Signs You’re Dealing With a Narcissist (New Research From World-Leading Expert Dr. Ramani)

Mel Robbins 0:00 What is narcissism?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:02 Narcissism is a personality style. Let's move the disorder piece off to the side.

Mel Robbins 0:07 Every time I talk to you, I start to wonder, "Am I a narcissist?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:12 You know how a, a, a thief or a burglar walks into a place or drives by a place and they're looking for all the places they could get in? Where could they get in? Where could they get caught? That's what they're doing with you.

Mel Robbins 0:22 What is love bombing?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 0:23 It's a relationship that feels like a fairytale. It's this is the greatest love story ever told. Like, h- where have you been my whole life? I'm like, "No, no, no, no. You're in love. They're in power. Understand the difference."

Mel Robbins 0:36 Whoa. (upbeat music) Hey, it's Mel, and I just wanna thank you, first of all, for tuning in. And you know what else I want to thank you for? I want to thank you for taking the time today to listen to something that could improve your life. I think that's pretty cool. And if you're one of the literally hundreds of thousands of new listeners to this podcast, I want to take a moment and welcome you to the Mel Robbins Podcast family. I'm Mel Robbins. I'm a New York Times best-selling author and one of the world's leading experts on confidence and motivation, and I'm on a mission to do one thing: I want to inspire and empower you with tools and the expert resources that you deserve to create a better life. And one of my all-time favorite things to do on this podcast is introduce you to the people that have changed my life, and today, you are gonna meet somebody that is a really big deal for me. Her name is Dr. Ramani Divursula, and she's helped me do a couple things. First of all, she's helped me understand the topic of narcissism. She's also helped me heal from the damage that I've experienced from having narcissistic relationships in my life, and she's taught me, and I think this is the biggest piece, to thrive, to thrive even as I have to deal with narcissistic personality types in my day-to-day life now, like you probably have to, too. Dr. Ramani has appeared on this podcast twice, and I cannot wait to welcome her back, to introduce her to you if you've never heard from her before, 'cause this is the first time that she's been back in over a year. Dr. Ramani is a licensed clinical psychologist. She practices in Los Angeles. She's also one of the world's most respected and renowned experts and researchers on the topic of narcissism. She hosts the award-winning podcast, Navigating Narcissism, and today, she's here to talk about her brand-new book. It will be a runaway bestseller. She has brand-new research included in the book. The book is entitled It's Not You. I love that title. I love that title 'cause when you're dealing with narcissism, you think you're the problem. She's here to teach you it's not you, and more importantly, she's gonna teach you, how can you heal from narcissistic relationships, because boy can they do damage. But before I welcome Dr. Ramani back to the Mel Robbins Podcast, let me give you some statistics about her. First of all, Dr. Ramani is our single most popular expert that has ever appeared in the 18 months that we've been doing the Mel Robbins Podcast. Her appearances have the highest number of views on YouTube. She's driven the most number of questions to our DMs, our inbox, to the Ask a Question form on melrobbins.com, and she's driven the most shares of any expert who's appeared on this podcast on YouTube, on podcast platforms, and today, she is back. She is back with new insights, with research, and with the tools and strategies that has earned her a global following. And because there's so much to cover about the topic of narcissism, I want to say a couple things. First of all, if you think you know everything there is to know about narcissism, guess what? You don't. Every time you listen to Dr. Ramani, promise you, you will learn something new. Plus, you're in a very different place. There are different people in your life, so I guarantee you, you're gonna hear something today that is relevant to you right now. We're gonna cover absolutely everything that you need to know based on the research to understand the topic of narcissism and to be able to spot a narcissistic personality style in people in your life. Dr. Ramani is also gonna walk you through new research about the four myths on narcissism, and she's gonna talk about narcissism and her research in the context of relationships, friendships, work, and family. And if you've ever wondered, "Is narcissism on the rise? Is everyone a narcissist these days?" well, some of the statistics that you're gonna hear today are gonna shock you. Understanding this personality style is critical so that you can stay in your power no matter who you're dealing with. And before we jump into this amazing topic, you ask me all the time, "Hey, Mel, thank you so much for supporting me. How can I support you?" very, very simple. Please, wherever you're listening or watching to this show right now, please subscribe. Please follow the show. Especially if you're on YouTube, hit Subscribe. It truly helps a show like this. It allows me to bring amazing guests like Dr. Ramani to you at zero cost. And as you listen today, and you gain all of this transformational information, please be generous with it. Please share this with anybody in your life who really needs to hear this information from Dr. Ramani. One share can change the trajectory of someone else's life, so thank you in advance for doing that. Now, without further ado, I am honored to welcome the single most popular expert that we've ever had back to the Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so glad that you're here. It's so great to see you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:38 I'm so happy to be here. It's so wonderful to see you, every time, every time.

Mel Robbins 5:40 Well, um, I know that our audience is going to gobble up-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 5:46 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 5:46 ... absolutely everything you have to say because you are our number-one favorite expert of our audience of every single person that we have ever had on the show.You are also the expert with the highest number of YouTube views. You are the person who has driven the most questions to our inbox. We have a form on our website-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 6:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 6:11 ...that is Ask a Question, so in that form, in the DMs. And you are somebody that gets our listeners just coming back and wanting more and more and more. And I'm really excited that you are here to talk about your new work. Every single time that I sit down with you, I show up and I go, "Oh, I think I know what narcissism is. I've- I've- I've talked to Dr. Romney before. I get this." But I always learn something new from you. And what I'm really excited about is your brand new book has new research, new ways to think about narcissism, to spot narcissism, and so we're going to cover all of that today. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here, uh, and helping all of us.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:00 Thank you so- I mean, first of all, Mel, thank you. I'm humbled, I'm honored. It- I'm going to say something interesting to you. I'm almost a little saddened that it was the number one episode. I'm- like, I mean, I'm hyped.

Mel Robbins 7:11 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 7:11 But you know why I'm saddened is that that's how many people are being hurt. Every time I think we've dug deep into this, the stories, the experiences. Because I have clients, for example, who have been in narcissistic marriages, relationships, 40, 45, 50 years, and they've said to me, "Nothing like this was being said 20 years ago, 25 years ago. Nothing. And maybe I might have taken different action at that point." And they said, "So it's really bittersweet to hear this now." They feel less crazy, but they're still suffering and taking action's a little different now. So my point is that so many people don't know. We- th- I think everyone knows, and then I meet someone who says, "This was a revelation." So like I said, that's why I'm sort of- I'm humbled, I'm grateful, but I'm sad.

Mel Robbins 7:55 What's going through my mind right now is that this is my personal introduction to narcissism in terms of what you just said. So, the first time anybody said to me that there was a person in my life, who is still in my life, that is exhibiting the classic textbook behavior patterns, repeated behavior patterns of somebody who is narcissistic was my own therapist.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:23 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:23 And I was talking to her about my anxiety-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:26 Good for you.

Mel Robbins 8:26 ...and my grief and my confusion about this lifelong relationship-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:32 ...with this particular person, and my therapist just flat out said, "Well, you know, they're on the narcissistic personality disorder spectrum." And I'm like, "What are you talking about? What do you mean?" And she started to tick off all of these classic behavior patterns that I always thought were representative that there was something wrong with me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:54 And then, of course, I met you weeks later.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 8:58 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 8:58 And you and I have started this conversation about narcissism, and today, where I want to start is just let's cover first, what is narcissism?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:09 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 9:09 Because the word is thrown around all over the place. You are the world's leading expert. You are now piloting all of this academic research around narcissism. What do you want the person listening to know about narcissism?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:24 So, narcissism is a personality style. I think it's actually really important for us to break out of this conversation of it as a disorder, because that's really muddying the waters. We really don't get to say someone has a disorder unless they've sat in a room with a clinician and that clinician has observed them and assessed them and issued a diagnosis. And where a lot of people get pushback is even sometimes the therapist will say, "Well, you shouldn't say your husband has narcissistic personality disorder unless you've spoken to their therapist," which obviously they

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 9:54 haven't, and obviously the husband hasn't been in therapy. So, let's call it what it is, which is a personality style, and let's move the disorder piece off to the side.

Mel Robbins 10:04 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:04 So narcissism's a personality style, and it would be considered a maladaptive personality style 'cause it's not good for relationships. It's a rigid personality style, like most unhealthy personality style, where there's not a lot of flexibility. It's not something that changes. Personality in and of itself is pretty rigid for all of us. You have a personality. I have a personality. They can only change so much, right? But with someone who's narcissistic, I like to view yours or mine as maybe like really, really solid jello, so a little bit of flexibility. For a narc-

Mel Robbins 10:36 (laughs) I thought you were talking about my waist. (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 10:37 Yeah. Go- no. Got a whole lot of it right here. But the, um, the narcissistic person's is more like cement. There's really no move, all right? So now let's talk about what it is. It is a personality style that's characterized by variable empathy. And I want us to talk about empathy, Mel, 'cause that empathy part is- gets a little bit dicey with narcissistic folks. Variable empathy, entitlement, grandiosity, arrogance, selfishness, the need for validation and admiration, um, a need for control, a motivation, uh, by

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:11 power, dominance. Again, that need for control. They envy other people or they think other people envy them. They very much often live in fantasy worlds. That's- that's sort of how it looks.

