4 Men Share How They Hit Rock Bottom (and got out) - Dr K, Joe Hudson & Connor Beaton

1. 0:00 – 11:33

   How Can Men Actually Win the Game?

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      People of the UK and Ireland, I'm coming to you live. Imagine that, me on stage in your city. Dublin is completely sold out, but everywhere else has got limited tickets left, and you can get yours now at chriswilliamson.live. This is a custom-built live show. I absolutely adore it. I've spent over a year working on it. So if you're a fan of everything Modern Wisdom, come and see me on stage this October around the UK and Ireland, chriswilliamson.live. This is kind of like my Super Bowl. I hope the people that are watching realize just how much heat is in the room because between you guys, you've been the basically top coaches or the SOS call to some of the best athletes, biggest musicians, CEOs in the world, uh, plus probably a few tens of millions of normal people as well. It's a real Avengers Assemble of personal growth. So thank you for being here. This is awesome. I've been looking forward to this. So there's a, an idea from Naval Ravikant where he says, "The reason to win the game is to be free of it." So I want you to talk about how people, especially men, can win the game. Let's say that I'm someone who wants to maximize everything, achieve as much as possible, pull all of the ambition out of myself that I can. I wanna wrangle every bit of motivation, discipline, raw masculine crush the world energy that I can. How do you guys come to even think about that? How should I achieve that?

   2. KDr. K1:16

      Well, okay.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:17

      Yeah. [laughs]

   4. KDr. K1:17

      Let's go. Y'all are looking at me. Um, yeah, so- so, you know, I was- I was... Yesterday you, you brought up this kind of idea that okay, you, like, climb to the top of the mountain.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:27

      Mm-hmm.

   6. KDr. K1:28

      And then you kinda have to go back down.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:30

      Mm-hmm.

   8. KDr. K1:30

      Right? And so I, I'm sure that, um, Joe and Connor probably have experienced all the same things. So there's like a... There's one set of challenges when you're nothing in life, and then as you go through the process of becoming something, you arrive at a different set of challenges. So, you know, I, I work with so many people who have difficulty finding a partner because they're a nobody, and then once they become a somebody, then they have difficulty finding a partner who wants them as opposed to what they've become.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:01

      Yeah.

   10. KDr. K2:02

       So I think it's a really good framing. Um, and, and my kind of overall take is actually like... So, so it's sort of a... So there are things that we do that are adaptive, and then they become maladaptive.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. KDr. K2:15

       So that- that's the process of growing up. One of my mentors once told me growing up is abandoning what works over and over and over again because it worked back then, and unless you get rid of it, you're gonna run into trou- trouble.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:28

       Hmm.

   14. KDr. K2:29

       And I think the interesting thing about this framing of, like, climbing to the top of the mountain and then kind of having this different set of challenges is I think there's actually just one trajectory. The problem is that when we focus on certain things, right? So when we focus on willpower and, and, uh, discipline and all this kind of stuff, it actually creates problems in the future. So, so I, I think that there is a way when you kinda say, like, tunneling through the bottom, you know, like you can, you can kinda bypass it all. But what I... So what I've kind of found is that there is a set of things that you can do to become materially very successful.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:03

       Mm-hmm.

   16. KDr. K3:03

       But usually doing those things-

   17. CWChris Williamson3:06

       There we go

   18. KDr. K3:06

       ... yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson3:06

       Trying to win the game. Like, the guy at the bottom doing nothing. Guy at the top won something. Guy at the bottom transcended the game and then fuck the game through the middle.

   20. KDr. K3:16

       Yeah. So I'd say, I'd actually say that there's, there's... Fuck the game is, is upward.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:21

       [laughs]

   22. CBConnor Beaton3:21

       [laughs]

   23. KDr. K3:22

       So, so my, uh... 'Cause I, I think that th- this is somewhat true. Like, so I, I, I'm sure these guys do too. I mean, I know they do. But, you know, if you work with some very successful people, they have different challenges.

   24. CWChris Williamson3:33

       Mm-hmm.

   25. KDr. K3:33

       They, they don't, they're not necessarily peace- uh, peaceful. They're not necessarily contented. And then we, we think about this thing like, okay, if I don't have ambition, then how am I going to achieve? But then if you use ambition to achieve, then you're stuck with this programming which is ambition oriented.

   26. CWChris Williamson3:52

       Yes.

   27. KDr. K3:52

       And then you move the goalposts, and then you want more, and then you want more, and it's never enough. And so I think, like, like, my take on this, and I, I'd love to hear what y'all think, is like, yeah, this sort of works, but as we know, there's a problem that you end up with at the top that you then have to solve.

   28. CWChris Williamson4:08

       Hmm.

   29. KDr. K4:09

       And I actually think, uh, fuck the game is the way to go. Like, that, that, that that's... There, there's one basic way, and a simple example of this is people think that contentment is something that you get from the outside. Like, I'm hungry, I eat something, and then I'm content. But there's piles of spirituality which have now been supported by piles of neuroscience that contentment itself is a cultivatable skill.

   30. CWChris Williamson4:33

       Hmm.
2. 11:33 – 25:02

   Do We Choose When We Hit Rock Bottom?

   1. CWChris Williamson11:33

      I mean, how many, how many guys use that rock bottom moment to either be crushed by it or propelled by it? I have to assume that a lot of you guys have been on the receiving end or maybe been the men yourselves that get the call, the SOS call of like, "Okay, this is, like, this is it. This is me peering over the abyss moment. Uh, what the fuck do I do? Like, I don't even know how to get started." So yeah, I, I think both of those things.

   2. JHJoe Hudson11:56

      That's the most exciting moment.

   3. KDr. K11:58

      Yeah, I was, I was gonna-- Uh, so, so it's so interesting 'cause- I hear my thoughts coming out in two different ways.

   4. CBConnor Beaton12:05

      Hmm.

   5. JHJoe Hudson12:05

      Yeah.

   6. KDr. K12:06

      So, so, you know, one of the things that's really scary is, is, I mean, I, I work with some people who are pretty successful, but 60% of people that I've worked with have not been able to afford a dime. And, and so I work with a lot of, like, regular, like, basically losers, and I, I own that term. It used to be what I was, arguably still am. And one of the scary things I hear about these stories, right? So I think all three of us, there's the spiritual hell, there's the hitting rock bottom, failing out of college. Take, take your pick. One of the scary things is-

   7. JHJoe Hudson12:39

      Love Island.

   8. KDr. K12:40

      [laughs]

   9. CBConnor Beaton12:40

      [laughs]

   10. JHJoe Hudson12:40

       [laughs]

   11. KDr. K12:40

       Were you on Love Island, no?

   12. CBConnor Beaton12:42

       You win.

   13. JHJoe Hudson12:42

       Yeah.

   14. KDr. K12:42

       Wait, really?

   15. JHJoe Hudson12:43

       You won.

   16. CBConnor Beaton12:44

       You didn't know this?

   17. KDr. K12:44

       I didn't know this.

   18. JHJoe Hudson12:45

       Oh, God, I've derailed everything.

   19. CBConnor Beaton12:46

       Chris, you gotta play the sun card.

   20. JHJoe Hudson12:47

       Season one-

   21. CBConnor Beaton12:48

       You're reversing, you know, right out the gates.

   22. JHJoe Hudson12:50

       Yep. Islander One, season one, first person through the door.

   23. CBConnor Beaton12:52

       I think, I think, I think we should at some point in this conversation really just actually try to have the competition for, like, the lowest low between the four of us.

   24. KDr. K12:59

       I, I was just thinking, I, I-

   25. CBConnor Beaton13:00

       [laughs]

   26. JHJoe Hudson13:01

       [laughs]

   27. KDr. K13:01

       I would, I would l- I would love to hear everybody's stories.

   28. JHJoe Hudson13:06

       Let's do that.

   29. KDr. K13:06

       Like, I mean, I know them.

   30. JHJoe Hudson13:07

       Let's do, let's, let's, well y- if, if everyone's comfortable, I'm happy to fucking play that.
3. 25:02 – 33:53

   Was Love Island Chris’ Rock Bottom?

   1. JHJoe Hudson25:02

      cool.

   2. CWChris Williamson25:02

      Does anyone wanna throw a rock bottom story into the mix? I don't know whether anyone's got theirs that they'd like-

   3. JHJoe Hudson25:08

      Love Island, bro. Let's go. [laughs]

   4. CWChris Williamson25:10

      [laughs] Hey, look, I could give-

   5. JHJoe Hudson25:11

      Or, or peaking.

   6. CWChris Williamson25:12

      I can give-

   7. JHJoe Hudson25:12

      Was that peaking?

   8. CWChris Williamson25:13

      Uh, no. Absolutely not peaking. I can certainly give you the pe- I, I guess, like, w- the Love Island rock bottom story, at least that one, which was, uh, uh, it's kind of the Champions League World Cup final, right? Of being a professional party boy, especially in the UK, which is very small, and the ways that you can-

   9. JHJoe Hudson25:32

      [laughs]

   10. CWChris Williamson25:32

       ... extricate yourself from this highly dense, very competitive, very classist system are limited. You know, uh, the US is 4% of the world's population, but produces 50% of its millionaires last year, right? The UK is not even on the, the league. Um, so I go and do this thing. I have this opportunity to go and, like, be the guy finally. Like, and it was, it wa- even the way that I got on was done in the way that the rest of my life was constructed, which was I'd already done one thing previously, made myself very useful to the casting producers that were a part of ITV, generally the company at Channel 3 in the UK that was producing the show, and I'd helped them. They'd-- I'd found them new people for other shows that they were going on. I'd advised them all of the different nightclubs to go to. They wanted Geordies, they wanted Newcastle kids because it was a big show. Our equivalent of Jersey Shore was ripping at that time. So I'm, like, finding them all, like, cool people 'cause I know everybody that parties around town. So I know the most degenerate or the most outgoing or the clubbers or the whatever. So I've done all of this stuff, and then it's my-- they're like, "Hey, we're gonna give-- Do you wanna come and screen test for this thing? Just come and see me. Come and hang out. We haven't talked for ages. Why don't you just come and do the thing?" And before I knew it, I'm, like, on a plane on my way to fucking Palma, Mallorca with a chaperone, and I do this thing. I have this experience surrounded by people that were the person I thought I was. I thought I was this very extroverted lad around town, party boy, biggest name on campus, be knock, biggest name on campus guy. And the thing when you go and do a show like that is because it's filmed 24 hours a day, what is captured up until 2:00 AM gets produced and published, uh, and broadcast at 7:00 PM the next night, and it's just this permanent treadmill of constant, like, ambient surveillance. But there's no distraction. There's no phone, there's no TV, there's no YouTube, there's no books, there's no friends, there's no nothing.

   11. JHJoe Hudson27:19

       Hmm.

   12. CWChris Williamson27:20

       So it is, uh, what I later sort of came to reflect on as a fatal dose of contrast. It was me coming up against the projection of me embodied in 11 other people that were living in the house with me. And there's half the number of beds as there are people, so you sleep with a different girl every night, or you sleep with the same girl all of the time. Uh, and then I left. And, uh, it was a surprise eviction that they were doing to, like, spice things up or whatever. So you didn't have the time to sort of say your goodbyes that maybe some of the other guys did. So it's kind of a little bit of a chaotic situation. And I don't know whether you guys know, but the south coast of Mallorca, which is where Palma is, is one of the best night sky viewing spots in the world. It's got one of the clearest skies that you can. And we finish up, and we get taken off to this couples hotel, like a Sandals Resort type thing, which is where they must have just been able to find some lodging to, like, ship the people out. So you still can't be seen by the press, you can't be seen by anyone, so you're completely contained in this whole thing. And it's been this whirlwind trip, and I've, like, lived it. I had this media lockdown week for a week before I went in, and then I've been on TV and, like, I read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho, so I was in a fucking, like, psychedelic fugue state for the entirety of the time that I was on there. It's a bad idea. A piece of advice to anyone going on reality TV: Do not read The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho before you go on.

   13. JHJoe Hudson28:36

       [laughs]

   14. KDr. K28:36

       I, I think that's the best advice-

   15. JHJoe Hudson28:37

       Yeah, like

   16. KDr. K28:37

       ... most applicable advice that anyone's gonna get.

   17. CWChris Williamson28:39

       'Cause I'm, I'm in, bro, 'cause I'm in fucking-

   18. KDr. K28:42

       Yeah

   19. CWChris Williamson28:42

       ... like, south coast of Spain, and I'm thinking to myself, "I'm like s- like, uh, Santiago." I'm just like, I'm in, I'm in Spain, and I'm taking my shepherd, and I'm on this trip, and I'm seeing the sunrise and set, and I've got no distraction. I'm, like, just, like, swimming in the first book I've read fully for something that wasn't university in, like, a decade and, like, that was all of... It, it was very chaotic. Anyway, so I get shipped away and taken off with more of a chaperone. We get deposited at this couples hotel, and we're given a... We, we had a, a drink limit because they realized that people would get way too Larry and it would be kind of messy, and that they wanted more of a fluffy, family-friendly kind of show. So they didn't want people to be pissed and, like, fighting and stuff like that. Uh, and I'm given-- We had, we had stubby beers, like 330 mil, smaller than a Neutonic. 330 mil beers for the entirety of the time that we were there, and I got out and I was given a 500 mil beer. And, like, you spend the whole day in the sun, there is a bit of you that's, especially if you're around, like, chicks in bikinis, you're like, "Fucking give me a beer, dude." You know? I don't even smoke, but I was like, "I'll rip a cig." Like, it just isn't the... I don't know. There's some primal part of you that's like, "Oh, he's gonna do stuff." Um, so I get a tall beer, and finally, for the first time in over a month now, including the media lockdown, I'm on my own. And I have this moment of no surveillance, no microphone around my neck, which you needed to put on even if you were going to the bathroom in case you said something interesting or whatever. No surveillance and no one with me. And I, like, sort of dumped all my stuff into this room and walked out and looked up at the sky, and I've never seen it before, and I hope that I get to see it again. The full Milky Way galaxy just stre- Like, someone had taken luminescent glitter and thrown it across the sky from end to fucking end because this sort of couples hotel is middle of nowhere with lights all turned off at night and sort of huts and all that you can hear are crickets, like that classic sort of Spanish sound. Very quiet except for just the chirping of crickets. And I looked up and I saw this thing and it was almost like the universe was laughing at me. It was almost like, uh, after this chaotic thing and reading the book and I'm Santiago and going through all this stuff and what the f- I thought that I was the person that was supposed to be the person that's supposed to be here. Fuck, I'm not. All of these people are the person I thought I was and that means who the fuck am I? And like, oh my God, am I having an exist- I'm-- This is, this is where it happened. This is classic me. I'm having an existential crisis in the middle of fucking Love Island. Like, that is just the most Chris Williamson thing that could ever-- Oh, and there's the fucking Milky Way. There's the first time I've ever seen it as a person that loves as-astronomy and, like, is obsessed with the stars and, uh, fucking Interstellar had come out like only a couple of months before so I was still obsessed with that and I'm Matthew McConaughey now, fuck Santiago. And all of this stuff had happened and that it wasn't a, an, a, a, a-- Especially with my health journey, I've become very skeptical of acute solutions to chronic problems. Um, but in retrospect, you look back and you go, "Oh, there was something about that." I haven't-- What's that line about, um, life has to be lived forward but only makes sense in reverse? Um, I am yet to find a clouds parted and at that moment I knew. It's much closer to the clouds parted and in retrospect I knew that at that moment I knew. Something closer to that, if that makes sense.

   20. KDr. K31:48

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:49

       Anyway, I looked up and saw the Milky Way and it was just, I can still see it now. It was so fucking sick and it ran completely, uh, sort of whatever that is, perpendicular to the way I was looking. So just as if someone had painted it on the fucking ceiling and it was the sickest thing. And I went home and I was like, "Okay, between the book and the existential crisis and the Milky Way, it feels like I need to do some more self-investigation," and that was me at 27. 27. And shortly after that I do six months sober for the first time. Not that I ever had a particularly big problem with alcohol, but I was a party boy so I'd drink every two weeks but very heavily. And then start meditating and start doing breathwork and really take things seriously and it's the same coalescent time that Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris and Alain de Botton from The School of Life are coming online and, like, I'm listening to more Rogan and I get introduced to Naval Ravikant and, like, all of this stuff starts happening at the same time that sort of pushes me in this, in, in this direction toward paying more attention to myself and being sel-more self-investigatory. Um, so yeah. Is Love Island a strange way to talk about rock bottom? Yeah, I suppose, but from an existential standpoint, like it really fucking felt like it. It was like, oh you have constructed your entire identity around being someone that you're not and this is about as, like about as magnificent and certainly about as public of a way to experience an existential crisis. So that's my [clears throat] pull the pin on the grenade and throw that one into the-

   22. KDr. K33:18

       Beautiful

   23. CWChris Williamson33:18

       ... into the mix. Cool.

