How to Stop Procrastinating, According to the World’s Leading Expert (It’s Not What You Think)

Mel Robbins 0:00 What are we talking about? The big P, procrastination.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 0:02 Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, "Procrastination," you know, "There's a good side to procrastination." (Imitates buzzer) Are we born this way? No.

Mel Robbins 0:13 What?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 0:14 20% of adult men and women are chronic procrastinators. That's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism. This is somebody who will not RSVP on time and wait till the gauge goes on empty before they get more gas or get the third bill before they pay it.

Mel Robbins 0:35 That's me. (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 0:35 To them-

Mel Robbins 0:36 That's me.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 0:37 Yeah, of course, 20% of people-

Mel Robbins 0:38 What do you mean, of course?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 0:40 You showed up 20 minutes late.

Mel Robbins 0:41 What happens in your brain when you procrastinate?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 0:44 Why are you going there? The least effective technique, the technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is- (ticking sound)

Mel Robbins 0:58 Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad you tuned in today because today you and I have a doozy of a topic. This is something we all struggle with. What are we talking about? The big P, procrastination. That's right, we're going there. Is procrastination a coping mechanism? How do I stop? How do I focus? How can I help someone I love who is a procrastinator? Why the hell do I do it when I know it's not good for me? I feel like I do my best work when I'm under pressure, is that procrastination? I'll tell you what, I wanna know the answers to these questions. Don't you? I bet you do. My mission for you and me today is for us to understand, what is procrastination exactly? Now, I brought in the best of the best, Dr. Joseph Ferrari. I can tell you right now, this professor is fast like a Ferrari. He has got one hell of a personality and I gotta be honest with you, when I thought about the world's leading expert on procrastination, I did not think about the word personality, but boy oh boy, does he have a big one. And he's also warned me that once he gets going, he revs that engine up and he just can't stop. So who is Dr. Joseph Ferrari? He's a renowned psychologist and professor of psychology at DePaul University, he's an international researcher, author of seven bestselling books on this topic, and he is here to get you moving forward. Dr. Joseph Ferrari is here to cut through the crap and deliver you the truth. He's gonna tell you that you can unlearn it, and he's gonna give you tools that you can start using today to stop procrastinating and to actually overcome it for good. Why? Because you don't have to live the rest of your life doing this to yourself. You can stop hating yourself for never following through and you can start doing your best work. There is a solution to procrastination, and our guest today is going to teach it to you. This episode will enlighten, inform, and inspire you to change once and for all. And yes, this is the biggest takeaway regarding the science, change is possible. So let's not procrastinate on jumping into this any further, we're gonna just let it rip. Please help me welcome Professor Joseph Ferrari to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 3:17 Thank you for inviting me.

Mel Robbins 3:18 So let's just start with the question, what is procrastination?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 3:22 Okay. Procrastination is not the same as delaying. If I'm stuck on the tarmac and my plane isn't getting off and I'm four hours, uh, late for some appointment, I, I didn't procrastinate, that's delay. Uh, it's not the same as pondering. Pondering is to pause and to stop and think, uh, because you're actively thinking about, "What should I be doing?" All right? It's, it's a misperception that procrastination is poor time management. What is the procrastination? It's the intentionally, intentional delay of a target task that is irrational and prevents you from reaching your goal. So you are purposely not doing something, all right, and it doesn't make any sense to do that and it's gonna prevent you from reaching a goal and people feel uncomfortable about it, and it's maladaptive. Do not listen to the current media people who are coming out and saying, "Oh, there is procrastination," you know, "There's a good side to procrastination." (imitates buzzer) Rain true. No, the, everything shows that procrastination

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 4:28 is a maladaptive lifestyle, you're missing out on life because for the procrastinator, they think the world is all about me and the world is not about me, it's about we. And if I don't do what I have to do, then you can't do what you have to do. And so it's not about me, "I, I don't like it, I can't do it. I, I find it aversive. It's unpleasant. It's too much time." Yeah, life ain't like that. So what? All right, life is about us getting things done. All right? You know, there's that expression, if you want something to be done, you give it to a busy person. Why? That makes no sense. Why a busy person? 'Cause the busy person values your time and values their time and knows that there are things that have to get done. All right? So, um, i- this is not an adaptive strategy. Let me stop there and say I'm not shaming or condemning anybody who's a procrastinator because I hope as we get there, I'm gonna show you how procrastination is a learned tendency.

Mel Robbins 5:27 Hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 5:27 And that means you can unlearn it. So that's how I would define it. It's irrational, it prevents you from reaching your goal.

Mel Robbins 5:33 So Dr. Ferrari, you said it's the intentional delay-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 5:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:39 ... which made me wonder, do you have to know that you're doing it?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 5:43 I need to clarify for you something. Everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator.