Mel Robbins 11:22 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 11:23 All of that is around a core of insecurity, and that insecurity is a sort of chronic sense of shame that's almost volcanically trying to come up. The entitlement, the grandiosity, the arrogance all acts as the armor to keep that tamped down. And so as a result, narcissistic people are very reactive when they're- they're- they perceive criticism, when they're frustrated, when they're disappointed. Why? Because it means they're not perfect. It means they're not the grandiose ideal that they've created for themselves to protect themselves from that cauldron of shame that's always bubbling up. That is narcissism. And the reason I put a pin in that empathy piece-They're not devoid of empathy, right? They're not psychopathic. In fact, the, the challenge becomes, you know narcissistic people, I know narcissistic people, they're actually really good at sort of, if you will, faking the empathy. Their empathy is quite performative. It's very transactional. And narcissistic people know that empathy sells, that empathy creates social connections, and above all else, that empathy gets them supply. People like people with empathy. Like, "Oh, this empathy thing is working out for folks, so I'm gonna try this." They, "Oh, I gotta, uh, I, I'm worried about your feelings. How

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 12:36 are you feeling? You okay?" So they can turn it on long enough to draw someone in or convince other people that they're empathic. So they're able to almost use it as a tool, as a tactic, as a stratagem, in some cases even as a weapon. So that's why I'm saying it's not fair to say they have n- no empathy or even low empathy. It's variable empathy. When they feel good, when their star is rising, when things are going the way they want, they are very empathic. That's why you will see, for example, a spouse may go up to their partner who had a great day at work. They killed it. And the partner's like, "Hey, tell me about your day. How was it?" And that person's thinking like, "Oh, God, well, I don't, I, I gotta tell you, I had a little bit of a hard day. Let me t- How can I help you? How can I help you?" So that's the Wednesday. And on Friday, that same spouse thinks, "Well, he was so empathic on Wednesday, I'm gonna tell him how this problem's going at work." Well, that same narcissistic spouse didn't have such a good day on Friday. "Why are you telling me your problems? Do you think I have p- time for your stuff? All you do is complain about work." That flip from Mr. I'm-gonna-give-you-advice-and-I-believe-in-you on Wednesday to why are you wasting my time on Friday, that flip-flop is the narcissistic relationship. On Wednesday, he seemed like one heck of an empathic guy.

Mel Robbins 13:55 So, let's start with the narcissistic personality style-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:00 ... versus somebody who's just vain-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:02 Yep.

Mel Robbins 14:02 ... or conceited.

Mel Robbins 14:04 What is the difference between somebody who's a little self-centered-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:07 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 14:07 ... versus somebody that truly has a narcissistic personality style?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:11 It's such a great question, especially in the era of social media, right? Social media has brought the conceit and the vanity up to a level that's unparalleled in human history, right? Do you, you, you and I are old enough. Do you remember back in the day we'd take a camera on vacation and we'd try to get that picture of us-

Mel Robbins 14:26 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:26 ... in front of the monument? And then we had a lot of pictures with just our eyes and just our mouth, right?

Mel Robbins 14:31 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:32 W- w- we didn't really try to take selfies 'cause more often than not, we had to get the film developed, so now I've wasted like four of these precious im- Yeah. So you get that.

Mel Robbins 14:40 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:40 So now, this idea of the selfie, the performative self, the branded self, and then how much we're looked at all the time, not only by ourselves, but by everybody else, has taken vanity and almost turned it into something normative. We gotta keep that in mind, right?

Mel Robbins 14:56 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 14:56 We have to view also narcissism on a spectrum now, right? It's not an either or. It's not that you're narcissistic or you're not. At the mild end of the spectrum, that's where the vanity hangs out. These are what I call more Instagram narcissists. Lots of selfies, "Look at me. Isn't my dinner interesting? Isn't what I did this weekend oh so interesting? Please look at me. Don't you want to hear my review of the movie?" No, Siskel and Ebert, I don't. You don't know things. Please stop. But that's the world we're in. Those people are annoying. They're immature. They're emotionally stunted. They're probably not the person you're gonna go to on the day you get really bad news and need support. They're those people, right?

Mel Robbins 15:39 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 15:41 Are they harmful? Depen- You may not want to be married to them. It would stink if they were your parent. This is the parent who is your friend, but was never really there with emotional depth. So if you had a significant relationship with one of those mild, superficial narcissistic folks, it's certainly not good for you. If they're your friend, I always say have a few of those mild narcissists around. They're great to have for a party.

Mel Robbins 16:04 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:04 Pop 'em out then.

Mel Robbins 16:05 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:06 So, but when we get to the moderate and severe ends, obviously it's a different game. So where vanity and superficiality become narcissism is when we get into those core elements of the empathy issues and above all else, entitlement. There's some really interesting research that came out in 2017 about the phenomenology of narcissism, and what I loved about this research is that the one pillar that is universal in all narcissism is entitlement. So if that vain person, "Look at me, look at my breakfast, aren't, like, look at my shirt, look at my this-"

Mel Robbins 16:40 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 16:41 ... but they're never treating a server rudely, they wait their turn in line, they don't think they're more special than someone else, I'm gonna tell you now, I don't think they're narcissistic. So that vain person can just sort of be superficial, maybe a little vapid, maybe a little immature, but if they're not doing those sorts of interpersonally antagonistic things, not a narcissist.

Mel Robbins 17:02 That makes me feel so much better.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:05 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 17:05 (laughs) Because I like the distinction. It makes sense to me-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:10 ... that somebody can be really annoying-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:12 ... and vain-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:13 ... and certainly social media is fueling a lot of this.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:16 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:17 But that's different than being harmful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:19 Very different.

Mel Robbins 17:20 And if I think through everybody in my life that I personally believe has a narcissistic personality style, the entitlement piece is there.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:30 Yes.

Mel Robbins 17:32 That there is that sense of, "I deserve better. I deserve this," this sense of being wronged or like kind of offended if your breakfast is taking too long-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:46 Correct.

Mel Robbins 17:46 ... or offended if you don't do what, you know, they want you to do. And so that distinction is incredibly helpful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 17:53 Yes. It, it, it's everything 'cause it's this, it's the entitled person doesn't just feel special. They have to be more special than you. Does that make sense? There's a difference.

Mel Robbins 18:05 That's also something brand new that I've just learned from you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:09 Yeah, that's entitlement.

Mel Robbins 18:10 That distinction of entitlement, and that they... And I think it's particularly helpful when you're dealing with somebody in your family.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:17 Yes.

Mel Robbins 18:17 Or dealing with somebody that you're in a relationship with, that there's entitlement that is directed at other people, like somebody that is, you know, the bartender at a bar, or somebody that is working at an airport and the line is moving too slow, and they're aiming it at them. But I think it is profoundly disorientating when it gets aimed at you and it's a family member-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:38 Correct.

Mel Robbins 18:38 ... or it's a spouse.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 18:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 18:40 One other thing I'd love to tease out, because we're talking about this as being on a spectrum and that it is a personality style, is that every time I talk to you,

Mel Robbins 18:51 I start to wonder, "Oh, shit, do I have narcissistic personality style?" Is this something in everybody? Is it normal to worry that you are narcissistic? Does it mean you're narcissistic if you think you're narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:06 So, a lot of people grapple with this. You know, it's always, I always say the ones who are grappling and worrying that they're narcissistic usually aren't the ones who are narcissistic, right? Remember, no one thing that I mention, the entitlement, or the grandiosity, or the arrogance, or the empathy deficits, or the vanity, or the selfishness, or the admiration seeking, none of those by themselves define narcissism, right? A carrot isn't soup.

Mel Robbins 19:29 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:29 A carrot is a carrot.

Mel Robbins 19:31 Okay. Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 19:31 Okay? Might be something in a soup, but by itself it's a carrot. By itself, arrogance is arrogance. When you put it in there with the chicken and the broth and the celery and the stuff, now you got a soup, right? So, we have to remember that you gotta have the whole soup. I personally found, and this is a little bit controversial, I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I know some people use that term. I'm not a fan because by definition narcissism is unhealthy. So-

Mel Robbins 19:59 Why is it unhealthy?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 20:01 It's unhealthy because it puts you at odds with other people. It harms other people. And here's where it gets interesting. If somebody has a personality trait that, in the world the way it's organized now, is more likely to make them more successful, more wealthy, narcissistic people are more likely to get, uh, romantic partners. They're more likely to be in leadership. All the things that we think are success, narcissistic people have. So you think, "Sign me up." The problem is, this whole s-, this whole stuff that's narcissism harms other people. I, as a psychologist, and I feel very grounded in this, we are a social species. We exist in social groups. That something that harms that connective tissue is not healthy for human being. I don't care if you have a lot of money. And so, I don't believe in healthy narcissism. I believe in healthy self-advocacy. I believe in healthy assertiveness. I believe in, I, I believe in healthy sense of self. But when people stop and wonder, "Am I narcissistic?" I really ask them, "Do you stop and consider how your words affect other people? Do you stop and concern yourself with the feelings of other people?" Every so often putting ourselves first doesn't make us

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:16 a narcissist. Telling a friend, like, "I can't come to your birthday dinner, I have worked 16-hour days every day this week. I love you. I'd love to take you out to dinner next week," your friend may be mad at you. I'm not saying your friend's gonna be like, "Good for you-

Mel Robbins 21:28 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:28 ... for your self-care."

Mel Robbins 21:29 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:30 And then you say, "I am so sorry. I am aware, but I c- I can't do this. I am, I'm g- I'm pushing myself too hard," and you really make a concerted effort to create the time with a friend, I don't consider that narcissistic.

Mel Robbins 21:42 Here's what I, what I am thinking about right now, is that if you're self-reflective and you are a reasonable, empathetic, rational human being who's doing their best-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 21:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 21:55 ... if you're in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, it, it almost seems like the default is to explain away the behaviors that you're ticking off. Oh, they're raging at this person 'cause they're-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:09 Correct.

