The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Communicate With Confidence & Ease (From Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
145 min read · 28,726 words- 0:00 – 3:23
Meet the Guest
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(instrumental music plays) Every person you know, every relationship in your life, is a repeated sequence of conversations over time. So even if each of those conversations gets a little bit better, this short time that we have on the Earth, everything about it is gonna get better. Communication is everything. Everything. It's a series of tiny choices that you're making at every moment of every conversation.
- MRMel Robbins
And you have a four-part framework that helps us communicate more effectively. Can you tell me what the four-part framework is?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yes, very briefly. T stands for topics. A stands for asking. L is for levity. And K is for kindness. In my class, we do an exercise called never-ending follow-up questions.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-oh. I have a feel like we're about to do this.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Do you wanna try it?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
It's like we're all on these journeys looking for those magical moments of connection. And sometimes they happen. This is where real power and authority and influence come from. When we think of people who are charismatic and competent, this is what they're doing.
- MRMel Robbins
And that's what you're gonna teach us today?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
That's what I'm gonna teach you today.
- MRMel Robbins
Professor Alison Woodbrooks, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
I'm so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so excited to just dig into your research and learn everything that we can learn from this crazy popular class that you teach at Harvard Business School. But here's where I wanna start. There is a person listening right now who has no time.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And yet they found time and made time-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... to be with you and me right now. What can the person listening expect to change about their life if they take everything that you're about to teach us and they try it and they put it to use?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
If they really take what we talk about to heart, I think everything about their life could get better. Your love life, your relationship with your children, your relationship with your parents, your work, your relationships with your colleagues, what you're able to get done together, everything. Every person you know, every relationship in your life is a repeated sequence of conversations over time. So even if each of those conversations gets a little bit better, this short time that we have on the Earth, everything about it is gonna get better.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
You just said our whole life is gonna get better. Why does communication matter so much?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Communication is everything. Everything. So e- really, you can think of every relationship in your life as this repeated sequence of conversations and then if you zero in on each one of those conversations, it's a series of tiny choices that you're making at every moment of every conversation. And we're about to do it right now, Mel. Um, every moment you're making these choices, "What should we be talking about? What should I be asking the other person about? When should we be laughing? When should we be crying? Uh, when should I ask a question? When should I share something of myself?" We're making these tiny micro-decisions all the way along, and it's gonna determine what we're able to do together, what we're able to accomplish together-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... what we're able to learn about each other. How we talk is who we are and what we're able to do in the world.
- MRMel Robbins
I love how you framed it, because I was sitting here thinking, "I hope that she can help me not have so many regrets." 'Cause I think a lot of us leave a conversation like, "Ooh, I wish I ni- hadn't said that," or, "Oh, I wish I would've brought that up." But you're also talking about the power of forward
- 3:23 – 15:33
The Harvard Blueprint for Better Communication
- MRMel Robbins
momentum-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... by small shifts in these interactions that we have with people at work, in our love life, in our families, that can change everything. And you have earned the right to talk about this and to teach us this because you created and you teach a wildly popular and award-winning Harvard Business School course. It is called Talk, How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. And I'm not that good with grammar, being dyslexic, but I know that-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... gooder is probably not the right word, so, but I have a feeling it's intentional. Why the hell do you call it How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
I have to tell you, getting that g- that course title approved by the administrate- by the powers that be at Harvard is one of the greatest accomplishments of my professional life. It's sitting next to so many serious courses like Democracy in America and Capitalism in Today's Age. Um, it was intentional. It has a few different meanings. Of course it's grammatically incorrect, which drives some people up the wall, but there's two meanings. Uh, a huge part of the course is about balancing gravity and levity.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
And so I really wanted to signal that in the course title. We're gonna take conversation, we're gonna take our work very seriously, but in order to do that, we need to also maintain a spirit of play and fun. We have to have fun together or we aren't gonna feel safe, we're not gonna be able to make progress. Uh, the word gooder also is really rooted in this word good. Um, we're gonna work towards a goal of kindness. We wanna be good people when we're talking to other people, and hopefully a little bit gooder.
- MRMel Robbins
So, I wanna hear the story behind what made you wanna even create this course.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Because if you're really thinking about it, you've got Harvard Business School, 11% acceptance rate. Aren't the people going to Harvard Business School already good at communicating?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
I know. This is what everybody thinks. And, and in a way, yes, and in a way, no.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Uh, when I was originally recruited to be on the faculty at Harvard, I was recruited to teach a course on negotiation.
- MRMel Robbins
And by the way, the negotiation course at Harvard is like legendary.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah, some of the, some of my colleagues were sort of the founders of this framework that is now taught at every business school, at every law school. Um, it's really an incredible course.
- MRMel Robbins
Why were they recruiting you? I don't mean to be rude, but like what-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... were you doing at the time that made them go, "We gotta have Professor Brookes here"?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs) Um, well, I went to grad school. I went to grad school in a business school at Wharton in Philadelphia. I was obsessed with humans and people and figuring us all out, and I was a behavioral scientist. And in grad school, I spent my time studying emotions, the way that we feel on the inside, but also how we talk about our feelings with other people. And one of the places that I studied emotions was in negotiations. When you put people in these difficult situations, how do they feel? How are their feelings influencing their behavior and what they're able to do when they're negotiating?
- MRMel Robbins
Well, that's super cool. So this is your area of expertise. You get recruited to go to Harvard Business School to teach this course in negotiation. What happened?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah, so I was there. I taught negotiation for about four years. It's an amazing course. You spend time practicing in- doing these role plays of, okay, you're gonna be... You're the manager of a factory and you need to negotiate and procure some of these hard things. Or, oh, now you're gonna negotiate for a new house. Okay, let's do that. Let's go practice. You do these role plays.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You learn great frameworks about how to do it better.But even as I was teaching this great class, and I could feel that my students were getting so much value from it, I realized that we were missing something.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
When I think about negotiations, you realize, "How often am I doing? How often are you doing this?" Um, maybe you're negotiating for a new car, a new house, or an- a higher salary, I don't know, maybe once every two months, maybe.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
And what I started to realize is, like, wait, but we have to talk to people all day long every day, and I don't think of those as negotiations. That seems like a different nut to crack.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
And many of our students at Harvard are actually already quite strategic, so some of the lessons that we're teaching them in negotiation are pretty intuitive to them. We're taking strategic people and, like, teaching them to be even more strategic. And I was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I think what these people need might be, how do we teach them to be more engaging and fun and funny and interesting and dynamic and more empathic? Um, where's the course that can help them to do that?"
- 15:33 – 22:22
How to Always Have Something Interesting to Say
- MRMel Robbins
step.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So let's start with the first part, T.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
T. T is for topics. So topics are the things we talk about, right? If I asked you after this recording to look back and say, "What did we talk about?" You could- your brain would be really good at organizing and categorizing, "Oh, well, we- first, we talked about your course, and then we talked about topics and then this."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm. Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
So your bra- our brains are really good at chunking things into segments, into topics-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... which is so helpful in practice because it means that we can use that ability to steer topics while we're talking to each other.
- MRMel Robbins
But don't you have to be really good at communicating in order to steer the topics?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You do not have to be good.
- MRMel Robbins
You don't?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You just ha- you just have to know that it's happening. And so I think often when you say, like, top- what topic you're gonna talk about, people think about the opening topic, like, "Oh."
- MRMel Robbins
Well, let's sorta set the scene. How would you use the T, topic, part of the four-part framework to- Let's say you're going out on a date.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay? How do you use topic to help you be a better communicator?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Anyone who's going out on a date is already thinking about what they're gonna wear, how they're gonna do their hair, what makeup they're gonna put on, where they're gonna- what restaurant they're gonna meet at, what activity they're gonna do.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
We do all of this prep work ahead of time.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-huh.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Only 10% of people think about what they're gonna talk about once they get there. You're spending so much time showering and getting dressed and making the reservation at the restaurant. At the same time, you should be thinking about, "What are some things that'll be fun for us to talk about once we're together?" So topic prep.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
That's step number one, think ahead.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow, and you could do that for anything. You could do that if you're getting together with your family, so if you're tired of the same old, same old with your family-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... like, think about interesting things that you could talk about or questions to a- How do you even teach yourself to be good at topic prep if you've never even thought about this?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You just have to start doing it.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you mean?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
So a lot of people are very averse to topic prep, especially with people they know well. They feel like they shouldn't need to plan topics for someone that they're very close to. They'll just know what to talk about once they're together.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm guilty of that.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah, it's normal. A lot of people feel that way.
- 22:22 – 36:03
The Secret to Getting Better at Talking to People
- MRMel Robbins
better?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah. So A is for asking.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah. Ask more questions, ask better questions.
- MRMel Robbins
Now you're making me panic, because I don't know if my question's gonna be better. What is a better question?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You're already a great p- question asker. I mean, look, you've prepped topics.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
And you're asking so many questions. We're already off to a great start, Mel. Um, so what's so funny is, a pattern that you might pick up on here is that in every conversation, once you're in it, it's very overwhelming. There's a l- you're making tons of choices. You're trying to listen to what the other person is saying. You're trying to process it. You're trying to do this tiny creativity task of, "How do I come up with something interesting to say back to them?" That's really hard on your brain.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
That's a lot of cognitive effort. So anything you can do ahead of the conversation, like topic prep, is helpful. And any sort of trick that you can have during the conversation can also be helpful, and that's why asking questions is such a superpower. You don't need to have prepped it ahead of time. All you need to do is listen to what your partner is saying and ask about it. Ask more about it.
- MRMel Robbins
Huh. Well, how can asking better questions or asking more questions improve connection and make you better at communicating?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Our inability to understand other people's perspectives is a huge barrier to conflict management and connection. The antidote to that is question asking.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
It is a direct pathway to get what's in your head out of your head and share it with me. Um, in my class, we do an exercise called never-ending follow-up questions.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh-oh.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Do you wanna tr-
- MRMel Robbins
I have a feel like we're about to do this. Yes. Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Do you wanna try it?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Okay. I'll ask questions and you answer, and then maybe we can switch roles.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Okay? Um, Mel, what did you have for breakfast this morning?
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, a smoothie.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Oh, what was in your smoothie?
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, it was this protein powder and a little bit of honey and two lemons that we squeeze.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
And then some water, and then zip, zip it up, and then slurp it down.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
That sounds so healthy. If you had your dream breakfast, would it be this protein smoothie? What would be in your dream breakfast?
- MRMel Robbins
Um, it depends on the day.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Mm-hmm.
- 36:03 – 42:44
How to Make Conversations More Fun and Less Awkward
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
- MRMel Robbins
It's so true. So the four-part framework of TALK, what is L?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
L is levity, Mel. Thank goodness. It's levity, and levity includes moments of humor, but also unfunny moments of warmth. And levity is the antidote for boredom.
- MRMel Robbins
Why is humor such a powerful tool if you wanna be better at communicating?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah. Listen, when we think of conversations that have gone off the rails or have not gone well, it's very easy to think of conversations that seemed angry or hostile, or there was conflict or disagreement.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Because it's so obvious.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Like you're yelling at each other, you're arguing.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Yeah.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
But what is a quieter killer of conversation, and probably more common than conflict, is boredom and disengagement. We're not interested in what we're saying to each other. And as soon as either person becomes disinterested, you can't have that good connection. You can't make progress anymore. And levity, these fleeting moments of sparkle and fizz, they pull us back in. They- they fix the boredom.
- MRMel Robbins
Sparkle and fizz.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
How do you create that? Because you have some really interesting research about how making fun of yourself ...... really is a powerful thing to do. Can you, can you share a bit of this research for us?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yes, yes. So, this is something people think about all the time. Should I re- should I make fun of myself? Will that make things feel more fun and funny? Um, so you can do it in a way, you can deliver it in a way that it's like self-deprecating humor. You're making fun of yourself. You can also do it in a way that's not funny at all, but you're sharing your whole self, right? You're not just talking about your successes, but also, uh, the failures and struggles that you encountered on your pathway to success. This is a particularly effective strategy for people who already have high status, who are powerful, who are respected, who are known as competent, for leaders. It's a way to say to everybody, "Hey, look, I'm like you too. I'm a human being. I'm, I don't do this thing right. Here's some negative feedback that I got on my way to success." Um, it's so, so powerful. It is riskier for people who are low status to use self-deprecating humor, or to really-
- MRMel Robbins
Why?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... or to reveal their failures. When you're low status, you have a narrower range of options available to you that will be seen. Eh, eh, people might actually start to question your competence.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
And that's why f- being low status feels so limiting and so constraining.
- MRMel Robbins
So, how do you, as a Harvard Business School professor, define low status?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
'Cause I, I would imagine if we cracked open people's heads, a lot of people are so punishing to themselves-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Totally.
- MRMel Robbins
... that they believe that they have a low status based on self-doubt, but what are you talking about?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
So, status for scholars i- is defined as liking and respect and prestige in the eyes of other people.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Okay? So, it's liking and d- do people respect me? There's really good news here, Mel-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... which is every group has a sort of status hierarchy, okay? People pretty easily know who's high status, who's low status, who's in the middle, but the good news is it changes much more frequently than you think. It changes not only from one conversation or one place to the next, it changes from one topic to the next. So, imagine you're in a group. You're having a meeting.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- 42:44 – 46:41
Why Being Kind Makes You a Better Communicator
- MRMel Robbins
love that. So, what is the fourth element of your four-part framework for better communication?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
The fourth part is K for kindness, and it's really this virtue that we all learn as kids, that we should all be kind. And I don't know, I don't know about you, Mel, I, I spent my whole life really think, like, what do kind people do? Day-to-day, moment to moment, what are they thinking about? What are they saying? How are they behaving? And I think one of the great privileges of this new emerging science of conversation is we're figuring it out.... what kind people who really care about others, w- how they communicate with the people around them. So we attack this in a very concrete way.
- MRMel Robbins
So what do they do?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah. The first part is using respectful language, right? So as soon as you cross over into that zone where people are feeling hurt, or harmed, or othered, or excluded, or bullied-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... you have lost this kindness goal.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You've moved beyond it. It's gone. And the second piece, again, is this, uh, responsive listening, so putting in the effort to hear other people, caring about what they're sharing with you, and showing that you're listening to them with your words and with your non-verbals.
- MRMel Robbins
So how can you use this framework with a colleague?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs) Every time, a- all the time. I mean, you can use it over email, over text, and face-to-face. Every time you interact with a colleague, you should be thinking, "What topics are valuable to them? How can I bring value to them? What th- what are they gonna find interesting and exciting?" If you don't know ahead of time, you can just ask them. "What are you excited about lately? How can I be helpful? What can I do? Uh, what's going on? What are you struggling with right now that I might be able to help with," right? It's just incredible.
- MRMel Robbins
How do you use the kindness part with your partner?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Hmm. Oh my gosh. The thing that makes kindness so hard is that it is effortful, and it's constant. We have to battle against all of these other things that are draining our resources, especially with someone you live with, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You're, you see them all the time. And so it's, it's a big ask to say, "W- we'll be kind all the time to this person, put in all of this effort all the time." But I think trying to get over our self-centered, our self-focus and really trying to understand what our partner cares about, figure out what they need, whether it's just a hug, or it's just a cup of coffee, um, figure out what they need and help them get it.
- MRMel Robbins
So if somebody is listening right now, and they're in a relationship where the communication isn't working.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
You're frustrated. You misunderstand each other. Everything becomes some stupid thing. What is your advice based on your research on the science of communication?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah, it sounds like that kind of relationship sounds like you're stuck in a bad equilibrium, a bad sort of-
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
So you're stuck in the ha- you've developed habits in a specific relationship that aren't working for you.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Right? And you, and then every time you see that person, you might fall back into that same habits where you're getting defensive, you're lashing out, you're making accusations. Rather than these ideals that we're trying to live up to of, like, "I wanna be interested in you, I wanna figure out your needs and help you," you've fallen into the opposite.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Right? So there's a couple of things. One is, uh, we talk a lot about the power of apologies. Um, and, and this would be an example when you could say, "It seems like we've really fallen into some bad habits where we're really getting defensive or lashing out and arguing all the time. What would it take for us to sort of shift that? How can we get into a different pattern? How can we change our habits with each other?" It's gonna require that both people buy into it-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... because conversation is co-constructed. It means that they have to buy in, you have to buy in, and you both have to try. And if you can't shift out of that equilibrium, that's often when, you know, relationships part ways.
- MRMel Robbins
Of course-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... 'cause why would you wanna be in a relationship where-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
It's not rewarding.
- 46:41 – 52:01
How to Master Small Talk and Talk to Anyone
- MRMel Robbins
you're both not working on it. I wanna go into some of the most asked questions on a communication. I mean, these are the things that people write in about. They go crazy viral, and they wanna know. Okay?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So small talk-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... is so draining.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Everybody hates it. What does your research have to say about small talk and why it matters?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
For all of the people who hate small talk, you're right. It sucks. It's-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... it's shallow. It's meaningless. It feels like there's this alarm bell going off on your mind of like, "Why can't we get past this? Why can't we get to the real stuff? I want, we all want the real stuff. How can I get there?" But also, you cannot avoid small talk. It's how every conversation starts between strangers, between people who haven't seen each other in a while. Even people who've seen each other earlier in the day, you usually start, when you see them at night and say, "How was your day?"
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
It is a well-worn social ritual, and it's important because it's the place where we search for better things.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Okay? It's the, it's the easy-
- MRMel Robbins
It's the warm-up.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
It's the warm-up. It's the, it's where we are, it's the pregame, right? It's the, it's the warm-up, and we're searching for ways to get to more meaningful talk. We talk about, in, in my course and in my book, we talk about a topic pyramid, okay? The topic pyramid has three layers.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
The bottom layer is small talk topics. These are topics you can talk about with anyone. It's the weather, it's the weekend, whatever you're eating, easy stuff that you could talk about with anybody.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
They're not evil. They're not bad. They are often unrewarding, but they're a place where you are, should be searching to climb the pyramid to the second tier, which is more tailored talk. It's more, it can be, include more disclosure about your own life. It can be more personalized. It might just be a topic you're excited about, has nothing about, you know, sharing about your life. You're just, some- it's something your partner's really jazzed about.
- MRMel Robbins
So this, this second layer of the pyramid is where your topic preparation comes in-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
... and asking questions come in.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You could prep small talk topics too that could, that are more likely to be launchpads to the second lay- so a question like, "Mel, what are you good at that you really hate doing?"
- MRMel Robbins
Ugh.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Picking up the dog poop.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah, exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Hate it.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs) But I bet you're great at it. I mean, how-
- 52:01 – 59:03
What to Do When Someone Talks Over You
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
I answer, which is-
- MRMel Robbins
Sure.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... when you're thinking of people dominating a conversation, it's almost always in a group. Are you imagining a group?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, I guess I am 'cause I'm imagining being at, like, a cocktail party.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And people are kinda standing in a little bit of a circle.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Maybe a work meeting?
- MRMel Robbins
Or a work meeting.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yep.
- MRMel Robbins
And, you know, of course, my fear is that most people that I know think it's me.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
I was gonna say, have you been guilty of this yourself?
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, in the past? Of course. When I've had too much to drink, definitely.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs) .
- MRMel Robbins
Um, I work hard at listening at work rather than talking.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
That's right. And it is hard work, especially for someone who has a lot to say, has a lot of ideas, who is high status that, or is in the habit of sharing, uh, what's on their mind. So, I ask you this question because when we think of dominating airtime, it's almost always in a group.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
When you are in a one-on-one conversation, we have easier tools to interrupt someone or to sort of plow over them and, or even a l- little bit signal that they're talking too much, right? It's easier. In a group, it's maddening. You have way less control over stopping someone, and it's really hard for high-status people to give other people that space. I, too, have to work very hard to not talk too much in a group setting. I got a lot to say and a lot of energy, right? And that takes effort, and it's like a skill unto itself to give other people that space.
- MRMel Robbins
So, let's say that you're going to a family gathering-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and there's a particular person-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... in your family-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... who just holds court.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Nobody can get in a word edgewise.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
We all know, we all know Uncle Paulie. Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
So, based on your research, Professor Brooks, what do you do?
- 59:03 – 1:12:49
How to Handle Hurtful Comments and Difficult Conversations
- MRMel Robbins
Um, Professor Brooks, what are some strategies you can use based on your research if somebody belittles you?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Oh.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, whether it's, like, your mom commenting on your weight, or, "I'm the primary breadwinner, and there are these little digs that-"
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
"... family members make at my husband Chris." Like, what is the response to belittlement?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
You know what? It's- it, it's so often that the people we love the most and are closest to are the victims of these little moments of belittlement-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... because they kinda leak out. Usually, when someone is making a belittling comment, it's really not about whatever they're talking about. It's about something deeper that they're ... It's, uh, it's really- it's usually about them, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
That they're feeling insecure about-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... something and they're taking it out on you.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
This is true of all moments of difficulty in conversation is-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
For whatever reason, we have the tendency to have these moments that shoot down to these hurtful parts of our identities. When I used to teach negotiation, it was so ... You know, when you're negotiating for a house, it's so obviously fraught and hard, but what I find so much more interesting are these little moments in conversations that should be easy and fun. And all of a sudden, someone makes a little belittling comment and you're like, "Whoa. I thought this was supposed to be fun and easy and sort of routine. What's going on here?" That can shoot down to our identities, uh, this sort of hot magma at the core of who we are in hurtful ways. And in those moments, we tend to be very defensive.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, or quiet.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Quiet.
- MRMel Robbins
We feel silenced.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Attacked. So there's a really exciting emerging science of receptiveness here that can help us. Um, scientists Hannah Collins, uh, Mike Yeomans, Julia Minson have studied what good conversationalists, kind people, how they manage these moments when all of a sudden things get heated-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
... for whatever reason.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you do?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Um, and they looked at the language that people use, uh, to confront this, and there's a really concrete recipe of being receptive to an opposing viewpoint that can help so that the conversation doesn't escalate and get overheated in that moment. And it's quite a, a skill set to develop. It makes me feel more confident to engage.
- MRMel Robbins
What is it?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
So the first piece is acknowledgment, saying, "I think I heard you say here ... What I'm hearing is," right? So going back to this acknowledgment. Affirmation. "It makes sense that you would feel that way, like maybe sometimes I'm not doing enough. It makes sense that you feel that way, but you saying that also makes me feel a certain way." But affirming their feelings before you go on to disagree with them.
- MRMel Robbins
And say, "You're a piece of shit for saying that." No, you're not supposed to say that part?
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
(laughs) No, I mean, I think you can even say that. Like, it makes sense that you feel that way, and also it's not a particularly kind. You can see why I would be upset by it. It both can be true, right? It makes sense that you feel this way. It makes sense that you're stressed or tired, and you said something that you probably wouldn't say if you were not stressed or tired. That all makes sense. You're, I realize you're a human being, and I love and respect you. But also, what you just said was hurtful to me. If you can come with that mindset, so acknowledgment, affirmation, um, positive framing. There are words that they call, um, oh, gosh, it's like dogmatic or explaining words, so words like because and therefore are very hard to be on the receiving end of, that are expressed too much certainty. Like, "You're wrong because of this, therefore I'm not talking to you anymore." Those are escalation words. They're expressing too much certainty, too much sort of righteousness, and they're very hard to hear on the other end. There's a strategy that I like to use that combines all of these receptiveness, all the receptiveness language, and that's dividing yourself into multiple parts in the moment.
- MRMel Robbins
Let me give an example-
- ABAlison Wood Brooks
Yeah.
Episode duration: 1:12:49
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode 5yCqhY1D-VE
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome