World Leading Therapist: Why You Feel Stuck in Life & How to Get Unstuck

1. 0:00 – 4:38

   Meet the Guest

   1. LGLori Gottlieb0:00

      (instrumental music plays) I think what people are dealing with, and it's very human, is that they want to feel better, they want something to change. But what they want to change is someone else. (laughs) Right? You can't change another person, but you can influence another person by doing something different.

   2. MRMel Robbins0:18

      Today on the Mel Robbins podcast, we have world-leading therapist Lori Gottlieb here on how changing your story changes your life.

   3. LGLori Gottlieb0:27

      You know, I'm not saying there aren't difficult people, but I am saying that we have a role in what is keeping us stuck, and that's what I call our story.

   4. MRMel Robbins0:37

      What does it mean that you have a story?

   5. LGLori Gottlieb0:39

      The way that we narrate our lives determines the quality of our lives and how we're going to live our lives. I think it's really important that we ask ourselves, is it kind, is it true, is it useful? And once we start talking to ourselves in a different way, we are changing our story immediately, which will change what happens on the next page. We get to write the story. We get to do something different. You could have all the insight in the world, but if you don't take action out in the world, the insight is useless.

   6. MRMel Robbins1:06

      What's one question therapists secretly wish that people would ask themselves more often?

   7. LGLori Gottlieb1:11

      Is there something about what I'm experiencing right now that feels familiar? And I want you to ask yourself...

   8. MRMel Robbins1:19

      Hey. It's your friend, Mel, and welcome to the Mel Robbins podcast. Lori Gottlieb, I have been waiting to meet you and to talk to you for a very long time. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.

   9. LGLori Gottlieb1:36

      Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm s- I'm such a fan of the show.

   10. MRMel Robbins1:40

       Oh. Well, thanks for saying that. So I want to start off by basically having you talk to the person-

   11. LGLori Gottlieb1:47

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MRMel Robbins1:47

       ... that is here with us right now. They have no time, but they have made the time to be here to learn from you today. And the first question that I have for you is, how is my life going to be different if I take to heart everything that you're about to share with it and I really put it to use in my own life?

   13. LGLori Gottlieb2:05

       Right. Well, I- I love this question because I think that after listening to this episode, you will experience a profound change in the way that you move through the world and in the way that you relate to others, whether it's family member, friends, romantic relationships, people you work with, and most important, you will pr- experience a profound shift in the way that you relate to yourself. And what's interesting about this is these aren't things that you can do later. These are things that you can put into practice right now.

   14. MRMel Robbins2:38

       I'm gonna feel differently about myself?

   15. LGLori Gottlieb2:40

       You are going to do something that makes you feel differently about yourself that has been true all along, but you have not been paying attention to it.

   16. MRMel Robbins2:50

       Wow. Well, I believe you because you have seen thousands of patients. You also write some of the most popular advice columns in the world. You have New York Times best-selling book, two podcasts. I've got to ad- imagine, Lori, that you see some of the same things over and over and over again in terms of what people write to you about.

   17. LGLori Gottlieb3:13

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins3:13

       So no matter of somebody's background or age, across all the patients and readers that you encounter, what is the core struggle that people are dealing with?

   19. LGLori Gottlieb3:25

       I think what people are dealing with, and it's very human, I'm guilty of this too, is that no matter whether people are coming to me in my clinical practice, or they're writing into my New York Times column, or they're writing into a podcast, it's the same thing, is that they want to feel better, they want something to change. But what they want to change is someone else. (laughs) Right?

   20. MRMel Robbins3:48

       (laughs)

   21. LGLori Gottlieb3:48

       So- so, you know, you see this all the time when someone comes to you and they're like, "Here's my problem, and the problem is over there," right?

   22. MRMel Robbins3:55

       Yes.

   23. LGLori Gottlieb3:56

       Um, and it's so interesting, you know, whether- whether it's like, you know, in- in Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, in my book, um, I follow four of my patients, but I'm the fifth patient in the book, and I'm going to my therapist and I do the same thing. I come in and I'm like, "Here's the problem. It's this person over here," right? We all do that. And it's not to say that there aren't difficult people out there. You know, I often say that the person who comes into therapy-

   24. MRMel Robbins4:16

       Mm-hmm.

   25. LGLori Gottlieb4:16

       ... is coming because the people in their lives who should have come to therapy haven't or won't. So, you know, there are difficult people. Um, you know, we have the saying in therapy, before diagnosing someone with depression, make sure they aren't surrounded by assholes.

   26. MRMel Robbins4:30

       (laughs)

   27. LGLori Gottlieb4:32

       So- (laughs) so, you know, I'm not saying there aren't difficult people. But I am saying that we have a role in

2. 4:38 – 13:31

   Why You Blame Everyone for Your Problems

   1. LGLori Gottlieb4:38

      what is keeping us stuck, what is making us frustrated, what some of our relational difficulties are, and that's what I call our story. And our story is something that we form from our past experiences, our current experiences, their beliefs that either we were taught or that we've acquired along the way, and the stories that we tell are faulty. They're incomplete. They're misguided. I don't mean that we don't have some semblance of what the story is, but we're leaving so much of it out. And the way that we narrate our lives determines the quality of our lives and how we're going to live our lives. So we have to examine these stories, and that's my work as a therapist, is I help people to edit their stories.

   2. MRMel Robbins5:21

      I wanna go back to something that you said, because as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, and I'm sure as you're listening or watching, you probably thought to yourself, "But wait a minute. My husband is the problem."

   3. LGLori Gottlieb5:34

      Mm.

   4. MRMel Robbins5:35

      "But wait a minute, if my kid would just be motivated," 'cause they have that saying that you're just as happy as your least happy child.

   5. LGLori Gottlieb5:41

      Right.

   6. MRMel Robbins5:41

      "Wait a minute, if my dad weren't such a narcissist in terms of the... Like, m- my life would be better. It's not me, Lori, it's everybody else." And so...Is it pretty commonplace that when you start to flip it back on somebody, that really we need to talk about your story, that people are like, "No, no, no, no, no?"

   7. LGLori Gottlieb6:00

      Right.

   8. MRMel Robbins6:00

      "It's them."

   9. LGLori Gottlieb6:01

      Yes. Yes. Absolutely. And- and I think first of all, part of it is the other person, right? It's an interaction, it's a dance.