   24. KDr. K33:19

       Yeah. Thank you for sharing that, man.

   25. CWChris Williamson33:21

       Yeah. Cool.

   26. JHJoe Hudson33:22

       It-- Yeah. Thank you. It strikes me the identity being such a critical part.

   27. KDr. K33:26

       Yeah.

   28. JHJoe Hudson33:27

       Yeah.

   29. KDr. K33:28

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JHJoe Hudson33:28

       Yeah.
4. 33:53 – 43:18

   The Moment Joe Knew He’d Hit Rock Bottom

   1. CWChris Williamson33:53

      That was it.

   2. JHJoe Hudson33:53

      [laughs] I, I mean, rock bottom's, uh, there's-- I mean, if I look at my life there's several places where that happened and like getting kicked out of college and-- But I think the one that-

   3. KDr. K34:04

      That's me too.

   4. JHJoe Hudson34:05

      Yeah. [laughing]

   5. CWChris Williamson34:06

      Pretty good brother.

   6. JHJoe Hudson34:09

      Um, uh, the, [clears throat] the kicked out of college is a good story, but I don't think it's the one that for this. It-- I think the, the, the rock bottom for me was, um, I meet my wife through like a set of unbelievable circumstances. Like over and over again we're thrown together. It's like so clear that we're supposed to be together. Um, we get engaged really quickly and then we actually have to learn to live with each other. And there is a moment where I'm like spending a lot of my time meditating in this house in, on 200 acres outside of Ukiah and so b- like basically my pastime is fighting abusively with my wife, meaning like we are being abusive to each other. And there was literally a moment where she's like has a Miata and she's like revving her engine threatening to run me over and I'm standing over her front of her thing with a pitchfork. I think that was like the, the rock bottom of, of whoever I think I am, like valedictorian of the college I didn't get kicked out of or, you know, really successful in the stock market at the time or this meditator or guy who's like really understands like personal development and I, I mean, I'm like 27 or something. I knew nothing. But all those identities like collapsed in that moment.

   7. KDr. K35:35

      Hmm.

   8. JHJoe Hudson35:35

      There was just that moment of like, "No, this is what's happening. [laughs] This is my reality." My reality is that like I have learnt how to be with, uh, love in this way from my parents. This is all I know and I'm repeating the pattern and so whatever it is I think I know, what- however cool I think I am, however like wise or successful I think I am, no, this is actually my reality right here. And it was that moment when, you know, there's that famous thing if you're pointing at somebody three fingers are pointing back at you. There was like, "Oh, I'm not focused on what she's doing anymore. I'm only focused on myself." Like whatever that allowed this to occur, I'm s-solely focused there. That wasn't always perfect obviously, but it was absolutely changed that ... position. And then the other thing that occurred was there's no amount of meditating that's gonna solve this. This is not a-- This doesn't get solved through meditation.

   9. CWChris Williamson36:37

      Mm.

   10. JHJoe Hudson36:38

       This gets solved some other way, and so I'm gonna find that other way. And so that started the, like, the deep investigation of things like Hoffman process and trauma work and somatic work and, and so-

   11. CWChris Williamson36:51

       How old were you?

   12. JHJoe Hudson36:52

       26, 27 years old. Yeah. And so-- And this was a succession of fights, but it was that moment that was, like, so fucking clear. Like, this is what my life-

   13. CWChris Williamson37:02

       You were wielding a pitchfork?

   14. JHJoe Hudson37:03

       Yeah, and, and, and getting threatened to be run over. [chuckles] You know? Like, it was, it was-

   15. CWChris Williamson37:07

       Don't bring a pitchfork to a car fight

   16. JHJoe Hudson37:08

       ... it was, there was like-- She had the, she-- Exactly. [laughing] She had the better weapon. I really-

   17. CWChris Williamson37:13

       And if you've met Tara, she would use it. [chuckles]

   18. JHJoe Hudson37:14

       Oh, yeah. Of course, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson37:16

       I really just am picturing you in, like, jean overalls with no shirt on.

   20. JHJoe Hudson37:20

       [laughs]

   21. CWChris Williamson37:21

       In a fucking Mazda Miata about to hit you, and you've got your pitchfork. I'm like, "There's a painting in your future, Joe-"

   22. JHJoe Hudson37:27

       Totally

   23. CWChris Williamson37:27

       "... that I'm gonna send you, and it's gonna be that." [chuckles]

   24. JHJoe Hudson37:30

       Yeah. It was brutal.

   25. KDr. K37:31

       I was picturing you in monk's robes with a pitchfork. [laughing] Like, meditating your way out of life.

   26. JHJoe Hudson37:37

       Right?

   27. KDr. K37:38

       And then, like-

   28. JHJoe Hudson37:38

       Yeah

   29. KDr. K37:38

       ... one of these, like, warrior monks from, like-

   30. JHJoe Hudson37:40

       Yeah
5. 43:18 – 54:57

   How Karma Led Dr K to Rock Bottom

   1. KDr. K43:18

      let's start with the story, I guess.

   2. CWChris Williamson43:20

      Mm.

   3. KDr. K43:21

      Um, you sure you don't wanna go?

   4. CWChris Williamson43:22

      No, please.

   5. KDr. K43:22

      [laughs] So, so I, I, you know, like Joe, and I'm sure like you guys, uh, you know, I had a series of rock bottoms, and then there's, like, the classic rock bottom that I, that I sort of share with people, which is a rock bottom that looks like a rock bottom. Um, so I, you know, I'm, I'm failing out of college, um, you know, spending every day playing 16 to 20 hours of video games a day. And I remember, like, waking up one morning and sleeping through my Spanish final. Or not sleeping. I wake up with my alarm and, like, my Spanish final is today, and I just, like, decided in that moment, like, I'm not gonna go. And it's not even that... Like, I'd even, like, scr- like, studied frantically for about six hours the night before, and then I slept for, like, two hours, and then I was like, "I'm just not gonna go." And so I kind of failed out of college and then went to India after a couple of years. And then, um, at really interest... So I, I, I was 21 at the time, spent 90 days in an ashram, and at the end of it, I went to one of my, what I truly believed to be one of my gurus. But he was actually another student at the ashram. So I thought he was spiritually way more developed than, like, the teachers or leaders of the ashram, who were, um, surprisingly narcissistic in, in many ways.

   6. CWChris Williamson44:37

      There's a study that shows this, by the way.

   7. KDr. K44:39

      Yeah, I'm sure there is.

   8. CWChris Williamson44:40

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. KDr. K44:40

      'Cause it, I mean, it's, it's so bad. Um, a- and so I go to my teacher and I say, "Hey, this is what I wanna do for the rest of my life." You know? Like, "So I, I wanna take sannyas, I wanna become a monk," and he's like, "No." He says, "You can come back if you want to when you're 30. You can take your vows when you're 30, but you need to go back and you need to finish your education." And he also says, "Unless you can become exceptional in the material world, you're just gonna fail." Like the ta- what you're, what... The path that you wanna walk is so much harder than becoming the, getting to the top of your field, like materially. So I kind of took that to heart. It was kind of confusing and, and destabilizing and stuff like that, but I was like, "Okay, fine. So I'm going to become a monk." And then, then I, I go back and, and, like, within weeks of returning and making my decision to become a monk and, like, going to be celibate.

   10. CWChris Williamson45:33

       [laughs]

   11. CWChris Williamson45:34

       [laughs]

   12. KDr. K45:36

       No fap.

   13. CWChris Williamson45:37

       [laughs]

   14. KDr. K45:37

       So, so then, then I, I meet my wife.

   15. CWChris Williamson45:39

       Ferocious masturbation.

   16. CWChris Williamson45:40

       I'm just saying, this is quite a sign for celibacy.

   17. KDr. K45:44

       Yes, it is.

   18. CWChris Williamson45:45

       Yeah.

   19. KDr. K45:47

       [clears throat] So, so then I, I, I go back and, and within one week of returning to the US, I meet my wife. I mean, she's not my wife at the time. But I, I meet this girl, and I had had just a string of terrible, I can't even call them relationships. I would say, like, attempted relationships, if you guys know what I mean.

