Your Grief & Heartbreak Will Get Better the Moment You Watch This

1. 0:00 – 12:16

   Meet the Guest

   1. DKDavid Kessler0:00

      (instrumental music plays) I know it, you know it, no one's talking about this topic. No one wants to talk about it. It is the most needed, requested topic that no one wants to talk about.

   2. MRMel Robbins0:12

      What nobody tells you about grief and loss. I needed the right person to guide you and me through this topic, and that person is David Kessler. David has over 30 years of experience helping people through unimaginable loss. He's lived it, he's studied it, he's taught it, and today, he is here in our Boston studios for you and the people that you care about. How is my life gonna be different?

   3. DKDavid Kessler0:39

      Your life is gonna be fuller and bigger. Today, if people can find a way to grieve fully, they will live fully. Loss in our life pushes our bandwidth for pain, but it also pushes our bandwidth for happiness and joy and laughter. You know, to me, the goal of grief work is to eventually remember with more love than pain. When you release the pain, in your own way, in your own time, you will be connected only in love. Our life was with them then, our life is with us now, and we have to continue to live it. No feeling is final. It is going to change. Take the next step. Wake up.

   4. MRMel Robbins1:33

      It can be done?

   5. DKDavid Kessler1:34

      It can be done.

   6. MRMel Robbins1:38

      Please help me welcome David Kessler to the Mel Robbins Podcast. It is so great to see you. Thank you, thank you, thank you for making the trip here to Boston to be on the Mel Robbins Podcast.

   7. DKDavid Kessler1:50

      I am thrilled to be here.

   8. MRMel Robbins1:52

      How does it feel to know that this is the topic that is one of the most requested topics that we have received from listeners around the world?

   9. DKDavid Kessler2:07

      I know it, you know it. It is the most needed, requested topic that no one wants to talk about.

   10. MRMel Robbins2:16

       I wanna start by having you talk about how is my life gonna be different if I take everything to heart that you're about to share with us, and I apply it to my life? How will my life be different, David?

   11. DKDavid Kessler2:33

       This is gonna sound strange, but I can almost guarantee it, if you were to do this work, listen to this, share it, your life is gonna be fuller and bigger, and it's gonna be richer. And I'm evidence of that. You know, loss is about subtraction. We need to find ways to bring addition into this.

   12. MRMel Robbins3:02

       Hmm.

   13. DKDavid Kessler3:03

       And so I'm gonna throw every tool I can think of at everyone, at everyone, to really help folks have ways to find their inner wholeness.

   14. MRMel Robbins3:17

       Well, what's interesting as I listen to you already is nobody can go through life without experiencing some kind of devastating loss.

   15. DKDavid Kessler3:25

       I have been studying the statistics. Here they are. It's a trend. Death rate, 100%.

   16. MRMel Robbins3:33

       (laughs)

   17. DKDavid Kessler3:34

       100%.

   18. MRMel Robbins3:35

       I don't mean to laugh but... (laughs)

   19. DKDavid Kessler3:35

       Every ance- like, listen, and I always tell people, "To begin with, you come from a long line of dead people. Like, every ancestor you have has died." There is something in us that knows how to do this.

   20. MRMel Robbins3:50

       Hmm.

   21. DKDavid Kessler3:51

       I'm teaching people what our great-grandparents knew how to do. And the thing is, today, if people can find a way to grieve fully, they will live fully.

   22. MRMel Robbins4:06

       If people can find a way to grieve fully, they can live fully.

   23. DKDavid Kessler4:13

       And let me tell you the most bizarrest concept. I spent my, so much of my life in hotel meeting rooms, giving talks. You know, s- there were days it was 10 people and 50 people and 300 people, and after the talks, it happened more than once, we're in a large meeting room, the hotel, there's the, there's the realtors are in the next room, and after the day, the staff would say, "What were you teaching?" And I would go, "Why?" And they would go, "'Cause your room was laughing the most." And I would go, "Grief." And they would go, "What kinda grief?" I would go, "That kinda grief, like someone's dying or someone's already died." And they couldn't understand it. And here's why that happens. Loss in our life pushes our bandwidth for pain, but it also pushes our bandwidth for happiness and joy and laughter. People in my rooms learning about it, they probably did cry a little harder, but they also laughed harder.

   24. MRMel Robbins5:22

       I love that promise, that in grief, yes, it expands your capacity to feel pain, but it also expands your capacity to feel joy and laughter and all of these other aspects of life. And you say that not just as somebody, David, who has spent your life counseling people going through grief, educating other, uh, health practitioners, mental health practitioners, medical professionals in the actual...

   25. DKDavid Kessler5:55

       Teach doctors how to give bad news.

   26. MRMel Robbins5:56

       Yeah, like in the field of grief, but you experienced a loss of your own.... your son David died, and that shifted how you think about and how you talk about grief. So could you just share what happened with your son?

   27. DKDavid Kessler6:16

       Sure. And let me start with, I was a grief expert for decades. I had lost my mother when I was 13, horrible tragedy, so I grew up in grief, and was looking for my own healing. And I'll tell you, when my mom died when I was young, and people will get this, I thought I was the only person that ever lost a parent.

   28. MRMel Robbins6:45

       Mm.

   29. DKDavid Kessler6:45

       Like, I didn't know this happened to other people at 13. You asked about my son David.

   30. MRMel Robbins6:52

       Mm-hmm.
2. 12:16 – 18:03

   Understanding Different Grieving Styles

   1. DKDavid Kessler12:16

      I have a name for them.

   2. MRMel Robbins12:17

      What is it? What is it?

   3. DKDavid Kessler12:18

      Practical grievers.

   4. MRMel Robbins12:19

      Practical grievers?

   5. DKDavid Kessler12:20

      Practical grievers.

   6. MRMel Robbins12:21

      Okay.

