Skip to content
The Mel Robbins PodcastThe Mel Robbins Podcast

The Manipulation Expert: How to Spot Hidden Manipulators & Take Your Power Back

In today’s episode, you’ll learn the hidden signs of a manipulative, toxic person from the #1 researcher in the world on dark personalities, Dr. Leanne ten Brinke, PhD. She is here to teach you how to spot the poisonous people that are hidden in plain sight around you - in your family, your community, and at work. And, she’s giving you the science-backed guide to understand poisonous people: how they operate, how to spot the patterns early, and what to do when you realize you’re dealing with one. Dr. ten Brinke is a professor at the University of British Columbia, where she directs the Truth and Trust Lab and has spent nearly two decades studying trust, deception, manipulation, and dark personality traits. She wants to make one thing perfectly clear: most people are good. But one poisonous person can create an enormous amount of stress, confusion, and pain. This episode will help you recognize the pattern, trust what you’re seeing, neutralize their behavior, and know exactly what to do when you’re around them. In this episode, you’ll learn: -How to spot dark personality traits of narcissism, psychopathy, Machiavellianism, and sadism in daily life -The #1 sign you’re being manipulated -What gaslighting is, what it is not, and what to do when you’re being gaslit -Why many toxic people seem charming at first -How gossip can reveal a manipulative personality at work -The simple ways to become more strategic instead of more emotional when dealing with difficult people After listening, you will know exactly what to do to spot toxic behavior, handle manipulative people, and take back your peace and power. For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/episode-416/ Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themelrobbinspodcast I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode. In this episode: 00:00 Meet the Guest 02:31 Why Toxic People Are So Harmful 09:10 The Four “Dark Personality” Traits 12:55 Hidden Signs of a Sociopath: What to Look For 21:26 What a Machiavellian Personality Looks Like 31:45 The Easiest Way To Spot A Narcissist in Your Life 38:03 How to Spot a Sadist and What To Do 44:14 How to Tell if Someone is a Psychopath or Just a Bad Person 45:15 Spot A Toxic Person in 10 Seconds 49:21 Why People With Toxic Traits Are Often in Powerful Positions 50:42 What Is Gaslighting And How To Spot It 53:09 Why Narcissists and Toxic People Don't Change 59:31 How to Protect Your Peace & Take Back Your Power Verizon: verizon.com — Follow Mel: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melrobbins/ TikTok: http://tiktok.com/@melrobbins Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/melrobbins LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/melrobbins Website: http://melrobbins.com​ — Sign up for Mel’s newsletter: https://melrob.co/sign-up-newsletter A note from Mel to you, twice a week, sharing simple, practical ways to build the life you want. — Subscribe to Mel’s channel here: https://www.youtube.com/melrobbins​?sub_confirmation=1 — Listen to The Mel Robbins Podcast 🎧 New episodes drop every Monday & Thursday! https://melrob.co/spotify https://melrob.co/applepodcasts https://melrob.co/amazonmusic — Looking for Mel’s books on Amazon? Find them here: The Let Them Theory: https://amzn.to/3IQ21Oe The Let Them Theory Audiobook: https://amzn.to/413SObp The High 5 Habit: https://amzn.to/3fMvfPQ The 5 Second Rule: https://amzn.to/4l54fah

Mel RobbinshostDr. Leanne ten Brinkeguest
Jul 20, 20261h 3mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:31

    Meet the Guest

    1. MR

      Have you noticed that nowadays people just throw words around like, "Oh, this person's toxic. That person's a narcissist. This person's a psychopath," as if it's nothing. But these words do mean something very specific. Dr. Leanne Brink is here to teach you and me how to spot a truly toxic person, and what to look for and what to do.

    2. LB

      People with very little training can detect, with some kernel of truth, the extent to which someone has psychopathic personality traits. Just, like, five seconds.

    3. MR

      Five seconds?

    4. LB

      Five seconds.

    5. MR

      Dr. Leanne ten Brinke. She runs the Truth and Trust Lab at the University of British Columbia, where she is a professor of forensic psychology. She's spent two decades studying manipulators, chronic liars, and dark personalities.

    6. LB

      We've got psychopathy, narcissism, Machiavellianism, and sadism.

    7. MR

      What are you looking for?

    8. LB

      They're incredibly manipulative, and they often come across as very superficially charming. What you see is not necessarily what you get, right? Friendly-looking demeanor on the outside, um, masking that hostility and anger underneath.

    9. MR

      What she calls poisonous people aren't just the subjects of true crime investigation. They're in boardrooms. They're in public office. You might encounter them in your living room or at work. She'll also reveal a simple way to know if you're being manipulated, and if you have to communicate with somebody with a dark personality, the one rule you have to follow. Can a person with a dark personality change?

