The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor

1. 0:00 – 8:01

   Intro

   1. MRMel Robbins0:00

      What makes you irreplaceable?

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks0:02

      You don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone.

   3. MRMel Robbins0:07

      Okay, stop. I freaking love that, and we're all stealing that. What are the mistakes that people make-

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks0:13

      Yeah.

   5. MRMel Robbins0:13

      ... when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion?

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks0:17

      They go in sort of righteous and resolute, thinking, "This is what an influential person looks like. This is what they sound like. They're decisive. They're convincing. They're compelling and strong."

   7. MRMel Robbins0:28

      Aren't they?

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks0:29

      Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel, and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them. Just reminding them relentlessly, "Hey, I'm with you. I got your back." Yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also, your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things.

   9. MRMel Robbins0:50

      That right there is worth a million dollars, and let me tell you why. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, I just wanna take a moment and welcome you to The Mel Robbins Podcast family. And because you hit play on this episode and you found the time to listen to this, here's what I know about you. You're not only the kinda person that values your time, but you have a lot of ambition, and you're looking for ways to advance your career, and you're in the right place. Your ambition might mean that you wanna make more money or land your dream job, or just get the recognition and respect that you deserve at work. Well, this conversation today is a must listen for you and for everyone that you care about, because there are specific things that you can do, based on the research, to get what you deserve at work and in life. Everything that you're about to learn today comes from 15 years of research from Harvard Business School professor Alison Wood Brooks. She also has a brand new book, Talk, which is all about the science of communication, and it summarizes one of the most popular courses at HBS that she created and teaches. Now, Professor Brooks took time to come over from her Harvard Business School classroom over across the river in Cambridge to be here in our Boston studios for one reason: she's doing it for you. Now, to put this in context, if you were to even get into Harvard Business School, I know I probably couldn't, it would cost you over $100,000 a year to attend. And today, you're getting the biggest takeaways distilled down for free. So if you have somebody in your life who needs to ask for a promotion, or maybe there's someone that you know that is entering what is a very tough job market right now, this conversation today and everything that Professor Brooks is about to share is gonna give you a leg up and the confidence boost you need. And we're also gonna get into some groundbreaking research that changed my life. This is research that will help you nail any interview, it'll help you navigate a difficult conversation, and destroy that presentation that's coming up, no matter how nervous you may be. Class is in session-

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks3:12

       (laughs)

   11. MRMel Robbins3:12

       ... and it's gonna be a master class at that. Professor Alison Wood Brooks, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here today.

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks3:19

       Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

   13. MRMel Robbins3:21

       Well, congratulations on your bestselling new book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves, and I cannot wait to have you teach us exactly what to do so that we can get ahead in our careers, we can land our dream jobs, we can get paid what we deserve, and we can manage the stress and anxiety that comes from all things about making money and truly negotiating better. And so I just wanna start by having you tell the person who's listening about your background, the classes that you teach at Harvard Business School, and why they recruited you. They recruited you to come to Harvard Business School to teach negotiation.

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks4:03

       Yeah. I'm a behavioral scientist. I went- I got my PhD at Wharton, at the business school in Philadelphia, where I studied emotions and how people feel, how they talk about their feelings, and specifically in the context of negotiations. How do we feel when we're negotiating? How we feel before we negotiate. And I was hired at the Harvard Business School to teach this course on negotiation. And it's an incredible course. It's so valuable. We all need to learn how to negotiate more effectively. I taught that for about four years, and then I started to get a little itchy. I was like, "May- I think the business school might need something else in addition to this negotiation course."

   15. MRMel Robbins4:44

       Mm-hmm.

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks4:45

       And I, so I, I created a course called Talk that focuses very broadly on how to become a better conversationalist in all areas of your life.

   17. MRMel Robbins4:53

       And let me just say, it's not just any course.

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks4:55

       (laughs)

   19. MRMel Robbins4:55

       This course has a wait list.

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks4:57

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MRMel Robbins4:57

       I mean, students are trying to negotiate their way into this course. And before we jump into some of the research and specific things that you're gonna tell us to do in order to get promoted, in order to negotiate a higher salary, in order to find and land our dream jobs, and to also combat the nerves-

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks5:19

       Yeah.

   23. MRMel Robbins5:19

       ... that come from negotiating and having difficult conversations at work or in our life, can you just talk a little bit about some of the biggest takeaways that the person listening might find very surprising from the Harvard negotiation course?