   20. CWChris Williamson46:04

       Mm-hmm.

   21. KDr. K46:04

       If you guys were ever there. Um, and, and so y- I was, like, in a fraternity and partying a lot and stuff like that, and just, like, nothing had ever worked out. And I meet this girl and, and she's a freshman, and I'm s- I mean, it's my third year in college, but I'm a sophomore. Um, and so we start date- like, I didn't realize we were dating, but we start dating. And then, you know, I tell her, like, a couple months in, I was like, "I'm sorry, I have to become a monk." [laughs]

   22. CWChris Williamson46:26

       [laughs]

   23. KDr. K46:26

       "This is temporary." And she's, like, 18. You know, she's a freshman. And so I'm like, "You know, like, I'm gonna..." Like, she deserves to be with someone who's better, and I'm going to become a monk.

   24. CWChris Williamson46:35

       [laughs]

   25. KDr. K46:36

       And she's like, "Yeah, whatever."

   26. CWChris Williamson46:37

       [laughs]

   27. KDr. K46:38

       And, and so that goes on for a while, and then finally I decide, like, oh, I'm actually... Like, I, I realize, I'm sure what you guys realized at some point, that, oh, like, being a monk is, like, what's on the outside, and the real work is, like, on the inside, and I don't need to become a monk to do the work. Um, and in fact, people who sometimes dedicate themselves to doing the work in a very visible out- outer way are, like, spiritually bereft and empty on the inside.

   28. CWChris Williamson47:04

       Mm.

   29. KDr. K47:05

       And then the part of the story that I think is, like, rock bottom is the peak, um, that I, I don't know if I've publicly shared before. So I graduated with a 2.4 GPA, and so I wanted to go to medical school. And the reason I wanted to go to... So I wanted to go to medical school at the beginning because I was the child of doctors, and in being Indian, like, being a doctor was like, is as high as you can go, right? So people will think I'm a badass. And not only did I want to go to medical school, can any of y'all guess which medical school I had set my sights on? Any, any takers? Any guesses?

   30. CWChris Williamson47:36

       Harvard.
6. 54:57 – 1:03:10

   When Self-Hatred Becomes Rock Bottom

   1. CBConnor Beaton54:57

      I mean, I feel like I was way more of a shit show than, [laughs] than you guys. Like-

   2. CWChris Williamson55:02

      Amen to that

   3. JHJoe Hudson55:02

      If you're gonna win, don't brag about it.

   4. CWChris Williamson55:04

      [laughs]

   5. CBConnor Beaton55:05

      Right? No, I gotta brag a little bit. No, I mean, like I, I really genuinely hated myself. I really genuinely hated... Like, it would make me emotional still today. You know, like I hated myself. And I was really lost. Like, I didn't really, I didn't know who I was. I was a con- I was a walking contradiction. Like, if you had met me at 22, I was riding a motorcycle, riding a bright yellow crotch rocket with a helmet that had two-inch metal spikes super glued onto it, going to yoga classes, binge drinking at night, smoking cigarettes, and going to opera rehearsal, 'cause I was singing classical music. Like, I did not know who the hell I was at all, and I was trying to grasp onto w- w- who could I possibly become in this world of possibilities. And, and I just had so much pain and suffering inside of me. And anyway, the rock bottom moment for me, I completed my degree, uh, in music, in opera performance [laughs] as a classical singer. And-

   6. JHJoe Hudson56:12

      Where are you living at this point?

   7. CBConnor Beaton56:13

      I was in Vancouver.

   8. JHJoe Hudson56:14

      Okay.

   9. CBConnor Beaton56:14

      I was in, at, at this point, the rock bottom point, I was in Victoria.

   10. JHJoe Hudson56:17

       Okay, cool.

   11. CBConnor Beaton56:17

       And, um-

   12. JHJoe Hudson56:18

       It's a good place for rock bottom.

   13. CBConnor Beaton56:20

       It's a great place for rock bottom.

   14. JHJoe Hudson56:21

       [laughs]

   15. CBConnor Beaton56:21

       It really, it actually-

   16. CWChris Williamson56:22

       I, I was just thinking, I mean, you said you were at your low point, but you sound like a blast to hang out with. [laughs]

   17. CBConnor Beaton56:26

       Oh, I was fucking nuts.

   18. CWChris Williamson56:27

       Opera singer, right? Like, you know.

   19. JHJoe Hudson56:29

       Motorcycle, fucking sing.

   20. CBConnor Beaton56:31

       Yeah. And you know, it was, I, it was always a contradiction because I didn't like who I was, but I was charismatic and I was able to attract women, but then I didn't feel good enough, and so I'd sabotage the relationships. And, and so a- anyway, I was, I had just finished my degree. I was living in Victoria, and I had been s- I had moved there to work with a mentor, and he was somebody that was in his 70s who was French Canadian. And the background is that for the previous like two or three years, I was in a relationship for a number of years, but for the previous two or three years, I had been having a number of affairs. I was just, like, sleeping around nonstop when I'd travel. [laughs]

   21. CWChris Williamson57:15

       Nice.

   22. JHJoe Hudson57:15

       You're, you're literally telling huge parts of my, my 22-year-old experience.

   23. CBConnor Beaton57:19

       Okay, there you go. There you go. Yeah. There you go.

   24. JHJoe Hudson57:20

       Yeah, smoking cigarettes, sleeping around.

   25. CBConnor Beaton57:22

       Yeah.

   26. JHJoe Hudson57:22

       Like, doing all sorts of shit.

   27. CWChris Williamson57:23

       Dude, I, I was just, I was just watching from-

   28. CBConnor Beaton57:25

       There you go

   29. CWChris Williamson57:25

       ... the dorms playing video games.

   30. JHJoe Hudson57:27

       I was, you were in the tuck chair playing RuneScape.
7. 1:03:10 – 1:15:14

   The Beauty of Knowing You’ve Made It

   1. KDr. K1:03:10

      That, that's so interesting 'cause, uh, th-this is the experience that I, I don't share with y'all. So, so my internal experience of making it is, like, absurdist and meme-ish. Like, it, it, it, it's not negative, but, but, like, you know, when you guys talk about this deep beauty, I d- I don't think-- So I, I, I feel, like, not to make too many comparisons, but I, I think I'm luckier actually.

   2. CBConnor Beaton1:03:35

      Mm.

   3. KDr. K1:03:36

      You know? And I think you win, by the way. [laughing] Um, y- y-

   4. CWChris Williamson1:03:40

      I don't know. The pitchforks.

   5. KDr. K1:03:42

      Actually-

   6. CBConnor Beaton1:03:42

      The pitchfork.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:03:43

      Yeah.

   8. KDr. K1:03:43

      Well, I-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:03:44

      Love Island

   10. KDr. K1:03:44

       ... Love Island is hard to top. Just-

   11. CBConnor Beaton1:03:46

       The painting, it's-- The painting's gonna be good. [laughing]

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:49

       Yeah.

   13. KDr. K1:03:50

       But, but yeah, you know what, you know, so I, I felt, I think, the depth of what you guys are talking about, but it has a different color.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:03:57

       Mm.

   15. KDr. K1:03:57

       Like, I actually just recently had a, a conversation with my wife about-- And, and I've, I've, I've gone through some stuff recently, which maybe we'll get to, but just, like, we're really lucky. We're, like, so incredibly lucky. And also, like, when I look at my life, I, I feel a sense of disbelief and humor.

   16. CBConnor Beaton1:04:20

       Totally.

   17. KDr. K1:04:20

       So one time, my wife got an email from a Nigerian prince. And we're like, "This is a scam." Oh, sorry, not a Nigerian prince, someone from the UAE. "This is a scam," right? Except it wasn't. It was, like, an, uh, someone from a royal family of a country in the, in the UAE, in the MENA region, was reaching out and wanted to invest in, in Healthy Gamer.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:04:48

       Mm.

   19. KDr. K1:04:49

       And so, like, we looked at-- And, like, so clearly, like, you get some, like, "Hi, my name is whatever. I'm, like, royalty, and I wanna give y'all this pile of money."

   20. CBConnor Beaton1:04:57

       Yeah, sure you are.

