The Most Important Career Advice You’ll Ever Hear With Harvard Business School’s #1 Professor

Mel Robbins 0:00 What makes you irreplaceable?

Alison Wood Brooks 0:02 You don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone.

Mel Robbins 0:07 Okay, stop. I freaking love that, and we're all stealing that. What are the mistakes that people make-

Alison Wood Brooks 0:13 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 0:13 ... when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion?

Alison Wood Brooks 0:17 They go in sort of righteous and resolute, thinking, "This is what an influential person looks like. This is what they sound like. They're decisive. They're convincing. They're compelling and strong."

Mel Robbins 0:28 Aren't they?

Alison Wood Brooks 0:29 Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel, and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them. Just reminding them relentlessly, "Hey, I'm with you. I got your back." Yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also, your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things.

Mel Robbins 0:50 That right there is worth a million dollars, and let me tell you why. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and welcome to The Mel Robbins Podcast. I am so excited that you're here. It's always such an honor to be able to spend time with you and to be together. And if you're brand new, I just wanna take a moment and welcome you to The Mel Robbins Podcast family. And because you hit play on this episode and you found the time to listen to this, here's what I know about you. You're not only the kinda person that values your time, but you have a lot of ambition, and you're looking for ways to advance your career, and you're in the right place. Your ambition might mean that you wanna make more money or land your dream job, or just get the recognition and respect that you deserve at work. Well, this conversation today is a must listen for you and for everyone that you care about, because there are specific things that you can do, based on the research, to get what you deserve at work and in life. Everything that you're about to learn today comes from 15 years of research from Harvard Business School professor Alison Wood Brooks. She also has a brand new book, Talk, which is all about the science of communication, and it summarizes one of the most popular courses at HBS that she created and teaches. Now, Professor Brooks took time to come over from her Harvard Business School classroom over across the river in Cambridge to be here in our Boston studios for one reason: she's doing it for you. Now, to put this in context, if you were to even get into Harvard Business School, I know I probably couldn't, it would cost you over $100,000 a year to attend. And today, you're getting the biggest takeaways distilled down for free. So if you have somebody in your life who needs to ask for a promotion, or maybe there's someone that you know that is entering what is a very tough job market right now, this conversation today and everything that Professor Brooks is about to share is gonna give you a leg up and the confidence boost you need. And we're also gonna get into some groundbreaking research that changed my life. This is research that will help you nail any interview, it'll help you navigate a difficult conversation, and destroy that presentation that's coming up, no matter how nervous you may be. Class is in session-

Alison Wood Brooks 3:12 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 3:12 ... and it's gonna be a master class at that. Professor Alison Wood Brooks, thank you, thank you, thank you for being here today.

Alison Wood Brooks 3:19 Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.

Mel Robbins 3:21 Well, congratulations on your bestselling new book, Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves, and I cannot wait to have you teach us exactly what to do so that we can get ahead in our careers, we can land our dream jobs, we can get paid what we deserve, and we can manage the stress and anxiety that comes from all things about making money and truly negotiating better. And so I just wanna start by having you tell the person who's listening about your background, the classes that you teach at Harvard Business School, and why they recruited you. They recruited you to come to Harvard Business School to teach negotiation.

Alison Wood Brooks 4:03 Yeah. I'm a behavioral scientist. I went- I got my PhD at Wharton, at the business school in Philadelphia, where I studied emotions and how people feel, how they talk about their feelings, and specifically in the context of negotiations. How do we feel when we're negotiating? How we feel before we negotiate. And I was hired at the Harvard Business School to teach this course on negotiation. And it's an incredible course. It's so valuable. We all need to learn how to negotiate more effectively. I taught that for about four years, and then I started to get a little itchy. I was like, "May- I think the business school might need something else in addition to this negotiation course."

Mel Robbins 4:44 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 4:45 And I, so I, I created a course called Talk that focuses very broadly on how to become a better conversationalist in all areas of your life.

Mel Robbins 4:53 And let me just say, it's not just any course.

Alison Wood Brooks 4:55 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 4:55 This course has a wait list.

Alison Wood Brooks 4:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 4:57 I mean, students are trying to negotiate their way into this course. And before we jump into some of the research and specific things that you're gonna tell us to do in order to get promoted, in order to negotiate a higher salary, in order to find and land our dream jobs, and to also combat the nerves-

Alison Wood Brooks 5:19 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 5:19 ... that come from negotiating and having difficult conversations at work or in our life, can you just talk a little bit about some of the biggest takeaways that the person listening might find very surprising from the Harvard negotiation course?

Alison Wood Brooks 5:34 Yeah. I think when we think of people who- When you imagine a good negotiator, I think this really tough, rigid, persuasive person comes to mind.

Mel Robbins 5:45 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 5:46 When we actually study people negotiating in practice in the real world, often the best negotiators are people who are just great communicators, people who have and are good at developing meaningful relationships, who figure out how to, uh, figure out what other people need, and then figure out how to actually deliver what other people need. Um, it's not about s- getting in there and saying, like, uh, "Give me more money," or, "Give me more power." It's literally giving people, act- actually adding value and, and bringing what people need to them.

Mel Robbins 6:17 I wanna make sure I heard you correctly.

Alison Wood Brooks 6:19 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 6:20 Because if I think about negotiating, whether it's for a higher salary or it's just trying to get the better deal at a car dealership-

Alison Wood Brooks 6:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 6:30 ... or it is winning any kind of argument, I would think that you need to be firm and blustery and-

Alison Wood Brooks 6:38 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 6:38 ... know your value and kind of have the right things to say. But if I'm hearing you correctly, you just said that the best negotiators, based on the research, are people that understand the needs of the person they're trying to get something from?

Alison Wood Brooks 6:55 Of course. Yes. No negotiation... Very few negotiations are about just one issue. It's not like you're gonna be doing this tug-of-war, push-and-pull on the price of a car. There are other issues that matter. For example, starting with nobody wants to talk to somebody who's blustery and, and decisive and harsh.

Mel Robbins 7:15 True.

Alison Wood Brooks 7:16 Like, ev- no one goes into an interaction wanting it to be miserable and confrontational. And so even that itself is a thing that you can deliver to them to make it more pleasant, more enjoyable. That is value that you can bring to them. That's gonna make them more likely to make a concession on price.

Mel Robbins 7:33 So, I wanna take all of the research and the biggest takeaways from the incredibly popular classes that you teach at Harvard, and I wanna apply them to getting ahead in your career, getting a job that is your dream job and actually landing it, networking effectively, managing nerves when you have to have tough conversations. And I wanna go through this one by one.

Mel Robbins 8:01 What is the single biggest factor that determines whether or not somebody actually gets promoted or paid more at work?

Alison Wood Brooks 8:09 It's so funny. When we think about people who get promoted, we think of these powerful people who have l- are sort of, like, m- masters of the universe or maybe tycoons or whatever. In practice, the people who thrive at work, who do well, who perform well, are good at conversation. They're doing a good job talking to their coworkers. They're doing a good job talking to their investors, to their clients, to their customers, to their boss. They are people that everyone likes working with because they're enjoyable to be around and they're bringing value. They're working hard and bringing value to the people around them.

Mel Robbins 8:43 You know, that makes sense, because I remember seeing somewhere this research about the single biggest factor that determines whether or not a woman, in particular, gets promoted, or somebody that is a minority gets promoted, and it's whether or not their contributions are known.

Alison Wood Brooks 9:02 Mm.

Mel Robbins 9:03 And if you really stop and think, if you're somebody who is quiet and you're hoping people know what you're doing and you're not a good communicator because it's not a skill that you've practiced or because your nerves get the best of you, then you're leaving it to hope and chance-

Alison Wood Brooks 9:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:24 ... that you're going to get recognized.

Alison Wood Brooks 9:26 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 9:26 Because your contributions being known is largely determined by whether or not you can communicate effectively.

Alison Wood Brooks 9:34 Yeah. Sometimes your contributions are observable without talking. Sometimes other people will notice and will say something and sort of promote y- fr- about you, talk good about you, something that they've ob- observed. But very often, if you think about a high performer at work and you track back, "Well, how did they become known as a high performer?"

Mel Robbins 9:55 Uh-huh.

Alison Wood Brooks 9:56 You track the chain of information back, and very often, it comes back to a point where it's like, "Well, actually, he told me himself that he just won this award," or that he just figured out th- this new problem or he figured out this new thing. So very often, it comes back around to this idea of, like, you h- if something great is happening and no one's noticing, it's up to you to share it with someone.

Mel Robbins 10:16 You know, I just had this happen because it... we f- found out that we (laughs) are the number one ranked podcast in the world on-

Alison Wood Brooks 10:24 Let's go, Mel.