   7. DKDavid Kessler12:22

      That's okay. That's who they are, and by the way, they were practical about everything. They were practibl- practical about the divorce, practical about the move. They were practical. That's just who they are. It's gonna be... And we always think, "Oh, when they get to a big moment, a big loss, they're gonna change." They don't. They're consistent, and it drives everyone else nuts. Be- 'cause we think they don't have enough feelings, and by the way, they think we have way too many feelings. So these are just different styles of grieving, and that's okay. We don't need to change them. They don't need to change us.

   8. MRMel Robbins13:00

      If you're listening and you either are like, "Oh, yes. That family is definitely practical grievers," or, "My brother is a practical griever," or you're listening and you're like, "Oh, well, that's me," what i- what do you want us to know about what's going on beneath the surface when somebody is very practical and then we move on, but something's lingering? What do you want us to know?

   9. DKDavid Kessler13:27

      Well, I would first ask, is the something lingering a projection of ours or is it real?

   10. MRMel Robbins13:33

       Oh.

   11. DKDavid Kessler13:33

       'Cause in real practical grievers, nothing's lingering.

   12. MRMel Robbins13:36

       For real?

   13. DKDavid Kessler13:37

       For real. They're... They're-

   14. MRMel Robbins13:37

       That's possible?

   15. DKDavid Kessler13:38

       Yep. They're done. They went to the funeral. I mean, a practical griever doesn't go to therapy. I mean, a practical griever will say, "Therapy? I got friends for that. Why would I ever go to a therapist or a coach? Why would I do that?" No. Practical grievers have events and move on. That's them. Nothing wrong with them. It's just, they're from another planet. Most of us on this planet don't get them, but it's okay. It's okay. We need to make sure we're not going to practical grievers for support.

   16. MRMel Robbins14:15

       Oh, because they're very pragmatic, and that's-

   17. DKDavid Kessler14:17

       They're like, "It's time."

   18. MRMel Robbins14:17

       ... how they deal with grief. Yep.

   19. DKDavid Kessler14:18

       "It's time. Move on. No pity parties. Let's move on." That's your practical griever. Oh my gosh, and I have a lot of them in my life. I've had to become a champion of not making them wrong.

   20. MRMel Robbins14:32

       What do you do if you're married to a practical griever?

   21. DKDavid Kessler14:34

       Let them be themselves.

   22. MRMel Robbins14:35

       But you-

   23. DKDavid Kessler14:37

       You-

   24. MRMel Robbins14:37

       ... are trying to be a practical griever, but you're not.

   25. DKDavid Kessler14:41

       Well, in grief, it is a time when our best friends, our spouses can feel like strangers. But strangers can feel like friends and family. Here's the thing. If your spouse, if your best friend, if your sister who gets everything doesn't get your grief, let it go. Like the saying, "You can't walk up and down the aisle of a hardware store hoping to find milk."

   26. MRMel Robbins15:08

       (laughs)

   27. DKDavid Kessler15:09

       Let it go. Let them off the hook. They're not your support. I tell people, "The issue isn't that they can't support you. The issue is you're going back to them after they're saying, 'I don't have the tools. I love you, but got no tools except move on.'" So, but there's other people out there, and you gotta be like a GPS and go, "Okay. All right. Not spouse, not spouse, not spouse," and switch over to someone else.

   28. MRMel Robbins15:38

       Hm. Do you have a name for the other types of grievers? You've talked about practical grievers. Do you have-

   29. DKDavid Kessler15:44

       Sometimes people call them feeling grievers, but I think that just sort of makes the others-

   30. MRMel Robbins15:48

       So it's sort of like practical grievers and everybody else.
3. 18:03 – 22:38

   There’s No Right Timeline for Grief

   1. MRMel Robbins18:03

      said, practical grievers. Like, "Okay."

   2. DKDavid Kessler18:05

      "Time to move on."

   3. MRMel Robbins18:07

      "Let..." Yeah, "Time to move on. Pull up your big girl-"

   4. DKDavid Kessler18:08

      Right.

   5. MRMel Robbins18:08

      "... pants or big boy pants, and let's move on."And so, you are sinking, but you're getting that message, "It's time to move on." Can you give us some of those subtle ways that you may feel judged because you're not able to rise up yet?

   6. DKDavid Kessler18:28

      And the problem is that outer judgment is contagious, and we also catch it. So what happens is people go, "Enough. Long enough. You gotta get back to life. The divorce, the death, it was this long ago. It's time. You are doing..." And here's no matter what they're saying, they are saying this, "You are doing it wrong."

   7. MRMel Robbins18:53

      Mm.

   8. DKDavid Kessler18:53

      "You are doing grief wrong." And one of the biggest things, I-I-I don't even do one-on-one support anymore. I do all group work 'cause I think we need to find other people. I mean, if you ha- can find other people who get it, great. If you can't get support... You know, sometimes people go, "Oh, I should just get through this." And I'm like, "I have a maintenance plan on my tires. Like, if my tires... I hit a pothole, I bought a maintenance plan." And like, somehow, we get to the hardest moments, and I tell people that. We don't get it, like, if you're going through loss, you're probably in one of the hardest moments of your life.

   9. MRMel Robbins19:41

      Hm.

   10. DKDavid Kessler19:41

       Get support. And if you don't have it around you, find it. I've got it. Other people have it. Find it. We find ourselves in each other's stories, and we find our healing in each other's stories. I'll tell you, if you were to listen in to my groups, you would hear me say a couple of things over and over. I'm constantly saying to people, "You're not crazy. You're in grief. You're not crazy. You're in grief." And the other thing I tell people is, "You're doing grief right." And people will say to me... Like, if I'm talking to a practical griever, they'll go, "Well, no, but they're not. They're staying at home. I can't tell them they're doing it right." And I'll go, "Well, you're telling them they're doing it wrong. How's that working? How does showering them with, 'You're doing it wrong,' is that really helping them get out of bed? Is that helping them enjoy life more, hearing, 'You're wrong'?" And the griever catches it. We, in our moments alone, go, "Maybe I am doing it wrong. Maybe, maybe I am stuck. Maybe I'm in trouble. Maybe this is it forever." And it doesn't have to be.