   10. MRMel Robbins6:07

       Okay.

   11. LGLori Gottlieb6:07

       We're all doing a dance with somebody else. But you're doing certain dance steps. And if you can change your dance steps, then they're either going to fall off the dance floor or they're gonna have to change their dance steps too. And that has to do with, you know, which I'm sure we're gonna talk about, how do you set boundaries, how do you change your response to a person-

   12. MRMel Robbins6:27

       Hmm.

   13. LGLori Gottlieb6:27

       ... reacting versus responding.

   14. MRMel Robbins6:29

       Mm-hmm.

   15. LGLori Gottlieb6:29

       So there are lots of things that you can do. But also, that person has a story and you're not seeing their story. So if you can't see the story of why they're doing what they're doing and you start to personalize it, then you're going to react differently than if you can see, "Oh wait, there's a reason that they're doing this. They're communicating something to me not in the most effective way. And if I can get to that, I can respond in a much better way that's then going to get a better response from them."

   16. MRMel Robbins6:56

       Okay, so I already got two very powerful takeaways that I don't wanna just run away from. I wanna highlight them to make sure that as you're watching or you're listening right now, to us in the car or on a walk, that you really get this. So the first thing that I got that I found to be profoundly helpful is this image of a dance.

   17. LGLori Gottlieb7:12

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins7:13

       Because if you take that image in your mind and you insert the person who's driving you crazy-

   19. LGLori Gottlieb7:19

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MRMel Robbins7:19

       ... or the most challenging, it could be your boss, I don't personally wanna like f- think about myself dancing with my boss, but you know what I mean. It could be your parents-

   21. LGLori Gottlieb7:28

       Yeah.

   22. MRMel Robbins7:28

       It could be your adult child, it could be your partner, right? When I think about the da- I- I've never really thought about it as a dance-

   23. LGLori Gottlieb7:34

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins7:35

       ... but when you think about it as a dance, oftentimes with the challenging person, it feels like they're leading.

   25. LGLori Gottlieb7:40

       Yes.

   26. MRMel Robbins7:41

       And what you're about to teach us, if I'm about to read between the lines, is that you can actually, in seeing that it's a dance, you can take the lead. And by taking the lead, you can change the way the dance is going. Is that r- a fair assessment?

   27. LGLori Gottlieb8:00

       Yes, absolutely. It's, you can't change another person, but you can influence another person by doing something different.

   28. MRMel Robbins8:07

       Okay. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. But the part where you lost me-

   29. LGLori Gottlieb8:11

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins8:11

       ... is when you started to talk about you have to change the story you're telling yourself.
3. 13:31 – 18:18

   The Stories That Keep You Stuck

   1. MRMel Robbins13:31

      (laughs) , but what does it mean that you have a story?

   2. LGLori Gottlieb13:36

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins13:36

      You know, for somebody that's never sat across you in a private, you know, therapy session, how do you even define or understand what your story is since most of us has probably been telling it for a very long time?

   4. LGLori Gottlieb13:49

      A lot of us don't even know that we're carrying around a story.

   5. MRMel Robbins13:51

      Okay.

   6. LGLori Gottlieb13:51

      So that's the first part of this. So when people come to therapy, they're surprised that they have all these ideas and beliefs about themselves that they didn't even realize were there. So, there are things like, you know when you're growing up and people label you? Like, you're the sister who's very sensitive, and your sister was really resilient and easygoing.

   7. MRMel Robbins14:11

      Mm-hmm.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb14:12

      Well, that's your parents' story. You were difficult 'cause you were so sensitive. Another way to frame that story is you are a keen observer. You see things, you feel things, you are a caring person. Feelings matter to you, right? Um, and you're seeing something that everybody else in the family is denying.

   9. MRMel Robbins14:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. LGLori Gottlieb14:32

       So it's not that you're overly sensitive, it's like you're the sane one in the family.

   11. MRMel Robbins14:36

       Yes.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb14:36

       Um, we call that the identified patient. That's the person in the family who actually becomes, everyone in the family says, "You're a problem," but that person is saying, "Wait a minute, there's a problem," and people are like, "No, we don't wanna hear that there's a problem."

   13. MRMel Robbins14:46

       Yeah.

   14. LGLori Gottlieb14:46

       "So you're too sensitive," right? So that person grows up thinking, "I just don't want to express my needs to people because I'm difficult and I'm too sensitive." So then they end up with friends and romantic partners and professional situations where they let people walk all over them, because they're afraid that people are gonna think, "I'm too much, I'm too sensitive, I'm too difficult." Or, um, let's say you're in a family and your parents say, "Oh, you're, you were the lazy son, and your brother was so ambitious." Well, you probably weren't lazy. It's that you were not interested in the very narrow definition of what your family valued. So if your family valued, um, you know, academic success, or going to an elite school, but you were really talented and creative, or you valued, um, connections with people and you're really good at connecting with people, it's not that you're lazy, it's that you didn't wanna put time into something that was not interesting to you, or that you didn't value or wasn't important to you. But that person grows up and they think, "I'm not capable."

   15. MRMel Robbins15:49

       Mm.

   16. LGLori Gottlieb15:49

       "I've been told that I'm lazy."

   17. MRMel Robbins15:50

       Mm.

   18. LGLori Gottlieb15:51

       "I've been told that I don't have drive in me."

   19. MRMel Robbins15:54

       Mm.

   20. LGLori Gottlieb15:54

       And yet they know they do because they have passions, but they don't act on them. So that's where the story gets in the way. They know they have these things, but they think, "Wait a minute, but I'm the lazy one, so I'm not gonna really do anything about it." We want, you know when you're reading a book and you want the character to be consistent?

   21. MRMel Robbins16:10

       Yes.

   22. LGLori Gottlieb16:10

       Right? Like, it's like, it would be really out of character for the, for the person that I'm reading about to do this. That's what we do to ourselves. So the person who was labeled as lazy says, "You know, I really wanna do this thing, and, and maybe I wanna, like, be entrepreneurial, or maybe I wanna do this artistic thing, but it's out of character for me to be ambitious about this." We don't say that consciously to ourselves. It's just what is the roadblock-

   23. MRMel Robbins16:33

       Yeah.

   24. LGLori Gottlieb16:33

       ... to our actually acting on that. So these stories and untangling them and making sure they're accurate is so important, 'cause otherwise, everything you do, every choice you make, every decision you make, every, um, way that you move through the world is dictated by stories like, "I can't trust anyone," or, "I'm unlovable," or, um, "Everybody's life is better than mine." Thank you social media for that story, right? Um, you know, "I'm an imposter." Whatever the story is. And so we learn these stories and then we play the role of that character as adults without even realizing that they're not our stories. We don't own them. Somebody gave us that story, and that person gave us that story because of their own story. Like, the person who says, "You're too sensitive," the parent who says that to the child, that parent probably grew up in a family where nobody talked about feelings.

   25. MRMel Robbins17:27

       Yeah.

   26. LGLori Gottlieb17:27

       It was not okay. So they don't want a child who talks about feelings.

   27. MRMel Robbins17:32

       If you're taking this all in, like I'm taking this all in right now with you, but you're not sure what your story is, is there, like, something that you can do right now that sort of awakens it in you? You know what I mean? Like, 'cause, 'cause, is it, d- can you find the story by going, "My marriage isn't working, I'm not getting ahead at work, I, uh, don't know what to do in this situation with a friend." Like, how do you ... Because as we go through the different scenarios-

   28. LGLori Gottlieb18:05

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MRMel Robbins18:05

       ... and we start to talk about how you can change the story...

   30. LGLori Gottlieb18:09

       Yeah.
4. 18:18 – 25:15

   What Really Causes People to Overreact

   1. LGLori Gottlieb18:18

   2. MRMel Robbins18:18

      Um, I'd love for myself and for the person watching, the person that's listening right now, to have something that they can hold onto. Whether the story is, "I'm never good enough-"

   3. LGLori Gottlieb18:30

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins18:30

      ... or, "I'm not smart enough," or, "I've screwed up my life." Like, how do you identify it?

   5. LGLori Gottlieb18:34

      Yeah. First of all, I think that in a relationship, you can find out what your story is by, we like to say, if it's hysterical, it's historical. Which-

   6. MRMel Robbins18:43

      Wait, if it's hysterical, it's histor-

   7. LGLori Gottlieb18:44

      If it's hysterical, it's historical.

   8. MRMel Robbins18:46

      Like crying or funny?

   9. LGLori Gottlieb18:47

      It's... Meaning (laughs) ... Meaning, a big reaction.

   10. MRMel Robbins18:50

       Oh, okay. Okay.

   11. LGLori Gottlieb18:51

       Okay? A big reaction. So let's say that your partner does something.

   12. MRMel Robbins18:55

       Oh.

   13. LGLori Gottlieb18:55

       And, and you have a really big reaction to it. There's probably some story that you're telling yourself about yourself, like, "Well of course, you know, he's doing this because I can't get a partner who will treat me this way." Um, or, "Of course this is happening because my partner is this way." Right? Um, and so, we wanna say, look at... You know, what happens is if you have a story, so, so you know there's a story behind it because if you were having a reaction, and your feelings are valid, you're having some kind of reaction.

   14. MRMel Robbins19:28

       Mm-hmm.

   15. LGLori Gottlieb19:28

       But how big is it? It's like, if it's 80 degrees in the room, it's hot.

   16. MRMel Robbins19:33

       Yes.

   17. LGLori Gottlieb19:33

       But does it feel like 95 to you? Uh, is your thermostat off?

   18. MRMel Robbins19:37

       Like how annoying it is.

   19. LGLori Gottlieb19:38

       Right. Right. Like, how, how much do you feel inside? Do you go from zero to 60, right? There's some history. Like, there's something happening in the present, but there's also something that's informing your reaction.

   20. MRMel Robbins19:50

       Mm-hmm.

   21. LGLori Gottlieb19:50

       So that, that's part of it, is just to notice that. And then if you can say, "What is actually happening between us right now? And then, where is this big feeling coming from?" Like, how do I get it back to, yes, it's 80, which is uncomfortable, but it's not 95. How can I figure out, you know, what am I reacting to here that maybe is not all of what's going on in this interaction right now in the present?

   22. MRMel Robbins20:13

       What's one question therapists secretly wish that people would ask themselves more often?

   23. LGLori Gottlieb20:20

       Um, is, "There's something about what I'm experiencing right now that feels familiar."

   24. MRMel Robbins20:26

       Okay. "Is there something about what I'm experiencing right now that feels familiar?" So give me an example.

   25. LGLori Gottlieb20:32

       And-

   26. MRMel Robbins20:33

       Oh, and.

   27. LGLori Gottlieb20:33

       ... part two.

   28. MRMel Robbins20:33

       Oh, and. There's a and. Okay.

   29. LGLori Gottlieb20:34

       And, part two.

   30. MRMel Robbins20:35

       (laughs)
5. 25:15 – 30:25

   How to Give (and Receive) Wise, Honest Advice

   1. MRMel Robbins25:15

      so glad... It's on page 51 of your New York Times bestseller. You have this term Buddhists call idiot compassion, an apt phrase, an i- "In idiot compassion, you avoid rocking the boat to spare people's feelings, even though the boat needs rocking and your compassion ends up being more harmful than your honesty. People do this with teenagers, spouses, addicts, even themselves. Its opposite is wise compassion, which means caring about the person, but also giving him or her a loving truth bomb when needed." So what does that mean?

   2. LGLori Gottlieb25:49

      Right. So-

   3. MRMel Robbins25:50

      We don't wanna be an idiot. We wanna be wise. I- I-

   4. LGLori Gottlieb25:52

      Right. Right.

   5. MRMel Robbins25:53

      Okay. So-

   6. LGLori Gottlieb25:53

      And so this goes into friendships and why we're so afraid to have real conversations in friendships.

   7. MRMel Robbins25:59

      Yes.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb25:59

      Um, I think that if that woman would have asked her friends about this, I think that, given that they knew each other in high school, she- they would have said, "We're really sorry. Here's why you weren't invited," and she would have felt better about it.

   9. MRMel Robbins26:13

      Mm.

   10. LGLori Gottlieb26:13

       Maybe she wouldn't have felt great.

   11. MRMel Robbins26:15

       Right.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb26:15

       But she would have felt better.

   13. MRMel Robbins26:16

       Right.

   14. LGLori Gottlieb26:16

       So idiot compassion is what we do. So anybody in your life, your, your children, your partner, your siblings, your friends, they come to you and they say, "Listen to what my boss, my mother, my, you know, whoever, did," and we say, "Yeah, you're right. They're wrong and how dare they," right?

   15. MRMel Robbins26:34

       Right.

   16. LGLori Gottlieb26:34

       That's idiot compassion. We don't think about like, like somebody, let's say they say, "My boss is, uh, I think I'm gonna get fired," right? Now you say, "Well, you, you deserve a better boss and you're so great," but we know about that friend that they're not really into that job and they haven't been trying so hard.

   17. MRMel Robbins26:50

       That's true. You wouldn't hire them at your company.

   18. LGLori Gottlieb26:52

       Right.

   19. MRMel Robbins26:52

       But now you're saying the boss is the problem.

   20. LGLori Gottlieb26:54

       Right. So, so we, we support their position because we think that that's what it's like to be a good friend.

   21. MRMel Robbins27:00

       Yeah.

   22. LGLori Gottlieb27:01

       And, you know, I think the best friendships are where you can say to somebody and offer wise compassion, it's what we do in therapy, is we hold up a mirror to people and we help them to see something about their role in the situation that maybe they haven't been willing or able to see. So could you say, "You know, it seems like you don't, you haven't really loved that job." So you don't say like, "We know you suck at that job." You say, "It seems like you haven't really been invested in that job because it doesn't seem like you like that job." And then your friend might say, "Yeah, but I still," you know, and you kind of, you just kind of point out things and ask questions-

   23. MRMel Robbins27:38

       Okay.

   24. LGLori Gottlieb27:38

       ... so that they can come to some sort of conclusion. Sometimes you have to be a little more direct, like, um, an example is I had a therapy client who came in and she said like, "Hey, this, you know, the boyfriend is, is broke up with me and I can't believe it and people keep breaking up with me," and she's like, "My friends say that I, I should f- I deserve someone great and I'm wonderful and..." Great, okay. But it's kind of like if a fight breaks out in every bar you're going to, maybe it's you. What keeps happening here that you keep getting dumped? Because you are wonderful, but something is going on. So the question is, what's going on?

   25. MRMel Robbins28:15

       But I don't wanna look at that, Lori.

   26. LGLori Gottlieb28:16

       Okay, right.

   27. MRMel Robbins28:17

       I just wanna point the fingers at these idiots I'm dating.

   28. LGLori Gottlieb28:19

       Except, except you don't wanna keep getting dumped. So then we start to discover what her friends are not saying, which they know about her.

   29. MRMel Robbins28:26

       Which is what?

   30. LGLori Gottlieb28:27

       Which is like, "Well, you know, you can be a little bit... You know, when... Y- you, you've been looking through his texts and you always do that because you're so afraid of abandonment and you're worried that something else is going on," or, um, "You know, when he doesn't call, you text him 25 times," or, you know, those kinds of things. So-
6. 30:25 – 36:02

   How to Finally Get to Know Yourself

   1. LGLori Gottlieb30:25

   2. MRMel Robbins30:25

      You also say that part of knowing yourself is to also unknow yourself. What does that mean?

   3. LGLori Gottlieb30:33

      Yeah. That goes back to how we are told these stories about ourselves or we form these stories based on the experiences that we have. Again, the, you know, "I can't trust anyone," or, "I'm unlovable," or, um-

   4. MRMel Robbins30:44

      "I'm too much."

   5. LGLori Gottlieb30:44

      "I'm too much."

   6. MRMel Robbins30:45

      "I'm not good enough."

   7. LGLori Gottlieb30:45

      "I'm too sensitive, I'm lazy," whatever it is.

   8. MRMel Robbins30:48

      "I'm unlovable." What- what is the s- what do you think is the most common story that you hear that it boils down to?

   9. LGLori Gottlieb30:56

      I wish I could give you one story. I think, at the end, I think we all want to love and be loved, so the story might be a little different. But at the core of it, the theme of the story is, "How can I love and be loved?"

   10. MRMel Robbins31:10

       Hmm.

   11. LGLori Gottlieb31:10

       That is the ultimate story that everybody is trying to figure out.

   12. MRMel Robbins31:14

       So if you say to yourself constantly, "I'm not good enough," the add-on to that is, and that means, "I'm not gonna be loved."

   13. LGLori Gottlieb31:21

       Right.

   14. MRMel Robbins31:22

       Got it.

   15. LGLori Gottlieb31:22

       Right.

   16. MRMel Robbins31:22

       Or, "If I'm not smart enough, I'm not gonna be loved."

   17. LGLori Gottlieb31:25

       Right. And so when I say that we need to unknow ourselves, I think so much of our culture is about, "Get to know yourself, get to know yourself, journal, meditate, get to know yourself." I'm not against journaling and meditating. What I'm saying is that I think that we need to first unknow ourselves. Meaning we might say, "I'm the sensitive one. I'm the person who's too much." We need to unknow all of that. Start with a blank page, as writers do, 'cause we're writing stories here.

   18. MRMel Robbins31:52

       Okay.

   19. LGLori Gottlieb31:53

       Start with a blank page. What do you know about yourself? What can you unknow about yourself? So we start with the unknowing. Let's talk about some stories that you have about yourself, and let's make two columns. Let's write, "Here are the things that you think you know about yourself." "I'm very sensitive," whatever it is, right? Um, yeah.

   20. MRMel Robbins32:10

       Yeah, well, give us some more examples, 'cause I think this is very important for somebody who's listening or who's watching right now. What are some examples of typical things that people write down when it's, "This is what I know about myself"? 'Cause is it typically negative?

   21. LGLori Gottlieb32:24

       It's typically negative, yeah.

   22. MRMel Robbins32:26

       Okay.

   23. LGLori Gottlieb32:26

       Yeah. They might say something like, um, you know, they'll put in, like, a little bit of a positive thing, like, "I'm a really good friend." (laughs) You know?

   24. MRMel Robbins32:34

       Now let me bash myself.

   25. LGLori Gottlieb32:35

       (laughs) Right, exactly.

   26. MRMel Robbins32:35

       And be a terrible friend to myself.

   27. LGLori Gottlieb32:37

       But, but let me give the example of the friend who didn't like me.

   28. MRMel Robbins32:40

       (laughs)

   29. LGLori Gottlieb32:40

       Right? Immediately, that comes up. Um, you know, but they'll say something, but they don't ... Like, there are so many wonderful qualities that you have that you don't express because you think, "Oh, that's ridiculous," or, "Someone would laugh at that."

   30. MRMel Robbins32:52

       Okay.
7. 36:02 – 42:34

   Why You Never Feel Good Enough (and What To Do About It)

   1. MRMel Robbins36:02

   2. LGLori Gottlieb36:02

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins36:02

      Is that what you're saying? And so, if the, if the story that you've always struggled with is a sense that you're never gonna be good enough, it's never enough, no matter what you do, it's not enough to make people happy-

   4. LGLori Gottlieb36:13

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MRMel Robbins36:13

      ... can you walk us through those kinda three parts on how you'd do that?

   6. LGLori Gottlieb36:16

      Mm-hmm.First of all, we tend to globalize our story, right? So it's like maybe you struggled in something in school, let's say, or you struggled in, or you, you really wanted to be this kind of artist and you, maybe you're not good enough to be the kind of, to go to the level that you want to go to. Um, but that doesn't mean you're not good enough globally, right? So we tend to do that, but I think there's-

   7. MRMel Robbins36:41

      Oh, so if you have one failure, you didn't make the baseball team in high school.

   8. LGLori Gottlieb36:45

      Right.

   9. MRMel Robbins36:45

      Now all of a sudden, "I'm not good enough," and that starts to become the drumbeat in your head.

   10. LGLori Gottlieb36:50

       Right. So every time something doesn't work out for you, you go back to the, "I'm not good enough," but you're not looking at all the things that did work out for you.

   11. MRMel Robbins36:56

       Gotcha.

   12. LGLori Gottlieb36:57

       Right?

   13. MRMel Robbins36:57

       Okay.

   14. LGLori Gottlieb36:58

       So I think that's the selective attention that we pay to the things that corroborate our story. So, "I'm not good enough" every time something happens where you didn't get the thing that you wanted, whether it's like the date, the job, um, you know, whatever the thing was.

   15. MRMel Robbins37:13

       Yeah, I march-

   16. LGLori Gottlieb37:14

       The, the opportunity.

   17. MRMel Robbins37:14

       ... right back in your office, Laurie. I'm like, "See?"

   18. LGLori Gottlieb37:16

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins37:16

       "I told you."

   20. LGLori Gottlieb37:17

       Exactly, exactly.

   21. MRMel Robbins37:18

       "Didn't work out."

   22. LGLori Gottlieb37:18

       Exactly.

   23. MRMel Robbins37:18

       "I'm not good enough."

   24. LGLori Gottlieb37:19

       So on the other side of the page, I want you to write a time, no matter how small it is, where you were good enough, where you got something that you wanted or, you know, you asked the person on the date and they went on the date with you. It doesn't matter whether the relationship worked out, right? You, so, again, it's looking for the counterexamples. We tend to do this always or never type of thing.

   25. MRMel Robbins37:41

       Mm-hmm.

   26. LGLori Gottlieb37:41

       And we need to, you know, stories are not always or never. There's a lot to the story. There's so many different... Every interesting story has all different kinds of plot points. And so we need to make sure that we are including all of the data, and so we leave out the data that doesn't support our story.

   27. MRMel Robbins37:59

       And once you have just a couple examples, even though for those of us that struggle with feeling like it's never enough, those examples might not feel (laughs) like enough but we're gonna go with it, what was the third part, where you then ask yourself, "What could I do now that I'm an adult-"

   28. LGLori Gottlieb38:16

       Mm-hmm.

   29. MRMel Robbins38:16

       "... to be good enough," or is that how I would do it?

   30. LGLori Gottlieb38:19

       Right. I would say, "I am going to have a different framework." So when I go out into the world, when I tell myself that I am not good enough, I am going to assume that I am. Now, you're gonna say, "Well, that's, that's really difficult, right?" But there's this rubric, and I want people to think about this, which is, um, so I want you to think about, who is the person that you talk to most in the course of your life? Who's that person for you?
8. 42:34 – 53:43

   Why Change Feels So Hard

   1. LGLori Gottlieb42:34

      get it.

   2. MRMel Robbins42:34

      I would love to know, what is it that you are going to lose-

   3. LGLori Gottlieb42:39

      Yeah.

   4. MRMel Robbins42:39

      ... when you start to edit the story you tell yourself about yourself, and why is this loss of the familiar a sign that you're on the right path, not the wrong path?

   5. LGLori Gottlieb42:52

      This is so interesting because I think when people think about making a positive change, like you're going to get married, or move to a new city, or take a new job, um, people think, "Well, that's great. Why am I feeling so unsettled about this-"

   6. MRMel Robbins43:07

      Mm-hmm.

   7. LGLori Gottlieb43:07

      "... or ambivalent about this?" And that's because, or even- even something like, "I'm going to get out of this relationship that is not good for me," right? Because with change comes loss, and it is loss of what we already know. Humans don't like uncertainty. We like what we know. It's like, uh, there's a saying that the certainty of misery is better than the misery of uncertainty. The certainty of misery is better than the misery of uncertainty. So we would rather have something that is not great for us, but we know what it is, than the uncertainty of what we don't quite know yet, because we haven't experienced it yet.

   8. MRMel Robbins43:50

      Mm-hmm.

   9. LGLori Gottlieb43:50

      So you come from, you know, this is why we say we marry our unfinished business.

   10. MRMel Robbins43:55

       Wait, hold on. We marry our unfinished business?

   11. LGLori Gottlieb43:58

       If we haven't processed.

   12. MRMel Robbins44:00

       Wait, what does that mean?

   13. LGLori Gottlieb44:01

       It means that we cling to the familiar. So for example-

   14. MRMel Robbins44:04

       We've married a child? (laughs)

   15. LGLori Gottlieb44:06

       Na- (laughs) I mean, some people would say that, but what I mean is this. You grew up in a family. There were certain things that happened in your family, right? Even if you had a, you know, a- a really happy childhood-

   16. MRMel Robbins44:18

       Mm-hmm.

   17. LGLori Gottlieb44:18

       ... there were certain patterns that were in your family. So let's say that you had a parent who, when they were upset with the other parent, they gave that parent the silent treatment. And you said, "I don't like that. I want someone who's going to communicate." So then, you grow up, you get in a relationship, and you find this person and you say, "That person is so communicative. They're the opposite of, you know, that parent who gave the silent treatment. I didn't like that. I'm so glad I'm with this person." Then you realize that this person is avoidant in a different way. Maybe they don't give the silent treatment, but there's something that was familiar about their pattern, like they can't get too close with you.

   18. MRMel Robbins45:00

       Mm.

   19. LGLori Gottlieb45:01

       They shy away from intimacy. They communicate well, but they- there's something about, like getting very close, right? So it's like we replicate that thing or, you know, "I'm not gonna be with someone who drinks too much," and then lo and behold, "I have someone with a really bad temper." You know? (laughs) Or, you know, whatever it is, it's something like when they drink, they have a really bad temper. They're not an alcoholic, but.

   20. MRMel Robbins45:22

       Yeah.

   21. LGLori Gottlieb45:22

       Um, so we tend to replicate those things if we, because we think, "I couldn't control that as a child." This is totally outside of our awareness. "I couldn't control that as a child, but as an adult, I'm gonna master that situation that made me feel so helpless as a child. Now I'm going to beat that thing." So like a moth to flame, you know, you find someone, you're like, "We have amazing chemistry." Turns out how did this happen? I ended up with someone who has this trait that I said I didn't want. That was exactly what feels like home. And so we're always searching for home, but if you process the things about home that weren't optimal, now you can search for a healthier home. But you have to process those things that made home feel like home, and then the things that you don't want in your new home. Otherwise, you're gonna take the whole bucket of home, which includes the things that you didn't want.

   22. MRMel Robbins46:17

       So can you unpack that a little further? Because what that left me feeling, 'cause I think a- a- a lot of, I know I can relate to that idea, that you marry the familiar.

   23. LGLori Gottlieb46:30

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MRMel Robbins46:31

       You end up with a very same dynamic that you saw in your parents. It doesn't mean, you know, your parents had a good or a bad one.

   25. LGLori Gottlieb46:36

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MRMel Robbins46:36

       You just end up with the familiar. And now you have an opportunity to evolve, and to edit, and to write your own story.

   27. LGLori Gottlieb46:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MRMel Robbins46:45

       But if you hear that and you're like, "Oh my God, my dad was a drunk and I'm married to one," or you're like, "Oh my gosh, I was a kid that basically had to be the adult-

   29. LGLori Gottlieb46:57

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins46:58

       "... and the second parent, and now I've fallen in love with a grown child-
9. 53:43 – 1:00:50

   Tips to Heal From Guilt and Shame

   1. LGLori Gottlieb53:43

   2. MRMel Robbins53:43

      What do you say to somebody who says, who feels like a bad person for having these complicated feelings, whether it's the feelings that, you know, you just mentioned the example of somebody coming in and they're so stuck in their relationship they're thinking of having an affair?

   3. LGLori Gottlieb53:59

      Mm-hmm.

   4. MRMel Robbins53:59

      Or it's somebody who is secretly harboring a ton of anger at their parents, or something that you're like, "I shouldn't feel this way," so there is that shame of even admitting the story that you silently tell yourself.

   5. LGLori Gottlieb54:13

      Yeah.

   6. MRMel Robbins54:13

      What do you, what do you say as a therapist?

   7. LGLori Gottlieb54:15

      (laughs) So I get so many letters. In fact, to our podcast we got a letter that we characterized as tell me I'm not a scumbag letter.

   8. MRMel Robbins54:21

      Yes.

   9. LGLori Gottlieb54:21

      And it was, you know, it's like I think that a lot of people feel like, "I'm sharing..." That's why they're writing to us. They can't, they feel like they can't tell anybody else that they're having these feelings that they don't realize everybody has feelings like this. It is so normal. It doesn't make you a bad person, it makes you a person. If you don't have complicated feelings like this, you are not fully engaged in your humanity. We have all kinds of complicated feelings, but we shouldn't judge them. We need to notice them, we need to have compassion for them, and then we need to say, "What do I want to do with them?"

   10. MRMel Robbins54:54

       Mm-hmm.

   11. LGLori Gottlieb54:54

       It's kind of like, you know, when you say to your kids, like, "It's okay to be angry. It's not okay to hit your brother."

   12. MRMel Robbins54:59

       Yes.

   13. LGLori Gottlieb54:59

       Like, have the feeling. That's great. Acknowledge it. Don't, don't say to your kid, "Don't be angry." So you say, "I know you're angry. I get it."... right? You can't hit your brother, but I get it. As opposed to the parent who says, you know, "Don't be angry, you shouldn't be angry. Your brother loves you, he didn't mean it," well, (scoffs) now you're really gonna wanna hit your brother, right?

   14. MRMel Robbins55:20

       So in the example that you gave us that you're thinking about having an affair, and you just said, "You're not a bad person."

   15. LGLori Gottlieb55:28

       You're just a person.

   16. MRMel Robbins55:28

       You're just a person.

   17. LGLori Gottlieb55:29

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MRMel Robbins55:30

       You need to notice that you're having that conversation with yourself. You need to talk about that with yourself instead of shaming yourself.

   19. LGLori Gottlieb55:38

       And you need to understand the story behind it, so-

   20. MRMel Robbins55:40

       Like why.

   21. LGLori Gottlieb55:41

       So this person might say, um, "You know, I feel..." I mean, there's so many different versions of this, but what it generally comes down to is, and it's not, I- I want to be really clear, the person decides to have an affair, it is not the partner's fault, okay? The other person. There might be issues in the marriage, so I think people get really tripped up by, yes, there might be things in the marriage that make one partner think, "Maybe I wanna have an affair," but the choice to have an affair is totally on the person who has the affair.

   22. MRMel Robbins56:12

       Yeah.

   23. LGLori Gottlieb56:12

       So I just wanna clarify that. Um, but I think that, you know, the person, if you put them in the chair and say, "Tell me, let, I'm talking to the part of you that really wants to leave the marriage or really wants to have an affair," then the person will say, "I feel so stuck and hopeless. I feel unalive."

   24. MRMel Robbins56:29

       Hmm.

   25. LGLori Gottlieb56:29

       "Um, I wanna feel alive again. I wanna feel connected again. I don't know how to do that in the situation that I'm in, and I think I can do that outside of, you know, the marriage." "Tell me when you felt alive." Now we go back to the other chair, "Tell me when you feel alive or have felt alive with this person in this marriage." Oh, they light up so much. "It was like this, and we did this, and I love this about him or her," right? Um, you know, and you get to that, "Okay, now we can work with this. Now we have, okay, here's the gap between what you want and what you had-"

   26. MRMel Robbins57:02

       Hmm.

   27. LGLori Gottlieb57:02

       "... and what you want to have again. Let's talk about what you want the next page of this story to be like," right? And so now we can, we can, we have something to work with.

   28. MRMel Robbins57:12

       I- I keep thinking about this section in Atomic Habits where James Clear talks about the importance of, or the power of attaching identity to the kind of changes that you wanna make.

   29. LGLori Gottlieb57:27

       Mm-hmm.

   30. MRMel Robbins57:28

       So saying things like, "I'm the kind of person who doesn't drink during the week. I'm the kind of person that makes my bed in the morning."
10. 1:00:50 – 1:02:18

    What Anxiety Really Is

    1. MRMel Robbins1:00:50

    2. LGLori Gottlieb1:00:50

       Yeah.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:00:50

       ... if you're somebody that's really struggling with anxiety-

    4. LGLori Gottlieb1:00:52

       Mm-hmm.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:00:53

       ... what is anxiety pointing out? What- what- what is that telling you?

    6. LGLori Gottlieb1:00:57

       Yeah. Anxiety means that you're either operating in the past or the future, but you're not sitting in the present.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:01:03

       Oh.

    8. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:03

       So what we do with anxiety is we tell ourselves a story. I know I keep saying story, but- but this is, you know, this is how we make sense of our lives. We, you know, from- from cave people on who, like, you know, made these pictures to tell st- this is how we make sense of our lives, so we're always telling stories even if we don't realize it. So, um...When you are feeling anxious about something, like "I think my boss doesn't like my work," or-

    9. MRMel Robbins1:01:30

       Mm.

    10. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:30

        ... "I think my partner is angry with me," or, um, "I-"

    11. MRMel Robbins1:01:34

        " I think I'm gonna get in trouble."

    12. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:35

        "I think I'm gonna get in trouble."

    13. MRMel Robbins1:01:36

        Or, "I think I screwed up."

    14. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:36

        Right.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:01:37

        Or, "I think people are talking about me."

    16. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:38

        Yes, yes.

    17. MRMel Robbins1:01:39

        Okay?

    18. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:39

        You are telling a story, and again, we tend to tell the negative story. So you're writing the next page of your story, but it's like a horror story.

    19. MRMel Robbins1:01:46

        (laughs)

    20. LGLori Gottlieb1:01:47

        Right? It's not like, it's not like, "Oh, this worked out, and here's how it worked out." It's like, "This is the worst possible thing that could've happened." That's the story we tell ourselves. Like, okay, so people are talking about me, or I messed up, or I said this thing, and now people are not gonna like me, or they're gonna tell about it on social media. Or, you know, some catastrophic thing is going to happen-

    21. MRMel Robbins1:02:07

        Yes.

    22. LGLori Gottlieb1:02:07

        ... as opposed to, "Oh, this thing happened. Okay, what can I do about it now?" um, instead of writing a story about something that hasn't happened yet and probably

11. 1:02:18 – 1:05:14

    How to Identify Your Emotional Needs in a Relationship

    1. LGLori Gottlieb1:02:18

       won't.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:02:18

       You know, one other thing that I've, I've read that you said is that partners hand you the owner's manual-

    3. LGLori Gottlieb1:02:24

       Yes.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:02:24

       ... for how they need to be loved, but we ignore it.

    5. LGLori Gottlieb1:02:28

       Yes, yes. It's so interesting. If you think about it, like when you get a new appliance or a new piece of technology, you don't know how it works, and most of us don't read the owner's manuals. We're kinda like, "Okay, I'll just try to figure this out," and then when it glitches, we're like, "Oh, let me look, let me look that up. Let me see how this thing (laughs) actually works." We do the same thing with partners. We don't think about, "I should know how this person works." We just notice when, "Oh, something went wrong. I better figure that out." So what you wanna do is your partner's giving you clues all the time about how they work. So a partner might, you might notice that, like, "When my partner is upset, if I put my hand on her shoulder, she finds that really calming."

    6. MRMel Robbins1:03:08

       Mm.

    7. LGLori Gottlieb1:03:09

       "Like, it connects us, and then we can have a better conversation. Oh, oh, that's something for the owner's manual," right? "So I need to know." Now, there might be another person where if you're in a heated argument and you put their, your hand on their shoulder, they're like, "What are you doing? No, we're, we're in a fight right now," right? They don't like that. Everybody's different. Everybody has a unique owner's manual. I think about a client who was saying that, you know, when she came home, her husband would ask her a million questions about her day, and she would get really irritated. And so she would, she would be like, "I just need to go change into my sweats, and I need, like, 15 minutes to, like, chill out, and then I really wanna tell you about my day," right? Now, I had another client who said, "I don't know why my partner doesn't ask any questions about my day when I come in the door. I feel like they don't care about me." So you have to know. Do you see how the owner's manuals are different? One-

    8. MRMel Robbins1:03:59

       Yes.

    9. LGLori Gottlieb1:03:59

       ... person really wants questions when they walk in the door. The other person really needs 15 minutes, and then they want to engage. So if you get to know your partner, things go much smoothly if you read the owner's manual. Now, just like with our tech and our appliances and whatever it is, w- if we know how it works, we're gonna have fewer breakdowns. So, um, you know, I think that another part of the owner's manual is that you can't assume that just because you operate in a certain way, the other person does too, whether it's about, you know, spending or saving money, or spontaneity versus planning. You know, you might be like, "I feel this way about it. Why don't you feel this way (laughs) about it?" Right? Or, you know, like, um, you know, this person said this to you. "Why are you upset about it? I wouldn't be upset about that." Well, because they have a different owner's manual.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:04:48

        Mm.

    11. LGLori Gottlieb1:04:48

        So you've gotta understand that... And I think when you've been with a partner for a long time, you assume that you know their owner's manual, 'cause you've been with them for a long time, and then you find out, "Oh, wait a minute, I don't know everything. I need to be curious, and I need to ask." So instead of assuming, "I know what they want," or, "I know what I would want in this situation, and that's what they would want," you really wanna find out, and you wanna notice, like, how do you learn what works? And they need to learn that about you too.

12. 1:05:14 – 1:12:55

    How to Fight Without Damaging Your Relationship

    1. LGLori Gottlieb1:05:14

    2. MRMel Robbins1:05:14

       I would love to, um, have you answer some listener questions.

    3. LGLori Gottlieb1:05:20

       Sure.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:05:21

       So this one comes from Kaylee. "I'm in a five-year relationship. I find myself (laughs) nagging him-"

    5. LGLori Gottlieb1:05:26

       Mm.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:05:27

       "... a lot, and almost searching for a problem with everything and anything he does. I need help stopping this behavior, because he feels attacked"-

    7. LGLori Gottlieb1:05:38

       Mm-hmm.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:05:38

       "... which only makes him put his guard up, leading to even more things for me to pick apart."

    9. LGLori Gottlieb1:05:44

       (laughs)

    10. MRMel Robbins1:05:44

        "I love him, and I just wanna figure out, why do I do this, and how do I stop?"

    11. LGLori Gottlieb1:05:50

        I love that she is asking, "Why do I do this?" That is the most important part of her question, "Why do I do this?" And I would wanna know, where did she learn this? Where did she learn that when somebody else disappoints you, because whatever he's doing is disappointing her, it's not going the way she wants, that you come at them-

    12. MRMel Robbins1:06:10

        Mm.

    13. LGLori Gottlieb1:06:10

        ... that you come at them? That's not how you get people to change. You don't come at them and tell them all the ways that they need to do things so that you will be happier. You tell them that, "There's something going on in our relationship. It's us. It's not you, it's not me, it's us, and here are some of the things..." And you might say, like, "I'm wondering why..." Um, you know, I don't know what the specifics are. Let's say it's, you know, "I'm wondering why you don't do the laundry." I, I have no idea what they're thinking. "I'm wondering why you don't walk the dog." Um, "I'm wondering why." That's all. It's just, "I'm wondering why." "Oh, well, I thought you were gonna do the laundry," or, or, "I thought..." You know, "I didn't really want the dog. It was really your thing, and we kind of got the dog, but I, I'm actually kinda resentful that we got the dog." Right? Things will come up in the conversation about the why, and now you have a place to talk about it.

    14. MRMel Robbins1:07:03

        Mm.

    15. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:04

        Nagging him is, as she said, and as she noticed, is only going to make him not want to engage with her even more, and probably not do the things... You know, he's not gonna be inclined to want to please her.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:07:16

        Mm.

    17. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:17

        Because he sees her as, "You are doing things wrong. You are bad. You are bad. You are bad. You are bad." That's what he's hearing.

    18. MRMel Robbins1:07:23

        Yes.

    19. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:23

        It doesn't matter what the content is. He's hearing, "You're bad. You're disappointing me. You're failing."... you know, "You're making me unhappy." Who wants to hear that?

    20. MRMel Robbins1:07:32

        Well, and I think what's super relatable about this is everybody's had an experience where they've either been the one nagging-

    21. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:39

        Yeah.

    22. MRMel Robbins1:07:39

        ... and they are trying to stop, or you're the one who's being nagged, and you're shutting down.

    23. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:44

        Yeah.

    24. MRMel Robbins1:07:44

        And so if you take everything that you're teaching us around the fact that it's a dance, and you're in a dynamic that doesn't work, you start with your story first. So let's say you're the one being nagged.

    25. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:57

        Yes.

    26. MRMel Robbins1:07:57

        So you're shutting down.

    27. LGLori Gottlieb1:07:58

        Mm-hmm.

    28. MRMel Robbins1:07:59

        Where, the question that you ask yourself is, "When else in my life have I felt this way?" Is that what you're asking yourself?

    29. LGLori Gottlieb1:08:06

        W-

    30. MRMel Robbins1:08:06

        'Cause you're looking for why this feels familiar.
13. 1:12:55 – 1:14:29

    How to Support Someone in a Toxic Relationship

    1. MRMel Robbins1:12:55

       Uh, Robin has a question that I think a lot of us can relate to, um, 'cause I see this a lot in the inbox.

    2. LGLori Gottlieb1:13:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:13:04

       And that is that she has a 29-year-old daughter who is thriving. She's in her third year of medical school, very proud of her, but we're struggling with her partner.

    4. LGLori Gottlieb1:13:13

       Mm.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:13:14

       This is that you see the person that you care about is with somebody who is bringing them down-

    6. LGLori Gottlieb1:13:21

       Yeah.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:13:21

       ... or you suddenly see that this person that you care about is no longer themselves.

    8. LGLori Gottlieb1:13:25

       Mm-hmm.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:13:26

       And, you know, she goes through a long list about how, uh, "This person is 30 years old. He barely speaks when he visits. He has a very traumatic past. Might see my daughter tiptoeing around his needs."... uh, seems to be falling into a rescuer role. I've even started therapy to help myself cope with this.

    10. LGLori Gottlieb1:13:47

        Mm-hmm.

    11. MRMel Robbins1:13:48

        I'm really struggling and would value any advice to cope with the relationship drama that has been brought to our family. How do I support my daughter-

    12. LGLori Gottlieb1:13:59

        Mm-hmm.

    13. MRMel Robbins1:14:00

        ... without damaging our relationship or enabling something that feels unhealthy?

    14. LGLori Gottlieb1:14:05

        Yeah. Well, first of all, it's so hard to watch your child be in a situation that you feel is bringing them down.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:14:13

        Mm-hmm.

    16. LGLori Gottlieb1:14:13

        Or even dangerous. And, you know, when they're younger, we feel like, well, we can kind of, (laughs) we can kind of do something about that. Um, and as they get older, we have to let go more and more and more and more, but that doesn't mean you have to do nothing. So, so-

Episode duration: 1:26:27