The Mel Robbins PodcastHow to Speak So That People Listen: #1 Rule for Getting the Support You Need
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,010 words- 0:00 – 3:00
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
Let's change some lives.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Let's change some lives. When you know you don't like where you are-
- MRMel Robbins
(sighs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... it's a great start. I started to realize I had been swallowing my dreams for eight years. Why? And so it all came to, what- what got me stuck in the first place? It was the word when. "I will do this when." The when is so powerful to us, that keeps us stuck. And what I had to ask myself is, what happens if the when never came? So, I'm going to do X, Y, and Z when this happens. What if that thing never happens? What now? And so taking away that when was very powerful for me.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so glad you're here. I'm just honored to be able to spend some time with you today. Welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast family, and thank you. Thank you for making this podcast one of the most popular podcasts in the entire world. And I also wanna start by acknowledging you for something. You decided to listen to this, and I know why you did, because you're committed to making your own life better. And I just wanna say, I think that is so cool. I am so proud of you. So go you. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times bestselling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation. And I have a simple mission, and it's this. I just wanna inspire and empower you with the tools and the expert resources that you need and deserve in order to create a better life. And lately, I've been seeing so many of you writing in from around the world, and you are having so much trouble shaking free of the guilt that you feel. It's almost like I can feel the weight of it as I'm reading your questions and reading your stories. And, you know, the fact that you have all these things that you would like to do, there are things about who you are, but it doesn't fit the expectations of other people in your life. Whether it's what your family thinks that you should be doing with your career, or what your spouse thinks you should be doing with your life, or maybe you don't wanna get married, maybe you don't want kids, maybe you don't wanna work in the family business or go to the school that your brother and your sister went to. Or maybe people are upset with you, and they don't really say it directly, but you know it, and it's because you no longer practice the religion of the household that you grew up in. Or perhaps you're just questioning yourself every single day because you're on this totally different path that your friends are on right now. And you think about it, and then you feel conflicted, and you wanna talk to the people in your life about it, but you don't know how to bring it up or... Have you ever done this? You actually do bring it up. This is what happened to me. You bring up this thing that you wanna do. "You know, I think I might start an online business." And the reaction, "Wait, you? What- what are you gonna sell? What do you know about that?" That happened to me. See, 20 years ago when I first decided I wanted to go into something called life coaching, it wasn't really this big thing, but I went through this big training program, and when I was done with the training program, I told a friend of mine that I was gonna start a life coaching business. And she looked me in the face
- 3:00 – 6:20
Have you ever had a dream that nobody supported?
- MRMel Robbins
and said, "You? Who is gonna hire you to coach them?" I felt myself disappear, and I bet you can relate. That may be the message that you're getting right now from the people in your life. So I wanted to track down someone who's not only insanely successful, but she is also radically confident. And I am absolutely thrilled that one of my dear, dear friends, I love this person, Lisa Bilyeu hopped on a plane in Los Angeles and flew all the way to our studios here in Boston just to coach you. So let me tell you a little bit about Lisa. Lisa is the co-founder of Quest Nutrition. You know that brand. Every single grocery store on the planet has like an entire aisle of their cookies and their chips and their bars, which by the way, was ultimately sold for a billion dollars. But that isn't just the whole story. Lisa's journey to becoming unapologetically and confidently herself began being a young gal dreaming of the film business, but she grew up in a conservative Greek family in the UK, and they were not all that thrilled about the film business. In fact, she was told, "Don't worry about those dreams 'cause you're gonna go on and get married and just support your husband." And you know what? Ultimately, that's where her path started to lead. And for the first eight years of her marriage, she put all those ambitions and dreams on the back burner. So it begs the question, how on earth did Lisa Bilyeu go from feeling like a bored, insecure housewife to one of the most successful, confident, and absolutely unbelievable people that I know and love? Well, you're about to hear the whole story, and more importantly, the advice, the tactics, the tools, and the scripts, I love scripts, that you need in order to take control of your life and own how you want to live it regardless of what everybody else thinks about it. And after leaving Quest Nutrition, Lisa is now the co-founder and president of Impact Theory Studios. She's a New York Times bestselling author. Her YouTube channels and all the shows that they launch have billions of views, and she is here today to be with you and me. So please help me welcome the remarkable Lisa Bilyeu.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Ah, Mel Robbins!
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Let's go, girl. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) My God.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I'm so excited to be here.
- MRMel Robbins
I am so excited that you're here.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Let's change some lives.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's change some lives. So I wanna go back to the beginning of your story because when people tune into the shows that you produce, they pick up a Quest bar, they see you on the cover of your New York Times bestseller, Radical Confidence, you are the kind of person that just screams, "I don't care what you think, I'm doing what I wanna do." You are so confident and just yourself that you're probably intimidating to a lot of people. So take us back to the beginning-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
All right.
- MRMel Robbins
... and tell us a little bit about Lisa...... being a little girl over in the UK, and what you dreamt about doing, and the kind of family environment you grew up in.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah, so I think everything that we talk about, how we handle things as an adult absolutely stems from the things we've been taught we should or shouldn't
- 6:20 – 8:40
If you were told this as a young girl, it’s impacting you now.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
do. The amount of times I've been patted on the head by a, um, um, grown man when I was a kid, telling me, "Little girls don't speak until spoken to." So I think it's super important for people at home to be listening, to think about what their story is, and how they then use what we talk about to then lead into the life they actually want. So the expectations, Greek family, very traditional, was patted on the head a lot, like I said.
- MRMel Robbins
Really? Like literally, tap, tap, tap?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Like literally, top, top, top, tapped on the head t- multiple times. Um, and little things, like when you think about the subliminal messages that we're taught, you have to pay attention, because when you look at your belief system now, a lot of it stems from what you've been taught as a child to be true. So for me, for instance, I would run in the street, play like, you know, like a, y- in, in the mud with boys, and I would scrape my knee, and my grandmother would like come running over, like wipe the tears, and in a big thr-, big, thick Greek accent, she'd be like, "Oh, it's okay. You'll be okay by the time you get married." Oh, so, "You're gonna be okay by the time you get married." That was her consoling me for pain. So imagine that messaging for a young little girl. It's basically saying, "Your life only needs to get..." Like, "Don't worry, when you get married, everything's gonna be solved for you, and you just need to get to marriage." Then I go on s- study film. I have these big dreams, audacious, like, "I wanna win an Academy Award" was like... I actually said that. I would stay up at 3:00 AM, I'd watch the Oscars. Um, and I remember so vividly doing that.
- MRMel Robbins
And what was it about film that really drew you in?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I was bullied and teased as a kid for my looks, and being short, and a big nose, and a unibrow. And I had like a head brace that went all the way around the platine. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Oh my God.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Dude.
- MRMel Robbins
A head brace. I remember head braces.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Oh my... I wish I had a photo, but I refused to let anyone take a photo of me with a head brace. So I go to school, I get teased and bullied. I go home, I can lose myself in anything. You watch a movie, it impacts your life. It can change how you feel. It can change how you see things. It was just magical to me. So I wanted to be a part of that.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
The magic of creating a story that can impact someone for the, for the greater good. So I just loved film, so I really wanted to do it. But I have a very traditional Greek father, and so
- 8:40 – 10:40
This is where your belief system starts, and it’s important to know this.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I was like, "I wanna go to film school, Dad. I wanna go." And he's just like, "No, you need to do something academic. It has to be math, science," something like that. We argued for like two weeks. In the end, he turned to me. I remember this day so clearly. He turned to me and he said, "You know what? It doesn't matter. Study film, you're gonna be a stay-at-home wife anyway." Now here's the thing. Uh, w- I hope people can see your face. If you're on podcast...
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... Mel looks horrified right now, people. Now here's the thing. Think about where my dad came from. Everyone has a belief system. Remember how I said that earlier?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
My dad's belief system was he grew up in a tiny mountain in, uh, in a village in Cyprus. The toilet was a hole in the floor. He didn't have running water. So all the kids growing up, there was no school. So at the age of 12, they would choose, I think it was like four kids from the village that would then be taken for an education. They didn't choose women 'cause contracep- contraception didn't exist. So women just got pregnant. So they're like, "Well, we won't give a woman an education, 'cause she can't go out anyway."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"Let's give the boys an education. Let's take them away from their families." So at the age of 12, my dad moved away from his parents, lived with strangers, just to go to school. So now when my dad says to me as an adult, or as a, you know, teenager who wants to go to college, "You're just gonna be a stay-at-home wife anyway," it wasn't an insult. It was his belief system. Now at the time, I took it as an offense, as a lot of us do. We like take offense to that sort of thing. And I fought back, and I was like... well, at the time I was like, "Well, actually, I got what I wanted, so it doesn't matter." But that was a pivotal thing that happened to me that made me realize, I have to understand where people come from before I defend or judge their opinion.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's highlight this for a minute. Because when it's happening to you, you are so offended, and angered, and frozen in the moment-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... and yet it is so easy to forget that the world that your
- 10:40 – 14:50
Use a “frame of reference” when people say things that are hurtful.
- MRMel Robbins
parents grew up in doesn't exist anymore.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
But they still live based on the conditioning, the experiences, the good, the bad, from that world.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And yet we just have this expectation that somehow every human being is going to magically transform, and magically think differently, even though they have had generational conditioning. And that is not to excuse-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
No.
- MRMel Robbins
... any kind of abusive, or terrible, or toxic behavior, or excuse what your dad just said to you, but you've just offered up this framework where you can look back and go, "Wait a minute. I'm not condoning what he did, but I understand it."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah, it's what I call a frame of reference. It is so helpful when people say anything to me from now on, and it's not even just offensive. Like if someone says something, it's like, "Oh, what's their frame of reference in they're saying that? Like, "What would have to be true..." Like imagine movie scripts, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I've just said movies are my jam. I literally go, "If I was writing a script right now, what would have to be true about their frame of reference for them to say that to me?" Now when it comes to family, I do this a lot. I don't necessarily do it with strangers a lot, because I don't... that it takes a lot of time and energy to go through someone's-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... frame of reference. But when it's a parent, when it's a friend, why are they actually saying it? What is it that has taught them to believe that thing that they're saying to you? So you said earlier about how people said to you like, "You're going into coaching. What the hell?" My dad said the same thing, like, "Movies? What the hell do you know about movies?" Now here's the other thing. A, frame of reference, already said that, makes me understand my dad. The second thing that I'm gonna be honest, Mel, is what the hell did I know about movies?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Like when people get very defensive over the... right?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Like, "What did you know about coaching? You didn't probably know...
- MRMel Robbins
Ooh, I took some course.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
I mean, literally. I didn't know what the hell I was doing.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
But that's my point. We take offense to, um, criticism when sometimes the criticism is true. And so-
- MRMel Robbins
It's true.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And so what I go is instead of it being criticism, what can I learn from it? So if my dad said to me, and I didn't have this frame of reference at the time, but I do now, if my dad said to me, "You can't make it in Hollywood," my response would be, "Why?" And he will list a whole load of reasons. "You don't know anyone." "You have to have a visa." Um, "You haven't got an education." All of those things he says is true. So what I do instead is I go, "Listen." Because it's not that they don't believe in you, they believe in the laws of physics, if you will. If you haven't taught yourself something, how you gonna know it?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I just go, "Oh, he's got a point." And so instead of taking offense to it, instead of making that detrimental to my self-esteem, which I used to, I don't wanna pretend that I never used to. I absolutely did. Uh, so I want people to know that the way that I'm talking now is how I think now. It's an evolution. And I'm trying to help people that have been there, because, or- or there, because I've been there. I know what it feels like when someone doesn't believe in you. I know what it feels like when someone actually tears down your fricking dreams. It feels terrible. It feels, um, destroying sometimes emotionally. It makes you doubt yourself, who you are, and what you want. But how do you get past it? Frame of reference, and maybe there's truth to what they say. And if there's truth, you've now become more powerful for it.
- MRMel Robbins
Damn, Lisa fricking Bilyeu. I, I did not expect us to go here, and I'm so happy we are.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Because this is something that can help anyone navigate your day-to-day life, because it is so easy to get hooked and triggered emotionally-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... when somebody else's frame of reference is not the same as yours.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct.
- 14:50 – 20:15
How to improve the relationships in your life.
- MRMel Robbins
can we take some time to really unpack it for the person-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Totally.
- MRMel Robbins
... that's listening?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah, let's go deep.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's start with how you define what this thing is. And can you give us an example of how the person listening might be able to use this concept of frame of reference to create better relationships with somebody in their life?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah, absolutely. So frame of reference really is how someone perceives the world, the words they use and actions. So when somebody comes in and yells, if you've come from a family of abusive, verbally abusive family, let's say, where you've just, yelling actually triggers you, if someone comes in and yells, your frame of reference is, "Danger."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"Run." If you come from a Greek family where everyone yells, and someone yells, I'm like, "Oh my God, it's my peeps."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
My frame of reference is when someone yells, it feels good. It means that everyone's happy and excited. So you can imagine two people in the same room communicating over something, and their frame of reference is completely different. You're talking, it's l- literally like I'm talking Chinese and you're talking, you know, English, and we are not understanding each other, because our, our entire perception of words, actions, and behaviors are all based on our own beliefs of grow- from growing up.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Does that make sense?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes. And if you... And the reason why this is powerful is because if you understand, in your example, that you're not triggered by yelling, because your association growing up in a very loud, "Ra-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba," kind of family is that's the sound of a full house.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But somebody else may experience that same volume and have a profound shutdown and traumatic response, because that kind of volume and yelling in their household meant something else.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct. So now when you see somebody acting out of accordance to what you expect them to do, right? So, you know, when you go into a conversation and like, "Okay, they're gonna say this," and then they say the comp- You're like, "They're offended? How the hell are they offended? I thought that that was gonna be a great news." That's an indication you actually probably have a different frame of reference.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I would imagine that most couples therapy is nothing but a therapist trying to tease out people's frames of reference, which is their conditioning-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
... from their life experience, which then leads to your beliefs.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And this needs to be shouted from the rooftops, because what you're talking about at the highest level isn't allowing someone else to treat you poorly. What you're talking about is developing a skill where you do not allow other people's frame of reference, or other people's emotions, or other people's opinions to derail you.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And at the same time, because you're not derailed, because you're not emotionally triggered, you have this objectivity to truly hold space for that other person.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And obviously this is a lot of work, so you do it with the people you care about. Like, it's hard to do (laughs) with strangers.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
But even so, it's a way to not be emotionally hooked. Now, we're in a story where you're probably 16, 17 years old, and you feel run over by, you know, a, a train at the moment.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Oh, I'm in tears. My... I used to be called daddy's little girl, so you can imagine this entire thing where my dad doesn't believe in me, it is-... tearing me apart. And so I still went to college, I still studied film, but-
- MRMel Robbins
So did you study film in the UK?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes. So I studied film, yeah. I got a degree in movie making and-
- 20:15 – 22:50
What to do with those negative voices in your mind.
- MRMel Robbins
next?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I'm thinking, "Okay, I'm getting this degree, I'm working..." But like, all of my dad's concerns are, like, in my little ear, right?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Like, like, "You don't know anyone Hollywood. How are you gonna make movies?" Like, all these voices.
- MRMel Robbins
And I'm looking at you-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... because if you're watching on YouTube you see it, but if you're listening to us, Lisa Bilyeu has such a extraordinary style, and she is so distinctive and gorgeous and powerful in her style. And she has this fabulous stack of earrings.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
And so as you reached up your little hand and you started to wiggle your fingers, I started thinking about it. It's almost like wearing an ear cuff that's, like, going, "Beep, beep, beep, beep, beep."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
"You're not gonna, you're gonna get married anyway-"
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Exactly, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... that's always, like, right there, hanging around-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... just kinda chirping in your ear.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah, except you ca- you can take earrings out at the end of the day. You can't take the thought out of it, you know, as easy. Um, but it's so true. Like, it is... That voice echoes, and you remember that stuff. The stuff that really stings is the stuff that you remember.
- MRMel Robbins
True.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And so it was repeating in my head. So as I was finishing college, I was like, "What is that next move?" Like, "I don't know anyone in Hollywood. I have zero contacts, and I don't have a visa." And then my roommate walks in and she hands me a brochure for the New York Film Academy. And sh- it's an eight-week course, you get to go to America, you get to film on the backlots of Universal Studios. Like, you actually get to use their sets. You get to use their props department. I mean, it was literally like a dream come true, and it was just for eight weeks. And so I had, I was like, "Okay, I have to persuade my dad now to fund it," 'cause I had no money. I was c- I was in college. I had just finished college. So I was like, "This is dream come true. I get to go to America. I'm gonna prove myself in eight weeks, and I'm gonna get the five-picture deal," right? Like, that's the-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, yeah.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
That's the, the lie I'm telling myself. But the lie was helpful.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
The lie propelled me forward, so I actually don't mind that. So I go to my dad and I have to convince him again. And I'm like, "Dad, I know that I said that I'd finish college and I'd get a job and..."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"... but I actually need a lot of money to go and study film in America for eight weeks." And so, again, we just argued, and eventually he's like, "As long as you promise me that when you come back, the first thing you're gonna do is take life seriously and get a job, and get a career until you find the guy." He didn't say that, but that's what was underlined.
- MRMel Robbins
Yup, yup.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I said, "Yep, deal." So I go to America, and my life changed forever.
- MRMel Robbins
What happened?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I walk into the New York Film Academy, and I'm like, "Wow, my, that teacher, my teacher's really freaking hot."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And I'm in class. This is a school for adults, people, just to give context. (laughs)
- 22:50 – 28:10
The first date that completely shattered Lisa’s frame of reference.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
really smoking, and he's very talented, and I get very turned on by talent." And so he shows his movie, and I'm really interested, and he ignores me, Mel. And I'm like, "God, this guy." So anyway, to cut a long story short, a month in, he turns around and asks me on a date.
- MRMel Robbins
It, like, so you're still taking the class?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I'd finished-
- MRMel Robbins
You got four weeks left, baby, 'cause it's an eight-week class.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes. L- Look at her counting. But the last four weeks was practical.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I didn't have any more classes with him. You just have to go out and make your movie.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, great.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So on the last day of my last class, it was like, I, I hint we're going out with friends. He's like, "Why don't you give me your number?"
- MRMel Robbins
And how much older was he than you?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Four years.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so n- like, this is not, like, some 40-year-old dude?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
No, no, no, no.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, gotcha.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So he comes to pick me up on the first day, and it is not what I was expecting, not what I thought, like, I'd been taught as a young kid. Like, having a car with rims was, like, a sign of wealth. Wealth meant security. Um, having a guy that wore so much cologne was, you know, a, a, a, a, almost like a calling card, right-
- MRMel Robbins
Yup.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... like I'd grown up with. And I open the door, and this guy's standing there, and he comes straight from work, and his car's a mess, and it's dirty and it's half-broken.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And the backseat is full of, like, just complete junk. And then he opens the car door for me. And I was like, "Wow, chivalry is alive." So all the things I had on my checklist that you kinda think you look for, none of that was there, and then he surprised me with this. And I was like, "Wow, this is interesting."
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what's interesting, and I wanna stop here-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... is that this is an example of your frame of reference.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct.Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Because your frame of reference growing up in just the neighborhood and the community that you did is that the cologne and the fancy cars and all those things is my frame of reference for a good catch.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And then, he shows up and doesn't match it, but then all of a sudden because you were like, "Hmm..."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... the door was opened.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Exactly. And we went to, like, a B restaurant.
- MRMel Robbins
A B restaurant.
- 28:10 – 29:30
2 powerful ways to use frame of reference in your life.
- MRMel Robbins
and the first way that you introduced it is a way that you can use it to truly understand and be separate from another person's opinions, emotions, expectations, and the example was your dad.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
So understanding, in hindsight, that his frame of reference is growing up on a mountain, the toilet's a hole in the floor, only four boys from the village get to go to school, every girl in the village, because there's no contraception, is gonna get married, that's my frame of reference. And because you can understand that, it allows you to be separate from it-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... hold space for it, and actually still be able to say for yourself, "That's not gonna be my frame of reference."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And one more thing to add to that, that is 100%, and it's not personal.
- MRMel Robbins
And so I love that you have first shown us how you use a frame of reference to truly understand where someone's coming from and to unhook emotionally, but now you're explaining a second way to use it, which is when you meet somebody like Tom and he is completely different than anybody that is in your frame of reference and your belief system,
- 29:30 – 30:15
3 questions to ask yourself to determine YOUR frame of reference.
- MRMel Robbins
you're explaining how when you really have the courage to examine, "What is my frame of reference? What do I believe about family? What do I believe the rules are that make you a good person? What do I believe about purpose and meaning and what means, it means to be a good daughter or a this or a that?" When you can see your own, you can now have the power to start to challenge it based on the people that you meet or ideas that you bump into or things that you study in school, and that's so powerful.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Thank you. I love the, the, the way you brought it together on... It didn't really dawn on me as I was talking that it's the, the two, it's the frame of reference for somebody else, but then it's also your own frame
- 30:15 – 34:30
What we are too quick to do that damages relationships.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
of reference.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes. And we are so quick to defend our frame of reference as the right-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... way to look at something and the only way to look at something, and that if you don't fit in this, you're out, or if you don't understand me, you're out. And so I think it's a very powerful self-awareness tool that you're explaining.... for both understanding and being able to live in that kind of...
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... messy, sticky middle part where your emotions aren't the same as others, the way you think about things aren't the same as others, and to also challenge yourself. So I have to ask, what the hell happened?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Like, the eight weeks come up. Do you have to go back to the UK? Do you tell your father? Are you getting married?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Like, what is going on?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So eight weeks, eight weeks comes.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And we, we... Literally, for four weeks, we're like, "It's fun. It's a fling. It's fun. It's a fling." And we're just seeing each other all the time. So it was, like, the last week, and we go to, uh, Dockweiler Beach, and we're making s'mores with his friends.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And so we're sitting there making s'mores, and his friend turns around, and he's like, "So, um, you know, Lisa's leaving. Like, what are you guys gonna do?" And he didn't say a word. He just turned to me, and he's like, "I'm gonna come see you in London. Is it okay if I come in, like, two weeks?" And I was like, "Yeah." He didn't even have a passport. So in, like, two weeks, he booked a flight, got, like, an emergency passport, didn't even have a suitcase. He took s- he took his mom's pink suitcase.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Like, I literally can still see him walking down the r- like, the thing with his pink suitcase. And I was like, "Who is this guy? I love him so much." Um, but he... So he jumps on a plane, and he just comes. Now, I've never introduced the guy to my dad ever.
- MRMel Robbins
Never introduced any...
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Never.
- MRMel Robbins
... guy?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
No. And my-
- MRMel Robbins
And now you're gonna introduce him to Tom Bilyeu, who's got a pink suitcase and has flown in from the United States?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes, exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Are you out of your mind?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I was out of my mind.
- MRMel Robbins
What did you feel?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So, well, my parents are divorced. So I used to live with my mom. So he was gonna stay with my mom. So I contemplated-
- MRMel Robbins
We're gonna hide him.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... do I hide him (laughs) for two weeks?
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- 34:30 – 37:10
The moment you introduce a special partner to your family.
- MRMel Robbins
and we're at the part of the story where she is having him come to London. He's about to meet her dad. So Lisa, what happened next?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I tell Tom, "He's gonna ask you a thousand questions. Remember, he's just a Greek dad that cares about his daughter. So when he asks you questions, he just wants to know that you're good for me. So please, if you... Just come from, like, he's a c- a father that cares, not that he hates you." Right? So set him up there. Then my dad, I've said to him, "I've never introduced you to a guy before, Dad. I'm 21 years old. I really like this guy. It would be great if you could welcome him."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"It would mean a lot to me."
- MRMel Robbins
What was your dad's response?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"Okay." But here's the funny thing. Now, my dad didn't think it was gonna last.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So he was like, "Yeah, I just thought, 'Why rock the boat?'" I may as well say, "Okay," Tom meets my dad. He asks him barely even one question.
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, your dad barely asked Tom any questions?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes. So remember, I've set him up, and now I'm like, "Oh, dear Lord." And it was because my dad was like... I showed him respect. I fed him. I greeted him. Like, we were very polite. "I wanna make sure." My dad's very polite. He just was like, you know, "How's the weather? What's America like?" It wasn't like, "What do you do for a living? What's your goals?" You know, like... So it was very, like, not like my dad. So even though he was welcoming, and again, in hindsight, he just didn't think we would last, so he was like, "Well, you greet him. You show politeness. You always show respect." But-
- MRMel Robbins
How, how... What did you do? 'Cause you know that this is not going...
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I was unsure. I was like... Yeah, I w- Well, the funny thing is, I didn't know it was a sign of what he was actually thinking.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Because when someone acts out of accordance to what you expect, now, as having done all the mental work-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... the first thing I would say to myself is, "If I was writing a script, what would have to be true for my dad, who always asks a thousand questions, not to ask Tom any?"
- MRMel Robbins
That he doesn't like him.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And the, the answer would be he doesn't like him, or he has resentment towards him, or he has a threat. My dad is the center of my, you know, center of my attention.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And so if my dad doesn't approve of him, and now my attention is going elsewhere-... could that be why? I didn't know. But those are kind of, like, you come up with conclusions. But again, it's not about me.
- MRMel Robbins
Here's what I just wanna hover on for a minute, because this is life, the ability to navigate these moments where somebody's behavior or their emotions do not align with what you wish. This is reminding
- 37:10 – 43:05
A story you’ve never heard from Mel when she was engaged to Chris.
- MRMel Robbins
me of a story I don't think I've ever told, which is when Chris and I got engaged, and Chris lives in the East, and I grew up in the Midwest. And like most families and parents, now that, you know, I'm kind of at the age I am, I understand my mother's frame of reference now.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But back then, I didn't. And there was this thing that happened between us that really pissed me off and hurt me. And it was this. As Chris and I got engaged, and as the wedding approached, my mom became more and more bristly towards him and snarky about his family. And it bothered me, and I did not have this tool that we're talking about in terms of being able to take a step back and not get all triggered and emotional but- but go, "Well, what is her frame of reference here? What might be true for her to be, in her mind and her frame of reference, to have her, someone I love, and someone who I know loves me, act like this?" And not having that tool, I, of course, just was spun around like a to- "Why is she doing this?" And then you get angry, and then you literally start interacting with each other through emotion instead of being able to unhook yourself and slow yourself down. And so here's what happened. I was talking to a friend, and she said, "Well, I think you just need to talk to your mom. And maybe what you could say is it really hurts you that you're chilly and kind of, like, bristly toward his family, and you're a very warm person, and you're acting in a way that's very cold and judgy. And I need you to act consistently with this. I need you to pretend you picked him for me."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
"I need you to show up in a way that is consistent with you being happy because you picked him for me." And do you wanna know what she said?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
She said, "I didn't pick him for you, and I'm not happy."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I was so pissed. And then here's though what I started to piece together, and this is the interesting thing. Even the request made her warmth come back online and made her change.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
However, I can now use your tool, frame of reference, and I can absolutely see what was going on, because she grew up in a huge farm family in Upstate New York, and my dad grew up in New Jersey in a working class family that had a bakery.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
The second that they got married, right outta college in Kansas, and ended up in Michigan, they never saw their family, ever, ever, because my mom's family was too busy running a farm. So who's gonna take care of 100 head of cattle? My dad's family's running a bakery. Nobody was flying around or traveling like they do today. Her frame of reference is once you move away, you never see your family.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And so I can now use that tool and go back in time and say, "Of course she didn't pick a guy that was on the East Coast for her daughter, 'cause she wanted somebody that was gonna have her end up in the Midwest."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
And I totally get it now. And so you can... Using this, whether you're using it today for difficult conversation to really try to hold space for what somebody else's reaction might be and also what you need to say, or you're moving forward in your life, examining your own frame of reference or helping you understand others, or I think this is an incredibly powerful tool to go backwards.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
1000%. And what's interesting with everything that you just broke down is your mom probably wasn't even aware of her own frame of reference or why she was behaving like that, because if you don't do the work, you know this, if you don't have a growth mindset, if you don't actually look to try to understand yourself, you will be reactive. And when someone's reactive, sometimes they don't actually have clarity on why they're reacting. And so as you do this process, please bear in mind that they, that person may not actually know their frame of reference.
- MRMel Robbins
I think you should assume they don't.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Y- yeah, actually, that's probably best, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
And don't tell them-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
No, no, no, exactly, yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... what you think their frame of reference is.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Do not know because then the response would be, "Oh, you know me better than I know myself." It's like you're doing this for your own work so that you know how to show up, how to communicate, and actually work towards your goals without someone hindering it. That's the goal, right? It's like if you have a dream, what life do you want? How are you gonna get that life? What's getting in your way? And these are all tools that you can use so that you can keep moving forward towards that dream without holding back when someone comes to you, whether it's a mom that you care about and is upset about a decision that you made.
- MRMel Robbins
I love this so much, Lisa. This is so powerful because it is at the heart of every interaction and every relationship. And one thing I also wanna say about this is it takes time.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Do not just start regurgitating frame of reference, frame of reference, and assume that you're suddenly healed.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
No.
- MRMel Robbins
This is something that takes time.... understanding yourself, knowing yourself and your own frame of reference takes time, especially when you want to navigate in this space that we all need to learn how to navigate, which is where you are in relation to other people.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- 43:05 – 46:25
What Lisa Bilyeu’s father said when Tom asked for her father’s blessing.
- MRMel Robbins
what happens? He meets your dad.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So he meets my dad, and he's very quiet, doesn't ask a lot of questions. I... Tom and I just get along so well. There's just something, connection between us that we cannot describe. We just keep leaning into it. And this was before cell phones, so we would email each other. He'd come back to America. So we tried to find ways to be together.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I would come to America for three months. I would try and like... Tom would get me a job on a movie set. I would work un- you know, for three months kind of, you know, as like a PA, and then I would go back to England. Then Tom would come and visit. So we did that on and off for about, um, a year.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And then Tom proposes. But here's the thing. Being a very traditional Greek family that I have, I've always said to him it was very important that he gets my dad's blessing if it ever happened.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So, of course, Tom goes to my dad and sits down and says, "Andreas, I love your daughter. I want to marry her." And my dad says no.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs) Oh my God. (laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
You're so ... man. I can't believe you don't know this story. Yeah. My dad actually said no. So-
- MRMel Robbins
What did Tom do?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So first of all, what happened was he asks him, and my dad then had the thousand questions.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh. Now we're in.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
That's, that's when the thousand questions came up. What is your plan? How are you going to provide if you don't have a, like, a, a job right now that's paying a lot? Like, you live in a one... you know, an apartment. How are you... What about kids? If you have kids, what job are you going to have so you can pay for the kids? Like, it was all very traditional questions.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Um, and then afterwards, then my dad said, "No. I..."
- MRMel Robbins
No?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
No.
- MRMel Robbins
Based on Tom's answers?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Bas- yeah. He basically was like, "I, I still don't want you to marry my daughter." And so Tom-
- MRMel Robbins
Was the fact that Tom wasn't Greek also a big issue?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Oh, that was like one of the biggest.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
That was actually the biggest. It was more the religion first. Then it was the career path of how you're going to take care of me and the children that we're ago- apparently going to have. Um, so, see, he didn't even ask me if I was gonna have children. He just assumed, and that's why he asked Tom that. So Tom, like the man that I loved did, he's like, "Andreas, I respect you. Thank you for taking the time to speak to me. I'm still going to propose to her. I understand I don't have your blessing. But I promise you, the man that you see today will not be the man that ends up being with your daughter. And I promise I will provide for her." So that's what Tom said to him.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And so Tom, when he proposed, he told me very honestly, "Your dad said no, but he's..."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"... and still knows that I..." So my dad, even after that though, was very respectful. He paid for the wedding. He came to the wedding. Like, he was very gracious. He was just... As I was talking to him, I'm going to leave, go to America. So remember all the things that we've set up. "I'm daddy's girl. I really want to please him."
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Frame of reference.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I'm now saying yes to someone that my dad doesn't want me to marry. My dad was just very adamant. Like, he kept saying, "You sh- maybe you should wait. What's the rush? Don't put a down payment on the reception yet." Like, he was very kind of like... He was respectful, but very tried to push it off.
- 46:25 – 47:15
How to think about the big and small decisions in your life.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Doors with Gwyneth Paltrow. That metaphor, I think about all the time. For people that may not know, Gwyneth Paltrow's running for the train. In one scene, she makes the train, they show her life. They cut, and then they do it again. She's running for the train, and she doesn't make the train. And they cut, and then her life. The difference of just making that train. That's really how I think about decisions. One decision can take you on a completely different path. So what are the decisions that you make? I love him so much, I will marry him. But how do I navigate that with my dad who doesn't want me to marry, who, who doesn't want me to go? So I stepped back and I said, "Okay, I can't have my dad dictate." But that was a thought, like a fleeting thought there in the fall.
- MRMel Robbins
Of course. And for a lot of people, they do.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah. I'm just honest. I try not to hide around anything. And the truth is,
- 47:15 – 49:30
How to handle people in your life that you disagree with.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
hopefully, if nature takes its course, my dad dies before me. So now think about when I'm 50, if my dad's not around. I've now said no to the person that I love. And it may not have worked out, but what if it did, and I made a decision for somebody else that I have to live with for the rest of my life? So that was how I processed, "I can't do what my dad wants. I have to do what I want." Now, how do you navigate the conversation? 'Cause I didn't want my dad out of my life. Going back to I actually care. So I said, "Okay, what do I know about humans?" Everyone wants to be seen and heard, period. My dad, if I shut him down, and I'm like, "I'm gonna do..." Right? We said it earlier.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"I'm gon- I'm gonna do me. Don't... Who you, you think you are to tell me what to do?" Like, "You go, girl." Like, all of that.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Like... It isn't reality.
- MRMel Robbins
True.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Because the reality is, I did care, and I wanted to show my dad respect. So I said, "Okay, going into this conversation, you're not gonna back down, Lisa. You are going to marry the man of your dreams. It may not work out. You have to embrace that everything you fight for may not work out, but it may. But either way, I have to know I'm making this decision for myself. Otherwise, I won't forgive myself, because I won't know if it works out or not." So.
- MRMel Robbins
And here's the thing. What I love is that you were willing to make the decision with the mindset, what if it does?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
What if it does work out? And in that moment that you isolated, where your dad has said no-You are making the decision that you are gonna go ahead and marry Tom. I think at some point in every person's life, there is that collision between somebody else's expectations, and hopes and dreams, and wants and desires, and yours. Whether it's a job, or moving somewhere, or choosing to live openly in terms of who you are and who you love.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And... in that moment, literally
- 49:30 – 50:05
The 6 words to ask yourself when you’re worried things won’t work.
- MRMel Robbins
putting the bet on, "Well, what if it does work out? What if this collision is momentary? And I'm willing to acknowledge that this person's frame of reference is not the same as mine, and I'm just gonna step one step further onto that train, knowing it's taking me in a direction I feel called to go-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
...but what if it works out?" Like, that's a beautiful way to inch your way forward in your life.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Agreed, and I think the poison of our brains is when we ask ourselves, "What if it doesn't? And now I've gone against the family. I've gone against the beliefs.
- 50:05 – 54:40
How to flip your mindset when you’re doing something scary.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I made a big deal." So let's say you're studying something, and you've gone to college, and you tell everybody. Even if they don't agree with you, you're gonna go do this thing, and you spent $100,000 and four years of your life, and you go to the job, and you freaking hate it. And now you stay in the job because you're so embarrassed to tell everybody you actually hate it, right? That you can never predict what's going to happen. And so I have the ability and I- p- just... The ability 'cause I've just promised myself that even if it doesn't work out, I'm gonna be freaking proud that I gave it a chance in the first place. And if I make that decision now, when I get there, if it fails, I just go, "Oh, I knew that it could fail. I just gave myself permission to get started in the first place." So even with my marriage, I had to say to my dad, "Even if my marriage doesn't work out, I have to give it a shot and I won't feel bad and go back." Like, I'm not gonna be that person that's gonna go lick my wounds back to my dad being like, "Dad, you were right." It's like, "No, I gave it a shot and I'm proud that I did."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Now, the thing with how you'd communicate that is that next step in, like, this whole humongous, like-
- MRMel Robbins
(gasps) Oh, I just got something really big.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So, in the scenario where you make a decision-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
...and it turns out that it doesn't work out-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
...and you come back with your tail between your legs and you're at that moment with your dad, right?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Or anybody in your life who's like, "I told you so. See, I was right." Here's what I just got. In the moment of the collision, and we're just gonna use your story-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
...as the model for this, and your dad is saying, "No, this is not the right person for you," what he's actually saying is, "He's not the right person in my story about what happens in your life."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
But that collision is the moment where you get to decide who is the right person for your story about your life. And it doesn't matter, honestly, if the relationship goes the distance or not, because obviously, if you are making the right decision for your story in that moment, they are meant to be a part of your story.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I a thousand percent agree, and I think what we instinctually do is if it fails, we then beat ourselves up and-
- MRMel Robbins
And we think somebody else is right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
...and we think the other person's right.
- MRMel Robbins
And it doesn't make them right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Exactly, and what you have to do in order to prevent that... Because I know that, right? Like, I try not to, like... Okay, I know this about me. Like, know thyself. Know exactly what makes you tick, know exactly what doesn't make you tick. I know myself. I knew that, "Oh, my God, if it fails, I'm gonna feel really bad." And, "Oh, my God, now everyone will think I'm a loser," and... Right? That story you're telling yourself.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So in that moment, going, "How do I make sure that even if it doesn't work out, I don't actually have that knock-on effect, because I know it's gonna be dentri- detrimental to my self-esteem and how I feel about myself?" So I put in actions now in order for the future me to thank me and feel good about the decisions I've made. So that's why I say I did the process. Okay, my dad's gonna die before me. Okay. That's actually true that I don't know if my relationship's gonna work out or not, but either way, my dad may not be around, or obviously eventually he won't be around to even know if it works or not. So I have to make a decision for me, not for him. So I was very concrete on the decision I was making. (air whooshing)
- MRMel Robbins
Lisa, this is so powerful. I am getting so much about this concept of frame of reference in my own life right now. A- and looking at the past, and here's what I wanna do. I wanna take a pause, hear a word from our sponsors, because they're bringing this to you at zero cost. And when we return, let's unpack this tool for real, and let's really make sure that you, as you're listening, you leave knowing exactly how to use this in your life, with yourself, with your relationships. I also have listener questions. You're gonna love all of it, so don't go anywhere. We're gonna be waiting for you after a short break. Welcome back. It's your friend Mel. I'm so glad you're still here. I am learning so much from Lisa Bilyeau. I know you are too. Her book is Radical Confidence, and she is teaching us about this relationship tool. I freaking love this thing. It's called frame of reference, and Lisa, what I wanna do now is unpack this even further. (air whooshing) I love this idea of rolling the clock forward, and I can give you an example of how I used this without realizing it in my own life-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
...to make a really, really big decision. So Chris and I, we... You know... As you know, we have three kids, and, um, we had two daughters,
- 54:40 – 55:30
How Chris and Mel decided to have a third child.
- MRMel Robbins
and Sawyer was five, and Kendall was... literally had just turned four. They're, like, 17 months apart. And, um, we were trying to decide, "Do we wanna have another kid?" And in that moment, everybody has an opinion about this kind of thing, but I made the decision by going...... I don't really wanna think about it for my life right now. But if I roll the clock forward-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... 50 years from now, and I close my eyes, do I wanna see two adult children or three? Decision made.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And what's interesting about your story is you and Tom ultimately go on and get married. And another collision point with you and your parents was the decision that you and Tom made that, "We're not gonna have kids."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Could you share
- 55:30 – 56:35
Do THIS before you have a difficult conversation.
- MRMel Robbins
more about having that conversation with your parents?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah. So, um, every time I have a conversation, I've done the internal work first, because I've realized that until I've actually realized how strong I am, why I believe what I believe, why I've made the decision I've made, I understand that I'm, um, permeable to other people's opinions and thoughts and expectations. And so I have to do the inner work first before I ever bring something up to some- to somebody else to have that communication because I gotta know what I'm saying. And because I find myself, again just knowing myself, I start blubbering when I don't have clarity. "Well, you know, oh, well, it could be, it..." That means you don't have clarity. So have clarity in why you are making the decision, so that you can articulate it. So when it came to having kids, it was really hard because there was such a loud voice in my head. Now this is back, let's say, uh, it was maybe 15 years ago.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So women weren't talking like they do about being child-free. It wasn't heard of really, especially as a Greek woman. So what was interesting is I kept pushing it, pushing it, pushing it, pushing it. And people, being the external sources, family, everyone,
- 56:35 – 59:10
Listen to this if you’ve chosen to not have children.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
assumed one of two things, because I didn't have children: my marriage wasn't stable or I naturally couldn't have kids.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh. 'Cause that was their frame of reference.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
That was their frame of reference. So when I kept getting asked, "Is everything okay? You and Tom all right?" Like, you know, "Oh, have you been to a fertility doctor," right? Like, it's all frame of... And I'm like, "I'm not even trying! Like, why do you keep asking me?" But it was their frame of reference. So once I started to work through, "Do I actually want children?" Like, I know people keep saying it, and I actually told Tom when I first married him that I wanted four. I'm a different person now. Like, the neurons in my brain have rewired. I think differently. I have different ambitions, different hobbies. I'm not that person that I was when I met Tom, and so do I actually want children? And I just had to ask myself the question. Now what's weird is, a lot of people may, uh, resonate with this, whether it's children or something else-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... sometimes you find it starts in, like, a little whisper in your head that you try to ignore. "Nope, not gonna hear her." And then she just gets louder and louder and louder, till eventually you're just like, "Do I actually want kids?" And so instead of just judging myself, I stepped back, and I said, "Why do people want kids?" People keep saying legacy. I've never actually asked myself what legacy means to me. Frame of reference. Legacy means to me that you do something that actually lives past you. Amazing. I don't have to have children to do that. Okay. Let's write that down. Next thing. Why do people think I have to... "You don't want to die alone," is what my dad used to say. All right. Well, if I don't want children, is it worth having them all my entire life, just so I don't die alone? That's not fair on them, let alone me. Okay. Nope, doesn't make sense. Don't die alone. Have great friendships. Build community. Like, there's other ways to not die alone. And so I literally just went through the checklist of why I think I need kids. And everything that I had believed, everything I had believed, I actually disagreed with-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... once I started to actually ask myself. And then the final thing to all of this is, okay, I love the idea of having a little Tom running around, because the truth is, I think we can all get caught up in the idea of the glory of something.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Build a business. The glory is you make so much money, you never have to worry about money. Have kids. The glory is that you never have to do anything when you're older and your kids are gonna take care of you, right? You can, you can have little kids that love on you, and when you feel badly about yourself and the world hates you, your kids are gonna come and give you a cuddle. There are so many reasons why I l- will have the idea of kids. But what does that look like in reality? So
- 59:10 – 1:05:00
Use this technique before you make any change in your life.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I call it, what does your average Wednesday look like? Like, actually a Wednesday.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
What does it actually look like if you're working and you've got kids, if you're not working and you have kids, if you don't have kids and you're working? Like, every possible scenario, paint what a Wednesday looks like.
- MRMel Robbins
And you could do this for anything.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Anything.
- MRMel Robbins
Anything. Any change you wanna make.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
What does it look like on a Wednesday if I decide to cut gluten out? What does it look like on a Wednesday if I go back to art school?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
What would have, what would have to be true-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... for me to cut gluten and go to art school at the same time? "All right. Well, my husband's a baker, so I have to tell him to either make gluten-free bread," right? Like-
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... then it takes you into action.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Of what you actually have to do to have that life that you want on an average Wednesday. So I sat with Tom, and we had the communication that we always have. "Babe, how do you feel about kids? How do you wanna function?" And he was like, "I'm very ambitious. You knew that about me. I'm not gonna be the father that comes home at 7:00 PM. I need my cognitive load to be very on point, so I'm not gonna be waking up during the week to, to, to change the diapers." He's like, "I love you. I'll support you in any way, but these are my, how I wanna show up." I have to respect that. He's my husband. He has an opinion just like I do. So-
- MRMel Robbins
Frame of reference.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... frame of reference. So on my average Wednesday, I took him and his thoughts, and I said, "Cool, he's not waking up in the middle of the night. So either I am or I have a nanny. How do I feel about that? Well, I don't really want a stranger in my house. Okay. So Lisa, you're waking up in the middle of the night. But you love what you do. You love crushing it at work. You love being a beast. You love growing a team. You love creating content. How do you do that if you've got a kid and you don't have a nanny?" All right, well... Right? And you can see-
- MRMel Robbins
You know what's interesting about listening to you unpack this? Is that if you're somebody who wants kids, or you're like me and you already have 'em, my frame of reference answering every one of those questions is completely different than Lisa's.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And yet two things can be true at the same time.And that's how you navigate this understanding of others and understanding of yourself. You know what I forgot to ask you?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
What?
- MRMel Robbins
Whatever happened with your dad and Tom? Like, what is their relationship like now?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
(laughs) Oh, my God. So you wanna talk about how people can shift their frame of reference?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So my dad goes to s- from somebody who's, "How are you gonna take care of my daughter? I'm not sure I believe in you. I don't know how you're gonna do it," to we're five years in at Quest. My dad doesn't quite understand, like, the ginormous company that it had grown into. Grew at 57000%. We went from zero to a billion dollars in five years.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
(laughs) Yeah. So I went from stay-at-home wife supporting my husband to helping him build it in five years, to talk about how much skillsets I had to learn and build, and the confidence that I was, like, feeling inferior all the time. But I just kept going. But the results are, five years later, we're announced as the second-fastest growing company in North America. And my du- my dad comes for vacation. So it's the first time we go from poor, not, you know, n- not having a company, just kind of, like, really trying to make ends meet, to then this company. And we take him around the facilities. And we at that point had 300,000 facil- uh, 300,000 square feet. We had 3,000 employees.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- 1:05:00 – 1:09:35
How do you correct a mistake you made as a parent?
- MRMel Robbins
one. This comes from Patty. "How can you correct a mistake? I took confidence away from my daughter, who is now in college. I think I messed this up big time. I think I made her feel like I didn't believe in her and her ability, and I feel like I ruined her."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Wow. Okay. Wow. Patty, thank you, first of all, for being so open and honest. I think it's very hard to admit when you've made a mistake. That's a huge freaking win already that she is thinking about that.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Number two, I would say you only know what you know. And so you did the best you could at the time, and now you've grown, and maybe you've realized differences of how you should have maybe have behaved or a- interacted. But you didn't know better. You do now. And then I would just say, thirdly, I'm always the person to just be honest. And I would literally read that question out to my daughter. I would say, "I love you so much. You mean so much to me, and I feel like I've made a mistake. And this isn't about me. This isn't about you making me feel better," 'cause that's gonna be the trick, right? You don't want her to get into that conversation and have the daughter console the mom.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, that's good. That's really good.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
So if you're not going into the conversation with your daughter or anybody because you think you screwed up...
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... we do go into those conversations wanting to feel relief from the guilt that we feel.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yes, we do.
- MRMel Robbins
So what do you go into that conversation with instead?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
What is your intention? If your intention is to actually help your daughter gain her confidence back, this isn't about you. Take yourself out the freaking equation. Don't make yourself part of the victimness of this situation. And I mean that with compassion. Hopefully, you know that. But, like, I would just go, "This isn't about me. I actually feel like I've done something to my daughter." I would go into that conversation like, "I love you so much. I really care about you. I feel like I've made a mistake, but this isn't about me. I just need to know how you feel, and I'd love to work with you in order to fix it. Is this true or is this my own figment of my own perception of how things have been? And I want to leave space that you can be very open. This isn't about protecting my emotions." 'Cause that's very important, because your daughter...If her true thing is to actually get the truth, you need to give space for her daughter to be honest. But if you're going in to make yourself feel better, and you expect and want an answer from her, you're setting yourself and your daughter up for disaster. And the conversation won't go well. And if you actually care about her, based on what that letter says, or that question, then do not go in with the idea of you're trying to fix your own emotion. This isn't about you.
- MRMel Robbins
And I would add something. I personally think that the frame of reference piece could be extremely helpful for you understanding why you may have acted how you did.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
You don't go in explaining yourself, I agree with you, because putting the focus on your daughter, and listening, and what she needs, because your own inability to deal with your own emotions and fears is what caused this-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... if in fact it did. Second thing I would just say is that human beings are built for resilience. Don't sell your daughter short.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, just 'cause she's struggling right now, and yeah, you probably did do something. Uh, we all do, and we don't mean it.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But taking responsibility and standing also in the space of you are gonna get through this, and you are confident, you're not wrecked or ruined in even thinking that brings your daughter even further down. Like, hold a higher standard for what's possible in your daughter-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... as you're going into that.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
And one more thing to just even pile onto that is there's no way you are solely responsible for somebody else's behavior, confidence, uh, or self-esteem. Zero. So while I say yes, you should talk to her and everything else, you've gotta give yourself compassion, homie. Like, there is no way you are the sole being of everything that's happened to her. There's so much complication to a human, right? The, the condition of when they're, how and where they were birthed, the, their g- their gut biome, their interactions with their first teacher, the, maybe they got bullied and maybe they didn't. Um, what was their diet like as a kid? If they were only on sugar, then I'm sure that their brain was inflamed, so they actually feel less l-, uh, more c- they feel less confident. Like, there's so much complexity to what makes a human that I honestly want to give you compassion as well to say this isn't on, all on you, so give yourself that grace as well.
- MRMel Robbins
And focus on your daughter.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Correct.
- MRMel Robbins
This isn't about relieving-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
... your stuff. Got it. Go to a therapist
- 1:09:35 – 1:10:50
Is there something wrong with being an introvert?
- MRMel Robbins
for that. (laughs)
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Right?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
True. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Here's another question. Um, can you be successful even when you have an introverted personality type? The reason I ask is because I'm 40 years old, and for years, I've been told by people I meet in new situations, "You're so quiet. Speak up," and it really annoys me. Why is it not okay to be a bit quiet? Or should I make an effort to change and be more outgoing and loud?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Well, there's no shoulds. It's only if she wants to be more outgoing and loud based on her own needs, not other people's expectations. So I think that's where she needs to start. If- it seems like she's very comfortable being an introvert. So the question is, why do you feel like you have to please other people, number one. Number two, what does success mean to you? 'Cause she's like, "Can you be successful?"
- MRMel Robbins
I am gonna come back to frame of reference. Anybody that comes to you and says, "Why are you so quiet? You should speak up more," that's their frame of reference.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And you need to create... Well, first, you need to understand your own, but then Lisa gave you the advice. What does success mean to you? And there's a, a small piece of research that I would add here, which is, if it does matter to you to make more money, if it does matter to you to be perceived
- 1:10:50 – 1:12:48
If you want a raise at work, you need to do this.
- MRMel Robbins
as more successful, the research is very clear that the only thing that tends to translate to a promotion or a pay increase for women in the workplace is when your contributions are made known. Which means, in that specific setting of advocating for yourself and being louder about the contribution you are making at work, that is important if getting paid more is important to you.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But being louder or more outgoing when you're first meeting people, that's up to you.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah. I think it stems from the goal. What are you trying to get to? And then what skills do you need to adopt to get there, period. That is how I think about my life in every single, um, avenue. So for her, what are you trying to get to? What is that success for you look like? And to your point, is if then it means you have to advocate for yourself, then yeah, you're gonna have to become more of an extrovert and, you know, come outta your shell. So that will dictate how you show up.
- MRMel Robbins
I have a question that I think is really gonna resonate with you. This is from Marina. "Hello, Mel and Lisa. From a young age, I was raised to keep my head down, to be small, and to not want a lot, and even writing to you both now feels strange."
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
"The old me wouldn't dare." And she goes on to write that she doesn't wanna feel small anymore. "What wisdom can you give me to push myself to do more with my life and to take the small steps every day toward my dream?" But what advice do you have for someone like Marina who feels lost, who feels out of touch with her ambition?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah. I think clarity's key. So A, I wanna say just applaud this woman, because holy smoke, she said that even writing that question made her uneasy. So do you wanna talk about a s- a step-by-step in the right direction? Hells yeah, homie. Congratulations. I'm so damn proud of you. Um, and really
- 1:12:48 – 1:20:20
Feeling stuck when it comes to your dreams? Here’s advice.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
the key is to have clarity on what you're actually trying to get to. I have a feeling in her question she doesn't actually know what she's looking for. And this is the problem that I think a lot of us face is, if you don't have clarity, um, what's the, the quote? Like, a fuzzy target is hard to hit.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So it's like, if you don't have such clarity on what you're trying to get to, I have no idea what steps I need to take. So let me just give you a bit of a, like a, um, a method that I use on how I figure out-
- MRMel Robbins
Great. Okay.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
... goals and stuff. So I go, okay, what is my mission? Everything's based around the thing that's gonna help me get up out of bed every single day when I feel terrible. We all know it. We have those days. We feel badly about ourselves. It's our hormones-
- MRMel Robbins
It's hard to imagine you like that.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Oh, dude, I'm like that all the time.... same.
- MRMel Robbins
No, seriously.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
I am.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, you know, when you look at your resume, it's hard... Does Lisa Bilyeu ever wake up and feel bad? Like, she is confident, she is driven, she is clear. I mean, when you were in that eight-year cycle-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... for yourself, where you were just in the monotony of the day-to-day, staying at home, you were bored, you felt insecure-
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... where do you start when you're there?
- LBLisa Bilyeu
Okay. That's a great question. So when you know you don't like where you are, it's a great start. But again, if I don't know where I'm going, I don't know how to put a plan together. So let's say I was the stay-at... Well, I was the stay-at-home wife. I started to realize I had been swallowing my dreams for eight years. Why? Why was I doing that? I had to start there. What was the conditioning and the thought process that made me think, like, I couldn't speak up? My husband's shown me every step of the way that he loves me and he'll support me in whatever I want to do. And so it all came to, what w- got me stuck in the first place? That was important to me. And so I backtracked, and I wrote the script. What was the things that I was saying to myself? It was the word when. "I will do this when."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
"I will tell Tom that I don't like cooking for him when we have enough money that I can then go do what I want." "I will go after my dreams when Tom's made enough money, and we have enough money to go make movies." "I will, um, speak up about not having kids when. I will..." Right? Like the when is so powerful to us that keeps us stuck. And what I had to ask myself is, "What happens if the when never came?" So I'm going to do X, Y, and Z when this happens. What if that thing never happens? What now? Now you have a choice. And so taking away that when was very powerful for me. So now I have to figure out what I'm actually then going to do with my life. What, what do I actually want to do? So of course, it was making movies. How do I articulate that to the people in my life that I'm about to make a change in my life? 'Cause to her point, she doesn't know how to.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
It's hard to speak up.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LBLisa Bilyeu
So I had to have the clarity of what I'm trying to do. So clarity is the goal. It's the what, the how much, and by when.
- MRMel Robbins
That's a great little tip because for any of you that are sitting there listening, going, "But I don't know what I want. But I don't know what I want," Lisa's basically going, "That's not true." Because somewhere down in the back of your mind, you have a timeline where you say, "When this happens, then I'll do X." So if you answer that, "When I can pay my bills, then I'll do the X. When I don't have to do this, then I'll do that. When..." A lot of people write in, "When the kids are grown up-
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