The Best Relationship Advice That Everyone Needs to Hear (From the World’s #1 Love Researchers)

Mel Robbins 0:00 Today, you and I are here with Dr. Julie and Dr. John Gottman. They are the world's leading experts on love and what it takes to make a relationship work.

Dr. John Gottman 0:09 We had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes. We could predict with almost 90% accuracy whether they would divorce or stay together, and if they stayed together, how happily married or unhappily married they would be.

Mel Robbins 0:24 Wow. They're teaching you and me everything we need to know about the four things that'll blow up your relationships, and what you can do to break these patterns of conflict.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 0:34 So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. Secondly is contempt, and contempt is the worst one we have. You're coming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner. The third horseman is defensiveness, and then there's-

Mel Robbins 1:02 How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about them, it's that you're losing interest in them?

Dr. John Gottman 1:07 Oh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08 I love you so, so, so much.

Dr. John Gottman 1:11 That's nice to hear.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:13 But...

Dr. John Gottman 1:13 Oh, there's a but.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14 But... [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:15 I'm sorry I'm laughing, but I... You two are adorable, and we have all been in a relationship like that. Within three minutes flat, you can predict whether a couple is gonna break up or still be together in six years. What are you looking for?

Dr. John Gottman 1:28 If I was gonna boil it down to one thing-

Mel Robbins 1:32 Hey, it's Mel. I am so excited about this episode. I know what's coming. It is extraordinary. You're gonna love this. But one thing that my team just showed me that I don't love so much, 51% of you who watch here on YouTube, you're not subscribers. So here's my request. Our goal as a team is to get that number to 40%. If the subscribe button is lit up, would you please just hit subscribe? It's free. It's the best way to say, "Hey, thanks everybody. Thanks for putting out free content here on YouTube for me. Thanks for all the world-renowned experts that are helping me improve my life." I appreciate you doing that, and that way you also won't miss a thing. Thank you for doing that for us. We love you, and you're gonna love this episode, so let's jump into it. Please help me welcome the extraordinary Dr. John and Dr. Julie Gottman to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 2:19 Oh, we're so happy to be here, Mel. Thank you.

Mel Robbins 2:22 Oh, honor's mine. Honor is mine. You know, I would love to have you start by just thinking about the thousands of couples that you have researched, and this extraordinary body of work that spans 50 years. And speak to the person who is listening right now and share what might change about their relationships if they really take to heart all of this research and wisdom, and they apply it as soon as they're done listening.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 2:56 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 2:56 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 2:57 Beautiful. You know, I think, uh, two things I would say that really change. One is that hopefully conflict, which is absolutely normal in every relationship, becomes more calm, more gentle, and more constructive, also more compassionate. Because the real theme of conflict is to understand your partner better. It's not to tear your partner down. It's to really get inside their world and understand where they're coming from. So hopefully that might take place after listening to your beautiful show. And I would say secondly, maybe they do more to express gratitude.

Mel Robbins 3:48 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 3:49 Maybe they ask more questions of their partner to really understand where their partner is at here and now internally. They may have known them when they were first dating, knew that world, but people evolve and change, so who are they now? Asking questions draws that out.

Dr. John Gottman 4:09 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would, I would say that, um, in all the 54 years of, of studying couples, and my friend Bob

Dr. John Gottman 4:20 Levinson and I started this research way back then, and neither of us had a clue about what makes relationships work. We went from one disaster-

Mel Robbins 4:29 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 4:30 ... to another. And if I was gonna boil it down to one thing, I have this invention that I keep in my back pocket, and it's a little notebook, and I keep it there all the time. And if Julie utters the four terrifying words-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 4:48 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 4:49 ... "We need to talk," I get out my notebook very slowly so I can delay my reaction. I get out my pen very slowly, and I open the book up very slowly, and, and then I say, "Okay, baby, talk to me. What's on your mind? What's on your heart?" And I write down what she's saying, and the more defensive I feel, the more I take notes and slow her down. Because I think the one thing we've discovered is that the masters of relationships, the ones who are happy and stay together, really seem to have a model that when your partner's upset about anything, the world stops and you listen. And this is my way of listening, taking notes, and doing it very slowly so I can calm down-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 5:44 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 5:44 ... and not react quickly by saying something I'd, I'll regret [laughs] later on.

Mel Robbins 5:51 I wanna just pause.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 5:52 It's okay.

Dr. John Gottman 5:52 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 5:53 It's okay, honey.

Mel Robbins 5:54 You know what's adorable about you two, and if you're listening, I'm just gonna describe it. If you're watching this episode, you will have already seen it, is that you both keep turning toward one another- And smiling, and you have this very warm, loving gaze at one another-

Dr. John Gottman 6:19 Mm

Mel Robbins 6:19 ... as the other is talking.

Dr. John Gottman 6:21 How can you not love this?

Mel Robbins 6:22 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 6:23 This is beautiful.

Mel Robbins 6:25 And you also are, like, holding hands, and there's a, there's a-

Dr. John Gottman 6:28 Yeah

Mel Robbins 6:28 ... physical touch connection-

Dr. John Gottman 6:30 Oh, yeah

Mel Robbins 6:30 ... which is extremely noticeable because you don't see it all that often-

Dr. John Gottman 6:36 Mm

Mel Robbins 6:36 ... in couples.

Dr. John Gottman 6:37 Mm.

Mel Robbins 6:37 And I wanted to just unpack the genius of your response, Dr. Gottman, to those four terrifying words-

Dr. John Gottman 6:47 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 6:47 ... "We need to talk."

Dr. John Gottman 6:49 [laughs] Right.

Mel Robbins 6:50 Um, which I'm also realizing sometimes I don't give Chris the grace of preparing him for the fact that I'm about to blast at him like a volcano.

Dr. John Gottman 7:00 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 7:01 But what I loved, because I do think there is something very intentional about what you just described, that as you're imagining Dr. Gottman, and he leaned forward, and he reached into his back pocket, and he pulled out a, a notebook that's, like, the size of a three by five card.

Dr. John Gottman 7:23 Right.

Mel Robbins 7:23 And, or, you opened it up slowly, and then you said you started to write, and that is your way of listening. But it's so important to also point out as you're, as you're hearing this, that you are also managing your reaction-

Dr. John Gottman 7:40 Exactly. Yeah

Mel Robbins 7:41 ... in the middle of what could become an argument or conflict.

Dr. John Gottman 7:45 Yeah. Delay is the way of engaging the frontal lobes [laughs] instead of reacting direct from your amygdala, you know, which is terror, right? And defensiveness comes out. So when you engage the brain, uh, the thinking brain, then you can be a little, little less defensive.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 8:05 Yeah, let me add.

Dr. John Gottman 8:06 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 8:07 You can be, uh, less physiologically aroused.

Dr. John Gottman 8:10 Right.

Mel Robbins 8:10 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 8:11 You know, one of the things that we found in our research is that oftentimes people can be sitting as calmly as John and I are right now, having a conflict, but one of their heart rates will be over 100 beats a minute. And they've gone into fight or flight, which means blood has left this prefrontal cortex, moved back into the motor cortex. They cannot think clearly, listen clearly, problem solve, and be creative. It's impossible because this is offline.

Mel Robbins 8:45 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 8:46 So by John pulling out that notebook very slowly, there's a couple of ways it's wonderful. For one, it keeps you calm.

Dr. John Gottman 8:58 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 8:58 It keeps you mo- more focused on kind of the cognitive elements-

Dr. John Gottman 9:03 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 9:03 ... of what I'm saying as opposed to, " [gasps] Did he? Did she really say that?" Or, or for me, what it tells me is that, gosh, he's gonna take me seriously.

Mel Robbins 9:18 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 9:19 Right? He's not gonna be thinking about, "Okay, when do I get the oil changed in the car?" I can tell that he's listening because he is taking notes, and that's meaningful for me. It helps me to feel his presence, and it's a wonderful thing for all of you to do as well.

Mel Robbins 9:39 I love that, and I, I could imagine Dr. Gottman reaching, "Hold on. Let me get my notebook out of my pocket here."

Dr. John Gottman 9:46 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 9:47 Um, you study love in a lab. What does that mean? For the person that's not familiar with your groundbreaking foundational research on relationships, what do you do?

Dr. John Gottman 10:00 Yeah. So, um, Julie and I, uh, after we first met, you know, we designed this apartment where 130 newlywed couples, just a couple of months after the wedding, would spend 24 hours, cameras rolling, no instructions. You know, they have an opportunity to eat together, clean up together, you know, read the newspaper, watch TV, whatever they wanna do, and the cameras are just rolling. And while they're walking around, we're measuring their heart rate. They're measuring all kinds of physiological measures. Every time they urinate, we take a blood, we take a sample and measure stress hormones, and then we take blood from them the next day and, and look at the immune system and stress hormones in the immune system. So we're just kind of watching couples, and it turns out that we can predict the future of the relationship six years later from the way they interacted in that apartment lab.

Mel Robbins 11:01 Can I ask something?

Dr. John Gottman 11:01 So the prediction is really 94% accurate-

Mel Robbins 11:06 Right [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 11:06 ... at predicting the future.

Mel Robbins 11:08 So you can predict-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 11:08 But let me-

Mel Robbins 11:09 ... with 94% accuracy who-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 11:10 That's right

Mel Robbins 11:10 ... was gonna make it and who wasn't?

Dr. John Gottman 11:12 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 11:12 That's right.

Mel Robbins 11:13 This is like the original-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 11:14 Six years down the road

Mel Robbins 11:15 ... reality TV. It sounds like you guys-

Dr. John Gottman 11:16 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 11:16 ... invented the format.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 11:17 That's right. Let me add also that this brilliant man over here created a fantastic system for codifying emotions. That means looking at the face, looking at the movements of the body, looking at the words, the tone of voice, the eye gaze, and assessing from that what emotion is that individual feeling when they speak. Then what's the other individual gonna respond with? What kind of feeling is that? So we call that SPAF, specific affect, which means emotion, specific affect coding. And that in itself tells us a huge amount about the dynamic.

Mel Robbins 12:05 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 12:05 Who's being belligerent? Who's being domineering? Who is being subordinate? Who's being kind? Who's trying to make a repair if they said the wrong thing so that the other person doesn't get their feelings hurt?

Dr. John Gottman 12:22 Or using humor as a way to wind things down. Humor turns out to be very important.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 12:28 Right. Why is how we handle conflict so important in a relationship?

Dr. John Gottman 12:34 Because we fight all the time. [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 12:37 We are human beings. You know, one of the things, Mel, that I have really tried to understand since I was a kid is, how come people are mean to each other?

Mel Robbins 12:49 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 12:49 Why is that? What's evil? What does that even mean? What I've really understood from lots of archeological reading and so on, is that people have aggression. They've also got altruism. They can be very, very kind. But all of us have those aggressive instincts inside of us. So what happens with it? Typically, it goes to the person that's closest to us-

Mel Robbins 13:18 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 13:19 ... because that person, we assume, is not gonna abandon us, is not gonna run away. They're gonna be there to listen to us.

Dr. John Gottman 13:29 Uh-huh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 13:29 And so we have personality differences from our partner, lifestyle preference differences from our partner. Everybody has those, and 69% of the issues couples struggle with are perpetual conflicts. They never, ever go away.

Dr. John Gottman 13:50 That was a big surprise to us.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 13:52 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 13:52 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 13:53 So they just keep coming up, right, over and over and over again in some different format, through the side door. So what do you do with that? Well, people can avoid those, sweep them under the rug, but, you know, they don't have conflict, but they grow more distant-

Mel Robbins 14:12 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 14:12 ... typically-

Dr. John Gottman 14:13 Mm-hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 14:13 ... over time. Or they can learn to really talk in a way that's calm, little bit of emotion, m- maybe a little more intellectual, you know, trying to solve the problem very fast. We call those validators. And then there's me.

Mel Robbins 14:31 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 14:31 I'm a volatile, like maybe you are, and we love to explode. We love to [laughs] be passionate about expressing our emotion.

Dr. John Gottman 14:42 And I'm a conflict avoider. [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 14:44 It's a great combo. So-

Mel Robbins 14:46 A turtle

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 14:47 ... we figured it out over time.

Mel Robbins 14:50 Um, we're gonna get into these different types.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 14:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 14:54 Mm-hmm

Mel Robbins 14:54 But before we do, I wanna just talk a little bit about the research because it's so-

Dr. John Gottman 14:59 Uh-huh, sure

Mel Robbins 14:59 ... fascinating.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 15:00 Sure.

Mel Robbins 15:00 Um, you've already mentioned that by observing a couple in this apartment love lab, you could predict with 94% accuracy-

Dr. John Gottman 15:11 Right

Mel Robbins 15:11 ... whether or not they were gonna be together in six years.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 15:13 That's correct.

Dr. John Gottman 15:14 That's right.

Mel Robbins 15:14 And we're gonna get into what you were looking at that really was the signal that they're not gonna make it. But there's

Mel Robbins 15:22 also interesting research that you have around how the first three minutes of a fight predict everything.

Dr. John Gottman 15:30 Right.

Mel Robbins 15:31 Let's hear-

Dr. John Gottman 15:31 Yeah

Mel Robbins 15:31 ... about that.

Dr. John Gottman 15:31 Uh, you know, Bob and I found that, um, that if we, we had couples talk about a conflict issue for 15 minutes, we could predict with almost 90% accuracy whether they would divorce or stay together, and if they stayed together, how happily married or unhappily married they would be. But then somebody in my lab, Sibyl Carrero, said, "What if we lop off the data from the last three minutes and we only have 12 minutes? What's the prediction like with only 12 minutes of data?" And it was just fine. And she said, "Well, let's lop off another three minutes," and it was just fine. She got down to the first three minutes, and we were still predicting the future of the relationship very accurately by just looking at that first three minutes. Because couples who really are gonna wind up divorced or together unhappily start off the conversation really differently from couples who are, we call the masters of relationship. That beginning is so important.

Mel Robbins 16:36 Uh, uh, now I'm like, okay, well, what's the beginning that predicts divorce and breakup-

Dr. John Gottman 16:42 Right

Mel Robbins 16:42 ... versus-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 16:43 Hey, I have an idea

Mel Robbins 16:43 ... the beginning that doesn't?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 16:45 I have an idea. Let's role play it.

Mel Robbins 16:46 Let's do it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 16:47 Let's role play it.

Dr. John Gottman 16:48 Sure.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 16:48 All right, so this is predictive of going down.

Mel Robbins 16:52 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 16:53 Yeah, well, so I, I, I wanted to talk to you about this. I really think that you're, you're really ruining this marriage. And-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:00 What?

Dr. John Gottman 17:00 ... it's, it's, it's your responsibility because you're being so obsessive compulsive with just-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:06 Wait a minute. Wait a minute

Dr. John Gottman 17:07 ... looking at ev- d- let me finish.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:09 I'm not gonna let you finish.

Dr. John Gottman 17:10 Uh, yeah, I-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:10 You're such a slob that, you know, I can't even walk through the living room.

Dr. John Gottman 17:15 I am, I am charmingly, uh, sloppy.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:18 Sloppy, yes.

Dr. John Gottman 17:19 But you are-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:20 Pretty much

Dr. John Gottman 17:20 ... really a, a nut. I mean, you're... You need therapy.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:24 What?

Dr. John Gottman 17:24 You really do. I mean-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:25 You know, I need therapy

Dr. John Gottman 17:25 ... everything has to be perfect for you.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:28 I-

Dr. John Gottman 17:28 Everything's gotta be perfect.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:29 Well, that's right.

Dr. John Gottman 17:30 Why-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:30 And I need therapy-

Dr. John Gottman 17:31 Lighten up

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:32 ... just to live with you.

Dr. John Gottman 17:33 I, I don't even wanna talk-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:34 God

Dr. John Gottman 17:34 ... about this anymore.

Mel Robbins 17:35 All right. I feel like I now know what it's like to be a marriage therapist-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:42 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 17:42 ... watching the two of you.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:44 Oh, you ain't seen nothing. [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 17:45 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:46 That could be worse.

Mel Robbins 17:47 Wow.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 17:48 I once had somebody who was so upset, so flooded, and she was all of about 4'10", and her husband was 6'5" and had cheated on her, et cetera. So I tried to calm her down. She finally sat down on the couch, and my couch was a beautiful red leather, gorgeous couch. When she left, there were scratch marks on the couch. That, that can be-

Mel Robbins 18:18 I bet her heart rate was up

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 18:19 I bet it was

Dr. John Gottman 18:20 That's fight or flight, yeah

Mel Robbins 18:21 So unpack what was happening in that, because I think that we've all experienced those kinds of fights, whether it's about the relationship or now you're arguing about, well, you're, you're, you're giving the kid too much money and da, da, da, and you're over-parenting and like, you know, aiming at... Like what was happening in that fight you just had?

Dr. John Gottman 18:42 So I was describing the problem in terms of her personality being deficient.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 18:49 Mm.

Mel Robbins 18:49 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 18:49 That there was something wrong with her.

Mel Robbins 18:51 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 18:51 It was all her fault.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 18:52 So you, you, you, you. That's all he was saying, and of course, I got defensive and I counterattacked. That's a classic form of defensiveness. You counterattack.

Dr. John Gottman 19:06 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:06 So then I moved into you, you, you, you, and it was all about character flaws.

Mel Robbins 19:14 Mm. He's a slob.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:15 That's right.

Mel Robbins 19:16 Yes. He-

Dr. John Gottman 19:16 And all I'm doing is trying to give her feedback about what's wrong with her-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:20 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 19:20 ... so she can improve.

Mel Robbins 19:21 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 19:21 'Cause I'm pretty much perfect as far as I can tell. [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:24 See, this, it's a halo. It's a halo.

Mel Robbins 19:26 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 19:26 It's not a yarmulke. It's a halo that God gave me.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:29 He's so-

Dr. John Gottman 19:29 So I'm always innocent, and it's always her fault.

Mel Robbins 19:32 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 19:34 That's-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:34 So

Dr. John Gottman 19:34 ... the way that disasters are acued.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:36 Right. And notice, did you see any listening there?

Mel Robbins 19:40 No.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:41 Zero listening, right?

Mel Robbins 19:42 Zero.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:43 That's right. So people were talking over each other and immediately coming up with their rebuke before even hearing the last words of their sentence-

Dr. John Gottman 19:55 And-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:55 ... of the partner

Dr. John Gottman 19:56 ... right away, persuasion enters.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 19:58 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 19:59 I'm trying to persuade her that I'm right and she's wrong.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:03 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 20:03 You know, and I haven't even listened to what, what her concerns are, right?

Mel Robbins 20:07 The other thing that happened is the volume-

Dr. John Gottman 20:11 Right

Mel Robbins 20:11 ... started getting higher and higher and higher-

Dr. John Gottman 20:15 Right

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:15 Right

Mel Robbins 20:16 ... because neither one of you were listening, and you're both blaming, and now you're trying to talk over one another.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:23 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 20:23 And then you both went like, "Huh."

Dr. John Gottman 20:25 And if I'm, if I'm physiologically flooded-

Mel Robbins 20:29 Right

Dr. John Gottman 20:29 ... I think all I need to do is repeat myself louder in order to be more persuasive.

Mel Robbins 20:35 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 20:35 That's the way I reason when I'm flooded. [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:39 63 times later-

Dr. John Gottman 20:40 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:40 ... have I listened? No. [laughs]

Mel Robbins 20:43 What does a positive argument look like?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:48 Okay, let's, let's role model that.

Dr. John Gottman 20:51 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:51 We can use the same topic.

Dr. John Gottman 20:52 Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:53 Okay. So I-

Dr. John Gottman 20:55 You know-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 20:55 What's going on, honey?

Dr. John Gottman 20:56 Well, I'm, I'm, I'm kinda thinking that, um, I can't do anything right, you know? I mean, I've tried, I've tried, you know, being neater, more tidy, cleaning things up and, you know, it's never good enough for you. It feels like that. You know, like, like I can't satisfy you. It's just like I, I kinda give up, you know? What am I supposed to do to make you happy?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:20 Oh, God. That sounds actually like a pretty terrible feeling.

Dr. John Gottman 21:24 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:24 So you're really-

Dr. John Gottman 21:26 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:26 ... frustrated because there's nothing you can do that you feel is good enough. Is that right?

Dr. John Gottman 21:32 Yeah, I-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:32 Am I making you feel that way?

Dr. John Gottman 21:33 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:34 Oh, dear. What am I doing that leads to you feeling that way? 'Cause I don't want you to feel that way. I don't wanna-

Dr. John Gottman 21:42 Okay

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:42 ... treat you that way.

Dr. John Gottman 21:42 Well, you know, like for example, you ask me to clean up the kitchen, you know? If, so I, I clean it up, you know, and it doesn't meet your standards. So I, I don't even know what your standards are. I mean, it-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:54 Do you want me to tell you what they are? Probably not.

Dr. John Gottman 21:57 Well, no, that would help.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 21:58 Would it?

Dr. John Gottman 21:59 I really would like to know. Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:00 Oh, Gosh.

Dr. John Gottman 22:01 'Cause I think I've done it just fine.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:03 Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 22:04 And then you're disappointed.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:05 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 22:05 I, I just don't get it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:07 Mm. I see. Well, I tell you what. What would make a huge difference for me-

Dr. John Gottman 22:14 All right

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:14 ... is after washing-

Dr. John Gottman 22:15 Well, let me, let me write this down.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:17 Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 22:18 All right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:18 That's a great idea.

Dr. John Gottman 22:19 All right. So what-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:19 Get out your notebook.

Dr. John Gottman 22:21 Yeah. Hang on a minute.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:25 Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 22:26 Let me just breathe a little bit here. [laughs] Okay. So-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:29 I promise I won't hurt your feelings.

Dr. John Gottman 22:31 All right. [laughs] Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:32 After, after washing the dishes-

Dr. John Gottman 22:34 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:35 ... it would be wonderful if you would wipe down the counters.

Dr. John Gottman 22:40 Oh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:40 You know, just get all those crumbs into the sink and then rinse them down the sink. That's really all I need, just to have counters that are clean. That would make a huge difference for me.

Dr. John Gottman 22:55 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 22:55 It would feel great.

Dr. John Gottman 22:57 You know, I really can't tell when a counter is clean or not, 'cause it's got, you know, you got this pattern of, you know, on the-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:05 Colors

Dr. John Gottman 23:06 ... on the, yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:07 This is true. This is why I chose a counter with brown in it.

Dr. John Gottman 23:13 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:14 It would disguise all of the crumbs.

Dr. John Gottman 23:15 I just wipe it down really well.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:17 Just wipe it.

Dr. John Gottman 23:17 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:18 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 23:18 All right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:18 Just wipe it.

Dr. John Gottman 23:19 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:19 That's all you have to do.

Dr. John Gottman 23:20 All right. All right. I, I can do that.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:21 Would you, would you-

Dr. John Gottman 23:22 Yeah, yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:23 ... mind doing that?

Dr. John Gottman 23:23 I'll, I'll do that. I'll do it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:24 Yay.

Mel Robbins 23:25 Oh, my God.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:26 Thank you.

Mel Robbins 23:26 I love you two.

Dr. John Gottman 23:28 That makes sense.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:28 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 23:29 I, you are adorable.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:32 We're okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:33 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 23:33 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 23:33 But what, can you explain what just happened in that conflict?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:40 Yeah, yeah. Easy. So it started, it started in a perfect way, which was John bringing up that he's feeling bad-

Mel Robbins 23:52 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 23:52 ... about an interaction of ours. But notice he's not saying, "You're a schmuck, and that's why I feel bad." He's saying, "I feel like I can't do anything right." So is you in there? No. He is having that feeling, which pulls on my heart, Mel.

Mel Robbins 24:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 24:14 He's being vulnerable with me and telling me what his feeling is like, and that feeling I'm translating into, "Oh, God, he's feeling hopeless." He's feeling despair. I don't want him to feel that way. But here's the kicker, I wanna understand what's making him feel that way. So instead of just responding with, you know, just a comment, I ask a question-

Mel Robbins 24:43 Hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 24:44 ... to try to understand. Tell me more. Tell me more. Because, you know, it's sort of like if something pretty smelly is bubbling up from the earth, I wanna know what's under the earth, you know, what's going on down there that is creating something that feels bad for him. So I ask him a question, and that gives me information about, oh, that's what's happening inside. That's something that we can change. It leads to a solution.

Mel Robbins 25:20 I love this example, and I'm gonna tell you why. I personally know that Chris and I for years would have this reoccurring fight, and when I'm volcanoing and he's turtling, when he pokes his head out of the shell to say something, it would literally be, "Nothing's ever good enough for you."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 25:43 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 25:43 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:44 And I think that's a very common, like, way that people then bark at each other.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 25:52 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:52 And it's very different to say, "Well, nothing's good enough for you. I don't even know what to do because it's never enough for you."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 25:57 Hmm.

Mel Robbins 25:59 Versus what you just taught us-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:02 Mm-hmm

Mel Robbins 26:02 ... which is instead of accusing noth- it's you-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:07 Hmm

Mel Robbins 26:07 ... I feel that no matter what I do, it's never enough. And you're right, as soon as Chris started saying that to me, I immediately feel like a monster, and then I wanna know, okay, well, what, what, what, what exactly? I'm sorry.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:23 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 26:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 26:23 And I can see why this works.

Dr. John Gottman 26:25 Sure. Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:25 Right.

Dr. John Gottman 26:26 Right.

Mel Robbins 26:26 You know-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:26 Right

Mel Robbins 26:26 ... if couples fight the first way, yelling at each other, "It's never enough for you, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra, ra," fine, door slams, go into your corners, is there hope?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:37 Sure. Of course. You know, the thing is this. When in our lab we saw couples who were going down the road of distress, remember they weren't getting any intervention.

Mel Robbins 26:51 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 26:51 They weren't reading anything. They weren't listening to fabulous podcasts like yours. [laughs] They weren't trying to learn a different manner of relating to one another. So without intervention, they're falling back on old habits-

Dr. John Gottman 27:08 Right

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 27:08 ... on what they learned-

Mel Robbins 27:09 Hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 27:09 ... at the feet of their parents or caretakers, which didn't work. So, you know, nobody takes Relationships 101 in high school. You gotta learn different ways of talking to one another.

Mel Robbins 27:24 The Mel Robbins Podcast is proudly sponsored by Amica Insurance, our exclusive auto, home, and life insurance partner. Insurance is one of those things you hope you never need, but when you do, the experience matters, and that's where Amica really stands apart. When it comes to taking care of people, they go the extra mile, from answering your questions, to customizing your policy, to checking in after a claim. Amica leads with empathy. They listen, they follow up, and they make sure you feel supported at every turn. And here's something else that really stands out. Amica's a mutual insurer. That means they're built for their customers, not shareholders. You're the priority, your needs, your protection, your peace of mind. Empathetic, thoughtful, and focused on you. It's the way insurance should be, protection that always puts you first. Visit amica.com and get a quote today.

Mel Robbins 28:28 When somebody says to you, "Oh, we never fight."

Dr. John Gottman 28:32 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 28:33 What do you think?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 28:35 Uh, I think they're probably conflict avoiders, and I think, oh, dear. [laughs] We've gotta help this couple surface, unearth the differences, the things that are irritating, annoying, because if you hold them inside and you don't bring them up, after a while they accumulate, and then you may end up with an eruption, right?

Mel Robbins 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 29:05 Which doesn't help anybody.

Dr. John Gottman 29:07 One thing that can happen, uh, we saw in this study that the Sloan Center at UCLA did on dual career couples with young children, and they spent less than 10% of an evening in the same room. They talked to each other an average of 35 minutes a week, and mostly what they talked about was errands, who's gonna do what when. So they s- they wound up really living these parallel lives where they ignored the relationship. They ignored friendship, intimacy, fun, adventure. They were just... Their lives had devolved into this infinite to-do list that they did together, but that was the only contact they had, so they lived life in parallel. You know, he, he goes to work. She goes to work. They come home. They, you know, they're with the kids, but they're not really talking to each other. They're not saying, "God, you know, we used to have so much fun, and we don't have any anymore. We're just kind of becoming drudges." They don't say that to one another.

Mel Robbins 30:14 They stay roommates.

Dr. John Gottman 30:16 They stay roommates. They avoid conflict. They avoid saying how lonely they are-

Mel Robbins 30:21 Hmm

Dr. John Gottman 30:21 ... how unhappy they are, how much they miss the way they used to really pay attention to the relationship.

Mel Robbins 30:27 If the person listening is thinking, "Well, that's me- Because I can think of periods of Chris and my marriage where we have three kids who are now-

Dr. John Gottman 30:35 Right

Mel Robbins 30:35 ... all in their, you know, 20s.

Dr. John Gottman 30:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 30:37 But when they were little, that was us.

Dr. John Gottman 30:40 That was you. Yeah, um-

Mel Robbins 30:40 We were two ships passing in the morning and the night and arguing about who didn't go to the grocery store, and that no matter what I do, it's never enough.

Dr. John Gottman 30:49 Yeah, you have to build in rituals of connection in the relationship. Build in times that you can count on having your partner's ears. And, you know, we have an annual honeymoon that we do, and for 27 years we've gone to the same bed and breakfast, and took, took our kayak, and we spend two weeks asking each other three questions: What sucked about last year? What did you hate about last year? What did you love about last year? And what do you want next year to be like? So we, we have that ritual where we know we can connect, and it's romantic, and it's fun, and we kayak and, you know, we hike and, you know, it's always magic.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 31:34 Let me point out, though, what John is talking about, especially for really busy two-career couples-

Mel Robbins 31:41 Mm-hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 31:42 ... are those rituals of connection, but they don't have to be great big, uh, you know, broadcasts. They can be something so simple like how do you say good morning first thing when you wake up? How do you say good night-

Mel Robbins 32:00 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 32:01 ... and you look forward to that? What do you do on the weekends when you get to sleep in? How about a date night? You know, I mean, lots of people talk about that, but do they actually do it?

Mel Robbins 32:15 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 32:16 So there's so many ways we can connect with one another that sustains the sense that, ah, they're right beside me. They're right there, even though they're in a different office.

Mel Robbins 32:29 I love that recommendation because I do think when you're in that moment, as the research suggests, which I think most couples are both probably working 'cause of the reality of how expensive life is-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 32:41 That's right

Dr. John Gottman 32:41 Yeah

Mel Robbins 32:41 ... and coming and going, and that only 35 minutes a week in the... I, I mean, that's just sad.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 32:48 Can you imagine?

Mel Robbins 32:49 And I appreciate the small thing, like could you create something first thing in the morning? Could you create something that's part of the wind down at night? One of the things that I remember that made a big difference, and I'll just share it in case it's helpful for the person listening, is since logistics was the reality, and it was also the source of all of our conflict, that we, the one connection ritual that really changed things was we had a Sunday night calendar meeting.

Dr. John Gottman 33:15 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 33:15 Mm.

Mel Robbins 33:15 Now, that doesn't exactly sound like a date night-

Dr. John Gottman 33:18 Yeah

Mel Robbins 33:18 ... but it became a consistent thing we could do every week that helped us be aligned-

Dr. John Gottman 33:26 Mm-hmm

Mel Robbins 33:27 ... and helped us coordinate the logistics-

Dr. John Gottman 33:30 Yeah, yeah

Mel Robbins 33:30 ... at one point.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 33:32 Beautiful.

Dr. John Gottman 33:32 You were a team.

Mel Robbins 33:33 Yes. And to this day we do it.

Dr. John Gottman 33:37 That's great.

Mel Robbins 33:38 And it's just the smallest of things. And the other thing that I'll, I have to give a huge shout-out to Chris that he does that makes a big difference for me is he puts little notes, just kinda like the, the notebook you have. He'll rip out a page and just put, "I love you," and I'll open up my eyeglass case-

Dr. John Gottman 33:55 Oh

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 33:55 Mm

Mel Robbins 33:55 ... in the middle of the day-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 33:57 Aw

Mel Robbins 33:57 ... and there it is.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 33:58 Beautiful.

Mel Robbins 33:58 Or I'll open up my wallet, and there it is, and I had no idea that he had done that. And so it's kind of this little signal that I'm still here with you even though I may not be standing next to you.

Dr. John Gottman 34:12 Yeah. I, you know, a consistent research finding is that you cannot just focus on conflict as a therapist. You have to work on friendship and intimacy-

Mel Robbins 34:22 Mm

Dr. John Gottman 34:23 ... romance, passion, play, and fun. You have to work on all of that together. It, it's not enough to just make conflict better. You really have to bring, you know, the two souls together [laughs] in a way that is ha- it brings joy into the relationship.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 34:42 Let me just mention something about your meeting, which is fabulous doing that as a ritual of connection. One thing that we also talk about is a weekly meeting which often takes place on Sundays. We call it the state of the union, right? And so, um, what we suggest is that first you begin with gratitude. You think of something your partner has done that maybe you haven't yet thanked them for, and you express your gratitude and your appreciation to your partner for having done that. You know, so often we take our partners for granted, right? Especially after years of being together. So all of us, however, still need to be seen. We need to be appreciated.

Dr. John Gottman 35:35 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 35:36 And so starting with that is lovely. And then in the middle piece, maybe there is a complaint that you have, you haven't talked about, or maybe you had a little regrettable incident that you need to process, clear the air about that, try and understand what went wrong during that and what to do right next time. And then you end the meeting with another appreciation, another expression of gratitude. I mean, there's, there's nothing better than hearing gratitude as a sign that, look, you're visible. You're important to me. I see who you are. I love what you do, and I want you to know I recognize you, and it's, you're beautiful.

Dr. John Gottman 36:28 And a great question to end the meeting with is, what can I do next week- To make you feel loved

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 36:35 Is that the best question in the world?

Mel Robbins 36:37 The best.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 36:37 I know.

Mel Robbins 36:38 I would love to have us just really highlight the warning signs around conflict, and there are four horsemen of the apocalypse

Mel Robbins 36:50 in your relationship. What are they?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 36:52 Okay. So the first one is criticism. Criticism means blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner.

Mel Robbins 37:02 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 37:03 Like, "You're so selfish," "You're so lazy," "You're so inconsiderate, thoughtless," whatever. So a characteristic that's bad that you're seeing in your partner, that's criticism.

Mel Robbins 37:15 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 37:16 Secondly is contempt, and contempt is the worst one we have. Contempt is like criticism, but you're coming from a place of superiority, looking down your nose at your partner, and you're sneering a little bit. You've got a look of disgust maybe on your face. There's scorn, there's mockery. Sometimes sarcasm is contempt. And contempt is not only the best predictor of relationship demise, but as John was saying, and I'll fine-tune it a little bit, the number of times a listener hears contempt in a conflict for 15 minutes predicts how many infectious illnesses they're gonna have in the next four years.

Dr. John Gottman 38:12 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 38:12 Because it is sulfuric acid for the immune system.

Mel Robbins 38:17 Wow.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 38:17 Yeah. It's a big deal. The third horseman is defensiveness. We all love defensiveness.

Dr. John Gottman 38:25 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 38:25 Everybody's defensive unless they have an ego of a rock. I haven't met a rock lately. So defensiveness gets manifested as either counter-attack, as we described, or whining.

Mel Robbins 38:41 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 38:41 He is a victim.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 38:42 "Oh, I did too clean the kitchen. What do you mean?" Okay. I love whining. It's, it's great. And then there's stonewalling, and stonewalling is completely shutting down, but it's not shutting down for just a few seconds, you know, to come up with the right phrase. It's shutting down completely-

Mel Robbins 39:05 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:05 ... for minutes, minutes, minutes, long minutes, maybe hours at a time. And what brilliant John here and his colleague Bob Levinson discovered with physiology is that when a person was flooded, they were in fight or flight. Their heart rates were often over 100 beats a minute as they sat there-

Dr. John Gottman 39:28 And they started stonewalling

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:29 ... and they started stonewalling-

Dr. John Gottman 39:31 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:31 ... in order to go inside and-

Mel Robbins 39:34 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:35 ... try and soothe themselves because being in fight or flight while you're sitting there feels awful. Makes you sick.

Dr. John Gottman 39:44 So that turtle thing that Chris does, right?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:46 Yes. Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 39:46 You know? And he's just trying to calm himself down, but to the person speaking to him, it looks like he doesn't care.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:53 Correct.

Dr. John Gottman 39:54 You know? And he's, he's-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:55 And then I'm getting-

Dr. John Gottman 39:55 ... tuned out. You can't reach him

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:56 ... well, now I'm yelling.

Dr. John Gottman 39:57 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:57 I'm yelling-

Mel Robbins 39:58 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 39:58 ... 'cause he's, like, not responding.

Dr. John Gottman 39:59 That's right. So-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 40:00 And it makes it worse.

Dr. John Gottman 40:01 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 40:01 Yes. I can see that.

Dr. John Gottman 40:02 Well, the other thing is that, uh, Bob and I also, as we kept following couples, we found there was a group of couples who didn't do the four horsemen, but when they talked about the events of the day, there was no connection.

Mel Robbins 40:18 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 40:18 And they even went out of their way to show that they were bored with their partner talking about their day. So it's not that they had all this negative stuff. They didn't have very much positivity, not very much interest in one another, not very much shared humor, affection, and those couples divorce an average of 16 years after the wedding.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 40:40 Wow.

Dr. John Gottman 40:40 They last longer, but, you know, it's still disaster.

Mel Robbins 40:44 I would

Mel Robbins 40:45 love to go deeper into all four of the horsemen of the apocalypse of a relationship. Could you describe for the person who's listening right now, what do you mean by flooding? So if somebody's never heard this term-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 40:58 Mm-hmm

Mel Robbins 40:59 ... um, and they're not quite... And, you know, I think there's a... It's kinda obvious if you're, like, the stonewaller or y- or rather you shut down and you're like the turtle or you're a volcano like me. But can you describe what does it mean to have this emotional flooding, and what are the, what are the kind of personality types of flooding, if you will, so the person can see themselves as we unpack the four different horsemen, if that makes sense?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 41:28 Sure. Sure. So first of all, there is no correlation between personality type and flooding. Anybody can get flooded.

Mel Robbins 41:39 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 41:40 Anybody, first of all.

Mel Robbins 41:42 And what does that mean when you use that term flooded?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 41:44 Okay. So what it means is that you are so overwhelmed by what feels like facing a saber-toothed tiger.

Mel Robbins 41:55 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 41:56 So what's happening is you're hearing what feels like an attack. It may not be one, but it feels like one. And because it feels like an attack, right, and it's a dangerous attack, it's threatening, it sets off this fight or flight response. And so men who experience this and get flooded are gonna look like this. They give themselves permission-

Dr. John Gottman 42:25 To tune out

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 42:25 ... to look away, to look away. But a female doesn't typically, and here's why. Because you know, as women- From, you know, this high, we are trained to relate to others, to nurture others, to take care of others, right? To be sensitive to others' feelings. So we don't give ourselves permission to break contact and look away.

Mel Robbins 42:54 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 42:54 So what flooding for a woman looks like is very different. It looks like this.

Mel Robbins 43:02 And you're just kind of staring...

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:05 Nobody's home.

Mel Robbins 43:06 No one's home.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:07 Nobody's home.

Mel Robbins 43:07 Blank face.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:08 That's right. You may be meeting the other person's eyes, but nobody's home. You've taken yourself out.

Mel Robbins 43:16 I just realized my daughter does that-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:19 Ah

Mel Robbins 43:19 ... when-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:20 Hey

Mel Robbins 43:20 ... I get, like, scary.

Dr. John Gottman 43:23 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 43:23 It- that she-

Dr. John Gottman 43:26 A deer in the headlights.

Mel Robbins 43:27 Yes.

Dr. John Gottman 43:27 Right.

Mel Robbins 43:27 Doesn't know what to do.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:28 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 43:28 That's right. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:29 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:29 Okay.

Mel Robbins 43:30 That was very helpful. 'Cause you're right, if y- and I know that this is all based on your research, that for a lot of men it's the crossed arms.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:38 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:39 It's the looking away.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:40 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 43:40 It's the walking out of the room-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:41 Yeah

Mel Robbins 43:42 ... or going to make a drink as you're walking, like following them, yelling at them.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:46 Mm.

Mel Robbins 43:47 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 43:49 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:49 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 43:49 And it, and it, it feels kind of awful in your body. You know? It's, it's, it's almost like having a panic attack. You know, you're... You know, the breathing is more shallow and more rapid and, you know, it really feels like, uh, there's no way to win here, you know?

Mel Robbins 44:06 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 44:06 I mean, you, you just have to escape.

Mel Robbins 44:09 Yes. I can see that. And you're escaping your body or the room.

Dr. John Gottman 44:13 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:13 That's right.

Mel Robbins 44:14 I, that's, that was super helpful. Let's dig into each of the four horsemen and start with criticism.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:22 Okay.

Mel Robbins 44:22 How is criticism defined in the research? And I'd love to have you role play- [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:29 Sure. Sure

Mel Robbins 44:29 ... a example-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:31 Uh-huh

Mel Robbins 44:31 ... and teach us how we can shift out of it-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:36 Okay

Mel Robbins 44:37 ... when we're in the middle of it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:38 Let me just mention that the shifting that you are pointing out, which is very astute, is what we call repair.

Mel Robbins 44:47 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:47 So making a repair during a conversation is a great way to step aside from those four horsemen and make the conversation flow better.

Mel Robbins 44:59 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 44:59 Okay. So, um, again, I think the definition of it would be blaming a problem on a personality flaw of your partner. That's what it is.

Dr. John Gottman 45:10 So let me start.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 45:10 Okay, go ahead.

Dr. John Gottman 45:12 I've been, uh, meaning to talk to you because I think that, uh, I have something to teach you, you know.

Mel Robbins 45:21 What do you mean?

Dr. John Gottman 45:22 Uh, well, you know, I noticed that, you know, you kinda get upset when the house is in some kinda disarray, and I don't have that problem. You know, I can concentrate really well, you know, whatever's going on around me.

Mel Robbins 45:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 45:34 So I can kinda teach you to focus your mind more, 'cause I think your mind is kind of, um, weak, you know? I think your-

Mel Robbins 45:43 What?

Dr. John Gottman 45:43 ... your mind is not-

Mel Robbins 45:44 You think my mind-

Dr. John Gottman 45:46 ... strong

Mel Robbins 45:46 ... is weak?

Dr. John Gottman 45:47 Yeah, I think you have a weak mind, and I can help you-

Mel Robbins 45:50 Honey-

Dr. John Gottman 45:50 ... strengthen your mind

Mel Robbins 45:51 ... I got better grades in college-

Dr. John Gottman 45:52 Not as much as I have, but-

Mel Robbins 45:53 ... than you did.

Dr. John Gottman 45:55 What?

Mel Robbins 45:56 I don't have a weak mind. What are you talking about?

Dr. John Gottman 45:58 Well, I'm just trying to be helpful to you.

Mel Robbins 46:01 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 46:01 I, you know, I'm trying, I'm trying to help you strengthen your mind so it's more like my mind.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:06 I tell you what, go help the dog, okay? Not me. Okay, so that's criticism.

Dr. John Gottman 46:12 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 46:13 All right. Got it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:14 Let's show the repair.

Dr. John Gottman 46:14 Let's do the antidote for each, of course.

Mel Robbins 46:17 Uh, yeah. So how do I do that?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:18 Well, we're gonna... So I'll make a repair.

Dr. John Gottman 46:20 Okay.

Mel Robbins 46:20 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:21 Okay? So why don't you pick up.

Dr. John Gottman 46:23 Yeah. You know, like I was saying, you know, I really can help you focus your mind better and be more, much more like me, you know?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:34 Honey?

Dr. John Gottman 46:35 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:36 I need to tell you, I'm really feeling defensive right now.

Dr. John Gottman 46:40 You are?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:40 I don't wanna be defensive, but I feel that way. The way that you're describing me feels to me like a put-down.

Dr. John Gottman 46:51 Oh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 46:51 Can you say what you wanna say in different words?

Dr. John Gottman 46:55 Um, well, okay. Um, I think it'd be great if even when there were a lot of books around and papers around, that you were okay with that, you didn't get upset.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:13 Phewf. Tall order. [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 47:15 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:16 Well, I tell you what, I, I hear you, and I know that I probably come across as a nag sometimes.

Dr. John Gottman 47:25 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:25 I'm sure I do. Uh-

Dr. John Gottman 47:28 I would say that, yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:29 [laughs] Yeah, I bet you would. Um, but I, you know, I think I can spend some of the time feeling comfortable with everything scattered around.

Dr. John Gottman 47:42 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:42 However, I think you probably know me well enough to understand that when my environment feels chaotic, just to me-

Dr. John Gottman 47:53 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:53 ... it may not be to you-

Dr. John Gottman 47:55 Right, right

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:55 ... but it is to me-

Dr. John Gottman 47:56 Right. Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 47:56 ... then I get all discombobulated inside. I feel really disorganized. And so all the papers and so on contribute, unfortunately, to my having that feeling.

Dr. John Gottman 48:12 Oh, okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:12 I wish I wasn't like that, but I am.

Dr. John Gottman 48:15 Yeah. 'Cause I, I, I think that a house ought to be a little bit messy to be comfortable.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:19 Yeah, I know you do. [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 48:20 You know, 'cause my mom used to clean, clean the place to, with an inch of its life, you know?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:27 I loved your mom.

Dr. John Gottman 48:28 And she'd put plastic on all the furniture and-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:30 She was crazy.

Dr. John Gottman 48:31 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:31 That's true.

Dr. John Gottman 48:32 So I kinda-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:32 I remember.

Dr. John Gottman 48:33 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:33 Yeah. Okay. Well, you don't have to sit on plastic, okay?

Dr. John Gottman 48:37 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:38 It's okay.

Dr. John Gottman 48:39 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:39 All right.

Mel Robbins 48:40 Beautiful. And I saw you repaired by using I.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:44 That's right.

Mel Robbins 48:45 I feel.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:46 That's right.

Mel Robbins 48:47 I feel defensive. So when you're getting criticized-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:50 Right

Mel Robbins 48:50 ... saying, "I feel defensive right now."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:52 Instead of going defensive.

Mel Robbins 48:54 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:54 Right?

Mel Robbins 48:55 Or-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:55 Instead of counterattacking.

Mel Robbins 48:57 Yes, or, "Stop criticizing me."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:59 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 48:59 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 49:01 I feel-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:01 Exactly

Mel Robbins 49:01 ... defensive.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:02 Yep.

Mel Robbins 49:02 That's the repair for criticism.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:03 Yep.

Mel Robbins 49:04 Got it. Beautiful. Let's move on to contempt.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:09 Okay. You wanna define that one, hon?

Dr. John Gottman 49:11 Yeah. Contempt has

Dr. John Gottman 49:13 this air of superiority. You know, I'm better than you.

Mel Robbins 49:17 Can you show us what contempt looks and sounds like-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:21 Mm-hmm

Mel Robbins 49:21 ... and how it is different than criticism?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:26 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 49:28 You can't do anything right, can you?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:31 What are you talking about? [laughs] God.

Dr. John Gottman 49:33 I mean, you know, even when you go shopping, you spend too much money. You know, you spend too much money on clothes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:39 So what?

Dr. John Gottman 49:40 You know, I, you know-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:41 So what?

Dr. John Gottman 49:42 Well, we're, we're trying to save for a down payment on a house, and you're ruining the whole thing. You're just a spender.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:49 I'm ruining the whole thing?

Dr. John Gottman 49:51 Right. Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:52 How dare you?

Dr. John Gottman 49:53 I mean-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:53 You just went out and bought a Porsche, for God's sakes, and I'm ruining everything?

Dr. John Gottman 49:57 I need that for my work.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 49:59 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 49:59 I need that. I-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:01 I need-

Dr. John Gottman 50:01 I wouldn't spend it if I didn't need it for my work

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:04 ... to take it back. I need to take it back. Okay. So that's one example.

Mel Robbins 50:08 So it's judgment.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:10 But from a place of superiority.

Mel Robbins 50:14 What about the eye-rolling-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:18 Oh, I-

Mel Robbins 50:18 ... and the like-

Dr. John Gottman 50:19 I have another exam-

Mel Robbins 50:19 Like that's a-

Dr. John Gottman 50:20 I have another example of this

Mel Robbins 50:20 ... you guys give another.

Dr. John Gottman 50:21 Uh-

Mel Robbins 50:22 With eye-rolling and the cheap.

Dr. John Gottman 50:24 Well, I've, I, I was thinking of an example that, uh, one of our therapists talked about. He, seeing this couple-

Mel Robbins 50:32 Mm

Dr. John Gottman 50:32 ... and she was being contemptuous, and he said, "Do you think you're better than me?"

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:38 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 50:39 And she said, "Better than I."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:45 Oof. Boom.

Dr. John Gottman 50:46 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:47 Wow.

Dr. John Gottman 50:48 Isn't that a killer?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:49 Correct their grammar. That's a great way to be contemptuous. [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 50:54 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 50:55 Ouch.

Mel Robbins 50:56 I have a couple in my life that's uncomfortable to be around because as one person's talking, the other one is, like, rolling their eyes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 51:03 That's right.

Mel Robbins 51:04 As they leave the room, they complain about them. And why is contempt the most harmful? And let's start there. Why is it-

Dr. John Gottman 51:16 It's really, it's really a murder attempt-

Mel Robbins 51:19 Mm

Dr. John Gottman 51:20 ... at the person's sense of self.

Mel Robbins 51:22 Mm.

Dr. John Gottman 51:23 And the Jewish Talmud talks about it as murder. You know, you're destroying the other person's sense of self, and you're saying, "You are worthless."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 51:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 51:36 And that's the worst attack, you know. It's not just something you do that I don't like, but I don't like you.

