The Most Eye-Opening Conversation on Marriage & Love You Will Ever Hear (From #1 Divorce Lawyer)

Mel Robbins 0:00 Today, you're gonna learn the best relationship advice that you will ever hear. This is one of the most impactful conversations I have ever had on this podcast.

James Sexton 0:12 Most people who are married would like to have a happy marriage, so just like most people would like to be in good shape. The question is not, what do you want? It's what are you willing to trade for it? Because you want happiness. The majority of marriages end in divorce. Over 50% end in divorce, and that's just the ones that catastrophically fail. Think about how many people, they're unhappy. They never really become the most authentic version of themselves. They stay together for the kids or 'cause they don't wanna give away half their things. Every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce. Marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not going to win, but if you win, what you win is so fantastic. Why wouldn't you buy a ticket? Why wouldn't you try?

Mel Robbins 0:56 James Sexton is one of the top divorce attorneys in the world. He has had a front-row seat to the reason why marriages fall apart. Today, he'll teach you what those mistakes are and convince you that a few small changes are the secret to creating lasting and loving relationships. What are the signs-

James Sexton 1:17 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:17 ... that you are headed for a breakup or for divorce?

James Sexton 1:21 Disconnection is the number one cause of divorce, but there's a whole bunch of other symptoms that come from disconnection that are easy to point to and say, "Well, that was the cause." But it wasn't the cause. The cause was the disconnection. No single raindrop is responsible for the flood, but the flood's nothing but little raindrops.

Mel Robbins 1:37 If you had to save a marriage with one thing, what would it be?

James Sexton 1:41 In 25 years of practicing matrimonial law, what I'd say to you is...

Mel Robbins 1:47 Hey, it's Mel. Now, before we get into this episode with James Sexton, which I'm telling you is dynamite, like fire. Boy, did you pick a winner. My team was showing me that 53% of you who are watching here on YouTube are not subscribed. My goal is to get that number down to 50% by the end of this year, and so here's my ask. You love supporting people who support you. If you're enjoying the content that we're producing here on The Mel Robbins Podcast, please hit Subscribe. It's the easiest way for you to say, "Hey, Mel. Hey, Mel's team. Thank you, thank you, thank you." Best way for you to show support, and it tells us you love the content, you love the guests. And speaking of guests that you love, holy cow, one of the single best guests we have ever had. Thanks for hitting Subscribe. Now, please help me welcome James Sexton to The Mel Robbins Podcast. James Sexton, welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast.

James Sexton 2:40 Great to be here.

Mel Robbins 2:41 I have so many questions for you, but where I wanna start-

James Sexton 2:44 Okay

Mel Robbins 2:44 ... is this: How could my life be different if I take everything to heart that you're about to teach me today, and I apply it to my life and my relationship? What, what, what could change?

James Sexton 2:57 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, as a practicing divorce lawyer for 25-plus years, I have a really unique vantage point, you know? A lot of relationship advice that people get and people give, it, it's coming from a psychology background. It's coming from a, a hypothetical, theoretical background, and again, has tremendous value. But it's not, like, in the trenches, and it's not this really raw, candid version, 'cause I think people lie to their therapists all the time. But they don't lie to their lawyer. Like, your doctor and your lawyer are the two people you should never lie to under any circumstances. Everything we're doing is to protect you, and everything we're saying is subject to privilege, so you can tell us the raw, candid truth. And I think that's created in me a, a unique perspective on, you know... Like, if you wanted to figure out how to keep your car in good shape, don't talk to the car salesman. All they do is deal with new cars. Talk to the mechanic. Like, talk to the person who's seen every way a car can break down and will say to you, "Hey, here's the stress points. Here's where I find this model of car tends to break, and here's how you could shore that up and prevent it." So a lot of what I try to give people, instead of, like, platitudes, like, oh, you need to maintain connection with your... Like, what does that mean? Like, I, I need to know what that means. Like, if I'm trying to fix my relationship or keep my relationship on track and you say, "Stay connected," okay, do you mean, like, a date night, or more sex, or should we go on vacation, or should I be asking different questions when we're having breakfast together? Should we be having breakfast together? Like, what, what do you mean? Like, I need practical things because as a lawyer, you know, like, it doesn't matter what I know. It matters what I can prove.

Mel Robbins 4:34 True.

James Sexton 4:35 So I don't just have to think in these broad ways that, you know, maybe a researcher or a psychologist can. I have to think, okay, what can demonstrate something? What is evidence to support what it is that I'm putting out there? So I think what you could walk out of this conversation with is a feeling of I have practical, specific things that I can now bring to my relationship that aren't complicated, that don't require me to buy anything. They just require me to buy into a task or a routine. And if, if you can bring that to the table after this conversation, I think you'll actually see challenges in your relationship potentially improve. Or if you're fortunate enough to be in a place where your relationship is strong, you'll find yourself kind of maintaining that, 'cause it's a whole lot easier to maintain fitness than to let it fall apart and then try to get back on track. Like, those first miles are so hard, and that's really what the goal is, is to, to help people by learning from the mistakes I've now seen thousands of people make. Just keep their relationship in a good place.

Mel Robbins 5:38 I am so excited you're here 'cause I don't wanna-

James Sexton 5:41 Mm

Mel Robbins 5:41 ... make those mistakes.

James Sexton 5:41 Good.

Mel Robbins 5:42 And what's interesting about that example of fitness is you said it can be easier to maintain it. I think it's almost equally easy to let it fall off-

James Sexton 5:51 Yeah

Mel Robbins 5:51 ... as it is to maintain it.

James Sexton 5:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:53 It's really whether or not you understand those little levers-

James Sexton 5:58 Yeah

Mel Robbins 5:58 ... when you start to fall off.

James Sexton 6:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 6:00 Because just like fitness, there are probably areas in your relationship right now- Where you are falling off and you don't even-

James Sexton 6:09 Yeah

Mel Robbins 6:09 ... realize this is a major mistake that will land you in front of somebody like you, James Sexton.

James Sexton 6:15 Yeah, and, and, and falling feels like flying for a little while.

Mel Robbins 6:18 What do you mean?

James Sexton 6:19 Like, it

James Sexton 6:20 feels good, you know? Like, when things are sort of coasting-

Mel Robbins 6:22 Yes

James Sexton 6:22 ... and you kinda go, 'Cause there's just so much coming at us-

Mel Robbins 6:25 Yes

James Sexton 6:25 ... in the world. And so to go, "All right, I got my person. I got that locked down. I can worry about all this other stuff, the kids, work, you know, what's going on in the world, everything else, 'cause I have this. I'm good, I'm good. We'll hold- We, we have each other. We- we're wearing a ring. We're doing the whole thing. Like, we're, we're in. We don't have to worry about that anymore." And meanwhile, like, no, that's, that's, that... You gotta water that plant. Like, that's a, that's a relationship that when you were looking for it, it was so important, and when you found it, you were so happy that you found it. You know, we make the mistake of thinking love is, like, permanently gifted to us. It's loaned. Like, every marriage ends. It ends in death or divorce, but it ends. And, and it's one of those weird things, like, to say to someone, "I hope it ends in death for you."

Mel Robbins 7:09 [laughs]

James Sexton 7:09 Like, but, but it's the truth. Like, I hope your marriage ends in death, because the other way that it's gonna end is divorce. And the majority of marriages end in divorce. Over 50% end in divorce. So, and that's just the ones that catastrophically failed. Like, think about how many people, you know, succeeded in marriage, but, you know, they, meaning they didn't divorce, but they're unhappy. They never really become the most authentic version of themselves. They stay together for the kids or 'cause they don't wanna give away half their things. What is that? Another 10%, 20%? Now you have something that fails 70% of the time, and yet we are like, "Let's do it. We gotta sign people up for this. It's a great thing." It's a... Like, even if someone says, "I'm getting married," if you were to say, "Really? Why?" It would be rude. That's a rude question to ask. But meanwhile, you're doing something that fails roughly 50 to 70% of the time. It's not unreasonable to say, "Why?" And, and I think the big issue is, and that's why I, I say, like, falling feels like flying for a little while, until you hit the ground. Because sometimes by the time you realize, oh, this marriage is not a good place anymore, it's real far gone.

Mel Robbins 8:16 Yeah.

James Sexton 8:16 And it's real hard to come back, you know? And that's why when people say, like, "Oh, what, you know, what's the number one cause of divorce?" It's like, disconnection is the number one cause of divorce, but there's a whole bunch of other symptoms that come from disconnection that are easy to point to and say, "Well, that was the cause," but it wasn't the cause. The cause was the disconnection. No single raindrop was responsible for the flood, but the flood's nothing but little raindrops.

Mel Robbins 8:40 Do you believe in marriage?

James Sexton 8:41 I do. Yeah, I do. I mean, I think, I think that's an individual question. I like to look at relationships, romantic relationships, as chapters in a long book.

Mel Robbins 8:51 Mm.

James Sexton 8:52 And I think, like any chapter in a long book, you know, there are some chapters that are tragic and some chapters that are sad and some chapters that are just filled with nothing but joy. You know, I think Orson Welles said that, that, um, whether a story is a comedy or a tragedy depends on when you end it, you know? And I think a lot of, you know, relationship stories that we sell to people, rom-coms

James Sexton 9:15 and things like that, they're kind of the relationship equivalent of pornography. Like, they're just a stylized version of what actual relationships look like, you know, without any of the complexity, like, with just the good part. And I think, I think marriage, I don't think I can learn everything I need to know about myself from myself. I think I need someone who'll see my blind spots, and I think I need that person to be someone I can be really fearless around. And I think, like, at its core, marriage should boil down to, to four words that I think, I think are potentially the most beautiful words you could say to someone and mean, or have someone say to you and know they're true, and that is, "You're my favorite person."

Mel Robbins 10:03 Hmm.

James Sexton 10:04 Like, what could be more beautiful than being told and knowing, like, that when this person says it, they mean it. "You're my favorite person." And to say to someone back, "Yeah, you're my favorite person," like, what would be better in the world than having that, you know? And, and so I like to think about kind of the end of things and then reverse engineer. And to me, like, at the end of your life, if you could look at another person and say, "You helped me become the most authentic version of myself, and you're still my favorite person," that's the greatest wedding toast you could ever have. Like, that's the greatest blessing you could have in your life, and I think it'd be the greatest asset you could have in your life. But having represented cops, teachers, firefighters, CEOs, elite athletes, celebrities, we are all equally terrible at this.

Mel Robbins 11:01 [laughs] What do you wish every couple understood before they got married?

James Sexton 11:08 So two things, and they're contradictory, so I say that out front. 'Cause as- as soon as I say it, I, I know it's gonna sound like a contradiction, but I think you'll, as a long, long-married person, I think you'll agree. I think they make two contradictory mistakes.

Mel Robbins 11:23 [laughs]

James Sexton 11:23 One is thinking that marrying this person will change them.

Mel Robbins 11:26 [laughs]

James Sexton 11:27 So, you know, he leaves his socks everywhere, but if we get married, he'll stop doing that, or he drinks too much, but if we get married, he'll stop. You know, she's not very fiscally responsible, but if we get married, she'll, you know, shape up and get that together. So thinking that if you marry somebody, they're gonna become a better version of themselves and they'll definitely change, this is not a great idea. Like, this is not a... You're not buying a depressed company that this, you're hoping the stock will go up, okay? But the contradictory thing is also thinking this person will never change. That if we get married, that it'll prevent them from changing.

Mel Robbins 11:59 Oh, I see exactly why these are the same thing.

James Sexton 12:02 Right. Because it's the feeling of, "Hey, you know, like, this is so good." Like, the sex is so good, and our companionship is so good, and our conversation is so good, and our whole vibe together is so good. Like, if we get married, we're gonna... It's like building a wall around this thing, and it's gonna keep it amazing, you know? And that's, this is what we have to do. We'll shore up all the defenses against the world, and we'll- nothing will change. We'll just be happy and having sex and having it great, just like we are right now, forever.