Mel Robbins 22:09 ... tired. Oh, they're, you know, this way because of that. Oh, now they're being nice to me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:14 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:14 And so,

Mel Robbins 22:15 how do you get to a point in your life where you can say to yourself, "This is definitely somebody who has this narcissistic personality style"? Is it really, like, looking for the entitlement piece? Because I personally have really struggled with this, because I am so quick to explain away the behavior.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 22:36 Mm-hmm. Okay, but here's, here's where you can do something that I think is probably one of the greatest balancing acts that, if everyone could learn this, could actually help them a lot. You can explain away the behavior and understand that they're narcissistic at the same time. One thing I talk about in the, in the new book you'd talked, referenced, is this idea of, of multiple truths. And nowhere does that matter more than when you're in a narcissistic relationship, that multiple things can simultaneously be true. They did have a bad day at work because they didn't get the promotion they wanted, and that's what's driving their anger. The way they're treating me is unacceptable. Those two things are true.

Mel Robbins 23:18 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 23:18 That person's behavior, we could explain it, again, the minutiae of it, it's not acceptable. Does that make sense? Just because we can explain something doesn't make it acceptable. And I think one of the dangers of psychology is we can explain things, but we sometimes think, "Well, if you can explain it, then it's okay." We have to be able to hold in consciousness those two things. This is why they did it, and it is absolutely unacceptable.

Mel Robbins 23:45 I think that is the biggest breakthrough idea that I hope you listening to Dr. Ramani right now take away from this. That if you look at another human being's behavior and how it impacts you, to separate yourself from that behavior, that you didn't cause it, you're not responsible for it, and just because XYZ happened, how they are erupting or how they are treating you is not okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:12 And that's hard.

Mel Robbins 24:12 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:13 That's really, really hard because the other thing we're also taught is that... And, and, and, and again, the world of therapy is partly guilty for this, is what are you bringing to this interaction? What part are you... Think of couples therapy. What is all of couples therapy? "Well, there's two people in the room, so two people must be partly responsible." I'm like, "Mm, no, no, no, not so much." And so, uh, I suppose if somebody's responsible because they're standing in the room, maybe I'll give them 5% on that.

Mel Robbins 24:43 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 24:44 But beyond that, the, this idea that one person is using the other human being as their pacifier and punching bag, I can't get behind that. They're using you to regulate. You serve no more function. They don't see you as a human being. They see you as someone they can go off on. And now they've learned you ain't going anywhere.

Mel Robbins 25:04 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:05 So, you have to make that judgment. Is this acceptable? In fact, if we look at the work on self-compassion, Kristin Neff's work, one thing I really love about it and I brought to bear in working with survivors of narcissistic abuse is, so many survivors of narcissistic abuse are so far down the rabbit hole of, "Maybe this is all I deserve. Maybe I'm to blame. This is probably my fault." They've believed the gaslighting, they've internalized all the manipulation. Is I'll say, "Let's step back. I hear you. Now, I want you to take apart this episode you just shared with me, and I want you to answer the question." And by now when the client, I know their friends and things like... I says, "Would you be okay if this happened to Mary? If you watched this happen to Mary, would you sign off on this?" And invariably, "No. No, God, if it happened to Mary, I..." "Okay. So, you have just said this behavior's unacceptable." So then we work backwards from there.

Mel Robbins 25:54 Can we talk a little bit about personality styles?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 25:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:57 How does this happen? Like is somebody just born this way? When does personality develop? Like, how do you become narcissistic?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:06 The theoretical

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:07 focus on where does narcissism come f- come from largely is this idea of th- there's sort of two paths, Mel. One path is a path of adversity. And the path of adversity would argue that narcissism as a personality style is a post-traumatic presentation. These are kids who experienced neglect, invalidation, maybe frank physical or sexual abuse, that they really, really had a rough start. That early adversity can be one path to narcissism, right?

Mel Robbins 26:36 So, are you saying that there is a whole, uh, field of research and belief that childhood trauma creates the narcissistic personality style?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:49 It can.

Mel Robbins 26:49 That it literally is almost like a symptom of complex post-traumatic stress disorder?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 26:54 Exactly, exactly. So, here's where it gets tricky. The vast majority of children who grow up with trauma-

Mel Robbins 27:03 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:03 ... and neglect and invalidation do not develop narcissism. They may develop complex trauma. They may develop nothing at all. Anxiety, you know-

Mel Robbins 27:12 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:12 ... sort of the, the standard presentations we'd expect. The vast majority don't become narcissistic. So you might be wondering, what's path two?

Mel Robbins 27:19 I am (laughs) .

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 27:20 Path two is the overindulgence, "You're more special than every other kid." And there's, and this is really interesting, that's coming out of a young researcher named Eddie Brummelmans in Amsterdam. Really promising work. There's other folks doing similar work here in the States, but the, the work out of the Netherlands is what really has caught my attention. And what he writes about and his research group writes about is that it's this idea of telling the child not just that they're special, all kids are special, "You're more special than the other kids." Basically, the indoctrination of entitlement in a child. "You're the most special child. These kids, ugh, but you're the most special child." That that seems to be a pathway that even in children starts to shift towards a more entitled style of thinking that then is probably gonna get shaped. And who's more likely to do that? An entitled, narcissistic parent. The parents aren't there to teach them how to self-sooth, how to hold their emotional states, how to be present with them. They want their kid to be a winner. "You're more special." And so what we also see is sort of what I call the performing pony kind of model of where we get narcissism. The kid who's loved when they're the soccer star, the kid who's loved when they get, then they're headed towards Harvard, that kid, the success kid. That kid knows, "The first time I decide not to do soccer or if I stop getting on my toes on this ballet floor, I'm toast." And that child recognizes that they are loved for what they do and not for who they are. That is another pathway to narcissism. Those kids tend to become more of the grandiose narcissist. And Mel, I'll tell you this as a clinician, you're gonna make a lot more headway with the kids with those backstories and adversity because you can use trauma-informed methods and actually make a dent. Those grandiose kids, forget it. You're not making a dent in those people therapeutically.

Mel Robbins 29:12 Is there an age range that this happens during?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:17 I mean, again, when we think of the core of social and emotional development-

Mel Robbins 29:20 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:20 ... a lot of this is happening pre-pubescent. At, around-

Mel Robbins 29:23 Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:23 Around puberty is where the baton gets handed to the peers.

Mel Robbins 29:27 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:27 Right? That's where peers-

Mel Robbins 29:27 So is this like 12?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:28 12, 13.

Mel Robbins 29:29 Gotcha.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 29:30 Yeah, I mean, that's why for parents listening to this, this is the heavy lifting, from 0 to 13. Safety, consistency, emotional availability, teaching children to self-sooth, giving validity to their emotions, not making your child feel that they're loved for what they do, allowing your child to feel special as part of a world full of special people, not more special, not behaving in an entitled manner around your kids.

Mel Robbins 29:56 So, I keep thinking about something that happened a week ago. We were, uh, away celebrating my mom's 75th, and we were checking into a hotel. And there was a family in front of us and they're checking in. And dad is kind of yelling at the, uh, staff behind the counter. It's right after a big holiday weekend, the rooms are not ready, he's blustering. Mom has got, like, nine-inch-long nails tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap, tap on her phone. The kid is in a stroller wearing a Versace sweatsuit.... Golden Goose glitter sneakers, so we're talking probably a $1,500 outfit on a three-year-old with the labels all over it. The three-year-old is on a phone right next to them, staring at social media. And as I sit here and hear you talk about the two different lanes and that something is getting modeled between the dad yelling, the mom ignoring, the kid all over social media at the age of three dressed as a billboard for designer clothes, it makes me worried about the state of society.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:05 Is narcissism on the rise?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:07 So there's the big question. Uh, Dr. Keith Campbell, he's a professor at University of Georgia, and

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 31:12 his work on narcissism to me is, is some of the best out there. And he wrote a book called The Narcissism Epidemic back in 2012 with Jean, um, Twenge, and they were suggesting that it was on the rise at that point. Here's what him and I were noticing. I was noticing it as a clinician. He was noticing it as a researcher. He's like the grandiose narcissism, interestingly, is kind of where it's always been. What social media has done is it's given grandiose narcissism a sort of interesting platform and place to live. But the vulnerable narcissists, their victimhood, their anger, their sullenness, their mean comments on social media, that has shot up because those vulnerable, narcissistic folks are seeing that other people have stuff and they don't have it. So they're seething. And all this seething we're seeing in the world is the vulnerable, narcissistic people have gone off like a wildfire. And that's what the new problem is, to be hon- quite honest. That's how I see it, is that the vulnerable narcissism is really the problem, that victimized failure to launch, "I have all these big fantasies and why isn't everything going my way? And how come everyone else gets a lucky break and nothing ever happens for me?" Angry, angry, angry, troll, troll, troll, mean, mean, mean, that's what's sort of on the rise. And so I think that the grandiose piece is probably, oh, there's always been that group of people.

Mel Robbins 32:37 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 32:37 Here's what I don't believe. I think if you have a person with a healthy personality and they're mucking around on social media, they kind of understand the difference. Does that make sense? Like, they're able to say, like, "This is fun," but I think people who already have that personality stuff churning in their adolescence, social media is the match you're throwing on the gasoline. But with no gasoline, the match is just gonna fizzle out. So all this stuff, the social emotional development, the, the three-year-old w- with the designer duds, that's the kid who where... That, that plus the social media and the messages from the world and the non-emotionally attuned parents-

Mel Robbins 33:15 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:15 ... and the parents modeling entitlement, that's the person who is going to love bomb and destroy someone's life in about 25 years.