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks5:34

       Yeah. I think when we think of people who- When you imagine a good negotiator, I think this really tough, rigid, persuasive person comes to mind.

   25. MRMel Robbins5:45

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks5:46

       When we actually study people negotiating in practice in the real world, often the best negotiators are people who are just great communicators, people who have and are good at developing meaningful relationships, who figure out how to, uh, figure out what other people need, and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need. Um, it's not about s- getting in there and saying, like, uh, "Give me more money," or, "Give me more power." It's literally giving people, act- actually adding value and, and bringing what people need to them.

   27. MRMel Robbins6:17

       I wanna make sure I heard you correctly.

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks6:19

       (laughs)

   29. MRMel Robbins6:20

       Because if I think about negotiating, whether it's for a higher salary or it's just trying to get the better deal at a car dealership-

   30. ABAlison Wood Brooks6:30

       Yeah. (laughs)
2. 8:01 – 14:24

   Strategic Ways to Stand Out at Work

   1. MRMel Robbins8:01

      What is the single biggest factor that determines whether or not somebody actually gets promoted or paid more at work?

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks8:09

      It's so funny. When we think about people who get promoted, we think of these powerful people who have l- are sort of, like, m- masters of the universe or maybe tycoons or whatever. In practice, the people who thrive at work, who do well, who perform well, are good at conversation. They're doing a good job talking to their coworkers. They're doing a good job talking to their investors, to their clients, to their customers, to their boss. They are people that everyone likes working with because they're enjoyable to be around and they're bringing value. They're working hard and bringing value to the people around them.

   3. MRMel Robbins8:43

      You know, that makes sense, because I remember seeing somewhere this research about the single biggest factor that determines whether or not a woman, in particular, gets promoted, or somebody that is a minority gets promoted, and it's whether or not their contributions are known.

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks9:02

      Mm.

   5. MRMel Robbins9:03

      And if you really stop and think, if you're somebody who is quiet and you're hoping people know what you're doing and you're not a good communicator because it's not a skill that you've practiced or because your nerves get the best of you, then you're leaving it to hope and chance-

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks9:23

      Yeah.

   7. MRMel Robbins9:24

      ... that you're going to get recognized.

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks9:26

      Yeah.

   9. MRMel Robbins9:26

      Because your contributions being known is largely determined by whether or not you can communicate effectively.

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks9:34

       Yeah. Sometimes your contributions are observable without talking. Sometimes other people will notice and will say something and sort of promote y- fr- about you, talk good about you, something that they've ob- observed. But very often, if you think about a high performer at work and you track back, "Well, how did they become known as a high performer?"

   11. MRMel Robbins9:55

       Uh-huh.

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks9:56

       You track the chain of information back, and very often, it comes back to a point where it's like, "Well, actually, he told me himself that he just won this award," or that he just figured out th- this new problem or he figured out this new thing. So very often, it comes back around to this idea of, like, you h- if something great is happening and no one's noticing, it's up to you to share it with someone.

   13. MRMel Robbins10:16

       You know, I just had this happen because it... we f- found out that we (laughs) are the number one ranked podcast in the world on-

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks10:24

       Let's go, Mel.

   15. MRMel Robbins10:24

       ... Apple Podcasts.

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks10:25

       Let's go.

   17. MRMel Robbins10:25

       I mean, it's like I never in a million years imagined a world where I would see The Mel Robbins Podcast ahead of Joe Rogan.

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks10:33

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins10:33

       And it's funny because even somebody that listens to this show twice a week every week wouldn't know that-

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks10:42

       Yeah.

   21. MRMel Robbins10:42

       ... because you're not paying attention to the charts.

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks10:44

       That's right.

   23. MRMel Robbins10:45

       It's not until I actually say that this is something that has happened that you're aware of this thing that has happened.

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks10:53

       And what's so amazing is if you-

   25. MRMel Robbins10:54

       And I almost don't wanna say it because I feel like, "Okay, I'm bragging," and then you're not gonna like me, and then you're gonna think I'm full of... Well, let them.

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks11:02

       (laughs)

   27. MRMel Robbins11:02

       Not to follow my own advice. But what were you gonna say, professor?

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks11:05

       I was gonna say now that you've said it, anyone who hears this episode can then go and they can share that information. I can leave our conversation here, and I'm gonna say, "Guess whose podcast I got to go on? And it's so amazing because guess whose the number one podcast right now? It's Mel's podcast." I wouldn't have known that except if you told me. Even, even someone who's coming to visit. So there are so many examples of this where it wouldn't be known unless you shared it.

   29. MRMel Robbins11:32

       I think a great rule of thumb is to assume that nobody at work actually knows what you're working on-

   30. ABAlison Wood Brooks11:37

       That's right.
3. 14:24 – 27:31

   How to Confidently Ask for a Raise

   1. MRMel Robbins14:24

      You have now said twice, in talking about the science and research around being effective as a leader and a communicator, that it's about helping the other person-

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks14:35

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins14:36

      ... or understanding what the other person wants, and that being a key component of the skill of communication. So if I take that nugget, and I now say, "Okay, how the heck does that apply-"

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks14:51

      (laughs)

   5. MRMel Robbins14:51

      "... to me wanting to ask for a raise? Like, isn't there a script that I need to follow, where I march in, and I'm confident, and I ask for what I want and then negotiate in a really powerful way, and that means I'm gonna get it?"

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks15:03

      Yeah. We'd like to... I- I think it's easy to think about, um, that someone walks in, and they're confident, and they say, "I deserve a raise because of X, Y, and Z," and you lay out the data, and you say, "Because I'm great and you owe this to me-"

   7. MRMel Robbins15:16

      Right.

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks15:16

      ... before you actually figure out what's in their mind. Um, "What do you value in an employee? Am I doing a good job? What- how can I add more value? What could make this organization better? How could I be more pleasant to be around? How could I be more helpful to th- our- my colleagues?" And this is not the mindset that people usually go in with. They go in with this, "I'm strong, and I'm gonna convince you that I'm right and deserving." There are questions like, "How many other people do you have available to you that you- could y- you could replace me with?" That's an important question. If that- if your boss has a queue of 200 other resumes sitting on their desk, you're probably not in a great- a very powerful position to walk in and say, "Hey, give me a raise." But if you are bringing a lot of value, and you're hard to replace, then maybe you are in a better position to talk about that.

   9. MRMel Robbins16:05

      So I just wanna make sure I got this straight. (laughs) 'Cause I feel a little bad because I was out to dinner last night, believe it or not. I mean, I love how the universe works. And the person that was waiting on our table came up, and it turns out that they're a huge fan of this podcast, and it was really cool. And I said, "Oh, well, what topic would you want me to cover?" And I kid you not, she said, "I'm the manager at this restaurant, and next week, I'm going in, and I'm asking for a raise." And I think I gave her the wrong advice.

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks16:40

       What'd you tell her?

   11. MRMel Robbins16:41

       Well, the first thing I said to her is I said, "The one thing I don't want you to do is do not look at Glassdoor and do not find every other salary range in your area and then assume that your boss should pay you that, because that doesn't feel like you telling me that you're irreplaceable. That feels like an ultimatum." And when somebody does that to me, it makes me go, "Okay, well, if you'd like to get paid that at a different restaurant, go get that job."

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks17:08

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins17:09

       And I then said to her, "What I would do is I would look back through your calendar and your photographs and jog your memory and try to come up with a list of all of the problems you solve, all of the things that you do that your boss-

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks17:22

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins17:22

       ... does not realize that you do. Come up with the number of different jobs that you do, and then also come up with the reasoning behind why you wanna grow in this role-

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks17:35

       Yeah.

   17. MRMel Robbins17:35

       ... and why that's important to you." But I didn't say, "I want you to first stop and put yourself in your boss's shoes."

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks17:46

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins17:46

       "What does your boss need in an incredible manager? What makes you irreplaceable?" And I think that's something that nobody is talking about.

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks17:56

       Yeah. And- or take the li- the- you've now instructed her to make this, like, log of things that she's done. She could bring the log to her boss and say, "Which of these things is most valuable to you? What do you think is- what am I doing here that you love so that I can do more of that? Which of these do you think I should do less of? W- how can I grow in this role? What should I be doing, uh, differently, better, great? Which of these are most valuable to you that make you want to hold onto me?"

   21. MRMel Robbins18:24

       So you would have that conversation before you actually have the one where you're truly asking for the promotion or the raise?

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks18:30

       Yeah. And this is true of any conversation where you're trying to be... The- the mindset of trying to be persuasive is a very dangerous mindset.

   23. MRMel Robbins18:39

       What do you mean?

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks18:39

       There are so many conversations where we go in and we, uh, often at work, and we want to persuade someone to agree with us. "I wanna persuade my boss that I am deserving of a raise."

   25. MRMel Robbins18:50

       Mm-hmm.

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks18:51

       But the way to do that, ultimately, the way to be persuasive is to go in with a learning mindset. When you go in and you try and learn as much as you can about what's valuable to them, what's valuable to the organization, what do they love about what you're doing, what do they hate about what you're doing, learn, learn, learn, ultimately, that conversation's gonna feel like the two of you are solving a problem together, rather than arguing and pushing and pulling and you trying to persuade them to agree with you. And ultimately, you will ironically end up being more persuasive.

   27. MRMel Robbins19:23

       Who knew that the Harvard Business School professor who teaches the course in the science of communication and negotiation would give us unbelievably amazing advice?

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks19:34

       Aw.

   29. MRMel Robbins19:35

       No, I'm not kidding because-

   30. ABAlison Wood Brooks19:36

       (laughs)
4. 27:31 – 35:47

   Negotiating Better Shifts

   1. MRMel Robbins27:31

      worker, right? One of my, uh, daughters works at a restaurant.

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks27:34

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MRMel Robbins27:35

      And let's just say she wants better shifts.

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks27:37

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins27:38

      How do you use this strategy to try to negotiate without being very direct around getting better shifts? And I'm not saying for the record that my daughter wants better shifts. I'm just using it-

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks27:51

      (laughs)

   7. MRMel Robbins27:51

      ... as an example 'cause somebody might listen to this-

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks27:54

      She put you up to this. (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins27:54

      ... at the restaurant. Yes, exactly. But as a former waitress and bartender, I know when the schedule comes out and you're like, "Ugh, another crappy shift. How do I get the good shift?"

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:03

       Totally. I spent many years of my life waitressing too. I know this feeling. Um, so I think there's a couple answers. The, the first question is, who are you talking to? Who are you targeting?

   11. MRMel Robbins28:13

       Oh.

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:13

       Because you could talk to your fellow servers first and say, "Are you also unhappy with your shifts? Do you, are there any opportunities for us to trade?" That would be win-win, right?

   13. MRMel Robbins28:23

       Mm-hmm.

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:23

       So that's, we call that trading on differences. People have different preferences. There might be win-wins in there to trade with the fellow servers.

   15. MRMel Robbins28:29

       Yeah.

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:30

       Um, you could then, if, if not, if that's not an option, uh, you can go and talk to your boss and say like, "When are you, when you're making this schedule, what are you thinking about? What, is there something about this shift that you think I'm uniquely positioned to do? Am I doing a good job here? What value am I bringing?" Um, or, "What, this, I would really love to be on this earlier shift, but I see that, you know, this other server's there. Do you think they're uniquely positioned to be there? What are they doing that's great?"

   17. MRMel Robbins28:54

       Or, "What could I do to put myself in a position-"

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:57

       To earn-

   19. MRMel Robbins28:57

       ... to be considered."

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:58

       ... that spot?

   21. MRMel Robbins28:58

       Yes.

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks28:59

       "What can I do to earn it?"

   23. MRMel Robbins29:00

       You know what I love about this, is that oftentimes, and I'll speak as an employer and as a parent.

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks29:07

       (laughs) Right? 'Cause-

   25. MRMel Robbins29:08

       'Cause you're sort of like an employer.

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks29:10

       ... kids are constantly negotiating. (laughs)

   27. MRMel Robbins29:11

       Um, oftentimes it feels a little bit like me against you.

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks29:15

       Yeah.

   29. MRMel Robbins29:16

       And what I love about this strategy, Professor Brooks, is that all of a sudden, you, in a very sneaky way, you made me with you.

   30. ABAlison Wood Brooks29:24

       Yeah.
5. 35:47 – 38:30

   The Little Things That Boost Happiness At Work

   1. ABAlison Wood Brooks35:47

      of our conversation has focused on asking for a raise, asking for more money. A very big takeaway from the negotiation course at, at HBS and this Talk book is, yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also, your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things about your work, the meaning of your work, how connected you feel to your coworkers, to your boss, your relationships. Do you have a work bestie? Do you have anybody there that you enjoy being around? Is there convenient parking? Is there good coffee? These things are not insignificant. So when you find yourself over-fixating on getting that $10,000 raise, I would urge people to also really think about, what are other things? If my company can't afford to give me $10,000 or $20,000 more a year-... are there other things that would make my life so much better-

   2. MRMel Robbins36:40

      Mm.

   3. ABAlison Wood Brooks36:40

      ... so much more pleasant, that are not about money at all?

   4. MRMel Robbins36:43

      Like, could I do a four-day work week? Could I-

   5. ABAlison Wood Brooks36:45

      Could I do a four-day w- work week? Can I get, can we get an espresso machine in the office? Can I, could, I have a friend who's really well-qualified for this, uh, open role that we have, could we think about hiring them? I would love, that would make me so happy to work with them. You know, think creatively. Think outside of just one issue.

   6. MRMel Robbins37:01

      That's so true because we do get fixated.

   7. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:04

      Yeah.

   8. MRMel Robbins37:04

      And not to say that the money isn't important and not to say you don't deserve-

   9. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:09

      For sure.

   10. MRMel Robbins37:10

       ... to be compensated for the contributions and the effort that you're making. And I do think the other thing, too, is, is that a lot of times, at least speaking for myself, is I would show up in a role and do the job that was asked of me.

   11. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:27

       Right.

   12. MRMel Robbins37:27

       And then I expect because I'm doing the job that's asked of me-

   13. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:31

       Yeah.

   14. MRMel Robbins37:31

       ... that, by the way, they could hire 100 other people-

   15. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:34

       (laughs)

   16. MRMel Robbins37:34

       ... to do the job that is asked of me.

   17. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:36

       Yeah.

   18. MRMel Robbins37:37

       But am I contributing more so that I am more valuable? And these are not the conversations that I ever had with myself because I was so busy going, "My friends in investment banking are making all this money and-"

   19. ABAlison Wood Brooks37:51

       (laughs)

   20. MRMel Robbins37:51

       ... you know, "I want this and I want that. Look at these influencers online and, you know, my company looks like they're doing well and my boss drives a nice car, so therefore I should," you know, ba, ba, ba, ba. And you get up in that mindset.

   21. ABAlison Wood Brooks38:01

       Dangerous.

   22. MRMel Robbins38:02

       Very.

   23. ABAlison Wood Brooks38:03

       Yeah. And, uh, there's a saying of, like, dress for the job that you want, but it's more than dress like the, you need to behave like the job that you want. So if they, they hired you to do a very simple job, if you start doing things that are actually above and beyond and more valuable, truly valuable to the organization, you're already doing the next level job.

   24. MRMel Robbins38:22

       Mm.

   25. ABAlison Wood Brooks38:23

       And you can go in and point that out to them and they might say, "Yeah, you're right." Like, "We need to reward you for, we need to pay you like you're doing that job."

   26. MRMel Robbins38:29

       So if the

6. 38:30 – 41:47

   Mel’s Top Tip For Getting Noticed At Work

   1. MRMel Robbins38:30

      research is undisputed that making your contributions known is one of the most effective things that you can be doing because just assume your boss is so busy, they don't even know all the things that you're doing, and if you're really good at your job, you're taking care of so much, that they're not aware of it 'cause it's not on fire anymore.

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks38:47

      Yup.

   3. MRMel Robbins38:47

      So, are there strategies, um, that you recommend that somebody think about in terms of how you make sure that the value that you're providing is known at work?

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks39:00

      I think two things. One, um, keeping notes. If you feel like you've done something valuable, make note of it. In academia, we have these very long, uh, CVs that, where we track, like, everything, every little move we make, every conference we attend, every tiny poster that you present, every paper that you publish. And it seems a little bit rel- ridiculous, but in retrospect when you look back, you say, "No, that was just keeping notes on all the little things that I did that felt like it added value to the field, added value to my organization, to my co-authors," all of it.

   5. MRMel Robbins39:30

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks39:30

      And so you can see why that's valuable. It's sort of undisputable evidence of all of the value that you added-

   7. MRMel Robbins39:36

      Yeah.

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks39:36

      ... somewhere. And-

   9. MRMel Robbins39:37

      And it's sort of like if, if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like, "Oh my God, I forgot that I went on that trip in July-"

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks39:42

       We-

   11. MRMel Robbins39:42

       "... and saw my friends." Yes.

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks39:43

       Everyone forgets. Th- how can you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember?

   13. MRMel Robbins39:49

       Yup.

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks39:49

       So, keeping notes in some way, some document where you're keeping track of what you've done is sort of part one. And part two is, talk to people about it. Tell, tell people when you've done something that you feel proud of or you feel like could be valuable, don't keep it a secret. Like, no one's gonna know about it and yes, maybe it brings you a sense of pride, but in terms of work, it's really valuable to share it.

