The Mel Robbins PodcastStop Wasting Your Time: The Scientific Way to Stop Procrastination and Get Control of Your Day
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
80 min read · 16,411 words- 0:00 – 9:17
Meet The Guest
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You are a productive person. You are getting a lot done. People depend on you. You are doing the things you have to do. I want you to make time for the things you want to do.
- MRMel Robbins
Today, you and I are here with the very wise, very practical, and very real Laura Vanderkam, and we're learning how to take control of our free time. For so much of my life, whether it was because I had a really stressful job or taking care of kids or taking care of aging parents, I felt like my entire life were things I have to do.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
There are certain phases of life when things feel more crunched, when they feel more intense, when the choices feel a little bit more fraught. But I promise it is possible, even in the middle of a busy Tuesday, even when life seems chaotic, we can enjoy ourselves. We can have moments of fun, and not only that, I think people deserve to have moments of fun. I've seen people's lives transformed by finding an hour to do something that they enjoy in the course of the week, and it changes their narrative. My life is no longer out of my control, at the mercy of everyone else. I am the kind of person who makes space for things that are fun for me. Next week is gonna have its own problems. Uh, next month is gonna have its own crises. We need to figure out strategies that allow us to live a good life now.
- MRMel Robbins
You start to feel more empowered.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You start feeling less overwhelmed.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Right? Life starts feeling more calm. You feel like you are making progress on your goals, and that's a much better place to be starting from.
- MRMel Robbins
Laura Vanderkam, welcome-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Thank you!
- MRMel Robbins
... to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Thanks. Yeah, thanks for having me. I'm, I'm so excited to be here.
- MRMel Robbins
So here's how I wanna start. I would love to have you speak directly to the person who's with us right now, somebody who doesn't have a lot of time, but they have made the time to learn from you. What could you tell them is gonna be different about their life if they take everything to heart that you're about to share based on your research and your expertise about time?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I am so happy you are here today. Anyone listening to this show, I know you are a productive person. You are getting a lot done. People depend on you. You are doing the things you have to do. I want you to make time for the things you want to do, right? I want everyone listening to this to wake up in the morning knowing there's something exciting and wonderful waiting for you in the day. That is what time management is about, right? It's not about squeezing more in that you have to do. It's about making space for the good stuff.
- MRMel Robbins
Laura, already my mouth is on the floor. You, you said something so simple, and I wanna make sure that you got it as you were listening to Laura or watching this right now. There's a big difference between the things you have to do and the things that you want to do, and for so much of my life, whether it was because I had a really stressful job, and jobs always have a lot of have-tos, or taking care of kids or taking care of aging parents, I felt like my entire life were things I have to do. You're going to teach us that there is time available to do things we want to do, even though there's a lot we have to do?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I promise you, even if you have a lot you have to do, and I know everyone does these days, there is space for the things you want to do, and not only that, you deserve to have space for the things you want to do. You are doing so much for everyone. I promise there's time for yourself as well.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, my God. Well, I can't wait to find these little pockets of free time- [laughing]
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... I can't wait to find them for people.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, it doesn't feel like you have any free time. I mean, is that a common thing that you've found when you're researching these topics, that people feel like they have no free time?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
A lot of people will say, "Yes, I have no free time whatsoever." I can promise you, I've studied thousands of people's schedules. Everybody has some discretionary time. Now, it may not be as much time as you want, I totally believe that, but there's a big difference between not as much as I want and none.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
When people say, "I have no free time whatsoever," they mean, "I don't have as much free time as I want." But when we approach this question from, "I have some free time, it's just not as much as I want," well, that suggests some good questions right there. You know, how can I scale up my free time in the long run? You know, how can I make good choices in the limited time I do have, so I feel most rejuvenated?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so that's the second takeaway that I wanna make sure that you got because I just had a light bulb moment there, to quote Oprah, where it is easy to fall into that trap where you're burnt out, or you feel overwhelmed, or you have a never-ending to-do list, and you start to say to yourself, "I have no free time. I have no time." One takeaway already is, I don't have enough free time, and simply that change acknowledges that there is some discretionary time, to use your words, that we can reclaim for ourselves, and that's a really... That feels doable, and so I'm glad we're starting there. Laura, based on your research, what do you think the most surprising thing that the person who is with us right now needs to know about time management?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, here's a number for you, okay? There are 168 hours in a week.
- MRMel Robbins
Does it- Like, total?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Total. [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, so that includes sleeping?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, people say 24/7, all the time.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Nobody ever multiplies it through.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- 9:17 – 21:00
The Simplest Time Management Tool
- MRMel Robbins
by Tuesday. And the first rule of productivity, I love this one, is give yourself a bedtime. Why is giving yourself a bedtime a rule for productivity?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, I know you are a big fan of bedtimes, correct?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You give yourself a bedtime?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, I do.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
I do, actually.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Yeah, and I think this is important for everyone else, because here's a paradox I have noticed with sleep, and from studying thousands of people's schedules. Many people are getting enough sleep from a quantitative perspective when you look over the course of the week. So I do these time diary projects. Sleep experts tell us, you know, we need- adults need, let's say, seven to eight hours of sleep a day, and I'd look at people's time logs, and they were generally getting somewhere between 49 and 56 hours of sleep over the course of the week, right? So that would put us in the seven to eight hours per day-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... category, and yet, people feel really tired. [chuckles] And so it's like, well, why is everyone claiming to be so tired-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... when they seem to be getting enough sleep from a quantitative perspective? So I'm puzzling this for a while, and then I look at how much sleep people are getting day to day. So there can be a vast difference in how much sleep people are getting day to day, and I'm not just talking Tuesday versus Saturday.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I'm talking even Tuesday versus Wednesday.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
In one of my time diary projects, I looked at how much sleep people were getting on Tuesday versus Wednesday, and about a quarter of people had a 90-minute gap between how much sleep they got on Tuesday-
- MRMel Robbins
Really?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... and how much they got on Wednesday. And you can see how this plays out. People are up late on one night.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Um, they have to be up at the crack of dawn-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... for something, and so it's been a short night, and then your body forces you to make it up.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So they are crashing on the couch while watching TV, or they're sitting with their four-year-old who's going to bed, and they are falling asleep on the floor there.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes, God, I remember those days.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Or they're hitting... Yeah, they're hitting-
- MRMel Robbins
[chuckles]
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... snooze four times in the morning. You know, that planned workout in the morning isn't happening. Uh, they're getting up, you know, two minutes before they need to be out the door. Um, so which night was typical? Well, they both happened again, but it's disorderly sleep. So most adults need to wake up at set times in the morning for work or family responsibilities, right? People have been setting alarm clocks since they're 12 years old. Since that is the case, in order to get the same amount of sleep every night, which just feels so much better, right? We don't wanna be on this drop tower carnival ride, where you're going up and down, and up and down. We need to figure out what time we need to go to bed in order to get the same amount of sleep every night.
- MRMel Robbins
Got it.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So this is just math, right? If you need eight hours of sleep, if you need to wake up at 6:00 AM, then you need to be asleep by 10:00 PM.... If you need seven and a half hours of sleep, and you need to wake up at 6:30 AM, you need to be in bed, uh, trying to go to sleep at 11:00 PM, right?
- 21:00 – 36:13
The Ideal Time You Should Do Your Weekly Planning
- MRMel Robbins
plan on Fridays?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
The rule to plan on Fridays is really two rules, and the first and most important is to plan.
- MRMel Robbins
Plan what? What am I planning, Laura?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Everybody needs a designated weekly planning time-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... where they look forward to the next week and ask both what needs to happen but also what they want to see happen. What is most important to you, professionally and personally, over the next week? When, roughly, can it happen? What logistical challenges need to be worked out for all this to take place?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Right? Everyone needs to do that.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna make sure I'm following this.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
So, so just so I know what I'm doing, 'cause I know the person listening is somebody who's like, "Okay, tell me what to do."
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Tell me what to do.
- MRMel Robbins
So I am planning the week, so I'm looking ahead at the next week, and I'm asking myself two questions: What needs to happen, and what do I want to have happen?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Absolutely. You can ask yourself, "Looking forward to the next week, what is most important to me?" And I recommend people look in three categories.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. What are they?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Career-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... relationships, and self. And so you can make yourself a three-category list-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... of your priorities for the upcoming week. Now, I know everyone listening to this is like, "Well, work to-dos, I know what those are over the next week. I've got my head around that idea," you know? And, and probably you roughly know what's important for you to do in, in your work over the next week.
- MRMel Robbins
Maybe.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Maybe. But people are like, "Relationships? Self? What is this?" But we are people with complex lives.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
We have a lot going on, so we also need to ask what is most important to us for relationships with family and friends. You know, what am I- what do I need to do over the next week? What do I want to do-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... over the next week in that category? And then self, what is most important or meaningful to have happen over the next week for your own personal, spiritual, mental, emotional, physical health? And making a three-category list as you're planning your week does something really good, which is that it is very hard to make a three-category list and leave one of the categories blank.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Our brains don't work that way. We're like, "I have to put something in each of these categories," right? "There's a category. I have to fill it in."
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And so that right there is going to nudge you to have a more balanced life, right? That you are gonna set a priority for your relationships. You will set a priority for your own personal self, and the sheer exercise of doing that over time can make life feel better.
- 36:13 – 47:04
How to Overcome Your 3pm Energy Crash
- MRMel Robbins
three is, move by 3:00 PM. What does that mean?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So physical activity-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... is a known energy booster, mood booster.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And one of my favorite studies ever, this wasn't one of mine, um, but somebody else did, they had people rate their energy in the course of the day on a one-to-10-point scale, and when people were down at a three, so they were really dragging, they had them go do a short burst of physical activity. So think running up and down the stairs in your office building for, for five minutes or so.
- MRMel Robbins
Does it have to be cardio?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
It-
- MRMel Robbins
Like, could we take a brisk walk?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, you could take a brisk walk.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, thank you.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I just-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I'm a big fan of a brisk walk.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, I'm anti-cardio.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You're anti-cardio. [chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
I'm just... Literally, for those of us that are anti-cardio-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, you're still moving your body-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... in some way.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
That will, will get you, get you a, a little bit of activity there. So anyway, these people were running up and down the stairs-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... for, for five minutes.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm not doing that, 'cause my face is gonna be like a tomato.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
We're gonna-
- MRMel Robbins
But okay
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... get you outside walking around-
- MRMel Robbins
Thank you
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... for five minutes.
- 47:04 – 51:19
How To Actually Stick to Productive Habits
- MRMel Robbins
I really do. Your fourth rule of productivity is, three times a week is a habit. What does that mean, three times a week is a habit?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So we think of our lives in days-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... but we actually live our lives in weeks.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you mean?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
We talked about 168 hours is the cycle of life as we actually live it. Tuesday and Saturday both occur just as often, both have the same number of hours, and yet, when you look at people's lives, they're often very different on, on those two days. But the reason we need to think of our lives in terms of weeks is it is- allows us to see that even if things don't happen daily-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... they can still be a regular part of our lives.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, this makes so much sense-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... because I am one of those people that thinks in absolutes. Gotta get the walk in every day.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Gotta make sure, like... And, and if I miss a day or miss two days or something happens, now it's no longer a thing.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
People say to me, "There are not enough hours in the day to get to everything I wanna get to."
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And I totally agree. There are not enough hours in the day to get to absolutely everything you want to get to, but we don't live our lives in days. We live our lives in weeks, and by looking at the whole of the week, we see just how much space there is. So there's many things that people say they would like to do in their lives, they'd like to have in their lives, they would like to do more of in their lives, and then they feel discouraged because they get to the end of the day, and it didn't happen.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You know? And, and but when I have people look at their time and look at their schedules, and thinking about these things that they want to do more of, oftentimes people have done them once or twice in the course of the week. It feels like they never do them, 'cause they're looking at life in terms of days.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And so most days, if you are doing something once or twice a week, well, you didn't do it, so you feel like a failure. Like, "Oh, I'd like to have family dinners, but we didn't do it tonight, Tuesday night, so I'm a failure." "I want to exercise more, and I got to the end of this busy Wed- Wednesday, and I didn't exercise. I am a failure." That is not a helpful conversation to be having with yourself. Here's the thing: If you're already doing something once or twice a week, it is pretty easy to get to three. You just have to add one more time, maybe. So if you want to have family dinners, but between your work schedule-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... the kids' activity schedules, you're not all sitting down 6:00 PM, Monday to Friday. Nobody is unveiling a pot roast, Norman Rockwell style, right?... but you look at your schedule and say, "Well, okay, well, actually, we're mostly having pizza together on Friday nights. You know, we're often having pancakes together on Sunday mornings." Now, all we need to do is find one more time.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So you look at the schedule for the upcoming week. You see, hey, most of us are gonna be there on Tuesday night after a certain time. Maybe if we hold dinner until 7:30 on Tuesday, we can all eat together. And now you are a family that eats together regularly. Three times a week is a habit. It happens three times a week. It can be part of your identity. And I think the reason I came to this rule is one of the occupational hazards of writing about time management- [laughing] ... is that people wanna tell you about their great daily habits, right? [chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. Yeah.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You know, they're like, "Ooh, I'll tell you about my great daily habit." I'm like, "Okay, let's hear about your great daily habit." And then people are telling me about this, and it turns out that they usually do this habit Monday through Friday. But that is not daily. That is five times a week, right? And you get- dig a little bit deeper, and, you know, they're not doing it on vacations. They're not doing it on holidays.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
They're not... So people are telling themselves they have this daily habit, 'cause it happens most of the time, Monday through Friday. But I think when we dig down, we see, you know, that's probably three or four times a week. So let's just start with the assumption that we're trying to get to three or four times a week. Three times a week is a habit. It's so much more doable, can be part of our identity.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that, and what I also love is that it builds with the plan on Fridays. 'Cause if you are taking Friday afternoon to look ahead, and one of the things that brings you joy is to have dinner with family or friends, and you can go, "Oh, okay, there are two nights where this works. Where can I find a third?" Now you're making it a habit, and so these things build on themselves. Very, very
- 51:19 – 54:09
Why You Don’t Follow Through on Goals (And the Fix)
- MRMel Robbins
cool. Rule number five of your productivity rules is create a backup slot. What, what is... It's like a rain date for your life? Like, what, what is that?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Rain dates are one of the most brilliant scheduling inventions [chuckles] ever. If people are invited to an outdoor event-
- MRMel Robbins
Right
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... say, in the summer, the existence of a rain date, the hosts are acknowledging right there that there is much that can go predictably wrong outside, right? [chuckles] It might rain. But by setting a rain date, you increase the chances that the event happens, even if not when originally planned. And I think there are a lot of things in life that we want to get to, but life happens, and so we can't do it at the time we originally planned, but that doesn't mean we don't get to do it. We can create a rain date for it, right? We can create a backup slot.
- MRMel Robbins
So can you give me examples of how this works?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, let's say-
- MRMel Robbins
Is this only with the big stuff, like-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, let's say you wanna exercise three times a week.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And you carve out time somehow, you know, Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday, you're gonna do it. Now, what happens? Tuesday, school nurse calls.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And you have to go pick up your kid, and the entire schedule for the day is off, right? You're like, "Well, I just can't exercise three times a week." But what if we set a backup slot for one of those times? We're gonna have time carved out in our schedules on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, and Sunday for a workout. Now, what-
- MRMel Robbins
You don't have to do it.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You don't have to do it.
- MRMel Robbins
It's just only three, okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Yeah, if the time is open, it's open. You do something else with it if you want, right? But when one of those slots is taken away from you-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... you still have time. We should get in the habit of creating more open space in general-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... in our schedules, because that way, when life happens, there is a place for things to go. So if you are, you know, have all these things that need to happen on Tuesday at work, and again, the school nurse calls, you have to go pick up your kid, where do all those things go? Well, this is, you know, people start-
- MRMel Robbins
Out the window.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Out the window! [laughing] Or people start borrowing time from the next week.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
But next week is gonna have crises of its own.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Whereas if you have open time on Friday, let's say, the things that didn't happen Tuesday can go Friday. You are still on track. You are not borrowing time from the next week. And when you have open space and things don't keep festering on the to-do list-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... because even when life happens, you can get to the things that happened and the things you want to do, you start feeling less overwhelmed, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Life starts feeling more calm. Like, when you say you're gonna do something in the week, you know probably it will happen-
- 54:09 – 1:00:04
The Fix to Make Your Life More Exciting
- MRMel Robbins
adventure, one little adventure. What, what, what does that even mean? How do you do that?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So as adults, a lot of our life starts to feel pretty routine. You get up in the morning, get everyone off to school and work, collect everyone at the end of the day, go through the, you know, cycle of dinner, baths, or homework, bed, wake up in the morning, do it all over again, right? And-
- MRMel Robbins
And you forgot laundry-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Well, we're, we're-
- MRMel Robbins
... and doomscrolling, and dogs
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... we're gonna put those in, too.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughing] Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
But, but, you know, [chuckles] days aren't really distinguishable from another, and if, if m- too much of this stacks up... There's nothing wrong with routines. I mean, routines make good choices automatic, so I don't wanna say that there's a problem with routines. But when too much of this sameness stacks up, whole years can disappear into these memory sinkholes. You have no idea where the time went. But here's the thing. We don't say, "Where did the time go?"-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... when we actually remember where the time went.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, hold on. You don't say, "Where did all the time go?" when you remember where the time went.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And the reason we remember our time is because we have created memories-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... in our time. What creates memories? Doing things that are novel or intense.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
All right? So this led me to this rule: One big adventure, one little adventure each week.... So each week, we are gonna aim to do two things that are a little out of the ordinary.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, and so this would go into your Friday planning session.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Friday planning. We're gonna say, "Looking forward to the next week, we're gonna do three times a week as a habit. Where can I do things three times a week? But also, where can I build in one big adventure, one little adventure?"
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Now, before anyone complains, a big adventure doesn't mean you have to fly off to Italy, though if you do, great. I mean, I'm, I'm here for it. That's wonderful. But I'm just talking about a couple hours, maybe half a weekend day is a big adventure. A little adventure-
- MRMel Robbins
You can find that every week, a half a weekend day?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
We'll get to that. [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, Laura.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
[laughing] And a, a little adventure could be even less. It could be less than an hour.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So doable on a lunch break maybe, a weekday evening, just as long as it is something out of the ordinary.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And this is a cadence that is enough to make the week feel different. You know, this is the week that we went to the beach and went on that Ferris wheel.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
This is the week where we tried that new gelato place. This is the week where I went to visit my friend in the next town over, and we went to that used bookstore. This is the week where the new colleague and I walked around the block at lunch together.
- 1:00:04 – 1:07:04
Making Time for Yourself When You Are Busy
- MRMel Robbins
each other. Rule number seven, take one night for you. What, what is the impact of carving out a night for you going to do?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I have to say, this is the rule that I got the most pushback from, uh, with busy people, because what I want people to do is to take a couple hours a week, could be a weekday evening, but the equivalent of a couple hours a week, to do something that is not work, that is not caring for family members, and that is intrinsically enjoyable for you. So we are talking some sort of hobby, more or less, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I sing in a choir. Other people might play musical instruments or, you know, play pickleball or anything like that. You can choose whatever you want that is intrinsically enjoyable to you. But I would really like people to choose something that gets them out of the house at a certain time every week, and that involves a commitment to other people.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. Why?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Because that makes your fun rise up the hierarchy in your schedule. So when I teach this rule to people, they're like, "Yes, I need more me time. I'm gonna take more bubble baths." I'm like: "Okay, let's see how that, how that plays out," right? [chuckles] Because, you know, you decide, "I'm gonna take a bubble bath at..." Even if you give it a specific time, you say, "I'm gonna take Wednesday night at 7:00 PM, I'm gonna have a bubble bath," what happens when work is running late on Wednesday night?
- MRMel Robbins
I'm doing work.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You're doing work. What happens when your kid wants you to drive them to the mall at 7:00 PM on Wednesday?
- MRMel Robbins
I'm driving them to the mall.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
You're driving them to the mall. Things that can happen-... whenever tend to happen never, right? Your bathtub isn't going anywhere, so you can always push it forward. Whereas, if you decide that you're going to play in a string quartet, and they meet at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, and you don't show up, they're a string trio. We have a problem here, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So because of that, you will do a lot to make sure that you can be there at 7:00 PM on Wednesday. You have worked out with a colleague that when work is running late on Wednesday, you will have covered for your colleague on Tuesday, so he covers for you on Wednesday.
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Right? The kid who wants you to drive them to the mall knows not to ask at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, 'cause the answer is going to be no, right? Because it is a commitment to other people, you will do it, and that way, you are building this act of self-care into your life.
- MRMel Robbins
Um, what is the excuse that people give you when they push back and are like, "A night for myself? I couldn't possibly do that. How's the house gonna run? Who's gonna take care of my..." Like, what do people say?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Everything will fall apart without me. That is what people are basically saying, and this comes from different perspectives. Sometimes it's arrogance in disguise, right? That nothing can function without me. Just, "You can't hire good people these days," right? Like, "Nobody can do anything what I do at home." But it also can be fear, right? Like, "Well, if I'm not necessary for absolutely everything at work, like, well, what's the point of me? They'll fire me tomorrow," right?
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Or, "If I acknowledge that people in my household can function without me, maybe they do things a little bit differently, but maybe they can function without me," then it feels like, "Well, what's the point of me?" But everyone has intrinsic worth, d- apart from whatever you do, and, I mean, the truth is, Earth is not gonna crash into the sun if you take two hours to go play in your pickleball league, right? For the vast majority of us, most things will not change if you take an hour or two away to go do something for yourself. Now, I'm not promising that all the dishes will get done in exactly the way that you would've done them, but it won't be a crisis. The world will keep spinning.
- MRMel Robbins
And what will the person who's resistant to going back to a religious service, uh, you know, like on a Wednesday night, or volunteering for hospice on a Thursday, what will happen in your life if you start to do this rule where you take one night for yourself?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
This will allow you to see that you are not just a person-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... who works and has caregiving responsibilities. You are a person who does awesome things in the world. Uh, and this can totally transform people's lives. We've talked about it, how it doesn't take much time-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... to make life feel entirely different. One story I remember for this, um, a, a woman who learned this rule, she was, you know, very busy, full-time job, spouse who works, young kids. She decided to start playing tennis on Tuesday night. Her husband had been encouraging her to find something, she... You know, a hobby to, to be less stressed and all that. First time she comes home, her husband's like: "You're glowing. You're glowing." All it took is a little more than an hour on a Tuesday night, and it becomes like this tent post [chuckles] in the week. You build your life around that r- that requirement that you be there, because it changes how you view yourself.
- MRMel Robbins
I think a lot of us have had an experience where you start to feel like, "I don't even know who I am anymore," and everything you're teaching us, to me, feels like a way to insert your spirit back into the pockets of time that you can find when you get intentional. Because you're not gonna be able to just take all 24 hours, but you can find 15 minutes, an hour here or there, over the course of a week, in order to start to feel like yourself again.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Absolutely, and particularly when people are in phases of life, like you have lots of young kids-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... or you are caring for a family member who has a complicated medical condition. I get it's not gonna be easy-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-mm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... to take this time. But if you get support from the other people in your life, I'm guessing you can make it happen. You can trade off with your spouse. Like, you offer to take Tuesday night, your spouse takes Wednesday night. Each of you gets one night for you. If that is not in the cards, maybe you trade off with a friend or family member, right? Like, your neighbor takes the kids on Tuesday, and you take the kids on Wednesday-
- 1:07:04 – 1:11:14
The #1 Tool to Stop Procrastinating
- MRMel Robbins
tell me about rule number eight, which is give things less time.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So many of us start to feel like we are carrying a huge mental load, right? There's all the things we need to remember to do.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And it's- you know, it adds up. The more complicated a life you have, the more things there are, and you'll be sitting there, you know, trying to focus on some deep work project. You're like, "Did I send in the permission slip? Did I, you know, answer that, uh, invitation to the meeting on Friday? Did I book the tickets for that trip next week?" You know, all these things are in your brain.
- MRMel Robbins
... You just made me remember that I-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
All the things you didn't do today that you're supposed to? [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I'm just like, "Oh, my God, two weeks ago I donated to the local library. I still have not filled out the form. Now I gotta write a note-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
- and tell Chris." Okay, like, I- so, yes!
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Yes, yes. We're, we're carrying this mental load, and, you know, there's been many interesting things written about who carries what proportion of the mental load, and I, I'm, I'm here for that, but this is not about that. This is about saying whatever proportion you are carrying, you can minimize the mental cost by batching these things.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you mean?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So instead of just doing it when you think of it... You're working on a project, you're like, "Oh, I need to send in that permission slip." Just quick write it down somewhere, and get back- right back to what you were doing. And then do all these little tasks at a certain low-energy time, right? When it's not your prime time, maybe 4:00 PM in the afternoon, take 30 minutes, plow through all of them, so you're protecting your mental energy for the things that matter, and you're still getting them done.
- MRMel Robbins
So do you, like, have, like, a little notebook with you, or a note card, or how do you manage those little things?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I keep what I call a Friday punch list.
- MRMel Robbins
You keep a Friday punch list?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
A Friday punch list. So a punch list, you know, if you have a... I don't know, anyone has a huge home renovation project, at the end, they have all these tiny little tasks that they-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
That's a punch list, okay?
- MRMel Robbins
Got it, okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
That the contractor has.
- MRMel Robbins
It's not something you wanna punch yourself in the face-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
No, you don't wanna punch
- MRMel Robbins
... because you don't wanna do this stuff?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Although you might, looking at it. [chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
To- no, it's a Friday punch list, and I put all these little tasks that aren't immediately time-sensitive, like, they didn't have to get done right that second, but they do need to get done at some point, you know, in the next week or so. And then low-energy time, Friday, you know, planning the week, but I take a 30 minutes to an hour and just try to plow through as many of these things as possible. And this does two things. I mean, one, it makes it take less time.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Because when you are filling out three permission forms at one point, as opposed to, you know, here and there and everywhere, and ordering four birthday party presents at the same point, you, you just achieve economies of scale. All this takes less time. But here's the thing, we often procrastinate other things we are doing, more difficult things we are doing, by getting these easy wins. Like, I'll be working on a project. It's, it's not coming. I really need to think about it, and I'm like, "Or I could just order this birthday present." [chuckles]
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
"It needs to happen at some point."
- 1:11:14 – 1:21:39
Why Hobbies Make You More Successful
- MRMel Robbins
the way that you think about yourself. Rule number nine, tell me about effortful before effortless.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So there are two different kinds of fun. Effortless fun is stuff that doesn't require you to plan ahead, you can do whenever, s- however much time you want, you don't have to coordinate with anyone.
- MRMel Robbins
Give me an example. What is that?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Scrolling around on Instagram. [laughing]
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, God, it's so true. Yes.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So Instagram-
- MRMel Robbins
I don't have to plan to scroll on my phone
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... Instagram doesn't care what you are wearing. You can do it for two minutes, you can do it for 20 minutes, you can do it for two hours. Whereas effortful fun requires a little bit more effort, right? So reading a book or calling a friend, doing a puzzle, doing a hobby.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And people always say, "Oh, I'd love to spend more time reading, or talking with friends, or doing a hobby, if only I had the time." And yet, you look at the screen time function on your phone, you may be spending three hours a day on your phone. People are like, "I don't- I... Where did that time come from?" Well, it came in little bits of time, and it came at very low energy-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... times, and so it was easy and effortless, and you did it.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
So I'm not saying don't scroll around on Instagram. We're both on Instagram. I'd love to have [chuckles] people there. Um, but challenge yourself to do just a little bit of effortful fun before the effortless. So if you're picking up your phone when you are standing in line in the grocery store, and you're not doing Mel's deep breathing, if you are picking up your phone, put the Kindle app on your phone and read an e-book-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... for three minutes, and then if you wanna stop and go on Instagram, great. Be my guest. But one of two things will happen, one of which is that you will keep reading the book-
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah
- LVLaura Vanderkam
... because it was a good book, and you wanna see what happens. I mean, effortful fun is fun. It just takes a little bit of effort to do.
- MRMel Robbins
To get going, yeah.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
Or, you know, you will go do the effortless fun, but then at least you got to do both.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, I love that. Out of all of the rules that you talked about today, what do people resist doing the most, and why?
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I really do think it is the rule about taking one night for you.
- MRMel Robbins
It does seem impossible.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
It does seem impossible.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, I'm just gonna say right now, like, one night a week? I don't know that I could find that. I'd really-
- LVLaura Vanderkam
I was telling myself that story, and then a couple years ago, um, I, I used to sing in lots of choirs when I was younger, and I decided I would like to get back into it.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And I was tracking my time-... um, and I looked at my schedule, and I saw that a great many of my evenings were very nebulous. I mean, it was half-heartedly hanging out with the kids, but also kind of wishing they would sometimes leave me alone so I could do other things.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- LVLaura Vanderkam
And, yeah, nothing much was happening. I was like, "Okay, could I do that with the kids six nights a week, and one night I do something different?"
Episode duration: 1:21:39
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode ccY2DaPEB9s
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome