The Most Eye-Opening Conversation on Marriage & Love You Will Ever Hear (From #1 Divorce Lawyer)

1. 0:00 – 6:20

   Meet The Guest

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      Today, you're gonna learn the best relationship advice that you will ever hear. This is one of the most impactful conversations I have ever had on this podcast.

   2. JSJames Sexton0:12

      Most people who are married would like to have a happy marriage, so just like most people would like to be in good shape. The question is not, what do you want? It's, what are you willing to trade for it? Because you want happiness. The majority of marriages end in divorce. Over 50% end in divorce, and that's just the ones that catastrophically fail. Think about how many people, they're unhappy, they never really become the most authentic version of themselves. They stay together for the kids or 'cause they don't wanna give away half their things. Every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce. Marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not going to win, but if you win, what you win is so fantastic. Why wouldn't you buy a ticket? Why wouldn't you try?

   3. MRMel Robbins0:56

      James Sexton is one of the top divorce attorneys in the world. He has had a front-row seat to the reason why marriages fall apart. Today, he'll teach you what those mistakes are and convince you that a few small changes are the secret to creating lasting and loving relationships. What are the signs-

   4. JSJames Sexton1:17

      Yeah

   5. MRMel Robbins1:17

      ... that you are headed for a breakup or for divorce?

   6. JSJames Sexton1:21

      Disconnection is the number one cause of divorce, but there's a whole bunch of other symptoms that come from disconnection that are easy to point to and say, "Well, that was the cause." But it wasn't the cause. The cause was the disconnection. No single raindrop is responsible for the flood, but the flood's nothing but little raindrops.

   7. MRMel Robbins1:37

      If you had to save a marriage with one thing, what would it be?

   8. JSJames Sexton1:41

      In 25 years of practicing matrimonial law, what I'd say to you is...

   9. MRMel Robbins1:47

      Hey, it's Mel. Now, before we get into this episode with James Sexton, which I'm telling you is dynamite, like fire. Boy, did you pick a winner. My team was showing me that 53% of you who are watching here on YouTube are not subscribed. My goal is to get that number down to 50% by the end of this year, and so here's my ask. You love supporting people who support you. If you're enjoying the content that we're producing here on The Mel Robbins Podcast, please hit Subscribe. It's the easiest way for you to say, "Hey, Mel. Hey, Mel's team. Thank you, thank you, thank you." Best way for you to show support, and it tells us you love the content, you love the guests. And speaking of guests that you love, holy cow, one of the single best guests we have ever had. Thanks for hitting Subscribe. Now please help me welcome James Sexton to The Mel Robbins Podcast. James Sexton, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.

   10. JSJames Sexton2:40

       Great to be here.

   11. MRMel Robbins2:41

       I have so many questions for you, but where I wanna start-

   12. JSJames Sexton2:44

       Okay

   13. MRMel Robbins2:46

       ... is this: how could my life be different if I take everything to heart that you're about to teach me today, and I apply it to my life and my relationship? What, what, what could change?

   14. JSJames Sexton2:57

       Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as a practicing divorce lawyer for 25-plus years, I have a really unique vantage point, you know? A lot of relationship advice that people get and people give, it, it's coming from a psychology background. It's coming from a, a hypothetical, theoretical background, and again, has tremendous value. But it's not, like, in the trenches, and it's not this really raw, candid version, 'cause I think people lie to their therapists all the time. But they don't lie to their lawyer. Like, your doctor and your lawyer are the two people you should never lie to under any circumstances. Everything we're doing is to protect you, and everything we're saying is subject to privilege. So you can tell us the raw, candid truth, and I think that's created in me a, a unique perspective on, you know... Like, if you wanted to figure out how to keep your car in good shape, don't talk to the car salesman. All they do is deal with new cars. Talk to the mechanic. Like, talk to the person who's seen every way a car can break down, and will say to you, "Hey, here's the stress points. Here's where I find this model of car tends to break, and here's how you could shore that up and prevent it." So a lot of what I try to give people, instead of, like, platitudes, like, "Oh, you need to maintain connection with your..." Like, what does that mean? Like, I, I need to know what that means. Like, if I'm trying to fix my relationship or keep my relationship on track and you say, "Stay connected," okay, do you mean like a date night or more sex, or should we go on vacation? Or should I be asking different questions when we're having breakfast together? Or should we be having breakfast together? Like, what, what do you mean? Like, I need practical things, because as a lawyer, you know, like, it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what I can prove.

   15. MRMel Robbins4:34

       True.

   16. JSJames Sexton4:35

       So I don't just have to think in these broad ways that, you know, maybe a researcher or a psychologist can. I have to think, okay, what can demonstrate something? What is evidence to support what it is that I'm putting out there? So I think what you could walk out of this conversation with is a feeling of, I have practical, specific things that I can now bring to my relationship that aren't complicated, that don't require me to buy anything. They just require me to buy into a task or a routine. And if, if you can bring that to the table after this conversation, I think you'll actually see challenges in your relationship potentially improve. Or if you're fortunate enough to be in a place where your relationship is strong, you'll find yourself kind of maintaining that, 'cause it's a whole lot easier to maintain fitness than to let it fall apart and then try to get back on track. Like, those first miles are so hard, and that's really what the goal is, is to, to help people by learning from the mistakes I've now seen thousands of people make just keep their relationship in a good place.

   17. MRMel Robbins5:38

       I am so excited you're here, 'cause I don't wanna-

   18. JSJames Sexton5:41

       Mm

   19. MRMel Robbins5:41

       ... make those mistakes.

   20. JSJames Sexton5:41

       Good.

   21. MRMel Robbins5:42

       And what's interesting about that example of fitness is you said it can be easier to maintain it. I think it's almost equally easy to let it fall off-

   22. JSJames Sexton5:51

       Yeah

   23. MRMel Robbins5:51

       ... as it is to maintain it.

   24. JSJames Sexton5:53

       Yeah.

   25. MRMel Robbins5:53

       It's really whether or not you understand those little levers-

   26. JSJames Sexton5:58

       Yeah

   27. MRMel Robbins5:58

       ... when you start to fall off.

   28. JSJames Sexton6:00

       Yeah.

   29. MRMel Robbins6:00

       Because just like fitness, there are probably areas in your relationship right now-Where you are falling off and you don't even-

   30. JSJames Sexton6:09

       Yeah
2. 6:20 – 9:15

   The Reason Relationships and Marriages Fail

   1. JSJames Sexton6:20

      feels good, you know? Like, when things are sort of coasting-

   2. MRMel Robbins6:22

      Yes

   3. JSJames Sexton6:22

      ... and you kinda go, 'Cause there's just so much coming at us-

   4. MRMel Robbins6:25

      Yes

   5. JSJames Sexton6:25

      ... in the world. And so to go, "All right. I got my person. I got that locked down. I can worry about all this other stuff, the kids, work, the, you know, what's going on in the world, everything else, 'cause I have this. I'm good. I'm good. We'll hold- We, we have each other. We- we're wearing a ring. We're doing the whole thing. Like, we're, we're in. We don't have to worry about that anymore." And meanwhile, like, no. That's, that's, that... You gotta water that plant. Like, that's a, that's a relationship that when you were looking for it, it was so important, and when you found it, you were so happy that you found it. You know, we make the mistake of thinking love is, like, permanently gifted to us. It's loaned. Like, every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce, but it ends. And, and it's one of those weird things, like to say to someone, "I hope it ends in death for you."

   6. MRMel Robbins7:09

      [laughs]

   7. JSJames Sexton7:09

      Like, but, but it's the truth. Like, I hope your marriage ends in death because the other way that it's gonna end is divorce, and the majority of marriages end in divorce. Over 50% end in divorce. So, and that's just the ones that catastrophically failed. Like, think about how many people, you know, succeeded in marriage, but, you know, they, meaning they didn't divorce, but they're unhappy. They never really become the most authentic version of themselves. They stay together for the kids or 'cause they don't wanna give away half their things. What is that? Another 10%, 20%? Now you have something that fails 70% of the time, and yet we are like, "Let's do it. We gotta sign people up for this. It's a great thing." It's, uh, like, even if someone says, "I'm getting married," if you were to say, "Really? Why?" It would be rude. That's a rude question to ask. But meanwhile, you're doing something that fails roughly 50 to 70% of the time. It's not unreasonable to say, "Why?" And, and I think the big issue is, and that's why I, I say, like, falling feels like flying for a little while until you hit the ground because sometimes by the time you realize, oh, this marriage is not a good place anymore, it's real far gone.

   8. MRMel Robbins8:16

      Yeah.

   9. JSJames Sexton8:16

      And it's real hard to come back, you know? And that's why when people say, like, "Oh, what, you know, what's the number one cause of divorce?" It's like disconnection is the number one cause of divorce, but there's a whole bunch of other symptoms that come from disconnection that are easy to point to and say, "Well, that was the cause," but it wasn't the cause. The cause was the disconnection. No single raindrop was responsible for the flood, but the flood's nothing but little raindrops.

   10. MRMel Robbins8:40

       Do you believe in marriage?

   11. JSJames Sexton8:41

       I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think... I think that's an individual question. I like to look at relationships, romantic relationships as chapters in a long book.

   12. MRMel Robbins8:51

       Mm.

   13. JSJames Sexton8:52

       And I think, like any chapter in a long book, you know, there's some chapters that are tragic and some chapters that are sad-

   14. MRMel Robbins8:59

       [laughs]

   15. JSJames Sexton8:59

       ... and some chapters that are just filled with nothing but joy. You know, I think Orson Welles said that, that, um, whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end it, you know? And I think a lot of, you know, relationship stories that we sell to people, rom-coms

3. 9:15 – 14:04

   What You Need To Know Before Getting Married

   1. JSJames Sexton9:15

      and things like that, they're kind of the relationship equivalent of pornography. Like, they're just a stylized version of what actual relationships look like, you know, without any of the complexity, like, with just the good part. And I think, I think marriage, I don't think I can learn everything I need to know about myself from myself. I think I need someone who'll see my blind spots, and I think I need that person to be someone I can be really fearless around. And I think, like, at its core, marriage should boil down to, to four words that I think, I think are potentially the most beautiful words you could say to someone and mean or have someone say to you and know they're true, and that is, "You're my favorite person."

   2. MRMel Robbins10:03

      Hmm.

   3. JSJames Sexton10:04

      Like, what could be more beautiful than being told and knowing, like, that when this person says it, they mean it. "You're my favorite person." And to say to someone back, "Yeah, you're my favorite person," like, what would be better in the world than having that, you know? And, and so I like to think about kind of the end of things and then reverse engineer. And to me, like, at the end of your life, if you could look at another person and say, "You helped me become the most authentic version of myself, and you're still my favorite person," that's the greatest wedding toast you could ever have. Like, that's the greatest blessing you could have in your life, and I think it'd be the greatest asset you could have in your life. But having represented cops, teachers, firefighters, CEOs, elite athletes, celebrities, we are all equally terrible at this.

   4. MRMel Robbins11:01

      [laughs] What do you wish every couple understood before they got married?

