The Mel Robbins PodcastWhy Do I Love the Way That I Love: The 4 Attachment Styles Explained
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 29,877 words- 0:00 – 6:22
Intro
- MRMel Robbins
(ticking clock) (upbeat music) I walked into this conversation thinking that my attachment style was one thing, and it turns out, it's something completely different. You can change your attachment style. You can become more secure. In addition, this episode has a bonus, and it's gonna help you transform not only your attachment style, but also your subconscious mind. Hey, it's your friend Mel, and I just wanna start out by saying thank you, thank you, thank you for being here with me. I know that when you are here with me and you're listening to this podcast, you do it as a way to invest in yourself, and I think that's super cool. And that is why I am really excited for the conversation that you're about to hear, because this one is a really, really good one. What are we talking about? We're talking about something called attachment theory, and the reason why I wanted you to learn about attachment theory is because this framework has helped me profoundly in my marriage. It's helped me in my relationship with my kids. Frankly, it's helped me in every relationship that I have, because understanding my attachment style has allowed me to really show up in a different way, in a more powerful and secure way, and I think it's gonna help you too. Now, if you've never heard about attachment style, there are four different attachment styles. You're gonna learn in detail about all four attachment styles. And I love the expert that I have for you today. Her name is Thais Gibson. She has a brand new book out called Learning Love, and one of the reasons why I like the way that she explains attachment theory is she gets into the nitty-gritty. You're not only gonna understand the four different attachment styles. She will explain things like, okay, if you text someone and they don't text back for three hours, this is how you will act based on your attachment style. She's also gonna give you scripts. She's gonna give you strategies and she's going to teach you that you can change your attachment style. You can become more secure. Now, when I told our team that Thais Gibson was coming into our new studios in Boston, Shay Washington, who is our senior manager of the video team, fell out of her chair, because Thais' work has changed Shay's life. Check this out.
- NANarrator
Around this time last year, I was going through, like, a huge, huge healing journey and I realized that I was, like, so emotionally stunted. So therapy didn't work. You know, antidepressants didn't work. And so I stumbled upon, you know, Thais Gibson and The Personal Development School, but one thing that really stood out to me was when Thais Gibson specifically spoke about your core wounds. They still sort of manifest in my current life, like my current day, and I just don't know how to navigate through any of those things. And I just never heard it broken down in that way that she broke it down before. And things started coming together really smoothly. I had a much bigger understanding and it changed my life for the better, and I hope to one day become securely attached.
- MRMel Robbins
Shay, I love you, and thank you for sharing that. And I had a very similar reaction to Thais Gibson's work, and I know you are too, because you're gonna leave this conversation having a much better understanding of yourself, core wounds, attachment theory. There is no doubt in my mind that that's gonna happen, and in fact, it happened for me. I walked into this conversation thinking that my attachment style was one thing, and it turns out, it's something completely different, and it was Thais that pointed it out to me. And I think you're gonna have that revelation too. And there's one more thing that I'm really excited to share with you before we jump into the conversation. In addition to all of the amazing tactical information that you're about to learn that is gonna help you improve your life, this episode has a bonus. It is followed by a very short bonus episode because Thais recorded a meditation for you. That's right, for you. And it's a meditation that you can listen to that will put everything that you're about to learn into action, and it's gonna help you transform not only your attachment style, but also your subconscious mind. And it is there for you right in this podcast queue for free. The episode is entitled Daily Meditation: Listen For 21 Days to Reprogram Your Subconscious Mind. And you're gonna wanna listen to it right after this episode. All right. Are you ready to learn why you love the way that you do? Me too. Thais Gibson, welcome to the Mel Robbins Podcast.
- TGThais Gibson
Thank you. Excited to be here with you.
- MRMel Robbins
So Thais, you have this incredible new book called Learning Love: Build the Best Relationships of Your Life Using Integrated Attachment Theory, and one of the things that I love about your work is how empowering it is. You teach how every single one of us can break free from patterns that are holding us back using the science of attachment theory. So I wanna start with the basics. What is an attachment style?
- TGThais Gibson
The subconscious set of rules you have for love and connection, and those rules can be in the form of the different beliefs you have, the different needs you have, what you expect in relationships, and how you communicate and set boundaries with others. You're not born with an attachment style. It happens through conditioning and the way that that neuroplastically affects your subconscious mind, and we can recondition our attachment style patterns if we grew up in an unhealthy environment, we didn't get good learnings about attachment styles and about relationships. We can actually heal that...... change that to become secure and have really successful, thriving relationships, whether that's romantic, family, or friendships.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, this is, uh, an episode that we're gonna release at a time of year where almost everybody is thinking about goals for next year, and resolutions, and all the changes that you wanna make. And how does
- 6:22 – 7:51
How your attachment style impacts your personal goal-setting
- MRMel Robbins
going to work on your attachment style and your beliefs about love and relationships, how the heck does that help you with goals or with making positive change?
- TGThais Gibson
Because exactly the, the biggest limiting beliefs that we pick up from childhood about who we are and what relationships look like also form primarily the relationship we have to ourselves, which will color everything else in our world.
- MRMel Robbins
Whoa. When does this start in childhood exactly? Like, what age are you talking about?
- TGThais Gibson
It gets conditioned into us, actually between the ages of zero to two years old. But because-
- MRMel Robbins
That early?
- TGThais Gibson
That early, yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Zero to two?
- TGThais Gibson
Zero to two.
- MRMel Robbins
So the stuff that goes down before you even remember-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... zero to two is what's stored in your subconscious?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And is what drives you as an adult-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... unless you do the work to change it?
- TGThais Gibson
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Are you kidding me?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. So like, as an example, if somebody grows up in a household where they have a really critical parent, and maybe that parent has the best intentions, they wanna prepare their child for the world, it's really easy for a child, because a child personalizes everything, right? They can't say, "Oh, my parent is communicating in a suboptimal way." So instead what happens is the child goes, "Oh, this is about me. I must not be good enough," or, "I must not be worthy," or, "I must be bad." And so what happens is the meaning we give to things when we perceive our environment and our experiences programs our subconscious mind through repetition plus emotion. So anything we're repeatedly exposed to that creates an emotional response basically fires and wires neural pathways. And so then what will happen
- 7:51 – 10:19
What you do that creates pathways in your brain
- TGThais Gibson
is we form these deep beliefs about who we are in relationships, but unfortunately, these same beliefs associated with our different attachment styles will also be what we believe about ourselves in the workplace, in our friendships, in terms of how we operate financially. It can really spread into multiple areas of life, and a lot of the roots of these things actually exist from, like, how we attach and what we experience in our environment as young children.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow, I love that you just put this thing that every one of us struggles with. Every single day, I wake up, and I'm like, "Okay, today, I'm not gonna be bitchy to anybody."
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs) Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
"Today, I am not gonna, uh, I'm gonna exercise. Tonight, I'm not gonna pour myself a glass of wine." I have all of these conscious intentions, but then things happen throughout the day. And I find myself dropping into the same behavior, and it is incredibly frustrating. And so, if I'm tracking with what you're saying, your theory and what you do out in the world, you now have 31,000 people that you are working with through your company on the stuff that you're about to teach us. You're saying that we can identify those rules and behaviors that run in the background, that drive our entire life, and we can change them?
- TGThais Gibson
100%.
- MRMel Robbins
That is amazing because we've talked about attachment style and attachment theory on this podcast before. And I find that a lot of the material on attachment theory is very interesting and empowering when you understand what your attachment style is. But I've always felt, when I learn about my attachment style, it's sort of like, "Okay, that's your attachment style," but I've never felt like there's a way to change it.
- TGThais Gibson
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
And you can change it?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes, so we actually created a whole body of work called Integrated Attachment Theory. And the whole purpose of it is not to just discover your attachment style and really see who you are and what your patterns are, but then to be able to use that. Because just knowing something doesn't give you a whole lot of context until you're able to say, "Okay, here's what I don't like about this, and here's how-"
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TGThais Gibson
"... I can recondition what's not working for me." And if you're not born with something, like an attachment style, if it gets conditioned into you over time, we're just reconditioning to move into a space that works better for us. And so it's quite simple to do. There's a lot of different tools I'm sure we'll get into and talk about, but that is the whole purpose of this, this work.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow, okay. So
- 10:19 – 16:35
What “attachment style” means and the 4 types
- MRMel Robbins
let's just start with the basics. How many attachment styles are they, and what are they?
- TGThais Gibson
Okay, so there's four major attachment styles. We'll talk a little bit about how they come about as well. So, the first one is the securely attached child growing into the securely attached adult. And the secure attachment, um, individuals in their childhood, they get a lot of approach-oriented behavior. So if they-
- MRMel Robbins
Wait, approach-oriented?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
What is, what does that mean?
- TGThais Gibson
I'll explain this, yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TGThais Gibson
So, so essentially, if they cry as a child, their parents will come towards them, try to figure out what's going on and what's wrong and try to meet their needs. And so the repetition and emotion, the conditioning or programming to the subconscious at this age is, "Okay, if I express my emotions, I get my needs met. It's safe to express my needs. It's safe to rely on other people. And I get loved when I'm in hard times, so I'm worthy of connection, and I'm worthy of love just for who I am, not for what I do." And so this person as an adult grows up to have much easier experiences around relationships, of course, and they trust, and they rely, and they communicate, and they feel safe expressing their emotions and feeling their emotions. And so statistically, they have the biggest success rate in relationships, by far and away. Then we have three insecure attachment styles. On one end of the continuum, we have an anxious-preoccupied attachment style, and this individual essentially grows up with a lot of warmth and a lot of care from their caregivers, but a lot of inconsistency. So a really common example would be that mom and dad are very loving, they are approach-oriented, they do care, but they both have really long jobs, they're gone for 12 hours a day, and the child's often at daycare or with the grandparents who might be more cold and withdrawn. And so what happens is the repetition and emotion, so the programming becomes...... "Okay, I really want love, and I really feel good when my caregivers are here, but it keeps getting taken away."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TGThais Gibson
And so this child learns to really fear abandonment, and fear of being a- left alone or excluded. And so they grow up really having a lot of a- a- abandonment wounds, and they're very sensitive to rejection, exclusion. And they become very panicked if they see partners in their relationships start to pull away. And so they really struggle, unfortunately, 'cause they want love, they want connection so much, but because of this deeply conditioned fear of abandonment, it's almost like they hold on so tight that the sand's sort of constantly slipping through their fingers. It accidentally pushes people away.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- TGThais Gibson
And so that's our anxious preoccupied. And they tend to struggle, um, in relationships big time, especially when it comes to getting people to kind of commit and stick around. On the basically opposite end of the continuum, there's a dismissive avoidant attachment style. This individual grows up with childhood emotional neglect. And sometimes it's really overt, like food's not on the table, nothing's organized. Sometimes it's very covert, where instead it's like, you know, Mom and Dad are there, but if you cry or express emotion, they're like, "Toughen up." They don't check in. If the child comes home from school, they're never going, "Oh, are you okay? I see that you're off."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TGThais Gibson
So this, this neglect happens, and this child grows up in this environment, and they can't understand that my parents are emotionally unavailable. So instead, they go, "There must be something wrong with me that I'm not getting my needs met." And so they build this deep wound of, "I am defective," and they feel shame. And then they grow up and they don't want to be that vulnerable again to anybody and rely on anybody, so they become hyper-independent. And in relationships as a result, as soon as things get real or as soon as people get too close, they sabotage, they push away, and they tend to fear commitment. And of course, the anxious and dismissives often end up in relationships together.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Are you talking about my marriage? I just-
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... feel like you just summarized three years of marriage therapy with Chris Robbins and Mel Robbins. But, and then what's the, what's the other third-
- TGThais Gibson
The, yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... insecure attachment style?
- TGThais Gibson
So the last one is fearful avoidant, sometimes referred to as disorganized attachment. And essentially-
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- TGThais Gibson
... they grow up in an environment where there's chronic chaos. So, a really easy example or analogy would be if there was a parent who was an alcoholic. So let's say it's Mom as an example. One day, the child comes home from school and Mom is drinking, and she's in a really good mood and she's really laughing. Another day, you know, Mom comes home or child comes home, and she's, she's drinking a lot but now she's angry. She's an angry drunk. Another day, she's sobering up. She's in a good mood, she feels guilty. Another day, she's sobering up. She's going through withdrawal, she's in chaos, right? So, it's like you never know what you're gonna get. It can be a bad divorce, parents fighting all the time, having a parent with narcissistic personality disorder, all these sorts of things where there's chaos and fighting, and you never know what you're gonna get. So this child grows up having some positive experiences with love, but some terrifying experiences with love, and so they feel conflicted. This is what I was. And so, you know, what the person will experience is this feeling of like, "I want closeness," and then people get close and they're like, "Get back." (laughs) And so they'll really be in this push-pull pattern, but more than anything they struggle to trust. They feel like they can't rely on people. They can't really connect. They don't want to open up too much, similar to the dismissive avoidant, but they also have the anxious side. And so they become, as adults, the hot and cold partner in, in relationships who's constantly-
- MRMel Robbins
Hm.
- TGThais Gibson
... going back and forth. But again, these patterns get conditioned into us, so the things we don't like or don't serve us, we can absolutely recondition to become secure and have thriving relationships.
- MRMel Robbins
You know what I love about listening to you is that I find it personally reassuring that anyone can become more secure. And before we discuss the specifics of each of the four attachment styles and how we can use this entire framework to heal yourself and create better relationships, I really wanna back up for just a second. I keep hearing you use the word subconscious, and it's a word that can be confusing to a lot of us. It's confusing to me, for example. So, can you tell me and everyone listening, what exactly is your subconscious mind?
- TGThais Gibson
So, your conscious mind, if you were looked at, if you were looking at your, your mind from sort of the top down as an analogy, you have your conscious mind which is like the tip of the iceberg, floating above the surface. Your subconscious mind is what is just out of your conscious mind's awareness. And i- you can imagine it's sort of the part of the iceberg that's just beneath the water level. We actually then have the unconscious mind, which is like the very bottom of the iceberg. But our unconscious mind, it's very difficult to retrieve information from. So I put a lot of focus on the subconscious mind, because your subconscious mind, you can actually ... i- i- it's this warehouse of information, but you can actually dig into it and be like, "Oh, how did I feel 15 minutes ago when that happened?" And
- 16:35 – 23:04
How your subconscious mind drives a lot of what you do
- TGThais Gibson
you can retrieve information even though it's out of your peripheral awareness. So in summary, your subconscious mind is essentially the part of your mind that stores all information, um, and it's just out of your conscious mind's awareness, but it is retrievable.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TGThais Gibson
So, I think that one of the most important things to recognize is that we have a subconscious mind that's really running the show. And our subconscious mind gets all these patterns and ideas about what love looks like, and then we take those with us, and that forms the lens we basically see and interact with the world through. So if we grow up in an environment where we learn that we don't communicate about things, or we learn, okay, we should just expect people to know what we need, or we learn to violate our own boundaries and people please, if we learn these patterns at a subconscious level, your attachment style is the subconscious set of rules you have for what love and closeness and relationships are supposed to look like. And for some people, that works in their favor. And for some people, unfortunately, if they didn't learn healthy patterns, it's really working against them, and it can make relationships feel very difficult, very hard, and very confusing.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow. There was so much I want to dig into in what you just said, and one of the things that caught my attention is when you said that the rules and the beliefs that we have about what love is and how relationship work, that that is all stored in your subconscious?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And why is it important to know that?
- TGThais Gibson
Because our subconscious mind, first of all, is responsible for roughly 95% to 97% of our beliefs, our thoughts, our emotions, and our actions, and our conscious mind is 3% to 5%. And so the other thing we have to understand is that our conscious mind cannot out will or overpower our subconscious mind, which means we can have the experience of going, "I- I don't wanna get angry at my partner. I don't wanna raise my voice," or, "I want to stop drinking," or, "I want..." We can have all these goals, or New Year's resolutions, or ideas for how we wanna change our behaviors, but unfortunately, it just being a conscious goal, until it's actually ingrained at the subconscious level, we are going to experience this friction between what we say we wanna do and what we actually do. And this has a huge impact on our relationships, where if we say, "I wanna show up better," or, "I wanna have a relationship that lasts," but if we have subconscious patterns working against us, we will constantly f- feel like we're putting the gas and the brakes on at the same time, and that can be a very frustrating process.
- MRMel Robbins
A- are you saying that it's possible, though, to change-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... what's in your subconscious mind?
- TGThais Gibson
Absolutely, of course.
- MRMel Robbins
How did you figure all this out?
- TGThais Gibson
Um, I figured this out because I was a very... (laughs) I had a lot of work to do on myself. I, I had a tough, uh, upbringing, and I was, like, kind of a mess, um, and to be honest, the actual root was that I was addicted to opiates at 15. So I went through, from 15 to about 20 years old, it was actually, I think it was just before I turned 15, um, I had a knee surgery, got addicted to painkillers, and actually my biggest experience was every day being like, "I'm gonna get clean. I'm gonna delete people's numbers from my phone," and every day repeating the same pattern. And for me, going through that over and over again, I was, like, high functioning enough, I'd made it to school. I was in a psychology class one day and somebody said to me, "The conscious mind can't out will or overpower the subconscious mind," and I was like, "You described all of my suffering that I experience every day." Because, uh, going through that and being like, "I'm gonna do this," and then every day losing that battle to myself, it was, like, tormenting. And so when somebody said that to me, I was like, "I'm gonna learn everything I can on God's green Earth about the subconscious mind," and then it really opened up to all these different how, you know, what is the subconscious? How does it affect us? Oh, it's our core wounds. It's our unmet needs. It's our beliefs about ourself that really extend from those core wounds, and, and our patterns in terms of boundaries. So I actually started there, did all that work, actually went into practice, and then revisited attachment theory-
- MRMel Robbins
And by practice, you mean therapeutic-
- TGThais Gibson
Working with people.
- MRMel Robbins
... practice?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Working with-
- TGThais Gibson
It's counseling, yeah. Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah, counseling. Okay.
- TGThais Gibson
And so then, I was doing a lot of subconscious work with people, and then I realized, oh, all of the attachment styles actually have very specific core wounds. All these generalized core wounds I was working on with people, there was about 18 or so, they actually fit in th- these perfect little packages to-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... each attachment style, as well as the needs fit perfectly into these little packages, as well as the boundary issues, and the commu- So what I ended up doing is, okay, once I know somebody's attachment style, I don't have to find all these core wounds all over the place. I just know their kind of blueprint, and then I had done so much work on the subconscious for how to heal, and so that's sort of how everything became born.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, that makes a lot of sense, because when you're working with someone who is a client of yours, you're dealing with the pain, and by figuring out all of the pain that someone is talking about, whether it's, "I'm unworthy of love," or, "I'm ashamed of what I did," or, "I regret this," or, "I don't trust somebody," whatever it is that the pain may be, you're only ever talking about the pain level, so you're not going deep enough to change fundamentally. And so, realizing that you weren't going deep enough, you dug in, and it's when you discovered attachment theory, and the fact that when you locate yourself in one of the four different attachment styles, you now have this simple framework to be able to heal the insecure attachment style that you may have or may be dealing with, and become more secure with yourself, and more secure in relationship with other people. I'm getting this. Thank you for kind of sharing the background on this, because when we come back, I wanna dive into exactly how to figure out your attachment style. So, don't go anywhere. Thais Gibson and I are gonna be waiting for you right after the break. Welcome back. It's your friend, Mel Robbins, and you are here with me and Thais Gibson, and we are digging into attachment styles. And Thais, I have a question for you. How exactly can you figure out your attachment style now that you're an adult?
- TGThais Gibson
Great question. So part of it is definitely understanding some of the childhood context, but then it really goes into the biggest body of work that we developed on top of traditional attachment theory was about our core wounds. So each attachment style has very specific core wounds. They also have very specific needs-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... and they have very specific issues with boundaries and how they communicate.
- MRMel Robbins
Ooh.
- TGThais Gibson
So we can kind of unpack those things.
- MRMel Robbins
Let's do it.
- 23:04 – 25:42
How to have secure and healthy relationships (including the relationship with yourself)
- TGThais Gibson
securely attached people, I mean, they tend to communicate healthily. They don't really have many core wounds that are specific to relationships. They can have insecurities 'cause they're human beings, but we won't see too much of that as a whole. They tend to have healthy boundaries. They wanna resolve things right away.
- MRMel Robbins
Is anybody securely attached? I was laughing as I was kind of preparing to talk to you, because as I was looking at the definition of secure attachment, I thought, "Oh, is this sort of like you thinking you're a good driver?"