    10. LB

      So...

    11. MR

      Hey, it's Mel. And before we jump into this extraordinary episode, my team was showing me this. 51% of you who watch The Mel Robbins Podcast here on YouTube are not subscribers. If that subscribe button is lit up, it means you're not subscribed. Would you please do me a favor and hit the subscribe button? My goal is to get that number to 40%. I know you love supporting people who support you, and that's the best way to support me and the team here. Thank you in advance for hitting subscribe. I truly appreciate it. And trust me, you're gonna be so happy you're here, 'cause this conversation is extraordinary. Please help me welcome Dr. Leanne ten Brinke to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

    12. LB

      Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

    13. MR

      I am so excited that you flew in all the way from British Columbia.

    14. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      Because I am fascinated by your field of expertise and your research, and our team devoured your bestselling book, Poisonous People.

  2. 2:31 – 9:10

    Why Toxic People Are So Harmful

    1. MR

      And what I'd love to have you do is, if the person listening applies everything that you're about to teach us from your studies of deception and dark personalities, and they apply it starting today, what will change?

    2. LB

      I think they learn how to reduce one of the biggest stressors in all of our lives. Because dark personalities, and I'm not talking about, like, the super extreme clinical levels here necessarily, people who are just, like, consistently callous and manipulative in our lives. And so you can probab- you know, everyone has someone in their lives that kind of might be popping into their head right now, right? So, like, the manipulative sister-in-law, the, like, the boss at work who just, like, needs all the attention and takes all the credit for your work, um, the, you know, callous mother-in-law. I get a lot of callous mother-in-laws- [laughs]

    3. MR

      Really?

    4. LB

      ... in the comments. And it's just like, these are people who cause us incredible amounts of stress. They divide us. They make us think that everyone is terrible, and, when that's not the case. Um, and you know, they erode norms of pi- polite conduct. They enshrine competition, where cooperation would be so much better for everybody. Basically, like, this one bad apple can really ruin the barrel, and I think today I'm hoping to give people some tools to stop that rot.

    5. MR

      Oh, my gosh. You know what was amazing about as you were talking? Is it probably happened for you as you were listening to Dr. ten Brinke, but I started to have situations and people pop into my mind.

    6. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. MR

      And one of the things that I wondered almost immediately-

    8. LB

      Mm-hmm

    9. MR

      ... because as you talked about, these are the huge source of stress. You talked about callous, manipulative. They divide us.

    10. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MR

      They make you think other people are terrible.

    12. LB

      Yeah.

    13. MR

      They, they stir up controversy and competition.

    14. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. MR

      Is it always someone who's doing it overtly, or would this apply to somebody who's maybe a little bit more victim-y and softer in their approach? Like, as we kinda... 'Cause I want, I want to start the conversation by you having people in your mind that cause you stress-

    16. LB

      Mm-hmm

    17. MR

      ... so that you can think specifically about how to apply this.

    18. LB

      Yeah, so, you know, we define dark personalities as, you know, the, the overlap between kind of specific dark personalities, which I'm sure we'll get into, is this kind of nexus of, like, callous, manipulative, and hostile. Um, and so, and they, they certainly know what they're doing. So one of the questions I often get is, like, "You know, um, do these people realize that they are this way?"

    19. MR

      Hmm.

    20. LB

      Right? Um, and the answer is yes, because we often measure these personality traits with, like, a self-report. We ask them, you know, "Is this characteristic of you?" And they'll say, "Yeah. [laughs] That sounds like me. Like, I don't have any remorse. I am a born leader. I am okay manipulating other people to get my way, and I don't feel bad about it." And so it's not like they don't realize that they are this way, but they don't necessarily care, or they're not, like, concerned about that impact on other people, right? That's that callous piece. So that combination of manipulativeness and callousness, I'm gonna take advantage of you, I'm gonna tell lies, and then I don't really worry about the consequences or how that makes you feel.

    21. MR

      Got it. I'm so happy that you just defined callous, 'cause that was gonna be my next question.

    22. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      So manipulative is my behavior does impact you, and callous means I don't really care that it does.

    24. LB

      Yeah.

    25. MR

      So what does a poisonous person look like in day-to-day life?

    26. LB

      So a per- poisonous person has elevated levels of callousness, manipulativeness, and hostility toward other people. That's kind of the, the core of dark personality traits.

    27. MR

      Okay.

    28. LB

      Yeah. And so, like, if you're tr- trying to think of, you know, in your life, what does that person look like?

    29. MR

      Yes.

    30. LB

      Right? So they might be, um, the boss who is, like, consistently self-focused and takes advantage of all of the people that work underneath them, takes credit for their work, uh, manipulates them perhaps into doing work that is not part of their job description, and then, you know, is like, "Oh, this is all about me," right?

  3. 9:10 – 12:55

    The Four “Dark Personality” Traits

    1. MR

      into this, could you just list quickly for the person who's listening right now, what are the four kinds of dark personalities that we're gonna dig into in detail?

    2. LB

      So personality psychologists talk about four different but overlapping-

    3. MR

      Okay

    4. LB

      ... traits as the dark tetrad-

    5. MR

      Okay

    6. LB

      ... of personality traits. So we've got-

    7. MR

      Does tetrad mean four?

    8. LB

      It sure does.

    9. MR

      Okay.

    10. LB

      Yeah.

    11. MR

      [laughs] I'm learning a lot today.

    12. LB

      You know, we probably could've come-

    13. MR

      You're using some big words, Dr. ten Brinke.

    14. LB

      We probably could've come up with, like, a flashier-

    15. MR

      Well, I would've thought it would've been a quad if it was four.

    16. LB

      Look-

    17. MR

      So tetrad threw me off. [laughs]

    18. LB

      But anyway, that's what we, [laughs] that's what we've gone with. Um, we've got psychopathy.

    19. MR

      Psychopathy, okay.

    20. LB

      Mm-hmm. Narcissism.

    21. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    22. LB

      Machiavellianism.

    23. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    24. LB

      And sadism.

    25. MR

      So these are the four dark personality types, but as you've already said, as we're digging into each one so we can spot trends-

    26. LB

      Mm-hmm

    27. MR

      ... there may be some overlap.

    28. LB

      Yes.

    29. MR

      Okay.

    30. LB

      Absolutely. So, like, uh, that question that I sometimes get, you know, is this person a narcissist or a psychopath, that also suggests that they're, like, completely separate things, right? And when we get into the definitions, you'll notice that there's, there's a reasonable amount of overlap.

  4. 12:55 – 21:26

    Hidden Signs of a Sociopath: What to Look For

    1. MR

      G- let's start with sociopath, because you hear that word thrown around a lot. What actually is a sociopath, Dr. ten Brinke, and how do you spot one?

    2. LB

      So people with high levels of psychopathy, I've got a visual here.

    3. MR

      You do? Okay, good.

    4. LB

      Yeah. Okay. Check this out.

    5. MR

      And I wanna tell the person who's listening what it is, so you don't feel like you're left out. It is a, uh, illustration of a person who b- who is wearing a mask, and behind the mask you can see that they're either angry, callous, and manipulative, but the mask that they're wearing has a big, smiley, kinda friendly face.

    6. LB

      Mm-hmm. So, uh, psychopathy is actually a, a constellation of traits. It's not just one thing. Um, but it's a set of traits that when you kinda put them together creates psychopathy. Um, I think this illustration is, um, is a good kind of depiction of the mask of sanity. So one of the early researchers who studied, uh, psychopathy used this phrase to describe people with high levels of psychopathy, and it's because they, you know, they're incredibly manipulative, and they often come across as very superficially charming.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. LB

      And so, like, what you see is not necessarily what you get, right? And so you can see this kind of, you know, friendly looking demeanor on the outside, um, masking that hostility and anger underneath. So when I talk about psychopathy being, you know, a constellation-

    9. MR

      Yeah

    10. LB

      ... of traits, that means that, um, you know, it's more than just one thing. It all comes together to form psychopathy. One way to chop up those behaviors, uh, or those constituent parts of psychopathy, has a relatively long history with Dr. Bob Hare, and he broadly mapped those pieces onto being callous, manipulative, impulsive, and antisocial. And so we can go through each of those-

    11. MR

      Yes, let's

    12. LB

      ... if that would be helpful.

    13. MR

      What do you...

    14. LB

      Okay.

    15. MR

      Like, 'cause I'm like, "Oh."

    16. LB

      [laughs]

    17. MR

      Okay. Well, so we hear-

    18. LB

      Yeah, let's dig in

    19. MR

      ... callous, manipulative.

    20. LB

      Yeah.

    21. MR

      But you also said antisocial.

    22. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. MR

      And what was the other one?

    24. LB

      An- impulsive.

    25. MR

      Impulsive. What's the impulsivity about?

    26. LB

      The impulsivity is that, you know, they tend to respond to risk differently than other people, so they don't do a lot of thinking before they're acting. They tend to be pretty reckless-

    27. MR

      Hmm

    28. LB

      ... and irresponsible. Um, this might lead to them kind of having a, what we call a parasitic lifestyle, like they're mooching off of other people 'cause they're not putting in the, like, consistent work and planning of, you know, planning out a career, um, you know, a family, all these things that go into life, right? Um, so that's the impulsivity bit. And then antisocial is a proneness to breaking the rules, and this, you know, we've often studied psychopathy in the context of, um, you know, criminal justice settings. And so this could be legal rules, right, that they're breaking, but it doesn't have to be that. It can be kind of social norms of, uh, kindness or politeness or fairness. It can also be, like, workplace conduct, right? Like, we've got certain rules in the workplace, and they are, you know, kinda blatantly disregarding-

    29. MR

      Hmm

    30. LB

      ... those kinds of things. So putting all those things together, callous, manipulative, antisocial, impulsive, that's what is the kinda combination that makes up psychopathy.

  5. 21:26 – 31:45

    What a Machiavellian Personality Looks Like

    1. MR

      What is Machiavellianism? Did I say that right?

    2. LB

      Yes, you did.

    3. MR

      Okay.

    4. LB

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      It's a big word.

    6. LB

      I kn- it's so many syllables. Um, so Machiavellianism is a tendency to desire status and control, like, they really wanna be in charge.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. LB

      They wanna be in power. They want maybe fame or money, whatever that is. Um, and they have a really amoral approach to manipulation, meaning, like, they're very willing to kiss someone's butt to get ahead, but they're also just as willing to, like, spread rumors or tell lies to do that. And they're not particularly bothered. They're just like, "What do I need to get, you know, to the top of the food chain here?" And they're willing to do that.

    9. MR

      So this is somebody who'll step on your head or spread lies about you-

    10. LB

      Exactly

    11. MR

      ... in order to get what they want?

    12. LB

      Yeah, totally.

    13. MR

      Here-

    14. LB

      Oh, yeah

    15. MR

      ... I know we have a visual. Let's pull this sucker up.

    16. LB

      Yes, we do have a visual. Okay. So this one, um, we got the chess pieces, right? So he's knocking you off the board-

    17. MR

      Yes

    18. LB

      ... right? [laughs] So you're in the way, knocking you off the board. I think, you know, what this depicts is essentially this very strategic social style. So, like, where we talked about psychopathy having that kind of impulsive nature-

    19. MR

      Hmm

    20. LB

      ... right? This is different. This is like they're willing to, like, kinda plan things out. They're like, "Oh, Mel told me something kind of embarrassing. I'm gonna, like, put that in my back pocket, and I'll bring that back up later whenever I kind of [laughs] need to turn the screws on her," or something like that.

    21. MR

      Is this the kinda person where, I think we've all had that experience where you have this sense that somebody is turning it on and showing up when they need something-

    22. LB

      Mm-hmm

    23. MR

      ... and the second that they have gotten what they needed and used you for a particular purpose, you're gone.

    24. LB

      Yeah, absolutely. You know, I spoke to some people who especially, like, at work would see this kind of behavior, you know, very strategic, you know, pushing people out very subtly, you know, um, managing up to the boss to try to get what they want. And so, and these people tend to be very, you know, unsatisfied with their current position and al- like, always gunning for something better.

    25. MR

      Hmm.

    26. LB

      Yeah.

    27. MR

      What does this look like in a family?

    28. LB

      That's a great question. You know, usually we think about it at work.

    29. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    30. LB

      Um, but in a family, you know, again, it would be just that desire for power, control over other people, um, and probably very willing to, you know, create these divisions maybe between, you know, the, the cousins and the uncles and the whatever. Create divisions so that they come out On top.

  6. 31:45 – 38:03

    The Easiest Way To Spot A Narcissist in Your Life

    1. MR

      Let's talk about narcissism.

    2. LB

      Okay.

    3. MR

      So what is the clearest sign that you're dealing with somebody that has the dark personality of narcissism?

    4. LB

      Okay, got another visual.

    5. MR

      Narcissism.

    6. LB

      All right. Um, so here we've got, like, someone looking into a broken mirror, and you see kind of, like, the cracks in the facade here. And I think essentially what this is kinda pointing out is that what you see is not really what you get.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. LB

      Th- actually, this signifies to me kind of like a vulnerable type of narcissism where their ego is actually really easily shattered. Um, grandiose narcissism is kind of the opposite of that, where their e- ego, like, cannot be deflated, [laughs] um, even though they're getting kinda feedback that it should be. Um, but at the core of both of those kinds of narcissism is, um, entitlement-

    9. MR

      Hmm

    10. LB

      ... and exploitation of other people in order to get that, uh, what they think they deserve, which is more than most other people. Um, and I think it's really helpful to try to identify those things early if you can because that, those traits look really attractive early on, and they are the exact same traits that lead to problems a little bit later. So, um, there's this one study that I love. Um, Delroy Paulhus at UBC, he did this study of, uh, groups of students, and they were working together over the course of a term, right? And week one, they all, you know, got together in their new groups, and they made these little, like, first impressions of people. And it turns out that the people who were the most narcissistic in those groups were s- originally seen as, like, really agreeable, really well-adjusted, and very competent.

    11. MR

      Really? That was the first impression?

    12. LB

      Yeah. And it-

    13. MR

      Agreeable?

    14. LB

      Mm-hmm. And then, week seven, he asked them to do those same ratings again. Those same people were seen as arrogant braggarts, uh, who were actually really hostile and who overestimated their abilities, right?

    15. MR

      Hmm.

    16. LB

      So it's kind of like there's this sheen at the start, and it quickly wears off when you start to realize, like, the person they are putting forward is not the person they actually are.

    17. MR

      Hmm.

    18. LB

      So there tends to be a lot of self-enhancement. Um, some early cues, you know, might be, um, having l- lots of confidence, you know, coming across very confident in your, your kind of verbal and non-verbal presentation, the way you carry yourself. Um, they tend to be very concerned about their physical appearance, so putting... They tend to be quite stylish and, like, put a lot of effort into their appearance. And so it can be really hard to kind of pull apart what is the real person and what is, like, the, you know, the impression that they're trying-

    19. MR

      Hmm

    20. LB

      ... to make. Um, and sometimes it's, like, time that is going to reveal that.

    21. MR

      Uh, you know, you said that there were kind of the two camps of the narcissistic personalities, one being grandiose-

    22. LB

      Yeah

    23. MR

      ... which I think we all have somebody in mind you can think of that represents that-

    24. LB

      Yeah

    25. MR

      ... whether it's in your family or at work or, you know, in public here in the United States. Um, but vulnerable.

    26. LB

      Yeah.

    27. MR

      Because I think these can be sneakier.

    28. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. MR

      And, like, you don't realize that's what you're dealing with. And so can you talk a little bit about how the vulnerable narcissistic personality shows up? Like, what are we looking for? Because I think this one's really sneaky.

    30. LB

      Mm-hmm. Yeah. So with respect to vulnerable narcissism, like, the, the entitlement and the willingness to exploit other people is still involved, just like-

  7. 38:03 – 44:14

    How to Spot a Sadist and What To Do

    1. MR

      so interesting. What about the fourth dark personality, which is sadism? What is sadism?

    2. LB

      Sadism is essentially having an appetite for cruelty.

    3. MR

      Ooh. Oh.

    4. LB

      Yeah.

    5. MR

      Oh, I don't... Oh, really?

    6. LB

      Yeah. So it's centered around finding enjoyment in the pain of other people.

    7. MR

      Enjoyment?

    8. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MR

      Ooh. Like, oh, God. That's awful.

    10. LB

      Yeah. Oh. Yeah, so we've got a depiction of this one, too.

    11. MR

      Oh.

    12. LB

      Let's see, sadism. Um, okay. So here we've got someone who is, you know, taking some control over the situation. I might actually, like, add, like, little knives or something. [laughs]

    13. MR

      Oh my gosh, so this is a visual that Dr. ten Brinke is holding if you're listening. Uh, there's a person that's big above, and then a l- little person that's almost, like, on puppet strings being manipulated. But you're saying they take pleasure in hurting other people, and so if you were to add anything, you would literally stab the person that's at the end of the... Oh my, that's terrible.

    14. LB

      Yeah, man, they get, um, enjoyment out of pain. And what's interest- so interesting about your reaction is, like, yeah, there are those, like, very extreme versions of this. Like, when I was an undergrad, I was coding these, uh, descriptions of sexual homicides, and I was coding them for evidence of gratuitous violence and sadistic violence. And those are obviously these, like, very extreme examples, right? But there's much, there's more, like, everyday versions.

    15. MR

      Like what?

    16. LB

      So things like, um, enjoying really violent sports.

    17. MR

      Really?

    18. LB

      Uh, maybe, you know, um, enjoying, you're, you know, you're scrolling through Instagram or something and you see a video of a, a kid getting hit with a soccer ball and you find that funny. Like, little, kind of everyday sadism is what it's called. And I think we think of these people as, like, you know, monsters, right? But there is... We can probably all think of a time when we felt something sort of adjacent. So let, let me try this, try this on you. So imagine that you are thinking about, um, you know, someone really powerful, maybe a politician, a CEO of some company that you dislike, and they are walking across the stage to give a speech, and they trip and they fall. Like, how do you react?

    19. MR

      Um, you know, I guess I might be like, "You deserve that."

    20. LB

      Yeah, there might be, like, a little, a little smirk might come on your face just for a second.

    21. MR

      Oh, you know why? And you know what I would call it? Karma.

    22. LB

      Mm.

    23. MR

      She's a bitch, and she just came for you because you didn't deserve that, you know-

    24. LB

      Yeah

    25. MR

      ... title. And so I, I can see what you mean by, like, that's a-

    26. LB

      Just a tiny, tiny little piece

    27. MR

      ... example of, like, a micro-

    28. LB

      Yeah

    29. MR

      ... sadism.

    30. LB

      So this is, um, the Germans have a great word for this. It's schadenfreude, and it is taking joy in the misfortune of someone-

  8. 44:14 – 45:15

    How to Tell if Someone is a Psychopath or Just a Bad Person

    1. MR

      So Dr. ten Brinke, what are the signs that someone is being terrible just temporarily-

    2. LB

      Hmm

    3. MR

      ... versus they truly have dark personality traits?

    4. LB

      So if you're just coming into the situation, at that moment it's gonna be very difficult to discern. What you really need is time.

    5. MR

      Okay.

    6. LB

      Because someone who is, you know, has high levels of these dark traits are that way consistently across time and context, whereas someone who, you know, is stressed, is tired, is hungry, et cetera, and they do something callous or they do something cruel, that is a deviation from their normal-

    7. MR

      Hmm. Okay

    8. LB

      ... pattern of behavior. So having, like, a bigger scope of information about this person is gonna help you to see whether that's like, "That tracks," or more like, "Oh, that was a weird thing that

  9. 45:15 – 49:21

    Spot A Toxic Person in 10 Seconds

    1. LB

      they just did."

    2. MR

      You know, Dr. ten Brinke, you say that within 10 seconds, even of meeting somebody, you can spot a dark personality trait. What are you looking for?

    3. LB

      Okay. So bit of a good-news, bad-news situation here is that, good news, people with very little training can detect with some kernel of truth the extent to which someone has psychopathic personality traits or not ju- with just, like, five seconds.

    4. MR

      Five seconds?

    5. LB

      Five seconds of their behavior. It's not perfect, and it might need to be updated over time, but, but let's talk about this research. So this was work done by Scott Lilienfeld and his colleagues, and he had, uh, videos of men who were incarcerated. They were actually, um, doing this semi-structured interview with a psychologist that was part of a psychopathy assessment. And so he had, you know, trained psychologists who were doing this long interview and, like, criminal case review to try to assess these personality traits, and then he took five seconds or, like, ten-second clips of this interview and showed them to people who just had, you know, a little definition of what psychopathy was, kinda like we did earlier in this episode.

    6. MR

      And just for a refresher-

    7. LB

      Mm-hmm

    8. MR

      ... psychopathy is when you are manipulative and callous, but you also are a rule breaker and you're an impulse- and you're impulsive.

    9. LB

      Yeah.

    10. MR

      Is that right?

    11. LB

      Exactly.

    12. MR

      You're right. Okay.

    13. LB

      Yeah.

    14. MR

      Got you.

    15. LB

      So, um, gave completely untrained people these, that little definition that you just gave and five seconds of their behavior and said, you know, "Where do you think they fall on this kinda spectrum of psychopathy?" And the ratings that these untrained people gave were reasonably correlated with, like, the trained psychologists who had the benefit all, of, like, a much longer interview and this criminal case file review.

    16. MR

      Okay.

    17. LB

      So we're like, "What are they looking at," right? So, um, my colleagues and I, we reached out to, uh, Scott, and we're like, "Can we get these videos? We wanna code. We wanna know what people are looking at." And what we found was that the people with high levels of psychopathy were saying really hostile things and smiling broadly. We call it a Duchenne smile, with, you know, you get those little, um, crinkles around your eyes that go a- along with, uh, upturned lips. They were like-

    18. MR

      All I heard was douche, and I'm like-

    19. LB

      [laughs]

    20. MR

      ... "Okay, yeah. Sounds like somebody would smile-

    21. LB

      Duchenne

    22. MR

      ... as they're saying something really h- cruel."

    23. LB

      Yeah.

    24. MR

      Yes.

    25. LB

      Yeah, exactly. So we're getting this, like, extreme kind of discordance between the things they're saying and the way that they're expressing it, and people kind of naturally were like, "That's weird. I think that's associated with psychopathy." And that was a, a reasonably useful cue in this case. Um, there are other things that, that you can look for, too. So, um, high-psychopathy folks are more likely to interrupt you in conversation but refuse to be interrupted themselves. Um, they ignore those personal and professional boundaries. They might be kind of, like, oddly calm. So, like, they're not showing, like- Guilt or shame

    26. MR

      Mm

    27. LB

      ... whenever you would expect that to be the case, which, um, they have an air of moral superiority about them. They might be unusually angry, um, and they might get frustrated when they can't bait you into an argument, like if you don't take the bait. They're c- like, they're looking for that hostility, um, and if you don't give it to them, they can get frustrated. So, like, none of these are a Pinocchio's nose, right? They're not, um, there's no one behavior that's always gonna be, like, all people with high levels of psychopathy do this all of the time. Um, but if you start seeing this pattern unfolding, you know, across multiple interactions-

    28. MR

      Hmm

    29. LB

      ... that's when you can be, like, you know, increasingly confident that, that this personality trait is present.

  10. 49:21 – 50:42

    Why People With Toxic Traits Are Often in Powerful Positions

    1. MR

      Why are people with dark personality traits so often in leadership and powerful roles?

    2. LB

      This is a great question, which I've spent many, many a moon [laughs] thinking about. I- there's a, I think, a whole bunch of different reasons. The first one I think we overlook, which is just that they want it. Like, when we study narcissism, often we have people do self-report, so they're just reporting on their own personality. One of those items is, "I am a born leader." And you're like, how much do you agree with that statement? If you're like, "Yeah, I am a born leader," then you're probably also gunning for that promotion at work. Like, you're gonna be more likely to put yourself forward for-

    3. MR

      Mm-hmm

    4. LB

      ... um, a high status position. So, uh, that's one thing. Um, another is that we tend to be really blinded by their confidence. Like, we confuse confidence with competence. And so when people, you know, come across with, like, a lot of bravado, they say they can and they have done all of these incredible things, and they seem very self-assured, uh, we believe it. And whenever you're talking about people who tend to be pumping themselves up and are willing to lie to, in order to get what they want, like, that can be quite misleading.

  11. 50:42 – 53:09

    What Is Gaslighting And How To Spot It

    1. MR

      What is gaslighting, Dr. ten Brinke, and what is not gaslighting?

    2. LB

      Yeah, so I think people throw around, like, "Are you gaslighting me?" Like, even when there's, like, a little bit of confusion or, like, you interpreted a situation a little bit differently than I did.

    3. MR

      Yep.

    4. LB

      Um, or, you know, something doesn't make sense to them. And there's, there's, like, a kernel of truth in the way that we're using that, but it's, it's certainly overused. It's not just, you know, um, having a different perspective on things. It's not just a disagreement.

    5. MR

      Mm-hmm.

    6. LB

      Um, it is a type of psychological and emotional abuse that involves someone, uh, attempting to make another person feel crazy by creating this kind of, like, surreal environment around them. So it's not just, like, isolating or intimidating or minimizing someone. It's trying to make them, like, not trust their own mind, their own, their memories, their reactions, their, like, experience of the world.

    7. MR

      Hmm.

    8. LB

      And our brains are essentially, like, prediction machines. And so whenever we get feedback from another person that, like, all the predictions that you are making are wrong, it can be really destabilizing. And, and I think what's most concerning about it is when you start to feel like, "I can't trust my own mind's interpretation of events, so I need your interpretation," and that can create this real sense of dependence on another person, and, and isolation from other people. Um, so there, I mean, compared to other types of abuse, we actually have relatively little research on gaslighting.

    9. MR

      Hmm.

    10. LB

      But we do know that people with high levels of dark personality traits endorse this kind of behavior in romantic relationships. Like, people were asked, "Yeah, uh, what do you think about, you know, um, telling someone that, you know, that didn't actually happen that way?" Or their reactions are completely outsized. They're trying to make them doubt their experience of the world, and people with higher levels of all the dark personality traits that we talked about today were like, "That seems fine." [laughs] So, so, um, that can be, you know, in- incredibly destabilizing and difficult to get out

  12. 53:09 – 59:31

    Why Narcissists and Toxic People Don't Change

    1. LB

      of.

    2. MR

      Can a person with a dark personality change?

    3. LB

      So, personalities can change. They tend to change very little over time, especially if people are not committed to that kind of change, and people with dark personalities tend not to be very concerned about changing themselves.

    4. MR

      Well, if you're callous, manipulative, and hostile-

    5. LB

      Yeah

    6. MR

      ... then why would you change?

    7. LB

      Exactly. It's, uh, they see it as more of a, "This is a you problem, not a me problem," right?

    8. MR

      Uh-huh.

    9. LB

      So, uh, they tend not to have a whole lot of commitment, uh, to therapy. Now, the research that we do have, say, on psychopathy in particular, suggests that if people will stay in therapy for, like, multiple sessions, um, they can reduce, it's almost like a harm reduction in their behavior. So most of this research is with incarcerated men.

    10. MR

      Hmm.

    11. LB

      And the outcome that we're looking at is, um, recidivism, so likelihood that they will commit another offense when they get released. And the guys who stick with treatment longer are less likely to engage in recidivism and come back to prison, so that, like, that's amazing. That's an improvement. They do not become dramatically different people. Like, they don't become, you know, the most kind and honest person. We're not looking at a personality 180 here. Um, but you can get reduction in, in some of perhaps the more problematic behavior.

    12. MR

      Well, the reason why I ask you that is because, um- I remember Dr. Ramani Durvasula, who-

    13. LB

      Mm

    14. MR

      ... specializes in narcissistic personality disorders-

    15. LB

      Mm-hmm

    16. MR

      ... once said something to me that changed the way that I forever deal with a, a person in my life who clearly has all the traits.

    17. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. MR

      Um, and what she basically said is, "The single thing that is creating so much pain and frustration when you're dealing with somebody once you recognize these dark traits is your belief and hope-

    19. LB

      Mm-hmm

    20. MR

      ... that the other person will change."

    21. LB

      Yeah.

    22. MR

      And holding out hope for a fantasy of what might happen if you twist yourself in knots, or you stay for 10 more years, or you just lower your voice, or you bake more cupcakes, or have more sex, or show up at Christmas-

    23. LB

      Uh-huh

    24. MR

      ... that that hope for the fantasy-

    25. LB

      Yeah

    26. MR

      ... keeps you from recognizing the reality-

    27. LB

      Mm-hmm

    28. MR

      ... of what you're dealing with.

    29. LB

      Yeah.

    30. MR

      Do you have any thoughts on sort of that perspective?

  13. 59:31 – 1:03:20

    How to Protect Your Peace & Take Back Your Power

    1. LB

      important.

    2. MR

      Dr. ten Brinke, what are your parting words?

    3. LB

      So I think it's important to end this conversation by, like, putting it into context, right? So about 1% of the general population would meet the clinical criteria for psychopathy. About 10% of the population, on average, would, like, agree with the self-report statements that we use to measure dark personality traits, and that sounds like a lot, Mel. [laughs] It does, but it's so important to flip that statistic around. That means nine out of 10 people are not, uh, callous, and manipulative, and impulsive, and antisocial. They are honest, and they are kind, and they are helpful. And if you take the time to get to know people, um, I bet you'll be surprised at how many good people there are out there. There's such a lack of trust in society-

    4. MR

      Mm

    5. LB

      ... right now, and I think some of it is, is really misplaced. So I hope people don't let this malevolent few that can have such a huge negative impact on our lives keep us from enjoying a life with all the benevolent, amazing people out there.

    6. MR

      Oh, Dr. ten Brinke, I'm so happy you ended there Because you're right. After you hear all this, you start to just feel like you're in a dark cave surrounded by dark personalities.

    7. LB

      Yeah, it can be a bummer.

    8. MR

      And the bigger zoom out is that it's probably one person.

    9. LB

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    10. MR

      It's probably one person that has been causing the massive amount of stress in your life.

    11. LB

      Yeah.

    12. MR

      And I really hope that as you've been listening, you take to heart what Dr. ten Brinke has taught us and understand that when you spot these traits, okay, you now recognize what you're dealing with.

    13. LB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. MR

      And you gotta assume this person's not changing, and if you're gonna choose to continue to be around them, you can be smarter about how you're showing up, and you can think about what motivates a dark personality, right?

    15. LB

      Yeah.

    16. MR

      And just get very strategic about the way you deal with this person.

    17. LB

      Yeah. It can feel like, you know, it's a dark personality's world and we're just living in it, but if we can learn how to identify those people and, like, e- either avoid or approach those interactions a little more strategically, it means that we can dramatically reduce the amount of stress and pain that we feel throughout our lives. By just learning how to deal with, like, one person a little bit more effectively.

    18. MR

      Well, we all have that one person that's, uh, causing 90% of the stress, so I appreciate that you walked us through all of this in depth and really explained it, so we can see what's just normal stress [laughs] and immaturity and what's really something that you need to protect yourself from. So Dr. ten Brinke, thank you, thank you, thank you.

    19. LB

      Thank you, Mel.

    20. MR

      And thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to this. And one more thing. In case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanted to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I think one of the things that helps you create a better life is recognizing the truth of what and who you're dealing with, taking a step back. Remember, Dr. ten Brinke said pause, assess, and then be strategic about how you move forward. Because when you start being more strategic about how you relate to other people, I promise you, your life is gonna get a whole lot better. So go do it. All righty. I will see you in the very next episode. I'll be waiting to welcome you in the moment you hit play. Thank you for watching all the way to the end here on YouTube. And if you're asking yourself, "Okay, what should I watch next?" You're gonna love this video, and I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:03:20

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode ybrv66DM9Dw

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

iOSAndroidClaudeChrome