The Mel Robbins PodcastThe #1 Relationship Researchers in the World: 50 Years of Marriage & Love Advice in One Conversation
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 12,868 words- 0:00 – 4:20
Introduction
- MRMel Robbins
Today, you and I are here with Dr. Julie and Dr. John Gottman. They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work.
- JGDr. John Gottman
We had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes. We could predict with almost 90% accuracy whether they would divorce or stay together, and if they stayed together, how happily married or unhappily married they would be.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. They're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships, and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Secondly is contempt, and contempt is the worst one we have. You're coming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner. The third horseman is defensiveness, and then there's-
- MRMel Robbins
How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're losing interest in them?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Oh.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I love you so, so, so much.
- JGDr. John Gottman
That's nice to hear.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
But...
- JGDr. John Gottman
Oh, there's a but.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
But... [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
I'm sorry I'm laughing, but I... You two are adorable, and we have all been in a relationship like that. Within three minutes flat, you can predict whether a couple is gonna break up or still be together in six years. What are you looking for?
- JGDr. John Gottman
If I was gonna boil it down to one thing-
- MRMel Robbins
Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited about this episode. I know what's coming. It is extraordinary. You're gonna love this. But one thing that my team just showed me that I don't love so much, 51% of you who watch here on YouTube, you're not subscribers. So here's my request. Our goal as a team is to get that number to 40%. If the subscribe button is lit up, would you please just hit subscribe? It's free. It's the best way to say, "Hey, thanks everybody. Thanks for putting out free content here on YouTube for me. Thanks for all the world-renowned experts that are helping me improve my life." I appreciate you doing that, and that way you also won't miss a thing. Thank you for doing that for us. We love you, and you're gonna love this episode, so let's jump into it. Please help me welcome the extraordinary Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman to The Mel Robbins Podcast.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Oh, we're so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh, honor's mine. Honor is mine. You know, I would love to have you start by just thinking about the thousands of couples that you have researched, and this extraordinary body of work that spans 50 years. And speak to the person who is listening right now and share what might change about their relationships if they really take to heart all of this research and wisdom, and they apply it as soon as they're done listening.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm-hmm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Beautiful. You know, I think, uh, two things I would say that really change. One is that hopefully conflict, which is absolutely normal in every relationship, becomes more calm, more gentle, and more constructive, also more compassionate. Because the real theme of conflict is to understand your partner better. It's not to tear your partner down. It's to really get inside their world and understand where they're coming from. So hopefully that might take place after listening to your beautiful show. And I would say secondly, maybe they do more to express gratitude.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Maybe they ask more questions of their partner to really understand where their partner is at here and now internally. They may have known them when they were first dating, knew that world, but people evolve and change, so who are they now? Asking questions draws that out.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would, I would say that, um, in all the 54 years of, of studying couples, and my friend Bob
- 4:20 – 9:47
How to Stop Fighting With Your Partner
- JGDr. John Gottman
Levinson and I started this research way back then, and neither of us had a clue about what makes relationships work. We went from one disaster-
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
... to another. And if I was gonna boil it down to one thing, I have this invention that I keep in my back pocket, and it's a little notebook, and I keep it there all the time. And if Julie utters the four terrifying words-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
... "We need to talk," I get out my notebook very slowly so I can delay my reaction. I get out my pen very slowly, and I open the book up very slowly, and, and then I say, "Okay, baby, talk to me. What's on your mind? What's on your heart?" And I write down what she's saying, and the more defensive I feel, the more I take notes and slow her down. Because I think the one thing we've discovered is that the masters of relationships, the ones who are happy and stay together, really seem to have a model that when your partner's upset about anything, the world stops and you listen. And this is my way of listening, taking notes, and doing it very slowly so I can calm down-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
... and not react quickly by saying something I'd, I'll regret [laughs] later on.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna just pause.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
It's okay.