   11. MRMel Robbins21:04

       Yeah, I'm so glad you gave us that research that the average amount of time that passes before somebody seeks help is five years, because I would... I- I can, I can see, as you're laying this out, especially the difference between a practical griever, which is very helpful... And again, everybody grieves differently. Everybody's timeline is different.

   12. DKDavid Kessler21:26

       Our grief is unique as our fingerprint.

   13. MRMel Robbins21:28

       Our grief is as unique as our fingerprint, and so there's no... There's nothing wrong with being a practical griever.

   14. DKDavid Kessler21:35

       No.

   15. MRMel Robbins21:35

       It's your style of grieving.

   16. DKDavid Kessler21:36

       Correct.

   17. MRMel Robbins21:36

       But recognizing that's your style versus, "I'm more of a feeler. I'm somebody that needs to process this." I think it's a really beautiful-

   18. DKDavid Kessler21:45

       I need to talk about it.

   19. MRMel Robbins21:46

       "I need to talk about it."

   20. DKDavid Kessler21:47

       We're talkers.

   21. MRMel Robbins21:48

       Yes.

   22. DKDavid Kessler21:48

       I'll tell you, practical grievers are like, "Oh my God, enough with the talking. Like, stop with the talking."

   23. MRMel Robbins21:54

       (laughs)

   24. DKDavid Kessler21:55

       They're like, "It's too much."

   25. MRMel Robbins21:58

       Well, what I'm laughing about is-

   26. DKDavid Kessler22:00

       Well, we all have 'em. We know these people. That's all, you know-

   27. MRMel Robbins22:03

       Well, but, but here's the thing. As a deeply feeling person, I'm probably judgmental of people who are practical.

   28. DKDavid Kessler22:10

       As they are of you.

   29. MRMel Robbins22:11

       I also appreciate the door that you're opening, because one of the things, David, that really catches people off guard is how you can think that you're through it, but then, all of a sudden, grief comes out of nowhere. You know what I mean? Like, suddenly, you're crying in the grocery store, or it's a random Tuesday, and it's been years-

   30. DKDavid Kessler22:35

       Right.
4. 22:38 – 27:00

   How to Handle Sudden Waves of Grief

   1. MRMel Robbins22:38

      does grief ambush you like that?

   2. DKDavid Kessler22:40

      Let's talk about that. I call those grief bursts.

   3. MRMel Robbins22:43

      Grief bursts?

   4. DKDavid Kessler22:44

      Grief bursts. You're, you're at work. Things are fine. Something happens. You go there, it comes up, it overwhelms you. It's a grief burst. So I want to normalize that.

   5. MRMel Robbins22:56

      Okay.

   6. DKDavid Kessler22:56

      See, this is why we have to talk about all this, because people... Now, not only is there a grief burst. I want you to think about this. With anyone in my life, my son, I didn't just love my son like, "Mm, I love him." Oh my gosh, like anyone in our life, some days we're pissed at them. Some days, we really love them. Some days they touch our heart. Other days, not so much. Not only do we have grief bursts after someone dies, we have love bursts.

   7. MRMel Robbins23:24

      Hm.

   8. DKDavid Kessler23:24

      We just get filled with love. And both of those things are normal. And I think... You know, I mentioned the five-year mark, but I also want you to know, the second time people show up for support is after the one-year mark, thinking, "I thought this was gonna go away at a year. Isn't that what's supposed to happen?" Not true. I often think of early grief, and this is what people need to know, especially if you've got a friend out there and you're wondering when they're gonna get over this, I think of early grief as the first two years. Early grief is the first two years. Your friend that's taking too long is still in early grief.

   9. MRMel Robbins24:09

      Hm. I would say 99%...... of the people that wrote in, 18,000 emails-

   10. DKDavid Kessler24:19

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MRMel Robbins24:20

       ... are feeling guilt and pressure that you feel-

   12. DKDavid Kessler24:25

       Mm-hmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins24:26

       ... to move on.

   14. DKDavid Kessler24:28

       And then that becomes their self-judgment.

   15. MRMel Robbins24:29

       Yes.

   16. DKDavid Kessler24:30

       They're doing it wrong. And it's really important to hold true to yourself, and not to the people who are giving you advice. Listen, most people, when I'm talking to them, they'll go, "My sister, my brother, my person says it's time to move on." And I'll go, "Oh, and they did that in six months when their husband, wife, sister, brother, parent died?" And they go, "Oh, no, no. Their, their, their loved one's still alive." And I go, "Wait a minute. You're taking advice from someone whose loved one's alive that hasn't gone through what you're going through?" I tell people, "You've just become the grief expert, not them. Don't listen to someone who's never gone through it. Don't take that on. Trust yourself."

   17. MRMel Robbins25:27

       What is the number one thing you wish people knew about grief?

   18. DKDavid Kessler25:32

       Don't put it on a timeline. Get if off the timeline. I think the other thing is that grief just isn't being sad and crying in the corner. Grief is sometimes anger. Grief is sometimes just annoyance, challenges in life. You know, I often say, "There's so many different colors to grief. There's not, there's no one way to do it." In my group, every week, we take on a topic, jealousy, anger, some feeling, who would they be if they were still alive, all kinds of things, and tons of people share, and I purposely do that 'cause I want people to know there's not one voice in grief. Not even mine, not anyone. Like, there's 100 opinions, and we need to get so many different ways to do your grief.

   19. MRMel Robbins26:33

       Why do you think grief shows up in so many different ways and is so unpredictable, and are there ways that you can help yourself start to recognize, "Oh. This is the grief"? Like for example, I can think about somebody that may lose their spouse, and they're coming home from a long day at work, and you walk in the door, and it hits you

5. 27:00 – 31:55

   How to Ask for Support When You’re Grieving

   1. MRMel Robbins27:00

      it's just you. It's just you and the kids, and there's anger, and ups- and frustration, but a lot of times you probably think it's about the work day or the mess in front of you, and it's deeper than that because what you're really tapping into is the loss of your partner who's not there.