Mel Robbins 5:51 What's the difference?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 5:52 Uh, th- thank you very much. Uh, 20% of adult men and women are chronic...... procrastinators. And as a research psychologist, those are the people I want to study. 20%. Now, you might say, "That's all, Ferrari?" Uh, that's higher than depression, substance abuse, panic attacks, alcoholism, right? And yet we treat this humorously. "I procrastinate." Well, do you procrastinate on one task, then you are, then you procrastinate? Or, do you procrastinate on var-, on a variety of things that makes you a procrastinator? 20% of men and women, no significant gender difference, 20% of people, all right, uh, will not RSVP on time and wait till the gauge goes on empty before they get more gas or get the third bill before they pay it. You know they're gonna miss your birthday and your anniversary and Christmas, and you'll get the cards later, if you get anything, and all that.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 6:51 And they'll always have an excuse.

Mel Robbins 6:53 (laughs) That's me.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 6:54 Which for them-

Mel Robbins 6:55 That's me.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 6:56 Yeah, of course. 20% of people-

Mel Robbins 6:57 What do you mean, of course? That's me.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 6:59 Well, uh, you showed up 20 minutes late. So there's-

Mel Robbins 7:01 No, I did not. We had a schedule, and the schedule was to start the pre-interview at 10 o'clock, because most guests tend to be a little overwhelmed and a little, uh, nervous because of the reach of this show, and so we have a process in place. I was not intentionally delaying. I'll defend myself there.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 7:20 Okay. Um, I expected I'd see you right away, but, but irrelevant. All right?

Mel Robbins 7:24 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 7:24 But, uh, but it's a good example, a good example of what we're talking about, how, you know, how would someone else know that?

Mel Robbins 7:31 That's true.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 7:31 And so somebody... Unless they, unless they're told that, all right? And then the person who, quote-unquote, "shows up late," all right, says, "This is what's going on." And that's believable because procrastinators are very good, as I was saying, good excuse makers. They always have a reason, and it's logical and it makes sense. The problem is the next time the same thing happens, and the next time, or in another setting. So, that's what makes us suspicious after a while.

Mel Robbins 7:56 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 7:56 And we say, "Wait a minute. Uh, it's never your fault. It's never your fault." I don't know you, so I'm not saying this is true of you. Please, uh, please do not be offended. I'm trying to explain, you know, how this is a good case of what we're talking about.

Mel Robbins 8:08 Yes, I agree. So, can... Let me ask another question. So how do you know if, in fact, you are a chronic procrastinator, that you're part of that 20%?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 8:21 Sure.

Mel Robbins 8:21 What are some of the signs so that somebody can go, "This is beyond just a funny thing or something that frustrates me, this is something I really

Mel Robbins 8:29 need to sit up and pay attention to."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 8:33 Okay. So, uh, as I... Uh, yes. Uh, again, this is somebody who RSVPs, uh, shows up late, who, uh, may show up consistently to different events, misses sporting events and concerts because they never get the ticket on time. They, um, uh, you know they're going to be late for, uh, gifts. They, they drive their car on fumes because they're always late getting the gas or whatever they may need. So, you'll notice in a variety of settings, um, and, um, if you find yourself doing it at home, at school, at work, in relationships, that you're always doing this way, then a- and if other people t- you know, c- can get annoyed by you, and, um, uh, tell you that you're a procrastinator, you may be a chronic procrastinator because you're doing it in across time and across space. In science, that's what we look for, for consistency. Does it happen be- from day to day or time to time? And does it happen across location to location? Time and space. Um, so you have to see how... Well, now, if it's only one task, I really don't like doing the dishes.

Mel Robbins 9:40 Right.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 9:40 I really don't like... For me, it's cutting the grass.

Mel Robbins 9:42 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 9:42 I am dressed like I'm gonna go cut the grass. So, I have all these excuses. It's been raining, and it looks like it's gonna rain again today. But I'm not a procrastinator at all. You ask me to do something, you'll get it done. But that's something I will delay doing. Ask yourself, do you do this in different locations at different times? Have people told you that you're delayed? And I, as I said, this is men and women. There's no significant gender difference. This is young and old, urban and rural, different cities and the r- and the farm areas and the, uh, rural areas. No difference. All races. There is a difference between white-collar and blue-collar. White-collar procrastinate more. Let me make your listeners understand, because I understand you have a lot of countries here, that this is not just a US thing. This is not only a Western culture. Because I've collected data with colleagues in Britain, Australia, Canada, Germany, Poland, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Spain, Ireland, Italy, Peru, Venezuela, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan, South Korea. We're currently doing Iran, and I'm doing some more studies with people in Turkey, and I'm finding 20%.

Mel Robbins 10:49 Wow.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 10:50 So this is really global. Now, the next question is, well, then this, this... Is this genetic? Are we just human nature? Are we born this way? No.

Mel Robbins 10:59 What?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:00 No, we're not born progra- Oh, yeah, some people will say, "Well, there's nothing I can do about it. That's just who I am."

Mel Robbins 11:07 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:07 You know, "I'm just... I'm always..." No. No.