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
90% of us think we're great drivers, but we're really not great drivers. Do most people think they're securely attached?
- TGThais Gibson
It's actually very interesting. So s- traditional research will show about 50% of people are securely attached.
- MRMel Robbins
That many?
- TGThais Gibson
51% is the actual number, yes. I-
- MRMel Robbins
How is that possible?
- TGThais Gibson
I completely disagree. In, in my practice, what I saw over and over again is people would come in, they, first session, I would take them through some of the stuff, and they'd be like, "Oh, I'm the secure one." And then by session two, I was like, "There's no way that they're secure," you know? They, they-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TGThais Gibson
And, and I think that people...... um, we sel- when we self-report, things are skewed, right? And- and those numbers, that 51% is based on self-reporting. Obviously, I have a biased sample size of people 'cause they're people who are going through struggles and- and are reaching out for help and support. But I just found so many times that, like, more than half the time, people would say I'm secure and I'm definitely not secure.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm kinda making a joke about it, but as a parent, right? And, uh, having three kids, 24, 23, and 18, as I'm listening to you describe the four different, uh, attachment styles, I was listening both as a parent thinking, "Oh, shit."
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
You know, like, "I really, uh, probably created the anxious preoccupied attachment style-"
- TGThais Gibson
Interesting.
- MRMel Robbins
"... um, by working a lot." The second you said daycare, I thought, "Oh, gosh. That- that explains it. My- our two daughters were in daycare. There- there you go. You really blew it." And then of course, I'm listening for myself, and what was interesting is that I always presumed that I was probably anxious preoccupied.
- TGThais Gibson
Interesting.
- MRMel Robbins
But as we have this conversation, and I-
- TGThais Gibson
Fearful avoidant.
- MRMel Robbins
... am listening in real time, I'm wondering if I'm going to see that I'm more in the fearful-
- TGThais Gibson
Fearful avoidant. Probably.
- MRMel Robbins
I can't even say it, I'm so nervous.
- TGThais Gibson
Fearful avoidant. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
Fearful avoidant. When you said, "A chaotic environment, including narcissistic behavior-"
- TGThais Gibson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
"... I was like, 'Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.'"
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And when I go, "Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding," you know it means I'm leaning in, and I know that you, as you're listening, are leaning in too. And so, let's go even deeper into this
- 25:42 – 29:54
The difference between “core wounds” and “core needs”
- MRMel Robbins
concept of core wounds. What are the core wounds of the three insecure attachment styles?
- TGThais Gibson
When we get into the insecure attachment styles, this is where we can really see the nuances that haven't been developed before. So, anxious attachment styles, their biggest core wounds are, "I will be abandoned. I will be alone. I will be excluded, disliked, rejected, not good enough, and unsafe." And what we'll see is they tend to feel this big trigger of unsafety when people pull away because in childhood, we're very reliant on our caregivers. We can't- literally cannot survive without them. And so what happens is as children, the anxious attachment style, when their caregivers pull away, they actually have this- a trauma response, like, "Will I survive without them, you know, as they're- as they're gone?" And so we really easily confuse and intertwine survival with approval, um, as anxious attachment styles. And that becomes really prevalent in childhood. And as adults, the anxious attachment style, they'll have a full, like, nervous system reaction when somebody pulls away. That abandonment will really trigger also this deep feeling of being unsafe.
- MRMel Robbins
I'm just sitting here selfishly, processing and thinking about my family (laughs) and my relationships-
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
... as I'm sure, as you're listening, you're doing the exact same thing. There's no doubt in my mind that our daughter, Kendall, has anxious attachment style because I often say, "I feel like your human blankie."
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
And if she has a situation that is, uh, anything that would make her nervous or anything that would make her slightly uncertain-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... there's a phone call.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And you know that the attachment style has kicked in because then there's a second one, and then there might be a third one.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And is that sort of a classic indication that you feel this sense when you can't get ahold of somebody, this alarm bell goes off inside you, and you're firing off the texts, or you're calling them again, or you're checking their location? Is that a good example of the type of behavior-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... that somebody with anxious attachment?
- TGThais Gibson
Absolutely. And so what you'll see is that these core wounds, if you sort of were to trail them across, you'd see that core wounds, when we feel like, "I'm abandoned," we start thinking thoughts about, "They're never gonna come back," or, "What if I can't get my needs met?" And then this sparks emotions, and then we'll feel those emotions. And neuroscience has actually proven that every single decision we make is based on our emotions. So then these actions happen at a subconscious level where the anxious preoccupied will cling. And part of what's happening is they're terrified of losing proximity to people, and they also, as children, didn't ever learn to self-soothe-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... consistently enough, so they really rely on other people to soothe. And when they can't soothe through other people, it will create problems, um, in- in terms of their ability to regulate. And so some other things you'll see beyond core wounds is the needs anxious preoccupies tend to have, is they need a lot of validation, reassurance, consistency. Certainty is a huge one, especially in the romantic relationships. And- and one of their big love languages is around physical touch. They wanna be close. They wanna be-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... nearby. You'll see a lot of those sorts of patterns. Anxious preoccupied attachment styles are the sweetest. They are so kind. They're so thoughtful. They really think about people. They really spend a lot of time focused on the people around them. And so, some of the superpowers of the anxious attachment style is that they're very loving. They're very warm. They're very kind. They're thoughtful. They're supportive. They really go out of their way to think about the people in their lives. So they have all these beautiful characteristics they bring to relationships, but because their subconscious comfort zone is to be so focused on other people, the primary casualty in that- that relationship becomes the relationship to themselves.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
And so they will constantly deprioritize themselves, put their needs last, not speak up for their needs 'cause they get into people-pleasing behaviors. And actually, all of those things that they're doing are the crux of why it's so difficult to self-soothe because if you don't know your needs, you can't meet your own needs, and you have all these core wounds, it becomes so difficult to self-soothe. And they'll constantly try to maintain that closeness and soothe through others, but when other people are not available, that's where it becomes really tricky.
- MRMel Robbins
When it comes to trying to change your behavior or trying to achieve something or trying to achieve a goal, how does having, uh,
- 29:54 – 41:17
How to feel less anxious and overwhelmed in relationships
- MRMel Robbins
this anxious attachment style and the core wound of abandonment show up-... in terms of sabotaging your ability to either be consistent or to do the work to change yourself.
- TGThais Gibson
In, in so many ways. So, so one of the biggest things is, like, let's say it's something in your workplace.
- MRMel Robbins
Yeah.
- TGThais Gibson
Anxious attachment styles in the workplace, they'll often put themselves last. They'll put themselves on the back burner. They'll take on other people's work and not set healthy boundaries. And all of a sudden, they're behind on their things 'cause they're people pleasing others.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
And also, if they have this huge fear of abandonment, what happens is we abandon ourselves, right? Whatever our core wounds are also become the biggest things we reenact in the relationship to self because the subconscious mind wants to maintain its comfort zone. So, if you see somebody with an abandonment core wound, they're so worried about getting abandoned by others that they will abandon themselves to please others. And that's actually how the wound stays alive. Like, if we ask ourselves, "Hey, those wounds came from childhood 30 years ago. How are they still alive in me now? Oh, because I am reenacting them in relationship to self through repetition and emotion on a daily basis, and if I wasn't doing that, they actually wouldn't still be here, it's not possible." So, so that's how the subconscious keeps these things. And so what the anxious preoccupied has to do is learn to meet their own needs, reprogram their subconscious core wounds, and then be able to actually consider themselves equally to others. Like, take their own boundaries into consideration as, as much as they do with others. And those things become a huge part of the healing process. And we can talk about subconscious reprogramming in a little bit perhaps, but, but those tend to be some really important things to recognize in terms of the patterning. And then the very last thing I'll say is just anxious attachment styles as well, if they have a goal-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TGThais Gibson
... and then it's not even in the workplace, it's a personal goal-
- MRMel Robbins
Yes.
- TGThais Gibson
... and then their friends say, "But I need you," or then they, you know, wanna make social plans or commitments, they'll be so preoccupied with that, that they struggle to actually balance the other areas of their life. They'll be so focused on relationships, career can be on the back burner, finances, mental growth, emotional growth, spiritual health, all those things can kinda take less precedence, which of course they'll feel later over time 'cause they're always deprioritizing the self.
- MRMel Robbins
That makes so much sense.
- TGThais Gibson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
If you look at the anxious attachment style from a standpoint of needs, what are their core needs?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. The biggest needs that they have, and interestingly enough, these have to be the needs that they give to themselves.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TGThais Gibson
This is part of how they heal through repetition and emotion of giving these needs. So the big needs are, um, reassurance, validation, encouragement, support, to be seen, to be heard are really, really big. People who, um, being present with them, and then really that certainty and consistency. Like, those are the big ones. And I think once we discover that, the, the real, like, discussion has to become, "Well, if for any number of reasons I didn't get access to that as a child, part of healing is to repetitively give that to myself now because I'm leveraging principles of neuroplasticity." Same thing, repetition and emotion, that fire and wire neural pathways. And if I'm leveraging those principles, then by giving those things to myself-
- MRMel Robbins
Yep.
- TGThais Gibson
... not only do I learn to self-soothe, but also, because if I have those needs met, the bucket's halfway full, right? So I'm not panicked without somebody else meeting them. I'm actually soothing myself. I'm able to get there. And then it also heals and undoes the past because we're changing the programming at, at the subconscious level.
- MRMel Robbins
I wanna ask you one scenario.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
So let's go back to the example of somebody who's anxiously attached.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And they say to themselves, "All right, I'm not gonna bother my significant other at work today." And then they find themselves getting that wave of emotion and wanting to send 15 texts.
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
What do you do in that moment if the solution to reprogramming your subconscious is to give yourself what you need? What would you do as you're standing there with the phone?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. Amazing question. So, there's ways to pro- to reprogram that are proactive so that we can actually recondition those wounds to begin with, so they stop coming back.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
That's the real crux of everything. But in the moment, until we've done the reprogramming, which takes about 21 days, what we wanna be able to do is make sure that we are in a position where whatever it is that we are needing from that person, we wanna isolate. So, if you're needing from your significant other, like why, what, what are you reaching out for? What are you hoping to get as the result? Are you needing encouragement? Are you needing certainty? And if you can look at that and realize, "Hey, I, as a human being, have the capacity to give that to myself," you can literally think of, "If I could paint a picture of what that encouragement would look like from my spouse or from my friend or whoever it is, how can I give that to myself inwardly?"
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
And what's really interesting is the subconscious mind really wants a comfort zone. So it, it doesn't like unfamiliarity, because ultimately the subconscious is survival wired, which means anything unfamiliar, it tends to reject. It's part of why we end up in the same types of relationship patterns or the tames- same types of situations so often. So, what happens is originally when an anxious preoccupied tries to give the need that they would want from others to themselves instead, like, "If I want to encourage myself, let me write out three of my wins," or, "Let me journal about why I will be okay," or, "If I need certainty, let me schedule out what I'm needing or create structure in my life," at first, it feels a little bit foreign. This is always like the, the thing for anxious preoccupies. They have the hardest time meeting their needs themselves.
- 41:17 – 43:29
The biggest limiting beliefs from childhood (which one is yours?)
- TGThais Gibson
people who grew up in a more severely neglecting environment, um, tend to have this deep wound and kind of fear that, "I do not belong," kind of like, "I'm an outsider."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
Um, because as a child, if you grow up in that environment, you're not getting to deeply connect with other people. It will really foster that kind of wounding. So this individual as an adult becomes a person who can be very charming, charismatic, wonderful early on, but when things get real, they often get afraid, and so they will push people away. And they tend-
- MRMel Robbins
Or withdraw. Is that like the other...
- TGThais Gibson
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
Like when you say push people away, it sounds very active and purposeful-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... but is withdrawing an isolating?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. That's actually a really beautiful nuance that you pointed out. So essentially, there's this, like, this nuance that, that I think is an amazing nuance, which is the pushing people away versus pulling away. For sure, the dominant pattern with dismissive avoidants is to pull away-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... and to withdraw and to really retreat, kind of like a, a, a turtle going into their shell. Um, but we will definitely see dismissive avoidants, especially in like the earlier dating stages of relationships, actively push people away by sabotaging the relationship, by leaving early, um, if they feel like their feelings are too real-... or it feels too raw for them, they'll often say, "Okay, I have to get out of here. That's it, we're done," and there can be that push away dynamic. But when they're actually in a committed relationship, you'll see a lot more of the pulling away, the withdrawing, the retreating.
- MRMel Robbins
So, what are their needs? 'Cause I'm married to somebody-
- TGThais Gibson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... who is always in his head.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Like, he's very, very kind-hearted.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And yet isolates so quickly.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And is absolutely checking the box on absolutely everything that you just said.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And he has often said, "I really am not sure what I need."
- TGThais Gibson
Yes, that is the dismissive avoidant slogan. (laughs)
- MRMel Robbins
But how do you then... What do they need if they-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... don't know what they need?
- TGThais Gibson
It's an amazing question. And so, what you'll see is, um, the big needs that they have are, number one, they really need to feel safe in their relationships. This element of feeling that sense of safety and consistency is really important, because as children, they didn't feel safe when they had that neglect going on.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
And so they tried to develop that sense of safety just within themselves,
- 43:29 – 50:18
How to figure out your attachment style
- TGThais Gibson
but they often don't feel too safe relying on other people. Beyond that, they really need, even though they will never show it, they really need acknowledgement and appreciation. Now, they don't want, like, "Oh, you're the best partner in the world." They don't want these grandiose forms of it. They want the little things. They want, "Hey, I see that you're really trying here, thank you." Dismissive avoidants respond extremely poorly to negative reinforcement. They respond extremely positively to positive reinforcement. And what you'll see is if, if you ask a dismissive avoidant for y- for a need to be met, and then they do it and you say, "Hey, thank you. I, I see that you, like, really showed up for that," they get this sense... 'Cause you have to remember, right, if you grow up as a dismissive avoidant, then you don't get modeling for healthy exchange in relationships.
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
You get modeling for neglect, for everybody being ships passing in the night. And so they often feel really disempowered and incapable of doing relationships in this way.
- MRMel Robbins
I, I, you are literally describing my husband.
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs) I know.
- MRMel Robbins
I wish I had known this year one in our marriage. I mean, we're at year 27 and are finally unpacking the fact that... And what you just said is incapable.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
That he was so conditioned to be on his own-
- TGThais Gibson
Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
... ships passing in the night. "Fend for yourself" is the word that he used about his childhood.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
"Fend for yourself."
- TGThais Gibson
Totally.
- MRMel Robbins
And also, this sense, 'cause it's been very frustrating at times, to, to go, "You're so capable in every other area. Why the hell can't you just, like"-
- TGThais Gibson
Exactly.
- MRMel Robbins
"... think ahead about us or about the family?"
- TGThais Gibson
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
Now, a lot of things have changed, but this makes so much sense.
- TGThais Gibson
And, and dismissive avoidants often, like you said, they're so capable, they're very capable because they had to mentally and intellectually develop to fend for themselves. But they didn't really emotionally develop the exchange in relationships-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... 'cause that wasn't there. So they're almost stunted in their growth emotionally there. And that's part of when we go to needs, that, that appreciation and acknowledgement gives them this idea that, "Oh, I can do this. I am doing this right." And they respond so positively when they get that acknowledgement and appreciation. Now, beyond that, some other need that they really have is they really tend to need, um, empathy. They really-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... tend to fall into, like, infatuation or limerence. If somebody's really empathetic and supportive of them, it goes a very long way. Because again, these are deeply unmet needs from childhood. And so, um, that, that sense of supportiveness, that sense of empathy, that sense of appreciation, acknowledgement, safety, all of those things. Harmony tends to be another huge need in relationships. But I would say those encompass their biggest needs. The really interesting thing, the dismissive avoidant has this subconscious comfort zone. So because of this, what you'll see is, like, they grow up, they get neglected. Who is the biggest neglecter of the dismissive avoidant's emotions?
- MRMel Robbins
Themselves.
- TGThais Gibson
Themselves. And so part of their healing, just like for the anxious preoccupied, is to learn to give to themselves what they didn't get access to in childhood repetitively. So when they can actually start tuning into their feelings, doing some work to, like, be in their body, you know, practicing, like, meditation or breath work, or things that are gonna anchor them into parasympathetic or rest and repair, um, nervous system mode, what you'll see is doing that, getting their feelings back online, actually being okay with their emotions, not being afraid of them, realizing that their feelings are just feedback, they're just guidance mechanisms, building that relationship back to their feelings is actually the very thing that gives them emotional bandwidth in their relationships to others.
- MRMel Robbins
Wow.
- TGThais Gibson
So that becomes a huge part, along with giving themselves appreciation, giving themselves a sense of support. All the needs that they had that we mentioned are gonna be really important for that.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, what's interesting is that, you know, if you're in a relationship with somebody who has this dismissive avoidant attachment style, you tend to get very frustrated.
- TGThais Gibson
Absolutely.
- MRMel Robbins
And so you, in your frustration, are giving a lot of negative reinforcement, which makes them only pull away more-
- 50:18 – 53:52
How your fear of abandonment shows up in your relationships
- MRMel Robbins
with regard to texting and-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... uh, reaching out to somebody you're dating, and what is the conflict that a dismissive avoidant would have if the anxious attachment person is, "Okay, I'm not gonna text him today. I'm not gonna be clingy today," and then (imitates phone vibrating) they're texting. What does a dismissive do?
- TGThais Gibson
Dismissive avoidant is almost the exact opposite. So, they tend to get afraid of people relying on them, um, to various degrees because they feel like, "Okay, I can, I'm just here to take care of myself." They feel like it's a big commitment, and they also feel like it's a bit of an injustice in that commitment. Like-
- MRMel Robbins
Huh.
- TGThais Gibson
... "I shouldn't have to do things I don't want to do." The really interesting thing is that exactly what each attachment style needs to do to become secure is essentially, if we could sort of summarize it in a very high-level umbrella term, it's like we are striving for interdependency. Anxious attachment styles are super codependent. "I should meet all of your needs. You should meet all of mine. We never meet our own."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TGThais Gibson
Dismissive avoidants are very counter-dependent. "I should meet all my own needs. You should meet all your own needs. And we'll just sometimes come together."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TGThais Gibson
What they each need to do to co- is t- to come to center. "I can meet my needs, and I can rely on myself to meet my needs-"
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TGThais Gibson
"... and feel empowered to do so, and I feel safe and comfortable expressing and receiving from you," and vice versa. And the dismissive avoidant, when it comes to texting, they sort of have this idea that like, "I shouldn't have to text you if I don't feel like it."
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TGThais Gibson
But part of their growth is to allow people to rely on them, and, and they will actually do better at that when they learn that, "Hey, I can rely on other people too."
- MRMel Robbins
Mm.
- TGThais Gibson
There is an exchange, and there's something beautiful about the exchange. And what we'll see is on the path of dismissive avoidants becoming more secure, they'll start to rely on other people a little more first, and then they'll actually feel good about it, and then they'll realize that they wanna do that with others and allow others to rely on them. And then when they get that positive reinforcement, like, "Hey, I see you showing up, thank you," and they feel capable, and they feel encouraged, that's where they start to really move into interdependency. And they won't feel like texting if they don't feel like it is a chore, and they'll be more mindful and more consistent.
- MRMel Robbins
This is so amazing. And you're right. It is an incredibly helpful framework to really understand why some people are the way that they are, and we've covered a lot, so let me just recap where we are. We've covered what people with a secure attachment style are like. You have described anxious preoccupied attachment. We've now just covered dismissive avoidant attachment styles, and we got one left, and that is fearful avoidant. Thais, who are these fearful avoidant attachment style people, and what do they show up like in life? And can you tell us about their core wounds?
- TGThais Gibson
Okay, so fearful avoidants, because of growing up in that chaos, they usually, their, their primary wound is actually to struggle with trust. And it may not be trust in this really overt way the way you would think, but fearful avoidants are the most hypervigilant. They notice everything, reading between the lines on everything. Little tiny microexpression change, they fo- they saw it first. Little tiny change in a pattern of behavior, they noticed it. And fearful avoidants actually have the most core wounds. They tend to have-
- MRMel Robbins
(gasps)
- TGThais Gibson
... the core wounds of the anxious. They can fear abandonment, but what we'll see a lot for fearful avoidants is they can want this, this connection. They can feel afraid of being abandoned or not good enough or disliked or alone, but if people get too close too fast, they can also go into their very avoidant side, feel very afraid of being trapped, helpless, powerless, and then that's sort of combined with this struggle to trust and to feel safe opening up and relying on other people. So, they
- 53:52 – 55:43
The one question to ask yourself before you argue with your partner
- TGThais Gibson
really have both sides. What's interesting as well, um, is that as you date somebody more avoidant, because the fearful avoidant kind of has shared attributes of both sides, it will polarize you more into your opposite side. So-
- MRMel Robbins
Make you more anxious.
- TGThais Gibson
Exactly. They tend to have a little bit more intensity, a little bit more fire and spice.
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TGThais Gibson
So, we will (laughs) generally see that fearful avoidants, they tend to be, um, you know, fairly high achievers, hard workers. They tend to be a little bit of overcompensators sometimes. Um, sometimes this idea of like if you grew up in a childhood where nothing was kind of ever good enough, you can actually struggle with a deep unworthiness core wound as well, and so really struggle to kind of overcome that by showing up in all these different ways. Obviously, there can be superpowers to that.... that can be super beneficial. But again, the sort of casualty in it can be the relationship to self, because it can be so much about the outside world, how you have to show up for others. Fearful avoidants show up incredibly well for people in crisis, but they're so focused on other people, concerned with other people, that again, they kind of lose that relationship to self. And the funny thing as well is that, you know, with a fearful avoidant and dismissive avoidant, this is something I noticed so much with my own husband, is I, in the early stages, realized I was much better at communicating my needs because I had done a lot of work on that. But I realized that I still had this element of, like, expecting him to know my needs-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... when I would become critical or negatively reinforced. Like you were mentioning, it was because I would hold in my needs, not make space for myself, put myself last, prioritize everybody else, and then I would hold it in, hold it in. Anxious preoccupieds can do that forever. Fearful avoidants cannot. They hold it in, they hold it in, and then they kind of become the volcano erupting eventually. And they will say something harsh with their words, or they'll cut a little bit with how they speak. And what happened and what the learning for me
- 55:43 – 1:02:34
The 2 things you did in childhood that made you a people-pleaser
- TGThais Gibson
was, was, "Okay, I have to be so good at communicating my needs proactively," and that was actually part of my healing as a fearful avoidant, was to learn to, like, consider myself as much as I was considering everybody else. And so fearful avoidants have this dynamic of being very on, very intense personalities. They've had to struggle through chaos, so sometimes that subconscious comfort zone is chaos. They make very good entrepreneurs because they tend to (laughs) do well outside of their comfort zone in the chaos. But part of the healing is learning to be balanced and centered-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... learning to keep the relationship to self. And of course, we have to do the healing on the abandonment wounds and the trapped wounds, you know, both the anxious and avoidant side. But the real dynamic is to learn to trust.
- MRMel Robbins
Could you say more about the trust?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Because I think when you say the word trust, it, to me, I just think of, "Oh, do I trust you? Do I not trust you?" And I think ... on the surface, I think I trust people. But as you're talking, I'm feeling like when I don't know what my needs are, I get very overwhelmed and chaotic-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... internally.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And how does that relate to trust?
- TGThais Gibson
Because there's this element of not trusting your environment to be okay. There's this element at a deep level of the trust isn't just ... And it can be, of course, like, that I don't trust somebody won't lie or betray me. The thing that's really important to remember, too, is that our attachment wounds become the loudest and the most real for us when we actually attach. So we may-
- MRMel Robbins
What does that mean?
- TGThais Gibson
It means when we actually build an emotional bond and start developing feelings or open up or developing real closeness. So you may feel like, "Oh, I trust the stranger on the street-
- MRMel Robbins
Right, right.
- TGThais Gibson
... or the person I just met," but when we really let somebody in, that's when we'll-
- MRMel Robbins
Mm-hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... feel afraid that they might leave us or they might betray us by lying or through infidelity or through not showing up in a pinch when we really need them to be there. And so you'll see that those elements can really represent trust, but at a deeper level, because it really is the relationship to ourselves first, we'll also see that trust shows up in the way of, of us not trusting the outcome, trusting the environment. Sometimes we'll try to hyper-control things, um, or be five steps ahead of everything to make sure, you know. And so the, the real, um, healing for that trust wound actually becomes to look at all the places we betray ourselves. Um, and a lot of that can be that we don't show up for our own boundaries sometimes, or we say, "It's fine," when it's not actually okay. Or we agree to things and we say yes when it's really a no. And we don't protect our space, or, you know, there can be ways that we betray or lie to ourselves even. Like, "This is completely an okay situation." Meanwhile, you're just floundering, you know? So there can be these dynamics where we do that, and part of the healing around trust is to understand it in that context, and then as a result of that, to be able to be better in the relationship to ourselves around those things. And as we do that better, we'll learn to trust other people, because we'll also learn that people are not perfect. They're never gonna be perfect. People will hurt us. But the real building of relationships doesn't come from people being perfect. It comes from when somebody does hurt us, we can be vulnerable and say, "Ouch, that hurt. That didn't feel good for me. Can we work on this together?" And allowing people that chance to build that trust with you by working on it. And that's where we really build those deep roots around trust.
- MRMel Robbins
You know, as I'm sitting here listening, it almost sounds as if the anxious and the dismissive avoidant attachment styles, it's typical for somebody to be trapped in it and not really know their needs-
- TGThais Gibson
Mm-hmm.
- MRMel Robbins
... and to be completely hijacked by their emotions. And if I'm reading between the lines based on what you just said about the fearful avoidant, that you do know when your boundary's being violated. You just don't do anything about it.
- TGThais Gibson
It's a really nuanced thing, but it's really a powerful question. What tends to happen is that fearful avoidants can be a little bit dissociated from their, from themselves. They can be a little bit, like, so focused on the external world and their commitments and their things they have to do that they can be a little bit disconnected. And generally what happens is fearful avoidants will feel their emotions very strongly when they feel them. And it will usually look like holding things in, but it's, you may sort of have to reach this pivotal threshold where the emotions become strong enough because the frustrations and the experiences are big enough that now you've reached this threshold and it's almost like the fearful avoidant will go, "Oh, this person's violated my boundaries. Wait a minute. They did this three weeks ago and four weeks ago and five weeks ago," and then that frustration will really come to a, a head. And, and so yes, there can be a pushing down and a repressing, but it's almost so subconscious that it's not even in the periphery. And when it does come to the threshold, then the emotions can be a little bit stronger.
- MRMel Robbins
So, when it comes to personal goals...How does a fearful avoidant sabotage their ability to change?
- TGThais Gibson
Great question. (laughs) They tend to put so much pressure on themselves and take on so much that eventually they can kind of scatter themselves and be pulled in too many places. They also tend to put the goals and the interests of other people sometimes ahead of themselves. And again, it's not that we should be always putting ours ahead of everybody else. We want to get into equilibrium as much as possible, so, like, considering ourselves equal to others as much as possible. Whereas fearful avoidants tend to be, like, put everybody first, to a fault, until they're really frustrated and reach that threshold. So that can be a saboteur. And then also, fearful avoidants' core wounds can get in the way, right? We can come to believe, "Okay, I'm not worthy of my goal," or, you know, "I don't deserve it," or-
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm.
- TGThais Gibson
... "I'm not good enough." Or I know for myself, something I learned on my own journey, um, to being secure, was that (laughs) I used to run a business all on my own. And I wanted to control things enough because I didn't trust that other people could do it properly. And so... And it was that sort of trust wounding, right? Like, "Oh, but if I give this to somebody else or delegate it, they may not be able to do it, and they might make a mistake." And so learning to rely (laughs) on other people with our goals, learning to reach out for that help and support and to delegate can be a really important part of building that trust as well.
- MRMel Robbins
So the good news is that you can go do subconscious work because all of this stuff is running in the subconscious of your brain.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And you're not gonna overpower it with your conscious mind.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And the only way that you're going to change how you are showing up in relationships, to yourself, and everybody else is to take care of it in the subconscious.
- 1:02:34 – 1:11:56
How to reprogram your subconscious mind for healthier relationships
- TGThais Gibson
to reprogram the core wounds-
- MRMel Robbins
Let's do it.
- TGThais Gibson
... which is called auto-suggestion. So basically, how auto-suggestion works is the first thing, and I'll give a sort of a background story here first or context for it. But the first thing is we want to put ourselves in what we call a suggestible state. As somebody with a background in hypnosis, this is where this comes from. Suggestible state basically means that your brain is producing mostly alpha brain waves. And when you're in alpha brain wave state, you're a lot more suggestible, aka your subconscious mind is much more open to suggestion or to being reprogrammed. If you've ever seen somebody in an alpha state, it's often after a deep meditation, it's the first hour that they wake up in the morning, the last hour before they go to sleep, or if you've ever seen somebody when they're watching television, and you're like, "Bob, Bob," and, like, Bob's-
- MRMel Robbins
(laughs)
- TGThais Gibson
... just, like, in the television. (laughs) He's, like, in this sort of trance-like state. When we watch television, we actually produce a lot of alpha brain waves. So we get into a relaxed state, easiest way is first thing in the morning when you wake up.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay, but can I just, uh, make sure I understand?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
That when you first wake up, you are in the alpha state.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
But if you look at your phone, I'm assuming you will not-
- TGThais Gibson
(laughs) You can take yourself out of it very quickly, yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... be in your alpha state. Okay, so you're talking roll out of bed.
- TGThais Gibson
Absolutely, yes.
- MRMel Robbins
And immediately, the first thing you do so that you can take advantage of this alpha state in your brain-
- TGThais Gibson
Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
... where you're highly suggestible, which means highly programmable, everybody, what are we doing?
- TGThais Gibson
So then what we do is we take our first core wound, okay? So the, the... Let's just use a really simple one for argument's sake. So let's say it's, "I'm not good enough."
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. Now, how the hell do we figure out our core wound?
- TGThais Gibson
So remember the anxious person was like, abandoned, alone, excluded, disliked, not good enough. So we l- mentioned-
- MRMel Robbins
Gotcha.
- TGThais Gibson
... them all before, so hopefully people-
- MRMel Robbins
Okay.
- TGThais Gibson
... recognize themselves in that attachment style so far.
- MRMel Robbins
Okay. So if you go... So the process is first locate yourself in the attachment style.
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. Yes.
- MRMel Robbins
Second, really dig into what does the wound... And w- what is the wound for you and how is it showing up?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. And, I mean, you can, like... If you're not sure, you can ask yourself, "When I get triggered, what am I afraid the worst case scenario will be?" Like, you can think of times you were triggered and be like, "What am I really afraid will happen next?" And that's a way of kind of isolating it. But as a general rule, vast majority of people are like, "I have the abandonment core wound."
- MRMel Robbins
Right.
- TGThais Gibson
And they feel it, and they know. And so, so you can pick the one that's really bothering you the most. If we started with one for each, it would be abandonment for, um, anxious attachment style. It would be, um, betrayed for fearful avoidant, but also very strong secondary, um, uh, abandoned or trapped. Those also s- show up quite strongly. And dismissive avoidant would be, "I am defective," so, like, "I am shameful," essentially.
- MRMel Robbins
Hmm. Gotcha. Okay.
- 1:11:56 – 1:15:14
What love is supposed to look like
- TGThais Gibson
then we can actually go and see, like, what's modeled around us, and just the exposure and proximity to that through repetition over time will absolutely do the trick.
- MRMel Robbins
Thais, I just love that people can use that simple tool to begin to change their attachment style, and I also love knowing I can change my attachment style because what you're offering is not only this awesome framework, but you're also offering a simple way for any one of us to reprogram our subconscious mind. That is so cool. And I also wanna thank you because you have put together a special bonus meditation for the listeners of the Mel Robbins Podcast, and that is so generous of you. And let me just tell you a little bit about this meditation so you know what to expect. So, Thais recorded this meditation as a gift to you. It is designed to be listened to 21 days in a row, and here's how you can find it. It's the very next episode of the Mel Robbins Podcast. We also put a link in the show notes, but the title is this, Daily Meditation.Listen for 21 days to reprogram your subconscious. And again, it is already there waiting for you right after this episode. And it's designed to be listened to for 21 days in a row. It's one of the tools that Thais uses with her private clients, and it's something that you can use and share in your own life. Thais, can you just give the person listening a sense of the impact of this meditation?
- TGThais Gibson
Yes. And so you can shed all this stuff we've been carrying for so long. I mean, sometimes we have all these, like, wounds, and they show up everywhere and they interfere in so many different areas. But to actually drop them and to not have them, that you, they're popping up and you have to cope all the time and backtrack and apologize. Like, to not live like that is very freeing.
- MRMel Robbins
Amazing. Amazing. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.
- TGThais Gibson
Thank you. Thank you. This is, um, honored to be here. So grateful for, for you having me. Yeah.
- MRMel Robbins
Well, I'm grateful too.
- TGThais Gibson
I really enjoyed this.
- MRMel Robbins
I learned that I did not have the attachment wound that I thought I did. (laughs)
- TGThais Gibson
Ah. (laughs) That's good news.
- MRMel Robbins
So. And I know what to do about it, so-
- TGThais Gibson
Amazing.
- MRMel Robbins
... what you're doing is really important. I am just in awe of how simple this framework is and how powerful it is if you truly start to apply this to your life. I also wanna thank you for opening my eyes to the fact that my attachment style is not what I thought it was, because that insight is going to allow me to make my marriage even better. And one more thing. As you're listening, could you just send a little positive energy to Thais and help me thank her for the bonus meditation that she created specifically for you? Please check it out next. Listen to it 21 days in a row. I can't wait to hear the impact that it's had on your life, and if nobody else tells you this today, let me be the person to tell you, I love you, I believe in you, and I believe in your ability to become the most secure and the happiest version of yourself. I'll see you in a few days. And thank you, thank you, thank you for being here on YouTube. If you have not already subscribed, please, please, please subscribe. Only 35% of the people that watch this channel are subscribers. I'm trying to get it to 50%, so please just hit the button there. And you looking for the meditation? I know you were. You can watch that next.
Episode duration: 1:15:14
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