Mel Robbins 51:44 Right. Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 51:45 I call it char-

Dr. John Gottman 51:46 I devalue you

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 51:47 ... I call it character assassination.

Dr. John Gottman 51:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 51:50 That's what it is.

Mel Robbins 51:51 And do people that are contemptuous actually, are they able to recognize it?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 51:57 Uh, not always. Usually, the listener is the one who recognizes it, [laughs] you know? Um, the other person usually has a pretty heavy sense of entitlement-

Mel Robbins 52:09 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 52:09 ... that they deserve to say that. But let me also add something about why it's so destructive-

Dr. John Gottman 52:16 Mm-hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 52:17 ... that, you know, a lot of people don't really think about and acknowledge, but none of us got parented perfectly, right? None of us got taught with absolute appreciation-

Dr. John Gottman 52:31 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 52:31 ... in school. So all of us have, at base, at least a part of ourselves that's insecure-

Mel Robbins 52:40 Mm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 52:40 ... that needs to be loved, that needs to be cared about. And some people like to say that that's immature or, you know, you're just not a grown-up, and I would like to say to them, no, that's wrong. We all have that inside ourselves. We don't lose that core of insecurity and the need to be looked at with care, with love, with understanding, to be spoken to with respect, even admiration.

Dr. John Gottman 53:21 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 53:21 None of us lose that. We just add layers on top of it as we grow older, but it's still inside there, and it can still get hit if somebody expresses contempt.

Mel Robbins 53:36 That makes a lot of sense.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 53:38 So if you're the one that's getting stepped on and demeaned and interrupted and corrected by your partner, how do you repair this?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 53:49 Okay. So here's how I would repair it. Let's say he's just been contemptuous.

Mel Robbins 53:55 Mm-hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 53:57 So, you know, John, there's no way that I can hear what you're saying right now because I feel so insulted-

Dr. John Gottman 54:10 Mm-hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:10 ... by what you're saying. I don't know if that's your intention or not, but I feel like shrinking away.

Dr. John Gottman 54:18 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:19 I wanna just disappear.

Dr. John Gottman 54:20 I don't want that.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:22 Because it, it, it really, I feel really hurt-

Dr. John Gottman 54:27 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:27 ... by what you're saying. So I wish you would flip what you just said on its head and tell me what you do want-

Dr. John Gottman 54:38 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:38 ... or you do like rather than this wave of negativity I'm getting.

Dr. John Gottman 54:44 I feel like I'm, I'm judging you.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:47 Big time.

Dr. John Gottman 54:47 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:48 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 54:49 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:50 That's what it looks like.

Mel Robbins 54:52 And when you get somebody that says, "I am judging you," now you're like realizing-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:56 Okay

Mel Robbins 54:57 ... okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 54:57 Okay. Well, that's okay. So let's say I am, you know-

Dr. John Gottman 55:01 I'm just trying to give you feedback

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:03 ... Honey, the effect of the feedback and the way that you're giving it to me pushes me away.

Dr. John Gottman 55:12 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:12 It makes me wanna run away from you because it hurts so much. Feedback I can hear, if you're telling me what you do want-

Dr. John Gottman 55:22 Hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:22 ... not what you don't-

Dr. John Gottman 55:23 Okay

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:23 ... or what you don't like.

Dr. John Gottman 55:25 Good point.

Mel Robbins 55:29 Amazingly helpful. I love that I, I feel insulted, I feel hurt, 'cause what ends up happening when it's you that is getting stepped on is you tend to flood-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:40 That's right

Mel Robbins 55:41 ... and you don't know what to do.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:42 That's right.

Mel Robbins 55:43 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 55:43 That's right.

Mel Robbins 55:44 Wow.

Dr. John Gottman 55:44 Yeah. Respect is, is as important as affection.

Mel Robbins 55:48 Respect is as important as affection.

Dr. John Gottman 55:51 Yeah. Especially for women. I think, you know, today women need to feel that their partner values and respects them, and as much as they respect anybody.

Mel Robbins 56:05 Hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 56:05 You know? So one of my New Year's resolutions was, let me try to treat Julie with the kind of respect that I treated my father with.

Mel Robbins 56:17 Hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 56:18 And I had to work on that and become self-aware of ways in which I was not communicating respect. For example, it takes her longer to get ready-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 56:32 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 56:32 ... than it does me. So, you know-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 56:35 Mm

Dr. John Gottman 56:36 ... I would get in the car and wait for her, and while I was in the car, I was saying, "What the heck? Why does it take her so..." You know, by the time she came out to the car, I had worked myself into a frenzy, you know, of anger about this thing. And, you know, instead I sat in the car and said, you know, she... There's a lot of really important stuff that she sees that I don't see at all, and she needs to get those things done before she feels ready to leave the house.

Mel Robbins 57:06 Hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 57:06 So I think I'll just read my novel, and whenever she comes out, you know.

Mel Robbins 57:12 This was an issue in our marriage, too.

Dr. John Gottman 57:14 Yeah? [laughs]

Mel Robbins 57:15 Chris would be sitting in the pickup in the driveway-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 57:17 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 57:17 ... running.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 57:18 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 57:19 And I'm still putting my makeup on, and then I'm running around the house looking for my keys, 'cause I forgot that he's driving.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 57:25 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 57:26 And when I would then get in the car, he would be really frustrated.

Dr. John Gottman 57:30 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 57:31 Aw.

Mel Robbins 57:31 And I'd get an earful about it. And now I try a little harder, and he's usually listening to an audiobook when I get [laughs] in the pickup truck that's been running for 11 minutes. I've shaved like four minutes off.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 57:45 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 57:46 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 57:46 He is the best ever.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 57:48 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 57:50 I love Marshalls. I mean, come on. Don't you love Marshalls? Of course you do. I am so excited that Marshalls is now a sponsor of The Mel Robbins Podcast, because at Marshalls, you get the good stuff, brand names and styles that you love for way less. And isn't it so fun to walk into Marshalls and you're like, "Okay. I wonder what's in here, and I bet there's some really good deals"? It instantly puts you in a good mood. How do they do it? Well, the buyers at Marshalls, they are hustling behind the scenes 24/7 to bring you really cool things and all the great deals. That means you only have to worry about having fun shopping everything from dresses to denim to shoes. Another reason why I love shopping at Marshalls, I can shop for the whole family, and I'm so impressed by the designers and all the styles they stock. Marshalls, they get the deals, you get the good stuff. Shop now at marshalls.com or find a store near

Mel Robbins 58:53 you. The third horseman, uh, of the apocalypse of your relationship is defensiveness.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 59:00 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 59:01 What is defensiveness, and why is it so automatic, you know? Like, it's just, it, you, like you, you, you just kind of feel like you should defend yourself. What should you do instead?

Dr. John Gottman 59:12 Hmm. You know that lawyer that I talked about?

Mel Robbins 59:15 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 59:15 He was amazing at not getting defensive when his wife was criticizing him, and he, he really was saying, "She's got an important point. I just don't know what it is. I have to help her-

Mel Robbins 59:26 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 59:26 ... I have to help her get to it, you know? Uh, but I'm sure she's, she's got something she really wants to tell me that's important." And he had that attitude. Very respectful, you know? And I think that's the attitude you gotta take. Instead of saying, "I'm innocent, you know, I have, I have no responsibility in this. I'm, I'm pretty much perfect. If there's anybody defective, it's you," that's a really bad attitude [laughs] 'cause you're not gonna listen if you have that attitude.

Mel Robbins 59:56 I would love to hear you guys role play, and if you could do an example where one of you wishes the other one would either lose weight or take a little better care of themselves or, you know, get a trainer or actually pick up the weights that we bought last year and use them.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:17 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:00:17 You know what I'm saying? That, you know, and then the other one s- 'cause I think this is something that is-

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:21 Ooh, boy

Mel Robbins 1:00:22 ... yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:22 That's a hot issue.

Mel Robbins 1:00:23 Yeah, it's a hot issue.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:24 Yeah. Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:26 So let's say, let's say you criticize me, you know-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:29 Yeah

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:29 ... for, you know, having a tummy and-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:32 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:32 ... but you're really worried about my health and weight.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:34 Such a sweet tummy.

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:35 Right. Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:35 Okay. Uh, let's see. [clears throat] John, uh, I need to talk to you about something.

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:45 All right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:45 You know, I know that you love sitting and reading your books.

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:51 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:51 Especially your mathematic books-

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:53 Yeah. Right

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:54 ... which I cannot understand one page of.

Dr. John Gottman 1:00:58 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:00:58 But honey, I'm- You know, you really, really, really should go to the gym more often. You really should. You're only going to the gym, like, once a month. That's not gonna do anything for your body. That's, I mean, you know, your body's starting to get a little kind of flabby or something. I mean, just that belly is going out further and further.

Dr. John Gottman 1:01:27 Well, I think I'm fine.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:01:32 You think you're fine?

Dr. John Gottman 1:01:34 Yeah, just... Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:01:35 Honey, the thing that I'm worried about, and this is true for both of us, is that we're both getting older, right? And, you know, you've read all the newspaper articles about being fit really adds years to your life, being healthy. Exercising is one of the best things you can do. It's-

Dr. John Gottman 1:01:58 I just read this article about a guy who's a long-distance runner, and he had a heart attack while he was running, and he was 40 years old.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:06 But-

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:06 So I don't think, I don't think exercise is such a great thing.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:09 But honey, what they-

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:09 And a lot of these athletes are pretty stupid-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:12 Oh, sweetie

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:12 ... you know.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:13 What they found is that there was a heart defect there.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:18 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:18 It wasn't the running that caused it. It was the heart defect. But-

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:23 You don't think he overdid it?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:24 No, I don't think so. But if you don't exercise, I'm really afraid that you may suffer a heart attack, right?

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:35 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:36 I mean, I don't wanna lose you. I do not wanna lose you.

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:42 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:42 And so I'm wondering, how can I support you going to the gym more often, or does that feel too controlling?

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:53 No, I think, uh, what if we went together?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:02:56 Love it. Would you be willing to make the time?

Dr. John Gottman 1:02:59 Yeah, if I can swim.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:02 Sure.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:02 I like to swim.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:03 Swimming is great.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:05 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:05 Swimming is wonderful.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:06 I haven't been in a long time.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:07 You haven't?

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:08 No.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:08 You wanna do it again?

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:10 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:11 Well, yay.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:12 All right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:13 That would be terrific.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:14 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:14 Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:15 All right. I'll work on it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:15 Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:16 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:19 How do you tell someone that it's not that you're worried about 'em, it's that you're losing interest in them?

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:25 Oh, okay. That's a good one.

Mel Robbins 1:03:27 [laughs] 'Cause I think the exercise thing is a big one.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:32 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:32 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:33 And-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:34 I know

Mel Robbins 1:03:34 ... you know, like, really taking care of yourself, and yes, there's the, "I'm afraid something's gonna happen," but it's also, like, I actually am pulling away from you because I'm not proud to be with you, or I am losing my attraction to you.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:50 Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:03:53 I have something I wanna talk to you about that is super sensitive.

Dr. John Gottman 1:03:59 Uh-oh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:00 I know.

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:00 Let me get my notebook.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:01 You better get your notebook.

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:02 All right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:03 And let me preface it, let me preface it by saying I adore you. I love you so, so, so much.

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:13 That's nice to hear.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:14 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:16 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:16 But-

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:17 Oh, there's a but.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:18 Yep, here comes the sensitive part. I don't know exactly what's happening, but as you've been gaining weight-

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:28 Hmm

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:30 ... becoming more of a sphere instead of a triangle-

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:37 [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:39 ... I don't know, my libido is going down. My sexual interest is declining.

Dr. John Gottman 1:04:48 Oh, that sucks.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:04:50 Well, it does because I love you, and I really, really want to express that physically to you. But at the same time, I really, really loved it when you were working out, and s- I could feel the muscles in your back, in your shoulders, your arms. It, it felt really wonderful.

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:15 So I wrote down, "Lose weight and get more sex."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:20 That's a possibility.

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:21 All right. Okay.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:22 What do you think?

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:23 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:23 Would you like that?

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:25 I'd like-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:25 Would you like-

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:25 I'd like more s-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:27 ... to get more sex?

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:27 I'd like, I'd like more sex.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:27 Because if about 20 pounds melted away-

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:34 Yeah

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:34 ... I betcha my sexual interest would go up.

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:37 I could go, I could get that zip down.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:40 Great idea.

Dr. John Gottman 1:05:41 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:42 Okay. Ta-da.

Mel Robbins 1:05:45 [laughs] Oh my God. I'm sorry I'm laughing, but I, you two are adorable, and-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:50 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:05:51 ... and we have all been in a relationship like that. The fourth horseman that's gonna destroy your relationship potentially-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:05:59 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:05:59 ... is stonewalling.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:06:00 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:06:00 We've talked a little bit about it, but just so we're clear about what it is.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:06:04 Okay.

Dr. John Gottman 1:06:06 Well, you know, we actually didn't understand it when we first saw it, and we brought men back in and said, "What was going through your mind right there?" And so we got this sort of internal monologue that guys were going through, and they really were saying, "This is hopeless. I just gotta, I gotta endure this. I gotta get through this. And, you know, don't say anything 'cause whatever you say, you're gonna make it worse. And, you know, I'm just gonna go get a, get a beer and watch the game, you know, and not think about this. Let me out of here." That's what they were thinking, you know? And it was sad, you know? It was really like, "I'm overwhelmed, you know? I'm in a war zone." [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:07:01 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 1:07:01 You know? And there, there aren't any shelters.

Mel Robbins 1:07:04 Hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 1:07:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:07:07 Can you give us a example of what this sort of sounds like in a relationship?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:13 Uh-

Mel Robbins 1:07:13 When-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:14 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:07:14 ... one-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:15 Sure

Mel Robbins 1:07:15 ... when, you know, the man g- or typically the guy, but often it can be the, the, the woman.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:20 Can be.

Mel Robbins 1:07:20 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:21 Yeah. 15% of the time it was a woman stonewalling.

Mel Robbins 1:07:25 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:07:26 Well, let's, let's do you stonewalling.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:29 Okay.

Mel Robbins 1:07:29 Okay?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:07:30 Uh, so I don't understand why you haven't paid the bills. I mean, the bills have gotta be paid. Why aren't you paying the bills, man? They're sitting there on the table.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:43 This is, this is not a big deal. I, you know, just stop-

Mel Robbins 1:07:45 It is

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:07:46 ... I don't wanna talk about this.

Mel Robbins 1:07:47 John, it's a huge deal. You're gonna ruin our credit if you don't pay the bills. Would you please pay the bills? So what are you doing now? You're pretending I don't exist? You're just blocking me out? Honey, pay the frigging bills. What's the big deal? God. There. That-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:19 That's what it looks like

Mel Robbins 1:08:21 ... is perfect. 'Cause we've all seen it-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:22 Yep

Mel Robbins 1:08:22 ... and experienced it.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:08:23 And if you were listening and not watching this episode, as Julie was, you know, basically telling him what to do and criticizing him, and then the huff at the end is contempt.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:08:35 That huh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:36 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:08:37 Right?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:37 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:08:38 That exclamation point of huh. Uh, you, John, crossed your arms and looked down and looked away, and it is this act of like, "There's nothing to do. I just need to endure this until she shuts up."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:52 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:08:53 And that's the only option here.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:08:55 Yeah. And, and also, if I say anything, it'll get worse.

Mel Robbins 1:09:02 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:02 It's bad now, but if I say anything, it- I'll make it worse.

Mel Robbins 1:09:05 How the heck do you repair something like that if you're the stonewaller and you've got somebody who's critical of you?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:13 Okay.

Mel Robbins 1:09:13 Like, can the stonewaller, uh... Like, can you teach a stonewaller to repair? 'Cause a stonewaller does not trust that it's gonna get better if I say anything.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:22 Right. Okay. Don't forget-

Mel Robbins 1:09:24 Yes

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:24 ... that what goes along with stonewalling is a heart rate over 100 beats a minute-

Mel Robbins 1:09:31 Oh, 'cause it's true

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:32 ... while you're flooded.

Mel Robbins 1:09:32 It looks like you're calm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:34 Yes.

Mel Robbins 1:09:35 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:35 It does, but because John and Bob had their couples hooked up to physiology that, that measured heart rate, we saw those heart rates, like, through the ceiling, 140, 150, and so on.

Mel Robbins 1:09:53 Mm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:09:53 10 seconds before they started stonewalling, their heart rate-

Mel Robbins 1:09:56 I never, ever, ever looked at stonewalling as somebody who's panicked and overwhelmed.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:04 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:10:05 I've always seen this as a power play-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:08 Yes

Mel Robbins 1:10:08 ... that you're-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:10 Yes

Mel Robbins 1:10:10 ... denying me attention, and you are trying to just block me out as a way to control me.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:18 Exactly.

Mel Robbins 1:10:20 And that is wrong. [laughs]

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:22 Stonewalling is an attempt to self-soothe.

Mel Robbins 1:10:25 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:25 Wow.

Mel Robbins 1:10:25 Going inside. Okay, d- she can't touch me when I watch the game, so the game starts in 10 minutes. I'm gonna go watch the game.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:35 I'll have a beer. I'll calm down.

Mel Robbins 1:10:37 Yep.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:38 And-

Mel Robbins 1:10:38 So let me tell you-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:39 ... I can't do anything now. Well...

Mel Robbins 1:10:41 Yeah. Let me tell you what the antidote is.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:10:44 Okay.

Mel Robbins 1:10:44 It's not saying something, exactly. The only antidote is to do something to calm your physiology down. Okay, so we've seen the antidote. It is you tell your partner you need to take a break, that you're flooded. You need to take a break, and you tell your partner when you will come back to continue the conversation. And typically, the minimum a break takes is 20 to 30 minutes. The most would be 24 hours.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:11:26 Okay.

Mel Robbins 1:11:26 What do you do during the break? You do not think about the fight. Because if you keep thinking about the fight and, "Oh, I should say this when I go back," you'll stay flooded-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:11:39 Hm

Mel Robbins 1:11:39 ... because you're still hooked into the fight. That is elevating your heart rate. You need to do something else like reading a book, reading a magazine, watching TV, playing with the puppy, even going for a run is fine. Uh, taking a walk, doing your email, something that takes your mind off the fight-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:12:05 Okay

Mel Robbins 1:12:05 ... so that those stress hormones can metabolize out of your body, you see.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:12:13 So when you feel yourse-

Mel Robbins 1:12:14 And it's, and it's especially hard for guys to do this.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:12:16 I would imagine.

Mel Robbins 1:12:17 Because, uh, you know, Bob Levenson did a study of startle. You know, you have a gun, a blank gun go off behind somebody.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:12:26 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:12:27 Women feel fear. Men feel a desire to get even.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:12:35 [laughs] Get angry.

Mel Robbins 1:12:37 Get angry, get even with the experimenter. They feel, you know, ang- rage about having been startled, and so that maintains the physiological arousal. And it was probably adaptive in our, you know, ancestors' time to stay physiologically aroused when you were hunting or protecting the tribe. But during a conversation with your lover, it, it's not helpful to stay physiologically aroused. It's counterproductive. Can't listen, right? So you, so it's a challenge for men during the break to really distract themselves.

Dr. John Gottman 1:13:16 And do something entirely different

Mel Robbins 1:13:18 But the big breakthrough is to utter the words, "I am emotionally shut down," or, "I'm emotionally flooded"-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:13:28 I'm flooded

Mel Robbins 1:13:29 ... or, "I'm flooded right now."

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:13:29 Or just, "I'm flooded. I'm flooded."

Mel Robbins 1:13:31 I'm flooded.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:13:32 I need to take a break. And, you know, the good thing about saying, "I'll be back in 30 minutes," is that a lot of people, when you say, "I'm gonna go take a break," and they go, the other person feels rejected, thinks, "Oh, great. We're never gonna get back to this topic. We're never gonna solve this. We're never gonna talk about it."

Dr. John Gottman 1:13:59 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:13:59 So saying, "Let's come back in a half an hour when I'm calmer, and let's try again," makes a huge difference.

Mel Robbins 1:14:09 It makes a lot of sense. Why is... Can we just move on? Why is that one of the biggest mistakes that you can make after a blow-up?

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:19 Flooding, you mean?

Dr. John Gottman 1:14:20 Oh, can we just move on?

Mel Robbins 1:14:20 Just saying that, "Can we just move on?"

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:22 Oh.

Dr. John Gottman 1:14:23 Let's not talk about this anymore.

Mel Robbins 1:14:24 Let's not talk about this. Oh, God, that's so terrible.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:27 Well, the problem in the relationship when you say, "Let's just not talk about this anymore," it's another way of saying, "Whatever you're thinking isn't important, so let's just drop it. You're not important."

Mel Robbins 1:14:44 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:45 What a message, right? It's a terrible message.

Mel Robbins 1:14:50 It's contempt.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:51 So that's why you don't do it. [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:14:52 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:53 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:14:54 That's, I, the, I, that is... You're absolutely right.

Dr. John Gottman 1:14:57 And then there's a loss of trust-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:14:59 Right

Dr. John Gottman 1:15:00 ... which is really damaging to the relationship.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:15:03 Right.

Dr. John Gottman 1:15:03 I can't trust you to really keep your promises.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:15:07 Or be there for me.

Dr. John Gottman 1:15:09 Or be there for me.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:15:10 Yeah.

Dr. John Gottman 1:15:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:15:11 Let's talk about turning toward each other.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:15:13 Oh, so important. So important.

Dr. John Gottman 1:15:17 So that's something that, that one of my graduate students, Janice Driver, really noticed in the apartment lab. There'd be these small moments when one person would try to get their partner's attention or interest or have a conversation or show them something they were reading, and the cameras turned to the other person. And we recorded the response, and they either responded, you know, or, you know, turned toward, we called it, or they didn't respond at all, turning away, or they responded irritably, turning against. And what Jannie discovered was that when you look back at the couples who divorced six years earlier, their average percent of turning toward their partner's bids for connection was 33%, and the couples who are still married, look six years earlier, their average is 86% -

Mel Robbins 1:16:12 Wow

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:13 ... rather than 33%.

Mel Robbins 1:16:14 Mm-hmm.

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:14 So these small moments are really important. Plus, she also discovered the secret to having a sense of humor during conflict was having a lot of history of turning toward-

Mel Robbins 1:16:26 Oh

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:27 ... building an emotional bank account of connecting.

Mel Robbins 1:16:30 Right.

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:31 Then people had a sense of humor about themselves during conflict.

Mel Robbins 1:16:34 I wanna make sure that as you were listening to John say that, that you got the very helpful distinction of the three things that people do in those micro-moments, and obviously, what we wanna learn to do-

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:48 Right

Mel Robbins 1:16:48 ... is turn toward one another.

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:50 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:16:51 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:16:51 But the thing that a lot of people do is you either turn away or you turn against.

Dr. John Gottman 1:16:57 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:16:58 Right.

Mel Robbins 1:16:58 And I think it's a very useful tool to ask yourself, "Am I turning against them when they're trying to hold my hand or engage in a conversation or tell about their day? Am I turning away from them?"

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:17:11 So what turning away means, a lot of people misinterpret that. They think it means, oh, you turn your body away.

Mel Robbins 1:17:18 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:17:18 No, it doesn't at all. It means you completely ignore what they've said.

Mel Robbins 1:17:25 Oh.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:17:26 You ignore it. So let's say I'm reading a book, and John calls to me from the kitchen, "Julie." I ignore him. I keep reading the book. He says again, "Honey, do you know where the big fork is?" I ignore him as if he never said anything. That's turning away.

Mel Robbins 1:17:52 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:17:53 Turning against would be, "Would you stop interrupting me? I'm trying to read."

Mel Robbins 1:17:59 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:18:01 That's the hostility, you see, that comes in turning against.

Mel Robbins 1:18:07 Wow.

Dr. John Gottman 1:18:07 They're really small moments, but the probability that a person will rebid-

Mel Robbins 1:18:15 Hmm

Dr. John Gottman 1:18:15 ... after their partner's turned away is 22%.

Mel Robbins 1:18:19 Wow.

Dr. John Gottman 1:18:20 So only 22% of the time do they say, "Honey, where's the fork?" Or, you know, "Listen to this." They, they kinda crumple a little bit when their partner turns away.

Mel Robbins 1:18:32 Well, of course.

Dr. John Gottman 1:18:33 Yeah.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:18:34 You know what it reminds me of? You know what a sea anemone looks like. You know, it's this little circle of a, of a being in the water, in the ocean, that has little tiny fingers. And when it's relaxed, all those fingers are spread out towards the center of this little circle.

Mel Robbins 1:18:54 Yeah, like if you saw the movie Finding Nemo, all the baby-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:18:58 Exactly

Mel Robbins 1:18:58 ... Nemos are in one.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:18:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:18:59 Yes.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:18:59 Yeah, exactly. Okay. So if you poke that sea anemone gently, all those fingers pull back.

Mel Robbins 1:19:08 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:19:10 And then very slowly, it'll start stretching, stretching, stretching, stretching again- Let's say you poke again, that sea anemone is not gonna stretch out its fingers. It's gonna hide.

Dr. John Gottman 1:19:26 Hmm.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:19:27 That's what happens.

Dr. John Gottman 1:19:28 Good image.

Mel Robbins 1:19:29 That makes a ton of sense. And I would just love to have you speak directly to the person who's been with us this whole time, because there's a lot that you have shared. There are so many tools and frameworks, things that you can put to use right now, and also things that you can really reflect on in yourself, 'cause you can't change them.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:19:50 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:19:51 You can use these tools to connect more deeply and to strengthen your relationship, but ultimately, you can't change 'em.

Dr. John Gottman 1:19:59 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:20:00 But a lot of what has happened for me with your work is it's made me understand the things that I'm doing that I need to change that can strengthen the relationship-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:20:13 Mm-hmm

Mel Robbins 1:20:14 ... and the things that I can proactively do differently that build better connection. And so I'd love to have you just speak to the person directly, and if they take everything to heart, but they wanna do one thing-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:20:30 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:20:31 ... right after they finish listening-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:20:34 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:20:34 ... what's the most important action to take today?

Dr. John Gottman 1:20:37 Well, I would say that when you realize conflict has a goal, which is mutual understanding, and what you need to do is postpone persuasion and problem-solving until you can really hear what your partner is saying, what your partner feels, what your partner needs, what your partner's hopes are, and get that notebook out.

Mel Robbins 1:21:05 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 1:21:05 Slowly open it up.

Mel Robbins 1:21:07 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 1:21:07 Slowly get your pen out and take notes and listen. Because when you do that, you realize your partner's not your adversary. Your partner is your ally at solving a problem together. You're, you can be a team that together is more powerful than either person individually, and you solve that problem together. So buy a little notebook and a pen-

Mel Robbins 1:21:33 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 1:21:34 ... and take notes. Slowly get out your pen so you can wait at least two beats before you respond.

Mel Robbins 1:21:43 Well, I cannot wait to listen to this again with my husband, Chris.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:21:47 [laughs] Aw.

Mel Robbins 1:21:47 Maybe it's what we'll do on our, to celebrate our 30th wedding anniversary.

Dr. John Gottman 1:21:51 Oh.

Mel Robbins 1:21:51 And I now know what I'm gonna get him. I'm gonna get him a little notebook.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:21:55 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:21:55 Right? [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 1:21:56 Right.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:21:57 That's a great idea.

Mel Robbins 1:21:58 And you know, one of the other-

Dr. John Gottman 1:21:59 And a pen.

Mel Robbins 1:22:00 And a pen, and a pen. And one of the other things that I really loved about being with you two is that you reminded me of one of my favorite pieces of advice and truths about relationships that really go the distance and are satisfying for both people. And I first heard this from James Sexton, but it's just this idea that you're my favorite person.

Dr. John Gottman 1:22:24 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:22:25 And being in the presence of the two of you and experiencing in person your warmth towards each other, your fondness towards each other, your kindness towards one another, the fun that you have as you are sitting together, it is the little things that are available and right in front of us. And I am so excited to get home to Chris tonight in southern Vermont-

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:22:58 [laughs] Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:22:58 ... because I feel rejuvenated in terms of just that, that, what, that energy between you two, the warmth.

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:06 You know, Helen Fisher, uh, taught us that being in love has no shelf life. You can be in love for 35 years, 40 years, 50 years.

Mel Robbins 1:23:18 Forever.

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:18 And we are, you know? And-

Mel Robbins 1:23:20 [laughs]

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:20 ... uh, you know, I feel enormous joy in the morning when Julie's in my arms.

Mel Robbins 1:23:26 Aw.

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:27 Every morning.

Mel Robbins 1:23:28 Aw. You two are gonna make me cry.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:23:30 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:23:30 The Gottmans, everybody. Thank you. Thank you.

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:34 Thank you, Mel.

Mel Robbins 1:23:34 Thank you.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:23:34 Thank you, Mel.

Mel Robbins 1:23:36 I just love you two.

Dr. Julie Schwartz Gottman 1:23:37 Aw.

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:38 [laughs] Thank you.

Mel Robbins 1:23:38 Thank you.

Dr. John Gottman 1:23:39 [laughs]

Mel Robbins 1:23:40 And thank you. You know, I told you at the beginning of this episode you would fall in love with the Gottmans, and didn't you? I mean, how could you not? I am so excited for everything that's gonna happen in your relationships and in your life based on what you just learned. Because the truth is you deserve love. You deserve connection. You deserve respect and kindness, and now you have research-backed tools from the world-renowned Gottmans to use and to share for the rest of your life. How cool is that? And in case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And the thing that's gonna make your life better is stronger and more loving relationships. And now you have everything you need to know, do, and say to create them. So go do it. All righty, I'll see you in the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. All righty, thank you for watching all the way to the end here on YouTube. The next video that you wanna check out, you're gonna love this one too, is this one.