   2. DKDavid Kessler27:19

      I always say when people have had a spouse die, it's like being half a pair of scissors. It's like being half a pair of scissors. Now here's the thing. Sometimes, we make a mistake in our modern world and use toxic positivity. Your mom, whose spouse died, says, "It's brutal to sit across from that empty chair." Sometimes we think, "Oh, let's throw some spirituality at them."

   3. MRMel Robbins27:54

      (laughs)

   4. DKDavid Kessler27:54

      "Oh, Mom, Dad's always with you." And here's the thing. We miss them in that moment.

   5. MRMel Robbins28:02

      Mm-hmm.

   6. DKDavid Kessler28:03

      We miss them. Grief must be witnessed. And so our work, the harder work, is to say, "What's it like to sit across from that empty chair, Mom? Tell me what that feels like tonight. Talk to me about it." And here's the thing, for anyone supporting anyone in grief, what they say is gonna make you uncomfortable, and you're gonna want to fix them. I'm a fixer. Mel, give me three problems, I got solutions. I get to grief, and there's no fixing because no one's broken.

   7. MRMel Robbins28:42

      Hmm.

   8. DKDavid Kessler28:43

      And it's really important, this idea of just sitting with them. I just got back from Australia, and I was talking to a researcher who told me she goes to these small villages, and in the village, the night someone dies, everyone in the village has to change something in their house or in their yard. And the researcher said, "Why do you do that?" And they said, "Because when the family wakes up the next morning, we want them to know, now that your loved one has died, everything has changed."

   9. MRMel Robbins29:25

      Hmm.

   10. DKDavid Kessler29:26

       That's witnessing grief. Now that your spouse, your parent, your sibling, your child, your friend has died, all of us get everything's changed. And people say to me so many times, "I just want Mom back. I just want my friend back. I want Dad back." And I say, "They'd love to be that person they were before also. Here's the bad news. They can't be that person again. We'd have to bring someone back from the dead, and that's beyond our powers. So they've got to accept this different life that they're in. They're not the old them anymore, and you have to accept your friend, your family member, not the old them either. Be with them who they are now."... love them who they are now, right where they are. Even if you think they're doing it wrong, love them.

   11. MRMel Robbins30:30

       I love that image, half a pair of scissors.

   12. DKDavid Kessler30:34

       Mmm.

   13. MRMel Robbins30:36

       Is there a way that you think about the type of grief that a parent has when you experience the loss of a child?

   14. DKDavid Kessler30:44

       I think in our modern world, like I- I worked early in my career in children's hospital, I knew children died. The world used to be full of bereaved parents, every parent was a bereaved parent, you know, 100 years ago. Luckily, it doesn't happen as often, but it still does. And we don't understand the depth of that pain and the additional support they're gonna need. There's a lot of things that complicate it, it can be a sudden death, it could be death of a child, addiction, mental health issues. When it becomes complicated grief, it's gonna just take longer and you're gonna need more support.

   15. MRMel Robbins31:26

       Well, how do you know it's complicated grief, David?

   16. DKDavid Kessler31:29

       And... Here's how I think about it. Grief is like a river. The river of grief will take us to our healing. The river of grief, some of us step into it slowly as a loved one's really sick, some of us are thrown into it and we're drowning on a random Tuesday. But the river will take you to your healing. Imagine a little branch

6. 31:55 – 37:18

   What Complicated Grief Feels Like and When to Seek Support

   1. DKDavid Kessler31:55

      falling in the river. That little branch might slow the river down for a second, "I didn't tell Dad I loved him the day he died." Afterwards, you're like, "Okay, he knew. I told him a lot." But imagine a big branch falling in the river. If you've seen a big branch falling in a river-

   2. MRMel Robbins32:13

      Mm-hmm.

   3. DKDavid Kessler32:14

      ... the water begins to go in a circle.

   4. MRMel Robbins32:17

      Hmm.

   5. DKDavid Kessler32:17

      It's no longer evolving, it's revolving. Our grief is going in a circle, it's going nowhere. That's the complicated grief. I tell people, "It's a big branch, it fell in the river, it's slowing the grief down. We've just gotta get in there, examine it, be with it, talk about it."

   6. MRMel Robbins32:38

      What is the most important thing for somebody to do if they resonate with that description, whether it's a year out or five years out or 25 years out, that there's still something about that experience that is having them swirling? What's the most important first step to take, other than recognizing it?

   7. DKDavid Kessler33:00

      I would, first of all, tell them, "I maybe didn't get how brutal this is."

   8. MRMel Robbins33:09

      Hmm.

   9. DKDavid Kessler33:10

      "And I see you're still having such a hard time, and maybe I heard this podcast and I realized, of course you are, of course you're having a hard time. Wh- why was I thinking you would be over that in six months, like the TV show?" I would have that discussion with them, and almost apologize.

   10. MRMel Robbins33:32

       Hmm.

   11. DKDavid Kessler33:34

       I didn't recognize... You know, even the word bereaved comes from an old Latin word that means to be robbed. You've been robbed of your right arm, your left leg, and it's not coming back. And to say to that person, "Oh my gosh, I'm here with you in this. You don't have to be alone anymore. No matter how stuck I thought you were or you might think you are, whatever you are, you're not alone anymore."

   12. MRMel Robbins34:06

       Hmm.

   13. DKDavid Kessler34:07

       That will be magic. That will be magic. And I'll tell you one of the problems, we think this is about words. Everyone wants to find the right words.

   14. MRMel Robbins34:19

       What is it about if it's not about words and talking?

   15. DKDavid Kessler34:21

       It's about our presence. Here's the thing I want you to know, your presence is all that matters. Your presence is all that matters. Some of the most amazing work, I have a- a grief certificate program that I teach therapists and coaches and folks who want to turn their pain into purpose, and I bring some folks on to work with them. I'm giving this away, but it's amazing to see. I purposely bring someone on who's had a murder, a child die, spouse of 50 y- I mean, the worst, worst things you could imagine, child die, parents, both parents killed, I bring them on and I ask them to tell me about their loss. I say, "Tell me about your loss. Tell me about the person who died, and tell me a story about them. Tell me one of your favorite stories about them." That's it, and I sit there and I listen. For the rest of the time, I listen. And I gotta tell you, hundreds of people watching go, "Oh my gosh, that was amazing. How did you do it?" And I point out, "I didn't do anything. I listened. I listened." I didn't need to intervene, I didn't need to come up with reinterventions. I sat. It's the power of sitting. Like, there's a strange thing, this is a tough concept to get for ourselves and for others, this is not self-help, this is self-acceptance. And when we accept ourselves and our friends exactly where they are, then we change.

   16. MRMel Robbins36:12

       Mmm.

   17. DKDavid Kessler36:13

       That's the weird thing, we come into this going, "You've gotta change," and they resist. But if we go in and say, "If you're right here for the rest of the time, I'm gonna sit with you and you'll never be alone."

   18. MRMel Robbins36:24

       Mmm.

   19. DKDavid Kessler36:25

       And they say, "If this is it, I'll sit with it, it's okay."... then we begin to change. It's such a paradox. It's not doing, it's being.

   20. MRMel Robbins36:40

       I think a lot of the push to wanna get through it is you don't want to feel the pain, because a lot, a lot of times... Like, for example, David, for somebody who's experienced a loss, and they just can't stop crying, and they feel stuck in this raw sadness, and they can't even imagine what it's gonna feel like without the sadness that they feel right now. Because if you let go of the sadness-

   21. DKDavid Kessler37:08

       Mm. Mm.

   22. MRMel Robbins37:10

       ... you're letting go of the person that you lost.

   23. DKDavid Kessler37:13

       Yeah. All right, so a few things. Many times, I'll say to that

7. 37:18 – 46:02

   Allowing Joy Back Into Your Life After Loss

   1. DKDavid Kessler37:18

      person who says to me, "You don't get it, I'll never stop crying," I'll say, "I've been with thousands, hundreds, millions, I don't even know how many, everyone stops crying. Everyone stops crying. They may cry again, but everyone stops." Now, this idea that we think... 'Cause sometimes I'll work with vets who tell me, "You know, this pain of my, you know, best friend dying in war," or whatever it is, "you know, is a badge of honor." I'll go, "Yeah, pain's not a badge of honor, love is." So I say to people when they say, "I need to hold onto the pain or I'll lose them," I say to them, "Let me tell you this. When you release the pain, in your own way, in your own time, you will be connected only in love. When you release the pain, the love will be there." I wanna tell you a story around this. In the pandemic, maybe week two, a friend of mine, practical griever, comes over. We're gonna take a walk, six feet apart, in the middle of the street. We're walking. A young woman walks up to me, probably 20 years old, in tears, one of my neighbors, and she goes, "Aren't y- aren't you the grief person?"

   2. MRMel Robbins38:57

      (laughs)

   3. DKDavid Kessler38:57

      And I went, "Yeah." And she goes, "My wedding's just been postponed," and she's in tears, and she said, "I don't know how I'm gonna make it." And she's crying, and she's devastated. And I talked to her, and I listened, and I talked about it. And after a few minutes, after we talked, she thanked me, and she said, "Can we talk again?" And I said, "Sure." My friend turns to me, and said, "Oh my gosh, I can't believe how she was going on and on to you. I mean, you've been to shootings, and 9/11, and your son died, and here, her wedding's been postponed." And I said to my friend, "You know so little about grief." First of all-

   4. MRMel Robbins39:38

      Hmm.

   5. DKDavid Kessler39:39

      ... whenever you compare, we are in our mind. And we don't have a broken mind, we have a broken heart. So first of all, let go of the comparing. People wanna know, "David, which grief is the worst? Is it a murder? Is it a child's death? Is it a divorce where they're alive rejecting you every day on the planet? Is it sexual abuse that robs you of a life, it feels like? What's the worst grief?" And I always say, "Yours. Yours is the worst grief. Other people's grief don't matter." Now, here's what goes wrong. People think grief is like a pie. "I have my pie of grief, and all of a sudden, the 20-year-old whose wedding's postponed is taking a piece of my pie." No. There's room in this world for all our losses. Here's a tough thing that I work with therapists on a lot, and coaches, people who run bereavement groups. Let's say in a bereavement group, there's a woman there, her fiance died after three months-

   6. MRMel Robbins41:00

      Yeah.

   7. DKDavid Kessler41:00

      ... and there's someone else who's been married for 40 years. She says to woman who had three months, "Oh my gosh, your grief is nothing. Three months is nothing. Try 50 years." The top line, I would say, is we don't compare griefs, there's enough room, blah, blah, blah, blah. I give her that speech. We're not gonna judge each other's grief in this group. Hopefully I've said that at the beginning. But what I want therapists, coaches, and friends to know, the person who's saying, "Hey, they, they're getting too much" is really saying, "My grief hasn't been witnessed enough."

   8. MRMel Robbins41:39

      Oh.

   9. DKDavid Kessler41:40

      We gotta go, the person who's complaining that someone else is getting too much attention or doing too well is saying to us, "I'm still in need, and you're missing me."

   10. MRMel Robbins41:52

       Hmm.

   11. DKDavid Kessler41:53

       And that's the thing that, like, if you don't have the grief training, therapists, coaches, all of us can easily miss.

   12. MRMel Robbins41:59

       Let's talk about denial.

   13. DKDavid Kessler42:00

       Hmm.

   14. MRMel Robbins42:01

       So for the person-

   15. DKDavid Kessler42:03

       I love denial, by the way.

   16. MRMel Robbins42:04

       Why do you love denial?

   17. DKDavid Kessler42:06

       What a grace. What a gift the universe has given us. Here's the thing, Mel. When someone dies, there's a divorce, a tragedy, your psyche couldn't take the pain in in one day. You would be down and never get up again. There's a grace in denial. Denial helps us pace the feelings over time.

   18. MRMel Robbins42:34

       Hmm.

