can't control all that. You can't control what everyb- somebody else writes. You can't control what's, what, what the publishers publish. You can't control what the stores sell. Work with what you can control, which is your own fiction, and you can make it better. If you have a great story, something new, write it, uh, and, and don't quit. You know, I tell writers, "If you, when, when are you gonna stop writing?" "When I run out of stories."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGJohn Grisham
Or, or writers say, "I've been, I've written five novels, and I've had 'em all rejected. Uh, you know, what am I, what would you advise me to do?" And I will say, "Well, keep writing if you have a story." Now, a lot of the great writing is a God-given talent.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
We use, you know, there's some writers, like s- in any field, you have, you have people who are just, have so much talent, uh, that, that, that comes through DNA or right education or what- whatever experiences they have. But you can also improve your own writing, uh, by watching those people-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- JGJohn Grisham
... by trying to be like them, trying to be great like they are.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- JGJohn Grisham
And also d- technical skills that you can, you can, you can master yourself. You know, vocabulary and grammar and, and, and, and reading. Reading, reading, reading is the most important. I don't know a single writer, successful writer, who is not a, an avid reader.
- MRMel Robbins
Y- you gave some really, I think, cool advice, and I don't even know if you realize this. So as you're standing in the bookstore and you're looking at all the greats and you're thinking, "W- there's no room for me."
- JGJohn Grisham
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
"I'm never gonna be that good." We don't look at the books that are crap and use it as motivation to go, "If this garbage can get published, why not me?" You know what I mean? [laughs] Like, "If this person can do it, why not me?" And so I think there's patterns of both ends, to not just look up. You look up for the actual skills of success, and the technique, and talent. Look down to remind yourself that there are people who are far less talented than you-
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... that are putting themselves out there, that are writing one page at a time. You know, the reason, John, that I release two episodes a week is because the big guys have two a week. And so the patterning that you're talking about is all around you. And when you were sitting in that courtroom as a third-year law student, watching the two big dogs go at it in a civil case, and you look around going, "Why is nobody else here? Who wants to watch a civil trial?" A person who wants to be amazing at it studies the greats. You're a student before you're a great, and that's everywhere in your story, that you're looking around. You're looking for great stories. You're looking for inspiration. You're looking for patterns. You're looking for what the great writers do. And you know, I even think that one of the reasons why I was so excited to have you on and talk to you about your story is because I know every single person, the person who's listening right now, they listen because they want the patterns from your life.
- JGJohn Grisham
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
They wanna know what they can learn from you. And even though a lot of what you're sharing is about the way you think about writing, it is 1,000% the exact same way that you do anything in life. Anything.
- 1:03:07 – 1:05:02
Why Innocent People Go to Prison
- MRMel Robbins
Um, you know, when I, um... I would love to hear more about the Innocence Project and what you learned from this work.
- JGJohn Grisham
When I was a young lawyer, I saw this obituary one day in The New York Times about this guy who had obviously just died, and he was very much like me. Same age, same, uh, neck of the woods, same region, and he came within five days of being executed in Oklahoma. And I thought, "How could this guy go to death row and be, and be innocent?" And I was just, I was just, just stunned by the story. I took off to Oklahoma. I took off, and I met with his family, and I said, "I'm gonna write this book." And, um, and they said, [laughs] "Great." Um, they were still mourning his death. Writing that book took me into the world of wrongful convictions, and once I realized there are thousands of innocent people in prison, it was a big wake-up call for me, and that was 20 years ago. And so I'm still writing about them, still published a book two years ago about wrongful convictions. Still angry at how they happen. Still, uh, advocate for criminal justice reform. Uh, still frustrated by the lack of reform. Uh, so it's something I'm caught up in.
- MRMel Robbins
Um, I admire that in you. Um, especially having been a public defender and having Bryan Stevenson as one of my, my most, uh, inspiring mentors for sure. We've had him here on the show. He's-
- JGJohn Grisham
He's, uh-
- MRMel Robbins
His work is incredible.
- JGJohn Grisham
He's, he's, uh, one of a kind. What he has accomplished is, is, uh, is truly amazing, and his book was, uh, very inspirational. We visited his, uh, museums in Montgomery, and were just, um, really, uh, overcome.
- 1:05:02 – 1:09:04
How to Find Hope in Difficult Times
- MRMel Robbins
How do you stay hopeful when the world is overwhelming, and when you're in these cases and grappling with issues of justice in your work? How do you stay hopeful?
- JGJohn Grisham
I tell myself, "Okay, go back to the basics. Worry about the things you can control." Okay? Uh, that you can wake up each morning and see the news and just fret and worry yourself into a deep funk and stay there all day. Uh, or you can say, "Okay, I'm not... Yeah, the world's a mess, okay? Uh, what can I do today to make it a little better? How, how can I help someone today to make it a little bit better?" And that's what I do.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
That's al- almost every day. Uh, obviously I can, I can escape in my own world and go write some fiction, which is what I do. I still do. Uh, and I can also work with a lot of nonprofits and things like that to try to make the world better, and get a lot of gratification from that. My wife and I are active with, uh, childhood hunger issues, homelessness, and, and wrongful convictions. We stay pretty busy, um, working with nonprofits, and that's extremely gratifying.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGJohn Grisham
So that's gives us hope. We hope we're providing hope for someone else. Uh, s- baby steps, small steps, a little something every day.
- MRMel Robbins
One page a day.
- JGJohn Grisham
Yeah, one page a day.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I often think about this too, because it is very overwhelming, and, um, there's a lot to feel despair about. And on one hand, I think the fact that you feel heartbroken about some of the things that you see is a good thing.
- JGJohn Grisham
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause it means that you still have a heart to break, and you still care about goodness, and justice, and kindness, and the dignity of how people are treated. And I agree with you. I feel hopeless when I look out there.
- JGJohn Grisham
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
But I feel very empowered when I just look in my community, and I look around me, and I say, "What is one thing I can do today that really is part of a positive shift? Whether it's in my home, in my r- marriage, in my friendships, in my community, in the world at large." And I truly think if enough of us just start doing that, everything is gonna start to change for the better.
- JGJohn Grisham
And there are so many people doing that.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- JGJohn Grisham
The good, the good outnumber the bad.
- MRMel Robbins
That's true. I agree with you. John Grisham-
- JGJohn Grisham
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
You are just an absolute amazing, amazing, generous, and very talented person. Thank you for-
- JGJohn Grisham
You're being very generous. Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
You're welcome.
- JGJohn Grisham
You're, you're very welcome.
- MRMel Robbins
You're welcome. And, uh-
- JGJohn Grisham
Thanks for having me on your show.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, of course. And give Renee my best. I can't wait to meet her one of these days.
- JGJohn Grisham
She would love that.
- MRMel Robbins
I would love that, too. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for making the time to spend it here with me and John Grisham, and I hope that you feel so inspired, and you are just gonna go put your butt in the chair, turn the page, and start writing that new chapter. And in case no one else tells you, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to say I love you, and I believe in you and your ability to create a better life. And you got so many amazing pieces of wisdom and tools from John Grisham today, so fricking use them.
- JGJohn Grisham
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
All righty. I'll see you in the next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank you for watching all the way to the end. Didn't you love hearing all of this from John Grisham? I know I did. And thank you also for sharing this with people in your life who need a little inspiration to start writing their next chapter. All righty, I know you wanna watch another episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast. You're gonna love this one, and I will welcome you in the moment you hit play.
Episode duration: 1:09:07
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