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
It's okay, honey.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what's adorable about you two, and if you're listening, I'm just gonna describe it. If you're watching this episode, you will have already seen it, is that you both keep turning toward one another- And smiling, and you have this very warm, loving gaze at one another-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm
- MRMel Robbins
... as the other is talking.
- JGDr. John Gottman
How can you not love this?
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
This is beautiful.
- MRMel Robbins
And you also are, like, holding hands, and there's a, there's a-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... physical touch connection-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Oh, yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... which is extremely noticeable because you don't see it all that often-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm
- MRMel Robbins
... in couples.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I wanted to just unpack the genius of your response, Dr. Gottman, to those four terrifying words-
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... "We need to talk."
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs] Right.
- MRMel Robbins
Um, which I'm also realizing sometimes I don't give Chris the grace of preparing him for the fact that I'm about to blast at him like a volcano.
- 9:47 – 15:22
Relationship Advice Backed by 50 Years of Research
- MRMel Robbins
Um, you study love in a lab. What does that mean? For the person that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships, what do you do?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah. So, um, Julie and I, uh, after we first met, you know, we designed this apartment where 130 newlywed couples, just a couple of months after the wedding, would spend 24 hours, cameras rolling, no instructions. You know, they have an opportunity to eat together, clean up together, you know, read the newspaper, watch TV, whatever they wanna do, and the cameras are just rolling. And while they're walking around, we're measuring their heart rate. They're measuring all kinds of physiological measures. Every time they urinate, we take a blood, we take a sample and measure stress hormones, and then we take blood from them the next day and, and look at the immune system and stress hormones in the immune system. So we're just kind of watching couples, and it turns out that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab.
- MRMel Robbins
Can I ask something?
- JGDr. John Gottman
So the prediction is really 94% accurate-
- MRMel Robbins
Right [laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
... at predicting the future.
- MRMel Robbins
So you can predict-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
But let me-
- MRMel Robbins
... with 94% accuracy who-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's right
- MRMel Robbins
... was gonna make it and who wasn't?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's right.
- MRMel Robbins
This is like the original-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Six years down the road
- MRMel Robbins
... reality TV. It sounds like you guys-
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... invented the format.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's right. Let me add also that this brilliant man over here created a fantastic system for codifying emotions. That means looking at the face, looking at the movements of the body, looking at the words, the tone of voice, the eye gaze, and assessing from that what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak. Then what's the other individual gonna respond with? What kind of feeling is that? So we call that SPAF, specific affect, which means emotion, specific affect coding. And that in itself tells us a huge amount about the dynamic.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Who's being belligerent? Who's being domineering? Who is being subordinate? Who's being kind? Who's trying to make a repair if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings hurt?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Or using humor as a way to wind things down. Humor turns out to be very important.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Right. Why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Because we fight all the time. [laughs]
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
We are human beings. You know, one of the things, Mel, that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is, how come people are mean to each other?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Why is that? What's evil? What does that even mean? What I've really understood from lots of archeological reading and so on, is that people have aggression. They've also got altruism. They can be very, very kind. But all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us. So what happens with it? Typically, it goes to the person that's closest to us-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... because that person, we assume, is not gonna abandon us, is not gonna run away. They're gonna be there to listen to us.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Uh-huh.
- 15:22 – 23:33
What Healthy Couples Do Differently During Arguments
- MRMel Robbins
also interesting research that you have around how the first three minutes of a fight predict everything.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's hear-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... about that.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Uh, you know, Bob and I found that, um, that if we, we had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes, we could predict with almost 90% accuracy whether they would divorce or stay together, and if they stayed together, how happily married or unhappily married they would be. But then somebody in my lab, Sibyl Carrero, said, "What if we lop off the data from the last three minutes and we only have 12 minutes? What's the prediction like with only 12 minutes of data?" And it was just fine. And she said, "Well, let's lop off another three minutes," and it was just fine. She got down to the first three minutes, and we were still predicting the future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes. Because couples who really are gonna wind up divorced or together unhappily start off the conversation really differently from couples who are, we call the masters of relationship. That beginning is so important.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, uh, now I'm like, okay, well, what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... versus-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Hey, I have an idea
- MRMel Robbins
... the beginning that doesn't?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I have an idea. Let's role play it.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's do it.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Let's role play it.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Sure.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
All right, so this is predictive of going down.
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah, well, so I, I, I wanted to talk to you about this. I really think that you're, you're really ruining this marriage. And-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
What?
- JGDr. John Gottman
... it's, it's, it's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive compulsive with just-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Wait a minute. Wait a minute
- JGDr. John Gottman
... looking at ev- d- let me finish.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I'm not gonna let you finish.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Uh, yeah, I-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
You're such a slob that, you know, I can't even walk through the living room.
- JGDr. John Gottman
I am, I am charmingly, uh, sloppy.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Sloppy, yes.
- JGDr. John Gottman
But you are-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Pretty much
- JGDr. John Gottman
... really a, a nut. I mean, you're... You need therapy.
- 23:33 – 28:28
The Right Way to Communicate During a Fight
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
But what, can you explain what just happened in that conflict?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah, yeah. Easy. So it started, it started in a perfect way, which was John bringing up that he's feeling bad-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... about an interaction of ours. But notice he's not saying, "You're a schmuck, and that's why I feel bad." He's saying, "I feel like I can't do anything right." So is you in there? No. He is having that feeling, which pulls on my heart, Mel.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
He's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like, and that feeling I'm translating into, "Oh, God, he's feeling hopeless." He's feeling despair. I don't want him to feel that way. But here's the kicker, I wanna understand what's making him feel that way. So instead of just responding with, you know, just a comment, I ask a question-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... to try to understand. Tell me more. Tell me more. Because, you know, it's sort of like if something pretty smelly is bubbling up from the earth, I wanna know what's under the earth, you know, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him. So I ask him a question, and that gives me information about, oh, that's what's happening inside. That's something that we can change. It leads to a solution.
- MRMel Robbins
I love this example, and I'm gonna tell you why. I personally know that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight, and when I'm volcanoing and he's turtling, when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something, it would literally be, "Nothing's ever good enough for you."
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I think that's a very common, like, way that people then bark at each other.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And it's very different to say, "Well, nothing's good enough for you. I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you."
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
Versus what you just taught us-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... which is instead of accusing noth- it's you-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... I feel that no matter what I do, it's never enough. And you're right, as soon as Chris started saying that to me, I immediately feel like a monster, and then I wanna know, okay, well, what, what, what, what exactly? I'm sorry.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
And I can see why this works.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Sure. Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Right.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
You know-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Right
- 28:28 – 36:50
How to Build Emotional Intimacy With Your Partner
- MRMel Robbins
When somebody says to you, "Oh, we never fight."
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
What do you think?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Uh, I think they're probably conflict avoiders, and I think, oh, dear. [laughs] We've gotta help this couple surface, unearth the differences, the things that are irritating, annoying, because if you hold them inside and you don't bring them up, after a while they accumulate, and then you may end up with an eruption, right?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Which doesn't help anybody.
- JGDr. John Gottman
One thing that can happen, uh, we saw in this study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children, and they spent less than 10% of an evening in the same room. They talked to each other an average of 35 minutes a week, and mostly what they talked about was errands, who's gonna do what when. So they s- they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship. They ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure. They were just... Their lives had devolved into this infinite to-do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had, so they lived life in parallel. You know, he, he goes to work. She goes to work. They come home. They, you know, they're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying, "God, you know, we used to have so much fun, and we don't have any anymore. We're just kind of becoming drudges." They don't say that to one another.
- MRMel Robbins
They stay roommates.
- JGDr. John Gottman
They stay roommates. They avoid conflict. They avoid saying how lonely they are-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm
- JGDr. John Gottman
... how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship.
- MRMel Robbins
If the person listening is thinking, "Well, that's me- Because I can think of periods of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... all in their, you know, 20s.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
But when they were little, that was us.