   21. KDr. K1:04:57

       "Do, do you guys have time to talk?" And, and-

   22. CWChris Williamson1:05:01

       The real philanthropic, like, Ghanaian and UAE community has been diddled by all of the scams. Like, if I'm trying to give my money away as a Nigerian prince, it actually becomes quite hard now. [laughing]

   23. KDr. K1:05:12

       Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so we were-- And, and, and then, like, like, we, we have this moment, right? And then I look at this and I'm like, "What?" Like, this is where I-- Like, what is this? And, and that's the strangest-- I mean, that's the mo- When I feel the depth of-- You guys are talking about the shattering of the veil, which I think is a great thing to explore methodologically, right?

   24. CBConnor Beaton1:05:32

       Yeah, yeah.

   25. KDr. K1:05:33

       Like, how do, how do you get there?

   26. CBConnor Beaton1:05:34

       Mm.

   27. KDr. K1:05:35

       But when, when I see through the veil, like, what I see is something that is just weirdly, like, absurd and, like, funny.

   28. CBConnor Beaton1:05:41

       Mm.

   29. KDr. K1:05:41

       And, and I feel an immense amount of joy w-with it, so I think there's a positive valence, but it's not, like, grand and awe-inspiring. And, and not to say that, you know, one is better than the other, but if there are people out there who feel that, feel the absurdism of life-

   30. CWChris Williamson1:05:56

       It's funny that you're, you're, like, marveling at the cathedral and you're giggling at it.
8. 1:15:14 – 1:23:59

   What Does Karma Actually Mean?

   1. KDr. K1:15:14

      So I, I, I love, I love this... I, I, I love your framing, Connor, 'cause it's like what are you gonna do with the pain inside you? Like, it's there.

   2. CBConnor Beaton1:15:22

      Mm.

   3. KDr. K1:15:22

      It ain't going anywhere. You can't get rid of it. And so you said there's a reckoning, and I think that's what karma is. Karma is the reckoning. So karma is nothing more than the principle of cause and effect, right? So I think Newton's third law, every action has an equal and opposite reaction. This is a principle of physics. It's like cause and effect is part of the fabric of the universe, and what gets confusing about karma is that it, like, I think people are very imprecise with their understanding of it. They think it means, like, justice, but karma's not human. It's not morality. It's not justice. It's just cause and effect. If a ball goes up in the air, a ball comes back down. So when I was in maybe my third year of wannabe monk training, I, I met someone and, and who was pretty spiritually developed, and, and I was like, "Well, what do you think about, like, karma?" And he said, "Well, I can't, I can't stand behind any philosophy that says if a woman is , it's her fault." And so I think this speaks to the ignorance around karma, uh, that, like, it's like that karma's gonna get your... Like, if you, if I steal from you, like, something bad is gonna happen to me. I think we live in a world where the karma of stealing from people is to become a billionaire.

   4. CBConnor Beaton1:16:42

      Mm.

   5. KDr. K1:16:42

      Like, that's the karmic price that you pay when you embezzle a country's funds, let's say, right? A- and so karma's nothing more than cause and effect, and my exploration of karma tried to... I tried to ask myself one question, if you wanna understand h- I mean, I don't know if this will help you understand karma. It's how I understand it. When does cause and effect end? So if I have a patient who, you know, has a, has depression, let's say. So we know that there's, like, genetics that cause a predili- uh, changes the, the, their serotonin transporter structure in some way. That predisposes them to something. So that's, like, a cause. Like, this is a cause that predisposes them to depression. We also know that there are environmental factors like experiences like trauma or adverse childhood experiences. Those are al- those are also causes that have effects, and the really interesting thing is the further back you go, I wasn't able to find a convincing way. I don't know. I'm gonna struggle to, to put this. So there are all the effects that you have in your current life that were pretty measurable, but what about all the things about your life that are random? The time that this consciousness embodied this set of neurons, who your parents are. Because does that suddenly become random at some point? And that doesn't make any sense to me. Like, I think it's just, it's cause and effect all the way back. Like, cause and, like... And we sort of know this, and this is what, why it gets kinda confusing. Like, duh, like, you're, you're a kid because you had your parents. Well, that's a cause, and then that has a cause, and that has a cause. And if you sort of think about it, the closer I got to the border of what is random, I couldn't find any answer that, like, nothing is random. You can make an argument that things like Brownian motion are, are random or, like, quarks are random or whatever. So there seems to be some randomness in the universe, but it also seems like despite r- r- really subatomic levels, there's randomness. But somehow order emerges, right? So we don't know exactly what's going on there.

   6. CBConnor Beaton1:18:43

      Mm.

   7. KDr. K1:18:44

      And so the way that I think about karma, because then people also get into questions of destiny and free will and stuff like that. The way that I s- really simply understand it is it's your choice whether you jump off the cliff, but it's destiny whether you fall after you make your decision, right? So, like, like, and, and this is where I think what a lot of people don't realize and what I loved about your, your answer, Connor, is, like, you have a lot of pain inside you. How are you going to deal with that? That is your karma All of us made choices, right? And this is where maybe we're getting to agency.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:19:19

      Mm.

   9. KDr. K1:19:20

      Like, we made choices. You decided to glue spikes onto your helmet. I, uh, the alarm at 7:00 AM, I did the stupid thing where I was like, "If I have an 8:00 AM class, I'll wake up," right? I, I thought I could force myself. But I had the 7:00 AM alarm at the beginning of my Spanish final, and I was like, "Okay, I gotta go get..." And I, I chose to turn it off and go back to sleep. We make choices, and we have to live with the consequences of our choices. And I think the biggest mistake that I see so many men make is that they try to get away from the choices that they make. They lean away from the... You see it in the corner of your eye, you turn away from it, and Joe will tell you, I'm sure he can tell you 1,000 stories-

   10. CWChris Williamson1:20:06

       Yeah

   11. KDr. K1:20:07

       ... of how that's just gonna make things worse. You have pain inside you, you're trying to run away from it, ain't gonna work. There is a reckoning, and when I've learned this in my life, and this has been, like, brutal. Like, we talk about rock bottom, I feel like I'm still at rock bottom in many ways.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:20:23

       Mm.

   13. KDr. K1:20:23

       You know? And that's why when you're like, "Would you want it again?" I'm like, "No. Can I finally, finally can I get rid of it? Can I be done? Can I rest?" And the answer is, like, "No, not yet." And so karma is like you can't run away from the things that you do. And even running away, people think that, "Okay, I can deal with it tomorrow." No, you can't. What people don't understand is your brain is plastic 24 hours a day, seven days a week, which means it is constantly wiring. If you do not do that task today, you will train yourself to not do tasks. There is no such thing as waiting until tomorrow. We assume that the organism that we are, that you will be a di- the same fundamental organism, just better rested, right? Slightly more motivated. I've listened to Modern Wisdom, and so tomorrow I will-- it'll do the work for me. Which is the other thing that I think we're all getting to. Nothing, no amount of meditation, no amount of spending time in the Himalayas, no amount of whatever the fuck you were doing [laughs] Right? Chopping wood-

   14. CWChris Williamson1:21:33

       Bernard

   15. KDr. K1:21:33

       ... shadow work.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:21:33

       Bernard.

   17. KDr. K1:21:33

       Yeah, Bernard.

   18. CWChris Williamson1:21:34

       Yeah, Bernard.

   19. KDr. K1:21:35

       Bernard, Bernard can get you halfway there, right? All this stuff can get you halfway there, but nothing is a substitute for that karmic reckoning.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:21:43

       Mm.

   21. KDr. K1:21:44

       And that moment of like, you have to take control at some point.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:21:48

       Can we get somewhat methodological?

   23. JHJoe Hudson1:21:52

       Y- y- yeah. There's-- I think there's one thing I wanna touch on before we do that, but it'll, I think it'll be part of it. If we, if we go back to that mountain thing-

   24. CWChris Williamson1:21:58

       Mm-hmm

   25. JHJoe Hudson1:21:59

       ... I think there's also a developmental issue-

   26. CWChris Williamson1:22:02

       Mmm

   27. JHJoe Hudson1:22:02

       ... in the mountain. When you're going up the mountain, you're learning agency. I think that's a really important thing to learn-

   28. CWChris Williamson1:22:08

       Yes

   29. JHJoe Hudson1:22:08

       ... before you get to surrender.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:22:10

       I sent you Charlie Houpert's conception of this that he gave me-
9. 1:23:59 – 1:32:33

   Is the Work Ever Done?