   5. JSJames Sexton11:08

      So two things, and they're contradictory, so I say that out front 'cause as, as soon as I say it, I, I know it's gonna sound like a contradiction, but I think you'll, as a long, long-married person, I think you'll agree. I think they make two contradictory mistakes.

   6. MRMel Robbins11:23

      [laughs]

   7. JSJames Sexton11:23

      One is thinking that marrying this person will change them.

   8. MRMel Robbins11:26

      [laughs]

   9. JSJames Sexton11:27

      So, you know, he leaves his socks everywhere, but if we get married, he'll stop doing that, or he drinks too much, but if we get married, he'll stop. You know, she's not very fiscally responsible, but if we get married, she'll, you know, shape up and get that together. So thinking that if you marry somebody, they're gonna become a better version of themselves, and they'll definitely change, this is not a great idea. Like, this is not a... You're not buying a depressed company that this, you're hoping the stock will go up, okay? But the contradictory thing is also thinking this person will never change, that if we get married, that it'll prevent them from changing.

   10. MRMel Robbins11:59

       Oh, I see exactly why these are the same thing.

   11. JSJames Sexton12:02

       Right, because it's the feeling of, "Hey, you know, like, this is so good."Like, the sex is so good, and our companionship is so good, and our conversation is so good, and our whole vibe together is so good. Like, if we get married, we're gonna... It's like building a wall around this thing, and it's gonna keep it amazing, you know? And that's, "This is what we have to do. We'll shore up all the defenses against the world, and we'll- nothing will change. We'll just be happy and having sex and having it great, just like we are right now, forever."

   12. MRMel Robbins12:27

       [laughs]

   13. JSJames Sexton12:27

       And, like, that's just ridiculous. Like, there's nothing, there's no way to have... I mean, maybe when people died in their 30s and 40s that was possible because you had a short window of time. But the truth is, like to say, "Hey, I'm gonna be with somebody 30, 40, 50 years in this very intense, intimate relationship, and, you know, it'll never change," like, that's insane. We're gonna ch- Our bodies change. Our goals change. The, the pressures we're... The society around us is constantly changing. Technology's changing. So how would you think that a contract we sign with the government about our relationship is gonna prevent it from eroding or having any of the, like, natural things that happen to our bodies, to our lives, to every other relationship we have?

   14. MRMel Robbins13:12

       So is there a better question to ask yourself, knowing how much change is gonna hit you? You know what I'm saying?

   15. JSJames Sexton13:21

       Yeah.

   16. MRMel Robbins13:21

       Like, so if you could grab every young couple-

   17. JSJames Sexton13:24

       Yeah

   18. MRMel Robbins13:24

       ... by the shoulders-

   19. JSJames Sexton13:25

       Yeah

   20. MRMel Robbins13:25

       ... who's in that moment where they're like, "I think this is my person. You're my favorite person now-"

   21. JSJames Sexton13:30

       Yeah, yeah

   22. MRMel Robbins13:30

       ... and I'm feeling the pressure," or, "I really have always wanted to get married-"

   23. JSJames Sexton13:34

       Yeah

   24. MRMel Robbins13:34

       ... or, "All my friends are getting married-"

   25. JSJames Sexton13:36

       Yeah

   26. MRMel Robbins13:36

       ... or, "I'm the only single one," or, "I've been divorced for too long, and I wanna try this."

   27. JSJames Sexton13:40

       Yeah.

   28. MRMel Robbins13:40

       Like, is there a question that you wish couples or people personally would just stop and ask themselves the true question?

   29. JSJames Sexton13:49

       I think everything is what little things can we do to stay connected? And I don't think it's that hard. Like, I think you can dedicate 10 minutes a week to the upkeep of a relationship and stay out of

4. 14:04 – 28:22

   How You Can Save (Or Strengthen) Any Marriage in 10 Minutes a Week

   1. JSJames Sexton14:04

      my office a lot of the time. Like, I genuinely believe that if you spent 10 minutes a week just saying to your partner, "What did I do this week? Tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved," I, I think you'd be surprised at the answer. Like, I think you, you think you know the answer, but you'd be surprised. Like, I think if your husband, if, if you s- if he said to you, "What are three things I did this week that made you feel loved," the practical, actual answers, you might not be able to predict those. Like, he might not have been able to guess in advance what they are because little things make us feel loved. And by the way, if you ha- if you have courage and you go into this transaction saying, "Hey, we're gonna not hear this defensively."

   2. MRMel Robbins14:50

      Yeah.

   3. JSJames Sexton14:50

      Like, "We're gonna speak honestly, and we're gonna hear in a non-defensive way," then you can ask another question, which is, "Where did I miss the mark this week? What are three things I could have done better this week? What were three things I did this week that made you feel less than loved or less than seen?" You can have fun with it and say, "What are three things I did this week that made you wanna have sex with me?" Like, "What were three things this week that I did that turned you on?" By the way, the answer's bonkers, absolutely bonkers. Like-

   4. MRMel Robbins15:17

      Like what?

   5. JSJames Sexton15:17

      As a heterosexual man, when I've asked that question, it's the weirdest things. It's like, oh, you were, the dogs came in from outside, and you were like, you know, kinda toweling them off, and the way they were looking at you. And like, that made you wanna have sex with me? Like, here I am-

   6. MRMel Robbins15:31

      Where are the dogs? [laughs]

   7. JSJames Sexton15:32

      I'm trying to get eight-pack abs. And, and meanwhile, this is what makes you, like-

   8. MRMel Robbins15:37

      Huh

   9. JSJames Sexton15:37

      ... like, feel... But it really... Like, the things that make us-

   10. MRMel Robbins15:40

       I understand, 'cause I, I... Honestly, when you said, "What makes you feel..." I was thinking to myself, well, if Chris asked me that, while I was here working, he was with his friends skiing.

   11. JSJames Sexton15:52

       Okay.

   12. MRMel Robbins15:52

       And he took our two dogs, and so he spent the day, you know-

   13. JSJames Sexton15:56

       Yeah

   14. MRMel Robbins15:56

       ... hiking up the mountain-

   15. JSJames Sexton15:57

       Yeah

   16. MRMel Robbins15:57

       ... and skiing down.

   17. JSJames Sexton15:58

       Yeah.

   18. MRMel Robbins15:58

       The dogs were chasing him.

   19. JSJames Sexton15:59

       Yeah.

   20. MRMel Robbins16:00

       He sent me photos.

   21. JSJames Sexton16:01

       Right, right.

   22. MRMel Robbins16:02

       And I felt so loved-

   23. JSJames Sexton16:04

       Right

   24. MRMel Robbins16:05

       ... that he remembered me in the middle of that-

   25. JSJames Sexton16:07

       Yeah

   26. MRMel Robbins16:07

       ... and sent me that in the middle of the day.

   27. JSJames Sexton16:08

       Yeah. And see, and you identify what that really was, which-

   28. MRMel Robbins16:12

       Yeah

   29. JSJames Sexton16:12

       ... it wasn't just the thing. It's what's underneath it.

   30. MRMel Robbins16:14

       Yes.
5. 28:22 – 32:37

   Why People Cheat (The Real Causes of Infidelity)

   1. JSJames Sexton28:22

      And so I think it's the same thing with falling out of love. And so the big relationship killers are infidelity, financial impropriety, you know, outright deception. Like, and that's huge. Like, I, I would say a good 85% of the divorces that I'm involved in, infidelity has some role in it.

   2. MRMel Robbins28:40

      Why do you think that is?

   3. JSJames Sexton28:41

      Because I think we have a human... The same reason why so many people wanna get married, we have a human desire to connect to another person. I think we're social creatures. W- this is something in us. Like, we want to connect with another person. We, we need desperately to, to be interested and interesting, and we want to feel loved. We want physical connection with another person. We want the attention that comes with physical connection. You know, we want the... I, I think we, whether it's marriage and the early days of marriage or dating, or the early days of infidelity, it's not just the other person that we kind of fall for, it's also who we feel like when we're with them. You know, like, you stand a little taller when someone sees you as so beautiful or so handsome. Like, you, you feel like a version of yourself. Like, everyone I talk to in my office who's had affairs, very often they'll say, like, "Look, I, I love my spouse. I never stopped loving my spouse. But, like, my spouse doesn't find me beautiful or handsome anymore. Like, nobody, you know, like... And, and I've sto- and then I met this person, and, like, I'm fascinating to them. I, they tell me how beautiful I am or how handsome I am, and I actually feel that. Like, I feel that way." Because it's so lovely to be told, you know, "You're so wonderful. I'm enjoying being with..." And even just the two of us right now talking to each other, there's something so beautiful about, like, "Oh, what you're saying is so interesting. I'm enjoying talking to you."

   4. MRMel Robbins30:11

      Mm.

   5. JSJames Sexton30:11

      Like, that's such a lovely exchange. So it's a natural human... Like, if you think about, like, the seven deadly sins-

   6. MRMel Robbins30:18

      Right

   7. JSJames Sexton30:19

      ... you know?All they really are is, like, seven very normal human things taken to the wrong level. Like, we wanna eat. Okay, gluttony. We, we, we need intimate connection with another person. Lust. You know, we get angry when someone hurts us. Wrath. Like, if you look at those things, all it is is a normal human thing weaponized. So I, I think that's where we, you know, we lose the plot in that we, we just forget, like, the, the most common thing, again, is just that disconnection, and that disconnection can be in the form of I'm disconnected from the me you made me feel like.

   8. MRMel Robbins30:55

      Yes.

   9. JSJames Sexton30:55

      Which is a me problem, by the way.

   10. MRMel Robbins30:57

       Which typically, by the way, I'm sure you see this, is that when you have a relationship where there's been infidelity-

   11. JSJames Sexton31:04

       Yeah

   12. MRMel Robbins31:04

       ... and the person who's cheating is being, is feeling seen-

   13. JSJames Sexton31:09

       Yeah

   14. MRMel Robbins31:09

       ... and feeling like they can stand taller, and feeling like they're interesting.

   15. JSJames Sexton31:13

       Yeah.

   16. MRMel Robbins31:13

       The person who's being cheated on is like, "Well, I wanted that, too, in our relationship, you asshole." Like, "Why?"

   17. JSJames Sexton31:19

       Right.

   18. MRMel Robbins31:20

       Like, "I was missing that, too."

   19. JSJames Sexton31:21

       Right.

   20. MRMel Robbins31:21

       And so you can see-

   21. JSJames Sexton31:23

       Yeah

   22. MRMel Robbins31:23

       ... that the disconnection and the lack of feeling cared about-

   23. JSJames Sexton31:27

       Right. Right

   24. MRMel Robbins31:28

       ... is a problem. It's happening for both of them.

   25. JSJames Sexton31:30

       Yeah. It's happening for both of them, and there were all of these moments where you had, like, a last clear chance to steer out of that. But there's, like, an opportunity for people if they'd communicated early on, like, "Hey, I'm not feeling, like, I feel like my eye is wandering. I don't want my eye to wander." Like, I wanna be good at this job, right? Like, when you marry someone, you're signing on for a job. Like, it's wonderful, it's bliss, all those things, but it's also a job. It's got a job description, you know? Like, I'm your... And by the way, it's an insane job description. Like, you're gonna be my best friend, best co-parent, best roommate, best travel partner, be- Like, wow, really? Like, that's a big list. You found one person that can do all of that? We've convinced people that no, no, this is your person, and they should be the best at everything. And if they're not, by the way, maybe your soulmate's out there and you missed the boat, and you gotta go find that person because life is supposed to be like a Hallmark movie, you know?

   26. MRMel Robbins32:25

       I-

   27. JSJames Sexton32:25

       Yeah

   28. MRMel Robbins32:25

       ... I feel like anybody that's in a relationship right now-

   29. JSJames Sexton32:28

       Yeah

   30. MRMel Robbins32:28

       ... is leaning in.
6. 32:37 – 40:17

   The Impact of Social Media on Relationships and Infidelity

   1. MRMel Robbins32:37

      have a chapter in your book, How to Stay in Love, chapter 19, if we were designing an infidelity-generating machine, it would be Facebook, Instagram-

   2. JSJames Sexton32:49

      Yeah

   3. MRMel Robbins32:49

      ... YouTube-

   4. JSJames Sexton32:50

      Yeah

   5. MRMel Robbins32:50

      ... social media.

   6. JSJames Sexton32:51

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins32:51

      This is page 114. "If you're vaguely unhappy with your relationship or marriage, and especially if you're more than vaguely unhappy with it, stay away from social media. The vast majority of what you'll find there is unhappiness masked as happiness. It will fuck with your head, your heart, and your relationship." And you talk all about how social media's the single greatest breeding ground ever for infidelity. Nothing that has come before, not swingers clubs, key parties, chat rooms, workplace temptation, Ashley Madison, Tinder, Grindr, no, no, no, no, not even porn, comes within 1,000 miles.

   8. JSJames Sexton33:35

      Yeah, I stand by that.

   9. MRMel Robbins33:36

      Why?

   10. JSJames Sexton33:37

       Because it's just a perfect storm of, of attacks on the institution of a monogamous marriage. Like, it, it, A, you have a innocuous reason you should be using this technology.

   11. MRMel Robbins33:54

       Oh, you need to cover.

   12. JSJames Sexton33:55

       And it's not that I'm like-

   13. MRMel Robbins33:55

       You're like, "I don't have the time for a-

   14. JSJames Sexton33:56

       Yeah

   15. MRMel Robbins33:56

       ... for a run." Yes

   16. JSJames Sexton33:56

       ... I have to. I'm on it for work, or I wanted to see what this person's up to, or, oh, the Facebook Group of blah, blah, blah is, you know, for our kids' thing. Or, like, there's a million reasons you'd be on your phone that are totally innocuous.

   17. MRMel Robbins34:08

       Right, unlike a strip club.

   18. JSJames Sexton34:09

       Unlike a strip club. Or if, for example, I think that one of the women at my, one of the moms at my son's soccer practice is attractive. If the only entry point I have for talking to her would be walking up to her at practice, it's not as threatening, because you can't really do that without it being... But now, while we follow each other on social media because we both are part of that group that is a group chat that, you know. And now I also see her vacation pictures. And now I, I might innocuously say to her, "Oh, I saw you guys went to Tulum. Where did you stay? We're thinking about going." And now I'm talking to you, and I'm talking to you, by the way, privately. Like, I'm in your DMs. We're talking. So it's not only, like, not, it's not like approaching you at the soccer game. It's like approaching you alone in a restaurant. Like, and we're just the two of us talking, and no one can see what we're saying. You're just creating this perfect storm for people. And by the way, the performative self. Like, all, anyone posts is the best pictures of themselves. And when, and when are you on your phone looking at social media? Is it when you're having, like, the greatest day or the greatest moment? No. You're on the subway, you're on the toilet.

   19. MRMel Robbins35:14

       [laughs]

   20. JSJames Sexton35:14

       You're bored, right? You're just bored. You're living your gag reel, and you're looking at everyone's greatest hits. And, and you're supposed to walk out of that transaction feeling deeper connected into your real-life relationship? No, it's a total distraction, but it's a distraction that is gonna create all kinds of enticements and connections that really are not gonna be good for your marriage, and you have total plausible deniability if your spouse has any question about why are you on your phone. There's a million reasons we'd all be on our phone. So yeah, it's a perfect storm. Like, as divorce lawyers, we owe the people who made these platforms a debt of tremendous gratitude, because they have given us job security.

   21. MRMel Robbins35:51

       So if you're in a committed partnership-

   22. JSJames Sexton35:53

       Yeah

   23. MRMel Robbins35:54

       ... what is the kinda ground rules around social media for yourself-

   24. JSJames Sexton36:00

       Yeah

   25. MRMel Robbins36:00

       ... and for your partner?

   26. JSJames Sexton36:02

       I, I like how you framed that question, because I think a lot of this has to do with what are you doing.

   27. MRMel Robbins36:07

       Yes.

   28. JSJames Sexton36:07

       Like, because I think most people who are married would like to have a happy marriage, so just like most people would like to be in good shape. The question is not, what do you want? It's, what are you willing to trade for it? Like, what are you willing to give up in exchange for that thing? So I think the first question we have to ask ourselves is, am I using this technology in a way that if my spouse was standing here, I would use it differently?Like, would I be following these people if my spouse was watching who I follow?

   29. MRMel Robbins36:41

       Mm.

   30. JSJames Sexton36:41

       I'm not suggesting we have to monitor each other's social media. That's a, I think, a very personal decision couples have to make. But I think the best entry point is yourself, right? 'Cause I have much more control over myself than anything else. So I think starting with, would I be having this communication with this person in this specific way if my spouse was part of the conversation? And sometimes it's very obvious that the answer's no. Like, I, I genuinely think the cure for the entry points of infidelity is monitoring your own behavior. Like, if my spouse was standing next to me, would I be talking to this person this way? Would I be looking at them this way? Would my body language be what it is if my spouse was standing here? And if the answer is no, okay, then just notice that. Notice that. I'm not saying you have to do it differently, but notice that. Because you realize, hey, this is a problem. Like, I, I know I keep bringing things back to, like, food and fitness but, you know, like, I can't... I can control my food environment better than my brain.
7. 40:17 – 52:41

   Reignite Connection in a Long-Term Relationship (Small Fixes That Work)

   1. MRMel Robbins40:17

      How?

   2. JSJames Sexton40:17

      It works the same. It works the same in the opposite direction. How is, is the same way that it went wrong. Small. Small actions. Like, start small. Start with leave a note. Leave a note. You're leaving in the morning for work? Leave a note, "It was really fun hanging out with you last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world." Or, you know, um, "Hey, thanks for, you know, uh, thanks for taking care of that, you know, thing for me yesterday and calling the cable company. It really means a lot when my big, strong man does things like that." Whatever. Like, some little courtesy or kindness. Costs nothing, takes five seconds to do. So-

   3. MRMel Robbins40:55

      You know what you also did? 'Cause you're really good at manipulating-

   4. JSJames Sexton40:57

      Yeah

   5. MRMel Robbins40:58

      ... and being strategic.

   6. JSJames Sexton40:59

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins40:59

      You reminded me-

   8. JSJames Sexton41:01

      Yeah

   9. MRMel Robbins41:01

      ... in that note-

   10. JSJames Sexton41:03

       Yeah

   11. MRMel Robbins41:03

       ... of how I felt-

   12. JSJames Sexton41:05

       Yeah

   13. MRMel Robbins41:05

       ... when we first met.

   14. JSJames Sexton41:06

       Yeah. Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins41:07

       Prettiest girl in the world.

   16. JSJames Sexton41:08

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins41:09

       Strongest guy.

   18. JSJames Sexton41:10

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins41:10

       Best person on the planet.

   20. JSJames Sexton41:11

       Yeah. And why not, why not? Like, that's so easy throughout the day. Like, I, I, I tell a lot of my male friends, if you text your wife in the middle of the day with a song that was, like, a song important to you, and you send a link to that song, and you go, "I heard this song in the coffee shop today, and I thought of you," like, that, that's an incredible feeling. Like, it's an intoxicating, wonderful feeling. Like, and, and it doesn't take much to just bring someone back to that place. And by the way, the person's initial reaction might be, "What, what inspired that?" Like, where... 'Cause if you're down far enough in the valley-

   21. MRMel Robbins41:46

       Right, right

   22. JSJames Sexton41:46

       ... you kinda go like... But it's not hard to just say, "You know what? I just, I feel like I have to do a better job of, like, telling you these things. I think of it a lot, but I sometimes don't say it out loud."

   23. MRMel Robbins41:56

       Mm.

   24. JSJames Sexton41:56

       Like, who would not want to hear that? Like, how much would it take, and how much would it cost? Nothing. It would cost nothing. To write your spouse an email, "Here's 10 things I love about you." 10 things. And by the way, you're, it's not just for them. Like, they'll love reading that. But also, like, it's for you. Like, remind yourself, why did you choose this person? Like, there's still so much beauty in this person. There's still so much beauty in you. Like, why wouldn't you take a moment and just enjoy the warmth of that? Like, it's right there. It's... Like, no one's gonna advertise this to you 'cause it's free.

   25. MRMel Robbins42:36

       [laughs]

   26. JSJames Sexton42:36

       You don't need to buy a book to learn it. You don't need to take a course. There's nothing I can sell you here. Like, this is just, you have it. It's right there. It's right in front of you. You have to actively steer away from it at some point. And again, and it's never too late to change that cycle.

   27. MRMel Robbins42:52

       Well, I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the person-Who hears that.

   28. JSJames Sexton42:57

       Yeah.

   29. MRMel Robbins42:59

       They're writing the email of 10 things, and I think we can get so sequestered in our corners-

   30. JSJames Sexton43:05

       Yeah
8. 52:41 – 56:49

   Warning Signs You’re Headed for a Breakup or Divorce

   1. MRMel Robbins52:41

      the signs-

   2. JSJames Sexton52:43

      Yeah

   3. MRMel Robbins52:44

      ... and really giving the person listening the just resources or the awareness-

   4. JSJames Sexton52:53

      Yeah

   5. MRMel Robbins52:53

      ... so that if there's-

   6. JSJames Sexton52:54

      Yeah

   7. MRMel Robbins52:54

      ... a chance for this to spiral back up, you can.

   8. JSJames Sexton52:58

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins52:58

      You know, based on all your experience, what are the signs-

   10. JSJames Sexton53:02

       Yeah

   11. MRMel Robbins53:02

       ... that you are headed for a breakup or for divorce, the ones that you actually see?

   12. JSJames Sexton53:08

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins53:08

       Like, 'cause I bet you go to a party or you can walk into a room-

   14. JSJames Sexton53:11

       Yeah

   15. MRMel Robbins53:12

       ... and you can literally be like, "In a year."

   16. JSJames Sexton53:14

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins53:14

       "Five years."

   18. JSJames Sexton53:15

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins53:15

       "They're in trouble."

   20. JSJames Sexton53:17

       What you have to do first is look at your baseline. So, like, look at what it was you did when you were still connected to each other.

   21. MRMel Robbins53:27

       Mm.

   22. JSJames Sexton53:27

       Like, how did you interact with each other? How often did you have physical intimacy? How often did you spend time together, just the two of you? What did you do separately, and what did you do together? Because until you look at your baseline, you won't know how far you've drifted from your baseline. Relationships change. People change. Their bodies change. Everything changes. But the question is, is when it ch- did it change by default or by design? Have you ever thought or talked about as a couple why it's changed, and are we both okay with that? Or is it something that one or both of us feel like, "Hey, we might have lost something in that process"? So I think, again, baseline is a really important thing to be thinking about. Then one of the first things I observe when I'm seeing the cracks in a couple, like when I walk into a room or I'm watching, you know, one of those housewife shows and I'm like, "Oh, they're definitely getting divorced. They're definitely getting divorced."

   23. MRMel Robbins54:16

       [laughs]

   24. JSJames Sexton54:16

       Like, I often tell people, to me, the surest indicator of a divorce is not anything anyone says. It's a sound, and it's this sound. It's tss, just that, like, tss. Like, when the other person's talking and there's just this like, "Ugh. Like, what? You know? Yeah, whatever. What? Yeah, okay." Like, why are you bothering me with what you're saying? Or that, like, kind of eye-rolling. Like, it's just those subtle-

   25. MRMel Robbins54:42

       Mm

   26. JSJames Sexton54:42

       ... discourtesies and disrespects. It's the tone. It's the body language. Like, that's a huge piece. It's... So I would, uh, when you're looking at signs, look at how you physically relate to each other.

   27. MRMel Robbins54:55

       Mm.

   28. JSJames Sexton54:55

       I mean, you've seen couples, I'm sure-

   29. MRMel Robbins54:57

       Ugh

   30. JSJames Sexton54:57

       ... where it's like-
9. 56:49 – 1:11:15

   How to Argue in a Productive Way

   1. MRMel Robbins56:49

      that you recommend-

   2. JSJames Sexton56:51

      Yeah

   3. MRMel Robbins56:51

      ... in the middle of an argument to just defuse it-

   4. JSJames Sexton56:54

      Yeah

   5. MRMel Robbins56:54

      ... or defuse yourself?

   6. JSJames Sexton56:55

      I think the worst time to learn how to fight is when you're in a fight.

   7. MRMel Robbins56:57

      [laughs]

   8. JSJames Sexton56:58

      I think in advance there should be some... You know, it's almost like what's a safe word. Like, there should be a word that we've agreed in advance is we're ejecting from this conversation, and we'll continue it at another time. Like, we both know where the other one lives. You know? Like, we'll find each other.

   9. MRMel Robbins57:14

      [laughs]

   10. JSJames Sexton57:14

       So, like, if you have, like, you know, a phrase, like how about them Mets? Like something that just has nothing to do with any discussion you're having, that should be the phrase that, like, I don't think this is productive, and I think we're going down a road that's dangerous. Be- and you should agree on it in advance, and you should make a commitment to each other that, listen, I'm not saying that that ejects us out of this conversation for good because that would be a great way to just, you know, it's like a, like you get a, the, a hall pass in the conversation. We'll never bring it up again.

   11. MRMel Robbins57:42

       Right.

   12. JSJames Sexton57:42

       What we're saying is, "Listen, this will be deferred for 24 hours," or, "This will be deferred for a maximum of X number of hours," or days or whatever it might be. Because you both ba- the corners you back yourself into, you gotta figure out ways to get out of. I mean, think about the commitments you've made to this person. I'm gonna love you, you, and only you for eternity. And you can't make the commitment of, hey, listen, if we're in an argument and one of us feels like this isn't productive or we're feeling really hurt, we're gonna say this phrase, and that phrase will mean we have to call a time out? And two, you know, you can't really love someone, and more importantly, like, you can't really feel someone's love-

   13. MRMel Robbins58:22

       Mm

   14. JSJames Sexton58:23

       ... until you show them a really honest and vulnerable version of yourself. Like, I'm a great performer in a courtroom, you know? And I can present however I need to present, but if in my relationship I am playing the character of, like, the best version of myself and I don't let this person see any of my soft spots or any-

   15. MRMel Robbins58:47

       Mm

   16. JSJames Sexton58:47

       ... of my vulnerabilities or any of the shit I need to work on, any of the things I get wrong, the things I'm afraid of, I'll never feel their love. Like, I'm depriving myself because I'll always have in my head, "Oh, no, no, if, if they knew me, they wouldn't love me. They love me because they bought the character I'm selling them." So I'm depriving myself by not showing this person these weak, difficult, challenging parts of myself. But here's the thing. If someone is brave enough to show you those things, in a fight, if you weaponize those things-

   17. MRMel Robbins59:23

       Right

   18. JSJames Sexton59:24

       ... that is a despicable and almost irreparable thing to do to someone. Because when, really what is divorce at its worst but intimacy weaponized? Because intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is the ability to be completely yourself with another person, like your honest, authentic self with another person. And so to take the vulnerability and the soft spots that a person has shown you in good faith so they could feel connected to you and you guys could trust each other and each feel like you can show each other the soft spots, to, to, in a fight, in a moment of anger, to weaponize that is a really, really awful kind of betrayal. So I, I would always tell people, like, have some ground rules. Like, no low blows. Like, listen, I like, I like the UFC. I like a good fight. I've trained Brazilian jujitsu for 20 years. Like, on- most of my best friends have broken my nose at some point. I'm telling you, like, have a fair fight. Like, if you have to have a fight, have a f- have an ability to call a time out, and keep it a fair fight.

   19. MRMel Robbins1:00:27

       Yeah.

   20. JSJames Sexton1:00:28

       There's a couple of sentences you have somewhere in the back of your head that you know if you said them out loud to him, you would reduce him to a pile of tears in the corner.

   21. MRMel Robbins1:00:36

       Yes.

   22. JSJames Sexton1:00:36

       And he knows those sentences, too, about you. He has some sentences he could say that are all of your scaredest, most vulnerable pieces of you. And I know that because you love each other, and you've been together a really long time, and you can't love someone for that duration with that depth and with that much affection without having been vulnerable to that person.

   23. MRMel Robbins1:00:58

       Or shitty to them.

   24. JSJames Sexton1:00:59

       Right. But, but the truth is, is having knowledge of what that is, having that ammunition-

   25. MRMel Robbins1:01:05

       Mm

   26. JSJames Sexton1:01:05

       ... is an incredible responsibility.

   27. MRMel Robbins1:01:08

       Mm.

   28. JSJames Sexton1:01:08

       And it's something, it's like having the nuclear codes of the relationship. And, like, keep them locked. Like, don't use them because just like nuclear weapons, like, you get to use them once and then the whole world blows up. So, like, don't do... I've seen people who in a moment of anger let that fly.And you can't take that back. You can't, you can't bring that in, you know? And so really give more thought in advance to when we disconnect. We do, we disconnect. Like, as a parent, you know, yeah, who do you love-

   29. MRMel Robbins1:01:41

       Oh, my God

   30. JSJames Sexton1:01:41

       ... more than your kids? And when they're in middle school, you're telling me you didn't wanna kill them? Like, I tell my sons all the time, I'm like, "I, I've never disliked anyone as much as I dislike both of you in middle school." And by the way, I know you disliked yourself more than anything in middle school. Like, you'll never meet a human being in their life who goes, "The best years of my life were middle school."
10. 1:11:15 – 1:32:44

    The #1 Way to Save a Marriage

    1. MRMel Robbins1:11:15

       had to save a marriage with one thing, what would it be?

    2. JSJames Sexton1:11:18

       I think the most important way to save a marriage is to pay attention. I think we just stop paying attention. Like, whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. When you're in it, you just stop seeing it, and I think there's so much going on that you just don't see. And I think if you paid attention, you, you might see. Like, you might step out of the water and see. And I think because marriage is very often about this deep kind of proximity-

    3. MRMel Robbins1:11:53

       Mm

    4. JSJames Sexton1:11:54

       ... it becomes the water. Like, it just becomes this thing that's around you all the time, and, and you stop seeing it. And I, I think if you paid attention to what's going on inside of you and to what's going on with this person, I think most things, the solution comes from that first step.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:12:16

       That's, I think, the most beautiful answer I've ever heard about-

    6. JSJames Sexton1:12:21

       Thanks

    7. MRMel Robbins1:12:21

       ... a marriage. And of course, I love David Foster Wallace.

    8. JSJames Sexton1:12:25

       Yeah. So good. So good. I actually reread that essay, like-

    9. MRMel Robbins1:12:29

       I do too

    10. JSJames Sexton1:12:29

        ... quite often because I, I actually think it's fascinating how often I have to be reminded of that.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:12:36

        You know, if you don't know the essay we're talking about-

    12. JSJames Sexton1:12:38

        Yeah

    13. MRMel Robbins1:12:38

        ... which became this very, very viral, um, graduation speech that David Foster Wallace the writer gave before he died.

    14. JSJames Sexton1:12:46

        At Kenyon University, yeah.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:12:48

        Yeah.

    16. JSJames Sexton1:12:48

        Yeah, it's out there. I think it's called This Is Water.

    17. MRMel Robbins1:12:50

        Yeah.

    18. JSJames Sexton1:12:50

        They published it as something called This Is Water, but you can actually watch video of it, and-

    19. MRMel Robbins1:12:54

        And there's this poignant moment the essay hangs on where two fish are swimming, and they pass another fish, and one of them says to the other, "Hey, how's the water?" And he says, "What's water?"

    20. JSJames Sexton1:13:06

        Yeah.

    21. MRMel Robbins1:13:06

        And then it unravels into this unbelievably profound essay about how much of life you're missing because you're just not present.

    22. JSJames Sexton1:13:19

        And the thing that was beautiful about that essay is I think he, he realized something that, that maybe not every person who's writing the story in their head realizes, which is you could just as easily cast the characters as villains or heroes.And, you know, he talks about in the essay how, like, the person in line in front of you, you know, who's, like, in a bad mood, you can just say, "Oh, they're an awful person," or, like, maybe they have a sick relative at home, and this is, like, the only minute that they managed to get out, and they're so stressed and... And he's like, "And if you just reframe..." Like, it's just as easy to tell yourself that story as it is to tell yourself the story where they're the villain and you're the hero. If, if you judge me as a parent by my greatest moment of parenting, you're giving me too much credit. And if you judge me as a parent by my weakest, worst moment as a parent, you're not giving me enough credit. I'm really kind of the aggregate of all of those things. Well, that's a lesson to bring to your marriage because in your marriage, any time someone tells me the story of their life and they're the hero of the story, I'm instantly skeptical.

    23. MRMel Robbins1:14:24

        Well, that's a really good insight because we all have that friend, particularly the one going through a divorce-

    24. JSJames Sexton1:14:28

        Yeah

    25. MRMel Robbins1:14:28

        ... where the narrative is evil, evil, evil-

    26. JSJames Sexton1:14:31

        Yeah

    27. MRMel Robbins1:14:31

        ... evil, evil, evil, evil, because you're hurt.

    28. JSJames Sexton1:14:34

        Of course.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:14:34

        And there's no self-awareness to say, "Well, you know, I haven't been affectionate in three years, so I can kinda see how the door opened up for them to walk away or-

    30. JSJames Sexton1:14:45

        Yeah

Episode duration: 1:32:44