Mel Robbins 33:22 Well, this is super helpful to have the distinction grandiose 'cause I think, I c- I can think of a million examples-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:28 Yes.

Mel Robbins 33:29 ... of people-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:30 Easy.

Mel Robbins 33:30 ... that just display it. It's out there. I find the vulnerable narcissist that you were just talking about, this deep-seated anger-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 33:40 And victimhood.

Mel Robbins 33:40 ... and victimhood to be really fascinating. And I can see how a deep-seeded anger and victimhood then leads to this sense of entitlement that might not be displayed on social media, but then gets aimed at your family, at your friends, at your colleagues, at your loved ones. And so as somebody's listening to this, and this always happens (laughs) when you and I talk, there's usually one of two reactions, which is, "Am I a narcissist?"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:13 Right.

Mel Robbins 34:14 And the second one is, "Oh my God, you're describing my dad."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:18 "You're describing my m- you're describing my son. You're describing the person I'm dating." How would you counsel someone if you're having this epiphany for the first time?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 34:30 What are some things, like, you see these three things, we got it-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:33 ... for sure.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:34 What you see in vulnerable, narcissistic people is a chronic grudge.

Mel Robbins 34:39 Oh my God.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 34:39 That's what it is. It's the chronic grudge. It's li- it's... And a lot of it comes out in political conversations, but it could even be like, "Rah, that neighbor. Rah, your brother. Rah..." It's like a, "Rah." It's this, it's this... It's grudge. It's a constant grudging grievance. And there, there's a, a, um... And it's, it... The grudging grievance is as though even these sort of random things that happen to be happening in the world seem to be targeted at them. So that takes us to the second thing, which is this chronic sense of suspiciousness. People are kind of out to get them that th- m- m- bad things are negatively targeting them. They're just literally a hair away from seeming paranoid, right? It f- it, it really feels as though they, they almost feel like people are out to get them, but it's not quite that bad, but it's this sense of, "He's always trying to make me mad." Like, no, I think he just parked his car there. I don't think he was thinking about you, just, just a good parking spot, right?

Mel Robbins 35:33 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:33 But they're thinking that the person parked the car there to piss them off.

Mel Robbins 35:37 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:37 They make the person's parked car about them. Does that make sense?

Mel Robbins 35:41 Absolutely. I feel like I'm having a trauma response-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:44 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 35:44 ... as I hear you describe this because grudge and this edge-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:49 And the suspiciousness.

Mel Robbins 35:50 ... and that it's, like, happening to me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:52 It's about me.

Mel Robbins 35:53 The traffic. So many people have moved here and the traffic is-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:55 Right, right, right.

Mel Robbins 35:55 ... really terrible and somehow it's personal to me.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:57 About personal.

Mel Robbins 35:58 Or, "You're too busy-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 35:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 36:00 "... at work and so you never come to see me."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:02 That's right. So it's that, and then the third piece is that victimhood. One thing that, you know, Keith Campbell and I talked about, which is, it's the sense of... The grandiose narcissist, they'll have a big

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:12 dream, and it's big, and they'll do the thing, right? And they may, may, yeah, m- might even succeed. In fact, I think all the big things in our life, in our lives, the big, big stuff, probably there's, there's a lot of grandiose narcissism behind that. The vulnerable, narcissistic people talk about the big thing, and they never take the step.And they never take the step 'cause everyone's against them.

Mel Robbins 36:37 Hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 36:38 "I got the idea for the biggest book ever. It's the biggest book ever. Like, wait till you hear about this. Like, ugh, like, it's, it's g- it's g- it's gonna be so great." Not one word to paper. And like, "Oh, you know what, Mel? You got, you got so many easy breaks. It was all... It was really easy for you. Like, my idea is way bigger than your idea, Mel. But, you know, ugh, I'm not gonna waste my time with these publisher ............................ They're not able to see how great I am." It's that. Does that make sense? They're gonna put you down. They're gonna lift themselves up. They never do the thing, but they talk as though they are doing it. That's a real harm- hallmark of vulnerable narcissism. And ultimately, it looks like failure to launch.

Mel Robbins 37:15 Can you explain triangulation?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:16 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:16 That was a term that my therapist used that really had me go, "Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding." And I think it's tied into the grudge and that feeling of like, "The world is against me," but can you explain that behavior-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:29 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 37:29 ... of triangulation?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:31 So, triangulation's a power move, right? So it is a... It's, it... There's a... Another piece to remember about vulnerable narcissism is there's a lot of passive aggression there.

Mel Robbins 37:40 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 37:41 Right? Passive aggression's a real signature characteristic of vulnerable narcissism and things like the silent treatment and all of that. What passive-aggressive and grudgey people do is they talk through other people. They talk through a third party, right? So it can feel... At times it can feel gossipy, but instead of coming directly to you, talking directly to you, they will plant all these victimized seeds in other people who are fertile targets. Those people might even sympathize with the vulnerable narcissist, making the person who should have been on the other side of the direct communication the villain. So by doing this, they actually, in some strange way, ho- p- l- l- lift themselves up. Everyone's like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. That, that person should have been more supportive. I, I'm so sorry this happened to you. Let me see if I can talk to them."

Mel Robbins 38:32 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:32 And then that person, who you may actually have a good relationship with, is now coming to you, and you're like, "What?" And now, you're kind of having friction with the messenger, but the messenger is really just carrying the bag of grudge that the vulnerable narcissist gave them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:48 And when this happens, you can imagine where this really happens is workplaces. One vulnerable narcissist can upend a really good work team.

Mel Robbins 38:56 Can you give us some examples?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 38:58 So, a great example of that would be you've got the victimized, vulnerable narcissist who doesn't want to work as hard as everyone else, who feels like things should come easier, who might even be jealous of other people in the workplace that are leveling up, right? So they complain to other people. Vulnerable narcissist is savvier than you think 'cause they're paying attention to who the fertile targets are, who's willing to sit with them, who's willing to say, "No, no, no, you're really smart too. I could totally see this working out for you." But what they're doing though too is they're raising suspicion about oftentimes, I mean, the mission and vision of the organization or th- uh, the people who are succeeding in the organization. And what it does is it, it ruins the sense of collaboration.

Mel Robbins 39:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 39:42 So it would be that person who's just like, "Can you believe her? Like, she's... I don't know. I'm not, I'm not such a big fan of her." And then they keep talking and talking and talking. Enough people start to agree, and then you'll see eye-rolling at a meeting, or you might see people just, (groans) like a lot of that stuff. And then, uh, people are noticing like, "Gosh, it feels more tense here than it always was." But it was that one vulnerable narcissistic person who didn't want to do the work, who was always complaining, who was very entitled, but in this grudging way so people felt guilty about it, felt pity for them. And now all of a sudden the energy in the room has changed. In a family?

Mel Robbins 40:18 Oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:18 Forget about it. I mean, it is-

Mel Robbins 40:20 I, I mean, well, I, I sound like... I, I feel like you're describing a family.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:22 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:22 And a parent that then goes to a sibling-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:24 Yep.

Mel Robbins 40:24 ... who's mad at the other-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:26 Sibling.

Mel Robbins 40:26 ... sibling. And so that sibling becomes a messenger. Friend groups-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:30 Yep.

Mel Robbins 40:30 ... where the person who feels left out goes to a friend-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:34 ... to complain that they-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:35 Yep.

Mel Robbins 40:35 ... feel sad so that the friend then goes to the person organizing-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:38 Yep.

Mel Robbins 40:38 ... the party. So-and-so feels left out. Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:41 Mm-hmm. And then what it does though is when we really see triangulation at the highest levels-

Mel Robbins 40:46 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 40:46 ... the narcissistic person's almost like a puppeteer pulling the strings. They get to be above it all, and they get to watch all the chaos that's starting to ensue. So what was once a healthy family, healthy work group, healthy group of friends is now more fractured, centralizing more power in the narcissistic person.

Mel Robbins 41:04 So does the person that has a narcissistic personality style, are they conscious that they're doing this? Or is it like this immature emotional kind of stunted growth inside them that means that when they feel triggered or they feel that sense of grudge

Mel Robbins 41:24 or the entitlement or the insecurity rises up that the emotion floods and this is just what they do?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:31 Mm-hmm. So this is where some people make the argument that narcissism is a trauma response, right? They're very quickly trying to feel safe. As the shame bubbles up, the only way I can describe... Can I use a gross reference? 'Cause I hate to use a gross reference, right?

Mel Robbins 41:43 You can do whatever. You are the world's leading expert. Do it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:45 Okay. This is really gross and downmarket, but I'm gonna say it. If you've ever had terrible diarrhea, okay?

Mel Robbins 41:51 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:51 I'm just gonna be... This is gross 'cause this is as gross as it gets. And you're like, "Oh my God, if I don't get to a bathroom, I'm gonna shit my pants."

Mel Robbins 41:59 Yes. (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 41:59 Right? Think of the shame associated with that. And when you think of the shame, like, "I'm about to shit my pants in an airplane, in an airport, in a work meeting," think of how you feel like you're in a panic.

Mel Robbins 42:09 Well, and also the urgency.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:11 The urgency.

Mel Robbins 42:11 Like, I'm like, "I gotta d..."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:12 Or like-

Mel Robbins 42:13 This is a pr- This, like, right now-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:15 Right.

Mel Robbins 42:15 Get out of my way.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:17 Right. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:18 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:18 Right. So you're not listening to the meeting.

Mel Robbins 42:20 No.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:20 You're not listening to the conversation. You're like, "I have to get to a bathroom, or I'm about to embarrass the hell out of myself. This is awful."

Mel Robbins 42:27 And it gets to the point where you don't even think.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:29 Right.

Mel Robbins 42:29 It, like, overrides.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:31 Okay. So that diarrhea is how a narcissistic person feels every time that shame starts to come up.That's the best way I can describe. So they're just, like, they're not listening to you. They're like, shame coming up, but they don't even know it's shame. At least we know it's, you know-

Mel Robbins 42:45 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:46 ... what it is, right?

Mel Robbins 42:46 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 42:47 But they don't know. So it's this feeling of that sort of psychological diarrhea that's ... And they're like, "Nobody can see this. I, I ..." And so what do they do? Their equivalent of running to the bathroom is to become entitled and grandiose, or in most cases, rageful. When we look at H- Kohut's work on this, who was a, a theoretician wrote back in the '60s and '70s, he would say this shame and rage is one of the central cores of the narcissistic presentation. So what will happen is the, the psychological diarrhea, gotta find a bathroom.

Mel Robbins 43:19 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:19 The bathroom is, "F you, Mel. What do ... You don't know what you're talking about." So now I'm powerful. Mel is small. Crisis averted.

Mel Robbins 43:29 When somebody who has a narcissistic personality style walks into a room-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:33 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:34 ... what might they be feeling?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:35 They're casing the joint. You know how a, a, a thief or burglar walks into a place or drives by a place and they're looking for all the places they could get in? Where could they get in? Where could they get caught? Where might the money be? That's what they're doing with you every ... They're casing the joint every time they meet you. Like, what's the way in? Wh- who, who's got the power in this room? Who do I need to sit next to? Who do I need to talk to? Where's the stuff?

Mel Robbins 43:58 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 43:59 They case the joint. W- they walk into a cocktail party. Watching a narcissistic person walk into a party, I, I don't li- I'm an introvert, so I don't like parties. So when I go, I try to figure out who the narcissists are so I can watch them work the room.

Mel Robbins 44:11 How do you spot them other than the, the kid with the Versace sweatsuit on-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:15 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 44:15 ... in the stroller and the mom-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:16 Well, they're-

Mel Robbins 44:16 ... tapping on her phone?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:17 (laughs) They're the adult with the Vercha- Versace-

Mel Robbins 44:20 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:20 ... (laughs) sweatsuit who are sitting in a str- whatever the adult equivalent-

Mel Robbins 44:23 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:23 ... (laughs) of a stroller is. They are ... They don't look at people. They look through them.

Mel Robbins 44:28 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 44:28 They have a remarkable capacity to be able to look at you, but also be eyeing the door to see if someone more interesting is coming in or if there's someone else more interesting at the bar. It may not be that they're more attractive. It's just that they may bring something cooler, more hip cred, more validation, more supply. They're always working the room. You can always see the sort of sweet, agreeable people who will ... They'll have the long, meandering, boring conversation 'cause they're sort of ... They've committed to it. And then they might find the graceful exit or someone may, you know, puncture the conversation. But the narcissistic person will just go (fingers snap) and go until they find the best, if you will, target. Listen, I live in LA. So every so often, especially before the pandemic, I think since the pandemic, my da- dance card has been less full, but before I'd go to parties where there'd be some people of some notoriety. Ooh, the narcissistic people, when they'd see that fame-y fame person walk in, you ... I- it's a wonder they didn't trip trying to get over to them. Like, they would just abruptly leave conversations and then they would just cleave themselves to the so-called famous, notorious, powerful Hollywood person. It was ... I mean, it was, it was actually quite fun to watch. They're like heat-seeking missiles. As soon as they found the power center of a group, that's where they're going to put their focus.

Mel Robbins 45:47 Hm. You've got, uh, new research in It's Not You, and one of the things that you write about are the four myths-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:53 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:53 ... about narcissism.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:54 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 45:54 Can you unpack those for us?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:56 So, you know, one

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 45:57 of the key myths is that narcissistic people are always men, and I think that that's a dangerous myth, right? And again, I'm using the gender binary here. We still are ... That ... This research is evolving, so-

Mel Robbins 46:08 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:08 ... keep in mind. Research often has like a 10 to 15 year delay, if you will. But using the binary is that narcissistic p- grandiose narcissists are more likely to be men. The combativeness-

Mel Robbins 46:19 Does- What is the m- malignant narcissist?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:20 So malignant narcissism is actually the most severe form of narcissism. I always call it the last stop on the narcissism train before it veers

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:28 into psychopathy station. It's the ... It's where we see the dark tetrad, where narcissism, Machiavellianism or the willingness to exploit others, psychopathy, and sadism all come together. And that's a lot of what we see in malignant narcissism. They are more coercive. They are more exploitative. They are more manipulative. They're more isolating. They don't tend to have the big, bright, shiny, um, grandiose personalities.

Mel Robbins 46:55 So is this when you get into severe emotional and physical abuse?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 46:59 Correct.

Mel Robbins 47:00 Okay.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:00 Yes. And it may not even be physical. May just simply be severe isolated, coercively controlling kinds of e- financial abuse, um-

Mel Robbins 47:08 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 47:08 ... emotional abuse, that kind of thing. It's more menacing. Um, and I think that those kinds of qualities, again, tend not to be selected for in women, so we're gonna see that more in men. But when we talk about communal narcissism, that sort of savior narcissism, this is where we see everything from new age folks, to cult leaders, to people who think they're saving the world. And it's, well, people like saving the world, like, what do you mean they're rescuing puppies? How could that be bad? They're rescuing puppies though to get validation and admiration. They probably like the puppies well enough, but if nobody's recognizing all their puppy saving or their environmental saving or w- whatever it is they're doing, they get angry. They have to be recognized as humanitarians. They not only put themselves out there as these great humanitarian saviors, they still treat the people they're closest to quite terribly. A great example of this would be the person like, "You're dad, psh, pillar of the community. You're so lucky to be his kid," in the little league, and the mayor, and the small town, and behind closed doors is screaming at that family, humiliating them, shaming them. And yet the world says, "Psh, your dad's a pillar of the community."

Mel Robbins 48:19 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:19 That's a great example of communal narcissism.

Mel Robbins 48:21 So first myth that men are the narcissists.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:25 Right.

Mel Robbins 48:25 What's the next myth?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 48:26 The second myth is that this is just bragging. It's just arrogance. It's just posturing. It's what we were talking about earlier. I think that if somebody meets someone arrogant, they're like, "Oh, that's a narcissist." And I'll always say, "Slow down, sister." Like, let's spend a little bit more time. I'm digging in. I'm trying to find the entitlement. It's a little bit hard to find sometimes because might take a minute to unfurl. That's why even therapists, it takes us a minute.... before we could really say definitively someone has a narcissistic personality or a narcicisstic personality disorder. Just because it's a person's arrogant, just because a person's wearing designer labels, it doesn't mean they're narcissistic. So, I say we have to be careful when it's sort of these forward kind of facing characteristics.

Mel Robbins 49:05 The Grudge really hit me and so did this distinction that you mentioned earlier between, the difference between somebody being annoying versus somebody's behavior being harmful.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:14 That's exactly right. And that's the, and that's the piece where, you know, this is what concerns me about the sort of, the TikTokifiction of narcissism, because what you're seeing there, and I've h- I've run into this over and over again, a lot of the folks out there who sometimes put out narcissism content were hurt by a narcissist. I'll give you a classical example. Somebody's boyfriend cheats on them. "He's a narcissist!" I'm like, "He cheated on you. Not okay, but I need more."

Mel Robbins 49:40 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:40 Okay? So I think that this idea that somebody cheats, that makes them a narcissist, do narcissists cheat more than other people? Absolutely. Absolutely. Is everyone who cheats a narcissist? No. So, I think that when a person's hurt in one way, we, they want to make that leap.

Mel Robbins 49:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 49:57 We even have to be careful there. So, yes, and it's annoying, it is immature. We really latch onto the superficiality part of it. Just because somebody puts selfies on Instagram, it doesn't make them a narcissist. You know, there could just, they could just be a sweetie. They just might just say, "Look. An autumn leaves tree, and this is me in front of it." And in some ways it's k- I, I look at those and I'm like, "Sweet, but I mean, uh," I mean it's a little , it's immature. It's immature.

Mel Robbins 50:24 Well, well I think what you're saying is really good, so now I feel terrible about slamming the baby in the Varat, Versace thing, but-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:29 (laughs) I'm willing to take that bet, Mel.

Mel Robbins 50:31 Because-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:33 Other parents.

Mel Robbins 50:33 ... there are multiple check boxes-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:36 That's exactly right.

Mel Robbins 50:36 ... in that scenario in a certain age and behavior by parents.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:42 That's right.

Mel Robbins 50:42 Because I don't blame the child-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:43 No.

Mel Robbins 50:44 ... at all.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:44 No.

Mel Robbins 50:45 And I also, in learning everything that I've learned, in a weird way, the person that I'm closest to in my life that has a narcissistic personality style, I don't even blame her. Oh, we shouldn't say them. I don't even blame them.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 50:59 Right.

Mel Robbins 50:59 Because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:07 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:07 ... that stunts somebody's emotional growth.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:10 Right.

Mel Robbins 51:10 I don't even blame them-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:12 Right.

Mel Robbins 51:12 ... because I understand what you're saying, which is this can be the result of adverse childhood experiences-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:20 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 51:20 ... that stunts somebody's emotional growth.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:23 Right. And this is where it gets the most tricky for survivors-

Mel Robbins 51:27 Uh-oh.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:27 ... right?

Mel Robbins 51:27 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:27 'Cause I hear you, and that's-

Mel Robbins 51:28 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:28 ... exactly what I know and many of the people I've known who are narcissistic clients I've treated and all of that, to still keep pinning it down to, and their behavior is not acceptable. Y- number one, you're not responsible for their history. Number two, if they are a sentient, functional

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 51:46 human being, they can take responsibility for their mental health. They have put you in the position of using you as a tool of regulation, pacifier, and punching bag. That's not okay. Right? They can take responsibility. But, they will dine out for the rest of their life on the idea of, "I had a tough childhood," and they will, n- these days more than ever, will commandeer the rough childhood explanation as the explanation for their behavior. This is why I'm saying we have to be careful. While narcissism may be, in part, a trauma response, I'm gonna push back on that a little, which is, a person who is, had an adverse childhood-

Mel Robbins 52:28 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 52:28 ... and is having consistent trauma responses, for example, safety behaviors and all that, they tend to be consistent. The narcissistic person knows what they're doing. How do we know they're, know what they're doing? 'Cause you've gone through this too. Think of the dinner party scenario. The dinner party, they're so charming. In fact, someone even ribs them, makes a funny little joke at their expense and they laugh, "Ha ha ha ha." You're thinking, "Maybe I judged this person wrong, maybe they're not narcissistic." You get in the car at the end of the night and they go off for the next hour. They knew what they were doing. They waited till they got in the car. That's not a lack of insight. They knew exactly what they were doing.

Mel Robbins 53:04 There's another huge insight that's brand new for me, 'cause I think I've probably overindexed on the-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:09 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 53:09 ... explain it away-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:11 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:11 ... be empathetic, have sympathy-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:13 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:13 ... while trying to remind myself I'm not responsible for it.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:16 So what I just shared was myth three, that this idea that,

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:19 that they don't know what they're doing. This is why this is such an important point. That person who's careful, they make sure there's no one else in the car-

Mel Robbins 53:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:26 ... when no one's, when they're on speaker. They scream at you after the dinner party's done. All the dinner party guests, the family, might still think they're a cool person, 'cause they've never seen the rage. Then that person experiencing that relationship often not only doesn't have support, they're having to endure other people saying, "Your," whoever it was, "your friend, what a great person," or like, "Love the new boyfriend," and you're like, "Everybody likes them." And then what do you do? Well, if everybody likes them-

Mel Robbins 53:53 What's wrong with me?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 53:54 ... it's, it's gotta be me, and that's why the book's called It's Not You.

Mel Robbins 53:57 (laughs) Wow.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:00 T- the fourth myth, and this is sort of the, the, the myth to, to rule all other myths, which is, they can change, right? Everyone can change. Okay, so let's start with the simplest example. I'm gonna u- I'm gonna put myself here on the chopping block. I am an agreeable introvert. That's Dr. Ramani's personality. No matter how bad a day it is, I'll roll up to the person at the airport, "Hi, how are you?" Or that c- 'cause I'm thinking, "I don't know what day they just had," so I'll really say, "You gotta be, you gotta show up, you gotta be warm and friendly, even if you're not feeling it, 'cause kindness is good." My agreeableness has been there, m- if you ask my mother, she'll say, "From the day you were born, you were the sweetest, easiest baby in the world. Smiling in every picture, right?" But I'm an introvert. If somebody says, "You know, Ramani, you'd be so much more successful if you were a bit more entitled, put yourself first, could be a little bit more arrogant. Like, do it." My team sometimes is like, "Come on, you gotta like-

Mel Robbins 54:51 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 54:51 ... put yourself out there, Ramani." And when I do, I feel sick.I can't do it. The times I'd be like, "I need to be first," I'm like, "Don't... No, I don't." I can't do it. But if let's say somebody even said, "Just go out there, be more entitled, be more grandiose, be more arrogant, be all these things. Stop having all this empathy. Like, stop." What is the likelihood I could do that?

Mel Robbins 55:13 Zero.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:13 And be, and be the life of the party?

Mel Robbins 55:15 Zero.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:15 And... Okay, so if I can't make those changes, why would the narcissist? And my personality's less rigid than theirs. If I can't become a disagreeable extrovert tomorrow, why would the narcissistic person become a big huggy, empathic, unentitled, open, vulnerable person? I can't do it, neither can they. And they're less likely to do it because their personality's more rigid.

Mel Robbins 55:39 Wow. I mean, that makes all the sense in the world.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 55:41 Yeah, so we have, we're actually asking something unreasonable of the narcissistic people when we think that they can change. And when you throw in there they're less likely to go to therapy, and when they start going to therapy, they're 60% more likely to drop out of therapy, when is this change actually gonna happen?

Mel Robbins 55:57 So, is that the reason why we don't know how many narcissists there are-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:01 Yeah, we really don't.

Mel Robbins 56:01 ... because they don't go to therapy?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:02 They don't... Not only do they not go to therapy, a lot of the research, Mel, focuses on measuring how many people have narcissistic personality disorder. And that, you're gonna see rates of 1 to 6%, right?

Mel Robbins 56:13 Versus a style.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:14 But versus the personality style, where we're never gonna get those numbers. People have said, "Come on, spitball a number." If I were to spitball a number, 20%, one in five.

Mel Robbins 56:22 That high?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:23 Enough narcissism to cause problems in relationships, yeah. Do they have NPD? I have no idea. But one in five people, I think, has enough narcissism to cause a problem. I think if you go to major metropolitan areas, it's gonna be worse. I think if you, in certain industries, it's gonna be far worse. Finance, law, politics, media, athletics, celebrity, much, much worse.

Mel Robbins 56:44 Wow. Um, there are five different patterns-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:48 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 56:49 ... that narcissists have-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 56:50 ... that you write about in your new book, It's Not You!

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 56:52 Mm-hmm. Yeah, so DIMR is an acronym I use to sort of help not only people who are going through these relationships, but clinicians organize the pattern. The DIMR patterns, and I use the term DIMRs because it really turns down our light. And narcissistic people are dismissive, invalidating, manipulative, minimizing, but also un-... gaslighting is in that-

Mel Robbins 57:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 57:15 ... mini- manipulation. They're entitled, and they're rageful. And all of those patterns, the dismissiveness, the invalidation, the minimization, the manipulation, they turn off our light, because the only way we can then survive in a relationship with a narcissist, if we don't know what it is, right? The only way we can survive is by giving in, which means subjugating ourselves to them, pretty much living in their service. Because when you do that, the narcissist views us like I view this cup. Right now, I love this cup 'cause it's holding the water I need, I'm fond of the cup, thank you, cup. And that's even a stretch to thank the cup. When this is over, I'm gonna throw this cup out, because I have no more use for this cup. That's how a narcissist views a person.

Mel Robbins 58:01 Well, what I find fascinating about that is that you, um, constantly think about the narcissist in your life.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:08 All the time.

Mel Robbins 58:09 But they don't think about you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:10 No, unless they need you, and then they think about you a lot. So you... Like this cup, I'm thinking about this cup now, I'm about to take a drink out of it. They are not, they're not thinking about you, unless you serve a function, or, or unless they think they're gonna lose you. The one thing we forget about narcissistic folks is they don't like abandonment, because it is a loss of control. They... There's an argument that narcissistic folks also have attachment issues. They either have anxious attachments, avoidant attachments, or a mix of both, but definitely insecure attachments. So the idea that their source of supply could get up and leave, and that's not what they want, means that they've lost control of the narrative, and they will punish that person for doing that.

Mel Robbins 58:53 Another one that you write about is domination.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 58:55 Mm-hmm. Domination patterns are classical in narcissistic relationships, because the function of a relationship for a narcissistic person is really to give them a place of power, domination, and control. And it's the only way they can function in a relationship. So as a result, all narcissistic relationships are asymmetric. There will never be balance and equity in a narcissistic relationship. They have to have more power. So that's why, for example, in an intimate relationship, a narcissistic person will often want to ma- h- have more money. And if their partner has more money, that's not gonna work for them. I re- remember working with

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 59:31 a client where th- there's a woman, and then she had a very narcissistic partner. She made the money. She's incredibly successful at what she did. And he was absolute textbook malignant narcissist. And he would cut her down constantly, cheated on her all the time. Anything to make her feel smaller and smaller and smaller. Then one day, he got into a new line of work, and his career really skyrocketed. Then the balance switched. He was now making more money. And m- and money is a very, very powerful source of supply for narcissistic people, because in our culture, it's one of the fastest routes to power you can get. So then, he continued doing all the abusive things, but now he was much more secure in the relationship. And strangely, he started behaving a little better, whatever better is. But you see the same thing in families too, right? It's, it's all about power, domination, and control. And it doesn't have to be the patriarch or the matriarch. It could literally be a sibling who is the one who is exerting that kind of power, domination, and control. And so we... It's, it's... The power isn't always where you'd think. Now, obviously when you have a narcissistic father, for example, it can really, really be painful for everyone involved-

Mel Robbins 1:00:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:39 ... because that person's already more societally powered-

Mel Robbins 1:00:42 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:42 ... you know, just by being a, um, a man i- in charge of a family. But that, that's a cr- central, central motivation. I think what happens for a lot of folks who fall in love with a narcissistic person-

Mel Robbins 1:00:52 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:00:52 ... is they believe you both want the same thing. "You, you... We're in love! We're doing love things!" I'm like, "No, no, no, no. You're in love. They're in power. Understand the difference."

Mel Robbins 1:01:02 Whoa!That's a big one. You're in love, they're in power. Understand the difference. That leads right into love bombing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:13 What is love bombing?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:14 Okay. So love bombing is a strategic approach a narcissistic person takes at the beginning of a relationship to win a person over and secure them as a source of supply. In the most classical, grandiose form of love bombing, it's a, a relationship that feels like a fairy tale.

Mel Robbins 1:01:33 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:33 It's dinners out. It's love texts. "Good morning, my angel."

Mel Robbins 1:01:37 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:01:37 "Good night, my princess." "How's my queen this morning?" That stuff is narcissism central. It's, "This is the greatest love story ever told." Like, h- "Where have you been my whole life?" On Instagram, "Found my soulmate." Soulmate. Narcissistic. I see or hear soulmate, and I'm like, "Someone's in a narcissistic relationship." You know how it's like every time a bell rings-

Mel Robbins 1:02:00 Yep.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:00 ... an angel gets their wings?

Mel Robbins 1:02:01 Yep.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:01 Every time I hear soulmate, someone fell in love with a narcissist. Same thing. Like, that is... That kind of talk, magic connection, once in a lifetime, picnics

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:11 on the beach, "Let's fly to Paris. Let's spend every day together for two weeks. Good night, queen. Good morning, king," all that stuff, that's love bombing. However, that's not the only way it shows up, 'cause some people say, "That did not happen to me." Love bombing also might play on. For example, let's say someone's a rescuer and especially with a vulnerable narcissistic person. Vulnerable narcissists are really, really good at pulling for pity early in a relationship.

Mel Robbins 1:02:38 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:02:39 Like, you know, "I'm so lucky I met you. You're such a good listener. Like, nothing's ever gone right in my life, and you come along. You're listening. Like, I guess my luck's changed, but, oh, my gosh, thank you." And so you're like, "My project. I am going to save them." And if that's your thing, then they are the ultimate... They're like a fixer upper of a human being. So you're like, "No, no, no. I know a guy. I'm gonna introduce you to this guy." Like, he... Oh, your car's not working? Oh, please take mine. No problem." Or, "I, I got you. Like, we are going to make your dreams come true." That is crack for a vulnerable narcissistic person. So it can be this rather vulnerable opening up, and that's how their love bombing shows up.

Mel Robbins 1:03:22 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:22 But the mistake people make is we only think of love bombing in a romantic way. Love bombing can happen in families. In a family... When a family member needs something from you... Now listen, your family, your parents didn't love bomb you 'cause you kinda like... It was built into the model. Like, they... You're like, you had to love 'em.

Mel Robbins 1:03:37 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:03:37 Like, you had no choice. But as time goes on, narcissistic parents will do the equivalent of love bombing. They need the kid... They need the kid to be what they want. Like, "Hey, honey." Like, "You're the best. Oh my gosh, you're, you're doing so great." Like, "You're gonna go out, and you're gonna win that game. It is pizza. It is ice cream. You wanna go to Disneyland? You wanna go to... I'll take you to Disneyland." So it's the parent throws the little goodies in there to get the kid in line, sometimes even to be a source of supply for them. And as you get into adulthood with a narcissistic parent or a narcissistic family member, they will do that same sort of, "You're the best. Here's all this stuff. We'll do anything you want to be able to keep you," maybe sometimes just on the narcissistic supply chain of the family.

Mel Robbins 1:04:21 I do have one question about the love bombing 'cause I saw this happen with somebody that I care deeply about, the like, "You're my queen. I love you, angel." Ugh. And the problem is when that happens to you, as a human, you literally do think you found Prince Charming-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:04:36 ... or you found the one. And, like, all of your chemicals in your body are going bananas-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:42 Yes, they are. Yes, they are.

Mel Robbins 1:04:42 ... because you're attracted to this person-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:45 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:04:45 ... and they're... Like, what do you do?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:48 You ask such an important question because the other thing that happens in love bombing is that the person, the narcissistic person tries to push the accelerator on the relationship.

Mel Robbins 1:04:56 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:04:56 They want it to go fast. If they wanna lock down your supply, right... Remember, the narcissistic person uses a relationship not only to get s- to get supply and want to... A key form of supply is status. So-

Mel Robbins 1:05:08 What do you mean by supply?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:09 Supply is-

Mel Robbins 1:05:09 You've used that word a lot.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:11 ... is the admiration you bring a person, the validation you bring a person. It could be your attractiveness. It could be money. It could be social status. It could be sex. It could be time. It could be novelty. Remember, the reason love bombing works is that it's new not only for you but for them.

Mel Robbins 1:05:27 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:05:28 Narcissistic people are reward seekers, but they don't care as much about punishment. So they don't think about consequences; they think about reward. There's one... There are biological theories of narcissism that suggests, like the nucleus accumbens, those areas of the brain that are very sort of dopamine happy parts of the brain, that reward sensitivity, that has been shown in the research to be very much the case, that they don't think about the punishment, the thing down the road. They think about the thing that feels good in front of them. But they are trying to lock down the supply. So if you're a good source of supply, you're a pr- you praise them a lot. "You're so hot. You're so cool. You're so great. Let's go Instagram official." You know, anything that's bringing them-

Mel Robbins 1:06:07 (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:07 ... what they want-

Mel Robbins 1:06:08 This is just like- (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:09 ... is attention, right?

Mel Robbins 1:06:10 I know. But as a 55-year-old woman, I'm, uh, you know, I see it happening with so many-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:16 Toof.

Mel Robbins 1:06:16 ... 20-somethin'. I'm like, "You're not... You did not meet the love of your life. You are not marrying this person-"

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:21 No.

Mel Robbins 1:06:22 "... right now. Calm your fricking jets."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:24 Mel, I'm gonna, I'm gonna call you out on that.

Mel Robbins 1:06:26 Keep your IUD in.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:28 Here's the thing-

Mel Robbins 1:06:28 Like, let's not lock this sucker down.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:30 Mm-mm.

Mel Robbins 1:06:30 Like, you are an irrational, insecure, you're a fa- like, obviously, I can't say this to somebody.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:38 But I'm gonna call you out on that. Let's not just be mean to the 20-year-olds. I am watching 55-year-old women fall-

Mel Robbins 1:06:43 Oh, I'm sure because, like, if you're newly out of a marriage or you've been single forever and somebody suddenly comes out of the blue, I understand. Like, we all want attention-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:06:56 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:06:56 ... and to feel good. But how do you discern? I guess 'cause a normal person doesn't go, "You're my queen.... 10 seconds after they meet you.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:07 The thing is, the narcissist is too clever to say, "You're my queen," (laughs) 10 seconds after meeting you.

Mel Robbins 1:07:12 Well, it's like the date that goes for 48 hours.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:13 That's exactly right. It's the date that goes on for 48 hours. It's, they say goodnight. And think of it, let's say somebody's been dating a bunch of people who aren't responsive, who wait three days to text and all that, which narcissists can do as well. But a really full-court press love bomber, they'll send that, "Are you home, baby? Can't stop thinking about you." Ding. And then in the morning, "Good morning, queen-

Mel Robbins 1:07:38 Angel.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:07:38 ... I just dreamt about you." Ding, middle of the day. They, th- they, but the really good love bombers, they don't go crazy, it's not every hour. Maybe around lunchtime, like, "Hey, I hope your day is going well." Um, and then they might even wait a minute. They're still not the second day. They're, they're very, very tactical.

Mel Robbins 1:07:54 So what would happen, let's just say that somebody hears you and they're taking everything that you're saying to heart. And a couple months from now, you get in a new relationship. You go on this absolutely fabulous date, right? The next morning, "Angel, I hope you slept well. I dreamt about you all night." Like, literally (retching) and something, the... And then middle of the day, can't get any work done, can't stop thinking about you, can't

Mel Robbins 1:08:19 wait to see you. That night, another date, goes all night. Breakfast, like, it's just like, what are the, you know, what, when are we getting married? This, and you start to go, "Oh, somewhere in the back of my mind between the dopamine rush and the sex hormones that are flying through my body, I remember Dr. Ramani saying something about the fact that this could be love bombing." Like, is there a stance you could take just to test the waters a little bit where you don't respond for 24 hours. And then like, like is there something to do-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:52 Mm.

Mel Robbins 1:08:52 ... to interrupt yourself?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:53 Okay. Here's the thing.

Mel Robbins 1:08:54 'Cause you're not gonna stop the love bombing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:08:55 Have you ever been on vacation a place like Hawaii or some other tropical island?

Mel Robbins 1:09:00 Not Hawaii, but somewhere else, yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:01 Some other tropical island.

Mel Robbins 1:09:02 Yes, yes, yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:02 'Cause you've been on a vacation like that, right?

Mel Robbins 1:09:04 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:04 Did you move there?

Mel Robbins 1:09:06 No.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:07 You came home?

Mel Robbins 1:09:09 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:10 Would've been nice to stay there.

Mel Robbins 1:09:13 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:13 Umbrella drinks-

Mel Robbins 1:09:14 Yeah.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:14 ... days in the sun reading the book, right? Like, telling people to interrupt the love bombing is telling people, "You just got to Maui, come home."

Mel Robbins 1:09:22 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:22 Stay in Maui for a week, have some fun. But as soon as like, um, you know, kind of miss my cat, my dog, uh, god, I kind of miss my bed, (snaps fingers) come back.

Mel Robbins 1:09:32 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:09:33 Ride the love bomb out, have some fun. You wanna test it, the things you'll see early on are things like they're, they're, the narcissistic person doesn't tolerate disappointment well. If anything pings their entitlement, for example, they don't get the table they want. There is a wait at the restaurant. They did lose the reservation. The bags get lost. And they get really, really crunchy and entitled. You just got your first sign. And catch yourself in the excuse, like, "Well, we did just have an overnight flight." It's not okay to yell at somebody for not finding the bag, all right?

Mel Robbins 1:10:07 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:07 You've now gotten your first piece, piece of data. One of the most interesting things I remember learning in graduate school was supervisor told me, we were learn- I was learning to be a therapist. He said to me, "The first time something happens, it happens. The second time something happens, it's a coincidence. The third time it happens, it's a pattern."

Mel Robbins 1:10:24 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:25 So take the first time as what it is, call the second time a coincidence. By the time the third time comes, it's time to leave Maui. Pack those bags and come home. Because I, as a psychologist can tell you, it's impossible for me to tell someone to leave something that feels that good.

Mel Robbins 1:10:41 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:10:42 The key is that when you're getting good morning queen soulmate nonsense, to recognize this for the tropical vacation that it is, and remind yourself that this is, this, this is going to run out. I am going to need to go back to real life again. And when, and that rule of threes hits and say, "Yeah, no, this isn't cool. This isn't okay." But that is a really, really tough nut to crack because what the love bombing does, and this is why it's such a useful tactic, it creates buy-in. Because what has happened is you've now created the idealized foundation of a relationship, and maybe that's the, that's the thing is that idealization really has no place in a relationship, is that we're, we, we're trying to fall in love with the whole person.

Mel Robbins 1:11:29 Mm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:29 And the whole person isn't always a day at the beach. The whole person is the regular stuff. But unfortunately in the app dating world we're in, narcissistic people have the best dating profiles. They have the most curated images. They've got, like, they're in cool places and they always look good, and the abs

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:11:45 and the whole thing. It's a whole thing. Like, and so you're really trying to, to catch people as they get lost in this world of love bombing and all of that, is telling them to go against human biology. That's a tough sell, you know? And I think that te- teaching people more than, like, when these sorts of little red flags start popping up, pay attention. If it feels too much, it is too much. And you're a grown adult. It's not supposed to be a fairy tale. I still think we live in a rom-com world-

Mel Robbins 1:12:21 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:21 ... and where we think this is a normal way to have a relationship, and I also think that the West is very romance oriented.

Mel Robbins 1:12:28 It's true.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:28 You just, and any, any world where there's lots of romance is where the narcissists are gonna win. So I guess I'm telling, uh, (laughs) it, I think we're around Valentine's Day now. I'm saying say goodbye to the romance. Buy the chocolates the day after Valentine's are 50% off, and stop playing into this game ahead of time. But you're in a relationship with someone, some of the devaluing has started. They're being a little shady with someone, shady DMs, shady texts, shady behavior-

Mel Robbins 1:12:54 Lying about where they are.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:55 ... lying about where they are.

Mel Robbins 1:12:56 Disappearing for a while.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:12:57 Yeah. Disappearing for a while. You call them out, and you know, some gaslighting, some denial. You've got some evidence they don't wanna lose you, love bomb too.Right? So the second love bombs are usually to get- for them to restabilize the ship and to get the validation and to get your, again, your supply back the way they want it. But the thing is, you'll also have these cycles where they will behave badly and then they'll behave well. They'll have a good day at work. They'll be really nice. They'll say, "Let's go out to dinner." And then two days later, they are gaslighting you, chiding you, and humiliating you.

Mel Robbins 1:13:31 See, now I'm back to going, "I think I'm a narcissist." 'Cause some- (laughs) you know what I mean? 'Cause I listen to you and I'm like, "Okay, I have a good day at work, then I have a bad day at work."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:38 Right, but how do you treat-

Mel Robbins 1:13:39 I'm really nice to Chris.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:40 ... other people? You're- you're mean to the per- people in your life?

Mel Robbins 1:13:42 Never.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:13:42 But that's my point. You ha- listen, on our good days, we're always a little nicer. I just had this conversation with someone this morning 'cause I had a terrible night last night, five hours of work hell last night. And I was in the worst mood. Talked to one of my best friends that night and I said, "I'm about to be a terrible person to you. I love you so much." And she's like, "I got you, go." So it wasn't like I went in there and I wasn't trying to hurt her, but I knew the things I was gonna say were gonna be abrupt and icky.

Mel Robbins 1:14:08 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:08 I had self-reflection. She is a good friend. She's like, "All good, you never need to give me a disclaimer. I love you." And then we had the conversation. This morning, I had such a terrible day, it lingered into the morning, and I was talking to someone and I said to him, "Blah, blah, blah, la, la, la." And I said, "I'm so

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:24 sorry, you're on- you're on a trip. I don't wanna harm your trip." He's like, "No, no, no, I get it." And I said, "And now I have to jump abruptly 'cause I've gotta go, I've gotta get to Mel's."

Mel Robbins 1:14:31 And now I feel bad that you're here-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:33 And no, are you kidding me?

Mel Robbins 1:14:33 ... after having such a bad day. (laughs) You know what I mean?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:35 You've lifted my-

Mel Robbins 1:14:36 Oh, I'm sorry. (laughs)

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:37 But you see these dances we're in, like-

Mel Robbins 1:14:38 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:38 ... oh, I'm so sorry you did that. I'm like, oh, sorry to my friend and to this other person I was talking to. So that awareness-

Mel Robbins 1:14:44 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:14:45 ... that we give, we- we say, "I am so sorry. Please, I, I, uh, uh, ah, ahead of time, I don't wanna say anything that hurts, but I am- I'm not in my best right now." I'm showing an awareness, that other person is prepared. I might even say, "I'm so sorry. All I did was talk about myself this conversation. I just had to let this go." There is an awareness. Now, next time I talk to these people, I'm gonna call them both this evening-

Mel Robbins 1:15:05 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:05 ... and say, "How are you doing? I- I hammered-

Mel Robbins 1:15:07 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:07 ... on about myself." That, a narcissistic person's not gonna do that. Do you see the difference?

Mel Robbins 1:15:11 I see the difference.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:12 So I had the good day, I have the bad day, you have the good day, the- you have the bad day. You have the self-reflection on the bad day, do not scream at people, might say, "I'm not gonna be my best tonight," or, "Tonight's a pizza night," or, "Could I have an hour to myself?"

Mel Robbins 1:15:23 Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Uh, I love this concept in your book, It's Not You, of the C-suite-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:30 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:15:30 ... as being the gateway to love bombing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:32 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:15:32 Can you explain what that is?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:34 Yes. So we're, here we're talking about narcissistic relationships and how terrible they are, right? And how it- it could be in a- in a whether, especially in an intimate relationship, but in any relationship. You're thinking, "Well, why are we running away as soon as we see them yelling at the server?"

Mel Robbins 1:15:49 Yes.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:15:50 Because everybody's vulnerable to these relationships. And this idea that are there some people more vulnerable than others? No. And that's the C-suite. Why are we all vulnerable to them? Because they are charming, they are charismatic, they are confident, they are curious about us, they have great credentials. And in a weird way, especially if you had narcissistic parents and we meet a narcissistic person in adulthood, they're even a weird source of comfort because it's our chance number two to win over the person who is not fully loving us. Like, "I know this game. I'm gonna be fabulous and I'm gonna make them love me 'cause that's how love works, right? I'm gonna earn it from them." 'Cause if someone just rolls up and loves you, you're like, "That's boring," right?

Mel Robbins 1:16:38 Right.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:38 That's the thing you push back, you get. But that especially the charisma, the confidence, the charm. I mean, it's- it's an odd thing to tell people when someone's charismatic-

Mel Robbins 1:16:48 Why isn't it there all the time though?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:49 It, because-

Mel Robbins 1:16:50 You know what I mean? Like, this is the thing that's so damn confusing.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:16:52 It's a transaction. It's a transaction. They're trying to get your supply. They- they know, again, it's that conscious knowing how to turn it on and turn it off. Any of us, I mean, you must know, Mel. You said you know narcissistic people. Tell me they were not some of the most charming, charismatic, shiny, sparkly people you've ever known.

Mel Robbins 1:17:08 It's true. I- I think there are two enormous takeaways that I have from this conversation so far. Number one, that there is a difference between their behavior and it being acceptable. Like, that they're- they, like you said this thing earlier that made me go, "Holy cow, you're absolutely right." Their behavior is what their behavior is, and that is completely separate from whether or not it is appropriate.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:41 Correct.

Mel Robbins 1:17:41 And-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:41 Regardless of their backstory.

Mel Robbins 1:17:43 Regardless of their backstory. And that's an enormous piece of it that I think I have explained away so much of the bad behavior and the kind of broken dynamic-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:56 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:17:58 ... because of the backstory.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:17:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:18:00 And the overextension of empathy and consideration has put me in a position where I have tolerated the behavior.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:10 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:18:10 I have made excuses for the behavior.

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:12 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:18:12 I have felt bad for the person-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:15 Yep.

Mel Robbins 1:18:15 ... when the tantrums or the grudges or the this or the that. I tune it out and I have not given myself the permission to say, "Hey, you are who you are, but how you're behaving around me is not appropriate."

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:18:28 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:18:29 The second thing that has been an enormous eye-opener because I always fixated on the fact that somebody is not necessarily born this way, that it's made in childhood, it's a personality style, it is like concrete, you're not gonna change it. But when you started explaining how selective somebody is, how they turn it off and on, how they target you versus a sibling or they target a certain situation versus an other situation, you're 1,000% right-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:01 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:19:02 ... that there is this complete conscious direction-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:06 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:19:07 ... of when I'm going to explode, when I'm not gonna explode-

Dr. Ramani Durvasula 1:19:10 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:19:10 ... who I'm gonna gripe to, who I'm not gonna gripe to. And that is so empowering to me because it allows me to