Mel Robbins 12:27 [laughs]

James Sexton 12:27 And, like, that's just ridiculous. Like, there's nothing, there's no way to have... I mean, maybe when people died in their 30s and 40s that was possible, because you had a short window of time. But the truth is, like, to say, "Hey, I'm gonna be with somebody 30, 40, 50 years in this very intense, intimate relationship, and, you know, it'll never change," like, that's insane. We're gonna ch- Our bodies change. Our goals change. The, the pressures we're... The society around us is constantly changing. Technology's changing. So how would you think that a contract we sign with the government about our relationship is gonna prevent it from eroding or having any of the, like, natural things that happen to our bodies, to our lives, to every other relationship we have?

Mel Robbins 13:12 So is there a better question to ask yourself, knowing how much change is gonna hit you? You know what I'm saying?

James Sexton 13:21 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 13:21 Like, so if you could grab every young couple-

James Sexton 13:24 Yeah

Mel Robbins 13:24 ... by the shoulders-

James Sexton 13:25 Yeah

Mel Robbins 13:25 ... who's in that moment where they're like, "I think this is my person. You're my favorite person now-"

James Sexton 13:30 Yeah, yeah

Mel Robbins 13:30 ... and I'm feeling the pressure," or, "I really have always wanted to get married-"

James Sexton 13:34 Yeah

Mel Robbins 13:34 ... or, "All my friends are getting married-"

James Sexton 13:36 Yeah

Mel Robbins 13:36 ... or, "I'm the only single one," or, "I've been divorced for too long and I wanna try this-"

James Sexton 13:40 Yeah

Mel Robbins 13:40 ... like, is there a question that you wish couples or people personally would just stop and ask themselves the true question?

James Sexton 13:49 I think everything is, what little things can we do to stay connected? And I don't think it's that hard. Like, I think you can dedicate 10 minutes a week to the upkeep of a relationship and stay out of

James Sexton 14:04 my office a lot of the time. Like, I genuinely believe that if you spent 10 minutes a week just saying to your partner, "What did I do this week? Tell me three things I did this week that made you feel loved," I, I think you'd be surprised at the answer. Like, I think you, you think you know the answer, but you'd be surprised. Like, I think if your husband, if, if you s- if he said to you, "What are three things I did this week that made you feel loved?" The practical, actual answers, you might not be able to predict those. Like, he might not have been able to guess in advance what they are, because little things make us feel loved. And by the way, if you ha- if you have courage, and you go into this transaction saying, "Hey, we're gonna not hear this defensively."

Mel Robbins 14:50 Yeah.

James Sexton 14:50 Like, we're gonna speak honestly, and we're gonna hear in a non-defensive way. Then you can ask another question, which is, "Where did I miss the mark this week? What are three things I could have done better this week? What were three things I did this week that made you feel less than loved or less than seen?" You can have fun with it and say, "What are three things I did this week that made you wanna have sex with me?" Like, "What were three things this week that I did that turned you on?" By the way, the answer's bonkers. Absolutely bonkers. Like-

Mel Robbins 15:17 Like what?

James Sexton 15:17 As a heterosexual man, when I've asked that question, it's the weirdest things. It's like, oh, you were, the dogs came in from outside and you were like, you know, kinda toweling them off, and the way they were looking at you. And like, that made you wanna have sex with me? Like, here I am-

Mel Robbins 15:31 Where were the dogs? [laughs]

James Sexton 15:32 I'm trying to get eight-pack abs. And, and meanwhile, this is what makes you, like-

Mel Robbins 15:37 Huh

James Sexton 15:37 ... like, feel... But it really... Like, the things that make us-

Mel Robbins 15:40 I understand, 'cause I, I... Honestly, when you said, "What makes you feel..." I was thinking to myself, well, if Chris asked me that, while I was here working, he was with his friends skiing.

James Sexton 15:52 Okay.

Mel Robbins 15:52 And he took our two dogs, and so he spent the day, you know-

James Sexton 15:56 Yeah

Mel Robbins 15:56 ... hiking up the mountain-

James Sexton 15:57 Yeah

Mel Robbins 15:57 ... and skiing down.

James Sexton 15:58 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 15:58 The dogs were chasing him.

James Sexton 15:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 16:00 He sent me photos.

James Sexton 16:01 Right, right.

Mel Robbins 16:02 And I felt so loved-

James Sexton 16:04 Right

Mel Robbins 16:05 ... that he remembered me in the middle of that-

James Sexton 16:07 Yeah

Mel Robbins 16:07 ... and sent me that in the middle of the day.

James Sexton 16:08 Yeah. And see, and you identify what that really was-

Mel Robbins 16:12 Yeah

James Sexton 16:12 ... which it wasn't just the thing, it's what's underneath it.

Mel Robbins 16:14 Yes.

James Sexton 16:15 Like that he thought, "Oh, this is so good. I wanna share this with her."

Mel Robbins 16:20 Yes.

James Sexton 16:20 Like, and that's what I mean about you're my favorite person. Like, all that is, is just staying a little bit connected and conscious. Like, what did that cost? Nothing.

Mel Robbins 16:30 Nothing.

James Sexton 16:30 It costs nothing.

Mel Robbins 16:31 It costs nothing.

James Sexton 16:31 And we get so fixated on these grand gestures. Like, you know, oh, love is about, like, these grand, "I'm gonna plan a birthday party. I'm gonna make it huge." And listen, there's value in grand gestures, but, like, day-to-day things like that, that's the thing. And it, by the way, it works in both directions. Like, I guarantee there's some little thing you do that you may not even think is that big of a deal, but that's the thing that makes him feel deeply connected, valued, seen, understood, safe, like emotionally, and all. Like, even just the fact that he's, you know, you know he loves the dogs as much as you. Because the shared connection of things you love, like whether that's your children, whether it's companion animals, whether it's an activity, whether it's a friend group. There's something about knowing, like, oh, this person feels this as deeply as I do.

Mel Robbins 17:23 Mm.

James Sexton 17:23 This person feels this depth of love and connection for... I mean, animals for me is a big thing. I'm a dog person. But, like, there's something so beautiful about sharing that with someone and knowing, oh, it's okay I'm away, 'cause this person loves the dogs as much as I do, and panders to them as much as I do, and will send me photos, and will, you know, do all the little things that I do when I'm out so that, that, you know, I know that the dogs feel safe and loved. To me, like, that, that is so easy to just articulate to each other and remind each other. Like, I don't think it takes the magic away to know that and to hear that. Like, I think if Chris heard you say, "Do you know how special that made me feel? Do you know how beautiful that was?" Like, "Do you know how much more that makes me love you and feel seen by you when you did that?" I think you'd be like I was just taking a picture of the dogs.

Mel Robbins 18:13 [laughs]

James Sexton 18:13 Like, but, but meanwhile, like, it's not the thing, it's, it's what's underneath. It's what it's emblematic of, and I, I feel like so many of us have so many of those things

Mel Robbins 18:23 Yeah, but we don't say it

James Sexton 18:24 ... and, and they're good and bad. Like, like, if you're the kind of person like me, I like all the dishes out of the sink by the end of the day. Like, I'm very... And I like doing dishes, 'cause unlike the practice of law, there's, like, a middle, an end, and you're done.

Mel Robbins 18:36 [laughs]

James Sexton 18:36 And it's like, oh, everything's clean, whereas with cases, it's, like, I could work-

Mel Robbins 18:39 Yes

James Sexton 18:39 ... 24 hours a day and there'd still be more to do. It's not about, like, leaving the sink full of dirty dishes. It's about what do those symbolize?

Mel Robbins 18:48 Mm.

James Sexton 18:48 That symbolizes you know that I like things a certain way, and it's not that important to you. You assume I'm gonna take care of this thing and that, you know, you don't have to... Like, it's, it's always the thing under the thing. And if, if early on in a relationship when there's still all this abundance of goodwill, and connection, and optimism, if that's when you say, "Hey, let's figure out how to keep this here with these little, tiny, practical discussions, communications." Again, whether it's an email we send each other once a week with that list, or whether it's we go for a walk and it's, like, our walk and talk once a week and we do this, I think those kinds of practical little things are the way you stay connected, period.

Mel Robbins 19:34 Well, just to make sure as you were listening or you were watching here on YouTube that you got just those two simple questions. The first one was, what are three ways that I made you feel loved?

James Sexton 19:43 Made you feel loved.

Mel Robbins 19:44 Yes. And the second one was, what are three ways where I missed the mark?

James Sexton 19:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:48 That's it.

James Sexton 19:49 And, and you might wanna throw in, you know, here are three ways you made me feel loved this week.

Mel Robbins 19:54 Mm.

James Sexton 19:54 Like, just to... 'Cause again, I'm a, I'm a believer in that positive reinforcement.

Mel Robbins 19:58 Abso- Well, y- you don't beat your dog into-

James Sexton 20:01 Yeah

Mel Robbins 20:02 ... becoming well-behaved.

James Sexton 20:03 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:03 You love them into it.

James Sexton 20:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:05 You reward good behavior.

James Sexton 20:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:06 This is, like, basic, this is the basic stuff, but we don't do it. We start with, "This is what you did wrong," you know what I mean?

James Sexton 20:12 Right.

Mel Robbins 20:12 Like, you're like, "Ah."

James Sexton 20:13 Right, and the entry point in the conversation's so important because there's so many couples, for example, that, you know, there's, there's, uh, something I hear all the time, particularly from men is like, "Oh, we don't have as much sex as we used to. We used to have so much s-" Okay. So, if you walk into your wife and say, "You know, we're just not having sex as much as we used to," you know the response you're gonna, "Well, you're not here. And when you're here, you're in a terrible mood." "Well, I'm in a terrible mood because work is so..." Now, where are we going? We're going nowhere good. Like, no one's walking out of that conversation going, "Let's have more sex." Everyone's walking out of conversation going, "Yeah, this is exactly why we're not having more sex." Whereas, if you entered that conversation with, "God, you know, I was driving down the street the other day, and I remem- remember when we were first dating and we went away to that, like, cheap B&B, you know, that we didn't, like, have the money to afford? And we were supposed to go do it, and all, we ended up staying in bed the whole day. Like, remember? God, that, I was just thinking about that today. Like, that was so... You know, like, when we were so connected physically, I just love that about..." Okay. Now-

Mel Robbins 21:05 Now you're like, "Let's book the hotel."

James Sexton 21:06 Let's book, right. Like, you, 'cause what am I doing? I'm talking about something weird d- we did at some... That this was us, and it's a version of us. Let's visit it for a second. Wasn't it great?

Mel Robbins 21:17 Well, here's what I love about that.

James Sexton 21:18 What are we doing different?

Mel Robbins 21:18 Here's what I love about that. You can use nostalgia and going back-

James Sexton 21:23 Sure

Mel Robbins 21:23 ... to a better time-

James Sexton 21:25 Sure

Mel Robbins 21:25 ... as a reference point to remind both of you-

James Sexton 21:29 Yeah

Mel Robbins 21:29 ... of what you miss-

James Sexton 21:32 Yeah

Mel Robbins 21:32 ... and something that's underneath all these little things that have led to all this discontent, and disconnection-

James Sexton 21:39 Yeah

Mel Robbins 21:39 ... and what therapists-

James Sexton 21:40 Yeah

Mel Robbins 21:40 ... Terry Real calls normal marital rage and, uh-

James Sexton 21:44 Yeah. Yeah

Mel Robbins 21:44 ... and, and hostility, I think he call... What's he call it? Normal marital hostility? Yeah, it's called normal marital resentment.

James Sexton 21:50 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 21:51 That is just about the disconnection because I think the resentment comes from knowing deep down you started in a different place. And for-

James Sexton 21:58 Yeah

Mel Robbins 21:58 ... I think for a lot of people, you just don't know how to get back.

James Sexton 22:02 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:02 And you think since it feels so off-

James Sexton 22:05 Yeah

Mel Robbins 22:06 ... what's right in front of your nose is what you're pointing out.