   19. DKDavid Kessler42:35

       When someone says, "My loved one's in denial," I go, "Thank goodness."... thank goodness, wow, your psyche's working. When someone says, "I'm numb. I'm stuck." I go, "Ugh, what an amazing, wise mind you have that your psyche is titrating these feelings." It knows not to give you too much. It's brilliant. Denial's amazing.

   20. MRMel Robbins43:05

       Is there too long of a period to be in denial?

   21. DKDavid Kessler43:10

       I think your psyche knows that.

   22. MRMel Robbins43:12

       Hmm.

   23. DKDavid Kessler43:12

       And I'll tell you, sometimes people show up with a lot of shame. We even have a group just for older losses. People will show up at the 5, 10, 20-year point, ready to deal with something with shame and regret that they didn't deal with it, and I will say to them, "You're ready now. It's perfect."

   24. MRMel Robbins43:31

       Hmm.

   25. DKDavid Kessler43:31

       'Cause sometimes we can shame those people and go, "That's what happen when you go into denial. Learn that le-" No. You're ready now.

   26. MRMel Robbins43:39

       Hmm.

   27. DKDavid Kessler43:39

       Good for you. It's time.

   28. MRMel Robbins43:41

       Oh, I love that.

   29. DKDavid Kessler43:42

       It's time. You're strong enough.

   30. MRMel Robbins43:46

       I love that. I love that. You're ready now.
8. 46:02 – 1:00:58

   How to Find Meaning After Loss

   1. MRMel Robbins46:02

      reason.

   2. DKDavid Kessler46:02

      Yeah.

   3. MRMel Robbins46:02

      I don't believe that.

   4. DKDavid Kessler46:03

      You know what? Someone said that to me after my son died, "Everything happened for a reason." I went, "Yeah, what do you got?"

   5. MRMel Robbins46:08

      Well-

   6. DKDavid Kessler46:08

      "I could use a good reason. What do you got?"

   7. MRMel Robbins46:10

      Well, I think the mistake with that phrase is things happen, and you choose whether you find a reason to go on. You choose whether you find a reason to learn from this. You choose whether or not to find some meaning from this experience. Not meaning in the death, but a reason to lean into life and love again.

   8. DKDavid Kessler46:42

      Here's the thing that I really got. I remember, maybe at a year, sitting in pain, going, "Oof, I don't know about this one." And I thought about... I live in a little neighborhood, in a li- all these little cute houses.

   9. MRMel Robbins47:01

      (laughs)

   10. DKDavid Kessler47:01

       And I thought about 20, 30, 40 years in the future, the teenagers would be riding their bike and they'd go, "Hey, what's that house there with the spiderwebs? Is it a haunted house?" And they would go, "Oh, that broken down, dilapidated house? It's a grief expert whose son died-"

   11. MRMel Robbins47:24

       (laughs)

   12. DKDavid Kessler47:25

       "... and he never came out again." Mel, I could find that in me. I could find, "I could lock the door and never come out again." And I'll tell you, I'm not the only one that feels that way, and I had to really understand, it is a decision.

   13. MRMel Robbins47:47

       Hmm.

   14. DKDavid Kessler47:48

       And meaning helped me get to that decision.

   15. MRMel Robbins47:52

       But not meaning in the death. What are you finding meaning in?

   16. DKDavid Kessler47:55

       Not m- Oh, that's one of the first things I learned when I was researching this book, is that the meaning is not in the horrible event. There's no meaning in a child's death, a spouse death, a parent death, a tragedy. There's no meaning in all these losses. Meaning is after we excavate the pain, and I wanna underline that. After we excavate the pain, the meaning is revealed underneath. And it's in us. It's who we become. Th- this is really about finding your way through that darkness.

   17. MRMel Robbins48:30

       Well, and it's like the, that saying, "Everything happens for a reason."

   18. DKDavid Kessler48:33

       Yeah.

   19. MRMel Robbins48:33

       Sometimes th- the reason why something happens is you're unlucky, you were in the wrong place, i- life's unfair. But what that actually is saying to you is you get to choose...... the reason why you move forward. You get to choose the reasons why you grow. It's like-

   20. DKDavid Kessler48:52

       Correct.

   21. MRMel Robbins48:52

       ... the after.

   22. DKDavid Kessler48:54

       And there's one thing I'd love to just tell you here that I think is so important in this. One of the things I say about meaning is, "Your loss is not a test, a lesson, something to handle, a gift, or a blessing. Loss is what happens in life."

   23. MRMel Robbins49:15

       Hmm.

   24. DKDavid Kessler49:16

       "Meaning is what you make happen after the loss, after the pain."

   25. MRMel Robbins49:23

       After your son died, uh, you said that acceptance, not enough.

   26. DKDavid Kessler49:28

       Pfft. How much do we hate acceptance?

   27. MRMel Robbins49:31

       (laughs) .

   28. DKDavid Kessler49:31

       I mean, when we tell people in grief, "You've got to accept it," first of all, there's not one acceptance. It's not like, "It was in the top drawer, I looked everywhere but the..." No. There's a million acceptances. Over the years, you're gonna have to keep accepting it. And I think people think acceptance means you like it-

   29. MRMel Robbins49:53

       Hmm.

   30. DKDavid Kessler49:53

       ... or you're okay with it, but it really just means you acknowledge the reality of it. You-
9. 1:00:58 – 1:03:11

   Anger in Grief: Healthy Ways to Cope and Express What You Feel

   1. MRMel Robbins1:00:58

   2. DKDavid Kessler1:00:58

      When I get angry, people are like, "And you, get that handled, and then we'll talk to you."

   3. MRMel Robbins1:01:03

      (laughs)

   4. DKDavid Kessler1:01:04

      Everyone treats you like a porcupine, right?

   5. MRMel Robbins1:01:07

      (laughs) Yes.

   6. DKDavid Kessler1:01:08

      And you're in as much pain. The thing we have to do is make that translation. It looks like they're in rage, but they're actually in pain.

   7. MRMel Robbins1:01:25

      Mm.

   8. DKDavid Kessler1:01:27

      And if I can try to hug the porcupine, which is a hard thing to do, but I can tell you as the porcupine, I need a hug as much as anyone, even though I'm like, "Back, everyone," I still need a hug in that moment. I will melt if you give me a hug in that moment. Now, here's what goes wrong. So many of us have old wounds and trauma-

   9. MRMel Robbins1:01:55

      Yes.

   10. DKDavid Kessler1:01:55

       ... from unhealthy anger, that we don't know how to find healthy anger. And anger in grief is the healthy anger that we need to express.

   11. MRMel Robbins1:02:06

       What's a healthy way to express it?

   12. DKDavid Kessler1:02:09

       Hit a pillow, scream in your car, exercise and run, you know, whatever it takes. You need to get it out. Grief yoga, you know, people don't know about that.

   13. MRMel Robbins1:02:20

       What is it?

   14. DKDavid Kessler1:02:21

       Grief yoga is, literally, Paul Denniston does grief yoga. A- and it is, he created it, it is around not the, he says, not the pretzel yoga, but it is around the feelings that get stuck in our grief-

   15. MRMel Robbins1:02:36

       Hm.

   16. DKDavid Kessler1:02:36

       ... finding ways to get them out and move. 'Cause here's what he says, "Our emotions need motion."

   17. MRMel Robbins1:02:43

       Hm.

   18. DKDavid Kessler1:02:44

       Go take a walk with your anger. Let it out. Let it go through.

   19. MRMel Robbins1:02:53

       You know, one of the things that I think about is that when my husband's dad died, it was due to complications of a surgery that they rushed to have.

   20. DKDavid Kessler1:03:03

       Mm.

   21. MRMel Robbins1:03:03

       And in the aftermath of his death, there were so many what-ifs, "We should've gotten a second opinion,

10. 1:03:11 – 1:07:36

    What Is the Bargaining Stage of Grief?

    1. MRMel Robbins1:03:11

       you know, if only. If only they didn't get behind the wheel, if only I had picked up the phone call, if only, you know, they hadn't gotten in the car, on the plane," whatever. How do you get out of that stage where you're bargaining with the past because the present is so painful to accept? I mean, and this was almost 20 years ago.

    2. DKDavid Kessler1:03:40

       Right.

    3. MRMel Robbins1:03:41

       And I know my husband, who is a death doula-

    4. DKDavid Kessler1:03:45

       Ah.

    5. MRMel Robbins1:03:45

       ... who has volunteered with hospice-

    6. DKDavid Kessler1:03:47

       Right.

    7. MRMel Robbins1:03:47

       ... for over a decade, who counsels people as a death doula, I know there's still in the back of his mind, "If only I'd gotten a second opinion."

    8. DKDavid Kessler1:04:00

       Okay. Here's what I would say, a few things. Guilt is grief's companion. Guilt is right on that road with grief often, and here's what people don't understand. Our mind would always rather feel guilty than helpless.

    9. MRMel Robbins1:04:27

       Explain that. Guil- you'd rather feel guilty-

    10. DKDavid Kessler1:04:29

        Guilty-

    11. MRMel Robbins1:04:29

        ... than helpless?

    12. DKDavid Kessler1:04:30

        ... than helpless.

    13. MRMel Robbins1:04:30

        So guilt, even though it's not great to feel it, feels a little better than feeling completely helpless?

    14. DKDavid Kessler1:04:37

        I got some control. Oh, my gosh.

    15. MRMel Robbins1:04:39

        Oh.

    16. DKDavid Kessler1:04:39

        Here's my control. Second opinions are the key. So I'm just making this up for your husband, I don't know him or anything. But it becomes like, "As long as I know to get second opinions for the rest of my life, I'm keeping everyone safe."

    17. MRMel Robbins1:04:53

        That makes so much sense. Because otherwise-

    18. DKDavid Kessler1:04:56

        We live in a world where, "Oh, my God-"

    19. MRMel Robbins1:04:57

        ... anything can happen.

    20. DKDavid Kessler1:04:58

        "... anyone can die."

    21. MRMel Robbins1:04:58

        And we do.

    22. DKDavid Kessler1:04:59

        So guilt is that false control that we need for our survival. And here's what I have people do. I go through all the what-ifs, and I have people write down, "What if we'd gotten a second opinion? If only we had seen another..." All those what-ifs. After I have them list the what-ifs-and-if-onlys, give it space, let it breathe, talk about them. I'm not gonna... You know, people go, "Don't talk that way. You can't bring your dad back." Shut up. Let me talk. People talk, I listen, we go through the what-ifs, I give them their due, then I have them cross out the what if and go, "Even if."

    23. MRMel Robbins1:05:46

        Hm.

    24. DKDavid Kessler1:05:47

        "Even if Dad got a second opinion, he would've died." Even if. That's the reality. Now, if I was talking to your husband, I would especially say this knowing he's a death doula. I would say to him, "I worked for over a decade in a hospital system. We had, in the hospital system, we had the person that would show up early for the appointment, they would research everything, they would get second opinions, they would do everything right, Mel, and they would still die. How unfair. And then we'd have someone else-

    25. MRMel Robbins1:06:35

        Hm.

    26. DKDavid Kessler1:06:35

        ... they wouldn't show up for their appointment, they wouldn't take the medicine, they wouldn't do the therapy, they wouldn't do the, the procedure, and we couldn't kill them." Part of this is out of our control.

    27. MRMel Robbins1:06:47

        So much of it is.

    28. DKDavid Kessler1:06:49

        So much. Well, life and death, for sure. And in that guilt, we think we have control. And I'll say to people, "Well, what are you gonna do? Like, if you stood outside a hospital and said, 'Everyone, second opinion, second opinion.' "... do you think there'd be no more deaths in that hospital? No. People would still die.

    29. MRMel Robbins1:07:08

        You know, if your, um, if someone that you love is grieving, how do you help them?

    30. DKDavid Kessler1:07:16

        I think of the threes. Show up at three days, show up at three weeks, show up at three months. Just show up. And a lot of times, we ask the person in grief, "What do you need?" "Oh my gosh, I'm barely breathing and

11. 1:07:36 – 1:25:58

    How to Support Someone Who Is Grieving

    1. DKDavid Kessler1:07:36

       you want a list of needs? I don't know what I need." We know what they need. They need food, they need their car taken in, they need groceries, they need the kids to get to soccer. Like, use your imagination. You know what they need. One of the things that I remember, I just, it touched my heart. After my son died, there was probably, I don't know, three weeks later, I was hungry. There was no food. I opened up the freezer, and there was a frozen lasagna in there that I could see the brand, that it's not a brand that anywhere near me. And I thought, "Someone had the wherewithal to slip that in my freezer knowing this night would come." How amazing. Show up. Two things.

    2. MRMel Robbins1:08:33

       What are the things you should never say to somebody who's grieving?

    3. DKDavid Kessler1:08:38

       Well, we've talked about a few. At least. There's a reason for this. Um, they're in a better place. Now, context is everything. If you're talking to your clergy, I actually want my clergy to say, "Maybe they're in a better place." I get it.

    4. MRMel Robbins1:08:52

       (laughs)

    5. DKDavid Kessler1:08:53

       I don't want other people to say it because I would go, "The better place is here with me now." I don't want to hear about another place. I don't want to hear, "God needed another angel." What's this God that's got a sh- angel shortage? I don't want to hear that.

    6. MRMel Robbins1:09:11

       (laughs)

    7. DKDavid Kessler1:09:11

       That's crazy.

    8. MRMel Robbins1:09:12

       What should you say instead?

    9. DKDavid Kessler1:09:15

       I don't have the words. I don't know what to say. I don't even know that there are right words. I don't know what your path is gonna be like, but you're not gonna walk it alone. I'm gonna be here with you. I'm gonna be here with you. Angry? Be angry. Sad? Be sad. Stuck? Be stuck. I'm here with you.

    10. MRMel Robbins1:09:37

        You have this practice, David, called a living amends contract. Will you walk me through it and just explain why it works?

    11. DKDavid Kessler1:09:46

        Sure. And living amends have been around for a long time. Living amends is this idea that sometimes, the person's not here to make an apology to. So for example, maybe my loved one died and our last words were an argument.

    12. MRMel Robbins1:10:08

        Hm.

    13. DKDavid Kessler1:10:09

        Maybe I didn't tell them I love them that day. So, I always say, "If you still have something to say in your heart, if you say it purely in your heart, they'll hear it in theirs." And a living amends is you literally write down, and I have it in here, people can find it online, "I apologize for not saying I love you at the end. My living amends to you is, for the rest of my life, when I make a mistake, I'm going to apologize quickly in your honor."

    14. MRMel Robbins1:10:48

        Hm.

    15. DKDavid Kessler1:10:49

        "And it's gonna be my living, breathing apology." We died and my last words were an argument? Oh my gosh. My living amends is gonna be for the rest of my life. I will never leave an argument like that again with anyone, and every time I'm in an argument, I will do my best to at least end it with kindness and love, even if we disagree, and that's my living, breathing apology to you.

    16. MRMel Robbins1:11:20

        Uh, a lot of people writing in talked about this lingering feeling of guilt...

    17. DKDavid Kessler1:11:26

        Mm-hmm.

    18. MRMel Robbins1:11:27

        ... for laughing or starting to date again-

    19. DKDavid Kessler1:11:31

        Oh.

    20. MRMel Robbins1:11:31

        ... or falling in love, or even just catching yourself enjoying a normal day, because it feels like in order to move on, right, you're letting go of the person that you love.

    21. DKDavid Kessler1:11:48

        I have a disloyalty checklist I walk people through 'cause it's things like that.

    22. MRMel Robbins1:11:52

        Wh- what's a disloyalty checklist? What does that mean?

    23. DKDavid Kessler1:11:54

        It's, it's literally things like you said. Here's a disloyalty checklist. You find yourself laughing, having fun, feeling guilty for making a big decision, trying something new, doing something for yourself, making a new friend. Like, people feel disloyal about these things. Saying goodbye to the person's clothes, accepting an invitation, changing something about yourself or where you lived, changing, um, uh, something about the trips you take, skipping a tradition, moving. There's a... Forgetting a birthday. There's a million little disloyal moments, and they interrupt the pure grief because we think it's about disloyalty. And the truth is, disloyalty doesn't live in the heart, it lives in the mind. And if we can release that and go... I'll tell you something that was one of my disloyalties. I had to cancel a lot of lectures after my son died.I had to then go back and pick them up months later, and didn't know how I would do that. We sent out the same brochure that was originally sent, new dates, blah, blah, blah. And people wrote in and said, "He's smiling. I happened to know his son died, and you sent me a brochure with him smiling." And I had to go, "Oh my gosh. I get that's an old picture, but should I not smile? Does that look bad?" And I had to go, "Disloyalty belief, not true. Did my son, David, dislike my smile? No, he loved my smile. Would he want me to never smile again in his honor? Absolutely not. I need to release that disloyalty."

    24. MRMel Robbins1:13:59

        Mm-hmm.

    25. DKDavid Kessler1:14:00

        It doesn't serve those we di- who have died, and it doesn't serve us. Disloyalty serves no one and gets in the way of healing.

    26. MRMel Robbins1:14:11

        You know, if you are left with a mess in the wake of a loss, whether it's the bills, the paperwork, the family tension that can happen in death, and in divorce, and number of other things that create grief for us, what can someone do if you're the one having to deal with this mess now?

    27. DKDavid Kessler1:14:39

        Number one, this is a moment when all your friends are saying, "Let us know if you need anything," to go, "I do."

    28. MRMel Robbins1:14:46

        (laughs)

    29. DKDavid Kessler1:14:47

        "Hey, who's good with bills? Hey, who's good with..." To, to... "I need you. I have grief brain." People don't realize grief brain is real.

    30. MRMel Robbins1:14:54

        What is grief brain?

Episode duration: 1:25:58