   1. CWChris Williamson1:23:59

      side.

   2. JHJoe Hudson1:23:59

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:23:59

      This is something that I found incredibly difficult and painful, and is one of the reasons I like to talk about the lonely chapter, that if the, and arriving is, is kind of part of this, too. Realizing that the, the tools that you relied on that pulled you out of the last quagmire, and now the things that you have to pull yourself out of again. Hang on, you're telling me this thing, and there's a, a lot of value that's wrapped up in it, almost like a morality of this thing. This thing is good, was good to me.

   4. JHJoe Hudson1:24:28

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:24:29

      And now you're telling me that my, uh, my fellow escapee has become my captor. Fuck.

   6. JHJoe Hudson1:24:37

      Yeah.

   7. KDr. K1:24:38

      Yeah.

   8. JHJoe Hudson1:24:38

      Pre- precisely, actually, I think it's more precise is, and now that is only a tool that's good about 5% of the time.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:24:46

      Yeah.

   10. KDr. K1:24:46

       Yeah.

   11. JHJoe Hudson1:24:46

       [laughs]

   12. KDr. K1:24:46

       It's less. It's significantly less useful.

   13. JHJoe Hudson1:24:47

       So I can't let go of it all the way either.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:24:49

       Yes. Yes, yes.

   15. JHJoe Hudson1:24:49

       I can't let go of it all the way either.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:24:51

       Yes. I've got to feather the throttle, but now I need to grow a third leg-

   17. JHJoe Hudson1:24:54

       Yeah [laughs]

   18. CWChris Williamson1:24:54

       ... and actually be able to put another throttle on at the same time.

   19. JHJoe Hudson1:24:58

       Yeah, yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:24:58

       Yeah.

   21. KDr. K1:24:58

       So I, I think there's an attitude here that, speaking of methodology, which I think we should pivot to, people have this idea of wanting to be done. And, and I hate that we live-

   22. CWChris Williamson1:25:10

       Mm

   23. KDr. K1:25:10

       ... in a society that, like, propagates this idea. Like passive income, retirement Right? People will sometimes ask me, 'cause we talk about rock bottom, and they're like, I, I remember I, I felt very envious and intimidated and ashamed because someone that I went to high school with became a doctor while I was... Oh, finished medical school while I was still applying.

   24. CBConnor Beaton1:25:30

       Mm.

   25. KDr. K1:25:31

       So I, I, I started med school at 28. Um, and, and so they were done by then. And so we met for Christmas, like I hadn't seen her in 10 years, and I was like, "Oh, what are you up to?" And she's like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm finishing. I'm done with medical school. You know, I'm moving on to residency." I was like, "What are you up to?" And I was like, "I'm applying." [laughs]

   26. CBConnor Beaton1:25:48

       [laughs]

   27. KDr. K1:25:49

       A- a- and so w- you know, I think people feel exhausted, and so they hope for this day when the work is done.

   28. CBConnor Beaton1:25:59

       Dirty fuel.

   29. KDr. K1:26:00

       Uh, dirty fuel. And, and so there's this side of like, "Okay, when can I be done? When can I... What do I need to do? Like, what amount of passive income? What amount of this?" Like, "When can I, when can I-

   30. CBConnor Beaton1:26:08

       What amount of meditation? What amount of self-care?
10. 1:32:33 – 1:40:18

    Why You Need a Mountain to Climb

    1. CWChris Williamson1:32:33

       And this is, this is one of the things that having three people that have done a, you know, to- total lifetime self-work of, like, more than some people that are listening to this. Like, you, you guys between you will have meditated for more time than some people listening to this have been alive. Like, which i- I don't know, maybe. Close.

    2. CBConnor Beaton1:32:48

       Definitely.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:32:48

       Someone said that. Um, so one of the problems that you end up with there is, like, trying to shortcut through the mountain or tell people the mountain doesn't exist, and it's like, "Yeah, I know, but the world has never shown me that I'm even worth anything, and part of me just wants some motherfucking proof."

    4. CBConnor Beaton1:33:04

       Right.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:33:04

       Like, I just want some proof that I can, like, do things.

    6. CBConnor Beaton1:33:08

       That, that's where climbing the mountain's really important.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:33:10

       Yes.

    8. CBConnor Beaton1:33:10

       Yeah. Can we, can we break this down into, like, two pieces that I think might be helpful for the listener? One is I think everybody needs to develop a sense of self-worth, which is relational based, it's attachment based, and, in my opinion. And then second, people need to develop self-esteem. They need to have some level of confidence, competence, capability, and those two modalities are very different modalities to build and develop. And oftentimes what's happening for a lot of people is that they're lacking in a sense of worth and value, and how they're trying to acquire that or develop it is through stacking up competencies and proficiencies and being very capable, and it doesn't w- it doesn't actually help them fill the gap of, "I have inherent worth. I actually matter."

    9. CWChris Williamson1:33:55

       Because you're constantly gonna have to perform. If people only love me for what I do-

    10. CBConnor Beaton1:33:58

        Correct

    11. CWChris Williamson1:33:59

        ... that means that no one loves me for who I am. And also, if I stopped doing what I do, the love that I do have, because it's contingent on me doing the thing-

    12. CBConnor Beaton1:34:07

        Yes

    13. CWChris Williamson1:34:07

        ... requires me to continue to do the thing, and if I stop doing the thing, the love would go away.

    14. CBConnor Beaton1:34:10

        Yeah. And so I-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:34:11

        So you better keep podcasting, son.

    16. CBConnor Beaton1:34:12

        So you better keep podcasting. [laughs]

    17. CWChris Williamson1:34:13

        I'm 1,200 episodes in. What the fuck do you think I'm doing?

    18. CBConnor Beaton1:34:16

        Yeah. [laughs]

    19. KDr. K1:34:18

        Yeah, I mean, I, I totally agree. So I, I mean, this is something I realized recently. I, I've been working with people for a while, and solving your problems doesn't solve your problems.

    20. CBConnor Beaton1:34:29

        Mm.

    21. KDr. K1:34:29

        You know? So, like, if, if you have low self-esteem, and w-

    22. CBConnor Beaton1:34:32

        Mm-hmm, mm-hmm

    23. KDr. K1:34:32

        ... this is what we see with imposter syndrome. So what's really interesting is imposter syndrome, I went to Tufts for medical school and, and Harvard for residency, and the rate of imposter syndrome at Harvard is astronomically higher, right? So when you have this self-esteem problem and you start racking up substitutes for a self... Esteem, I think, is a good word to start, but I think we're gonna get methodologically deeper than that. Um, you know, it just, it just doesn't work.

    24. CBConnor Beaton1:35:02

        Mm-hmm.

    25. KDr. K1:35:03

        And there is, there is a, there is a role, and this is what I've seen. Each thing has its place, and the moment that you start substituting one thing for another thing, so competence, success in the world, I'm not anti these things. I don't think any of us is anti these things, right? Climbing to the top of the mountain has a lot of value because once you're at the top of the mountain, you've got a good view. But don't... The, the top of the mountain is not a substitute for the bottom of the mountain. And so by all means, strive, achieve. There are met- methodologies to do that. But I, I completely agree with what Connor's saying, that, like, that is not a substitute, which I think is the theme that's kind of floating to the surface, is like you can't dodge the work.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:35:43

        Mm.

    27. KDr. K1:35:44

        Right?

    28. CWChris Williamson1:35:44

        And a lot of the time the work that you think is the work is not. The work that you think is the work is a substitute for what the actual work is. Like, if I just do the grit and spit and sawdust thing... Like, I, I, I heard this line that, um, people seem to like where I kind of called out, uh, endurance athletes. Um, people are prepared to deal with discomfort as long as they get to choose the flavor of their discomfort. The, "I can do hard things" is very easy in some ways to the ultra runner who will go and train and do a 50K warmup for the race they've got next weekend, but won't go home and have a difficult conversation with their spouse.

    29. CBConnor Beaton1:36:21

        Mm.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:36:21

        You go, "Uh-huh, that's interesting. I do hard things, but only in this domain over here, not in this one-
11. 1:40:18 – 1:54:22

    Is Awareness the Key to Conquering Desire?

    1. KDr. K1:40:18

       Can I expand?

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:40:20

       Yeah, please.

    3. KDr. K1:40:20

       Okay, so I, I, I hope this is closer to methodology. So my answer is slightly different, but I, I'm pretty sure we'd all agree on everything.

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:40:27

       Yeah [laughs] .

    5. KDr. K1:40:27

       So the reason I think want is hard to sit with is because it's actually the f- it's the foundation of all suffering. So if you think about what is peace, what is contentment, contentment is the absence of want. So I'm hungry. That is a disturbance of my peace. I want food. Want is the biolog- biological source of survival, right? So if you look at any living organism-

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:41:02

       Of evolution too.

    7. KDr. K1:41:03

       Of evolution, yeah, yeah.

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:41:04

       Yeah.

    9. KDr. K1:41:04

       Yeah. So bio- biology, evolution.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:41:06

        Yeah.

    11. KDr. K1:41:06

        Yeah. Right? So and this is the problem with being human, and this is the problem with being a living organism, is like even an amoeba that encounters some toxic pH will want to move away from it. So I, I think even if you look at fear, what is fear? Well, fear is a want for safety. What is anger? Anger is a want for territory, a, a wanting of safety. What is lust? It's wanting, you know [laughs] ...

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:41:32

        Pretty good.

    13. KDr. K1:41:33

        Right?

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:41:33

        [laughs] Anal sex.

    15. KDr. K1:41:33

        And, and even if, if you look at, like, okay, can I tunnel through? This is a want for the avoidance of hard work. So this is something that I think the Buddha taught, and this is something that's really fascinating. I don't know if you guys noticed this, but no one teaches the Buddha's teachings. Have you guys noticed this?

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:41:51

        Yeah.

    17. KDr. K1:41:52

        Like, there's a Bible, which is, like, what Jesus taught, and then there's a Krish- there's the Bhagavad Gita, which is what Krishna taught. There's the Quran, which is what Muhammad taught. Where's, where's Buddhist book? It's the Pali Canon. So we have a bunch of Buddhist teachers who are teaching some permutation of the Buddha. Do you guys know why that is? It's because if the Buddhist teachings were taught today, he'd get tarred, feathered, and crucified. His teachings are so contrary, and they are the methodology, right? So Buddhist says something really interesting, which is if you have pain, your reaction to the pain is what suffering is. You can't control that there's gonna be pain in life, like bad shit is gonna happen. It's the way that you react to it, right? So Joe, when faced with the car, holds his pitchfork. It's your reaction to it. That's really all you control in life, is the way that you react to things, which then gets, uh, a problem in agency, and I've worked with lots of addicts who can't control their reactions. And then, but he says something, so that is, like, something that, uh, in the commoditization of therapy, we love to tell patients, like, "Ah, you have pain. She has dumped you. You cannot control it. But don't, don't feel bad, bro." [laughs] Right? "Let's talk about your feelings. It's okay." What we don't tell people is the Buddha says there's an even more insidious thing, which is that pleasure, which is the opposite of pain, is not something that you can control in life. When you wake up, when you walk outside after Love Island, you have no control over seeing the Milky Way and that, that evocation of positive feeling. So pleasure you can't control in life. And when you attach yourself to pleasure, which is often used as an antidote to pain, it creates obsession.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:43:41

        Hmm.

    19. KDr. K1:43:41

        So pain leads to suffering if you don't react to, to it correctly. Pleasure leads to obsession if you don't react to it correctly. If you hold on to pleasure, if you strive for wanting, if you want to satisfy your wants, that's gonna be where you lose control of your life. And I think you're spot on and it's so interesting because I had a, I had a meditation teacher who told me, like, "Here's how you conquer desire." And he said, so he said, "I used to be addicted to potato chips." And so he said like, "You know what would happen is I'm like, I'm yoga, yogi. Rishikesh, Haridwar, Himalayas, right? So I'm going to do sadhana, proper spiritual practice, not this white people thing."

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:44:24

        [laughs]

    21. KDr. K1:44:25

        Okay? So then he's like-

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:44:27

        Hmm

    23. KDr. K1:44:27

        ... "I really like potato chips, and like this is something I must conquer to become enlightened." Just one step away. Just one fucking potato chip.

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:44:34

        I love it. Once I stop the potato chip eating, then I'll be done.

    25. KDr. K1:44:38

        Exactly.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:44:38

        Then I'll be done.

    27. KDr. K1:44:39

        Exactly.

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:44:39

        [laughs]

    29. KDr. K1:44:40

        Exactly.

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:44:40

        No you won't.
12. 1:54:22 – 2:11:54

    Why Confronting Your Shame Changes Everything

    1. CWChris Williamson1:54:22

       That's cool.

    2. CBConnor Beaton1:54:22

       Yeah, but you create a, a pattern interrupt, right? Like, if you think about the porn example.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:54:26

       Yeah.

    4. CBConnor Beaton1:54:26

       Somebody's feeling something. They're anxious. They're angry. They're bored. They're lonely. They don't wanna feel that way. Their brain has created a, a... 'Cause our brains are l- largely pattern recognition machines, and they're looking for patterns to largely keep us safe. And so for a lot of guys, they're watching porn, they're rewatching porn because they feel a certain way that they don't wanna feel, and their brain has learned, "Oh, when I feel this, when this emotion pops up in my body, I go jerk off." And that cycle plays out, and they have a very specific cycle. There's a cycle of how they do it, and when they do it, and, and-

    5. KDr. K1:55:00

       [laughs]

    6. CBConnor Beaton1:55:00

       ... how they're feeling before. There's, like, a whole, there's a whole-

    7. KDr. K1:55:02

       Yeah

    8. CBConnor Beaton1:55:02

       ... there's a whole cycle that plays out, and then they always feel a specific way after, which is usually shame, regret. You know, it's like, what's the, post-nut regret, right? It's like, what the fuck was I just watching? Um, and so what Joe's talking about is creating a, a different type of confrontation or a type of confrontation that creates a different pattern-

    9. KDr. K1:55:21

       Mm

    10. CBConnor Beaton1:55:21

        ... that starts to slow things down and accentuate From, uh, a place of like, "Okay, what am I actually feeling?" W- what I've given to guys is set a timer, go sit down, go breathe, and feel into what you're feeling, and I called it the fire meditation. And it's like, okay, you're feeling something in that moment that you're running from.

    11. JHJoe Hudson1:55:39

        Yeah.

    12. CBConnor Beaton1:55:40

        And you don't wanna feel it. You're feeling anger, you're feeling loneliness, you're feeling whatever it is, and you are avoiding it, and so let's move towards it, right? Jung talked about, uh, Carl Jung talked about, like, when you are facing a monster in a dream, the worst thing you can do is run from it, and but this is what we do when we have habits or behaviors or choices that we largely don't wanna deal with, or emotions that we don't wanna deal with.

    13. JHJoe Hudson1:56:04

        Yeah.

    14. CBConnor Beaton1:56:04

        We run from them. And so what, what I'll often do with men is let's turn towards it. So he says when there's a monster in a dream, the first thing that you need to do is you need to turn towards it, and you need to turn towards the thing that you're afraid of or you don't wanna feel, you don't want to experience because n- not always, but sometimes it'll start to dissipate. You can start to build a relationship with it. And instead of, "Oh, I feel this way, I don't wanna feel this way," it's, "Oh, I feel this way, and I'm starting to build tolerance for it. I'm actually still okay-

    15. JHJoe Hudson1:56:34

        Yeah

    16. CBConnor Beaton1:56:34

        ... even though I'm feeling this way." And that, [clears throat] that oftentimes is a by-product of a family system, a nervous system within a family system, where somebody just didn't learn how to deal with hard emotions, right? They didn't learn how to deal with anger or anxiousness or whatever it is. And so they're [chuckles] they've adopted all of these methods to deal with internal states that they don't like. Like, a lot of dysfunction that people are experiencing is, "I'm experiencing an internal state that I don't like, and I have all of these ways of avoiding what's happening inside of me." And so I think part of what we're talking about is how do we support people in turning towards the internal state that they're ultimately trying to avoid? And one of the things that I say to guys all the time is like, "There's no change without some form of confrontation. There's no change without some form of confrontation."

    17. JHJoe Hudson1:57:28

        Super Jungian.

    18. CBConnor Beaton1:57:29

        And, and it's like, but that's... And I think from a masculine perspective, that is something that we're really missing. Like, a lot of young men are-- They have been neutered when it comes to confrontation.

    19. JHJoe Hudson1:57:42

        Yeah.

    20. CBConnor Beaton1:57:42

        They've been told that confrontation is toxic. They've been told that confrontation is bad. They're wrong for it.

    21. JHJoe Hudson1:57:49

        Yeah.

    22. CBConnor Beaton1:57:49

        And so they're really these fragile-

    23. JHJoe Hudson1:57:51

        Not just men

    24. CBConnor Beaton1:57:52

        ... And I was the same way, right? Like I, you know, I was okay with getting into bar fights. That was totally okay. That type of confrontation was fine. But I wasn't okay with the confrontation of like, "Wow, I feel really fucking sad," or, "I feel really weak," or, "I'm really scared about this thing." That type of confrontation was never taught to me, and I think that that's the case for so many people, where they're not taught how to confront the hard, negative, perceived negative experiences that are going on inside of them.

    25. JHJoe Hudson1:58:19

        Surely it becomes very pernicious when the coping mechanism is something that's lauded by other people.

    26. CBConnor Beaton1:58:26

        Totally. Yeah.

    27. JHJoe Hudson1:58:26

        So this is where it gets very squirrely and might be interesting. Well, maybe we could go to the methodology of the rock bottom thing, but- Yeah, there's one more thing about that, that I-- The other thing that's in my approach, which is it's the thing about the negative self-talk, right? So as long as the thing that you're doing is bad, shame makes it so that we get stuck in a pattern.

    28. CBConnor Beaton1:58:50

        Mm.

    29. JHJoe Hudson1:58:50

        Like, if I look, if I say to you, "Hey, what are the 10 things that you've been telling yourself not to do for a decade that you're still doing?" I can tell you, you have shame around them, and it sounds like, "I should do this. Why don't I do this? I have to do this." And so, so the things that you tell yourself you should be doing are the things that you're guaranteed not to do because shame is the lock that holds the chains of bad habits in place. And so to some degree, what I'm doing is I'm taking the shame out of the masturbation-

    30. CBConnor Beaton1:59:18

        Mm-hmm
13. 2:11:54 – 2:14:19

    Is Rock Bottom Really About Shame?

    1. CWChris Williamson2:11:54

       of person?

    2. CBConnor Beaton2:11:54

       So real quick before we... The other thing I'm noticing is all of our stories about hitting rock bottom, they're all a confrontation with shame.

    3. KDr. K2:12:02

       Absolutely. I mean, mine was, yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson2:12:04

       Yeah.

    5. KDr. K2:12:04

       Yeah.

    6. CBConnor Beaton2:12:04

       It's like, in, in some way it's kind of like, oh, and letting go, it's, uh, the confrontation this is actually what's happening and letting it go were all kind of part of all of our stories.

    7. KDr. K2:12:14

       Yeah.

    8. CBConnor Beaton2:12:15

       I, I really did fundamentally believe I was... Like, my core identity was, "I'm broken. Something's wrong with me."

    9. KDr. K2:12:21

       Yeah.

    10. CBConnor Beaton2:12:21

        "I have to root out what's wrong with me and figure that out."

    11. CWChris Williamson2:12:24

        Yeah.

    12. KDr. K2:12:24

        Yeah, so I, I think that the, we're getting to ego. I wanna just touch on one piece of methodology about shame. So when I encounter people like this, 'cause it's, it's kinda interesting, 'cause they don't, it's a different challenge if they don't wanna let go of the shame.

    13. CBConnor Beaton2:12:37

        Mm-hmm.

    14. KDr. K2:12:38

        And usually the way to get around that that I've found is effective is actually going back to wants. Because shame is the gap between what you are and what you want to be.

    15. CBConnor Beaton2:12:48

        Yeah.

    16. KDr. K2:12:49

        So shame cannot exist without want. And then we get to what, what's beautiful is what you started with. What do you want? What do you really want? What do you really want? And then we get to so many people let go of their wants because they can't achieve them. They believe that they can't achieve them.

    17. CBConnor Beaton2:13:10

        Yeah.

    18. KDr. K2:13:10

        And then we get to-

    19. CBConnor Beaton2:13:11

        Or they don't wanna feel them.

    20. KDr. K2:13:12

        Or, or don't wanna feel them.

    21. CBConnor Beaton2:13:13

        Or they don't wanna actually feel it.

    22. KDr. K2:13:15

        Feel what?

    23. CBConnor Beaton2:13:15

        The want.

    24. KDr. K2:13:16

        Yeah, 100%, right?

    25. CBConnor Beaton2:13:17

        Yeah, yeah.

    26. KDr. K2:13:17

        That, that's why they let go of it.

    27. CBConnor Beaton2:13:19

        Yeah, yeah.

    28. KDr. K2:13:19

        That's why they, they drown it out.

    29. CBConnor Beaton2:13:20

        Yeah.

    30. KDr. K2:13:20

        Because the thought of wanting something and knowing that you can't get it is, like, so crushing. And so w- what I tend to lean into with, with these people is let's, let's stru- well, let's get to want. Like, what is it that you really want?
14. 2:14:19 – 2:21:17

    Where to Find Everyone

    1. CWChris Williamson2:14:19

       Uh, guys, I love all of you. You, you fucking rule. Having three of you in the room has been, like, a little dream of mine for a while, and it, it's just wonderful to have you. Uh, send people... Go around the room one final time and s- direct people to the stuff that you do or whatever you think is best for them to, yeah.

    2. CBConnor Beaton2:14:32

       It's just ManTalks everywhere. [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson2:14:35

       ManTalks everywhere.

    4. CBConnor Beaton2:14:35

       ManTalks on YouTube, ManTalks on Instagram. Uh, my book is called Men's Work. That's it.

    5. CWChris Williamson2:14:41

       All right, cool.

    6. JHJoe Hudson2:14:42

       Uh, artofaccomplishment.com or at the YouTube channel probably is the best place to start, or the podcast.

    7. CWChris Williamson2:14:48

       Hell yeah.

    8. KDr. K2:14:49

       Yeah, so I'd say, I mean, HealthyGamerGG is the You- the YouTube channel. But I think if people want entertaining stuff that will teach them a little bit, that's good. But if people want deeper stuff, I am really loving the, the membership thing that we built, and it was supposed to end in six months, and it's been going for, for two years. So I think it's, like, depending on what you guys want, but HealthyGamerGG. Yeah.

    9. CBConnor Beaton2:15:11

       I should say we have an, uh, a membership as well called The Allia- The Alliance, and we've got, like, 1,500 guys in there, so.

    10. KDr. K2:15:17

        That's awesome.

    11. CBConnor Beaton2:15:17

        Yeah, it's a good place to be.

    12. CWChris Williamson2:15:18

        And do you do ret- you don't do anything in person, no?

    13. KDr. K2:15:22

        No, I'm avoidant of relations.

    14. CWChris Williamson2:15:23

        Oh, that's true.

    15. KDr. K2:15:24

        [laughs]

    16. CWChris Williamson2:15:24

        That's what I have, yeah.

    17. CBConnor Beaton2:15:25

        I'm gonna drag, I'm gonna drag you out. I have one for you.

    18. CWChris Williamson2:15:28

        Yeah, you'll be in the woods-

    19. KDr. K2:15:28

        No, no, so, so-

    20. CWChris Williamson2:15:28

        ... wearing a plaid shirt having shit with you at some point soon. Yeah.

    21. KDr. K2:15:32

        So yeah, yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson2:15:32

        Crying in a flower plow.

    23. CBConnor Beaton2:15:33

        That's not at all what we do.

    24. CWChris Williamson2:15:34

        Fuck it is.

    25. KDr. K2:15:35

        I think, I think, I think I have-- I am the most inspired to do a re- a, a retreat or some kind of impersonal thing.

    26. CWChris Williamson2:15:43

        I mean, fuck me. It just... All the questions that you have.

    27. KDr. K2:15:44

        Uh, the, I, I, I think these guys... Yeah, the, I, I think, 'cause I, I mean, I'm, I'm pr- super familiar with Joe's work and, and as familiar you can be without going through it.

    28. CBConnor Beaton2:15:53

        Yeah.

    29. KDr. K2:15:53

        Um, and, and, you know, learning about Connor. But, like, I mean, I, I, I think I g- I guess I have to now. [laughs] This is the gravitational pull.

    30. CBConnor Beaton2:16:02

        Watch, next year we'll be back and he'll be like, "It's relationships." [laughs]

Episode duration: 2:21:17