James Sexton 22:08 Yeah. Well, we've been told it's supposed to be easy, too. I think that we're constantly barraged in media with examples of just effortless love, and I think that there is an aspect of love that's utterly effortless. Like, love is an emotion, but love's a verb, you know?

Mel Robbins 22:25 What does that mean?

James Sexton 22:25 Love's a verb. I mean, love is an emotion. It's a feeling, but it's a verb. Like, to love someone is to act with love for them.

Mel Robbins 22:32 Mm.

James Sexton 22:32 Like, like, it's, it's a verb. It's a thing you do. So it's not just something you feel, it's something you act upon and, and to act with love towards someone. And so the acting with love towards someone, loving someone actively, the act of loving them requires, A, some understanding of them and their blind spots. Like, what would be wrong with sitting down with your partner at the start of a relationship and saying, "Look, w- we're gonna get in a fight some point. It's probably gonna be my fault. I'm gonna say something stupid. I say dumb things all the time, so we're definitely gonna have an argument at some point. When we do, what kind of person are you? Do you, like, need a minute? Should I let it kinda, like, air out because if I, if I try to force the conversation, we're gonna have a big argument? Or are you the, like, we cannot go to bed angry, we gotta work this out, we have to talk about this tonight?" Because the time to learn that is not when you're in a fight.

Mel Robbins 23:27 [laughs]

James Sexton 23:28 Like, the time to learn that is when there's this abundance of connection and optimism between the two of you. And then when that moment comes to have the presence of mind, when you have a conflict, to go, "Okay, we knew this was gonna happen, and this is how we talked about we're gonna try to navigate this together." Again, like, everything I'm proposing anybody do in their relationship is free, and it usually doesn't take more than a few minutes. And by the way, what you said about nostalgia, I think nostalgia's a powerful tool, but it's not just nostalgia, it's also framing. Because there are ways to effectively manipulate the emotional state of your spouse-

Mel Robbins 24:06 Please tell us

James Sexton 24:06 ... for their benefit, right?

Mel Robbins 24:08 Please tell us. How do I do-

James Sexton 24:09 Well, because when you think of, as a lawyer, my job is to manipulate people's emotional state. That's my job. Like, I want the judge to like my client. I want my client to feel safe. I want the other side to feel scared I want the court reporter to like me, I want the, the court officer to like me, 'cause they're gonna go back in chambers with the judge and I want them to go, "Sexton's a really good lawyer." I don't want them to go, "That Sexton's so arrogant." So I gotta be real. I want everyone... Not everybody can help me, but damn near everybody can hurt me. So I'm gonna do my best in that courtroom to manipulate everyone's emotional state and have no one think I'm doing it.

Mel Robbins 24:36 Well, here's the other thing, though. When you're doing it-

James Sexton 24:40 Yeah

Mel Robbins 24:41 ... you're very authentically intentional.

James Sexton 24:44 100%.

Mel Robbins 24:45 Because that's what you actually want.

James Sexton 24:47 100%. The, and by the way-

Mel Robbins 24:48 So, you know, 'cause people hear the word manipulate, but what you're actually being is you're being super strategic, because you do want the court officer to think you're an excellent lawyer.

James Sexton 24:54 Listen, I manipulate the screw 'cause I want the thing to be screwed into the wall.

Mel Robbins 24:58 Yes.

James Sexton 24:58 Like, manipulation is not in and of itself anything nefarious.

Mel Robbins 25:02 Yes.

James Sexton 25:02 Like, what, when, you know, a, a, an example I- I've given before is, um, so I, you know, I'm a trial lawyer, so I try to be, like, clean shaven. I don't get to have that, like, oops, I didn't know I was sexy stubble that's so popular. So I have to, like, be clean shaven. But on the weekends, I like to not shave. Like, it is a couple days off from it, I don't have to be in court, so it's great. I don't wear a tie and I don't shave on the weekends. By, like, the second day, by Sunday, I have, like, scruff and it's kind of coarse.

Mel Robbins 25:28 Yep.

James Sexton 25:29 And I was dating a woman who had very sensitive skin.

Mel Robbins 25:31 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 25:31 And any time I would, like, go to kiss her, she would go, like, "Oh, God," like, "your beard's so scratchy." And m- immediately in me, I went, like, in my head, like, you know, like, "All right, so now I gotta shave on the weekends too when I see you?" That relationship didn't work out, not surprisingly. Not for that reason, but it didn't work out. My next relationship, she had the exact same issue. She, she had sensitive skin. But her response, her way of handling it was I would shave, and she would c- invariably come up and go, "God, I love it when you're clean shaven." Like, it's like, "You remind me of, like, Jon Hamm, like, with Don Draper in Mad Men," you know? Dude, I would shave three times a day.

Mel Robbins 26:09 [laughs]

James Sexton 26:09 I would, I would constantly, I would shave and I'd be like, "Oh, I just shaved today." And she'd be like, "Oh my God, I love it." Okay, what did she do? What did she do but manipulate me in a positive way? Like, all she was doing was say, instead of framing it as something I'm doing wrong, she framed it as, "Here's this opposite thing you do that, oh, I love it." And now, I, I wanna please my partner. I want my partner to feel good about me and think I'm sexy and think I'm... So of course I'm gonna wanna move towards that-

Mel Robbins 26:39 Right

James Sexton 26:39 ... and not pull away from it. So a lot of it is about framing. Nostalgia's a very powerful tool, but it's really, like, how do we frame what it is we're trying to accomplish here?

Mel Robbins 26:49 And really focusing often on the things that are going well-

James Sexton 26:54 Yeah

Mel Robbins 26:54 ... and that you like, and tripling down-

James Sexton 26:57 Yeah

Mel Robbins 26:57 ... on what they're doing well.

James Sexton 26:58 Because, I mean, let's be honest, the world is, like, constantly criticizing us. And even constructive criticism's criticism.

Mel Robbins 27:06 Mm.

James Sexton 27:06 Like, and it doesn't feel great-

Mel Robbins 27:09 Mm

James Sexton 27:09 ... to have this person who's supposed to be your favorite person, and you're their favorite person, and they're criticizing you. Like, everything is criticizing you. Like, what's right in this connection very often is the cure for what's feeling wrong in it.

Mel Robbins 27:24 Mm.

James Sexton 27:24 And criticism is rarely the path there.

Mel Robbins 27:27 If you really think about kind of all those little mistakes, si-

James Sexton 27:31 Mm

Mel Robbins 27:31 ... kind of like a mechanic that can tell you what's gonna go wrong with the car, what do you feel are the list of mistakes that people make in long-term relationships-

James Sexton 27:44 Yeah

Mel Robbins 27:44 ... that lead to divorce, or lead to all the problems that we may not realize? And I realize that you've already said that underneath it all-

James Sexton 27:52 Yeah

Mel Robbins 27:53 ... is disconnection, but what are those mistakes that we need to really know about?

James Sexton 28:00 Yeah, I mean, I think if you start with where are we when we meet and fall in love?

Mel Robbins 28:04 Mm.

James Sexton 28:04 We fall in love super fast. I mean, we, we really connect with the person so instantaneously. And then we, we fall apart the same way we go bankrupt, which is very slowly and then all at once.

Mel Robbins 28:17 Mm.

James Sexton 28:18 You know? It's like this little tiny little bit, little bit, vroom, off the cliff.

James Sexton 28:22 And so I think it's the same thing with falling out of love. And so the big relationship killers are infidelity, financial impropriety, you know, outright deception. Like, and that's huge. Like, I, I would say a good 85% of the divorces that I'm involved in, infidelity has some role in it.

Mel Robbins 28:40 Why do you think that is?

James Sexton 28:41 Because I think we have a human, the same reason why so many people wanna get married. We have a human desire to connect to another person. I think we're social creatures. W- this is something in us. Like, we want to connect with another person. We, we need desperately to, to be interested and interesting, and we want to feel loved. We want physical connection with another person. We want the attention that comes with physical connection. You know, we want the... I, I think we, whether it's marriage and the early days of marriage or dating, or the early days of infidelity, it's not just the other person that we kind of fall for, it's also who we feel like when we're with them. You know? Like, you stand a little taller when someone sees you as so beautiful or so handsome. Like, you, you feel like a version of yourself. Like, everyone I talk to in my office who's had affairs, very often they'll say, like, "Look, I, I love my spouse. I never stopped loving my spouse. But, like, my spouse doesn't find me beautiful or handsome anymore. Like, nobody, you know, like... And, and I've sto- and then I met this person, and, like, I'm fascinating to them. I, they tell me how beautiful I am or how handsome I am, and I actually feel that. Like, I feel that way." Because it's so lovely to be told, you know, "You're so wonderful. I'm enjoying being w-" And even just the two of us right now talking to each other, there's something so beautiful about, like, "Oh, what you're saying is so interesting. I'm enjoying talking to you."

Mel Robbins 30:11 Mm.

James Sexton 30:11 Like, that's such a lovely exchange. So it's a natural human... Like, if you think about, like, the seven deadly sins-

Mel Robbins 30:18 Right

James Sexton 30:19 ... you know? All they really are is, like, seven very normal human things taken to the wrong level. Like, we wanna eat. Okay, gluttony. We, we, we need intimate connection with another person. Lust. You know, we get angry when someone hurts us. Wrath. Like, if you look at those things, all it is is a normal human thing weaponized. So I, I think that's where we, you know, we lose the plot in that we, we just forget... Like, the, the most common thing, again, is just that disconnection, and that disconnection can be in the form of, "I'm disconnected from the me you made me feel like."

Mel Robbins 30:55 Yes.

James Sexton 30:55 Which is a me problem, by the way.

Mel Robbins 30:57 Which typically, by the way, I'm sure you see this, is that when you have a relationship where there's been infidelity-

James Sexton 31:04 Yeah

Mel Robbins 31:04 ... and the person who's cheating is being, is feeling seen-

James Sexton 31:09 Yeah

Mel Robbins 31:09 ... and feeling like they can stand taller and feeling like they're interesting.

James Sexton 31:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:13 The person who's being cheated on is like, "Well, I wanted that, too, in our relationship, you asshole." Like, "Why?" Like-

James Sexton 31:20 Right

Mel Robbins 31:20 ... "I was missing that, too."

James Sexton 31:21 Right.

Mel Robbins 31:21 And so you can see-

James Sexton 31:23 Yeah

Mel Robbins 31:23 ... that the disconnection and the lack of feeling cared about-

James Sexton 31:27 Right. Right

Mel Robbins 31:28 ... is a pro- It's happening for both of them.

James Sexton 31:30 Yeah. It's happening for both of them, and there were all of these moments where you had, like, a last clear chance to steer out of that. But there's, like, an opportunity for people if they'd communicated early on. Like, "Hey, I'm not feeling... Like, I feel like my eye is wandering. I don't want my eye to wander." Like, I wanna be good at this job, right? Like, when you marry someone, you're signing on for a job. Like, it's wonderful, it's bliss, all those things, but it's also a job. It's got a job description, you know? Like, I'm your... And by the way, it's an insane job description. Like, you're gonna be my best friend, best co-parent, best roommate, best travel partner. Be- Like, wow, really? Like, that's a big list. You found one person that can do all of that? We've convinced people that, no, no, this is your person, and they should be the best at everything. And if they're not, by the way, maybe your soulmate's out there and you missed the boat, and you gotta go find that person because life is supposed to be like a Hallmark movie, you know?

Mel Robbins 32:25 I, I feel like anybody that's in a relationship right now-

James Sexton 32:28 Yeah

Mel Robbins 32:28 ... is leaning in.

James Sexton 32:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:29 'Cause it's easy to feel like roommates.

James Sexton 32:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:31 It's easy to fall into a lull.

James Sexton 32:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:34 There's other people all around you. You actually

Mel Robbins 32:37 have a chapter in your book, How to Stay in Love, chapter 19. If we were designing an infidelity-generating machine, it would be Facebook, Instagram-

James Sexton 32:49 Yeah

Mel Robbins 32:49 ... YouTube-

James Sexton 32:50 Yeah

Mel Robbins 32:50 ... social media.

James Sexton 32:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:51 This is page 114. "If you're vaguely unhappy with your relationship or marriage, and especially if you're more than vaguely unhappy with it, stay away from social media. The vast majority of what you'll find there is unhappiness masked as happiness. It will fuck with your head, your heart, and your relationship." And you talk all about how social media is the single greatest breeding ground ever for infidelity. Nothing that has come before, not swingers clubs, key parties, chat rooms, workplace temptation, Ashley Madison, Tinder, Grindr. No, no, no, no, not even porn comes within 1,000 miles.

James Sexton 33:35 Yeah, I stand by that.

Mel Robbins 33:36 Why?

James Sexton 33:37 Because it's just a perfect storm of, of attacks on the institution of a monogamous marriage. Like, it, it... A, you have a innocuous reason you should be using this technology.

Mel Robbins 33:54 Oh, hey, you gotta cover.

James Sexton 33:55 And it's not that I'm like-

Mel Robbins 33:55 You're like, "I don't have time for a boyfriend or else." Yes

James Sexton 33:56 ... yeah, oh, I have to. I'm on it for work, or I wanted to see what this person's up to, or, oh, the Facebook Group of blah, blah, blah is, you know, for our kids' thing. Or, like, there's a million reasons you'd be on your phone that are totally innocuous.

Mel Robbins 34:08 Right. Unlike a strip club.

James Sexton 34:09 Unlike a strip club. Or if, for example, I think that one of the women at my... one of the moms at my son's soccer practice is attractive. If the only entry point I have for talking to her would be walking up to her at practice, it's not as threatening because you can't really do that without it being... But now, while we follow each other on social media because we both are part of that group that is a group chat that, you know. And now, I also see her vacation pictures, and now I, I might innocuously say to her, "Oh, I saw you guys went to Tulum. Where did you stay? We're thinking about going." And now I'm talking to you, and I'm talking to you, by the way, privately. Like, I'm in your DMs. We're talking. So it's not only, like, not... It's not like approaching you at the soccer game. It's like approaching you alone in a restaurant. Like, and we're just the two of us talking, and no one can see what we're saying. You're just creating this perfect storm for people. And by the way, the performative self. Like, all, anyone posts is the best pictures of themselves. And when, and when are you on your phone looking at social media? Is it when you're having, like, the greatest day or the greatest moment? No. You're on the subway, you're on the toilet.

Mel Robbins 35:14 [laughs]

James Sexton 35:14 You're bored, right? You're just bored. You're living your gag reel, and you're looking at everyone's greatest hits. And, and you're supposed to walk out of that transaction feeling deeper connected into your real-life relationship? No. It's a total distraction, but it's a distraction that is gonna create all kinds of enticements and connections that really are not gonna be good for your marriage, and you have total plausible deniability if your spouse has any question about why are you on your phone. There's a million reasons we'd all be on our phone. So yeah, it's a perfect storm. Like, as divorce lawyers, we owe the people who made these platforms a debt of tremendous gratitude because they have given us job security.

Mel Robbins 35:51 So if you're in a committed partnership-

James Sexton 35:53 Yeah

Mel Robbins 35:54 ... what is the kinda ground rules around social media for yourself-

James Sexton 36:00 Yeah

Mel Robbins 36:00 ... and for your partner?

James Sexton 36:02 I, I like how you framed that question because I think a lot of this has to do with what are you doing.

Mel Robbins 36:07 Yes.

James Sexton 36:07 Like, because I think most people who are married would like to have a happy marriage. So just like most people would like to be in good shape, the question is not, "What do you want?" It's, "What are you willing to trade for it?" Like, what are you willing to give up in exchange for that thing? So I think the first question we have to ask ourselves is, "Am I using this technology in a way that if my spouse was standing here, I would use it differently?" Like, would I be following these people if my spouse was watching who I follow?

Mel Robbins 36:41 Mm.

James Sexton 36:41 I'm not suggesting we have to monitor each other's social media. That's a, I think, a very personal decision couples have to make. But I think the best entry point is yourself, right? 'Cause I have much more control over myself than anything else. So I think starting with, would I be having this communication with this person in this specific way if my spouse was part of the conversation? And sometimes it's very obvious that the answer is no. Like, I, I genuinely think the cure for the entry points of infidelity is monitoring your own behavior. Like, if my spouse was standing next to me, would I be talking to this person this way? Would I be looking at them this way? Would my body language be what it is if my spouse was standing here? And if the answer is no, okay, then just notice that. Notice that. I'm not saying you have to do it differently, but notice that because you realize, hey, this is a problem. Like, I, I know I keep bringing things back to, like, food and fitness, but, you know, like, I can't... I can control my food environment better than my brain.

Mel Robbins 37:42 Yes.

James Sexton 37:42 Like, if there's potato chips around, I'm eating them, so I know, okay, I can't have that in the house, or if I have it in the house, it's with the understanding that, oh, yeah, I'm gonna annihilate those potato chips at some point in one sitting, you know? And that's okay. Like, listen, life is to be enjoyed. But if you... Because discipline is trading what you want now for what you want most. And so what do I want most? I want a long-term satisfying relationship. I wanna be happy in this relationship, I want my partner to be happy in this relationship.

Mel Robbins 38:08 Sure.

James Sexton 38:09 I, I want both of us to feel fulfilled, I want both of us to feel loved. Like, that's what I-

Mel Robbins 38:14 Let's say that you're at that point in your relationship where as the person who's here with us right now is listening and having-

James Sexton 38:21 Yeah

Mel Robbins 38:21 ... a panic attack-

James Sexton 38:22 Yeah

Mel Robbins 38:22 ... 'cause you realize you're in that phase of the relationship that every long-term relationship goes through.

James Sexton 38:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:32 You've had the fairy tale.

James Sexton 38:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:34 Now you're in maintenance.

James Sexton 38:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:37 Now you're noticing the resentment-

James Sexton 38:39 Yeah

Mel Robbins 38:39 ... is hitting.

James Sexton 38:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:41 You're disconnected.

James Sexton 38:43 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:43 You're not having sex.

James Sexton 38:44 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:44 You're annoyed at your favorite person all the time.

James Sexton 38:46 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:46 You're wondering if there's somebody better.

James Sexton 38:48 Yeah, yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:49 You wish it di- it wasn't this way.

James Sexton 38:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 38:51 But it's starting to feel like, will we ever get back? What are some of the things-

James Sexton 38:56 Yeah

Mel Robbins 38:57 ... that you should do immediately?

James Sexton 39:00 Yeah. I mean, I think in, in, in 25 years of practicing matrimonial law, what I'd say to you is you're where most people are who are married. Like, that's where you are. You're where most people are. And you probably got there by the succession of small choices that created this, what I would call, like, a downward spiral. This spiral where, you know, well, why should I do that? You don't do that. Well, why should I do that? She doesn't do that. Well, why should... And the good news is wherever you are, whether that started just recently or whether you are down in the valley, right? Like, it has just been, I don't remember w- what it was like and what it felt like when we were in that great place. You can reverse that spiral.

Mel Robbins 39:45 How?

James Sexton 39:45 It works the

James Sexton 39:46 same. It works the same in the opposite direction. How is, is the same way that it went wrong. Small. Small actions. Like, start small. Start with leave a note. Leave a note. You're leaving in the morning for work? Leave a note. "It was really fun hanging out with you last night. I married the prettiest girl in the world." Or, you know, um, "Hey, thanks for, you know, uh, thanks for taking care of that, you know, thing for me yesterday and calling the cable company. It really means a lot when my big strong man does things like that." Whatever. Like, some little courtesy or kindness. Costs nothing, takes five seconds to do. So-

Mel Robbins 40:23 You know what you also did? 'Cause you're really good at manipulating-

James Sexton 40:26 Yeah

Mel Robbins 40:26 ... and being strategic.

James Sexton 40:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:28 You reminded me-

James Sexton 40:30 Yeah

Mel Robbins 40:30 ... in that note-

James Sexton 40:31 Yeah

Mel Robbins 40:32 ... of how I felt-

James Sexton 40:33 Yeah

Mel Robbins 40:34 ... when we first met.

James Sexton 40:35 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:36 Prettiest girl in the world.

James Sexton 40:37 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:37 Strongest guy.

James Sexton 40:38 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:38 Best person on the planet.

James Sexton 40:40 Yeah. And why not, why not... Like, that's so easy throughout the day. Like, I, I, I tell a lot of my male friends, "If you text your wife in the middle of the day with a song that was, like, a song important to you and you send a link to that song and you go, 'I heard this song in the coffee shop today and I thought of you.'" Like, that, that's an incredible feeling. Like, it's an intoxicating, wonderful feeling. Like, and, and it doesn't take much to just bring someone back to that place. And by the way, the person's initial reaction might be, "What, what inspired that?" Like, where... 'Cause if you're down far enough in the valley-

Mel Robbins 41:14 Right, right

James Sexton 41:14 ... you kinda go like... But it's not hard to just say, "You know what? I just, I feel like I have to do a better job of, like, telling you these things. I think of it a lot, but I sometimes don't say it out loud."

Mel Robbins 41:24 Hmm.

James Sexton 41:25 Like, who would not want to hear that? Like, how much would it take, and how much would it cost? Nothing. It would cost nothing. To write your spouse an email, "Here's 10 things I love about you." 10 things. And by the way, you're, it's not just for them. Like, they'll love reading that. But also, like, it's for you. Like, remind yourself, why did you choose this person? Like, there's still so much beauty in this person. There's still so much beauty in you. Like, why wouldn't you take a moment and just enjoy the warmth of that? Like, it's right there. It's f- Like, no one's gonna advertise this to you 'cause it's free. [laughs] You don't need to buy a book to learn it. You don't need to take a course. There's nothing I can sell you here. Like, this is just, you have it. It's right there. It's right in front of you. You have to actively steer away from it at some point. And again, and it's never too late to change that cycle.

Mel Robbins 42:21 Well, I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about the person who hears that.

James Sexton 42:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:27 The writing the email of 10 things, and I think we can get so sequestered in our corners-

James Sexton 42:34 Yeah

Mel Robbins 42:35 ... that you, your immediate reaction is either I can't think of 10, or why aren't they writing it to me?

James Sexton 42:41 Yeah. Well-

Mel Robbins 42:42 Or what if they don't respond?

James Sexton 42:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:44 Or, you know, and I think it's-

James Sexton 42:44 So those are three separate great questions, so and I think I would answer them separately. So the first one is, what if I can't think of 10 things I love about this person? Then maybe you should consider getting divorced.

Mel Robbins 42:55 What?

James Sexton 42:56 I mean, if you, if you're telling me you're married to a person and you can't think of 10 things you love about them, there are eight billion people in the world. Maybe you're married to the wrong one. Like, sometimes happily ever after means happily ever after separately. Like, I'm divorced. My ex-wife is one of my favorite people. She's amazing. I love her very much. There are a lot of people I love that I wouldn't wanna be married to. Actually, all of them.

Mel Robbins 43:22 [laughs]

James Sexton 43:23 All of them, right? Because it's a very specific kind of relationship. If you're telling me I can't think of 10 things, this person I chose out of eight billion other options to be my most intimate partner in life, I can't think of 10 things I love about that person. I... Maybe you should consider a divorce, because that's an insane reality. And by the way, okay, maybe you've grown so far apart. My ex-wife has been remarried for 15 years to an amazing guy who's absolutely nothing like me personality-wise and perfect for her.

Mel Robbins 43:52 [laughs]

James Sexton 43:53 And I have to tell you, I love her, I love him. We're like a weird family, but the truth is, like, God bless. Like, God bless. She found the lid for her pot. Amazing.

Mel Robbins 44:02 [laughs]

James Sexton 44:03 Amazing. I'm so glad. I have to tell you something. I can tell you 10 things I love about my ex-wife. She could tell you 10 things she loves about me. Like, I could tell you 10 things I love about almost anyone in my life. So if you're in a place where you're looking at your spouse and going, "I can't even think of 10 things," then I think go to therapy and really try to answer that question. And then try to answer the question, why would I be married to a person I can't think of 10 things I love about them? So that's-

Mel Robbins 44:26 There you go

James Sexton 44:26 ... question number one you ask. Question number two is, what if they don't do it back for me?

Mel Robbins 44:31 Yeah.

James Sexton 44:32 What if it has...? Okay, that's where it's scary, but what's scarier than that is, well, we just won't even try.

Mel Robbins 44:38 Mm.

James Sexton 44:38 Like, to... I, I understand so well as a human being how vulnerable it feels to express need, and it's hard for me. I, I don't know if it is for you, but it's hard for me being that kind of person to say, "I really need help. I can't do this myself."

Mel Robbins 44:55 Yeah.

James Sexton 44:57 And, and it's humbling. It's getting easier as I age. It's one of the things I actually like best about aging, is that it's okay for me to say, like, "Oh, I need some help with this," or, "Oh, I'm not so good at that."

Mel Robbins 45:06 Yeah.

James Sexton 45:06 "Are you good at that? Can you help me with that? Like, and maybe there's things I'll be able to help you with." Which by the way, at its best is what marriage is.

Mel Robbins 45:12 So true.

James Sexton 45:13 You know, it's about like, hey, how can we, how can we become like complementary pieces to each other and, and to, to, to create this beautiful whole together? So I think that's an amazing opportunity, is to, is to really say to yourself like, "Hey, I'm gonna try. I'm gonna try." And it's brave to try, and it's scary. But like, if you're not scared, it's not brave. Like, it's only brave if you're scared-

Mel Robbins 45:36 Mm

James Sexton 45:36 ... and you do it anyway.

Mel Robbins 45:37 Yeah.

James Sexton 45:37 So I think that most of us, if love is on the line, if our marriage is on the line, like, we can be brave. Like, you believed in Santa Claus for seven years. You can believe in yourself for 15 minutes, you know? Like, just, just, just really like, you know, five, four, three, two, one. Like, go. You know? Like- [laughs] ... just do the thing, you know? So I think try, and at least that way you'll know where you stand. Because if you've now made a concerted effort where I... You've tried a few times to really reach out to this person in a consistent way and create some connection between, and it's been rebuffed every time, then I think you're gonna have a much clearer understanding of where you're really at in that relationship, and that might guide you in a direction like my office. I believe some marriages need to end.

Mel Robbins 46:21 Mm.

James Sexton 46:21 I, I genuinely do. I've seen some people very successfully divorce, many of which then go on to find love that is more deep and connected for them and real joy. They, they're better people and they're better parents after their divorce. And I, I think we do the world a disservice to view all divorces as failures.

Mel Robbins 46:38 Mm.

James Sexton 46:39 I, I don't believe it's a failure. I don't believe my divorce was a failure. It produced two amazing children that are now amazing adults. I became a better man by virtue of my connection to her. I'd like to think she would say the same about herself. She went on to find tremendous love in her life. I have, too. There's tremendous value in connecting well, disconnecting bravely and maturely if you can do it.

Mel Robbins 47:03 What did you learn about yourself and about relationships by going through your own divorce?

James Sexton 47:09 My divorce was, you know, very boring because we're both very reasonable people who concede the possibility of our own error, and we fell in love as, like, teenagers basically. We met in college, and we got married at 22 and had a kid at 24, so we were babies. Um, what I learned is that, you know, that there are a lot of people in the world that I love that I wouldn't be appropriately married to.

Mel Robbins 47:33 Mm.

James Sexton 47:33 I also learned that the job description of a husband and of an ex-husband are two different things. I'm a really good ex-husband. I'm a really good father. I'm not a great husband. Like, I don't have the patience. I don't have some of the skills that I think are really good in a husband.

Mel Robbins 47:50 Mm.

James Sexton 47:50 Like, I think a husband is very comfortable sort of like accommodating their will to that of the other, and they're patient in some important ways. And like as an ex-husband and a co-parent, I was great at it. Like, I was consistent, reliable, dependable, good communicator. I'm a good dad. Like, I put my kids first. I always like, you know, still even as adults I, I love them and I make time for them and they're always, you know, my priority. Um, and I always, you know, as an ex-husband, like, had a tremendous love and respect for my co-parent. I always, every Mother's Day, would make sure my kids, you know, had gifts for her. Every birthday, every Christmas I'd make sure they had things for their mom. Then when she got remarried I sat down with her new husband at the time and said like, "Okay, like, I'm gonna... Like, do you wanna get her birthday gift for the boys now? Like, 'cause I don't want them empty-handed. Like, they're gonna feel self-conscious, but I also don't wanna overstep. Like, uh, I'm gonna still do Mother's Day 'cause that's what she is to me for my sons, but maybe you'll get the boys Christmas gifts with her." And like, we had this discussion. He was a divorced guy himself, so we were like... It was this really lovely like, "Oh, how are we gonna shape-shift this dynamic?" So I learned a lot about how pe- You can disconnect in, like, a very beautiful way and, and have a non-traditional kind of family that, you know, is joyful. I, I learned a lot about how divorces don't have to always be the kinds of things that I was handling even at that time. I was already a divorce lawyer at that time.

Mel Robbins 49:16 Mm.

James Sexton 49:16 I, I... And I really thought divorce was always this knock-down, drag-out battle that you need someone like me, and I, I... You don't always need, like... You can do it with a scalpel. You don't always need a chainsaw. Like-

Mel Robbins 49:29 Mm

James Sexton 49:29 ... I'm kind of a chainsaw. And so it was really lovely for me to learn. 'Cause, you know, if you, if you think about divorce, the ones you hear about, like if I go to a cocktail party, I don't go to a lot of cocktail parties, but if I went to a cock- cocktail party and somebody said, "What do you do for a living?" I say, "Well, I'm a divorce lawyer." And they go-

Mel Robbins 49:46 Oh, my God

James Sexton 49:46 ... "My God, you must have stories." And I said, "Oh, my God, have I got one." There was this couple, and they got married when they were quite young. And then, you know, the Venn diagram of their interests kind of didn't intersect as much, and they grew in different directions. And then they amicably divided, you know, their property, and they continued to co-parent their children that they both loved a whole lot. You'd be like, "That is the most boring story ever." Like, I've talked more about my divorce in this conversation than I probably have in the last five years because it's not that interesting. It's two people.

Mel Robbins 50:13 I actually think it's super interesting because it shows that there is a different possibility-

James Sexton 50:17 Right

Mel Robbins 50:18 ... in terms of how you can conduct yourself-

James Sexton 50:20 Right. Right

Mel Robbins 50:20 ... both during it, during the marriage-

James Sexton 50:23 Yeah

Mel Robbins 50:23 ... at the end of the marriage, during the divorce.

James Sexton 50:26 And it's all about normalizing. Like, so much of what I think has gone right in our culture in the last 10 years is normalizing certain things, like-

Mel Robbins 50:32 Mm

James Sexton 50:32 ... normalizing therapy, normalizing mental health issues, nor- We, we need to normalize prenups. We need to normalize what a civil divorce can look like, what a cooperative co-parenting relationship can look like. It does not have to be... 'Cause the kind of people that talk about their divorce constantly are people-

Mel Robbins 50:53 Ugh

James Sexton 50:53 ... who were terribly wounded by it. I understand. It became a formative trauma in their lives, and it became something that everything comes back to. I get that. I've seen a lot of people who've been victimized by that kind of a divorce. But that has now become culturally what we think divorce looks like, and that is the unbelievable minority of divorces. The majority-

Mel Robbins 51:17 Wait a minute. So the minority of divorces-

James Sexton 51:19 Yes

Mel Robbins 51:19 ... are the high-conflict-

James Sexton 51:20 Yes

Mel Robbins 51:20 ... people are destroyed for years after.

James Sexton 51:23 Yes. Yes.

Mel Robbins 51:23 What is the majority?

James Sexton 51:24 The majority is two people that at some point were deeply connected to each other, lost the connection, and now have usually children in common or extended family in common, and they need to end the relationship, but they don't hate each other. Or if they're angry at each other, their love for their children is much greater than their-

Mel Robbins 51:45 Mm

James Sexton 51:45 ... dislike of each other. Like, I always tell people a divorce is like a table. It's got four legs. There's you and your lawyer and the other side and their lawyer. All you need is one of those legs to be off. Doesn't matter how nice and straight the other legs are, that table's falling down. Like, one irrational person or one person with, like, bad-faith intentions is gonna make this into something much uglier than it needs to be.

Mel Robbins 52:07 I wanna finish up the topic of

Mel Robbins 52:10 the signs-

James Sexton 52:11 Yeah

Mel Robbins 52:12 ... and really giving the person listening the just resources or the awareness-

James Sexton 52:21 Yeah

Mel Robbins 52:21 ... so that if there's-

James Sexton 52:23 Yeah

Mel Robbins 52:23 ... a chance for this to spiral back up, you can.

James Sexton 52:27 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:27 You know, based on all your experience, what are the signs-

James Sexton 52:30 Yeah

Mel Robbins 52:31 ... that you are headed for a breakup or for divorce, the ones that you actually see?

James Sexton 52:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:37 Like, 'cause I bet you go to a party or you can walk into a room-

James Sexton 52:40 Yeah

Mel Robbins 52:40 ... and you can literally be like, "In a year."

James Sexton 52:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:43 "Five years."

James Sexton 52:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:44 "They're in trouble."

James Sexton 52:46 What you have to do first is look at your baseline. So, like, look at what it was you did when you were still connected to each other.

Mel Robbins 52:56 Mm.

James Sexton 52:56 Like, how did you interact with each other? How often did you have physical intimacy? How often did you spend time together, just the two of you? What did you do separately, and what did you do together? Because until you look at your baseline, you won't know how far you've drifted from your baseline. Relationships change. People change. Their bodies change. Everything changes. But the question is, is when it ch- did it change by default or by design? Have you ever thought or talked about as a couple why it's changed, and are we both okay with that? Or is it something that one or both of us feel like, "Hey, we might have lost something in that process"? So I think, again, baseline is a really important thing to be thinking about. Then one of the first things I observe when I'm seeing the cracks in a couple, like when I walk into a room or I'm watching, you know, one of those housewife shows and I'm like, "Oh, they're definitely getting divorced and they're definitely getting divorced."

Mel Robbins 53:44 [laughs]

James Sexton 53:44 Like, I often tell people, to me, the surest indicator of a divorce is not anything anyone says. It's a sound, and it's this sound. It's, "Sss." Just that, like, "Sss." Like, when the other person's talking and there's just this, like, "Ugh. Like, what? You know? Yeah, whatever. What? Yeah, okay." Like, why are you bothering me with what you're saying? Or that, like, kind of eye-rolling. Like, it's just those subtle-

Mel Robbins 54:11 Mm

James Sexton 54:11 ... discourtesies and disrespects. It's the tone. It's the body language. Like, that's a huge piece. So I would, uh, when you're looking at signs, look at how you physically relate to each other.

Mel Robbins 54:23 Mm.

James Sexton 54:23 I mean, you've seen couples, I'm sure-

Mel Robbins 54:25 Ugh

James Sexton 54:25 ... where it's like-

Mel Robbins 54:26 I'm like, "Why are they married?"

James Sexton 54:27 Even when they touch each other, it's like... You know, when you're first together, like, you touch, your skin br- And it's like an electric bolt through you of like, "Oh, my God. This person touched me." Then it's like, "Oh, my God. Our legs touched." Like, it's just that-

Mel Robbins 54:39 [laughs]

James Sexton 54:39 I mean, and thank God that passes, or we'd just never get anything done, you know? But it's supposed to sort of pass and become, like, still something comfortable and connected-

Mel Robbins 54:50 Yeah

James Sexton 54:50 ... because all that pers- Maybe you don't like holding hands. That's okay. But maybe they're trying to connect with you.

Mel Robbins 54:55 Yeah.

James Sexton 54:55 So do you wanna connect with them? Like, and if it's that, "I don't like sweaty hands," okay, so put your arm around me. Like, you know, lean in and do something. Like, like, meet each other halfway. There's a lot of these little, tiny physical and verbal disconnections. Like, even just the act of when your spouse is talking to you, if you are on your goddamn phone- Like, that to me, like, watching couples sitting there, one of them is talking and the other one is sort of going through the phone, and you see them doing that, "What? Oh, yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh." Like, all I'm saying to you is you're not important. You're not important. You're not as important as this. And then what do you meet that with? Very often people meet it with, like, they'll either keep going and condone that behavior, or they'll stop and go, "Well, I'll let you finish." Go, "No, no, finish what you were doing on the phone," and now that feels accusatory because that person's like, "Well, no, I was trying to look at this thing." They weren't trying, maybe, to insult you. The two things I say that everybody accuses me of being unromantic, that I actually think are two very romantic sentiments, is one, marriage is a job. It has a set of roles and responsibilities. You signed up for it. You didn't have to take it. There were other positions available, and you chose this one, and you can quit if you want to. You know? And you can go get a different one if you want to. So it's a lot like a job, and it's a job that theoretically you want to be good at because you want happiness, right, in this, in this exchange.

Mel Robbins 56:16 Is there something

Mel Robbins 56:18 that you recommend-

James Sexton 56:19 Yeah

Mel Robbins 56:19 ... in the middle of an argument to just defuse it-

James Sexton 56:22 Yeah

Mel Robbins 56:22 ... or defuse yourself?

James Sexton 56:23 I think the worst time to learn how to fight is when you're in a fight.

Mel Robbins 56:26 [laughs]

James Sexton 56:27 I think in advance there should be some... You, you know, it's almost like what's a safe word. Like, there should be a word that we've agreed in advance is we're ejecting from this conversation, and we'll continue it at another time. Like, we both know where the other one lives. You know? Like, we'll find each other.

Mel Robbins 56:42 [laughs]

James Sexton 56:42 So, like, if you have, like, you know, a phrase, like how about them Mets? Like, something that just has nothing to do with any discussion you're having, that should be the phrase that, like, I don't think this is productive, and I think we're going down a road that's dangerous. Be- and you should agree on it in advance, and you should make a commitment to each other that, listen, I'm not saying that that ejects us out of this conversation for good because that would be a great way to just, you know, it's like a, like you get a, a hall pass in the conversation. We'll never bring it up again.

Mel Robbins 57:10 Right.

James Sexton 57:10 What we're saying is, listen, this will be deferred for 24 hours, or this will be deferred for a maximum of X number of hours or days or whatever it might be. Because you both ba- the corners you back yourself into, you gotta figure out ways to get out of. I mean, think about the commitments you've made to this person. I'm gonna love you, you, and only you for eternity, and you can't make the commitment of, hey, listen, if we're in an argument and one of us feels like this isn't productive or we're feeling really hurt, we're gonna say this phrase, and that phrase will mean we have to call a time out. And two, you know, you can't really love someone, and more importantly, like, you can't really feel someone's love-

Mel Robbins 57:51 Hmm

James Sexton 57:51 ... until you show them a really honest and vulnerable version of yourself. Like, I'm a great performer in a courtroom, you know, and I can present however I need to present. But if in my relationship I am playing the character of, like, the best version of myself and I don't let this person see any of my soft spots or any-

Mel Robbins 58:15 Hmm

James Sexton 58:15 ... of my vulnerabilities or any of the shit I need to work on, any of the things I get wrong, the things I'm afraid of, I'll never feel their love. Like, I'm depriving myself because I'll always have in my head, oh, no, no, if, if they knew me, they wouldn't love me. They love me because they bought the character I'm selling them. So I'm depriving myself by not showing this person these weak, difficult, challenging parts of myself. But here's the thing. If someone is brave enough to show you those things in a fight, if you weaponize those things-

Mel Robbins 58:52 Right

James Sexton 58:52 ... that is a despicable and almost irreparable thing to do to someone because when really what is divorce at its worst but intimacy weaponized? Because intimacy is not sex. Intimacy is the ability to be completely yourself with another person, like, your honest, authentic self with another person. And so to take the vulnerability and the soft spots that a person has shown you in good faith so they could feel connected to you and you guys could trust each other and each feel like you can show each other the soft spots, to, to, in a fight, in a moment of anger, to weaponize that is a really, really awful kind of betrayal. So I, I would always tell people, like, have some ground rules, like no low blows. Like, listen, I like, I like the UFC. I like a good fight. I've trained Brazilian jujitsu for 20 years. Like, on, most of my best friends have broken my nose at some point. I'm telling you, like, have a fair fight. Like, if you have to have a fight, have a f- have an ability to call a time out, and keep it a fair fight.

Mel Robbins 59:55 Yeah.

James Sexton 59:57 There's a couple of sentences you have somewhere in the back of your head that you know if you said them out loud to him, you would reduce him to a pile of tears in the corner.

Mel Robbins 1:00:04 Yes.

James Sexton 1:00:05 And he knows those sentences too about you. He has some sentences he could say that are all of your scaredest, most vulnerable pieces of you, and I know that because you love each other, and you've been together a really long time, and you can't love someone for that duration with that depth and with that much affection without having been vulnerable to that person.

Mel Robbins 1:00:26 Or shitty to them.

James Sexton 1:00:27 Right. But, but the truth is, is having knowledge of what that is, having that ammunition-

Mel Robbins 1:00:33 Hmm

James Sexton 1:00:33 ... is an incredible responsibility.

Mel Robbins 1:00:36 Hmm.

James Sexton 1:00:36 And it's something, it's like having the nuclear codes of the relationship, and, like, keep them locked. Like, don't use them because just like nuclear weapons, like, you get to use them once, and then the whole world blows up. So, like, don't do... I've seen people who in a moment of anger let that fly, and you can't take that back. You can't, you can't bring that in, you know? And so really give more thought in advance to when we disconnect. We do. We disconnect. Like, as a parent, you know, y- who do you love more-

Mel Robbins 1:01:09 Oh, my god

James Sexton 1:01:09 ... than your kids? And when they're in middle school, you're telling me you didn't wanna kill them? Like, I tell my sons all the time, I'm like, "I, I've never disliked anyone as much as I dislike both of you in middle school." And by the way, I know you disliked yourself more than anything in middle school. Like, you'll never meet a human being in their life who goes, "The best years of my life were middle school."

Mel Robbins 1:01:26 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:01:26 It's always the, the happiest person in middle school is miserable. But the truth is, like, you, you love your kids, but you also are like, "Okay, I have to have some ground rules-

Mel Robbins 1:01:35 Yes

James Sexton 1:01:35 ... in how I'm gonna interact with them." Not in... Moments of love, it's easy. It's moments of tension that you have to think about in advance and figure out how to not back yourself into a corner.

Mel Robbins 1:01:47 That's a great framework, thinking about kids or even work. Like, there are those days you wanna just go-

James Sexton 1:01:52 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:01:52 ... on a tear, and if you did, you'd get fired.

James Sexton 1:01:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:01:55 Or you'd cancel yourself.

James Sexton 1:01:56 But isn't it funny how many things about marriage... Like, we put marriage in this weird category, and it's just really another relationship. Like-

Mel Robbins 1:02:04 It is

James Sexton 1:02:04 ... like, you know, I, I, I often use the analogy of dogs, 'cause I love dogs, but I have two senior citizen dogs. I have a 15-year-old and a 16-year-old dog, and I know I'm, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm playing with the house's money at this point. I'm on borrowed time with these guys, and I've had them since they were babies.

Mel Robbins 1:02:17 Receipts are due.

James Sexton 1:02:18 Yeah. And, and I'm, I'm enjoying every minute I have. But I have to tell you, like, I've never once looked at my 15-year-old dog who's deaf and thought, "Dude, I gotta get a puppy."

Mel Robbins 1:02:30 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:02:31 Like, these are... This dog's so old, and it, like, hardly can hear, and I gotta carry it downstairs now. Like, puppies are so cute, and they're fun, and they run around, and we play ball, and they could jog with me. Like, this dog's so old. Dude, I love this dog more than... every day. Like, this, the scent of the dog, it's... Like, this is, I, it... Now, but yet with love, like our romantic partner, it's this constant feeling of like, oh, well, there's a younger model out there, and there's a more compelling model out there. So it's, like, how you do anything is how you do everything. Like, if somebody said to me, "I'll give you..." Well, you have dogs. You have two dogs?

Mel Robbins 1:03:05 Uh-huh.

James Sexton 1:03:05 Okay, so two dogs. All right, so let's, let's try this. All right, if I told you, "I'll give you $100 million for your dogs," you would say no.

Mel Robbins 1:03:17 No.

James Sexton 1:03:18 Okay.

Mel Robbins 1:03:19 Well, I can pay my bills right now.

James Sexton 1:03:20 I applaud you.

Mel Robbins 1:03:20 So that's, like, there's that baseline.

James Sexton 1:03:22 I, I applaud you. Right. So if I said to you, God forbid, not gonna happen, but you have 30 days left with one of your kids no matter what, okay? You only have 30 days. Would you take $100 million then for those 30 days? You're gonna lose them in 30 days anyway. Would you give me a hund- $100 million did I give you for that?

Mel Robbins 1:03:37 No.

James Sexton 1:03:38 Because why?

Mel Robbins 1:03:38 I'm offended-

James Sexton 1:03:38 Because the time would-

Mel Robbins 1:03:40 ... you even asked me

James Sexton 1:03:40 ... the time would even be more precious-

Mel Robbins 1:03:42 Yes

James Sexton 1:03:42 ... knowing that it was so short. Okay, that's love. That's love. That's, that's as good of a definition of love as I could ever come up with. Like, that, that there is something beyond any other kind of value that you attribute to the connection you have to this, no matter how finite it is. Because 100 years from now, no one you love will be here, and no one who loves you will be here. So this is finite. We're losing everything all the time. And I say that as a divorce lawyer for 25 years, and I say it as a hospice volunteer for 20 years. Like, we're losing everything all the time. That's what makes it precious. That's what makes it beautiful. That's what makes it worth paying attention to, because I don't have unlimited time. Guess what? We don't have unlimited time with anything in our life, so why wouldn't we just commit to, like, this much preventative maintenance?

Mel Robbins 1:04:33 Well, you do have this really beautiful chapter later in the book, How to Stay in Love, that's all about writing a letter.

James Sexton 1:04:43 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:04:44 And this is on page 238, and you talk about the power of writing a letter to the person that you're in a relationship with, a really deep personal letter. "Would it be weird to write a letter to someone you've shared a bed with for years, whom you see and talk to dozens of times a day? Even for those who can find the right words when speaking, writing things out may help you to better organize..." I, I... Why am I getting emotional?

James Sexton 1:05:12 I think it's an emotional thought.

Mel Robbins 1:05:12 "To better organize and hence understand what you really want to say, even if you end up not writing the letter to your partner. I know mediators who encourage their clients to come to the first meeting with a letter to their ex-to-be because it, quote, 'lubricates communication,' as one put it to me. If at least some people in the midst of divorce can do that, it should be way easier for those in love, knowing that their partner is receptive to, maybe even hungry for, communication and intimacy. Anything that might ease communication in a divorce should apply far more effectively in a loving relationship. Write a letter to your partner. List at least five things they do that you appreciate. Tell them a few things they do that upset you. Tell them what you are craving but not getting from them. Tell them a few things you are getting and are incredibly grateful for. Tell them a story from your shared history in as much detail as you can that you remember fondly. Maybe write a mini chronicle of your marriage. It's been said that the unexamined life is not worth living. My experience has taught me that the unexamined marriage is not sustainable. So write your spouse a letter. Make it simple or make it detailed, but make it authentic and honest. You love him, right?"

James Sexton 1:06:38 Yeah. Yeah, I, I stand by that. You know, it's... What I didn't say in there, and I think is worth saying is even if you don't give it to your spouse, it's worth writing that letter. Like, I'll share with you, you know, when my mom passed away 10 years ago after a long battle with cancer, we had a complicated relationship, and I remember talking to my therapist about it and saying like, "You know, there's so many things, like, I wanted to say to her-"

Mel Robbins 1:07:05 Mm-hmm

James Sexton 1:07:05 ... "that I didn't get to say." Because it just wasn't... We just... I don't know. It just wasn't... You know, she was so ill, and there was just no opportunity to have that conversation. And he said, you know, "Write her a letter." Like, "Write her a letter and say all the things that you needed to say." So I did. I took the time. I wrote this long letter saying all the things I needed to say, and I brought it into therapy, and I read it out loud, weeping.

Mel Robbins 1:07:30 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:07:32 And then he said, "I'm gonna give you another piece of homework." And I said, "Okay." He said, "Write a letter back from her."

Mel Robbins 1:07:38 Mm.

James Sexton 1:07:39 "And say all the things you needed to hear." That was much harder because it forced me to think about, like, what is it, what is it I needed from this person? Like, what is it I needed to hear to heal? And so even though, like, she never got to read that letter, and even though the letter I wrote from her was from an imagined version of her-

Mel Robbins 1:08:05 Yeah

James Sexton 1:08:06 ... it was one of the most powerful exercises I've ever... And I've, I've since then used that technique in my life when I'm having a really difficult time with a person in my life, where I'll, I'll write a letter of all the things that I feel like I needed to say to them. Often not that I would ever give them. And then I'll write back, like, what is it I needed to hear from them? What is it I want to hear from them? What would be their perfect response to this? And very often, like, it reminds me that the answers to these things are sometimes inside me. Like, like the wisdom you find on mountaintops is the wisdom you brought up there. Because sometimes you just find yourself thinking, like, you know, "What is it I needed her to say?" Because I know I don't have to hear her say it. I knew it. You know, I, I... When I wrote the letter back from my mom, a lot of it was, "Hey, I wasn't mad at you. I've been sick for a really long time." Like-

Mel Robbins 1:08:58 Mm

James Sexton 1:08:59 ... "And I was in pain, and it wasn't you." And even though she never got to say that, I thought, "Oh, you know that." Like, you know that. Or you couldn't have written it if you didn't know it. But just writing it, the act of writing it and giving it voice and reading it out loud, even if there was no one else in the room. So writing a letter to anyone in your life you're having a challenge with, writing a letter back from them with what it is you needed to hear from them, even if you never do anything with that, you never edit it and give it to the person or anything like that, you're just framing in your head what's really going on here inside of me. Because I'm in here. Like, this is what's amazing to me about marriage, is I feel like after 53 years of walking around on this planet and 20 in therapy, I get myself, like, 75%. Okay? And I'm in here. Like, I'm in here, and I get about seven... What hope do I have of understanding 100% of the person sitting across the table from me or laying in the bed next to me? I'm in here, and I get 75% of it, and I'm gonna get mad at myself 'cause I don't understand this person 100% and get them what they need 100%. I don't get me what I need 100% of the time. I don't get me what I need 50% of the time. I screw it up constantly, and I go, "Why did you do that to yourself?" Give ourselves and each other some grace, and just realize that, listen, this is just about understanding ourselves, what we need, what we want, this person, help- helping them understand what they need, what they want, and then figuring out how to do that dance.

Mel Robbins 1:10:43 If you had to save

Mel Robbins 1:10:44 a marriage with one thing, what would it be?

James Sexton 1:10:47 I think the most important way to save a marriage is to pay attention. I think we just stop paying attention. Like whoever discovered water, it wasn't a fish. When you're in it, you just stop seeing it, and I think there's so much going on that you just don't see. And I think if you paid attention, you, you might see. Like, you might step out of the water and see. And I think because marriage is very often about this deep kind of proximity-

Mel Robbins 1:11:22 Mm

James Sexton 1:11:22 ... it becomes the water. Like, it just becomes this thing that's around you all the time, and, and you stop seeing it. And I, I think if you paid attention to what's going on inside of you and to what's going on with this person, I think most things, the solution comes from that first step.

Mel Robbins 1:11:45 That's, I think, the most beautiful answer I've ever heard about-

James Sexton 1:11:49 Thanks

Mel Robbins 1:11:50 ... a marriage. And of course, I love David Foster Wallace.

James Sexton 1:11:53 Yeah. So good. So good. I actually reread that essay, like-

Mel Robbins 1:11:57 I do too

James Sexton 1:11:58 ... quite often because I, I actually think it's fascinating how often I have to be reminded of that.

Mel Robbins 1:12:04 You know, if you don't know the essay we're talking about, which-

James Sexton 1:12:07 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:12:07 ... became this very, very viral, um, graduation speech that David Foster Wallace, the writer, gave before he died.

James Sexton 1:12:15 At Kenyon University, yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:12:16 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:12:16 Yeah, it's out there. I think it's called This Is Water.

Mel Robbins 1:12:18 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:12:18 They published it as something called This Is Water, but you can actually watch a video of it and-

Mel Robbins 1:12:22 And there's this poignant moment the essay hangs on where two fish are swimming, and they pass another fish. And one of them says to the other, "Hey, how's the water?" And he says, "What's water?"

James Sexton 1:12:34 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:12:35 And then it unravels into this unbelievably profound essay about how much of life you're missing because you're just not present.

James Sexton 1:12:47 And the thing that was beautiful about that essay is I think he, he realized something that, that maybe not every person who's writing the story in their head realizes, which is you could just as easily cast the characters as villains or heroes. And you know, he talks about in the essay how, like, the person in line in front of you, you know, who's, like, in a bad mood, you can just say, "Oh, they're an awful person," or, like, maybe they have a sick relative at home, and this is, like, the only minute that they managed to get out, and they're so stressed and... And he's like, and if you just reframe... Like, it's just as easy to tell yourself that story as it is to tell yourself the story where they're the villain, and you're the hero. If, if you judge me as a parent by my greatest moment of parenting, you're giving me too much credit, and if you judge me as a parent by my weakest, worst moment as a parent, you're not giving me enough credit. I'm really kind of the aggregate of all of those things. Well, that's a lesson to bring to your marriage because, in your marriage, any time someone tells me the story of their life and they're the hero of the story, I'm instantly skeptical.

Mel Robbins 1:13:52 Well, that's a really good insight because we all have that friend, particularly the one going through a divorce-

James Sexton 1:13:57 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:13:57 ... where the narrative is evil, evil, evil, evil-

James Sexton 1:14:00 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:00 ... evil, evil, evil, because you're hurt.

James Sexton 1:14:02 Of course

Mel Robbins 1:14:03 And there's no self-awareness to say, "Well, you know, I haven't been affectionate in three years, so I can kinda see how the door opened up for-"

James Sexton 1:14:12 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:12 ... them to walk away or-

James Sexton 1:14:13 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:13 ... find somebody else or-"

James Sexton 1:14:15 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:15 I really have some reflecting. There's-- And what I, just going back to that essay and the moment in the essay of not seeing the water, and also you can choose to write a story about the rude person.

James Sexton 1:14:28 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:14:28 It goes back to the original thing that you said. You always have the opportunity to remind yourself-

James Sexton 1:14:33 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:34 ... that a really good relationship is one, is where you can be in the narrative, "This is my favorite person."

James Sexton 1:14:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:14:42 Even if they're pissing me off right now.

James Sexton 1:14:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:14:44 Even if I have a lot of evidence for the things-

James Sexton 1:14:47 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:14:47 ... that have gone wrong.

James Sexton 1:14:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:14:48 Even if I'm scared we're headed for divorce, I can still stand in a narrative that this is my favorite person. I at least remember a time when they were.

James Sexton 1:14:58 Yeah. And, and what are, what are the core components of that beauty that you saw in them?

Mel Robbins 1:15:04 Yes.

James Sexton 1:15:05 That are still there? If they've changed, what changed them? Because it's rarely, like, a nefarious thing, right? Like, you know, if I let myself get out of shape, it's not that I, I was like, "Oh, I really wanna be in bad shape." You know, like, when my mom was actively on hospice, I gained 30 pounds because I took such, like, pleasure. Like, everything hurt, it felt like.

Mel Robbins 1:15:31 Mm.

James Sexton 1:15:31 So I would eat dinner every night, and I would just eat anything. I would eat, like, delicious f- 'cause it just gave me, like, a moment of sensory pleasure. And I remember, like, people who I knew but only knew casually through work being like, "Oh, Jim, you've been, uh, you've put on a couple pound-" I just remember, like, it hurt so badly because I wanted to say to them, like, "Do you understand? This is the only thing I have right now."

Mel Robbins 1:15:56 Mm.

James Sexton 1:15:56 Like, is, that food tastes good. Like, everything else hurts right now. And I, I feel like if we looked at our partners and went, "Okay, this..." Even if they're not currently my favorite person, they were.

Mel Robbins 1:16:09 I think it's a really important tool that I wanna make sure as you're listening and watching you land the plane on that one-

James Sexton 1:16:16 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:16:16 ... and understand that it's a tool which is, if you're in a patch in your relationship where things are really challenging.

James Sexton 1:16:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 1:16:23 Okay? Um, or you hear that phrase, "You're my favorite person," because I ran to the bathroom and bumped into somebody that was coming out of the bathroom, and they're like, "Oh my God, James Sexton's unbelievable. You gotta..." And he can boil relationships down to one sentence: "You're my favorite person."

James Sexton 1:16:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:16:42 And the person coming out of the bathroom looked at me and said, "Oh my God. That's hard."

James Sexton 1:16:46 I think it's hard because I think it's scary to think that no one could love us that way.

Mel Robbins 1:16:55 Mm.

James Sexton 1:16:55 And it's also scary to think that anyone could.

Mel Robbins 1:16:58 Mm.

James Sexton 1:17:00 I th- I think those are equally terrifying. [laughs] Like, as a human being, I, I find both of those things terrifying. I find the prospect that I could ever feel that way about another person, and I would know I'm going to someday lose them-

Mel Robbins 1:17:15 Mm

James Sexton 1:17:16 ... is terrifying. And to consider the possibility that someone could actually know me, all of the stuff in me, and go, "No, you're my favorite person," like, to me, like, that's... I mean, there's nothing more incredible than the possibility of that. When I look back at my life, every single thing that meant anything was some connection to another person, someone I loved, someone who loved me, a moment where I felt loved truly and deeply for who I am, where I felt joy for being in the presence of someone who loved me or who I loved, when I felt joy of just being in the presence of love.

Mel Robbins 1:17:58 Mm.

James Sexton 1:17:58 Like, as a hospice volunteer, I will tell you, nobody I've ever done hospice visits with wants to talk about the fact that they're dying. It's not that interesting. It's something that they're confronting all the time. They're aware of it. They don't wanna talk about it. They don't need to talk about it. It's their present reality. They wanna talk about their life. They wanna talk about the people they love. They're not that interested in the things they owned. Like, they're, they're interested in the connections they made, the impact they made, and when they were loved. Like, f- feeling loved, I think, is the most powerful thing in the world, and there are a lot of people who don't feel love ever in their life. And sometimes that's their circumstance, and sometimes it's that they, they haven't had the real courage it takes to let someone see the truth of you.

Mel Robbins 1:18:48 From your bestselling book, How to Stay in Love, this is page 248. "When is the last time you and your spouse discussed what it specifically means to be happy and how you each define that term? When was the last time you discussed in specific terms what a satisfying sex life is for each of you? These should be conversations you look forward to. They're about being happy and about fucking, for fuck's sake. You're married. That means you're in the same car, driving on the same road. Logic says you should be headed toward the same destination. Are you? Who selected that destination? Is it where you both want to get? Is it one of you crawling out the back window while the other one plows ahead blindly?"

James Sexton 1:19:35 Yeah. Yeah, I think we, we don't ask enough questions about what's going on in our relationships. I mean, in terms of where are we going. Like, what's the story we're writing together? You know, you'd never-- I live in New York City. You'd never get in a cab and just go drive, you know? You, you say where it is you wanna go, and then you can have a conversation about what's the best way to get there. But, you know, to some degree, we, we learn about relationships by watching our parents or the environment we grew up in and by watching popular media. And now by watching curated images on social media. So those are the three ways to do it. I don't think any of those is a particularly honest or great teacher necessarily.

Mel Robbins 1:20:18 Mm.

James Sexton 1:20:19 And, you know, marriage is very much rooted in tradition, and tradition I think is, is really two things in varying measure. It's the wisdom of the people who came before us and what they have to teach us, and it's peer pressure exerted by dead people. When you're doing something because it's tradition, like, "Why did you get married?" "Well, my mom and dad got married, and my grandparents got married, and my great-grandmother got married." And by the way, the reason your great-grandmother got married is 'cause her mother got married, right? So your great-great-great-grandmother got married. Okay, your great-great-great-grandmother used a buggy whip. Do you have a buggy whip? Like, are all the technologies that made s- Did she have the entire sum total of human wisdom available in a device held in her hand that comes from the sky? Because that's incredible. Like, she lived in a different universe than the one you navigate on a daily basis. Why would you think the technology of marriage that worked for her will work for you the same way with the same tools, and all you need to do is watch how this was done in this apprenticeship model of figuring out what marriage looks like? Your relationship, your rules, the two of you. It's the only two people that matter is the two of you. Are you happy, the two of you? Do you have a rhythm that works for you? You know, I, I, I posted something a couple of weeks ago where I was talking about how I personally don't understand why people sleep in the same bed. Just for me, I just don't get it. Like, two adults and two dogs, it's a lot in a bed. Like, I'm not saying don-

Mel Robbins 1:21:53 Well, you also have a broken nose-

James Sexton 1:21:55 I'm not saying ri-

Mel Robbins 1:21:55 ... so you probably are a big snorer.

James Sexton 1:21:56 I'm not saying, I'm a big-time snorer.

Mel Robbins 1:21:58 I'm not sure I wanna be in that-

James Sexton 1:21:58 You do not wanna be in that bed.

Mel Robbins 1:21:59 [laughs]

James Sexton 1:21:59 And the truth is, like, if you think about it, like, hey, listen, like, spend time in bed, have fun in bed, all those things, but then go sleep in your own bed like a civilized person. Now again, this is my personal feeling. People had a lot of feelings about this. It had hundreds of thousands of comments.

Mel Robbins 1:22:14 Why do you think people had a lot of feelings about that?

James Sexton 1:22:17 Because I, I think people hear anyone saying, "Here's what's important in my relationship," as you're doing it wrong in your relationship. And all I'm actually trying to get anyone to do is just let's all come out of the closet a little bit. Like, let's all come out and say, "You know, my spouse and I do this. It works for us." Because it, once you start doing that, everybody at the table starts to go, "Oh yeah, we do that, too." To me, that's the best stuff in life, is that, that intimacies, those little tiny shared private joys.

Mel Robbins 1:22:56 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:22:56 Like, that's the coolest, most wonderful thing. We don't share that with each other. And by the way, it's not for public consumption necessarily. But just sharing that, like, give it a shot and see. Like, that might be the cure for the disconnection between the two of you is to be silly sometimes together.

Mel Robbins 1:23:12 Mm.

James Sexton 1:23:12 Or maybe, you know, it really is like, "Well, we have to sleep in the same bed." W- who told you that you have to sleep in the same bed? Maybe you are the kind of people that would be more comfortable sleeping in separate beds. Or maybe one of you or both of you think it's really important to be in the cave together, curled up, holding each other. Like, all that matters is the two of you coming up with rules that make sense for you. Who cares how many times a week I have sex? How many times a week do the two of you feel satisfied with having sex? If it's good enough for the two of you, no one else's business. It's no one else's business.

Mel Robbins 1:23:43 Well, I think the reason why people get so offended by that opinion-

James Sexton 1:23:49 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:23:50 ... is that if you're honest with yourself, you're clinging to very surface level pieces-

James Sexton 1:23:57 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:23:57 ... of evidence-

James Sexton 1:23:58 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:23:58 ... of connection.

James Sexton 1:23:59 Yeah, we're doing great. We're in s- sleeping in the same bed.

Mel Robbins 1:24:01 That the ring on the finger or the fact that we're in the same bed, that that means you're connected, and when somebody erupts, it's because you're showing-

James Sexton 1:24:13 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:24:13 ... us all-

James Sexton 1:24:13 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:24:13 ... that connection is actually something else.

James Sexton 1:24:15 And again, like, I love that because the truth is we live in a symbolic world.

Mel Robbins 1:24:21 Mm-hmm.

James Sexton 1:24:21 I, I... As humans, we're constantly making meaning. We live in a symbolic world. Like, why do I wear a tie? Why do I wear a suit? Like, why couldn't I just go to court in jeans and a T-shirt? Like, I, I wear this suit for a re- When you wear a s- Why do you wear a suit to a job interview or a funeral or a wedding? 'Cause you're saying y- this suit is a statement. The statement is, "I take this seriously. This thing I'm doing, I take it very seriously."

Mel Robbins 1:24:44 And what you're, what you taught us today, or what you taught me, is that the symbols of I'm sleeping in a bed or I have a ring on my finger or we've been together for 32 years-

James Sexton 1:24:56 Right, right

Mel Robbins 1:24:57 ... that's actually not the symbol of connection.

James Sexton 1:24:59 No.

Mel Robbins 1:24:59 It's do you show up-

James Sexton 1:25:01 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:25:01 ... and treat somebody as if they're your favorite person?

James Sexton 1:25:03 Favorite person. Yeah. Yeah, because here's what I'll tell you, and it's a hot take, and it's an unfalsifiable premise, so it's safe. I genuinely believe that the connection that you have with Chris, and that many of the very happily married people that I know, if you took off the ring, if you took away the government's involvement, they would still be two people who were each other's favorite person and loved each other more than anything and wanted to stay together forever, not because they were afraid of giving away half their things or because of... but because their life is better because this person is next to them. And to me, that's worth fighting for. That's worth building. That's the thing worth protecting if you f- lucky enough to have found it. Like I say sometimes, marriage is like the lottery. You're probably not going to win, but if you win, what you win is so fantastic. Why wouldn't you buy a ticket? Why wouldn't you try? Why wouldn't you? And unlike the lottery, there are very specific, practical things you can do that will increase the chances of you succeeding at this thing, and they're not difficult. They don't mean- require you to buy anything. They don't require grand gestures, which is, by the way, why you're not hearing about it from advertisers, 'cause there's nothing to buy. There's no course to take. There's nothing. Like, it's all stuff you already naturally know how to do and what to do, 'cause it's all the same things that if someone did it for you, it would make you feel seen and loved and heard and important.

Mel Robbins 1:26:36 James Sexton, what are your parting words?

James Sexton 1:26:40 Oh my gosh. You're gonna get me speechless. I, I think my parting words are, you know, love each other fearlessly. It's the bravest thing in the world. Like, it's the bravest and best thing in the world. And I genuinely believe that we're worthy of love. I genuinely believe almost everything we do every day is to find love, be worthy of love, and keep love. And I think it boils down to two words and four words. Pay attention, and you're my favorite person.

Mel Robbins 1:27:25 I cannot tell you how completely floored I am-

James Sexton 1:27:31 Thanks

Mel Robbins 1:27:32 ... by you. I, I-

James Sexton 1:27:34 Thanks

Mel Robbins 1:27:34 ... feel so grateful-

James Sexton 1:27:36 Thanks

Mel Robbins 1:27:37 ... that you are doing the work that you're doing. I g- I, I'm so moved by everything that you shared. And even just, "Pay attention," and, "You're my favorite person"-

James Sexton 1:27:47 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:27:47 ... those are two things that are gonna immediately improve and deepen my relationship with Chris, because it's a skill-

James Sexton 1:27:56 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:27:56 ... that we have to contin- it's the rep-

James Sexton 1:27:59 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:27:59 ... that you do in a relationship.

James Sexton 1:28:00 But I think, you know, what, what you're standing in, like, awe of and moved by is what's inside you. Like, it's the feelings inside of you for Chris and for the people in your life that you love, and the love that, of theirs that you feel towards you, and how that makes you view yourself because you know it's authentic and real, that love. And, and if you can love yourself the way that those people love you, like, that's the greatest superpower ever. And so, like, I, I think this is just what love's supposed to be, is that-

Mel Robbins 1:28:35 Yes

James Sexton 1:28:35 ... we bring this out in each other. We bring out in each other-

Mel Robbins 1:28:39 Yes

James Sexton 1:28:39 ... what's in there.

Mel Robbins 1:28:41 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:28:41 That's all.

Mel Robbins 1:28:42 Yeah. Well, thank you for, um, absolutely everything.

James Sexton 1:28:47 Thanks for having me. It's great to see you. It's great to... It's, it's great to stand in the presence of it when people... Like, there's so much that I have to learn from people like you and Chris who have maintained that connection, and I feel like for me there's tremendous value when I get to talk about these things because I'm learning it. It's moving me in the same way. You know? Like, this is all... I could, I could say this every day, and I would still lose the plot sometimes, so.

Mel Robbins 1:29:14 Well, I'll tell you one thing that really struck me is when you said, "Ask yourself if you're in one of those moments in your relationship, what's changed?" And if I look back on the period of time where Chris and I really struggled-

James Sexton 1:29:25 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:29:26 ... and you can point at the stress of life and the financial pressure we were under and just everything that was going on, but what we've now really realized is that a lot of what changed was that his father died-

James Sexton 1:29:41 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:29:42 ... in the middle of it.

James Sexton 1:29:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:29:43 And it's only recently, and this would've been 19 years ago, I mean-

James Sexton 1:29:47 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:29:47 ... that he really understand how that just changed him, and-

James Sexton 1:29:52 Yeah

Mel Robbins 1:29:52 ... I didn't see it.

James Sexton 1:29:53 Yeah, and grief, you know, sneaks up on you.

Mel Robbins 1:29:55 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:29:56 And especially too when, when, like Chris, you, you navigate the terrain of that-

Mel Robbins 1:30:00 Yes

James Sexton 1:30:00 ... like it's a familiar terrain. You sort of feel like, "Oh, I'm, I'm exempt from it." Like a physician who's like when they get ill.

Mel Robbins 1:30:07 Yeah.

James Sexton 1:30:08 You know? But it's like, no, no, no, like, this is different. Like, experiencing it outside of the connection of self and family, and it puts yourself in the, where you stand in the history of things. And you know, it's all sort of impermanence at the end of the day. But I have to tell you, I, I think, again, if you pay attention, it, all of that is there. Like all... I, I've learned firsthand as a, as a divorce trial lawyer for almost three decades now how much ugliness and anger is in all of us, and I've also learned how much beauty is in all of us. And I, I try in my relationship with the world to bring what I think people bring in a good marriage-

Mel Robbins 1:30:49 Mm

James Sexton 1:30:49 ... which is they cling to the possibility of the good in us, and they try to overlook the possibility of the fool in us.

Mel Robbins 1:30:57 Mm.

James Sexton 1:30:57 And there's nothing to me more beautiful than that.

Mel Robbins 1:31:00 Well, James Sexton, thank you for showing us what to pay attention to-

James Sexton 1:31:04 Thank you

Mel Robbins 1:31:05 ... so we can experience all the possibilities that love and relationships have for us. And I also wanna thank you. Thank you for making the time to listen to or watch this conversation. I know you feel so moved. I hope you will share this generously. I hope you've already shared it with your favorite person. And in case no one else tells you today, as your friend, I wanna tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. And I know based on everything that I was reminded of, everything that James taught us today, that I have tools to create a better life, because this is gonna lead to more love, better relationships, and we all deserve that. All righty. I'll see you in the very next episode. I'm gonna welcome you in the moment you hit play. Thank you for watching all the way to the end. I loved this. I know you did too. And thank you for sharing this with people that you love. We all need to hear this advice. And I know you wanna know what's the next video you should watch, 'cause you love this one so much. I think you're gonna love this, and I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. [outro music]