Skip to content
The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Mel Robbins Podcast

How to Protect Your Focus, Motivation, & Mental Health: The $17.1 Billion Wake-Up Call

This is one of the most eye-opening conversations Mel has had on the podcast. Today, Dr. Jonathan Haidt joins Mel to explain what constant quick dopamine is doing to attention, motivation, confidence, and mental health - and why the impact looks very different in boys than it does in girls. This conversation could not be more timely. Meta recently agreed to a landmark $17.1 billion settlement in a major case accusing the company of endangering children by designing its platforms to be addictive to kids and teens. And, today, you’re going to hear from one of the experts, Dr. Haidt, whose groundbreaking research helped shape that case. Like Mel, you may have heard about how deeply social media has impacted girls - intensifying anxiety, social comparison, sexualization, and self-harm. But Dr. Haidt, a social psychologist, professor at NYU Stern, and author of the #1 New York Times bestseller The Anxious Generation, has a new warning: boys are being affected in a very different way. Stop and think about what boys have sitting in their pockets all day long: a video game arcade, an endless stream of short-form videos, sports betting, and instant access to pornography. Dr. Haidt says to think of it like this: Imagine a boy or man you love sitting at the bottom of an ocean while thousands of fishing hooks drop down around him. Every hook is baited with something engineered to grab his attention. A new video. Another level. A shocking image. A notification. A chance to win. Over time, that constant stimulation can make ordinary life feel painfully slow. And this isn’t just about young people. If you have a son, brother, boyfriend, husband, or young man in your life who seems stuck, checked out, or like he’s lost his drive, you need to hear this conversation. Most importantly, Dr. Haid, gives you a way forward. He is here not only to educate you but also to share the specific changes you and the people you love can make - starting right now - to take back your attention, motivation, and focus. In this episode, you’ll learn: -Why young men can start withdrawing from school, friendships, dating, work, and real-world goals -What social media does to girls during puberty -Why shallow online connection is replacing deeper friendships -Why Dr. Haidt recommends no social media until 16 -The household rules he recommends for sleep, screens, and bedrooms -Why long-form stories are different from endless short-form content -How to help a struggling young man change without shaming him -Why small changes, social support, exercise, and real-world activities can help rebuild motivation -What research shows can happen after just one to two weeks of reducing social media use If you’re seeing someone you love lose motivation, withdraw, or struggle with social comparison or insecurity - or if you’re noticing any of this in yourself - this conversation could change everything. Anyone who follows the two-week protocol Dr. Haidt shares today can begin retraining their brain and improving their motivation and focus. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-434/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Meet the Guest 04:34 Why Social Media Makes You Feel Lonely 08:33 How Social Media Affects Boys and Girls 10:43 Why Social Media Is So Addictive 14:06 What Age Should Kids Get Social Media? 21:44 Why Your Son Can’t Put His Phone Down 26:09 Why Your Kids Struggle to Focus 30:13 How to Stop Wasting Hours on Your Phone 33:20 Can You Reverse a Phone Addiction? 41:01 5 Phone Rules Every Parent Should Set 46:02 What Happens When You Quit Social Media? 49:26 How to Take Control of Your Attention — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Jonathan Haidtguest
Sep 14, 202653mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:34

    Meet the Guest

    1. MR

      Today, on The Mel Robbins Podcast, Dr. Jonathan Haidt, the world's leading researcher on how social media and quick dopamine is devastating to mental health

    2. JH

      The average American teen now spends five hours a day on social media, mostly watching short videos. I think 40% of American two-year-olds have their own iPad

    3. MR

      With a new warning about how it impacts boys

    4. JH

      Boys now have a slot machine, a porn theater, a video game parlor. They have all of this stuff in their pocket with them all the time

    5. MR

      Meta has agreed to pay up to $17 billion in damages due to the claims that Facebook and Instagram have harmed the mental health of young people

    6. JH

      The biggest damage is the destruction of the human ability to pay attention, to focus, and to pursue goals

    7. MR

      Dr. Haidt is here to teach you how to get your life back right now

    8. JH

      If you're addicted to something, and you stop doing it, for the first few days, it actually can be painful. But if you stick with it, within a week or two, your life comes back

    9. MR

      Jonathan Haidt, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast

    10. JH

      Mel Robbins, it is great to be here, and of course, one always says that. But the welcome that your team gave me, I have never seen anything like it.

    11. MR

      [laughs]

    12. JH

      So it's a real pleasure to be here

    13. MR

      Well, we are very, very excited that you made the time to come to Boston. I have had you on a list of people I wanna sit down with for well over a year. And I wanna start out by talking about what could change about my life-

    14. JH

      Mm

    15. MR

      ... or about my kids' lives, or the lives of some of the youngsters that I care about, if I really take to heart everything that you're about to teach us and share with us about this shocking research, and I apply it to my life

    16. JH

      Mm-hmm. So what, what we'll be talking about here is how to regain your attention, how to improve your habits, especially your digital habits. And if you do this, then I can, I can offer you, the, the listener, the viewer, the same thing that I offer my students at New York University. I teach a course called Flourishing, and I say, "If you stay with the program, if you make these changes to your habits, by the end of the course, you will become smarter, stronger emotionally, and more sociable. And if you become smarter, stronger, and more sociable, then you will, on average, be more successful in love, broadly construed, and in work." And love and work is the magic formula in psychology for happiness and flourishing, going all the way back to Sigmund Freud. So if you are more successful in love and in work, then I guarantee you, you will be happier