Mel Robbins 10:24 ... Apple Podcasts.

Alison Wood Brooks 10:25 Let's go.

Mel Robbins 10:25 I mean, it's like I never in a million years imagined a world where I would see The Mel Robbins Podcast ahead of Joe Rogan.

Alison Wood Brooks 10:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:33 And it's funny because even somebody that listens to this show twice a week every week wouldn't know that-

Alison Wood Brooks 10:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 10:42 ... because you're not paying attention to the charts.

Alison Wood Brooks 10:44 That's right.

Mel Robbins 10:45 It's not until I actually say that this is something that has happened that you're aware of this thing that has happened.

Alison Wood Brooks 10:53 And what's so amazing is if you-

Mel Robbins 10:54 And I almost don't wanna say it because I feel like, "Okay, I'm bragging," and then you're not gonna like me, and then you're gonna think I'm full of... Well, let them.

Alison Wood Brooks 11:02 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 11:02 Not to follow my own advice. But what were you gonna say, professor?

Alison Wood Brooks 11:05 I was gonna say now that you've said it, anyone who hears this episode can then go and they can share that information. I can leave our conversation here, and I'm gonna say, "Guess whose podcast I got to go on? And it's so amazing because guess whose the number one podcast right now? It's Mel's podcast." I wouldn't have known that except if you told me. Even, even someone who's coming to visit. So there are so many examples of this where it wouldn't be known unless you shared it.

Mel Robbins 11:32 I think a great rule of thumb is to assume that nobody at work actually knows what you're working on-

Alison Wood Brooks 11:37 That's right.

Mel Robbins 11:37 ... unless you are very good at communicating and you're making it known.

Alison Wood Brooks 11:43 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:43 I have a question, because at Harvard Business School, y'all do a lot of research on what makes for effective CEOs and what makes for influential leaders-

Alison Wood Brooks 11:53 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 11:54 ... at work. And this applies to all of us, this research. It's not just, you know, somebody in a company. This is about whether or not you do a good job leading a group of volunteers to do something, whether or not you're a good leader in the Little League, uh, you know, kind of system that everybody and all your friends are coaching in.

Alison Wood Brooks 12:12 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 12:12 Leadership is a function of your ability to influence other people. So, when you look at the research that is done at Harvard Business School, what is the most kind of overlooked skill...... of great leaders.

Alison Wood Brooks 12:28 Yeah. I think this is part of why my course has been such a hit and why it sort of s- hits such a nerve. When even when our students are in business school, they focus on hard skills like, "Oh, I'm gonna learn as much as I can about finance, I'm gonna learn as much as I can about accounting, I'm gonna learn as much as I can about private equity." But when you revisit with actual leaders out in the world, whether it's at a ver- a fancy company and they're a CEO or the manager of the night shift of the serving staff at a restaurant, every time, everything they have in common, they say, "I've been successful because I'm good at interacting with the people around me."

Mel Robbins 13:05 Mm.

Alison Wood Brooks 13:05 "I'm- I'm good at connecting with people. I'm good at figuring out what people need and helping them get it." Um, conversation is this incredible superpower that not enough of us are taking advantage of.

Mel Robbins 13:18 Well, it's true, because if I think about wanting to be successful, whether it's launching a business, or having a side hustle, or just continuing to get promoted and feel like I'm growing at work, or to land my dream job and network effectively, I'm thinking more about these things I'm supposed to do, but I'm not thinking a lot about the importance of mastering the skill of communication along the way.

Alison Wood Brooks 13:44 And it is a skill. Yeah. And- and- and nowadays, because of this new science of conversation, it's a more quantifiable skill than ever before, and we've learned so much about how to build this skill.

Mel Robbins 13:55 And, Professor Brooks, you've already said something twice now that I wanna highlight, that I wanna make sure that the person listening caught this, because I know this is one of these conversations that is going to get shared, particularly probably with parents and grandparents down to, you know, nephews and nieces and sons and daughters, around looking for jobs-

Alison Wood Brooks 14:19 Mm.

Mel Robbins 14:20 ... and actually being successful and influential in your career.

Mel Robbins 14:24 You have now said twice, in talking about the science and research around being effective as a leader and a communicator, that it's about helping the other person-

Alison Wood Brooks 14:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 14:36 ... or understanding what the other person wants, and that being a key component of the skill of communication. So if I take that nugget, and I now say, "Okay, how the heck does that apply-"

Alison Wood Brooks 14:51 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 14:51 "... to me wanting to ask for a raise? Like, isn't there a script that I need to follow, where I march in, and I'm confident, and I ask for what I want and then negotiate in a really powerful way, and that means I'm gonna get it?"

Alison Wood Brooks 15:03 Yeah. We'd like to... I- I think it's easy to think about, um, that someone walks in, and they're confident, and they say, "I deserve a raise because of X, Y, and Z," and you lay out the data, and you say, "Because I'm great and you owe this to me-"

Mel Robbins 15:16 Right.

Alison Wood Brooks 15:16 ... before you actually figure out what's in their mind. Um, "What do you value in an employee? Am I doing a good job? What- how can I add more value? What could make this organization better? How could I be more pleasant to be around? How could I be more helpful to th- our- my colleagues?" And this is not the mindset that people usually go in with. They go in with this, "I'm strong, and I'm gonna convince you that I'm right and deserving." There are questions like, "How many other people do you have available to you that you- could y- you could replace me with?" That's an important question. If that- if your boss has a queue of 200 other resumes sitting on their desk, you're probably not in a great- a very powerful position to walk in and say, "Hey, give me a raise." But if you are bringing a lot of value, and you're hard to replace, then maybe you are in a better position to talk about that.

Mel Robbins 16:05 So I just wanna make sure I got this straight. (laughs) 'Cause I feel a little bad because I was out to dinner last night, believe it or not. I mean, I love how the universe works. And the person that was waiting on our table came up, and it turns out that they're a huge fan of this podcast, and it was really cool. And I said, "Oh, well, what topic would you want me to cover?" And I kid you not, she said, "I'm the manager at this restaurant, and next week, I'm going in, and I'm asking for a raise." And I think I gave her the wrong advice.

Alison Wood Brooks 16:40 What'd you tell her?

Mel Robbins 16:41 Well, the first thing I said to her is I said, "The one thing I don't want you to do is do not look at Glassdoor and do not find every other salary range in your area and then assume that your boss should pay you that, because that doesn't feel like you telling me that you're irreplaceable. That feels like an ultimatum." And when somebody does that to me, it makes me go, "Okay, well, if you'd like to get paid that at a different restaurant, go get that job."

Alison Wood Brooks 17:08 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:09 And I then said to her, "What I would do is I would look back through your calendar and your photographs and jog your memory and try to come up with a list of all of the problems you solve, all of the things that you do that your boss-

Alison Wood Brooks 17:22 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:22 ... does not realize that you do. Come up with the number of different jobs that you do, and then also come up with the reasoning behind why you wanna grow in this role-

Alison Wood Brooks 17:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:35 ... and why that's important to you." But I didn't say, "I want you to first stop and put yourself in your boss's shoes."

Alison Wood Brooks 17:46 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 17:46 "What does your boss need in an incredible manager? What makes you irreplaceable?" And I think that's something that nobody is talking about.

Alison Wood Brooks 17:56 Yeah. And- or take the li- the- you've now instructed her to make this, like, log of things that she's done. She could bring the log to her boss and say, "Which of these things is most valuable to you? What do you think is- what am I doing here that you love so that I can do more of that? Which of these do you think I should do less of? W- how can I grow in this role? What should I be doing, uh, differently, better, great? Which of these are most valuable to you that make you want to hold onto me?"

Mel Robbins 18:24 So you would have that conversation before you actually have the one where you're truly asking for the promotion or the raise?

Alison Wood Brooks 18:30 Yeah. And this is true of any conversation where you're trying to be... The- the mindset of trying to be persuasive is a very dangerous mindset.

Mel Robbins 18:39 What do you mean?

Alison Wood Brooks 18:39 There are so many conversations where we go in and we, uh, often at work, and we want to persuade someone to agree with us. "I wanna persuade my boss that I am deserving of a raise."

Mel Robbins 18:50 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 18:51 But the way to do that, ultimately, the way to be persuasive is to go in with a learning mindset. When you go in and you try and learn as much as you can about what's valuable to them, what's valuable to the organization, what do they love about what you're doing, what do they hate about what you're doing, learn, learn, learn, ultimately, that conversation's gonna feel like the two of you are solving a problem together, rather than arguing and pushing and pulling and you trying to persuade them to agree with you. And ultimately, you will ironically end up being more persuasive.

Mel Robbins 19:23 Who knew that the Harvard Business School professor who teaches the course in the science of communication and negotiation would give us unbelievably amazing advice?

Alison Wood Brooks 19:34 Aw.

Mel Robbins 19:35 No, I'm not kidding because-

Alison Wood Brooks 19:36 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 19:36 ... it's kinda one of those steps that's so obvious that you miss it.

Alison Wood Brooks 19:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:40 Because the truth is, anybody that works for me that makes my job easier, you're invaluable.

Alison Wood Brooks 19:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:45 Anybody that solves problems before they become a problem for me, you're invaluable.

Alison Wood Brooks 19:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 19:50 You get in early, you stay late, you're invaluable.

Alison Wood Brooks 19:53 And it's not a trick, and it's not like a, you're going to this conversation and you're gonna try and trick them. It's so authentic and s- and rooted in reality. You do, you need to figure out what's valuable to them and then deliver it, and then you become invaluable to them.

Mel Robbins 20:08 Of course.

Alison Wood Brooks 20:09 And that's how, that's how relationships work. That's how work works.

Mel Robbins 20:12 I think most of us do the opposite. I've certainly been guilty when I've been an employee, and I make a lousy employee-

Alison Wood Brooks 20:21 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 20:21 ... because I watch what's happening in the company-

Alison Wood Brooks 20:23 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 20:24 ... and then I go, "Oh, they're successful, therefore I deserve more, therefore I am owed more." And then I start to feel entitled-

Alison Wood Brooks 20:30 Mm.

Mel Robbins 20:31 ... and then I rehearse my little script, and then I go in with my hands on my hips and my case that I'm gonna make and then it's, like, denied.

Alison Wood Brooks 20:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 20:39 And that step of going, "Have I even sat with my boss and asked, 'What would make your life easier? What would make me irreplaceable? What are you looking for me to do that I'm not doing?"

Alison Wood Brooks 20:50 Totally.

Mel Robbins 20:51 "What are the things that I do that you actually value? What is a total waste of time?"

Alison Wood Brooks 20:54 Or if you're actually feeling, um, sort of the social comparison thing of this high performer, you could go in and say, "What are they doing that's, that's awesome that I could do more of?"

Mel Robbins 21:03 Mm.

Alison Wood Brooks 21:03 Make it practical. We all do social comparison, but it's y- often, um, useless, a sort of waste of your emotional energy. Turn that waste into something productive, which is, like, so much of what we observe in other people is this sort of myth of naturalness or, "They're not doing that much more than me. They're not doing anything special," or, "That just comes naturally to them." When you dig under the hood and you actually ask people, "What do they do that's, that's good? How do they make people around them feel? What are, what work are they getting done?" You realize, "Oh, I'm not doing that. I c- but I could. I could try." So there's just a lo- there's a lot more to learn there than you think.

Mel Robbins 21:40 You know, Professor Brooks, that right there is worth a million dollars, and let me tell you why. Because typically when you see somebody who is performing at work, or they are excelling at work, or they are hitting their numbers or whatever, you tend to see that example and then you either invalidate yourself-

Alison Wood Brooks 21:59 Mm.

Mel Robbins 22:00 ... or you go (imitates person speaking nonsensically) and what you're saying is, "No, no, no, no, no, there are skills, there are habits, there are patterns of behavior that this person engages in. How about you operate for a couple weeks and you just mirror what that person is doing?"

Alison Wood Brooks 22:17 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 22:17 Because that person is demonstrating the behavior and the communication style and the work style that actually wins in this organization.

Alison Wood Brooks 22:26 Yeah, it's, it's undeniable proof that they're doing something right, even if it feels like those behaviors are sort of detestable. If you track back and you say, "But yeah, he was the one who said that he was great at this and now you're all just listening to him," well, he nailed it. They're listening to him. He's succeeding. Maybe you have something to learn from that.

Mel Robbins 22:43 Wow. You know, I could see how this also plays out in personal situations, and I'm gonna just take a small tangent because I wanna just put my arm around the person to make you understand that what we're actually talking about is influence.

Alison Wood Brooks 22:57 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 22:58 Your ability to influence other people's behavior to your benefit. And so, you know, an, uh, an example that comes to mind immediately that I realize I completely screwed up is the negotiating with my husband for how we're gonna spend our holidays. His family, my family. And I think we all can think of situations where we get highly charged and then we march in and demand what we want instead of stopping to think, "Okay, well, what does my partner care about? What does-"

Alison Wood Brooks 23:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:31 "... this roommate care about?" And doing that homework, Professor Brooks, to force yourself out of your point of view and go, "Well, what might that person care about and how can I start the negotiation?" Really being interested in what that person cares about instead of jamming my opinion like a poop sandwich down their throat for them-

Alison Wood Brooks 23:53 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 23:53 ... to choke down. No, that, like, I, I, I-

Alison Wood Brooks 23:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:56 I can see the mistakes that I've made-

Alison Wood Brooks 23:59 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 23:59 ... over and over and over again. And, you know, from your point of view, Professor Brooks, what are the mistakes that people make-

Alison Wood Brooks 24:06 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 24:06 ... when they go in and they're asking for more money or a promotion?

Alison Wood Brooks 24:10 Yeah. They, they go in and do what you're saying, which is they go in sort of righteous and resolute, thinking, "This is what an influential person looks like."

Mel Robbins 24:18 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 24:18 "This is what they sound like. They're decisive, they're convincing, they're compelling and strong."

Mel Robbins 24:23 Aren't they?

Alison Wood Brooks 24:24 But when you talk about dialogue, when you talk about, "Oh, this is, there's a human being on the receiving end of this," and you realize that every encounter, whether it's a jo-, a salary negotiation, or a first date, or whatever, that's another human mind sitting on the other end, and they need to receive what you're saying. So going in with your hands on your hips and making your argument, this is not a public speech. This is a co-created dialogue-

Mel Robbins 24:49 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 24:49 ... with another person who has needs and wants and desires and opinions and beliefs that differ from yours, and you need to figure out what they are in order to be the best position to actually deliver what they need.

Mel Robbins 25:01 How does knowing what somebody else needs help me get what I want?

Alison Wood Brooks 25:06 Oh my goodness. It's the, it's the most direct pathway. And the, and the thing is, Mel, we're not good at guessing what other people need. Even with people you know well, like your, like your husband.

Mel Robbins 25:15 Well, then how the hell am I gonna know what my boss needs?

Alison Wood Brooks 25:17 You gotta ask questions. Endlessly ask questions. You can ask them, "What do you need? What are you excited about? What is this other employee doing that's so great? How can I do better? What do you, what am I doing on my list of tasks that I'm totally nailing? What could I do better?" Right? You need to be a sort of glutton for learning, a glutton for feedback, and then it will actually make you invaluable to them and put you in that powerful position to say, "Look. I know I'm invaluable to you. You've told me, and now I think I deserve more."

Mel Robbins 25:45 Well, you've also just signaled that you're now wanting to succeed and that you're not gonna waste time guessing.

Alison Wood Brooks 25:52 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 25:53 That you're willing to align and be flexible to cause more value for us.

Alison Wood Brooks 26:00 You yourself want to succeed, and at the same time, you're signaling, "I want us to succeed. I want this organization, I want this restaurant, I want this investment bank, I want whatever, this school, I want us as a group to succeed. Let's figure out how I can help us do that."

Mel Robbins 26:15 So, I think most of us probably wait until our annual or mid-year review to do this.

Alison Wood Brooks 26:20 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 26:20 But when is the best time?

Alison Wood Brooks 26:23 I really love more casual feedback.

Mel Robbins 26:25 Okay.

Alison Wood Brooks 26:26 So, it's so stressful to go into, like, a 360 review or your annual feedback meeting and everybody's nervous and it feels very high stakes. You have the opportunity to ask questions anytime. Any-

Mel Robbins 26:36 That's true.

Alison Wood Brooks 26:37 Anytime you see somebody. "Hey, I tried this thing. Here's, let me give you, like, show you a video. Let me show you what, wha- what do you think about this? Was this a good idea that I did this? What could I have done better? You were in that presentation I gave the other day. What did you think of my slides? Like, what could I do, have done better? Should I have not even used slides?" Right? There, the opportunity to ask for lower stakes, more casual feedback is always there, but it requires that you ask those questions.

Mel Robbins 27:01 Well, and the more you do that, the more you're in a dialogue where it's pretty clear you're a valuable contributor.

Alison Wood Brooks 27:10 Exactly. And they're more invested. It's causing people around you to actually think about you, right? It's saying, like, "Hey, I care about your opinion, and now we have a meaningful enough relationship where I feel comfortable asking you." That's so valuable. Like, you're embedded, you're enmeshed in this sort of social net. Organizations are just a group of people who care about what they're working on.

Mel Robbins 27:30 So, let's say you're a shift

Mel Robbins 27:31 worker, right? One of my, uh, daughters works at a restaurant.

Alison Wood Brooks 27:34 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:35 And let's just say she wants better shifts.

Alison Wood Brooks 27:37 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 27:38 How do you use this strategy to try to negotiate without being very direct around getting better shifts? And I'm not saying for the record that my daughter wants better shifts. I'm just using it-

Alison Wood Brooks 27:51 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 27:51 ... as an example 'cause somebody might listen to this-

Alison Wood Brooks 27:54 She put you up to this. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 27:54 ... at the restaurant. Yes, exactly. But as a former waitress and bartender, I know when the schedule comes out and you're like, "Ugh, another crappy shift. How do I get the good shift?"

Alison Wood Brooks 28:03 Totally. I spent many years of my life waitressing too. I know this feeling. Um, so I think there's a couple answers. The, the first question is, who are you talking to? Who are you targeting?

Mel Robbins 28:13 Oh.

Alison Wood Brooks 28:13 Because you could talk to your fellow servers first and say, "Are you also unhappy with your shifts? Do you, are there any opportunities for us to trade?" That would be win-win, right?

Mel Robbins 28:23 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 28:23 So that's, we call that trading on differences. People have different preferences. There might be win-wins in there to trade with the fellow servers.

Mel Robbins 28:29 Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks 28:30 Um, you could then, if, if not, if that's not an option, uh, you can go and talk to your boss and say like, "When are you, when you're making this schedule, what are you thinking about? What, is there something about this shift that you think I'm uniquely positioned to do? Am I doing a good job here? What value am I bringing?" Um, or, "What, this, I would really love to be on this earlier shift, but I see that, you know, this other server's there. Do you think they're uniquely positioned to be there? What are they doing that's great?"

Mel Robbins 28:54 Or, "What could I do to put myself in a position-"

Alison Wood Brooks 28:57 To earn-

Mel Robbins 28:57 ... to be considered."

Alison Wood Brooks 28:58 ... that spot?

Mel Robbins 28:58 Yes.

Alison Wood Brooks 28:59 "What can I do to earn it?"

Mel Robbins 29:00 You know what I love about this, is that oftentimes, and I'll speak as an employer and as a parent.

Alison Wood Brooks 29:07 (laughs) Right? 'Cause-

Mel Robbins 29:08 'Cause you're sort of like an employer.

Alison Wood Brooks 29:10 ... kids are constantly negotiating. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 29:11 Um, oftentimes it feels a little bit like me against you.

Alison Wood Brooks 29:15 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:16 And what I love about this strategy, Professor Brooks, is that all of a sudden, you, in a very sneaky way, you made me with you.

Alison Wood Brooks 29:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:25 And so there was nothing adversarial. There was nothing confrontational. It's not like you're making me wrong 'cause I didn't put you on the great Saturday night shift. You're basically saying, like, "What do I need to do to put myself in a position to be considered, which then allows me to be with you-

Alison Wood Brooks 29:42 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 29:43 ... versus against you?"

Alison Wood Brooks 29:44 Their job is hard. The job that they're doing to decide who's doing what shift is a complicated puzzle to solve. And so you're saying, "I see that this is a complicated puzzle. How can I help you solve this puzzle and how can I become a more valued part of the, of the, of the puzzle?" Um, this is a really great mindset shift. Whenever you're in a confronta-, whenever you confront even a tiny disagreement, instead of thinking of it as confrontational-

Mel Robbins 30:09 Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks 30:09 ... instead s-, setting it aside and saying like, "I'm with you. I care about you. I see what you're doing is hard. Let's try and solve this together."... that's a really important mindset shift. And it's almost always true, right? Whether it's with your spouse, or your kid, or your boss, these are people you really care about and admire. You don't need to be getting in a fight with them about really, uh, anything.

Mel Robbins 30:29 I feel like my husband has taken your negotiation and your science of communication course because he constantly, when I start to get agitated about something, he'll be like, "Mel, I'm not against you."

Alison Wood Brooks 30:41 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:42 Like, "We need to work on this thing together."

Alison Wood Brooks 30:44 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 30:45 Which gets me out of that, like, adversarial thing. And I think we do feel that way particularly at work because money, livelihood, a sense of feeling good about yourself and that you're progressing, that you start to get really nervous about it.

Alison Wood Brooks 31:01 Humans need a lot of affirmation, Mel, and you can give it to them in these tiny little moments in your conversations with them. Just reminding them relentlessly, "Hey, I'm with you. I got your back. Like, I see you've ... It makes sense that you feel upset about where you are in the schedule. Let's talk about how it could get better in the future, right? Like, we're in this together. I'm affirming you, and also, I can't move you in this right now," right?

Mel Robbins 31:26 Well, I think that's important because a lot of us have adversarial relationships with our boss-

Alison Wood Brooks 31:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:31 ... or with our business partners.

Alison Wood Brooks 31:33 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 31:33 And we think they're against us.

Alison Wood Brooks 31:35 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 31:35 And it's a huge shift. And again, I'm gonna remind you as you're listening, she's not making this up. I mean, this is what they're teaching at Harvard Business School in the renowned course on negotiation, and this is what you are summarizing in your best-selling book Talk, which is based on you teaching one of the most popular classes at Harvard Business School. Learning how to communicate and negotiate effectively is a important skill that helps you have more influence, make more money, be more effective with your family, with everybody. So let's say that you take this important advice, and you actually have been peppering with small conversations.

Alison Wood Brooks 32:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 32:19 And you've been putting yourself in the person's shoes that you're now trying to get something from. Is there a certain time when to have the conversation if you've been having all the little conversations all along to try to understand their position?

Alison Wood Brooks 32:35 Yeah. If you've had these conversations and you feel like you really understand how you're adding value, you've really put in the effort to become this sort of invaluable, irreplaceable, um, contributor, and you really have assessed and been honest with yourself, "Do I deserve more?" And you get to this place where you're like, "Yes, I think I do," after all of that, which is important, that's an important first step, um, then this, then, uh, you get to this point where you need to work up the courage to say, "Is there a world where you could even afford ... Could you give me a raise? Can the organization afford it? Can you afford it? Do you agree with me? Because I'm feeling like I really need it, and it would really help me."

Mel Robbins 33:16 Well, hold on a second. That sounds weak. I'm just gonna come right out and be like, it sounds weak to say, "Could you afford it?" and, "I need it."

Alison Wood Brooks 33:23 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:23 You know what I'm saying?

Alison Wood Brooks 33:24 Yeah. Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:24 Like, that's actually the language you should use?

Alison Wood Brooks 33:26 Depends. It depends on where you're going. I mean, o- if-

Mel Robbins 33:28 I mean, if it's a waitressing job, that's one thing.

Alison Wood Brooks 33:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:31 But, like, if you're working in a company and you got healthcare and you got a 401K-

Alison Wood Brooks 33:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 33:36 ... really?

Alison Wood Brooks 33:37 I think so. I think in our minds, we have this image of what strength looks and sounds like.

Mel Robbins 33:42 Uh-huh.

Alison Wood Brooks 33:42 But in the experience of a, of a conversation, strength actually looks quite different. It's people who go in open-minded with good data, good reasons, good reflection, and you can say, "Hey, we've had a lot of conversations about this. I know you think I'm doing a really great job, that I'm invaluable to you because of these things that we've talked about before. We've gotten to a point now where I'm really hoping that you could reward me for it."

Mel Robbins 34:06 Put your money where your mouth is, asshole.

Alison Wood Brooks 34:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:07 No, is that what you're saying? No? (laughs)

Alison Wood Brooks 34:09 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah. I think we have this idea of what strength looks like that in the practice of human-to-human connection and conversation is not actually how it plays out.

Mel Robbins 34:17 Well, what's also interesting is if you work for a larger company, the fact of the matter is a lot of this is tied to your title-

Alison Wood Brooks 34:24 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:25 ... and to your tenure, and it's also gonna require the person you report to to then have to go advocate on your behalf. And it's not always as personal as you'd like to think. But if you're in a smaller organization, the presumption that the company's doing well, therefore you deserve to do, you know, a lot better than you currently are is kind of an arrogant presumption 'cause you haven't seen the PnL.

Alison Wood Brooks 34:48 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 34:48 So actually asking, "Could you even be in a position to do this? 'Cause you agree that I'm killing it here."

Alison Wood Brooks 34:54 It actually is a very-

Mel Robbins 34:55 What can we do?

Alison Wood Brooks 34:55 It's a very ... The questions of, "Are you the right per-"

Mel Robbins 34:57 It's kind of tricky actually.

Alison Wood Brooks 34:59 ... "Are you the right person to ... Do you have the power to even say yes to me?" Figuring out who to talk to is a really hard question. They may not ... They may ... They would love to give you a raise, but they don't have the power to do it. Or they would love to give you a raise, but they can't afford to do it. These are all things you need to figure out. It's not weak to ask.

Mel Robbins 35:16 Right.

Alison Wood Brooks 35:17 It's, it's smart to really be thinking, "Are they in a position where they can give me what I want? Are they, are their hands tied?"

Mel Robbins 35:24 Well, and I suppose if they're not in a position, you can also say, "Well, look, I'm looking to make $10,000, $20,000 more. What do I need to do here-

Alison Wood Brooks 35:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 35:32 ... to actually have that happen?"

Alison Wood Brooks 35:34 And they might say, "You need to bring in more clients so that I can afford to give it to you," right? And that, that's good to learn. And then you can go out and do it.

Mel Robbins 35:41 Yes. This is so helpful.

Alison Wood Brooks 35:44 Can I tell you, say, one more thing now?

Mel Robbins 35:46 Yes.

Alison Wood Brooks 35:46 Much

Alison Wood Brooks 35:47 of our conversation has focused on asking for a raise, asking for more money. A very big takeaway from the negotiation course at, at HBS and this Talk book is, yes, money matters tremendously. We all know that. But also, your happiness at work and outside of work so heavily rests on so many other things about your work, the meaning of your work, how connected you feel to your coworkers, to your boss, your relationships. Do you have a work bestie? Do you have anybody there that you enjoy being around? Is there convenient parking? Is there good coffee? These things are not insignificant. So when you find yourself over-fixating on getting that $10,000 raise, I would urge people to also really think about, what are other things? If my company can't afford to give me $10,000 or $20,000 more a year-... are there other things that would make my life so much better-

Mel Robbins 36:40 Mm.

Alison Wood Brooks 36:40 ... so much more pleasant, that are not about money at all?

Mel Robbins 36:43 Like, could I do a four-day work week? Could I-

Alison Wood Brooks 36:45 Could I do a four-day w- work week? Can I get, can we get an espresso machine in the office? Can I, could, I have a friend who's really well-qualified for this, uh, open role that we have, could we think about hiring them? I would love, that would make me so happy to work with them. You know, think creatively. Think outside of just one issue.

Mel Robbins 37:01 That's so true because we do get fixated.

Alison Wood Brooks 37:04 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:04 And not to say that the money isn't important and not to say you don't deserve-

Alison Wood Brooks 37:09 For sure.

Mel Robbins 37:10 ... to be compensated for the contributions and the effort that you're making. And I do think the other thing, too, is, is that a lot of times, at least speaking for myself, is I would show up in a role and do the job that was asked of me.

Alison Wood Brooks 37:27 Right.

Mel Robbins 37:27 And then I expect because I'm doing the job that's asked of me-

Alison Wood Brooks 37:31 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:31 ... that, by the way, they could hire 100 other people-

Alison Wood Brooks 37:34 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 37:34 ... to do the job that is asked of me.

Alison Wood Brooks 37:36 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 37:37 But am I contributing more so that I am more valuable? And these are not the conversations that I ever had with myself because I was so busy going, "My friends in investment banking are making all this money and-"

Alison Wood Brooks 37:51 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 37:51 ... you know, "I want this and I want that. Look at these influencers online and, you know, my company looks like they're doing well and my boss drives a nice car, so therefore I should," you know, ba, ba, ba, ba. And you get up in that mindset.

Alison Wood Brooks 38:01 Dangerous.

Mel Robbins 38:02 Very.

Alison Wood Brooks 38:03 Yeah. And, uh, there's a saying of, like, dress for the job that you want, but it's more than dress like the, you need to behave like the job that you want. So if they, they hired you to do a very simple job, if you start doing things that are actually above and beyond and more valuable, truly valuable to the organization, you're already doing the next level job.

Mel Robbins 38:22 Mm.

Alison Wood Brooks 38:23 And you can go in and point that out to them and they might say, "Yeah, you're right." Like, "We need to reward you for, we need to pay you like you're doing that job."

Mel Robbins 38:29 So if the

Mel Robbins 38:30 research is undisputed that making your contributions known is one of the most effective things that you can be doing because just assume your boss is so busy, they don't even know all the things that you're doing, and if you're really good at your job, you're taking care of so much, that they're not aware of it 'cause it's not on fire anymore.

Alison Wood Brooks 38:47 Yup.

Mel Robbins 38:47 So, are there strategies, um, that you recommend that somebody think about in terms of how you make sure that the value that you're providing is known at work?

Alison Wood Brooks 39:00 I think two things. One, um, keeping notes. If you feel like you've done something valuable, make note of it. In academia, we have these very long, uh, CVs that, where we track, like, everything, every little move we make, every conference we attend, every tiny poster that you present, every paper that you publish. And it seems a little bit rel- ridiculous, but in retrospect when you look back, you say, "No, that was just keeping notes on all the little things that I did that felt like it added value to the field, added value to my organization, to my co-authors," all of it.

Mel Robbins 39:30 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 39:30 And so you can see why that's valuable. It's sort of undisputable evidence of all of the value that you added-

Mel Robbins 39:36 Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks 39:36 ... somewhere. And-

Mel Robbins 39:37 And it's sort of like if, if a year goes by and you look back at your camera roll and you're like, "Oh my God, I forgot that I went on that trip in July-"

Alison Wood Brooks 39:42 We-

Mel Robbins 39:42 "... and saw my friends." Yes.

Alison Wood Brooks 39:43 Everyone forgets. Th- how can you expect your boss to know and remember if you yourself don't even remember?

Mel Robbins 39:49 Yup.

Alison Wood Brooks 39:49 So, keeping notes in some way, some document where you're keeping track of what you've done is sort of part one. And part two is, talk to people about it. Tell, tell people when you've done something that you feel proud of or you feel like could be valuable, don't keep it a secret. Like, no one's gonna know about it and yes, maybe it brings you a sense of pride, but in terms of work, it's really valuable to share it.

Mel Robbins 40:12 I have two other things that I would love to share as ideas because I remember when my daughter started at this massive cybersecurity firm and they didn't do any, like, just one-on-one training-

Alison Wood Brooks 40:25 Mm.

Mel Robbins 40:26 ... on what makes for a good week, what do you do on a Monday, what do you do on a Friday? And so the first piece of advice was exactly what you're saying. Every single week on a Friday, take out your notes app or take out a running document and write down the things that you worked on.

Alison Wood Brooks 40:40 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 40:41 And the second thing, which I think is a great idea, is at the end of the week, send a short email to your boss-

Alison Wood Brooks 40:47 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 40:47 ... and just say, "These are all the things that I got done this week. These are the things that I'm still working on next week. Is there anything that's a higher strategic priority-"

Alison Wood Brooks 40:57 Mm.

Mel Robbins 40:57 "... that you want me to focus on next week?" And what happens when you do that is now in one email you've communicated everything you've done-

Alison Wood Brooks 41:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:05 ... and you've recalibrated to see if there's something strategic that is on your boss' mind that you now need to prioritize.

Alison Wood Brooks 41:14 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:15 And the third thing, and I heard this from somebody else, I can't remember who said this, it was at, you know, a big kind of conference that I was speaking at and I thought it was brilliant. If you solve a problem, and it could be anything, you could be working at a big box retailer and you had to mop up something and the mop didn't work and so you use something else. If you solve a problem, send an email wide-

Alison Wood Brooks 41:39 Mm-hmm.

Mel Robbins 41:40 ... about what happened and how you solved it because then you become a person that has wider visibility

Mel Robbins 41:48 of being somebody that's very proactive.

Alison Wood Brooks 41:50 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 41:50 And it matters. And even if they don't promote you at your work, guess what? You now have a record of all this stuff for when you're interviewing.

Alison Wood Brooks 41:57 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 41:57 Which brings me to my big pivot.

Alison Wood Brooks 41:59 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 41:59 Let's talk about looking for a job, Professor Brooks.

Alison Wood Brooks 42:02 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 42:03 'Cause right now you're at Harvard Business School-

Alison Wood Brooks 42:05 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:06 ... and you got a lot of HBS students who are in the job market.

Alison Wood Brooks 42:11 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:11 And this is a conversation that's coming out where the news feels scary and AI is taking over jobs and people who are very qualified are having a hard time finding a job and people that are just entering the job market or getting back into it are feeling very overwhelmed.

Alison Wood Brooks 42:29 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 42:30 As a Harvard Business School professor, what do you see as some of the big mistakes that people make when they either start looking for a job or interviewing for one?

Alison Wood Brooks 42:40 Yeah. If you're having a hard time finding a job, you are not alone. This is a big problem right now, it's a big challenge. Even our students at HBS are struggling with this too, um, so you're not alone. Um, one- some of the biggest mistakes that I see people make on, on the job market is- is very similar to what we were talking about with promotions, is thinking, is focusing on, "How can I be the most interesting, qualified, exciting candidate?" Rather than thinking, "What does this organization need? What do they need and how can I fill that need?" Right? So it's much more, um, co-created than, "How can I be my best self?"

Mel Robbins 43:18 Mm.

Alison Wood Brooks 43:19 Because just being your best self may not be at all what they're looking for, and almost any job that you find yourself in is gonna require some flexibility for you to adapt to what they need from you. Um, and so trying to figure that out a priori or before you give, uh, before you do a job interview, before you interact with them is so very valuable.

Mel Robbins 43:40 Let me back up a minute, because I remember reading somewhere that 80% of open jobs aren't even listed.

Alison Wood Brooks 43:47 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 43:47 And that most jobs are filled based on networking.

Alison Wood Brooks 43:51 Of course, um, yeah, I would believe that.

Mel Robbins 43:54 So Professor Brooks, how do you teach Harvard Business School students to be better networkers?

Alison Wood Brooks 44:01 Oh. It's- it's such a key. The keys to networking are the same as the keys to all- being a- a valuable person in the world, right? It's all about, um, m- m- s- initiating and creating and sustaining meaningful relationships with people. It's not like a trick that you walk into some networking event and you're like, "Let me dazzle everybody."

Mel Robbins 44:23 (laughs)

Alison Wood Brooks 44:23 "Let me be the coolest guy in the room." No. It's really figuring out, what are they interested in? What are they excited about? What do they need right now? And am I the right fit for that? What can- what value can I bring to them? I remember a lot of my colleagues in grad school, when you go on the academic job market, they would go to these networking events and they'd be like, "Oh, I'm so nervous to talk to this person, so nervous." And I remember thinking, "That's so interesting. Like, all you really need to do is ask questions or think ahead. Oh, that person's working on this really interesting topic, let me do a little bit of reading about that topic and brainstorm. What is that area missing and what could I fill for them? Do I know something about an interesting research methodology? Do I know someone else who's working on cool stuff that I could introduce them to?"

Mel Robbins 45:07 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 45:08 Really thinking ahead about what value you could actually bring to that person. Then interacting with them is not nerve-wracking, 'cause you're actually prepared and bringing value to them.

Mel Robbins 45:17 So if you were thinking about this from the standpoint of somebody who's just graduating from college-

Alison Wood Brooks 45:24 Mm.

Mel Robbins 45:24 ... and feels like they have nothing to offer, or somebody getting back into the workforce after taking time off, having kids or caring for an aging parent, or somebody that got laid off and now their confidence has taken a hit, so you're kind of at ground zero.

Alison Wood Brooks 45:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:39 You know what I mean?

Alison Wood Brooks 45:39 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 45:39 You're like, on LinkedIn, you're, "Who can I network with?"

Alison Wood Brooks 45:43 (laughs) .

Mel Robbins 45:43 You're going and sending things to alumni from your high school and your college. Is there something about networking that you want the person listening to really think about it differently? Because I do think-

Alison Wood Brooks 46:00 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:01 ... when you're in that position where you don't have a job and you're like, "Where do I even begin? And my mom's telling me to reach out to this friend of hers that she knew five years ago, and I don't even know what to say," and you don't know, you know what-

Alison Wood Brooks 46:16 Yes.

Mel Robbins 46:16 ... 'cause I've been there and you're just like, "What the hell do I even say?"

Alison Wood Brooks 46:19 Totally.

Mel Robbins 46:19 Do you just come right out and say, "Look it."

Alison Wood Brooks 46:21 Or am I qualified for this? Yeah.

Mel Robbins 46:21 Like, yes, yes. Professor Brooks, help me out here.

Alison Wood Brooks 46:24 I- there are a lot of- so young people feel unqualified, um, m- you know, parents who have taken time off from the workforce and are going back feel unqualified, like they've like lost pace with technology-

Mel Robbins 46:35 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 46:35 ... or that their skills are no longer relevant. There's so many people out there that feel like they're not qualified or like, "What should I even say?" Or, "Am I even- can I be helpful to them?" Here's my advice, and re- I really mean this. Um, it is so much more rewarding to connect with people in person or on the phone than it is through a networking website or through LinkedIn or through-

Mel Robbins 46:57 Okay.

Alison Wood Brooks 46:57 ... which is valuable, very valuable, but a real human connection makes you so much more memorable to somebody. And when- when you go and have a coffee j- chat with someone, don't go trying to impress them, go because you're truly curious to fi- like learn from them. What do they work on? What are their pain points right now? What are they struggling with? What do they love about the job?

Mel Robbins 47:16 So start with the informational.

Alison Wood Brooks 47:18 Yeah. (laughs)

Mel Robbins 47:18 Like, "I'm looking for something. My mom, my dad, my neighbor, my roommate said you'd be a great person to talk to."

Alison Wood Brooks 47:24 I don't even know if I would start with that, Mel.

Mel Robbins 47:25 What would you start with?

Alison Wood Brooks 47:26 I would just say, I would start with, "I- I'm so curious about what you're doing. What you're doing is so amazing, I'm so intrigued by it. Can I have a fo- five minutes of your time to just pick your brain? What are you struggling with? What do you love about this? What do you hate? Um, who do you love working with? What are you missing in your organization?" Asking these questions with like true sincere curiosity, you're gonna learn so much, you're gonna be, um, you're gonna feel very validated of like, "Oh, I am still relevant. You know why? 'Cause I'm good at asking these questions, I'm good at figuring out what people need."

Mel Robbins 47:57 So if I can extrapolate that, because again, I know that this conversation, I mean, we've got a free class from Professor Alison Wood Brooks from Harvard Business School teaching us how to land the job, network better. You're basically saying, just ask questions and be interested, and that's the opening for networking with somebody.

Alison Wood Brooks 48:20 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 48:20 Because eventually, hopefully the person's gonna come back and be like, "So what did you study in school?" Or, "What kinda thing are you looking for?"

Alison Wood Brooks 48:27 Yeah.They don't even n- m- maybe they don't even need to know that you're looking for a job, right? Just connect with people in an authentic way where you're inter- you're curious and interested in what they're doing and figuring out, "What are they missing? What do they need? Do I know someone that could do that? Am, am I the right person to do that? Could I learn how to do that? Could I develop a new skill that makes me exactly what they're looking for? Probably."

Mel Robbins 48:48 What's a way to follow up with someone? So let's say you meet somebody at a barbecue. You end up asking a ton of questions. They're in a field that you're interested in. Because networking opportunities are everywhere-

Alison Wood Brooks 48:58 Everywhere.

Mel Robbins 48:59 ...if you're willing to ask questions. But now it's time for the follow-up. How do I do that without feeling annoying or like I'm stalking somebody or I'm being, like, pushy?

Alison Wood Brooks 49:08 Totally. I th- or just now I just said take five minutes of their time. I really mean it. You don't need any more than five minutes to make a meaningful connection and to learn a lot about someone. But what's key about even very short interactions to make them feel meaningful is the importance of follow-up. There have been amazing research on this where they... Actually, there's a study of entrepreneurs in, in Africa where they... Part of what they taught them to do is just be more thorough about follow-up.

Mel Robbins 49:34 What does thorough mean?

Alison Wood Brooks 49:35 Like, anytime you have a meaningful conversation, afterwards, like, shoot them a text. Say, "That was really amazing. I feel really inspired. You're so incredible. Thank you. And I'll be in touch later." Just a quick affirmation to the other person of, like, "That was valuable to me. Thank you so much. I'll follow up," that's amazing, right? You're giving them the affirmation they need. They took time out of their life. You're showing them gratitude. You could s- drop a little call back to something you talked about during-

Mel Robbins 50:01 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 50:01 ... the conversation.

Mel Robbins 50:01 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 50:01 "Hey, you mentioned that your daughter, uh, is in the tech industry, right? I... Let me call back to that. I hope your daughter's loving her tech job," right? A quick call back can be so... It shows that you were listening to them, that you're interested, that you have interpersonal skills that you might be valuable

Alison Wood Brooks 50:16 to have in their organization.

Mel Robbins 50:18 How do you answer the question, Professor Brooks, "So tell me about yourself-"

Alison Wood Brooks 50:21 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 50:22 ... in an interview? Seriously.

Alison Wood Brooks 50:23 Oh.

Mel Robbins 50:24 'Cause I'm always like, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

Alison Wood Brooks 50:26 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 50:27 "You mean, like, today? Right now? I don't know. What do you wanna know? My pant size? Like, what I had for breakfast?"

Alison Wood Brooks 50:31 I feel the same way.

Mel Robbins 50:32 So-

Alison Wood Brooks 50:32 I feel the same way.

Mel Robbins 50:33 ... what's a way to answer that that's memorable and just kind of influential, if you know what I mean?

Alison Wood Brooks 50:39 Okay. So first to interviewers, that's not a great question. Stop asking that question. More concrete questions are much more interesting. But if you are gonna stick with these sort of very abstract, open-ended, broad questions like, "Tell me about yourself," which we are all gonna confront, um, I like to make it more concrete in ways like, for example, if someone said, "Tell me about yourself," I'll say, "I'm gonna share two things with you about my professional experience and then two things about my personal life."

Mel Robbins 51:06 Okay, stop. I fricking love that, and we're all stealing that.

Alison Wood Brooks 51:09 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:10 "I'm gonna share two things about my professional life and two things about my personal life."

Alison Wood Brooks 51:15 Yeah. And they're gonna get a much more, uh, thorough view of who you are, and they don't need to be... Uh, you don't need to tell them, you know, that you've had STDs or whatever.

Mel Robbins 51:24 (laughs)

Alison Wood Brooks 51:24 But, like, you can tell them-

Mel Robbins 51:26 Unless you're at an STD clinic-

Alison Wood Brooks 51:28 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 51:28 ... which would make you-

Alison Wood Brooks 51:28 And then you should.

Mel Robbins 51:29 ... very, like, effective-

Alison Wood Brooks 51:31 Relatable.

Mel Robbins 51:31 ... at counseling people.

Alison Wood Brooks 51:32 Very relatable. (laughs) Exactly. But if you y- Again, this is also topic prep. When you- You can anticipate that when you go into a job interview, they're gonna ask you about yourself, about your work experience, what about your life makes you a valuable person here, so topic prep that. What are things that you've experienced professionally that will make you good in this role? What are things that are unique about you personally? When I wrote this book about talk, something that I realized is I'm uniquely positioned to write this because I'm an identical twin.

Mel Robbins 52:02 Oh.

Alison Wood Brooks 52:02 Of course. I'm, like, obsessed with humans. I- I- I'm obsessed with helping other people find this tight-knit shared reality that I have with my twin sister.

Mel Robbins 52:11 Hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 52:11 So I should say that. I need to say that in an interview, on a podcast so that people understand who I am and why that's... Why I'm a valuable person.

Mel Robbins 52:20 Well, let me tell you why we're all gonna steal that answer of, "I'm gonna tell you two things about my professional life and two things that are personal." Number one, the framing immediately made you seem very smart and articulate-

Alison Wood Brooks 52:34 Mm.

Mel Robbins 52:34 ... and prepared.

Alison Wood Brooks 52:35 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:36 And the second thing that I loved about it is that if you're somebody who's nervous, it gives you a framework for you to prepare your answers, and when you say, "I'm gonna do two professional and two personal," you're cuing yourself-

Alison Wood Brooks 52:51 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 52:51 ... that you have these things to share.

Alison Wood Brooks 52:54 Of course.

Mel Robbins 52:54 And so I think that's genius. We better all steal it. And it brings

Mel Robbins 52:59 me to the next thing I wanted to ask you about, which is one of the single biggest obstacles to networking, to doing well on interviews, to negotiating what happens if they do offer you the job, which we'll get to in a minute, is nerves. Like, you get so nervous about screwing it up that the nerves actually hijack your performance. And you have done groundbreaking research, research that I've been citing-

Alison Wood Brooks 53:29 Mm.

Mel Robbins 53:29 ... for over seven years about the physiology of nerves and a research-back hack or reframe or whatever you wanna call it, a tool that you can use in these moments where it's appropriate to feel nervous 'cause you care-

Alison Wood Brooks 53:45 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 53:46 ... but you can't allow it to hijack your performance. It saved my career. It's the thing that I used to overcome stage fright and become the most booked female speaker on the planet. And without this simple reframe, I never would have built the career that I have.

Alison Wood Brooks 54:04 Oh. It means so much to me to hear that, really. I use it too, but to hear it from people... I mean, Mel, that's incredible. Thank you.

Mel Robbins 54:12 No, thank you. So could you explain to the person listening what was the research that you did about the connection between nerves and excitement and how you can use the findings from your research in moments where you're nervous?

Alison Wood Brooks 54:28 Yeah. The... So first of all, if you're feeling anxious...It's so good. It's so good, and it is such a, a clear signal that you care about something. What's better than that about human, human existence? You care about something, and that's precious. So just keep that in mind. Feeling anxious means you care. Um, the recipe for anxiety is uncertainty. You don't know what's gonna happen in the future. You don't know how this job interview's gonna go. You don't know how your work on the job is gonna go. Even in any conversation, I don't know what my partner's gonna say next.

Mel Robbins 55:02 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 55:02 And they could say something tough, they could say something confusing, they could say something very unexpected, and I'm gonna have to respond to that.

Mel Robbins 55:10 Yep.

Alison Wood Brooks 55:11 So uncertainty is the first part of the recipe. The second part is lack of control. Lack of control and uncertainty create these feelings of anxiety, and that's what conversation is. You don't know what's coming next, and you don't have perfect control over what the other person is gonna say and do.

Mel Robbins 55:29 Okay.

Alison Wood Brooks 55:29 So whether it's a job interview or networking or salary negotiation, whatever, of course you're gonna feel anxious. It's hard, and it's- it's uncertain, and you don't have perfect control. So in my research, this was from o- more than a decade ago, um, it was my dissertation research actually, when you're feeling anxious, I really wanted to help people, um, figure out how to cope with it. It's not a problem. It's just a sign that you care about something and that you don't know how it's gonna go. And naturally when people feel anxious, we focus on how- we're focusing on h- all the ways that things could go badly.

Mel Robbins 56:04 Yes.

Alison Wood Brooks 56:04 I start to stutter. I forget to say things. I say something embarrassing. I seem incompetent. I don't get the math problems right. I don't- I- my voice cracks.

Mel Robbins 56:14 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 56:14 Whatever you're freaked out about, you're thinking about how things can go badly.

Mel Robbins 56:18 Correct.

Alison Wood Brooks 56:18 The threats.

Mel Robbins 56:19 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 56:20 So in this research what we found is a very simple reframe. When people feel anxious, their instinct is to try to calm down. All right? So do-

Mel Robbins 56:28 Does that work?

Alison Wood Brooks 56:29 No, of course not. (laughs) Anxiety is a high arousal emotion, which means you have increased cortisol. Your- your palms are sweaty. Your heart is racing. These are all physiological signals of high arousal, right?

Mel Robbins 56:43 Okay.

Alison Wood Brooks 56:43 Trying to make that go away and go down is so hard, impossible. It's trying to control your body's natural reactions.

Mel Robbins 56:51 Okay, so I wanna put the person listening at the scene. So if you're about to walk into the interview of your life-

Alison Wood Brooks 56:56 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 56:56 ... or you're about to walk into your annual review, or you're about to walk in and give the biggest presentation of your school career or your whatever, professional career, as you're pacing in the hallway and your armpits are like waterfalls and your heart is racing and your throat is dry and you feel the thump, thump, thump, thump, thump of your heart because you're about to go do this thing that you care about and you wanna do it well, you're saying, as you're pacing, don't go, "Calm down, calm down. It's gonna be fine."

Alison Wood Brooks 57:26 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 57:26 You're like, "No."

Alison Wood Brooks 57:27 And we do all these crazy things. We do all the- we know, we do rituals and we- we, you know, take a shot or we drink the tea or whatever to try and calm down. It's like this desperate instinct of like, "This- I know this isn't good. I need to calm down." Fruitless attempts to try and reduce those physiological symptoms. Instead, let's try and take advantage of that energy, right? This is- this is ... And high energy because you know this is important and you care about it.

Mel Robbins 57:50 Okay.

Alison Wood Brooks 57:50 So instead of trying to reduce your arousal and move to the positive zone, let's just move to the positive zone. Move from anxiety to excitement and say, "You know what? I'm aroused because I'm excited about this. And instead of thinking about the 100 ways that it could go wrong, I'm gonna focus on how it could go well. We could have such a rewarding conversation. They could uncover the fact that I'm the perfect person for this job. We could have this conversation and they say, 'You know what? You do deserve a great raise. We really value you here. I- we love having you.' Things could go great." And so thinking about those good scenarios makes them more likely to actually happen.

Mel Robbins 58:28 So as you're pacing in the hallway and your heart is racing and your armpits are sweating and your palms are super clammy, how exactly does saying, "I'm excited, I'm excited, I'm excited to give this presentation, I'm excited to ask for this raise, I'm excited to have this interview," how exactly does that work?

Alison Wood Brooks 58:46 Yeah, when you say, "I'm excited," especially out loud to someone else, imagine you said, "Hey, Alison, how are you feeling about this interview?" If I say, "You know what? I'm really excited about it. I think it's an amazing opportunity and I just can't wait to make them fall in love with me." Like ...

Mel Robbins 58:59 Wow.

Alison Wood Brooks 59:00 That changes how you will actually behave once you're in there.

Mel Robbins 59:03 Even though you feel like having stress diarrhea and you wanna run away?

Alison Wood Brooks 59:06 You know what's so funny, Mel?

Mel Robbins 59:07 Tell me.

Alison Wood Brooks 59:08 When I teach, it's- I've done this reframe for so many- for almost 15 years in my mind. My body still has these physiological reactions.

Mel Robbins 59:18 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 59:18 And a lot of people who teach at Harvard have it too. You can't sleep the night before. You have the racing heart. You get the sweaty palms. You get the indigestion. It's just that in your mind, you're flipping from negative to positive. I know all those things are happening in my body because I care about this.

Mel Robbins 59:33 Right.

Alison Wood Brooks 59:33 And it's an uncertain environment. I don't know how my students are gonna react. I don't have perfect control over what they say and do, but what I do have control over is how I think about it.

Mel Robbins 59:42 That's amazing. And didn't you also in the research find that when you tested the reframe of saying, "I'm excited, I'm excited," that people performed better?

Alison Wood Brooks 59:53 Oh, yeah.

Mel Robbins 59:54 Because they didn't derail their preparation? Because if you get yourself so worked up before a speech or an interview or a talk with your boss, all the preparation goes out the window if you stress yourself out too much by going, "I'm gonna blow it. Oh my God, oh my God, I've got butterflies."

Alison Wood Brooks 1:00:08 You're wasting that very valuable prep time on trying to calm down instead of using that prep time to think about the other person (laughs) and say, "What is good? What does success look like here? What are we aiming for? What are my goals? What are their goals? How can I make this go well?" That's how you should be using that preparation time.

Mel Robbins 1:00:26 Well, you know what's also cool, is that typically in those situations when we're nervous and we get the butterflies and we start to feel anxious and then you start to think about all the things that could go wrong, you think something's wrong. You're actually saying, "No, no, no, no, this is a mentally healthy response."... to being in a situation when you care about the outcome.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:00:45 It's mentally healthy, and it's so common. Like, we all feel that way. We're human be- that's wha- that's how our bodies were built to react to any situation where there's uncertainty and a lack of control.

Mel Robbins 1:00:56 Um, are there any rules of thumb, Professor Brooks, where you've gone through the, the process of networking and getting an interview, and now you've got the final interview? Is there anything that you should say at the end of the final interview that actually helps you land the job?

Alison Wood Brooks 1:01:18 Mm.

Mel Robbins 1:01:18 Like, should you ask for it? Should you, like now what is the re- d- is there anything in the research around negotiation on this?

Alison Wood Brooks 1:01:24 Uh, there is great power in expressing gratitude to people. So if you've gone through a process where you've networked, and you've met lots of people, and you've had all these conversational interviews, and you've, you've clearly taken a lot of people's time, right? Any conversation is co-constructed, it's co-created. It means that other people are devoting their time and attention to you, including a job interview. These are people that have jobs to do, and they're spending some of their time-

Mel Robbins 1:01:49 Mm-hmm.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:01:49 ... getting to know you and evaluating you. And even though that feels daunting from your perspective, it's also, uh, quite generous from them. And so saying, "Thank you so much. No matter what happens, I've really loved getting to know you and learning from you," that's a very appropriate thing, very kind thing to say to them that will land very well.

Mel Robbins 1:02:09 So Professor Brooks, if you take into account, like, the decade (laughs) of research that you've done on the science of conversation, teaching two of the most popular courses at Harvard Business School, what do you think is the most important lesson, or piece of research, or behavior change that the person listening should take away of everything that you shared today that would have the biggest impact on their confidence and their ability to communicate and be influential?

Alison Wood Brooks 1:02:44 Don't aim for perfection. Don't aim to be trying to prove how great you are to other people. Aim for connection. Think about what other people need, and then deliver it to them to the best of your ability.

Mel Robbins 1:02:59 You know, I've, uh, maybe it's all the training as a lawyer, but I've always thought about negotiation as making a case.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:05 I know.

Mel Robbins 1:03:06 And winning.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:08 And-

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:08 It's about winning.

Mel Robbins 1:03:09 You just flipped it all on its head.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:10 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:11 It's actually about prioritizing the other person and figuring out what they want-

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:18 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:03:18 ... and then reframing what you need (laughs) and want from their point of view.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:24 If- the more people that you can give what they need, the more people there are in the world who are poised, and ready, and excited to give you what you need back.

Mel Robbins 1:03:33 Wow. It's so counterintuitive. No wonder you have to go to Harvard to learn this.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:38 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:03:39 I guess not though, because you just shared it for free here on the Mel Robbins Podcast.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:43 (laughs)

Mel Robbins 1:03:43 Professor Alison Wood Brooks, the book is Talk: The Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. Congratulations on it being a bestseller. What are your parting words?

Alison Wood Brooks 1:03:55 My parting words, uh, in the course that I teach called Talk, we use a metaphor. If you think of every relationship in your life as a sort of string that starts at hello and goes all the way until the end of your relationship, or even the end of your life, we like to think of every conversation along-

Mel Robbins 1:04:12 Hm.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:04:12 ... that string as like a, a light bulb, like a cafe light, those beautiful strings of lights.

Mel Robbins 1:04:17 Oh.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:04:17 The goal is to make each one of those conversations glow just a little bit brighter. And imagine how much we could light up the world one conversation at a time.

Mel Robbins 1:04:27 I love that. And the reason why I love that is because I think, particularly if you're taking this advice and you're trying to apply it to creating more meaningful career, feeling like you're more influential, feeling like your contributions get recognized, whether it's at home, or at school, or in the workplace, or in your business, you can get very discouraged if you get to one light bulb that doesn't light up.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:04:55 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:04:56 And I love that image, because if you're at a moment where you feel like you've gotten a lot of nos or closed doors, those actually are light bulbs on the string-

Alison Wood Brooks 1:05:07 Yeah.

Mel Robbins 1:05:08 ... and your job is to just keep going to the next one and trust that eventually you're gonna get to the one that shines super bright.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:05:16 And some of them will brown out. Some of them will explode. Some of them will never light up at all.

Mel Robbins 1:05:22 Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:05:22 But just know that in the future, there are more light bulbs to come. And just keep aiming, just keep trying. Try, try, try to get them to glow a little bit brighter.

Mel Robbins 1:05:30 Wow. I, I mean, that's a big light bulb moment for me. Professor Alison Wood Brooks, thank you, thank you, thank you.

Alison Wood Brooks 1:05:37 Thank you, thank you, thank you, Mel.

Mel Robbins 1:05:39 And thank you for being here, for investing in yourself, for sharing this. I know you're gonna share this with a ton of people. And I also know that everything that you learned today from all this research at Harvard Business School is going to help you be more influential. It's gonna help you nail the interviews and do the networking, because you do deserve to have a career that makes you proud of yourself. And now you got some of the tools that are gonna help you go create it. And in case no one else tells you, I wanted to be sure to tell you that I love you and I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to create a better life. Now, take everything that Alison Wood Brooks taught you today, and go make it happen. I'll be waiting for you in the very next episode as soon as you hit play. I'll see you there. And for you, thank you for being here with me on YouTube, and thank you for watching all the way to the end. Wasn't it so cool to get all of these strategies and insight from a professor at Harvard Business School? I love this kind of stuff, and I know you love it too. So thank you for watching. Thank you for being here 'til the end. Thank you for sharing this with people in your life who you know deserve this information too. And one more thing, it is a goal of mine that 50% of the people that watch this channel are subscribers, and it's free. So I know you're the kind of person that loves supporting people that support you. I know you love getting all these incredible videos with world-renowned experts. And so one thing you could do for me, just hit subscribe. It tells me that you really love what we're doing here, and it helps support my team in bringing you new videos every single day as a free resource for you and the people that you care about. Alrighty, I know what you're thinking, "Mel, I love this. What's the next video I should watch?" Great question. I think you should check out this one. I think you're gonna love it. And I'm gonna be waiting for you in it the second you hit play. I'll see you there.