   15. MRMel Robbins40:12

       I have two other things that I would love to share as ideas because I remember when my daughter started at this massive cybersecurity firm and they didn't do any, like, just one-on-one training-

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks40:25

       Mm.

   17. MRMel Robbins40:26

       ... on what makes for a good week, what do you do on a Monday, what do you do on a Friday? And so the first piece of advice was exactly what you're saying. Every single week on a Friday, take out your notes app or take out a running document and write down the things that you worked on.

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks40:40

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins40:41

       And the second thing, which I think is a great idea, is at the end of the week, send a short email to your boss-

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks40:47

       Mm-hmm.

   21. MRMel Robbins40:47

       ... and just say, "These are all the things that I got done this week. These are the things that I'm still working on next week. Is there anything that's a higher strategic priority-"

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks40:57

       Mm.

   23. MRMel Robbins40:57

       "... that you want me to focus on next week?" And what happens when you do that is now in one email you've communicated everything you've done-

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks41:05

       Yeah.

   25. MRMel Robbins41:05

       ... and you've recalibrated to see if there's something strategic that is on your boss' mind that you now need to prioritize.

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks41:14

       Yeah.

   27. MRMel Robbins41:15

       And the third thing, and I heard this from somebody else, I can't remember who said this, it was at, you know, a big kind of conference that I was speaking at and I thought it was brilliant. If you solve a problem, and it could be anything, you could be working at a big box retailer and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work and so you use something else. If you solve a problem, send an email wide-

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks41:39

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MRMel Robbins41:40

       ... about what happened and how you solved it because then you become a person that has wider visibility

7. 41:47 – 50:16

   Do’s and Dont’s of Effective Networking

   1. MRMel Robbins41:48

      of being somebody that's very proactive.

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks41:50

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins41:50

      And it matters. And even if they don't promote you at your work, guess what? You now have a record of all this stuff for when you're interviewing.

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks41:57

      Yeah. (laughs)

   5. MRMel Robbins41:57

      Which brings me to my big pivot.

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks41:59

      (laughs)

   7. MRMel Robbins41:59

      Let's talk about looking for a job, Professor Brooks.

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks42:02

      (laughs)

   9. MRMel Robbins42:03

      'Cause right now you're at Harvard Business School-

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks42:05

       Yeah.

   11. MRMel Robbins42:06

       ... and you got a lot of HBS students who are in the job market.

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks42:11

       Yeah.

   13. MRMel Robbins42:11

       And this is a conversation that's coming out where the news feels scary and AI is taking over jobs and people who are very qualified are having a hard time finding a job and people that are just entering the job market or getting back into it are feeling very overwhelmed.

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks42:29

       Yeah.

   15. MRMel Robbins42:30

       As a Harvard Business School professor, what do you see as some of the big mistakes that people make when they either start looking for a job or interviewing for one?

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks42:40

       Yeah. If you're having a hard time finding a job, you are not alone. This is a big problem right now, it's a big challenge. Even our students at HBS are struggling with this too, um, so you're not alone. Um, one- some of the biggest mistakes that I see people make on, on the job market is- is very similar to what we were talking about with promotions, is thinking, is focusing on, "How can I be the most interesting, qualified, exciting candidate?" Rather than thinking, "What does this organization need? What do they need and how can I fill that need?" Right? So it's much more, um, co-created than, "How can I be my best self?"

   17. MRMel Robbins43:18

       Mm.

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks43:19

       Because just being your best self may not be at all what they're looking for, and almost any job that you find yourself in is gonna require some flexibility for you to adapt to what they need from you. Um, and so trying to figure that out a priori or before you give, uh, before you do a job interview, before you interact with them is so very valuable.

   19. MRMel Robbins43:40

       Let me back up a minute, because I remember reading somewhere that 80% of open jobs aren't even listed.

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks43:47

       Yeah.

   21. MRMel Robbins43:47

       And that most jobs are filled based on networking.

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks43:51

       Of course, um, yeah, I would believe that.

   23. MRMel Robbins43:54

       So Professor Brooks, how do you teach Harvard Business School students to be better networkers?

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks44:01

       Oh. It's- it's such a key. The keys to networking are the same as the keys to all- being a- a valuable person in the world, right? It's all about, um, m- m- s- initiating and creating and sustaining meaningful relationships with people. It's not like a trick that you walk into some networking event and you're like, "Let me dazzle everybody."

   25. MRMel Robbins44:23

       (laughs)

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks44:23

       "Let me be the coolest guy in the room." No. It's really figuring out, what are they interested in? What are they excited about? What do they need right now? And am I the right fit for that? What can- what value can I bring to them? I remember a lot of my colleagues in grad school, when you go on the academic job market, they would go to these networking events and they'd be like, "Oh, I'm so nervous to talk to this person, so nervous." And I remember thinking, "That's so interesting. Like, all you really need to do is ask questions or think ahead. Oh, that person's working on this really interesting topic, let me do a little bit of reading about that topic and brainstorm. What is that area missing and what could I fill for them? Do I know something about an interesting research methodology? Do I know someone else who's working on cool stuff that I could introduce them to?"

   27. MRMel Robbins45:07

       Mm-hmm.

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks45:08

       Really thinking ahead about what value you could actually bring to that person. Then interacting with them is not nerve-wracking, 'cause you're actually prepared and bringing value to them.

   29. MRMel Robbins45:17

       So if you were thinking about this from the standpoint of somebody who's just graduating from college-

   30. ABAlison Wood Brooks45:24

       Mm.
8. 50:16 – 52:59

   How To Answer “Tell Me About Yourself” In An Interview

   1. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:16

      to have in their organization.

   2. MRMel Robbins50:18

      How do you answer the question, Professor Brooks, "So tell me about yourself-"

   3. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:21

      (laughs)

   4. MRMel Robbins50:22

      ... in an interview? Seriously.

   5. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:23

      Oh.

   6. MRMel Robbins50:24

      'Cause I'm always like, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

   7. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:26

      (laughs)

   8. MRMel Robbins50:27

      "You mean, like, today? Right now? I don't know. What do you wanna know? My pant size? Like, what I had for breakfast?"

   9. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:31

      I feel the same way.

   10. MRMel Robbins50:32

       So-

   11. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:32

       I feel the same way.

   12. MRMel Robbins50:33

       ... what's a way to answer that that's memorable and just kind of influential, if you know what I mean?

   13. ABAlison Wood Brooks50:39

       Okay. So first to interviewers, that's not a great question. Stop asking that question. More concrete questions are much more interesting. But if you are gonna stick with these sort of very abstract, open-ended, broad questions like, "Tell me about yourself," which we are all gonna confront, um, I like to make it more concrete in ways like, for example, if someone said, "Tell me about yourself," I'll say, "I'm gonna share two things with you about my professional experience and then two things about my personal life."

   14. MRMel Robbins51:06

       Okay, stop. I fricking love that, and we're all stealing that.

   15. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:09

       (laughs)

   16. MRMel Robbins51:10

       "I'm gonna share two things about my professional life and two things about my personal life."

   17. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:15

       Yeah. And they're gonna get a much more, uh, thorough view of who you are, and they don't need to be... Uh, you don't need to tell them, you know, that you've had STDs or whatever.

   18. MRMel Robbins51:24

       (laughs)

   19. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:24

       But, like, you can tell them-

   20. MRMel Robbins51:26

       Unless you're at an STD clinic-

   21. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:28

       (laughs)

   22. MRMel Robbins51:28

       ... which would make you-

   23. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:28

       And then you should.

   24. MRMel Robbins51:29

       ... very, like, effective-

   25. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:31

       Relatable.

   26. MRMel Robbins51:31

       ... at counseling people.

   27. ABAlison Wood Brooks51:32

       Very relatable. (laughs) Exactly. But if you y- Again, this is also topic prep. When you- You can anticipate that when you go into a job interview, they're gonna ask you about yourself, about your work experience, what about your life makes you a valuable person here, so topic prep that. What are things that you've experienced professionally that will make you good in this role? What are things that are unique about you personally? When I wrote this book about talk, something that I realized is I'm uniquely positioned to write this because I'm an identical twin.

   28. MRMel Robbins52:02

       Oh.

   29. ABAlison Wood Brooks52:02

       Of course. I'm, like, obsessed with humans. I- I- I'm obsessed with helping other people find this tight-knit shared reality that I have with my twin sister.

   30. MRMel Robbins52:11

       Hmm.
9. 52:59 – 1:07:33

   Simple Tools To Overcome Nerves Before a Job Interview

   1. MRMel Robbins52:59

      me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is one of the single biggest obstacles to networking, to doing well on interviews, to negotiating what happens if they do offer you the job, which we'll get to in a minute, is nerves. Like, you get so nervous about screwing it up that the nerves actually hijack your performance. And you have done groundbreaking research, research that I've been citing-

   2. ABAlison Wood Brooks53:29

      Mm.

   3. MRMel Robbins53:29

      ... for over seven years about the physiology of nerves and a research-back hack or reframe or whatever you wanna call it, a tool that you can use in these moments where it's appropriate to feel nervous 'cause you care-

   4. ABAlison Wood Brooks53:45

      Yeah.

   5. MRMel Robbins53:46

      ... but you can't allow it to hijack your performance. It saved my career. It's the thing that I used to overcome stage fright and become the most booked female speaker on the planet. And without this simple reframe, I never would have built the career that I have.

   6. ABAlison Wood Brooks54:04

      Oh. It means so much to me to hear that, really. I use it too, but to hear it from people... I mean, Mel, that's incredible. Thank you.

   7. MRMel Robbins54:12

      No, thank you. So could you explain to the person listening what was the research that you did about the connection between nerves and excitement and how you can use the findings from your research in moments where you're nervous?

   8. ABAlison Wood Brooks54:28

      Yeah. The... So first of all, if you're feeling anxious...It's so good. It's so good, and it is such a, a clear signal that you care about something. What's better than that about human, human existence? You care about something, and that's precious. So just keep that in mind. Feeling anxious means you care. Um, the recipe for anxiety is uncertainty. You don't know what's gonna happen in the future. You don't know how this job interview's gonna go. You don't know how your work on the job is gonna go. Even in any conversation, I don't know what my partner's gonna say next.

   9. MRMel Robbins55:02

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ABAlison Wood Brooks55:02

       And they could say something tough, they could say something confusing, they could say something very unexpected, and I'm gonna have to respond to that.

   11. MRMel Robbins55:10

       Yep.

   12. ABAlison Wood Brooks55:11

       So uncertainty is the first part of the recipe. The second part is lack of control. Lack of control and uncertainty create these feelings of anxiety, and that's what conversation is. You don't know what's coming next, and you don't have perfect control over what the other person is gonna say and do.

   13. MRMel Robbins55:29

       Okay.

   14. ABAlison Wood Brooks55:29

       So whether it's a job interview or networking or salary negotiation, whatever, of course you're gonna feel anxious. It's hard, and it's- it's uncertain, and you don't have perfect control. So in my research, this was from o- more than a decade ago, um, it was my dissertation research actually, when you're feeling anxious, I really wanted to help people, um, figure out how to cope with it. It's not a problem. It's just a sign that you care about something and that you don't know how it's gonna go. And naturally when people feel anxious, we focus on how- we're focusing on h- all the ways that things could go badly.

   15. MRMel Robbins56:04

       Yes.

   16. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:04

       I start to stutter. I forget to say things. I say something embarrassing. I seem incompetent. I don't get the math problems right. I don't- I- my voice cracks.

   17. MRMel Robbins56:14

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:14

       Whatever you're freaked out about, you're thinking about how things can go badly.

   19. MRMel Robbins56:18

       Correct.

   20. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:18

       The threats.

   21. MRMel Robbins56:19

       Mm-hmm.

   22. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:20

       So in this research what we found is a very simple reframe. When people feel anxious, their instinct is to try to calm down. All right? So do-

   23. MRMel Robbins56:28

       Does that work?

   24. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:29

       No, of course not. (laughs) Anxiety is a high arousal emotion, which means you have increased cortisol. Your- your palms are sweaty. Your heart is racing. These are all physiological signals of high arousal, right?

   25. MRMel Robbins56:43

       Okay.

   26. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:43

       Trying to make that go away and go down is so hard, impossible. It's trying to control your body's natural reactions.

   27. MRMel Robbins56:51

       Okay, so I wanna put the person listening at the scene. So if you're about to walk into the interview of your life-

   28. ABAlison Wood Brooks56:56

       Yeah.

   29. MRMel Robbins56:56

       ... or you're about to walk into your annual review, or you're about to walk in and give the biggest presentation of your school career or your whatever, professional career, as you're pacing in the hallway and your armpits are like waterfalls and your heart is racing and your throat is dry and you feel the thump, thump, thump, thump, thump of your heart because you're about to go do this thing that you care about and you wanna do it well, you're saying, as you're pacing, don't go, "Calm down, calm down. It's gonna be fine."

   30. ABAlison Wood Brooks57:26

       (laughs)

Episode duration: 1:07:34