    17. MR

      I feel like this is one of these topics that makes everybody anxious. The title of your blockbuster bestseller and all this research, The Anxious Generation, is the right title because I know we have a sense that there is something deeply wrong

    18. JH

      Yeah, that's right. That's right

    19. MR

      And that we are losing parts of ourselves. We are losing parts of our connection to other people. We've all had that experience of just walking down the street, and nobody's talking to anybody. Everybody's staring at their phones. You see families sitting out at a restaurant. Everybody's on a device. And my heart quietly breaks, and I also feel this deep sense of panic. And so are there things that we're gonna learn today that may give us a sense of control back or, like, exactly what to do? Because it almost feels like this is one of those topics that the genie's already out of the bottle-

    20. JH

      Mm-hmm

    21. MR

      ... and we're all screwed

    22. JH

      Yeah. Um, so something big changed between 2010 and 2015. I've called it The Great Rewiring of Childhood, and you and I are gonna talk about that. What happened when everybody switched over from having flip phones or basic phones, you know, the Millennials went through puberty with the Motorola Razr, to by 2015, everyone has a smartphone. We've gotta get to the point where we can return our phones to being tools that we use when we wanna do something. You take it out. The smartphone used to be a Swiss Army knife. Even had flashlight and maps, like, it was amazing. We've gotta get back to where it's a tool that you use when you want something, as opposed to a thing that's dominating, controlling your life, and sen- and, and altering your consciousness and telling you what you need to do now and when. So, um, and it's, it, it takes some work. I'm not gonna say it's easy. But it's actually pretty simple. Like, the things you need to do aren't, aren't complicated.

    23. MR

      Okay

    24. JH

      With a little practice, you really can regain control of your attention, and then you'll regain control of your life

    25. MR

      I would love to start with just really digging into your research in this blockbuster book, The Anxious Generation.

  2. 4:34 – 8:33

    Why Social Media Makes You Feel Lonely

    1. MR

      What effect does living a life where you're constantly connected-

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm

    3. MR

      ... have on you as a human being?

    4. JH

      Yeah. So the most important component of happiness, uh, research and positive psychology has shown this for decades, the most important thing is relationships and relatedness. Uh, we humans are ultra-social creatures. Uh, we have intense social needs. We need to have close relationships, uh, supportive relationships in our family, and then as kids, especially as they reach adolescence, the div- the plan is they kinda move out. They, they stop being y- under your tutelage, under your protection, and they need to begin creating their own life, and that means that they need to make it in the world of prestige of their peers. So that's always been the case, and that's why, I don't wh- what it was like for you, I hated seventh grade.

    5. MR

      [laughs]

    6. JH

      Middle school was the worst. Like, I generally liked school. But middle school was horrible. And, you know, suddenly you realize, like, wait, how I look, uh, you know, suddenly, it suddenly matters so much. So middle school is a very, very difficult time. It always is. You can't remove that. Um, but, um, if now suddenly everyone is online, and everyone is connected, and the companies tell us, "Oh, it's how you make connections. It helps kids, you know, get together." But what kids need is a few close friends. And, and early on, what we were told was, "Oh, this is, uh, you know, it le- lets them, you know, uh, uh, have an Instagram page. They'll have all these friends. They'll have all these followers." Um, but it turns out that that doesn't bring you closer to your friends.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. JH

      It replaces them. Because the average American teen now spends five hours a day on social media, mostly watching short videos. They're not even liking each other's posts. It's mostly short videos. Um, these five hours a day pushes out everything else, time with friends, sleep, sunshine, reading books. You know, if you, if you have kids, imagine taking five hours out of their day and saying, "You know, you have to go do something for five hours a day. Now get everything else done." Everything else is gonna suffer. Um, and that's what these devices did. When the kids got on social media, it severely damaged their relationships because it gave them quantity at the expense of quality.

    9. MR

      Hmm.

    10. JH

      They now had hundreds of friends that they never saw. And instantly-

    11. MR

      Well, I also think it's stunning that the five hours is spent watching short-form, it's not even five hours spent chatting with friends-

    12. JH

      That's right

    13. MR

      ... or talking to friends or-

    14. JH

      That's right

    15. MR

      ... doing something with friends.

    16. JH

      That's right. So this is something very important for people to understand. Um, social media used to be social. Social media used to actually be called social networking systems. That was what we called them around 2006 to '10, social networking systems. Facebook was a social networking system. You put up your page, you've got your information, maybe your photographs, and you can go check out your friend's page, and they can check out yours. That's perfectly healthy. There's no problem with that.

    17. MR

      And it was also very static.

    18. JH

      Yeah, static.

    19. MR

      It was sort of like looking at a flyer.

    20. JH

      Yeah, that's right. It was not addictive. There was no dopamine issue.

    21. MR

      No.

    22. JH

      It was, it connected people, and it let you catch up with your friends very quickly.

    23. MR

      Yes.

    24. JH

      So a lot of things changed. So the iPhone comes out in 2007.

    25. MR

      Okay.