Mel Robbins 11:10 Huh?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:10 No. You learned to be a procrastinator-

Mel Robbins 11:13 From who?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:13 ... so you can unlearn it. Oh, from dads, but we'll get... Do you want to get there first?

Mel Robbins 11:18 Dads?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:18 Yeah. So, you learn to be a procrastinator, all right? So you can unlearn it. That's very optimistic. That means you're not condemned this way. Yes, you can teach old dogs new tricks. You just use a different bone, and it takes them longer, but you can unlearn it. If you're born that way, if that's just who you are, then, then, then let's just call it a day.

Mel Robbins 11:40 Then you're screwed. (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:40 Then it's over. Then

Narrator 11:41 (laughs) .

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:41 ... nothing we can do with it. And that's unfortunately too much of our culture is this way. "Well, that's how they are. That's how people are." No, no. People can change. Let's be much more optimistic.

Mel Robbins 11:52 Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:54 I- In my rambling.

Mel Robbins 11:55 Hold on. I, I need to tell you something.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 11:58 Okay.

Mel Robbins 11:59 I love you.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 12:02 Thank you. Don't tell my wife, but that's okay.

Mel Robbins 12:05 I love you-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 12:06 Okay.

Mel Robbins 12:06 ... because I believe the same thing. Of course, you can freaking change. Yeah, it's hard, but of course you can. And so, what you just said made me take a deep breath because I 1,000% fall into the category of being a chronic procrastinator.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 12:29 Do you mind sharing a little bit what that means to you, please, publicly? Are you okay with that?

Mel Robbins 12:33 Oh, of course. Absolutely.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 12:35 Okay.

Mel Robbins 12:35 So, all the way back to my academic career at Dartmouth College and Boston College Law School, every single paper was an all-nighter.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 12:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:46 Every single test was a cram session. I was late to every class. I, um... You asked me to do something, I'll forget. When you said birthdays, the bane of my existence is that I forget birthdays. I hate that about myself. I literally hate it about myself. Anniversaries come up on me with my husband, we've been married for 27 years now-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 13:19 Congratulations.

Mel Robbins 13:20 ... I forget to book plane tickets. I leave something on a plane everywhere I go. And I also have dyslexia. I also have been diagnosed with ADHD. And so, I have this story that there's nothing I can do about it. And that in some ways, when I think about the creative process, that I need this burst of adrenaline. There's something about the last-minute scramble that gets my ass going and gets my brain churning. And I don't know if that's a story, I don't know if that's a habit.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 13:54 No.

Mel Robbins 13:54 I don't know what the hell it is, but it drives me crazy.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 13:56 Okay.

Mel Robbins 13:56 It makes-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 13:56 Good point.

Mel Robbins 13:56 ... me mad that I'm terrible at time management. It makes me embarrassed when I'm late. I, my husband calls it Mel time. So, let's say we have to be out at a dinner with friends at six o'clock. The drive is 10 minutes. It is 20 minutes to six. Chris is dressed. He's already fed the dogs. He is walking toward the car. I am running around looking for my phone. I have one shoe on. I go into the bedroom, and now I think I have time to make three calls and make the bed and change my clothes. And Chris literally will be sitting in the car in the driveway while I am running around the house like a lunatic trying to find things. And I never equated the last-minute scramble actually with procrastinating. I cr- I equated it with, um, poor planning, with, um-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 14:51 Excuse-making.

Mel Robbins 14:52 Excuse-making. (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 14:54 I got to shut up. I'll let you go on first.

Mel Robbins 14:56 No, no, no, no, no, no.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 14:57 I'm making notes.

Mel Robbins 14:57 It's true.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 14:57 Because when you stop, I've got a whole bunch of stuff to say, but keep going.

Mel Robbins 15:01 What I procrastinate on is paperwork. I miss paying bills. I lose my credit cards all the time. I, I'm constantly without a cord, charger for my phone. My gas tank, I feel like my form of gambling is to see how far I can go. (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 15:21 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 15:22 And then I'm like, "Why do I do this to myself?"

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 15:24 Okay.

Mel Robbins 15:25 And it's this constant battle.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 15:28 All right. May I jump in now, Ms. Robbins?

Mel Robbins 15:32 Yes, you may-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 15:33 Okay.

Mel Robbins 15:33 ... Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 15:34 So, you said quite a few things, so thank you for sharing with us all of these items. And in no particular order, I've jotted down some things as you were saying them, so I want to go through them. You started off by telling us about your academic procrastination. All right. What I have found is that 70% of college students will delay writing, studying, going to that mentor, doing all these things. And 70%, now remember, everybody procrastinates, but not everyone is a procrastinator.

Mel Robbins 16:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 16:05 So, the college student might delay studying, reading, writing a paper, cramming at the last minute, doing all that. They may do

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 16:11 it, but if there's a free keg of beer in the dorm, they're there.

Mel Robbins 16:14 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 16:14 If Lady Gaga is giving a concert for the first 50 people, uh, Lizzo's in the other room, they're there.

Mel Robbins 16:21 (laughs) Yes.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 16:21 Then they're not procrastinators, they procrastinate. When you started off, I was saying, "Oh, okay, then she's an academic procrastinator, not a chronic procrastinator." But then you did move into other realms. You gave me a nice list of all these different tasks that your five million followers have said. My question to all of them, that is very nice, but is that the only thing that you're procrastinating with? Because then again, if it is, then you're just procrastinating, you're not a procrastinator. I'm not sure if you're familiar with, maybe some of your listeners are, with a concept called meta-analysis. It's a research technique.

Mel Robbins 16:59 Yup.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 17:00 Okay. And for those who are not list- familiar, a meta-analysis, a scientist takes previously published studies, takes all of them, enters them into a formula, and looks to see what's most effective based on these bodies of literature. Two of them have been done on interventions to deal with procrastination. The least effective technique, the technique that will not work with procrastinators is time management. What works is CBT, cognitive behavior therapy, because you need to change the procrastinator's way of thinking, cognitive, and the way they act. Because it's not a question of time management. Time management, stop, it's not going to work. Change the way you think, the way you act.

Mel Robbins 17:50 How do we do that?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 17:51 Well, you start with this and then you-

Mel Robbins 17:53 You read the book, Still Procrastinating.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 17:54 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 17:55 Awesome.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 17:55 You start with the book, and then you go find a good PhD psycho- clinical psychologist who's cognitive behaviorally trained. And you stop the excuse-making. One of the things I talk about is they're very good at the "but howevers".... oh, yes. "I was gonna do that, but... I would coulda done... However..." So your listener, who's a chronic, will listen to this and go, "Oh, that was very interesting. That was entertaining. But in my case," blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Mel Robbins 18:21 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 18:21 You know? "Oh, I really, I understand. However, for me..." See, so, you know. You c- look, there's, uh, as you know, the concept of... well, let me write something else down, please, if that's okay.

Mel Robbins 18:34 Sure.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 18:34 There are three myths, and you touched on one of them, about procrastination. And that is, "I work best under pressure." You told me about that one too. "I gotta wait till the last minute." Do these procrastinators, do they work best under pressure? The short answer is (imitates buzzer) no. All right, so we brought them in the lab. We had them work on a series of tasks, and experiments, and a series of studies. They did, they had more errors, they did less, but when you asked them, "How did you do?" "I did great. I did so much better than everybody else." All right? So, you don't work best under pressure. That's one of the myths. You don't work best under pressure. You think you do, all right? Um, but you actually do more failure. Thrill-seeking. Um, and now h- I heard, uh, ADHD and other kind... There's only been one study ever looking at ADHD and procrastination, and I did that in the '90s with three samples, two normal and one clinical sample of people diagnosed with ADHD, and found no relationship.

Mel Robbins 19:33 What do you blame it on?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 19:35 On yourself. Why didn't you manage your time? You can't manage time. Indecision is a form of procrastination, it's a cognitive form. It's called decisional procrastination. We're reinforced by our culture for being a procrastinator now, 'cause our culture

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 19:50 reinforces, um, procrastination. You know, we don't reward doing things early. We punish for being late in our culture.

Mel Robbins 19:59 Hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 19:59 If I don't pay my bills on time, I get a fine. I get a, uh, extra charge on my credit card. If you're like me and my wife, uh, in, in our 39 years of marriage, we pay ahead of time, all the time. I get the bill, I pay it, because I don't, I just wanna get rid of it. All right? All right. So, at the end of the year, do they ever come back and say, "Thank you very much. Here's a little g- extra gift. Here's 2%." No. Our cultures don't reward us for doing things ahead of time. They punish us for being late. Christmas shopping. Holiday season is coming up. If I wait till Christmas Eve, I get 70% off. I get 80%. Why should I, uh, shop earlier? I better wait till the last minute, 'cause look at what I'm gonna get. In fact, give me a gift card, and I'll go after Christmas, and I'll get even more, 'cause people aren't stupid. I say flip it, baby. I say do it the other way around. Make that 70%, 80% off Chri- Thanksgiving time. And then it gets less and less and less. And if you wait till Christmas Eve, there's a 20% surcharge. April 15th, taxes. Why should I pay my taxes earlier? There's no incentive. There's no reason. You know, if I have to pay, let's just say the person has to pay, well, I'm gonna send it in on April 12th, April 14th, I'm gonna do it at the last minute. No. Government's got it wrong. Again, reward for doing early. We have to reward for doing early, not punish. I am not in favor of punishing for being late.

Mel Robbins 21:29 That makes sense. So how do you as an individual that recognizes that you are a procrastinator apply rewarding being early to your own life?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 21:42 We can talk about that. But let me also clarify, uh, from the beginning, I'm not a clinical psychologist. All right? And so, I don't believe, as a psych- a research psychologist, that we should be doing street corner philosophy like this. "Tell me the, the, the magic bullet," 'cause that isn't how life is. You know, you need to understand the person and their dynamics. All right? You're asking me, as everybody does, "Just tell me the cure. Thank you for the causes, thank you for the consequences, but I want the cures." Well, uh, uh, d- life isn't like that. But I'm gonna respect your question in terms of asking of that. Um, one thing, technique you can use comes back from the 1960s, the Premack principle. David Premack was a,

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 22:22 a psych- psychologist who found that you can use high rates of behavior to reinforce low rates of behavior. What does that mean, Ferrari? In other words, you can take something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. So you don't like doing the dishes. Okay. So, you say to yourself, "I'm gonna wash these five dishes. If I wash these five dishes, then I'm going to watch Wheel of Fortune for five minutes," or whatever the heck it is that you like. "If I do 10 dishes, I do te- uh, 10 minutes." So you're making something you like to do as a reinforcer for something you don't like to do. Been around a long time. All right? That's called the Premack principle. Public posting. Another thing from the '60s that was around, or '60s and '70s. Very easy today. Publicly post. Research has found years ago that if you publicly post something, in those days, it was a piece of paper outside your office door, or excuse me, something like that, so people could see it, some high traffic area, "This is what I'm going to do. This is what, you know, needs to done," then you're much more likely to do that than not. Today with social media, use it. Say publicly post it to your friends. "Guys, I need to do this, and this is what I'm doing. And if I don't do it, don't let me buy the tickets to the concert. I can't come out with you Friday night-"

Mel Robbins 23:40 Hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 23:41 "... to go to the bar, okay? And hold me to that." There's a fundamental question that is like, why do people do this?

Mel Robbins 23:49 Yes. Why?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 23:51 Yeah. It's so maladaptive, Ferrari. I, I hear you now. "There's these myths, and, and it's irrational, and it prevents me..." All right.

Mel Robbins 23:59 And it causes pain.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 24:00 And it causes pain for you and others. And by the way, uh, another set of studies were done. Procrastinators don't like other procrastinators. They don't wanna hang out with them. They blame them for the failures of everything.

Mel Robbins 24:11 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 24:11 They're very interesting.So, if you're a procrastinator and you think I'll get sympathy from other procrastinators, you're not. I am so frigging tired. I am so tired of people thinking it's time management and just, "You're lazy." You're not lazy. You're working your butt off doing something else. Okay? You're not lazy. All right?

Mel Robbins 24:29 Hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 24:31 If I take my time doing something, if I don't meet the deadline and I delay, then I can simply say, "You know, I didn't have enough time. I, I know this is not the best thing. This is as good as I can get it, but if I had more time, I would've done better." So lack of effort is not a positive image, but it's a better image than, "I did it and it's a piece of garbage." You know, if you put something together and it's a... So people would rather have other people think that they lack effort, hence I procrastinate, than lack ability, 'cause I can't change ability. The next time I can try harder. So there's this attribution tendency that people have. Chronic procrastinators, procs, would rather have, um, are very concerned about what we call their social esteem. As a social psychologist, procrastinators are very concerned about protecting their social esteem. Now, you know what self-esteem is, that's how I feel about myself.

Mel Robbins 25:26 Okay.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 25:26 Social esteem is how others feel about me. And I would rather

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 25:31 have others think I lack effort, 'cause I wanna, I wanna maintain a good image with them. I want them to like me. Some researchers these days are calling it self-regulation failure. What does that mean? It's the n- it's a new name for an old concept called delay of gratification. Eh, eh, what these researchers are saying is that people procrastinate because they can't regulate the pleasure. They want the immediate pleasure now and they can't delay it to the future, so they're unable to self-regulate. Well, I agree with that, but that's not the only reason. People tend to either choose or claim, two Cs, choose or claim handicaps in life. What does that mean? They choose to put something in their way. I was just talking to a person yesterday, and the person was saying that their teenage son loves pizza, but also is pretty good on basketball. So if he doesn't think he's gonna win that night, he eats a pizza. If he f- if he does poorly, he can say, "Eh, I lost. I shouldn't have had that pizza. See, it's not me that he didn't have the skill to show. It was the pizza." So people will choose handicaps or they claim handicaps. They'll say, "I'm shy," I'm just saying that's what the literature says. "It's not my fault, it's that thing." But life is interesting.

Mel Robbins 26:47 I wanna ask you a question, though. Because you just used, you know, the quote, choosing a handicap, by saying, "I'm shy."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 26:57 Right.

Mel Robbins 26:57 Which I'm sure everybody listening that feels like they're introverted or shy or has, quote, social anxiety went, "But I am! But I am!"

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 27:05 Yeah. What does that mean, I am? Did you learn that? Is there a gene for that?

Mel Robbins 27:10 I have no idea.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 27:11 There's no gene for it. It's a learned tendency. So y- that is the way you are now. I am not dissing you. I am saying you can change. And isn't that amazing? You're not born that way. Don't tell me, "That is how I am." Say, "That is how I am now. I can be different. I can be better." We have 70 years, 80 if we're strong. Yeah, that's all you got. Why are you procrastinating? Leave a legacy. Make the world better. Ms. Robbins, I hope that's what you're doing here with your podcast series. You're making the world a little better for those who are listening.

Mel Robbins 27:49 Are there different types of procrastinators?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 27:52 The answer is no. There is, um, behavioral and cognitive. The cognitive procrastinator is the indecisive. The, the decisional, I call them, we call them in the field decisional procrastinate- procrastinator. Why would somebody engage in decisional procrastination? 'Cause it's beautiful. I live out here in the western suburbs of Chicago. There's a movie theater with 31 movies. Now, imagine going to the movies with an indecisive friend.

Mel Robbins 28:23 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 28:24 Just, eh, what would happen? You'd walk up and they would look and they'd say, "Uh, uh, uh," and you say, "Come on, what do you wanna see?" And what do they tell you?

Mel Robbins 28:33 "I don't know."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 28:34 "I don't know. I don't know." And you go, "Come on, come on, pick one." Now, this is a brilliant move on these people's part. 'Cause what happens? You decide. And you decide. Now, if the movie is great when you leave, everybody's happy. But if the movie's a dud, what are they gonna tell you afterwards?

Mel Robbins 28:50 "That was a terrible choice."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 28:52 "Oh."

Mel Robbins 28:52 "Yeah, you picked it."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 28:53 "That was terrible. You made me waste $14. Why'd you ever pick that? Why, why, why did we go there for a vacation? That was terrible. Why did we ever buy that, that car? I think it sucks. Oh, well, what's the matter with that dining room table? I never wanted that kitchen set." You see? The problem with the indecisive is they let other people do it. I call it in my book bailing them out. All right? It- it's okay to let other people... If you wanna not make a decision, you have every right not to do it.

Mel Robbins 29:19 Not making a decision is a decision.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 29:22 That's true. A- and therefore, shut up. (laughs) In other words, you don't have the right to complain afterwards. You forfeited your right. You gave up your ability to complain about it. If you let someone else make the decision, you gotta live with that, indecisive. I'm sorry. All right? You had a chance.

Mel Robbins 29:38 I think this is an area where tons of people struggle.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 29:41 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:41 And when people write in and say, "I'm stuck. I don't know what to do with my life."

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 29:47 Well, the first thing is you limit the options. You don't take the indecisive to 31 movies. You take them where there's only a couple. You don't bring them to a smorgasbord buffet, because they'll just stand there and go, "Oh my God! Look at all the food!" You go eat. Okay? No. You limit the options for the indecisive. Do the math, as they say. There are pro and con lists, also not considered effective, but if you do this twist to pro and con list, it works. You create the pros and lon- con list, and don't just look at which one's longer, look

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 30:18 at, within that list, which one, which items do you value? What's more important? The... Excuse me. The, uh, pro list may be short, all right, but it has things that you value more than the con.And this may sound odd, but take your time. All right? In other words, uh, make an informed decision. Don't stall, ponder, pause, but produce. If you wanna walk on water, you gotta get out of the boat.

Mel Robbins 30:47 It's true.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 30:47 If you want to succeed, you've got to take that risk. And so what, would you fail? So what? Okay? Okay.

Mel Robbins 30:54 What happens in your brain when you procrastinate?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 30:59 (laughs) Why are you going there? Okay, we just said it's learned.

Mel Robbins 31:04 Okay.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:04 Why are you looking for the physiological explanation? Because first of all, we don't know.

Mel Robbins 31:08 Okay.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:09 All right? And I don't mean to do that just because I'm a pompous butt. Uh, uh, it's, it's also the truth. Let's stop turning the, for the excuse that, you know, there's a dr- brain thing going on and therefore that's why I procrastinate. If you're gonna do that, then you're not gonna change, and that's okay.

Mel Robbins 31:24 (sighs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:24 I mean, you have a right to, to live in misery, uh, as one wants to.

Mel Robbins 31:27 I think it's incredibly encouraging that it's learned because-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:31 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:31 ... I agree with you.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:32 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:32 That means you can change it.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:34 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:34 And I also heard you loud and clear, forget the time management crap, based on the research-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 31:40 Yes.

Mel Robbins 31:40 ... none of that stuff is gonna work for you if this is something that you're chronically doing. And you also said very clearly there is no short list, there is no quick fix, there is no top 10 tips when it comes to procrastination because this is about the story you've told yourself, the habits that you've formed, and that you avoid, avoid, avoid or seek pleasure-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 32:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:04 ... instead of doing whatever the hell it is that you need to do, and it's become a habit. What's the link between perfectionism and procrastination?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 32:13 There is

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 32:14 a link, but they are separate concepts. It's, it all goes down to that failure. You see, that perfectionistic person has to believe that I do well all the time. I've got to be perfect. It could be, as I said, others imposing this to me, society imposing this to me, or it could be I'm concerned about my failures. So again, it's multidimensional. All right? Procrastination is also concerned about the failure, and so I want to avoid it. Avoidance strategy that society says is okay. Uh, it, it all has to do with failure, and that public image.

Mel Robbins 32:45 I think a lot about the person listening and the ache that you live with when you can't get out of your own fucking way. We're in 194 countries. Most of the people listening either can't afford the PhD cognitive behavioral therapy program that you're talking about, and so for a person who really is aching because they are in their own way, they see themselves sabotaging, they... What can somebody that doesn't have access to what you're talking about do in their own life after hearing this?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 33:27 Baby steps.

Mel Robbins 33:27 How, what are the baby steps?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 33:29 Start

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 33:30 s- start small. First of all, what you're doing is you're looking at the forest and you're missing that the forest is made up of trees.

Mel Robbins 33:37 Okay.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 33:38 You know, there's that old expression, "Don't miss the forest because you're focused on the trees." That's not the procrastinator's problem. It's the other way around.

Mel Robbins 33:45 Oh.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 33:45 They see the forest, "Oh my God, this is a huge task. Holy cow, I can't get all of this done." And they forget that the forest is made up of trees.

Mel Robbins 33:54 Hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 33:55 So listener, viewer, all right, it's made up of trees. And so what if you cut down one tree at a time? Oh, that's too much for you? Then let's give me three branches. You can't do three branches? I'll take a handful of leaves. Start small. Do something. And so what if you fail? Uh, so what? This is what cognitive therapists would ask you to do. What would be the worst scenario?

Mel Robbins 34:21 Let me give you some examples of things that people listening to the show-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 34:26 Yeah, you're asking me to do the street corner, street corner therapy again.

Mel Robbins 34:28 No, no, no, no, no, no. No, I am not.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 34:30 Okay.

Mel Robbins 34:30 You just told us to look at the trees. That is a concept. And I am on a mission to break down intellectual topics and research and conceptual ideas into tactical takeaways so that somebody knows what the hell you're talking about when you say-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 34:47 Yep, you want the cures.

Mel Robbins 34:48 I don't want the cures. That's bullshit. What I want is I want just one step because I see people writing in every day, listening to conversations between PhDs or people that are talking at a level that is, that is all academic, but when you finish listening to this podcast, Dr. Ferrari, I don't want, I don't want somebody to feel worse because they don't know-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:12 I don't either.

Mel Robbins 35:12 ... what a tree means in their life. And so if somebody writes in and says, "I procrastinate on working out and it, and, and it's chronic. Like, this is one thing that really bothers me." What would a tree be in, in that example?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:28 Sure. I, um, I take exception. I, I, I'm known in 40 years of teaching to take the jargon and to make it the streetwise. Um-

Mel Robbins 35:37 I think you do. I'm taking it a step further-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:39 Okay, so I don't think this is-

Mel Robbins 35:40 ... because I don't have a PhD-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:40 ... an egghead talk.

Mel Robbins 35:41 I don't think it is either.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:42 I don't feel like that's what this is.

Mel Robbins 35:42 You don't need to get offended. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm just-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:45 Well,

Narrator 35:46 You do what it is.

Mel Robbins 35:46 I am the advocate for the person listening-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:49 Absolutely, and so am I.

Mel Robbins 35:50 ... who, who-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 35:50 Okay, I would say that person is giving us that 80%. I'd, I'd ask the person first, "Is this the only thing? Is working out the only thing you pro- procrastinate on? Do you procrastinate in other areas your, of your life?"

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 36:04 And if they start telling me, "Well, yeah, no, I do that. And uh, uh, yeah, that's true too. And I don't like to do that." Then I say, "Okay, now..." Then you're moving from that procrastinator to, um, procrastinating to the procrastinator state, and that's something different. And I u- understand that some of you, many of you can't afford...... a good professional to help you through that. I understand that. Um, eh, just don't look at it time management. That's one of the... I gave a number of takeaways.

Mel Robbins 36:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 36:32 But I think one of them is don't think you just have to manage your time. That's not gonna work for you. It's like dieting. You'll start in the beginning, but you'll give it up. Um, the person with the wei- uh, who doesn't exercise, can you make something you like to do, I said this before, something you like to do, reinforce that you'll exercise? I don't like working on a treadmill. So when I'm on the treadmill, I'm reading my prayers. I know it'll take me about a good 20 minutes to do that, and so I can get at least 20 minutes of exercise. Pair it with something you don't like to do. That would be my street corner, uh, answer to that one. Did that help?

Mel Robbins 37:07 I think it really helps. When you take that beautiful analogy of you can see the big picture, but you can't focus every day on one fricking tree. Is there something... And I, I hear all of the advice, the pair it with something that you enjoy, break it down.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 37:25 Yeah. It's all part of self-care. Show care to yourself. Listener, please, all right, you've got to make time. You know, take time for yourself. Now the next day, do a little bit more because make love a habit of the heart. "Wow, last week I only spent two minutes on it. This week, I'm up to seven minutes." Now you could say, "Only seven minutes?" I say, wow, yahoo! That's seven minutes more than you did before.

Mel Robbins 37:54 How do you know if you're making an excuse or you have a valid reason?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 38:00 That is such a wonderful question. Why are you shopping now instead of later? And that was fascinating because I found two categories of these procrastinators, um, e- excuse makers. Some of them attributed to themselves, "Well, I'm shopping now because I can't decide on gifts. I really don't like shopping. It's really unpleasant for me, so it's my fault," self reasons. So people will give external excuses, not my fault, that cannot be verified-

Mel Robbins 38:30 Hmm.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 38:30 ... that cannot be judged by other people. So you say, how do you judge? And so therefore, uh, these people will give us excuses that can't be judged by others to be true or false. Um, so that's fascinating. I mean, in terms of-

Mel Robbins 38:43 What... You know what I found fascinating-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 38:44 ... self-criticism-

Mel Robbins 38:45 ... about that is that when you said-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 38:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:46 ... the excuse is aimed at you, "It's my fault," that made my heart sink because when you always aim it at yourself, I would imagine that that makes you feel even more stuck or more ashamed or more beaten down.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 39:03 Well, yes. You know, make a change. Yes, you're absolutely right. It... The self-devaluing, the self-criticism, it can be paralyzing and demoralizing and is just not right. People shouldn't be doing that. And it'll take you a while, but it can happen.

Mel Robbins 39:18 One final question.

Mel Robbins 39:19 For someone who's living with or loves a procrastinator-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 39:25 Okay.

Mel Robbins 39:26 I'm thinking about... I'm asking on behalf of my husband-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 39:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:29 ... who lives with a chronic procrastinator named Mel.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 39:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 39:32 Is there any advice or counsel or insight that you have to give to somebody who's dealing with someone like this? (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 39:41 I'm, I'm laughing 'cause y- y- you've touched something personal. It's hard to change them because they're great excuse makers. It goes back to that. They'll always tell you, "You don't understand."

Mel Robbins 39:49 (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 39:50 They'll pull up something in the past. "This is what happened. Don't you remember? Uh, na, na, na. How dare you force me? I'm my own person. Don't be a therapist with me." You know, something like that, they'll throw that one in your face. Um, so it's not easy.

Mel Robbins 40:03 Do you have a wife who's a procrastinator?

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:05 I am not allowed to say.

Mel Robbins 40:07 Okay. (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:09 (laughs) She's now in the other room.

Mel Robbins 40:10 Going-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:10 So I better not say anything.

Mel Robbins 40:11 ... "You're not supposed to talk about me." (laughs)

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:14 Gotcha.

Mel Robbins 40:16 Oh, man. Well, I gotta thank you. I really learned a lot, and I love how you don't hold back.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:27 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 40:27 No, I do. I really do. I love your passion for this. And-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:32 Yeah, listeners too. This is passion. This is not, uh, rudeness.

Mel Robbins 40:35 That's why I can go toe to toe with you 'cause I'm equally passionate about what I do, and I deeply respect your research and your expertise here. I feel a deep level of hope from your message knowing that this is a learned behavior, knowing that society rewards procrastination, knowing that you are completely lying to yourself with these excuses-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 40:59 Oh. Right.

Mel Robbins 40:59 ... and you are more capable than you're telling yourself-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 41:02 Right.

Mel Robbins 41:02 ... and you are able to make changes. And it begins with you. You can change. And you have given us not only the roadmap for it, but some very accessible things to do and to change. And so I just really wanna personally thank you-

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 41:17 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 41:17 ... Dr. Ferrari.

Dr. Joseph Ferrari 41:18 Thank you. And, and, you know, y- y- i- it's... Y-... You touched on something. I failed is not the same as I'm failure. You know, I'm not failure, I failed. It goes back to that same thing before. I procrastinated, doesn't mean I have to be a procrastinator. I can... Life is short and I can make my life and other lives better enriching other people's lives.

Mel Robbins 41:38 Well, thank you. Woo. I don't know about you, but after spending a little bit of time with Dr. Ferrari, I feel like I gotta go do something. You know what I mean? Like, uh, no more procrastinating. Uh, but before I jump off the mic and I go tackle that pile of to-dos, I wanna make sure I remind you that I love you, and I believe in you. And I believe in your ability to take everything that you just learned about this topic and apply it to yourself. And I think the biggest takeaway from all of this is you can change. You can make a decision today that this is something that you're gonna take seriously, that you're gonna stop listening to those stupid excuses. I've got 'em too. And you're gonna put your head down and start to chip away at it. And the most important piece for me is the self-compassion. As you do start doing the work to change, please savor it. Be kind to yourself and cheer yourself forward. Alrighty, I'll see you in a few days. Thanks for watching here on YouTube, and if you loved this episode of The Mel Robbins Podcast, you're gonna wanna watch this one next. It's awesome.