- JGDr. John Gottman
That was you. Yeah, um-
- MRMel Robbins
We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store, and that no matter what I do, it's never enough.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah, you have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship. Build in times that you can count on having your partner's ears. And, you know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do, and for 27 years we've gone to the same bed and breakfast, and took, took our kayak, and we spend two weeks asking each other three questions: What sucked about last year? What did you hate about last year? What did you love about last year? And what do you want next year to be like? So we, we have that ritual where we know we can connect, and it's romantic, and it's fun, and we kayak and, you know, we hike and, you know, it's always magic.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Let me point out, though, what John is talking about, especially for really busy two-career couples-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... are those rituals of connection, but they don't have to be great big, uh, you know, broadcasts. They can be something so simple like how do you say good morning first thing when you wake up? How do you say good night-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... and you look forward to that? What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in? How about a date night? You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it?
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, ah, they're right beside me. They're right there, even though they're in a different office.
- MRMel Robbins
I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment, as the research suggests, which I think most couples are both probably working 'cause of the reality of how expensive life is-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's right
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... and coming and going, and that only 35 minutes a week in the... I, I mean, that's just sad.
- 36:50 – 40:45
The 4 Toxic Relationship Habits That Predict Divorce
- MRMel Robbins
in your relationship. What are they?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Okay. So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Like, "You're so selfish," "You're so lazy," "You're so inconsiderate, thoughtless," whatever. So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner, that's criticism.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Secondly is contempt, and contempt is the worst one we have. Contempt is like criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner, and you're sneering a little bit. You've got a look of disgust maybe on your face. There's scorn, there's mockery. Sometimes sarcasm is contempt. And contempt is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying, and I'll fine-tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict for 15 minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they're gonna have in the next four years.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Because it is sulfuric acid for the immune system.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah. It's a big deal. The third horseman is defensiveness. We all love defensiveness.
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counter-attack, as we described, or whining.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. John Gottman
He is a victim.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
"Oh, I did too clean the kitchen. What do you mean?" Okay. I love whining. It's, it's great. And then there's stonewalling, and stonewalling is completely shutting down, but it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase. It's shutting down completely-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... for minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time. And what brilliant John here and his colleague Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight. Their heart rates were often over 100 beats a minute as they sat there-
- JGDr. John Gottman
And they started stonewalling
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... and they started stonewalling-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... in order to go inside and-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... try and soothe themselves because being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful. Makes you sick.
- JGDr. John Gottman
So that turtle thing that Chris does, right?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yes. Yeah.
- JGDr. John Gottman
You know? And he's just trying to calm himself down, but to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Correct.
- JGDr. John Gottman
You know? And he's, he's-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
And then I'm getting-
- JGDr. John Gottman
... tuned out. You can't reach him
- 40:45 – 49:13
What Emotional Flooding Is and Why It Takes Over
- MRMel Robbins
love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's listening right now, what do you mean by flooding? So if somebody's never heard this term-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... um, and they're not quite... And, you know, I think there's a... It's kinda obvious if you're, like, the stonewaller or y- or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle or you're a volcano like me. But can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding, and what are the, what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Sure. Sure. So first of all, there is no correlation between personality type and flooding. Anybody can get flooded.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Anybody, first of all.
- MRMel Robbins
And what does that mean when you use that term flooded?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Okay. So what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber-toothed tiger.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like one. And because it feels like an attack, right, and it's a dangerous attack, it's threatening, it sets off this fight or flight response. And so men who experience this and get flooded are gonna look like this. They give themselves permission-
- JGDr. John Gottman
To tune out
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... to look away, to look away. But a female doesn't typically, and here's why. Because you know, as women- From, you know, this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right? To be sensitive to others' feelings. So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this.
- MRMel Robbins
And you're just kind of staring...
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Nobody's home.
- MRMel Robbins
No one's home.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Nobody's home.
- MRMel Robbins
Blank face.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's right. You may be meeting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home. You've taken yourself out.
- MRMel Robbins
I just realized my daughter does that-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Ah
- MRMel Robbins
... when-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Hey
- MRMel Robbins
... I get, like, scary.
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
It- that she-
- JGDr. John Gottman
A deer in the headlights.
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- 49:13 – 58:53
How to Deal With A Partner Belittling You In A Fight
- JGDr. John Gottman
this air of superiority. You know, I'm better than you.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm-hmm
- MRMel Robbins
... and how it is different than criticism?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- JGDr. John Gottman
You can't do anything right, can you?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
What are you talking about? [laughs] God.
- JGDr. John Gottman
I mean, you know, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money. You know, you spend too much money on clothes.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So what?
- JGDr. John Gottman
You know, I, you know-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So what?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Well, we're, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house, and you're ruining the whole thing. You're just a spender.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I'm ruining the whole thing?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right. Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
How dare you?
- JGDr. John Gottman
I mean-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
You just went out and bought a Porsche, for God's sakes, and I'm ruining everything?
- JGDr. John Gottman
I need that for my work.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
I need that. I-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I need-
- JGDr. John Gottman
I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... to take it back. I need to take it back. Okay. So that's one example.
- MRMel Robbins
So it's judgment.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
But from a place of superiority.
- MRMel Robbins
What about the eye-rolling-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Oh, I-
- MRMel Robbins
... and the like-
- JGDr. John Gottman
I have another exam-
- MRMel Robbins
Like that's a-
- 58:53 – 1:03:51
What To Do If Your Partner Always Gets Defensive During Fights
- MRMel Robbins
you. The third horseman, uh, of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
What is defensiveness, and why is it so automatic, you know? Like, it's just, it, you, like you, you, you just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Hmm. You know that lawyer that I talked about?
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGDr. John Gottman
He was amazing at not getting defensive when his wife was criticizing him, and he, he really was saying, "She's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to help her-
- MRMel Robbins
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
... I have to help her get to it, you know? Uh, but I'm sure she's, she's got something she really wants to tell me that's important." And he had that attitude. Very respectful, you know? And I think that's the attitude you gotta take. Instead of saying, "I'm innocent, you know, I have, I have no responsibility in this. I'm, I'm pretty much perfect. If there's anybody defective, it's you," that's a really bad attitude [laughs] 'cause you're not gonna listen if you have that attitude.
- MRMel Robbins
I would love to hear you guys role play, and if you could do an example where one of you wishes the other one would either lose weight or take a little better care of themselves or, you know, get a trainer or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
You know what I'm saying? That, you know, and then the other one s- 'cause I think this is something that is-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Ooh, boy
- MRMel Robbins
... yes.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's a hot issue.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, it's a hot issue.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah. Okay.
- JGDr. John Gottman
So let's say, let's say you criticize me, you know-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah
- JGDr. John Gottman
... for, you know, having a tummy and-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. John Gottman
... but you're really worried about my health and weight.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Such a sweet tummy.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right. Yeah.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Okay. Uh, let's see. [clears throat] John, uh, I need to talk to you about something.
- JGDr. John Gottman
All right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
You know, I know that you love sitting and reading your books.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Especially your mathematic books-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah. Right
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... which I cannot understand one page of.
- 1:03:51 – 1:05:59
How to Talk About Losing Physical Attraction
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I have something I wanna talk to you about that is super sensitive.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Uh-oh.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
I know.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Let me get my notebook.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
You better get your notebook.
- JGDr. John Gottman
All right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
And let me preface it, let me preface it by saying I adore you. I love you so, so, so much.
- JGDr. John Gottman
That's nice to hear.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
But-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Oh, there's a but.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yep, here comes the sensitive part. I don't know exactly what's happening, but as you've been gaining weight-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Hmm
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... becoming more of a sphere instead of a triangle-
- JGDr. John Gottman
[laughs]
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... I don't know, my libido is going down. My sexual interest is declining.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Oh, that sucks.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Well, it does because I love you, and I really, really want to express that physically to you. But at the same time, I really, really loved it when you were working out, and s- I could feel the muscles in your back, in your shoulders, your arms. It, it felt really wonderful.
- JGDr. John Gottman
So I wrote down, "Lose weight and get more sex."
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
That's a possibility.
- JGDr. John Gottman
All right. Okay.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
What do you think?
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Would you like that?
- JGDr. John Gottman
I'd like-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Would you like-
- JGDr. John Gottman
I'd like more s-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... to get more sex?
- JGDr. John Gottman
I'd like, I'd like more sex.
- 1:05:59 – 1:15:10
Why Stonewalling Is So Damaging in Relationships
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
[laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
... is stonewalling.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Okay.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Well, you know, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it, and we brought men back in and said, "What was going through your mind right there?" And so we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through, and they really were saying, "This is hopeless. I just gotta, I gotta endure this. I gotta get through this. And, you know, don't say anything 'cause whatever you say, you're gonna make it worse. And, you know, I'm just gonna go get a, get a beer and watch the game, you know, and not think about this. Let me out of here." That's what they were thinking, you know? And it was sad, you know? It was really like, "I'm overwhelmed, you know? I'm in a war zone." [laughs]
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- JGDr. John Gottman
You know? And there, there aren't any shelters.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Can you give us a example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Uh-
- MRMel Robbins
When-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah
- MRMel Robbins
... one-
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Sure
- MRMel Robbins
... when, you know, the man g- or typically the guy, but often it can be the, the, the woman.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Can be.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah. 15% of the time it was a woman stonewalling.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, let's, let's do you stonewalling.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Okay.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay?
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Uh, so I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills. I mean, the bills have gotta be paid. Why aren't you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
This is, this is not a big deal. I, you know, just stop-
- MRMel Robbins
It is
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
... I don't wanna talk about this.
- 1:15:10 – 1:24:45
The #1 Predictor of A Healthy Relationship
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Yeah.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's talk about turning toward each other.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Oh, so important. So important.
- JGDr. John Gottman
So that's something that, that one of my graduate students, Janice Driver, really noticed in the apartment lab. There'd be these small moments when one person would try to get their partner's attention or interest or have a conversation or show them something they were reading, and the cameras turned to the other person. And we recorded the response, and they either responded, you know, or, you know, turned toward, we called it, or they didn't respond at all, turning away, or they responded irritably, turning against. And what Jannie discovered was that when you look back at the couples who divorced six years earlier, their average percent of turning toward their partner's bids for connection was 33%, and the couples who are still married, look six years earlier, their average is 86% -
- MRMel Robbins
Wow
- JGDr. John Gottman
... rather than 33%.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- JGDr. John Gottman
So these small moments are really important. Plus, she also discovered the secret to having a sense of humor during conflict was having a lot of history of turning toward-
- MRMel Robbins
Oh
- JGDr. John Gottman
... building an emotional bank account of connecting.
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Then people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna make sure that as you were listening to John say that, that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those micro-moments, and obviously, what we wanna learn to do-
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right
- MRMel Robbins
... is turn toward one another.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
But the thing that a lot of people do is you either turn away or you turn against.
- JGDr. John Gottman
Right.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Right.
- MRMel Robbins
And I think it's a very useful tool to ask yourself, "Am I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day? Am I turning away from them?"
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
So what turning away means, a lot of people misinterpret that. They think it means, oh, you turn your body away.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
No, it doesn't at all. It means you completely ignore what they've said.
- MRMel Robbins
Oh.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
You ignore it. So let's say I'm reading a book, and John calls to me from the kitchen, "Julie." I ignore him. I keep reading the book. He says again, "Honey, do you know where the big fork is?" I ignore him as if he never said anything. That's turning away.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- JGDr. Julie Schwartz Gottman
Turning against would be, "Would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read."
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
Episode duration: 1:24:48
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