    26. JH

      Um, but very few kids have one, and there's no App Store, no push notifications. Um, 2008, you begin to get the App Store and push notifications. 2009, you get the share button, the retweet button. So now, and then you get newsfeed in this period also. So instead of going to check out your friend's page, now suddenly it's your newsfeed, and it's not just updates from your friends, it's news updates, it's commentary, it's culture war stuff. It's, "Isn't he stupid?" It's, "Can you believe those Democrats, those Republicans?" Um, so now you're getting push notifications about things that aren't your friends, uh, and this begins to sort of ramp up our, our, you know, our, the, the overstimulation, the, the anxiety. But you can only do Facebook when you sit down at your computer.

    27. MR

      Hmm.

    28. JH

      And if you're a teen, you may have to sit down at your parents' computer, so nobody is on for five hours a day. So that's where we are in 2008, '9, '10. 2010, the iPhone, I think the 5, has the, uh, first iPhone with a front-facing camera. That's also the year Instagram comes out, but it's a photography site. Teens aren't on it.

  3. 8:33 – 10:43

    How Social Media Affects Boys and Girls

    1. JH

      Um, by 2012, now lots of teens are getting an iPhone, whatever, 6, whatever it was by then, an iPhone with a front-facing camera and an Instagram account because Facebook buys Instagram in 2012, and that's when all the girls rush onto Instagram. And so 2012 is the pivotal year for girls especially. For boys, the curve's a little more curvilinear. They're not, there's not such a sharp elbow for boys at 2012. For girls, it's very sharp, 2012. So imagine being a, a 12 or 13-year-old girl in 2010 versus 2015. You're always concerned about your status, your reputation, your looks with the small group that you're talking to. And now suddenly, by 2015, everyone is talking about your looks. Everyone is commenting on the dress you wore. Everyone's commenting on your skin, your breasts, your hair, everything. Um, this is horrible for girls. This is a horrible way to put girls through puberty, so that's why we see girls suffering immediately. And that was what my early research was on. It was really clear. Social media, especially Instagram, is harmful for girls, especially anxiety, depression. And for older Gen Z, which is those born 1996, 7, 8, 9, I think that's the main story. And it looks like the boys aren't doing so bad. Okay, but now let's trace it forward a bit more, 'cause everything changes. By 2015, now the video games are moving onto the phone, and now boys get their quick dopamine hits. They begin to get addicted to their phones for video games. Now that everyone has high-speed internet, now porn, boys can watch porn anywhere, any time, and so a lot more boys are getting addicted to porn, which makes it much harder for them to ever talk to a girl or flirt with a girl or seduce a girl or get a girlfriend. For boys, the thing to keep your eye on isn't necessarily social media. It's quick dopamine. Boys now have a slot machine, a porn theater, a video game parlor. They have all of this stuff in their pocket with them all the time. And you're a boy, it's gonna be just lots and lots of stimulation, which is gonna make it very hard for you to ever pay attention. Boys l- uh, especially lose executive function, the ability to make a plan and follow it. Um, for girls, it's constant social comparison. It's constant stuff about clothing, looks, makeup, fo- you know, was it Get Ready With Me videos that the girls watch.

    2. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    3. JH

      Um, so it is having a different effect on boys and girls, but they end up in the same pit of

  4. 10:43 – 14:06

    Why Social Media Is So Addictive

    1. JH

      despair.

    2. MR

      And why is it important to understand that it's a slot machine? So could you explain-

    3. JH

      Mm-hmm

    4. MR

      ... to the person listening-

    5. JH

      Mm-hmm

    6. MR

      ... 'cause I think we know, we know from a common sense standpoint that slot machines are not a good thing.

    7. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MR

      They're designed to keep you pulling-

    9. JH

      Yeah

    10. MR

      ... the lever. If you're an adult, you've probably walked through a casino at some point.

    11. JH

      Yeah, you've seen the zombies.

    12. MR

      You see people zoned out-

    13. JH

      The zombies, yep

    14. MR

      ... pulling the slot machine.

    15. JH

      Exactly.

    16. MR

      But can you explain to the person who's listening, who's never heard this explained to them-

    17. JH

      Mm-hmm

    18. MR

      ... why it's important to understand that it's the same way a slot machine is designed?

    19. JH

      Mm-hmm, that's right. So the original internet was wide open. It was very difficult to make money on it. People put things up. But once you get push notifications, the App Store, all that stuff, a lot of companies develop what's called an advertising-based business model. They make their money from showing you ads. And a company, like Facebook was the first to really pioneer this, if they make money from showing you ads, then they'll make more money if they show you more ads to keep you on longer and keep you more intense. And so the business incentive for them was to figure out how to keep everyone on longer, and they told their engineers that. They said, "You know, your bonus will depend in part on you raising, increasing the engagement numbers," which means time spent on the device.

    20. MR

      And you know this-

    21. JH

      Yeah

    22. MR

      ... because you're involved with class action lawsuits now.

    23. JH

      Mm-hmm, that's right.

    24. MR

      And so we have the evidence-

    25. JH

      That's right

    26. MR

      ... that these are designed in a way to keep you and your kids on them longer.

    27. JH

      Mm-hmm, that's right. So, uh, first, so I know people who worked at Facebook, and, and they told me about the bonus structure. Uh, but because so many parents are suing Face-- M- Meta, in the course of the lawsuits, we have a process of discovery. The attorneys can request documents. Also, there are whistleblowers, like Frances Haugen, who brought out thousands of screenshots of internal documents. And so here, I'll just read a couple. So here's a discussion, a discussion among two researchers at Instagram. Um, one of them has a PhD in, uh, in neuroscience. Uh, and he says, um, "It seems clear from what's presented here," in this internal report, "that some of our users are addicted to our products, and I worry that driving sessions incentivizes us to make our product more addictive without providing much more value. How to keep someone returning over and over to the same behavior each day? Intermittent rewards are most effective. Think slot machines."

    28. MR

      Now, I wanna just make sure that as you're listening or watching, you understand what that means for you and me. One of the reasons why you catch yourself, and it's not your fault-

    29. JH

      Mm-hmm

    30. MR

      ... sitting on your phone for two or three hours when you didn't mean to.

  5. 14:06 – 21:44

    What Age Should Kids Get Social Media?

    1. JH

      right.

    2. MR

      At the end of the day, the device is neutral.

    3. JH

      That's right.

    4. MR

      It's the software that's on the device-

    5. JH

      Mm-hmm

    6. MR

      ... and the apps in particular, and the social media platforms, and the shopping-

    7. JH

      Mm-hmm

    8. MR

      ...ification of social media that has led to all of this addictive behavior.

    9. JH

      Exactly. So it's gonna devastate the deep connections. They're not gonna have the deep connections. They're gonna have lots of shallow connections. That's really bad, especially for girls. That's one.

    10. MR

      Why is it really bad for girls to have shallow connections?

    11. JH

      Um, boys are, boys are developing friendships as, as my friend Richard Reeves says. He, he runs the American Institute for Boys and Men. He says, "Girls like to, like to connect face-to-face. Boys like to connect shoulder-to-shoulder," like we're doing something together. We're hiking, we're building something. We're whatever. Um, there's also an enormous difference between connecting and performing, and there are times when kids need to learn how to boast, how to impress others. Um, but it shouldn't be most of the time, and it shouldn't be when they're with their friends. And as soon as girls get social media, and now everything's about their profile and who liked them and why did he like her post, but he didn't like my post, and all the stuff that girls do a lot more than boys about, like, the, you know, the going further on why they thought that or did that.

    12. MR

      Hmm.

    13. JH

      Um, it traps them into just, uh, an endless loop of that kind of thinking, um, as opposed to just connecting and having fun and sharing secrets with a friend. Um, then there's the sexualization. If you just think about what healthy development is for a girl, the, the British have a phrase, "Don't put your daughter on the stage, Mr. Worthington." It's from, like, an, an old play or something, but, you know, you don't wanna raise a girl on a stage. That would be devastating to her because what matters is her looks. The world judges her for her looks, and that's what she cares about. Social media's just devastating for all the things girls need to do to turn into competent, happy women. So that's why, that's why my group says, we say very clearly in the book, no social media till 16.

    14. MR

      Why is the internet a uniquely dangerous place for a young person to be wandering around unprotected?

    15. JH

      So, uh, it's kind of insane to put children in with anonymous adults. I mean, imagine if there was some place where you could just drop your kids off and they're gonna interact with all kinds of men, um, who are wearing masks, and we never know who they are. That's completely insane, but that's what happens on a lot of platforms, even Roblox. Uh, you know, Roblox is a virtual space where people wander around, they interact with other people. Some of them are men who want sex. So once you get i- into any of these platforms that allow communication among strangers, this is a sick thing to do to children, but it's common. We've just accepted it as just common. And where did all the sexual predators go? If you hang out at a park, you-- the poli-- you know, people report you, you'll get arrested. So they all went-- they all moved to Instagram and a few other platforms. Um, so re- research done by, um, Arturo Bejar, was a Facebook employee. He was at work for Instagram. Um, and his daughter, his 15-year-old daughter, created an Instagram page because the two of them enjoyed restoring classic cars, and she kept getting hit on by men showing creepy things. 15-year-old girl, photographs of her fixing cars, like, she has to go through this? And so Arturo says, "I wonder how common this is." And he's able to do research, and he finds that 15% of, I think it was 14 to 16-year-old teens, b- and here boys and girls were getting it equally. He said 15% of them get an inappropriate approach from a stranger every week.

    16. MR

      Every week?

    17. JH

      Every week. If you just look, in the past week-- 'cause the question he asked was in the past week-

    18. MR

      And what year was this?

    19. JH

      This was around 2018, 2017.

    20. MR

      So this was eight years ago?

    21. JH

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      It was 15%?

    23. JH

      Yes. So he said-- So, so his questions were, "In the past week, has this happened to you?" And one of them was an inappropriate approach from a stranger has made you feel uncomfort-- something like that. Um, and so it is just ubiquitous. Of course, look, these-- there are, you know, most men are very decent and would not harm a child, but if it's 5% or two, whatever it is, some percent, the, these platforms give them free reign. And I should clarify, you know, once your daughter gets on, on Instagram or TikTok, it's not just strange men who are gonna be doing stuff. It's the boys in her class also. There's a book called American Girls. It's horrifying. I forget the author. But she goes through how boys use nude pics of their female classmates as currency, and the eighth-grade boys, if they can get a pic of a, of a, you know, a, an eighth-grade girl's breasts, you know, g- um, they can then trade that to a high school boy who will get them beer. I mean, things like that, just that girls' bodies become currency, and the degradation and the humiliation. Um, so it's just-- there's a degree of, of sex and degradation to life online where Children are interacting with strangers, and there's no rules, and no one's accountable. Um, so that's why, that's why my group says, we say very clearly in the book, "No social media till 16."

    24. MR

      I find it really fascinating that you have two divergent things happening when it comes to parenting and modern society. On the other side of the coin, in real life, we've become, like, so psycho overprotective that we're overprotecting our kids from real-life-

    25. JH

      Exactly

    26. MR

      ... experiences.

    27. JH

      Exactly.

    28. MR

      I wanna read to you from page 90, "American parents have lost so much trust in their fellow citizens and their own children that many now endorse the near total elimination of freedom-

    29. JH

      Mm-hmm

    30. MR

      ... from childhood." Now, this is a report that's over 10 years old, and it's-

  6. 21:44 – 26:09

    Why Your Son Can’t Put His Phone Down

    1. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    2. MR

      What is the impact on boys when you give them a smartphone too soon, or they have access to social media too soon?

    3. JH

      Right. So for boys, don't keep your eye on social media. For boys, keep your eye on anything that's like a stimulus response reward thing. So it starts with video games, and I remember my son, you know, we had simple games on the, on the iPhone, and I remember seeing addictions form, where he was... He would get very irrit- you know, if you took it away, he'd scream. He had to have it. Um, if when you take something away, the kid is very upset, that's a definite sign of dopamine adaptation. That is, their brain has gotten accustomed to a lot of quick dopamine, so when you take it away, now their brain is in a deficit state. It takes a couple of weeks, uh, you know, a, a couple of weeks to sort of get over that, for the brain to re- restore itself.

    4. MR

      Okay, so just hover here for a second. So for boys, what you're teaching us so far is it's less about all of the stuff on social media.

    5. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MR

      The bigger picture is, when it comes to boys and brain development-

    7. JH

      Mm-hmm

    8. MR

      ... the addictive nature of social media and short-form content-

    9. JH

      Mm-hmm

    10. MR

      ... and all this stuff-

    11. JH

      Yeah

    12. MR

      ... makes them super addicted to it.

    13. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      And then when you go to try to limit it, now you're gonna get the outburst.

    15. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MR

      Now you're gonna get the issues.

    17. JH

      Okay, yeah.

    18. MR

      And that's a sign that you got a problem.

    19. JH

      That's right. Maybe a metaphor that would be helpful here is imagine, you know, imagine 1,000, um, uh, it's kind of a weird metaphor. Let's try it. Imagine, uh, 1,000, uh, uh, fishermen with big hooks dropping their hooks down, and your boy is sitting there on the ocean floor, and all of these hooks are baited with the most amazing possible things, and they're all trying to get your boy to bite, and this is his entire childhood. It starts with the video games, and those are amazing, and there's so many coming at him on every possible surface. Um, and it's the short videos and the memes, and then when he gets a little older, it's the porn, and then it's the, um, uh, sports betting. My God, you know, uh, states have legalized sports betting, and kids are able to g- get around the age limits, but there are, uh, there's gambling in almost everything now. So for boys, it's open season on their dopamine system. Open season, companies are sending out fishing fleets to try to suck out all the, all the dopamine. Um, that's what you need to keep your eye on for boys.

    20. MR

      And what does it do psychologically to your son?

    21. JH

      Uh, dopamine is the hormone of motivation, and what you want is slow dopamine. Uh, what you want, especially for boys, boys' outcomes are more variable than girls. Boys can be incredibly successful, and they're rep- overrepresented at that, and also among society's losers, they're way overrepresented in that. So boys, the outcome of their life is much less certain than it is for girls. If boys are able to apply themselves and work towards a long-term goal, they can be incredibly effective and successful in the world, and they're, and they often end up with a certain kind of ambition that you find more in boys than girls. But boys are also so easily lured into becoming lazy bums that never move out of the house. Because-

    22. MR

      So if you're frustrated 'cause your son is not launching, or he's in the basement-

    23. JH

      Yeah

    24. MR

      ... or he's dropped out of college, or he's lost motivation, or-

    25. JH

      Mm-hmm

    26. MR

      ... never sees his friends-

    27. JH

      Yep

    28. MR

      ... there is a direct link?

    29. JH

      Yes, a direct link. Because, so think about it this way. Um, we, we all have to learn how to do hard things. Children have to do hard things over and over again. Um, if you present, if you present a child with a path, either you can do this really hard thing to get a candy bar, or you can just have the candy bar. Which do you want? I'll take the candy bar. So it used to be that you had to work to get things. So for example, you know, the biggest project for me when I was in middle and high school was getting a girlfriend. You know, I'm not saying sixth grade, but you know, by ninth grade-

    30. MR

      Yeah

  7. 26:09 – 30:13

    Why Your Kids Struggle to Focus

    1. JH

      We talked about mental health and mental illness a lot here. Um, but what I've discovered since the book came out is that that's actually not the biggest damage that this stuff has done to our kids. The biggest damage is the destruction of the human ability to pay attention, to focus, and to pursue goals. That is the destruction of what we call executive function, the ability to formulate plans, uh, you know, orchestrate what you need to do, keep it in mind, and pursue it, while all the while, your phone is saying, "Come look at memes, come look at videos." So if a boy has the ability to delay gratification, to keep his eye on the prize, he's gonna be effective in this world. Women don't want a man who's nothing. They don't want a man who has no achievements. They don't want a man who's going nowhere. So a lot of our boys are basically consigned to unmarriageability because they've been damaged by this, and they don't have the ability to really pursue long-term goals.

    2. MR

      I have never heard anybody explain it this way. I have heard lots of amazing researchers-

    3. JH

      Mm

    4. MR

      ... and experts talk about the crisis in men-

    5. JH

      Mm

    6. MR

      ... and in boys. And oftentimes, especially as a woman, and I have a husband who is in that field-

    7. JH

      Mm-hmm

    8. MR

      ... he leads men's retreats. He's a death doula. He is about to get his, finish his degree-

    9. JH

      Wow

    10. MR

      ... in spiritual psychology.

    11. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    12. MR

      Deeply concerned about it. Um, but it often feels like it's always been pitted as it's the rise of women and the-

    13. JH

      Yeah

    14. MR

      ... empowerment of women-

    15. JH

      Right

    16. MR

      ... and, and it's, and what I'm hearing is so compelling. And so I wanna make sure-

    17. JH

      Mm-hmm

    18. MR

      ... that I'm getting this right, Dr. Haidt, and I wanna make sure as you're listening, that you're gaining this key and critical insight-

    19. JH

      Mm-hmm

    20. MR

      ... into what's actually happening, especially for boys and young men. When it comes to girls and the ways that social media has entered a central role in their life, it has replaced connection, it has made them perform, it has exposed them to hypersexuality. We see a direct causal link in a spike in anxiety, a spike in mental health disorders, self-harm, suicidal ideation-

    21. JH

      Mm-hmm

    22. MR

      ... and eating disorders.

    23. JH

      Yes.

    24. MR

      With boys, the impact of all of the short-form content, and the dopamine, and the addictive nature-

    25. JH

      Mm. The gambling, the porn, all of it

    26. MR

      ... the gambling, the porn, all of it, that your boys, your brother-

    27. JH

      Mm-hmm

    28. MR

      ... your sons, your spouse, your boyfriend have all been exposed to, it has a direct and causal link to destroying motivation-

    29. JH

      That's right

    30. MR

      ... to imploding executive function-

  8. 30:13 – 33:20

    How to Stop Wasting Hours on Your Phone

    1. MR

      What do you do if you're listening to this and your heart is sinking?

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      And you see this in your brother-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... or you see this in your boyfriend.

    6. JH

      Yeah.

    7. MR

      And as you're learning about this, you also are gonna go home and see them sitting on the couch scrolling through short-form as they've got the game on-

    8. JH

      Yeah. That's right

    9. MR

      ... and they're placing a bet. What do we do? Like, what's the first thing to do if you're concerned about-

    10. JH

      Mm-hmm

    11. MR

      ... a man-

    12. JH

      Mm-hmm

    13. MR

      ... who had this impact him, or you are concerned about a young adult or a boy that you are starting to see they don't wanna do sports. They're-

    14. JH

      Yeah

    15. MR

      ... kinda pulling out. They spend a lot of time in their room.

    16. JH

      No moral judgment. Let's, you know, th- understand what's, what's happening here. Um, and of course, it's very hard to even change yourself. It's very hard for a person to make New Year's resolutions, just say, "I'm gonna have better habits." It's even harder to change another person. Um, so if it's just you trying to persuade this person to change, that is really, really hard. But there's a couple things that can really help you.

    17. MR

      Okay.

    18. JH

      One is to have that person agree and be on your side. And so if you talk to them and see, do they see it as a problem or not? And most young people do s- they, they, they're very clear about it.

    19. MR

      What do you hear from young pe- what do you hear from the boys and from the young men that when they hear-

    20. JH

      Mm-hmm

    21. MR

      ... that it's not their fault?

    22. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      'Cause I think that's a very empowering thing-

    24. JH

      Yeah

    25. MR

      ... to hear, that the lack of motivation, the lack of gusto, the lack of passion and direction-

    26. JH

      Yeah

    27. MR

      ... in your li- it's not your fa- you're not a loser.

    28. JH

      Yeah.

    29. MR

      You were preyed upon.

    30. JH

      Mm-hmm. That's right.

  9. 33:20 – 41:01

    Can You Reverse a Phone Addiction?

    1. MR

      Now, what do you wanna say to the teenager or the middle schooler-

    2. JH

      Yeah

    3. MR

      ... who's frustrated with their parents-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... and feels like they're the only one? What did you want them to know-

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm

    7. MR

      ... Dr. Haidt?

    8. JH

      Well, I would start by acknowledging the pain. I would start by acknowledging that, that none of us wanna be left out, and especially at that age, that it is painful. So I would acknowledge that. Um, and then I would also say, um, that in the long run, other kids are gonna look at you as the cool one because you're gonna develop the skills and the confidence. You're gonna learn how to do things in the world. You're gonna, uh, uh, retain a sense of focus and sharpness. Um, so in the long run, things are gonna be better for you.

    9. MR

      Well, sometimes the most loving thing that you can do is something that your kids hate you for-

    10. JH

      Mm-hmm

    11. MR

      ... in the moment.

    12. JH

      That's right.

    13. MR

      And that's the job of being a parent.

    14. JH

      That's right. That's the-- Right. The job of a parent is to work yourself out of a job. It's to create a self-governing, functional young adult.

    15. MR

      Yes.

    16. JH

      And, uh, even though it's painful. And I'm not, I'm not coming here as the expert who did this all right. As I said, I did a really good job on social media. I did not do a very good job on general computers and watching videos on the computer. You know, during COVID, everything was on the computer, so I know how hard it is.

    17. MR

      I can almost hear the person listening, copy link, text to brother.

    18. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      Copy link.

    20. JH

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      Send to boyfriend.

    22. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      Copy link, send to husband. Copy link-

    24. JH

      Yeah

    25. MR

      ... send to my colleague that just-

    26. JH

      Mm-hmm

    27. MR

      ... got laid off.

    28. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MR

      Because nobody has ever explained to me the way that you just did-

    30. JH

      Mm-hmm

  10. 41:01 – 46:02

    5 Phone Rules Every Parent Should Set

    1. MR

      Well, let's talk about the limits.

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MR

      So give me the specific concrete-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... if you were to run your household-

    6. JH

      Mm-hmm

    7. MR

      ... with proper boundaries, with devices-

    8. JH

      Yeah

    9. MR

      ... what are they?

    10. JH

      Yeah. Here's what I wish I did. Here's what I'd recommend. Starting, if you have young kids, um, you can have a computer in a common space. You can have a TV in a common space, and then you just simply have a rule, no screens in the bedroom ever.

    11. MR

      Okay. But so no s- so-

    12. JH

      No screens in the bedroom

    13. MR

      ... no screens are in common places. No screens in bedrooms.

    14. JH

      That's right.

    15. MR

      Rule number one.

    16. JH

      Rule number two, um, is stories are good, but short-form is bad. And so what I mean is, um, human-- We have to all understand, this isn't like no screens, no TV. This is, understand that humans are storytelling animals. We have always told stories. We use stories to convey patterns to our kids. This is part of enculturation. All cultures use a lot of stories. So if you wanna have movie night with your kid once or twice a week, that's a good thing. Like, you should do that. That's a really good thing. They pay attention for a two-hour movie. Maybe you have to break it up over two days when the kids are young. But they pay attention to a story which transports you into a fictional space. Th- there's something magical and good about that. When you get lost in a Harry Potter book, when you get lost in a movie, that's all good, okay? And a TV screen can be a good way to do that. So, um, so watching long videos with another person, a sibling, a friend, or a parent, um, on a, on a, with a regular schedule, meaning only on, like, you know, Friday and Sunday, whatever, like some regular schedule, so it's not like, "Mom, I'm bored. Can we put on, uh, The Incredibles?" You know, it has to be very, very regular. "This is when we do movie night."

    17. MR

      You know, one of the things that has really helped me, and I just offer this, uh, in case it might help you as you're listening, is I love the rule... 'Cause I like very concrete black-and-white things. I don't like things that are like, "You could do this, you could..." No. I love no phone in the bedroom. It gets put away at 10:00.

    18. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MR

      You don't look at it again first thing in the morning until you're out the door or whatever. I also, it has made a huge difference in our family, we have no phones at the table.

    20. JH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. MR

      Period.

    22. JH

      Yep. Good.

    23. MR

      Not allowed.

    24. JH

      That's right.

    25. MR

      Not allowed on the table, not-

    26. JH

      Not even to look up something quick.

    27. MR

      Nope.

    28. JH

      "Mom, I'm just looking up what we were talking about."

    29. MR

      Nope.

    30. JH

      No. That's right. That's what we do.

  11. 46:02 – 49:26

    What Happens When You Quit Social Media?

    1. MR

      Can you explain, though, the good news-

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm

    3. MR

      ... that is available to us now that we see the connection? What is possible, particularly for men and women-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... boys and girls-

    6. JH

      Yeah

    7. MR

      ... that have been impacted by this?

    8. JH

      So what I can assure listeners is that if you, if you have any slot machine apps on your phone, if you have any apps that, that are, are sending you notifications and, and, and getting you to come back and scroll, if you just move them off your phone, for starters, just u- use it only on a computer or on a, on an old iPad. Um, if you, if you get it off your phone, you'll be less addicted to your phone.

    9. MR

      Mm.

    10. JH

      And if you're less addicted to your phone and you turn it back into a tool, n- not a master of your life, you're gonna find your, your consciousness sort of clearing and coming back. Um, and so what I'm saying is if you change your habits, you're gonna change the, the, the, the, the things that are coming into your eyes and ears, and you're gonna find that your attention is less fragmented.

    11. MR

      Mm.

    12. JH

      And when your attention starts coming together in larger pieces, then you can work more quickly and effectively with higher quality work, and then you have more time, and if you have more time, you feel less time pressure and you're less anxious.

    13. MR

      Do you have research that shows or proves that when you get control of your-

    14. JH

      Mm-hmm

    15. MR

      ... relationship with all these apps and social media-

    16. JH

      Mm-hmm

    17. MR

      ... that mental health conditions get better?

    18. JH

      There is a body of experiments. They're called social media reduction experiments. A lot of researchers have said, "We're gonna randomly assign people, you know, 200 people, reduce their social media use to an hour a day, 200, no change, and we see what happens." Um, so we've collected, we've found, uh, I think about 35 of them by now. Those that go on for at least a week, um, ideally two or three, and that focus on mental health, on anxiety and depression, almost all of them find that the levels of those things go down if you're off for a week or two.

    19. MR

      That's how quickly this-

    20. JH

      That's how quickly

    21. MR

      ... can turn around?

    22. JH

      That's right. Because think about the d- think about dopamine. Your dopamine circuits, they'll recover if you stop the stimulation, and if you start do- thinking, you start doing other things. So, but very important is that one of the groups that did this was Meta. We know from the leaks, we know from all the documents that have come out, they did an experiment. They called it Project Mercury, and it was, uh, it w- it was bo- uh, Facebook users and Instagram users. This was around 2018, I think. Um, and they randomly assigned them. They requested that they, I believe it was stop using. Stop using it, f- and they just did it for one week, and they found that the people who got off, their mental health improved.

    23. MR

      Mm.

    24. JH

      Now, this was supposed to be a pilot study. They were gonna do a much larger study, but once they found out, oops Oops, this looks bad. Um, uh, it looks like they never did the larger study, but we have the, we have the findings from that, and they talk about it. And one of them says, "It looks like it's causal." This is not a correlation. This is causal evidence. So we know this very well. If you're addicted to something and you stop doing it, for the first few days, it actually can be painful, but if you stick with it, within a week or two, your life comes back.

    25. MR

      I love that phrase, your life comes back, because I think we all feel like we're losing-

    26. JH

      Yeah, there's a deadness

    27. MR

      ... our lives.

    28. JH

      Yeah.

    29. MR

      There's a deadness.

  12. 49:26 – 53:39

    How to Take Control of Your Attention

    1. MR

      For somebody who feels very inspired and motivated by-

    2. JH

      Mm-hmm

    3. MR

      ... all this work and research-

    4. JH

      Mm-hmm

    5. MR

      ... and advocacy, are there, is there a place that someone can go-

    6. JH

      Yeah

    7. MR

      ... to get tools to advocate changes-

    8. JH

      Mm-hmm

    9. MR

      ... at their local school?

    10. JH

      Absolutely.

    11. MR

      Or to have guidance on how to talk within your own family-

    12. JH

      Mm-hmm, yeah

    13. MR

      ... about this?

    14. JH

      So if you wanna take action, uh, please go to anxiousgeneration.com, and at the website, we have a take action button, and then you can choose, are you a parent? Are you a teacher or educator? Are you a legislator? Um, uh, and so we have specific advice for all of them. Um, also, letgrow.org if you wanna give your kids more of a real-world childhood. Um, those are the two, the two organizations that my team and I have, have created to help parents and teachers and everyone else give our kids back life in the real world.

    15. MR

      Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Haidt, for providing all these resources. Thank you for this extraordinary book and for scaring the hell out of us, but also-

    16. JH

      [laughs]

    17. MR

      ... impa- no, but also impa-

    18. JH

      Yeah.

    19. MR

      Like, it's important to know the truth.

    20. JH

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      Dr. Haidt, what are your parting words?

    22. JH

      No matter how rich you are, you can't buy more attention, and most of us give it away for free. Young people tell me they get a notification every time they get an email because they don't wanna miss anything, but if you commit to not missing things, that means you're never fully present, and you actually miss everything. So turn off almost all notifications. Put an almost infinite value on your attention. Only give it to companies that are offering you something really valuable like, of course, Uber and Lyft, you should leave on notifications. You want to know if the car is coming. But no newspapers, no sports scores, no nothing should interrupt you. Um, treat your attention as though it is sacred and precious. Uh, and if you can get larger pieces of it, your life will change.

    23. MR

      I, I cannot thank you enough for doing this research, for writing this blockbuster book, for all of the advocacy that you're doing, for the support that you're giving to the class action lawsuits that people are bringing to try to get the laws changed, and I really appreciate, um, your work, and I know that my life is gonna change for the better because of it, and I know s- millions of people's lives will as well, so thank you, thank you, thank you. Do not stop.

    24. JH

      Oh, my pleasure, and thank you, Mel, for all you do to bring psychological research out to the world.

    25. MR

      You're welcome, and thank you. Thank you for making the time. You heard Dr. Haidt say your attention is the most important thing that you have. In fact, where you pour your time, where you put your attention, is what determines how your life is, period. And so thank you for giving your single most precious resource, your attention, to this conversation. It matters, and it's gonna empower you to support your kids and support your family and support yourself in taking your power back. And in case no one else tells you today, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you, and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life, and there is no doubt in my mind, if you take everything that you learned today and you apply it to your life, your life is gonna get better, and you're gonna feel better, and you're gonna feel more in control of it, and you deserve that. All right. I'm gonna welcome you in to the very next episode. I will see you there the moment you hit play. And thank you for watching all the way to the end on YouTube. Thank you for sharing this. I hope you are cutting and pasting the link to this and putting it in your family group chat and sharing it with the people that you care about. We all deserve to know the truth, and we deserve to know what we can do in order to take our power back. Now, if you love this, do me a favor. You see that subscribe button? If it's lit up, it means you're not a subscriber. Take a moment and hit subscribe. It's the best way for you to say, "Hey, Mel, I love what you're doing here. I appreciate you showing up for me." And Dr. Haidt, I appreciate you being here, too. Thank you for doing that. I truly appreciate your support 'cause it's my goal that 50% of you that watch the podcast here are subscribers. It's free. That way you don't miss a thing, and it's the best way to say thank you. All right. I know you wanna watch another video, and I'm sure you're gonna love this one next. I'm gonna welcome you in the moment you hit play.

Episode duration: 53:43

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode DFcndrm7ql4

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome