The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Build a Better Future: 2 Simple Questions That Uplevel Your Life Immediately
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
55 min read · 10,911 words- 0:00 – 4:35
Introduction
- MRMel Robbins
Today, you and I are gonna talk about a topic that I get a ton of questions about. Whether you're in a job right now, and you wanna make more money and get promoted and get ahead, or you dream of having a business of your own, this is the episode you've been asking for. Here today is the one and only Seth Godin. Seth is considered the godfather of modern marketing and is the bestselling author of more than 20 books. He is also the person that I have called my mentor from afar for the last 15 years, and he's gonna give you the business secrets that will help you finally move forward.
- SGSeth Godin
Why don't we do work that's worth doing? Why don't we take a deep breath and say, "Life is really short." Why would you waste a minute or a day or a year just doing your job if you have any other option? I've had a series of businesses, almost all of which did not make a lot of money. Fine. The same way Picasso painted a lot of paintings, but only a few of them became famous.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I love that. How do you know when to quit?
- SGSeth Godin
You don't wear a tutu to work anymore, even though you took ballet lessons when you were six.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs] Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Right? And so we all quit stuff as we go up. What we wanna figure out, is there a dip, the hard part before it gets easier? This is what happens at the gym in February. Most people quit the gym in February because that's when it gets hard. If you get through that dip, it's pretty clear that by June you've got six-pack abs.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
I get it. I've been to places where people need to work today to eat tomorrow. But if you are not one of those people, are we making excuses about the system, or are we making the system better?
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's Mel, and I am so excited to learn from Seth Godin, to be inspired. You are not gonna be the same person after watching this today. But here's the thing. My team just told me that 57% of you that watch The Mel Robbins Podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. So here's how you know you're not a subscriber. The button is lighting up right now. It is free to hit Subscribe. I know you're the kind of person that loves supporting people who support you, so I wanna thank you in advance. Thank you for hitting Subscribe. It's the best way to show our team that you love what we're doing. It also supports us in helping you bring world-class, world-renowned experts like Seth Godin, 20 bestselling consecutive books in a row. He's about to pour into you like you've never felt before. I don't want you to miss a thing. That's why hitting Subscribe matters. Thanks for doing that. All right. Let's get into the show. Seth Godin, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- SGSeth Godin
Thanks, Mel.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so fired up that you're here because you have had an enormous influence on me, on the way that I think about marketing, on making an impact, on running a business, on self-worth, on confidence, and I am so excited because I, I envision what's about to happen, is this conversation is a free resource for somebody who has an idea or who has a little business or who has something on the side or just wants to be more successful to get coaching and advice from the person I think is the best in the world at this.
- SGSeth Godin
Thanks, Mel.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
That's really kind of you. The, the, the reason to do the work is for people to put good things in the world. So I'm gonna chalk this one up as a good one. Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
You're welcome, and thank you. What could change if you take everything to heart that you're about to share with us about business, marketing, success, confidence, making an impact, to heart, and you put it to work in your life?
- SGSeth Godin
My hope is that the words and ideas we're gonna talk about today will help you find the empathy to show up for people, to help them get to where they want to go. 'Cause once you do that, the sky's the limit. If you solve people's problems, they will show up and ask you to do it again.
- MRMel Robbins
Seth, before we jump into everything that you're about to teach us about starting a business, running a business, being successful in business, all of these same rules apply about you being successful in your career. How to make more money, how to get a promotion. All of that stuff will work for you as well because the truth is, not everybody wants to start a business. Not everybody should. And a lot of people who want to start a business are currently working full time in a job that they still wanna be successful in.
- 4:35 – 10:31
The 2 Questions to Find Meaning In Your Work and Life
- MRMel Robbins
If you had one piece of advice when it comes to the world of s- business, marketing, being more successful and fulfilled this year, what would it be?
- SGSeth Godin
Why don't we do work that's worth doing? Why don't we take a deep breath and say, "Life is really short. I'm never gonna agai- again gonna say I'm just doing my job." Why would you waste a minute or a day or a year just doing your job if you have any other option?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
I think we need to be proud of our work, that I get it. I've been to places where people need to work today to eat tomorrow, but if you are not one of those people, I think you need to raise the bar, and you need to say, "Are we proud of this? If my mom was watching, would I want her to see what we're doing?" Are we making excuses about the system, or are we making the system better?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
One of the lines I like the most is, "You're not stuck in traffic, you are traffic." And you should think about what that means.
- MRMel Robbins
What does it mean?
- SGSeth Godin
Well, it's easy to complain about being stuck in traffic, but if you weren't in your car on that road, there might not be traffic today.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
That we all show up to eagerly part, be part of some system 'cause we think we don't have a choice. But the fact is, you didn't sit around waiting for Dateline or 60 Minutes to call you up and say, "We're gonna put your show on network TV." You started a show. There are people who say, "I don't approve of the college industrial complex, so I'm gonna start something that gives gap year students a way forward." There are people who say, "I don't like the way the non-profit world deals with hunger."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
"So I'm gonna build a totally different way to exchange information." They don't wanna be traffic. They want to do something about it. I think where I begin every time is, this work I'm doing, who's it for and what's it for?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
If you can't answer those two questions very specifically, go back, rewind 30 seconds, and start over. Who exactly is this for? What's the smallest viable audience? How many people would be enough? And what is the change I'm here to make? So when you look at something like your book, Home Run, not because it sold 40 million copies, but because the right people bought it for the right reason-
- MRMel Robbins
Sure
- SGSeth Godin
... and it made a change happen. So let's get very clear, who's it for and what's it for? And then the second part is to develop the empathy to realize other people don't want what you want, they don't see what you see, they don't need what you need, and that's okay.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, that, that feels like two, like, conflicting messages, right? Who's it for and what's it for. So if I'm a hairstylist or a photographer or a realtor, and I'm, and I'm asking, "Who's it for and what's it for?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't... It's for people who need a haircut."
- SGSeth Godin
That's a great place to start.
- MRMel Robbins
What's it for, so that they feel better?
- SGSeth Godin
Let's do the hairdressing.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SGSeth Godin
Because if your motto is, uh, "You can pick anyone, and I'm anyone," then you're doomed.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. [laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
Right? That's the, that was the attraction of Google in the old days. If you could just win the search for hotel or hairdresser, hair... You're, you're looking for someone, I'm someone. That's not gonna help you. There's a hairdresser near my home that only works on women who have curly hair. It's all she does. Perfect. If you're bald, don't come. If you're a guy, don't come. If you don't have curly hair, don't come. If you have curly hair, but you want a cheap haircut, don't come. I can only cut 10 people's hair a day. That's enough. Who's it for? It's for people who want to look the way I want to help them look. What's it for? To give them an experience that will make them decide it was worth more than it cost. That's it. Who's it for? What's it for? And now, if somebody shows up and says, "I can promote you here and do this and do this," you can say, "No, thanks. I know exactly who my who's it for is. I know what the what's it for. This is gonna be a great gig."
- MRMel Robbins
What's so genius about those two questions in the example you just gave, who's it for, what's it for, is it forces you to get very honest with yourself about what you're doing and why you're doing it.
- SGSeth Godin
Yes. So this leads to two interesting outcomes. The first one is you need to be able to regularly say, "Sorry, it's not for you." No apology. "The, these baked goods are so expensive." "Sorry, they're not for you." And number two is, how often are you regularly referring people to someone who might think of, they might think of as your competitor? If you're never doing that, then you're really stuck in the, "I'm anyone." But that woman with the curly hair?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SGSeth Godin
If you show up with, you know, s- bangs and straight hair, she's gonna say, "Oh, go to David down the street." If you're a Ferrari dealer and someone shows up and says, "I got a carpool, seven kids," they don't try to persuade you to buy an Enzo. They say, "My brother-in-law's got a Volvo dealership. I'll call ahead for you." That generosity of being specific pays all these enormous dividends. If you're trying to collect everything all the time, it's exhausting.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna go through a couple more examples, because this foundational piece, I truly, really understand-
- SGSeth Godin
People skip it all the time.
- 10:31 – 13:03
How to Stand Out in a Crowded Market
- MRMel Robbins
But I guess if you're marketing to everyone, you're marketing to no one.
- SGSeth Godin
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
And if you're available for everything, then you really don't stand for anything.
- SGSeth Godin
Right. So the two most popular jobs in America are real estate agent and truck driver.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- SGSeth Godin
Both of those professions are guilty of this problem.
- MRMel Robbins
So how would you do this for the truck driver? Who's it for? What's it for?
- SGSeth Godin
So if a truck driver says, "I drive trucks, where do you need me to go?" You're a commodity. The trucking company's gonna hire the cheapest person they possibly can. But if you're a truck driver who has earned the skills to transport really expensive collectible cars-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- SGSeth Godin
... now you can be the best in the world at that.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
You're the one and only, right? Get me Terry. Terry knows how to do this. At first, it's harder, because you better be really good at it. You can't just be average.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- SGSeth Godin
But then it's better. For a realtor, oh, I have the business card with my little picture on it, just like everybody else does. I started calling my group a team, 'cause that's what everybody else does, and we signed up with the biggest firm, 'cause that's what everybody else does, and I'm part of multiple listings, so I can sell any house or buy any house. Well, if you disappeared, I'd be fine. I'd find somebody else to work with. You're not the one and only. But two examples. There's a real estate broker in New York City who, as far as I know, only buys and sells in one luxury building. It's enough. If you're selling $8 million apartments, you don't need that many. And if you live in that building, you know about him. He probably sold you your apartment. By obsessively focusing on the building where he lives-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- SGSeth Godin
... he becomes the one and only.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- SGSeth Godin
It's enough. It's more than enough. Or I think about the real estate agent I wrote about in my town. His father was a real estate broker before him. When we went to look in the town, he puts you in his car and he takes you on a tour of all 2,000 houses, especially the ones that aren't for sale. He tells you who lives where, why they live there, and he doesn't try to sell you a house. And he knows all the teachers. He, he, the, the, the Cub Scouts can have a meeting in his office. He's the mayor without being the mayor. You wanna buy a house two towns over? Don't call him. What a waste that would be, right? One place, he stands for something. Another broker I know has built a following, without breaking any laws, in which most of her clients are lesbians. They feel comfortable with her, she feels comfortable with them, and she's the one and only. And you're not trying to be something to other people.
- 13:03 – 21:22
What to Know Before You Start a Business
- MRMel Robbins
Let me give you a business that I actually have three different friends that are experimenting with this. The, the business is granola.
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
That I have a recipe for granola that I love to make. My friends tell me it's fantastic. I love making it. I package it up. I give it as gifts. People love it. I've been thinking for a couple years, I should go to the farmers market. I should try this out.
- SGSeth Godin
[gasps]
- MRMel Robbins
You know, and I'm hearing you, Seth, and I'm going, "Okay, who's it for? What's it for? How do we apply some of this foundational stuff to somebody who's gonna go do it this Saturday?"
- SGSeth Godin
So I wanna answer a different question, and then we're gonna come back to this.
- MRMel Robbins
Great.
- SGSeth Godin
Business is almost never about what you make right now.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
I know some kids who grew up wanting to be musicians, and they've ended up getting jobs in the music industry. So how are they spending their day? They're spending their day in meetings and with filing cabinets. They should've just gone to work at a law firm, 'cause they have nothing to do with music except that Elvis Presley's name is on something they make, right? That to be in the granola business almost certainly means you're not gonna be making any granola. That's not what it is to be in the granola business.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
To be in the granola business is to create a story and an item that people will happily pay more than it costs to make and tell their friends about. These are issues of logistics and marketing and packaging and customer service and finance and supply chain and management of people. The number of times you're gonna be in the kitchen inventing a new kind of granola is close to zero. So we should take a really deep breath before we even get there and say, "How do you want to spend your day?"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
You're not going to spend your day making granola. So my wife runs one of the biggest gluten-free bakeries in America.
- MRMel Robbins
She does?
- SGSeth Godin
She does.
- MRMel Robbins
I don't think I knew that.
- SGSeth Godin
Yes. The, she's in 700 stores around the country.
- MRMel Robbins
You're kidding. What's the name of the bakery?
- SGSeth Godin
It's, it's called By the Way.
- MRMel Robbins
By the Way. I did not know that, Seth.
- SGSeth Godin
It's in Sprouts and Whole Foods, and she has four retail outlets in New York.
- MRMel Robbins
Congratulations.
- SGSeth Godin
Well, I'll pass it on to her. It's all hers. I don't... Uh, sometimes I will deliver a cake in an emergency, so if you order a custom cake and you see me show up, that's, that's true.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I love that.
- SGSeth Godin
But she doesn't spend any time making brownies. That's not her job, right? There are more than 80 people work there. Of course she's not making brownies. That's not what you do. You are the exception, Mel Robbins, 'cause you make a podcast. W- If you send somebody else in, we would notice.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SGSeth Godin
But every-
- MRMel Robbins
God, I hope so
- SGSeth Godin
... every other job, that's not your job. Your job is to create the system and the conditions for the business to thrive, and you're gonna hire somebody to make granola. You can approve the granola, but you know, Martha Stewart isn't sitting there making granola either. So what I suggest to people, do not pick a glamorous business.
- 21:22 – 28:36
The Truth About Being an Entrepreneur
- MRMel Robbins
What happens when you start the wedding photography business, and now it's taken over every weekend of your life, and you never see your own family? What happens when you start the personal training business, and you're so busy training other people, you can't even work out for yourself? What happens when you're the realtor, and now you are so busy running around and doing open houses and printing posters and working on the website and trying to do social media and talking back and forth to the lawyers and working on closing and staging things, that now you just are working 100 hours a week, and you can barely keep your head above water? Let's talk about what happens when the business that you're running is running you over.
- SGSeth Godin
So I wanna take a step back and talk about this myth of being an entrepreneur. Lots of people call themselves entrepreneurs. I used to be an entrepreneur. I'm not an entrepreneur anymore. I'm a freelancer. Freelancing is a great way to make a living. Freelancing and entrepreneurship are different. An entrepreneur uses assets, usually other people's money, to build something bigger than themselves. An entrepreneur makes money when they're asleep. If you are doing the work, you're probably a freelancer.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
If you're an entrepreneur, you're building an institution, right? Now, what tends to happen is talented freelancers get dreams of building something bigger than themselves. They're tired. They want something that's gonna have scale. But every time times get tough, they hire the best available, cheapest person. You know who that is? Themselves.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
'Cause they work for free, and so you end up hiring yourself to do all the jobs, and no wonder you're exhausted, 'cause you're not doing your real job, which is building something bigger than yourself. You keep hiring yourself to do the jobs. What's a freelancer? Freelancer, someone who gets paid when they work. They, and they alone, do the work. You might have assistants, whatever, but a freelancer can't scale 'cause they're a freelancer. They're hands, insight, skills for hire.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, not everybody is built to be a freelancer or an entrepreneur. Most people are gonna have a very successful, happy, healthy life working for someone else.
- SGSeth Godin
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
How do these principles apply to somebody who wants to be more successful in their career this year?
- SGSeth Godin
I love this. Here's the deal. Whether or not you're getting a paycheck, you're still marketing. You're still telling a story to your coworkers, to your boss. Every time you go to a meeting, and you open your mouth, people have an expectation of what they're gonna hear from you. You have a personal brand, even if you don't have a personal ad campaign, and that brand is the promise we make. It's what do we expect. So Nike has a brand. If they came out with a line of hotels, we all know what it would be like. Hyatt doesn't have a brand. They're just a logo. If they came out with a line of sneakers, we have no clue what it would be like. So what do people expect from you? What does it mean when you say, "I'm gonna take on a project"? How do you become seen by living your story as the linchpin, as the person that would be hard to live without?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
Whether you're a waitress at a cafe or you're making six figures on Wall Street, it's always the same. There is a shortage of people who make promises and keep them. There is a shortage of people who light up a room every time they walk into it. And you might not currently be as skilled as some people, you might not be as privileged as some people, but what we get to do is market this story and inhabit it, and become the contributor we're proud to be. And if you have a job where your boss doesn't deserve that from you, you should go get another job. The goal is to be someone we would miss if you were gone.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, I love that. The goal is to be someone you would miss if you were gone. I also think it's a great thing to reflect on, am I actually somebody that my company would miss? Because if you are phoning it in or you are disenfranchised, and you can see that there are areas where you are not bringing the energy, you're not doing your best work, I like those questions even when I think about myself as an employee. Who's it for?
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
Right? Who is it for, and, like, w- what's it for? This thing that I'm doing right now, this, this presentation that I'm doing, who's it for, and what's it for?
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
And can I do it better?
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you wanna say to that person who is in a day job, and they're a freelancer for their dreams, and the who's it for, what's it for, who's it serving, they're doing that?
- SGSeth Godin
I'm worried that you might have the world's worst boss.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
This person doesn't appreciate you. They're constantly nitpicking the work you do. Sometimes they call you at home in the middle of the night to make you worried about something. They don't get you the training you need, and they're filled with negative talk. You have probably guessed that that person is you, that sooner or later, we work for ourselves, as a freelancer or even as someone building a career. And that boss, that one who's denigrating us, undermining us, pushing us to conform, telling us we will never amount to anything, amplifying our fear, pushing us to hide, when we have the world's worst boss, it's no surprise that our work isn't filling us with anything. Because the talk inside of our head, the story we're telling ourselves, undermines all of it. And we can go find a friend or f- a group, start a circle, to change the way our boss talks to us. Because if there was a boss like that in the real world, you would never work for them, and you shouldn't work for yourself if you're undermining yourself that way.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you find that circle? Like, I, I, you know, I, I, I'm, I'm seeing a lot of people emailing just saying, "I really wanna find a circle of people that are going to help me achieve my goals." What are some strategies or tools that you have, or thoughts that you have on that?
- SGSeth Godin
In my experience, the most direct path is to find someone who's doing any kind of work online, or just commenting interestingly online, and support them. To find people who wish that someone like you would show up for them. Because if you do that, they will probably return the favor. That when we say, "I am here to help you see where you are going, and if I can help, I would be delighted," they might be able to do that for us. Right now, before the sun sets, go find two or three people and support them, and that's how it begins.
- 28:36 – 35:28
Seth Godin’s Best Marketing Advice for Your Business
- MRMel Robbins
So let's get into some of the tactics, because a lot of people that are trying to build a business, trying to market themselves, you're putting yourself out there, you gotta show up consistently. What does that even mean?
- SGSeth Godin
What a trap, Mel.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
What a trap.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you mean? [laughs] My God.
- SGSeth Godin
People don't spend good money to buy from people who are familiar to them. Marketing is not about getting the word out. Marketing is not showing up on social media and other places, becoming familiar, and then people just give up and buy from you. That's not how it works. You tell a story. This story creates tension, the tension of being left out, the tension of falling behind, the tension of maybe this will work for me, the tension of all my friends are doing it. That tension might spread 'cause it's remarkable, worth talking about, but then what you want is for people to relieve the tension by buying from you.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
They're not going to hire you to be a trainer 'cause they've seen you on TikTok. That's not what happens. One person told me he got 40 million views to a video he did on TikTok and sold four copies of his book. No surprise, because entertaining and performing for people on TikTok is not the same as solving their problem by selling them a $20 book. Those are totally different transactions.
- MRMel Robbins
One of the things that I see a lot is people focusing on the outcome, like how much money you make, how many downloads you have, how many things that you've sold, how many likes it got, how many views it got, and you say that will destroy your business.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah, and you. So, so let's begin with compared to what? Right? You have this many views compared to what? Well, why are we comparing the number of views you have to someone who does something unrelated?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
Or even something related to.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
Compared to what isn't relevant, it's who did I help today? If you've decided to set up a shop in a place that's filled with lots and lots and lots of other people who are hustling way harder than you, that's your future. You're gonna have to keep hustling. But that's not what you signed up for. You signed up f- for connection. You signed up to make a difference. So we need to not get distracted by how many views you got. The people who like you online don't like you. The people who friend you online are not your friends. The people who follow you online are not your followers. They're just clicking buttons 'cause the algorithm wants them to. What are we measuring here, and how can we force ourselves to ignore the measurements that are gonna distract us? And that means that if a one-star review on Google is gonna ruin your whole day and push you to change a menu that's working, you need to create a boundary so you never even see a one-star review on Google, 'cause it's not relevant to the success of what you're trying to build. So forgive that person and move on. And if you need to hire a person whose only job is to send nice notes to people who give you one-star reviews, fine, but you don't wanna hear about it. You wanna measure what does matter. You wanna f- figure out, oh, when I changed, uh, the menu to do this, this many people bought more stuff or fewer things.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
I can watch what people do. I'm not going to engage in a dance with someone who's not good at giving criticism, self-acknowledged not good at giving criticism, but I'm gonna take it for gospel, memorizing every word of it. That's not gonna make your business better. You're hiding. It's resistance.
- MRMel Robbins
This has been critical for me, taking this advice for you, and I think one thing that's really helped me is thinking about what is the one thing I can spend my time on that creates the biggest impact.
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
What are the things that only I can do that really drive the results that I care about, that are around making a positive difference? And so I'm just gonna explain this because it's really helped me. People constantly ask me, Seth, like, "How do you deal with all the negative comments?" I'm like, "What negative comments?" I don't live in a bubble, but I know myself, and negative comments from strangers online aren't aligned with the mission that I have.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
So why would I waste time looking at them? I also do not have the logins for the back end of the data on this show, because if I started-
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... obsessing over downloads, then I would take my eye off the ball of the one thing I can do, which is spending my time on what is the next best conversation I can have, what is the next best thing that I can put out and work on that would make a difference with one person-
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... somewhere in this world. How do I put Seth in the biggest light to make the biggest difference? And if I had looked at the downloads before-
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... now all of a sudden I'm looking at that. And so I think that this is something that's super important. Everybody has a megaphone. Everybody can tell you what they think, but I'd really only take that criticism from somebody who deeply cares or somebody who's already doing something similar-
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... or somebody whose opinion you respect.
- SGSeth Godin
Right, and when we add the authenticity part, it gets even more toxic, 'cause-
- 35:28 – 38:37
How to Make Better Business Decisions
- MRMel Robbins
that. How do you make good decisions?
- SGSeth Godin
So Mel, let me ask you a question.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- SGSeth Godin
In the last six months, have you made a good decision?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Did it turn out well?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
That's what everybody says. They're completely unrelated. We have become attached, connected, to say good decisions lead to good outcomes.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- SGSeth Godin
They are unrelated. If you buy a lottery ticket and win the lottery, you made a bad decision. Buying a lottery ticket is always a bad idea. But then you got lucky. Congratulations. I'm glad you got lucky, but that's not the point. On the other hand, if you make a good decision and it turns out badly, not your fault. You just didn't get lucky this time. And so what Annie Duke, the world poker champion, taught me is that the secret of winning at poker is exactly the same as any other decision you wanna make, whether you're a football coach or you're at work or you're a parent. Stop worrying about the outcome. Stop deciding that good outcomes are caused by good decisions. They're not. Good decisions are simply Based on the data that's in front of us, would a good decision-maker choose what I chose? If the answer is yes, then you made a good decision. So suddenly, we're not paralyzed anymore.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
Because we say, "I don't have to become, uh, fall in love with the outcome. I don't have to guarantee the outcome." I can just say, "Based on what's in front of me, any good decision-maker would chose- choose what I chose," and stop conflating outcomes with decisions.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what else I just got, was that a lot of times when a decision feels like a bad one in the moment, when you look backwards 10 years from now, you realize it was actually a really good decision based on the circumstances.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
It was the right decision. It just often feels wrong in the moment to make the right decision.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah. You wanna become the person your future self will thank you for. You wanna make decisions that the Mel in eight years is gonna say, "Wow, I'm glad I did that."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm. And the only way you know that is if you are really true to yourself. If you look at the facts that you have, if you go back to these questions, you literally can ask, like, who's it for, what's it for, who's this serving in terms of this decision? How do I know it would be a good decision or the right decision or the wrong decision based on what I know? And if I analyze all of that, and with the best of intentions, make the best decision that-
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... I can at that moment, then it's always a good decision.
- SGSeth Godin
Correct. Nailed it.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, 'cause there's a lot of times where you make a really good decision, but it impacts somebody, and your intention wasn't to do that. So even though somebody might have been disappointed or ups- it doesn't make the decision bad, it just means it impacted somebody.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
So you can apologize for the impact and still know you made the right decision for you.
- SGSeth Godin
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. That's so good.
- 38:37 – 40:21
How to Find the Right Customers for Your Business
- MRMel Robbins
You have this saying, Seth, "Choose your clients, choose your future."
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean?
- SGSeth Godin
Okay, so you're gonna spend most of your time dealing with your clients-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- SGSeth Godin
... or chasing people who aren't yet your clients, and you wanna make them happy. So if your clients are really, really stressed out brides and grooms a week before their wedding in the Hamptons, that's who you're gonna be spending all your time with. That's the kind of emergencies you're gonna have to deal with. If your clients are people who are penny pinchers and who examine every single line item, well, then be prepared that that's how you're gonna have to spend your day.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
If you have a restaurant like McDonald's, McDonald's figured out that the clients that they could do the best with were in a car in a hurry to get somewhere. So what they do at McDonald's is there are inspectors with stopwatches, and they show up, and they see how long it... That is not what happens at the modern restaurant in Manhattan that Danny Meyer owns. There's nobody with a stopwatch there. Different clients, different output. So when you pick your customers, their stories, their fears, their desires, their budgets, what they use as fuel, you've just announced how you wanna spend your days. Don't let your clients decide this. You decide. When you pick your clients, you then get to pick. And the same thing's true f- if you're a teacher. When you pick your students, right, if you're gonna have a whole bunch of fractious, sugared-up students who don't care about school-
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
... that's the way your day's gonna be spent.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Whereas if you go to some place that's selective, and the people are really enrolled, like Julliard, you don't have to say, "People, shut up and sit down," 'cause you're teaching at Julliard. The students you picked determine how you spend
- 40:21 – 45:30
Freelancer Advice: What Every Freelancer Needs to Know
- SGSeth Godin
your day. So how do you get ahead if you're a freelancer? It's simple. Get better clients. Better clients challenge you more, pay you more, talk about you more. You can't have more clients, 'cause you're a freelancer, but you can have better clients. Better clients are the ones, like Chip Kidd, the great book cover designer. Chip Kidd can only design 30 book covers a year, whatever it is, and if you don't get the joke, get out. No one goes to Chip and argues with him about typography. No one says, "Go make this book look like my self-published mother-in-law's book." He's Chip Kidd, for God's sake. That's how you move up. Become the kind of freelancer that better clients want. That doesn't mean you're cheaper, and you don't get to be that by doing a good job for bad clients. You do that by showing up where freelancers for good clients show up, doing work that freelancers for good clients do. So if you're a freelancer, guard your time like gold, 'cause you don't get it back, right? If you're a freelancer, don't imagine you can hire 30 versions of you, but who work cheaper. Not gonna happen. Freelancers can do great, because they can find a path where they can do their craft and be respected for it.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
Entrepreneurs can do great, 'cause they see the market and serve the market, not 'cause they try to hustle their way by turning their hobby and too many hours and too much stress into somehow magically getting big. No. There's a dead zone in between there. Don't fall into that zone, that zone of 8 people or 18 people or 30 people where you're doing all the jobs, you're not getting paid enough, you're too busy to do anything, and you're stressed out of your mind. That happens when you fall into the gulf of trying to muscle your way through without leverage.
- MRMel Robbins
So there's so much that you just said that I wanna unpack, because I, when you started to say that you often make the mistake of hiring yourself for the cheapest rate to do the jobs, because you're now too busy, you've got the wrong clients, you're working too many hours, and you don't actually understand that your time is the most important thing, and you hear that phrase a lot, that, "I'm stuck working in the business-"
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... "versus on the business."
- SGSeth Godin
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
So if that's you, where you're listening, you're like, "I'm a realtor. I, I have an HVAC company. I am working 90-hour weeks, 'cause I am doing all the jobs that need to be done," that- I, for some reason, can't slow down to hire somebody to do, or the business isn't profitable enough for me to just focus on the thing I need to do and hire s- Let's talk about that moment.
- SGSeth Godin
Yeah. So your lack of discipline is 'cause of fear. It's hard to go develop new streams of business. It's hard to go call on people who need your services. It's hard to lean out of the boat and bring somebody else in to do the job. And it's very hard to have, if you're used to be a freelancer, to have someone to come in who's not as good and not as fast as you, right? So you're looking at them and say, "What are you talking about? I could do this so much faster and so much better. Get out of my way." Then you're a freelancer. Be a freelancer. It's fine. Every single time you are tempted to hire yourself to do a job, ask, "What am I hiding from?" 'Cause you're avoiding your real job, which is to build the assets that enable you to do none of the jobs.
- MRMel Robbins
What am I hiding from? I think that's a big excuse that people, like, get to, because i- if you start a business, and then it starts to get a little traction, and then you start to make some money, and next thing you know, you swell from hourly to, "Wow, I'm doing this full time," to, "Wow, I'm working all the time, but I'm not quite sure what I'm working on."
- SGSeth Godin
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And then you start using the excuse that I'm too busy doing all this other stuff to market the business, so the business isn't growing, and now I'm running to the store to buy paper for the printer that just ran out-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... because I'm also now on, you know, the, the, the computer trying to do posters to market the house that I'm selling, and then I gotta run over to the open hou- y- y-
- SGSeth Godin
It's thrilling. I started one of the first internet companies, Mel, and grew it to almost 100 people. 50 of them reported directly to me.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs] God.
- SGSeth Godin
It was thrilling. I would walk in at 8:00 in the morning, ba-bada, ba-bada, ba, and just nothing all day but interacting, answering questions, solving problems. And I was hiding from the important work of, "Where am I gonna find the big partnership that's gonna transform this institution?"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
And I'm really proud in the three months before we sold the company, I managed to make it so that there were whole parts of the operation that I didn't touch. That's how I grew up as an entrepreneur, 'cause that, in that moment, you're actually building an asset, which is, it's bigger than me. It would work without me here.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
'Cause I need to go be doing that other thing. So again, there's nothing wrong with the thrill and excitement of being a freelancer, and there's nothing wrong with being an entrepreneur. It's when you are confused that the stress kicks
- 45:30 – 49:46
How to Handle Feedback Without Losing Confidence
- SGSeth Godin
in.
- MRMel Robbins
If you are hearing complaints from a client, or you get pushback on pricing, or you, uh, are looking at the reviews of this product that you've launched, and you're looking for constructive feedback, but it's just starting to feel like, "Oh my God, everybody hates this," how do you process feedback and not hide in the sand?
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, how do you deal with this?
- SGSeth Godin
When someone criticizes your product, they are not criticizing you. They're saying, "Based on who I am and what I see, I don't want this." And if you get defensive and tell them they're wrong, you've helped no one. It doesn't matter what you want, and it doesn't matter what you like. It matters the customers you have chosen to serve, what is the story they tell themselves? And that leap of empathy is critical, 'cause you're gonna have to pick the customers who have a problem you wanna solve, and then they are right. As soon as you say, "You're wrong," they're not your customer anymore. In the digital world, there are things that I have offered that cost hundreds or thousands of dollars, and the first time someone says, "I don't like it," I'm not gonna persuade you you're wrong. I'm gonna ask you if you're enrolled in the journey.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
See if you wanna be enrolled in where we're going, and if not, "Thank you so much for telling me your truth. Here's everything back. I don't care that you're ripping me off, because you're not ripping me off 'cause you trusted me, and now I'm trusting you, and we can move on." "It's not for you" is a totally legitimate sentence.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that. If you're gonna launch something scary, so you're starting that side hustle, or you found a product that you just love and you would like to start a business selling it, you have really good advice about fear.
- SGSeth Godin
It's really easy to conflate our fear with the tasks to be done. "So my, my product isn't good enough. I can't ship it yet."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
Well, that's not really what you're afraid of. So here's an exercise that you should actually try in real life. Go to the bus station and bring with you a $10 bill, and walk up to somebody and say, "Will you give me a five for this $10 bill?" Now, it's really obvious that it's a l- real $10 bill. It's really obvious it's worth more than $5. This is very hard to do. This is scary to do. You feel totally out of your depth, but you're selling something that's obviously worth more than you're selling it for.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- SGSeth Godin
It turns out that feeling is why you're afraid. You're afraid of having a transaction with somebody who might say no. I've trained thousands of Girl Scouts how to sell Girl Scout cookies. They, uh, set up in front of a supermarket at a place I was staying for a week or two, and as everyone was walking into the supermarket, these nine-year-olds would yell, "Wanna buy some Girl Scout cookies?" And everyone's going to the supermarket, so they just would walk right by.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
And I talked to the group leader, and she said I could talk to everyone, and I said, "Look, ask a different question. As people walk by, say, 'What's your favorite kind of Girl Scout cookie?'"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm. So it was-
- SGSeth Godin
It turns out everyone has an answer to that question, and as soon as someone answers that question, now they're engaging with you Now they're over the hump, because before they were just hoping for, "Oh, people will walk by 'cause they don't really wanna interact." But now, that person's looking at a nine-year-old face-to-face. Of course they're gonna buy a box of cookies. Their sales went through the roof, 'cause they got over the hard part of the interaction. So we have the fear. We should name the fear. We cannot make it go away, but we can dance with it.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
Well, guess what? Transacting with strangers is going to trigger fear. It's the shadow. It's the same thing, two sides of the same coin. Do not deny it. Do not pretend it's gonna go away. It's real. And the hack that people have is, "Oh, I know, I'll just post a whole bunch of pictures on Instagram instead." That's not something you're afraid of, so you're gonna do it, and it's not gonna work.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm. The next topic I wanted to cover was this
- 49:46 – 55:07
Should You Turn Your Hobby Into a Business?
- MRMel Robbins
one: How do you know if it's a hobby versus a business?
- SGSeth Godin
Two parts. Number one, don't let a business ruin your hobby. This is really important. Don't let a business ruin your hobby. If your hobby is giving you joy, and you can afford it, it's your hobby. But, and, as soon as you turn it into a business, it's not yours anymore, it's the customer's. The customer doesn't buy your candles 'cause you want them to. They don't buy your granola 'cause you want them to. They buy it 'cause under the circumstances, it's their best option. Everyone always picks their best option. This is why selling to your friends is such a disaster, because now you're saying, "If you're my friend, you're gonna buy something that's not good for you." Don't do that. You wanna show up and say, "I make canoe paddles. I don't make a lot of canoe paddles. If this ca- paddle is worth a lot more than I'm selling it for, please buy it. But if it's not worth a lot more to you, don't buy it, 'cause it's my hobby, and I get that you want something I don't necessarily want." So we keep coming back to being of service. Other people don't want what you want, see what you see, believe what you believe. That's okay, 'cause you can't serve them unless you acknowledge that that's okay. That said, there's a huge opportunity for people who can bring passion and skill to a thing that most people can't do, and if your hobby lets you do that, that's fine. But don't turn it into a business for everyone, 'cause now you'll ruin it.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that distinction. It especially clicked for me when you said, "The second it becomes a business, it's no longer yours, it's your customer's." Wow. That makes a lot of sense. That's why selling real estate isn't really a hobby.
- SGSeth Godin
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
It's a business, because people aren't gonna work with you if you're the best option for helping them find a house-
- SGSeth Godin
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... say.
- SGSeth Godin
There was, there was a letter to the editor in The Times a few years ago. "Our close friends are selling their house, and they refuse to list it with my wife, and now I don't wanna speak to them anymore." Well, if that's how you're getting listings, you're not being of service. What you're saying is, "I'm gonna leverage my friendship to get listings." That's not how professionals do their work. You should be the obvious choice, or else they're not gonna pick you.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, a lo- I think there's a lot of people that are working hard trying to find their thing or the problem to solve, and there's that famous Jay-Z quote, "The genius thing that we did is we didn't quit." And I look at myself, and I look at the last 16 years and all the grueling stick-to-it-iveness and all of the things you do in the dark that nobody sees that are not easy and hard, but how do you know when to quit versus when to stick with it?
- SGSeth Godin
So I wrote the first book about quitting. It's called The Dip, and I was amazed at how many people felt like it touched them. You don't wear a tutu to work anymore, even though you took ballet lessons when you were six.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs] Yeah.
- SGSeth Godin
Right? And so we all quit stuff as we grow up.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh.
- SGSeth Godin
But along the way, quitting got to be viewed as a shameful act, that I'm a failure, I quit. That's a mistake, because there's huge rewards for being seen as the best in the world at what you do, right? That you're the best in the world at being Mel Robbins, you're the best in the world at The Mel Robbins Podcast, its category. But you couldn't do that if you hadn't quit being a lawyer.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
Right? And so what we wanna figure out is, is this thing we're doing, that we're persisting our way through, is there a dip, the hard part before it gets easier? This is what happens at the gym in February. Most people quit the gym in February, they joined in January, because that's when it gets hard. If you get through that dip, it's pretty clear that by June you've got six-pack abs.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- SGSeth Godin
So if you can see someone who's come before you, who's gotten through the dip, this is an example from real estate, right? There are some real estate brokers who make a fine living and aren't hustling their, out of their minds. But none of those people have been real estate brokers for one year. They made it through the hard part. But then there are other things we sign up for where either no one's ever gotten through this dip or there is no dip. It's just a slog. So you can't smoke your way through emphysema. It's just gonna keep getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. So what we need to do is be honest and say, "These costs I put into this business-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- SGSeth Godin
... my blood, my sweat, my tears, my time, my money, they're all gone. They're gone no matter what. So tomorrow, do I want to accept what that bought as a gift from my former self, or do I wanna say, 'No thank you, I'm gonna go build a new thing that's gonna resonate with the people who need it'"? And if you talk to people who made that smart decision of walking away from sunk costs, almost all of them will tell you they're glad they did.
- 55:07 – 1:01:16
The First Step to Start a Successful Business
- MRMel Robbins
If someone, uh, is sitting on a business idea, whether it's a side hustle or a new product or even a tough decision at work, what is one small step forward that they can take today?
- SGSeth Godin
A friend of mine taught me this great, simple hack. Write three completely different business plans. They all have to be three pages long each. Who's it for? What's it for? Who am I serving? How will I know if it's working? Three completely different ones, knowing that you're gonna randomly pick one as it, you know, the spinner s- points to one, and that's the one you have to do. So now instead of falling in love with one idea and defending it, you have A-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- SGSeth Godin
... B, or C. And that's the only way you're gonna fall out of love with A is to make B even better, and then C a completely different one. Because when you have to write three completely different plans, you're gonna think about it with your whole brain, not the defending part of it. And if you don't have time to write three different business plans, I don't think you have time to start a business.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that idea, because you're right. If you have one vision for how it's gonna go, you do get very rigid.
- SGSeth Godin
Or g- go even further. Three things that are, like, uh, I'm a architect for snowmen. I'm gonna build a snow shoveling business in Buffalo, New York, or I'm gonna import snow shovels. So the snow is involved in all three, but they're completely different scales, completely different kinds of investment, completely different. And you can even do it if you're starting a nonprofit, right? I wanna start a nonprofit that's gonna help single moms. I wanna start a nonprofit that's gonna help... And you can look w- where am I gonna get donors for this versus donors for that.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
But we, when we show up as a professional, we're saying to people, "I'd like you to trade money for something I'm gonna do for you." That's what professionals do. We show up even if we don't feel like it. We show up consistently. But if you're gonna show up as a professional, it should rhyme with how you wanna spend your day, but it's not about you. It's about the customer. And getting traction with customers, that is everything.
- MRMel Robbins
Perfectionism is everywhere. Like, we know it in our personal lives, but I think it can be very sneaky-
- SGSeth Godin
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... in business, whether you're the restaurant owner who's constantly tweaking the menu, and you have to get it just right, or you're an artist who has all this unfinished stuff, or you're a writer, and, you know, you're working on marketing copy, but you can't quite, like, it's not ready for the client yet, or you're a baker, and you're fussing over the flyer you've just never sent out. How do you spot it, and how do you get past it?
- SGSeth Godin
Who's it for, and what's it for? If what you're offering is gonna make someone's life better, how dare you hold it back?
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- SGSeth Godin
How dare you take this thing that isn't perfect but is meeting spec, that is good enough, how dare you hold it back and let that person flounder? Instead, you can show up, and we're not talking about for the world, for a few people, and say, "Here, I made this," and watch what happens. If it doesn't work, a few people discovered it didn't work. You're not doing surgery. It's okay. Go make it better. If it does work, go do the new thing. But the idea that we need to make something that's great greater, why? Who's it for? What's it for? If it's doing its job, right? So if you're busy tweaking the menu and tweaking the menu, and it's teenagers eating pizza in the suburbs, why? You didn't do anything to help their problem. You should be spending all your time installing a new kind of jukebox. Spend all your time organizing community bus trips, doing something that will actually help the people you're here to help.
- MRMel Robbins
Seth Godin, what are your parting words?
- SGSeth Godin
This is really hard to do by yourself-
- MRMel Robbins
It is
- SGSeth Godin
... and it's really important. So the answer is pretty simple. Find someone and do it with them. Talk about it. Put words on it, and tell yourself the truth. Make sure you're measuring the right things and ignoring everything else, and make a difference. Do work you're proud of for people who care.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, Seth Godin, I am so proud of the work that you do, and as you can tell, I care so deeply. Thank you for challenging us to raise the bar in ourselves, to do work that matters, to make a difference. I agree with you. Like, the days are long, but boy, the time is flying. And you always inspire me to do better and to think bigger and to be ruthlessly honest with myself. So thank you, thank you, thank you.
- SGSeth Godin
Back at you, Mel. Thank you for making a difference for so many millions of people.
- MRMel Robbins
Aw. And thank you. Thank you for finding the time and making the time to listen to something that is going to help you raise the bar, make better decisions, and as Seth likes to say, make a ruckus. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to tell you as your friend that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And absolutely everything that Seth taught to you today, that he implored you to consider, I know it will lead to a better life. All righty. I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank you for watching all the way to the end. Thank you for sharing this with people that you care about. Thank you for posting it in your LinkedIn feed, because what happens when you share something that's made a difference for you is you now are making a difference with somebody else. And when you do good, it feels so good. So thanks for that. And I know you're thinking, "All right. This was so good, Mel. What should I watch next?" Ooh, you're gonna love this one. This one's really good. And I'm gonna be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play. [outro music]
Episode duration: 1:01:16
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