5 Exercises From Stoicism To Improve Your Life | Massimo Piggliuci | Modern Wisdom Podcast 170

1. 0:00 – 0:23

   Why Stoicism starts with what’s “up to you” (Epictetus’ core premise)

   1. MPMassimo Pigliucci0:00

      Epictetus says, "Some things are up to you and other things are not up to you." And then he lists some... the things that are up to you, and then he lists the things that are not up to you. And then he says, "You should be concerning yourself with the first one and not the second one." Which is pretty sound advice. If something... if there's nothing you can do about something, you might as well ignore it because what are you gonna do about it?

2. 0:23 – 4:17

   Why Stoicism is having a modern resurgence (and why other philosophies aren’t)

   1. CWChris Williamson0:23

      It seems like stoicism is kind of similar to the hot new girl in school. You know, that everyone's interested in. She's just arrived here, and everyone's thinking, "Oh, she's I want a bit of her. Everyone else seems to be interested in her." So, what is it about stoicism that's giving us this resurgence in the modern era? I'm not seeing waves of books being written about a resurgence of Confucianism or Taoism. You know, what is it about stoicism that's, that's made it the po- hot new girl?

   2. MPMassimo Pigliucci0:56

      Yeah, that's an interesting question. Well, of course, um, as far as hot new girls go, stoicism is about 24 centuries old. Um, so it's pretty hot.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:04

      She's, she's aging well.

   4. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:06

      She's aging definitely very well.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:08

      (laughs)

   6. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:09

      Um, I also want to make a point, a, a, actually a, uh, comment on your observation that, you know, why stoicism and not a lot of other philosophies. I've hav- I've seen since, especially since this COVID, um, brouhaha started, and this, this, this whole mess has started, I have seen a lot of articles, uh, on other philosophies, um, including Buddhism, Taoism, uh, uh, Confucianism, uh, uh... And, and if we go to the Western philosophies, also Epicureanism. But you're, you're right. Those are the exceptions. Um, the, the overwhelming majority of things that I see are, uh, uh, is about Stoicism. I think it's for two reasons, and I, I think there are actually two different reasons, depending on whether we're talking about other, uh, Eastern, uh, sorry, other Western philosophies or Eastern philosophies. Um, Eastern philosophies are just not very Western-friendly. That's one way to put it. Meaning that unless you grew up in... and vice versa, of course. Western, Western philosophies are not Eastern-friendly. But it... meaning that if you grew up with a certain, you know, uh, language, background, culture, et cetera, et cetera, uh, it is less likely that, uh, something that obviously comes from a very different language and background is going to speak to you. Like, for instance, when I... before I got into Stoicism, I was actually exploring a number of, uh, possible philosophies of life, and I, of course, checked out Buddhism, because... which is reasonably well, uh, you know, known and practiced even in the, in the West, although the Western version is significantly different from the original one. And it just didn't speak to me. I mean, I recognized... so intellectually, I recognized the, the, what they're talking about. I, I know what they're talking about. I, I appreciated their ethics, et cetera, et cetera, but the language, the examples, the, the, the way of, uh, you know, the writings is just... eh, it didn't click. And then I read Epictetus, and I said, "Holy cow, how did I never hear about this guy before?" I mean, this guy clicked immediately. And as I said, I sus- I suspect it's the same the other way around if you go West or East. Of course, with plenty of exceptions. I mean, How To Be a Stoic, the first book that I wrote about Stoicism has been published in Japan and Korea and China. So, it's not like e- th- there are no- there's no audience, but it certainly is a fraction compared to Confucianism or Buddhism and so on and so forth. So, I think that's part of the explanation in terms of Western, uh, readings that you might have encountered. Now, the interesting thing is, well, why not Epicureanism or... You know, there's a little bit more about

   7. CWChris Williamson3:35

      Cynicism or whatever.

   8. MPMassimo Pigliucci3:36

      ... essentialism. Yeah, cynicism. Well, cynicism is pretty tough to practice, for one thing. Um, the reason why it's-

   9. CWChris Williamson3:40

      Living out of a pot and, and just sort of...

   10. MPMassimo Pigliucci3:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson3:44

       You and a couple of rags on the side of the road, yeah.

   12. MPMassimo Pigliucci3:47

       Right. It, it doesn't cost a lot of money for... to practice, uh, uh, cynicism. That's, you know, that's a upside. Uh, so there is one book that came out recently on Epicureanism, this was before the, the pandemics, by a colleague of mine, Katherine Wilson, actually here at City University of New York. Uh, you know, in a book that I co-edited recently called The How To Live A Good Life, there is a chapter on Epicureanism. But yes, there's certainly the exception. The... most of what you hear about is Stoicism. I think it's for a couple of important

3. 4:17 – 5:48

   Stoicism was forged in turmoil—and fits today’s uncertainty

   1. MPMassimo Pigliucci4:17

      reasons. It's, it's not just by chance. Um, first of all, because Stoicism particularly speaks to... although, although one can use it no matter what the situation, no matter what the personal, you know, conditions, it definitely speaks to, uh, difficult times. It was born in difficult times. Uh, it was born during the Hellenistic period, uh, between the death of Alexander the Great and the beginning of the Roman Empire. That was a major, uh, time of turmoil in the Mediterranean area. Things were... big changes that nobody seen f- s- saw coming, and people felt like they didn't have control over what, what the hell was going on there. Um, so that's what... that's, that's the environment in which Stoicism was forged, and, uh, it still speaks today to that kind of stuff. And, you know, we are living in that kind of situation. Obviously, particularly with the COVID, um, you know, uh, pandemic, but even before. I mean, Stoicism has seen a resurgence over the last 20 years or so. And even before, and wh- why? Well, you know, think about it. Over the last century, we went through two world wars, not one, all right? Um, we are looking at gro- at the possibility of global climate collapse. We are still, uh, uh, threatened constantly by nuclear ani- annihilation. So, it's like, you know, there's been a lot of stuff going on (laughs) , um, that, that sort of makes these times pretty similar to the ones, um, uh, during the Hellenistic period. So, that's one reason. The other reason is because unlike a lot of other philosophies,

4. 5:48 – 11:06

   Stoicism’s competitive advantage: practice, not armchair theory

   1. MPMassimo Pigliucci5:48

      including Epicureanism, Aristotelianism, and so on and so forth, Stoicism actually comes with a lot of practical advice, practical exer- ac- actually exer- actual exercises you can do in, in, you know, day-to-day, week to... by week. Aristotle's, uh, ethics, for instance, uh, the Nicomachean Ethics is the book where... the major book where Aristotle p- uh, put forth these, these ethics. It's very interesting from a sort of theoretical perspective, but-... and Aristotle wasn't interested in, in, uh, living that as a philosophy of life, and so he didn't give any particular, you know, actual ground rules or, you know, "What do you... Okay, what am I going to do about this?" Epicurus, Epicurus got a little closer, but even he was not, not that interested, for one thing, in proselytizing. He wasn't really writing, uh, that much about, you know, how to put this into practice. It was kind of general advice. Uh, one of the things that distinguishes Stoicism is the fact that there is a lot of emphasis on the practice. I mean, if you don't practice, you're not doing anything. And Stoics are very clear about this. Epictetus, uh, says several times in the Discourses to his students, like, you know, "If you guys are here just for the theory, you're wasting your time and mine."

   2. CWChris Williamson6:55

      Yeah. It's, um... It's interesting to see some of the surface-level information that I, I come across online on the internet about different philosophies, both ancient and, and modern. And, um, you're right. Some of them appear to be s- ka- just thought experiments from an armchair, and then others-

   3. MPMassimo Pigliucci7:17

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson7:17

      ... appear to be, uh, thinking tools to be weaponized, almost.

   5. MPMassimo Pigliucci7:24

      Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, so let me gi- give you an example. So I have a, a close colleague and, and friend, um, uh, who is a existential- existentialist philosophers. And existentialism actually has been... You, you might have seen coming, you know, popping up, especially now for instance, uh, in the middle of the pandemics, uh, one of the best-selling books, uh, is, uh, um, Camus' The Plague, not surprisingly, right? (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson7:50

      Yeah.

   7. MPMassimo Pigliucci7:51

      Um, although I have actually read recently, just like a couple of days ago that people are running out... You know, pr- uh, uh, presses are running out of copies of Marcus Aurelius Meditations and, uh-

   8. CWChris Williamson8:00

      Wow.

   9. MPMassimo Pigliucci8:00

      ... and Seneca's writings. Yeah. That's, that's amazing. That's, uh, really amazing. Now the problem is you read the existentialists and yes, as a general framework, that sounds... that's, that's interesting. There, there are some things to really think about and, and sort of they might be helpful in practice. But it's not like the existentialists actually laid out a coherent philosophy of life to follow. In fact, they kind of on purpose refused to do so. Most of them actually rejected even the, the label li- existential, including Camus. So and, and most of them wrote novels, not philosophical treatises, right? So you do get an, uh, get... what they're getting at. You get the idea. Um, but it's... You know, you get to the end of the novel and you say, "Okay, now what? Uh, uh, how do I, how do I, how do I go existential here? Do I just start, you know, drinking a lot of coffee and, and smoking a lot of cigarettes? Uh, or is there something else to it?" And, you know, I'm of course teasing to some extent. (laughs) Uh, you might want to talk to my friend, Skye Cleary about it. She, she might have different ideas. But nevertheless, you know, that was one of the things that, um, that I found not particularly appealing, you know, where... in a philosophy of life, where if I can understand the point sort of at an abstract level, but then I immediately wonder, "Okay, and now what am I supposed to do about it?" Uh, then, then, then seem to be... that seems to be an issue.

   10. CWChris Williamson9:23

       Yeah. It's the, um, the very fancy app that you've just downloaded onto your phone, that looks great and sounds wonderful in principle, and for some people it might work, but for you, you just... you open it up and you're like, "I don't understand how any of this happens."

   11. MPMassimo Pigliucci9:37

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson9:37

       So what I want to try and do, I'd love to get you back on and talk about the history of Stoicism, how it came about. And as the listeners will know, I went to Athens for my birthday and I stood in the Stoa Poikile...

   13. MPMassimo Pigliucci9:52

       Nice. Nice.

   14. CWChris Williamson9:52

       ... which is where Stoicism was founded by Zeno of Citium.

   15. MPMassimo Pigliucci9:57

       Yes.

   16. CWChris Williamson9:57

       Yes.

   17. MPMassimo Pigliucci9:58

       That's right.

   18. CWChris Williamson9:58

       See, I've been doing my research, Massimo.

   19. MPMassimo Pigliucci10:01

       Apparently. (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson10:01

       I've been doing my research ready for you. Flew all the way to Athens on my birthday, ready for this podcast. Um-

   21. MPMassimo Pigliucci10:07

       That's an expensive bit of research, but, you know, sure.

   22. CWChris Williamson10:10

       (laughs) It was painful. It was painful, obviously. Um, I'd love to get you back on to do that. But what I really want to do today, especially given the fact that we're in a period of turmoil, people are pivoting within their life, there's a lot of uncertainty, people require more robustness, more resilience, all that sort of stuff. I want to... I want to really try and get into the nuts and bolts of what are the principles that underpin Stoicism that people need to understand to give them the foundational knowledge, and then let's talk about some of these exercises. Let's talk about how people can take these principles of Stoicism and apply them so that hopefully tomorrow, if they come up against a difficult situation, they might be able to use it a little bit. And then that domain of competence hopefully will grow and grow and grow. And then maybe we finish off with some, uh, some cool book recommendations, certainly some of which will be... will be yours, and then some other reading, people who want to get stuck into it. So-

   23. MPMassimo Pigliucci11:01

       Sure.

   24. CWChris Williamson11:01

       ... where do we start? Stoicism 101, where do we begin?

5. 11:06 – 16:56

   Stoicism 101: the four cardinal virtues as a moral checklist

   1. MPMassimo Pigliucci11:06

      Well, let's, let's start with a couple of the, the basic principles that are immediately applicable to, you know, people's lives. Um, so there are two of them that I think we shou- we could start with. One is the, uh, the four cardinal virtues. So the Stoics, um, recognized four fundamental virtues, meaning character traits, meaning things that you need to work on in order to become a better human being. And the notion was that... is that you use these four as kind of, uh, almost as a compass to navigate your life, a moral compass to navigate your life. Basically, everything you do, you should be asking yourself, "Okay, how does that square against the four cardinal virtues?" So it's kind of a checklist, right? Okay. Check, check one, check two, check three, check four. So the four cardinal virtues are practical wisdom, courage, justice, and temperance. Practical wisdom is the one that I'm going to spend a couple minutes on because it's the one that usually people have trouble understanding, and also it's the one that really doesn't roll off your tongue.

   2. CWChris Williamson12:08

      Hmm.

   3. MPMassimo Pigliucci12:08

      Practical wisdom, it's like, "Whatever." Um, the In- the, the Greek term is actually phronesis and, um...Essentially, this is the knowledge of what is truly good for you and, and what is truly bad for you. Now, we grow up with certain ideas about what is good for us and what is not good for us, right? Those ideas come from society at large, from our parents, from our, you know, friends, and so on and so forth. So for instance, a good number of Westerners would think that what is good for you is, you know, um, a good job, you know, a good career, um, certain amount of money, health, you know, a good relationship, some friends. You know, it's that sort of stuff. For the Stoics, that's not quite the case. All of those things are preferred, meaning that if you have them, that's great, uh, but really, they're not what is truly good for you. The only thing that is truly good for you is good judgment, is arriving at good judgment about situations. Um, why is that? Well, because all of those other things that, that, that I just mentioned, you may gain or lose at any time in your life, right? You might gain a new relationship and it's great, and then you lose it. Or you might make money, and then you lose it. And you might get a job, and then you get fired, you know, that sort ... All that sort of stuff is not really under your control. It's stuff that happens. And sure, you can work on it, you can make it more likely to happen, for sure. Um, but ultimately, it doesn't really depend on, on you. And in fact, the value of all those other things really depends on how you behave with ... in, in respect to those things. So for instance, having money, it's not an unqualified good. It is good if you use the money well, but if you don't, if you use your money to, you know, corrupt politicians so that you have your own way and write your own laws, for instance, that's not good. Then, then money's not a good thing. Um, so in other words, the notion is that the, that the fundamental thing that is good for you is good judgment, because good judgment is what allows you to use everything else in the best possible way. Similarly, or you know, I should say conversely, the only really bad thing that ... for you is bad judgment, okay? So it's the opposite of it. Why? Well, because bad judgment is going to make you squander your money, you know, lose your relationships, lose your friends, lose your job, and so on and so forth. So judgment is really the only thing that, according to the Stoics, that is, that is important, that is crucial. And so the, um, the first cardinal virtue, practical wisdom, basically reminds you constantly that the only thing you need to work on is your judgment or constantly improve it. So whatever makes you, makes ... refines your judgment, makes you better, better, it's good. And whatever makes it worse, it's bad. That's the first virtue.

   4. CWChris Williamson15:03

      Got it.

   5. MPMassimo Pigliucci15:04

      Second, courage. Courage is not, you know, necessarily physical courage or the courage to rush into battle or anything like that. It's moral courage. So it's the courage to do the right thing, right? That's related to the third cro- cardinal virtue, which is justice. What is the right thing to do as far as other people are concerned? That, that comes down to justice. You need to, to treat people justly, fairly, as you would like to be treated essentially, right? Notice the difference between the first and the third virtue. The first virtue, practical wisdom, is about what is good for you. The third one, justice, is about what is good for other people in terms of how you behave toward other people.

   6. CWChris Williamson15:44

      I'm gonna guess those, those two come into conflict quite a lot.

   7. MPMassimo Pigliucci15:47

      Well, that's one of the things that you have to, you know, to, to, to handle, learn to handle. And then the fourth virtue is temperance. Temperance is often understood as doing as little as possible, but that's not quite right. Uh, temperance means doing things in the right measure, neither too much nor too little. Okay, so let me give you a spe- a specific example, uh, where we can see all the four virtues working simultaneously, because that's the notion, that anything important that you're gonna do, you should ask yourself, "Well, is this practically wise? Is it courageous? Is it just, and is it temperate?" And if the answer is no to any of those things, then don't do it.

   8. CWChris Williamson16:25

      Oh, God. My decision-making is going to take a little bit of time if I ... Like, what do I want for breakfast tomorrow? Oh, God. Are these-

   9. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:32

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson16:32

       ... are these-

   11. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:33

       You know, believe it or not-

   12. CWChris Williamson16:33

       ... Cocoa Pops-

   13. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:34

       ... th- that actually applies even to things like breakfast.

   14. CWChris Williamson16:37

       (sighs) Oh.

   15. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:37

       Um, so-

   16. CWChris Williamson16:37

       I love breakfast.

   17. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:39

       I know. I ... Yeah. I, I, I actually, I don't have breakfast. I usually have just a fruit, but ... and coffee, of course.

   18. CWChris Williamson16:45

       Yes.

   19. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:46

       Definitely coffee.

   20. CWChris Williamson16:47

       Coffee is-

   21. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:47

       All right.

   22. CWChris Williamson16:47

       Coffee meets all of the four criteria.

   23. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:50

       Yeah. Absolutely. (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson16:51

       Absolutely. Thank you.

   25. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:52

       No problem.

   26. CWChris Williamson16:52

       It's div- ... It's essentially, I think coffee, uh, to a Stoic would probably be divine.

6. 16:56 – 21:15

   Applying the virtues: standing up to a boss (and temperance as ‘right measure’)

   1. MPMassimo Pigliucci16:56

      Yeah. So it's, it's ... It really cut- ... comes pretty close. Now, so let's say that you are at work and, um, a coworker is being harassed by your, by your boss and then the question is, well, should you intervene or not? Should, should, sh- ... Do you take the, the, the side of your coworker and basically tell your boss, "Hey, you know, slow down here." Well, let's app- apply the four virtues. The first one is, as I said, practical wisdom. Well, practical wisdom, I put it in terms ... I present it in terms of judgment, but another way to present it is in terms of improving your character, okay? Because judgment and character goes, go well to, you know, go hand-in-hand essentially. If you have a better and better judgment, then that means your character is improving, you're becoming a better person. And vice versa, if you have bad judgment, your character is going down the drain. So if you think of it in terms of character, well, is it good for your character? Of course it is, because you're doing the right thing by your coworker. That is good for your character, that improves your character. If you decide not to do the right thing, that undermines your own character, that undermines your ... you know, it makes you a slightly less, less good person, right? So think of it that way. Is it, is this thing making me a better person or is, or a less good person? Well, clearly intervening makes you a better person. So the first term is a yes. Or is it courageous?It is because we're talking about your boss. So your boss could, could not take, might not take it well, and he might retaliate, and you might los- lose your job or at least get on the s- wrong side of, of the boss. So yes, it does take courage. Uh, what about justice? Is it the just thing to do with, w- as, as far as your coworker is concerned? Yes, obviously, because if you were in, in, in, in the coworker's situation, you would want somebody to step in and help you out. Right? So it's, you're treating him or her-

   2. CWChris Williamson18:53

      Three for three so far.

   3. MPMassimo Pigliucci18:54

      ... yeah, three for three. Now what about temperance? Well, so temperance tells you that you want to do things in the right measure, so that means you don't want to just mumble under your breath about something so that your boss doesn't actually hear it, 'cause that's not enough. You haven't done anything at that point, right? You appeased your conscience, but you haven't done anything. By the same token, however, you also don't want to rush to your boss and punch him on the nose because that seems-

   4. CWChris Williamson19:21

      (laughs)

   5. MPMassimo Pigliucci19:21

      ... like a little bit of an overreaction given the situation.

   6. CWChris Williamson19:23

      Yep.

   7. MPMassimo Pigliucci19:23

      Right?

   8. CWChris Williamson19:24

      Yep.

   9. MPMassimo Pigliucci19:25

      So temperance tells you that probably the right thing to do is to politely and, but firmly say something along the lines of, "Hey, you know, let's talk about this situation. You know, there, there are, there's, uh, different sides to this story," blah, blah, whatever this, the thing is. So all the four virtues concur. Seneca says at one point that the, the, the, the four virtues are like a concert of different instruments, and they have to play in unison.

   10. CWChris Williamson19:50

       Mm.

   11. MPMassimo Pigliucci19:51

       There has to be no discordant notes there. So all of the, all of the four in this case will tell you, "Yes, do it. Go ahead." Now, more often than not, um, the virtues will t- at least one of the virtues will say, "Nah."

   12. CWChris Williamson20:05

       (laughs)

   13. MPMassimo Pigliucci20:05

       "No, that's not a good thing to do." And therefore you want to refrain. In fact, Stoics tend to refrain a lot from things. It's like, um, you know the famous commercial, you know, just, just do it.

   14. CWChris Williamson20:16

       Mm.

   15. MPMassimo Pigliucci20:17

       Yeah. It's, it's, it's kind of the opposite. Don't just do it.

   16. CWChris Williamson20:19

       Just wait.

   17. MPMassimo Pigliucci20:20

       Stop and think about it. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson20:21

       Yeah, just wait.

   19. MPMassimo Pigliucci20:22

       You know, so slow down and, and think about it, because as it turns out, um, so S- so s- uh, Socrates, who was a, um, the major inspiration for the Stoics, um, used to say that he, that he had a, a daemon on his shoulder. A daemon is a, is a demon, and essentially you can think of it as an externalized, uh, version of your conscience, okay? And, um, and he was asked, uh, "So what's, h- how does your daemon advises you to do things and not, or not to do things?" And, and, uh, Socrates said, um, "Most of the times just as a single word, no." (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson20:59

       (laughs)

   21. MPMassimo Pigliucci20:59

       "Don't do it." (laughs) Because if you think about it, a lot of things, we get in trouble simply because we do, we rush into doing things that, um, um, upon thinking about it is like, "Nah, that was not a good idea."

   22. CWChris Williamson21:12

       Mm.

   23. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:12

       "That was, that was not a, that was not a good thing."

7. 21:15 – 23:59

   Why ‘stoic’ got misunderstood: endurance and emotions (not suppression)

   1. CWChris Williamson21:15

      Do you think that the hesitancy or the measuredness of, uh, not br-

   2. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:23

      (coughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson21:23

      ... brashly committing to actions, is that why... Because to be Stoic actually has taken on a w- a meaning of its own, right?

   4. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:35

      Right.

   5. CWChris Williamson21:35

      When you say to people in the modern world, "That guy over there, he's quite Stoic," with, you know, it kind of means someone who's stiff upper lip. Us Brits would probably be, you know, a fairly good example.

   6. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:45

      Absolutely. Absolutely. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson21:45

      Um, stiff upper lip and, uh, y- he's fairly sort of resilient, maybe a little bit surly as well, you know? He's in the corner kind of scowling-

   8. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:52

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson21:53

      ... scowling at everyone.

   10. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:54

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson21:55

       Um, i- is that why, is that why you, you think-

   12. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:57

       Yeah, I think it-

   13. CWChris Williamson21:58

       ... you believe in-

   14. MPMassimo Pigliucci21:58

       I think it is. And so, you know, that's a stereotype, and I, and I think it's an accurate stereotype, but like many stereotypes, they do have a s- you know, a core, r- a root.

   15. CWChris Williamson22:06

       A kernel of truth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   16. MPMassimo Pigliucci22:07

       Exactly. There's a kernel of truth. In fact, the two things that are stereotypical about the Stoics are the one that you just m- mentioned, and then the other one is that, that, that we go around, um, suppressing our emotions, right, which, which are related, like s- stiff upper lip and then suppression of emotions. Well, the reason people say that, got that impression about the Stoics is because the Stoics are in fact in the business of enduring things. Endurance is a Stoic value, right? If there is nothing you can do about something, then what are you complaining? W- wha- what's the point of complaining? You're just gonna feel worse. Uh, you're just gonna make things worse because not only you cannot actually address the, uh, the, the, the specific problem, but now you also making it worse in your own mind by, as a modern cognitive behavioral therapist would put it, by catastrophizing it, by, by making it into s- this gigantic thing that, that you say, "Oh my gosh. This, I can't believe this is happening." It's like, what do you mean you can't believe it? It's, it is happening. It's a fact.

   17. CWChris Williamson23:03

       (laughs)

   18. MPMassimo Pigliucci23:03

       So in what, in what sense can you not possibly believe it, right? Um, so that's one thing. And then the, the, the thing, the bit about the emotions is it is true that the Stoics, the Stoics don't, don't want to s- suppress emotions partly because it's a hopeless thing. It's, you, you simply cannot suppress emotions. Um, what, what we want to do is to, um, train ourselves to move as far as possible from what we consider disruptive emotions such as anger, fear, um, hatred, things like that, and to, uh, mindfully cultivate what we consider positive emotions, and these include love and joy and a sense of justice, you know, a sense of the right thing to do, you know, that, that sort of stuff. So if you turn those two, uh, tendencies, or two, those two attitudes into a stereotype, then you get the, the stiff upper lip with no emotion kind of stuff.

   19. CWChris Williamson23:59

       I get it.

8. 23:59 – 35:34

   The ‘dichotomy of control’: what it really means (and why the name misleads)

   1. MPMassimo Pigliucci23:59

      But I wanted to go back to the practice. So I mentioned earlier on that, that there is a second, um, important bit of Stoic theory that has immediate practical application, and that is the so-called dichotomy of control. Uh, this is a modern term. This is, you don't find it in the ancient Stoic texts, and it's an unfortunate term. It was introduced by William Irvine in one of his early books on Stoicism a few years ago.And as much as I like Bill, I think he actually did a disservice there (laughs) , um, because people get, um, immediately the wrong idea when, when you, when you hear the term dichotomy of control. So the, the basic notion is, goes back to Epictetus, uh, right at the beginning of the Enchiridion, of the manual, uh, um, that he, that his student Arrian wrote based on his notes. Uh, Epictetus says, "Some things are up to you and other things are not up to you." And then he lists some, the things that are up to you and then he lists the things that are not up to you. And then he says, "You should be concerning yourself with the first one and not the second one," which is pretty sound advice. If something, if there's nothing you can do about something, you might as well ignore it-

   2. CWChris Williamson25:06

      Mm-hmm.

   3. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:06

      ... because what are you gonna do about it, right? (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson25:08

      Can, can you, um, remember any of the things that he says?

   5. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:11

      Absolutely. Yes.

   6. CWChris Williamson25:11

      Can you give us a couple from the, from the list?

   7. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:13

      Yes. Let's go through both lists, um, because those are, really tell you a lot, both about Stoic practice and Stoic, and Stoic, uh, sort of theory.

   8. CWChris Williamson25:21

      And this is, this is 2,500 years old, 2,600 years old?

   9. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:26

      It's about 200, uh, th- 24 hundre- t- 24 centuries, so two hundre- uh, 2,400 years the philosophy. Epictetus was more recent, he was, uh, he wrote the end of the f- e- so he was active at the end of the first century, uh, beginning of the second century, so it's about-

   10. CWChris Williamson25:39

       Ah, practically modern.

   11. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:41

       Yeah, practically modern.

   12. CWChris Williamson25:42

       Yeah, cool. So he just finished, he just finished it up, emailed it over. Right, cool.

   13. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:45

       It was just yesterday. That's right.

   14. CWChris Williamson25:46

       Cool.

   15. MPMassimo Pigliucci25:47

       Okay. So some things are up to us and other things are not up to us. What kinds of things? Epictetus actually makes a list and he says, "Okay, the only things that are up to you are the following: judgments, uh, you know, ex- ex- uh, explicit judgments, endorsed values, and decisions to act or not to act." That's pretty much it.

   16. CWChris Williamson26:11

       Oh, God. (laughs)

   17. MPMassimo Pigliucci26:12

       Or the en- Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson26:13

       That's not a big list. (laughs)

   19. MPMassimo Pigliucci26:14

       It's a, it's a pretty short list.

   20. CWChris Williamson26:16

       Okay. Okay.

   21. MPMassimo Pigliucci26:17

       Well, that makes it easier to practice if you think about it, right?

   22. CWChris Williamson26:19

       Okay. Yep.

   23. MPMassimo Pigliucci26:20

       'Cause you only have two- those four things to, to con- to concern yourself about. So what does he mean? So explicit judgments me- meaning, uh, the kinds of judgment that you actually endorse, you arrive that by reflection. So like, you know, it's good for me to have coffee in the morning. That's an explicit judgment. That's not, it's not something you do automatically or instinctively. You just say, "Yeah, this is a good thing for me." That's an explicit judgment. Endorsed values, uh, for instance, uh, sexism is bad. That's an endorsed value. Okay? That's, that's a, that's a, you telling yourselves like, "No, you know what? I might have, you know, inadvertently engaged in, in behaviors that may come across as sexist, but I actually think on reflection that sexism is a bad thing. I think that, you know, women ought to be treated a- li- as, as men." That's an endorsed value as opposed to an implicit value. 'Cause implicit values, they are, they're more difficult to control. You may be doing, uh, certain things, you know, behaving a certain way that you don't actually realize. But the explicitly endorsed values, those are the ones that you obviously tell yourself, "Yeah, this is a good thing to do or not a good thing to do." And then third, decisions to act or not to act. So for instance, it's like, I don't know, 2:30 in the afternoon here in New York. There's sun coming in the, my, in my window. It's getting warm. So, you know, I feel like a beer, but I'm not gonna act on it because I'm talking.

   24. CWChris Williamson27:41

       Do it. Massimo-

   25. MPMassimo Pigliucci27:42

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson27:42

       ... we're all friend, we're all friends here. Just-

   27. MPMassimo Pigliucci27:44

       We're all friends.

   28. CWChris Williamson27:44

       Let's party.

   29. MPMassimo Pigliucci27:45

       But I'm not gonna do it.

   30. CWChris Williamson27:46

       Okay.
9. 35:34 – 39:19

   Does Stoicism create apathy? Apatheia as freedom from destructive emotion

   1. CWChris Williamson35:34

      Can, um, taking a philosophy like that lead people to apathy?

   2. MPMassimo Pigliucci35:41

      It's funny you mentioned the word apathy because one of the goals of Stoic practice is what the ancients, uh, uh, refer to as apatheia, which is a Greek word that in fact is the root of apathy, or the word... the English word apathy. But no, that's... the meaning is different. Apatheia was not apathy as we understand it today. Um, the, the root, uh, it... the, the answer is in the root. So apatheia is made of two words, e-a, the first, you know, A, and patheia. A means without. Okay? And patheia means, uh, negative emotions. So to be apathetic for a Stoic doesn't mean that you don't give a, a crap about things. It means that you're not disturbed by negative emotions. You don't have anxiety, you don't have fear, you don't have hatred.

   3. CWChris Williamson36:30

      I much prefer, I much prefer the Athenian-... definition-

   4. MPMassimo Pigliucci36:35

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson36:35

      ... of the word.

   6. MPMassimo Pigliucci36:36

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson36:36

      That we need ... There's no, um ... there's no modern equivalent-

   8. MPMassimo Pigliucci36:41

      No, there-

   9. CWChris Williamson36:42

      ... of that term. Resilience isn't it, robustness isn't it.

   10. MPMassimo Pigliucci36:46

       Yeah, no. Nope. No, there's no other equivalent.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:48

       We need, uh, we need to make a word for that. I think that's really cool.

   12. MPMassimo Pigliucci36:51

       Yeah. So but now ba- let me go back and answer your question. So no, the notion is not to, uh, you know, not give a damn or sort of be layback and all that sort of stuff. The notion is simply to make, what I would think, is an adult, uh, consideration, choice and say, "Look, I'm gonna do my best. So I'm not gonna be apathetic in the sense, in the modern sense of the, of the word. I'm gonna w- do my best. But then I have to accept that things are not gonna ... I'm not a child anymore. I have to accept that things sometimes are not gonna work my w- my way and if that happens, I'm not gonna act like a child, I'm not gonna throw a tantrum. I'm not gonna get upset. I'm gonna say, "All right, next round," you know? "I'm gonna, I'm gonna do better next, next time around.""

   13. CWChris Williamson37:34

       On the, um, hopeful side, you've mentioned there about how you don't get the job, but you are hopeful or you are, um, almost certain, "I'll get it. I'll get the next one." What's the virtue of hope or the virtue of positivity toward oncoming events?

   14. MPMassimo Pigliucci37:51

       Yeah, that's a good question. Um, the Stoics are not into what we would today call positive psychology. Like, "Oh, yeah. Things are gonna go well."

   15. CWChris Williamson37:59

       Mm.

   16. MPMassimo Pigliucci37:59

       Th- Because you have no guarantee that things are gonna go well. That's, that's in fact the-

   17. CWChris Williamson38:03

       Yeah, you've gotta have this-

   18. MPMassimo Pigliucci38:04

       ... kind of the whole point.

   19. CWChris Williamson38:04

       You've gotta have both edges of the sword, right?

   20. MPMassimo Pigliucci38:06

       Right. But what you do have is you reason about the, the human predicament, predicament. You're, you're capable of reasoning about things. And you know that luck, who the Stoics actually personified as a, as a deity, right, as a, as a goddess-

   21. CWChris Williamson38:21

       Fortuna.

   22. MPMassimo Pigliucci38:22

       So For- Fortuna, right. And you know by th- that Fortuna, by her own nature, sometimes, you know, throws things at random. So sometimes you will go your way and sometimes you won't go your way. And the notion, uh, that Seneca particularly is, um, uh, puts forth in several of his writings is that the way to come to terms d- d- to, to a- approach the situation is to have Fortuna come to terms with you. You don't control Fortuna. Fortuna does whatever the hell she wants, right? But you make her come to terms with you because you are prepared ahead of time mindf- in a mindful fashion and say, "All right. I know that this is gonna have a 50/50 chance. But if it's not gonna work this time, then by virtue of that 50/50 chance, that means the next time around I'm gonna have also a 50/50 chance and one of these days I'm gonna get it."

   23. CWChris Williamson39:13

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MPMassimo Pigliucci39:13

       So it's not really optimism as much as a realistic understanding of what the situation is.

10. 39:19 – 45:06

    Luck, meritocracy, and compassion: from ‘unfortunates’ to ‘losers’

    1. CWChris Williamson39:19

       Um, you may be familiar with this, but Alain de Botton-

    2. MPMassimo Pigliucci39:23

       Yes.

    3. CWChris Williamson39:23

       ... from The Skills of Life, he has a wonderful bit. I've seen him give the same talk twice now on his, uh, his book An Emotional Education.

    4. MPMassimo Pigliucci39:31

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson39:31

       And you may be able to, uh, pad out this story that I'm about to tell a little, but I think he said that in ancient Athens, the people that were homeless, that were the beggars on the street, that were potentially sort of diseased and stuff like that, they were referred to as unfortunates. I think that that was the etymology of it, right? Unfor-

    6. MPMassimo Pigliucci39:52

       Yeah, that's right.

    7. CWChris Williamson39:52

       What was the Greek word?

    8. MPMassimo Pigliucci39:54

       Yeah, unfor- un- unf- unfortuna, uh, fortunatos, I think it's because- Okay. So-

    9. CWChris Williamson39:58

       So, yes.

    10. MPMassimo Pigliucci39:59

        ... they were referred to as unfortunates, um, and he rolls-

    11. CWChris Williamson40:02

        Yep.

    12. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:02

        ... the clock forward and we get ourselves into the 21st century.

    13. CWChris Williamson40:05

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:06

        What's the equivalent, for you people that are listening, I'm gonna give you a couple of seconds, what's the equivalent of an unfortunate in today's vernacular? It's a loser. That's what they call-

    15. CWChris Williamson40:16

        Right.

    16. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:16

        ... the people that don't ... that it's a loser. And what's-

    17. CWChris Williamson40:19

        Right.

    18. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:19

        ... happened, what Alain argues, and I, I think I believe I, I agree with, is that, um, in a meritocracy, which is what we say that we have now, equal chance, equal ability, all that stuff- Right.

    19. CWChris Williamson40:32

        Uh, not equal ability, equal opportunity, should I say. Um-

    20. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:35

        Right. Be founding. Yeah, yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson40:37

        (laughs)

    22. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:37

        In a, in a meritocracy, if the people who succeed are worthy of their successes, that also means that the people who fail are worthy of their failures. Yep. That's right.

    23. CWChris Williamson40:46

        And that shift from the unfortunate to the loser-

    24. MPMassimo Pigliucci40:53

        Yep.

    25. CWChris Williamson40:53

        ... I think is a real, a, a, a very easy way to see why society may be less empathetic toward the people who don't have-

    26. MPMassimo Pigliucci41:05

        Yeah. Yeah.

    27. CWChris Williamson41:06

        ... the, the, the haves and the have-nots.

    28. MPMassimo Pigliucci41:08

        Right. Yeah. And it is an incredibly unfortunate shift. Because I think the s- the ancient Greeks in general and the Stoics in particular were right about this, that it is a matter of fortune. Now, uh, meaning not that, um, that, that the outcome has nothing to do with your, with your efforts, of course it has. D- no question about it. And there are some people who are responsible for their own down- downfall because they do make bad decisions, you know, that this is a fact of human life. But those people, uh, include very rich people or very powerful people. I mean, the hi- history is replete with, you know, powerful and rich people who make really stupid or really bad decisions and then, you know, and that's their down- downfall. So it's not a question of abdicating responsibility. It's a qui- it's rather a question to understand that, that external events will hit people, even the best people, even the people that make the m- the m- the best effort. They w- they will be hit. Because Fortuna doesn't care. Fortuna is kind of a, you know, it's a, it's a random, it's a random thing.

    29. CWChris Williamson42:12

        (laughs) Fortuna can be-

    30. MPMassimo Pigliucci42:12

        And so-
11. 45:06 – 46:59

    Exercise 1: Dichotomy-of-control journaling (two columns before a challenge)

    1. CWChris Williamson45:06

       So let's get some exercises. Let's get some ways that people can apply some of the stuff we've spoken about and then some other principles as well. So you've already touched on one of them-

    2. MPMassimo Pigliucci45:17

       Right.

    3. CWChris Williamson45:17

       ... which is when something happens, when anything happens, try and work out whether it is or it is not within your control, right?

    4. MPMassimo Pigliucci45:26

       Yes, that's right. In fact, um, uh, with my friend and colleague, uh, Gregory Lopez, we have written a whole book of Stoic exercises. It's called, uh, A Handbook for, for New Stoics. I think in UK, the title is Living Like a Stoic or something like that. It's, I don't know for what reason they changed the title. It's confusing. But, um, but anyway, we, we actually, uh, put together a, an entire curriculum for it with 52 different exercises people can sample, uh, and see what works for them and what doesn't work for them. Yes.

    5. CWChris Williamson45:53

       Why don't you give us, why don't you give us your favorite five? Can you give us your top five?

    6. MPMassimo Pigliucci45:58

       Something like that, yeah. Something like that. So one of them is the one that we were, been talking about, and the dichotomy of control exercises can actually be done in the, in the following way. Let's say that you are about to do something, uh, the outcome of which is in doubt, l- such as the job interview that I was talking about before. Well, the way you do the exercise is that in the days before the actual event or the night before, whenever, whatever is convenient for you, whenever you think works for you, you literally sit down and write down, you, you put a piece of paper or, or a spreadsheet, and you get two columns, things under my control, things not under my control. (laughs) And then you start breaking down the situation and listening to yourself, the kind of stuff that is up to you and the kind of stuff that is not up to you. Um, and then the notion being that then on the next several days, you use, before the interview, you use that list to remind yourself. You go back to it and remind yourself to focus on the first column and, and prepare yourself about the second column. So that's one exercise.

12. 46:59 – 1:02:06

    Exercise 2: Evening review / philosophical journaling (three questions nightly)

    1. MPMassimo Pigliucci46:59

       Another one of my favorite exercises is the, uh, uh, sometimes referred to as the evening meditation, sometimes referred to as, uh, philosophical journaling because you can do it as a, as an actual journal, as writing, writing in a journal. That's the way I do it, but it doesn't have to be a, a journal. This is an exercise that comes, comes from several Stoics, in fact. Uh, Epictetus mentions, uh, explicitly this, this approach in The Enchiridion, and Seneca does it at the end of On Anger. And you can read the entire Meditations of Marcus Aurelius essentially as a journaling exercise because it was, it was his own philosophical diary. That's what it was. Now, the idea here is not to write the Meditations because not, we're no h- every, not everybody's is Marcus, Marcus Aurelius, and you know, we're not that good, uh, writers, and this is certainly not for publication. But the notion is, um, I tend to do it, I try to do it every night, but you could do it at least several times a week. It only takes a few minutes. You sit down, pick a moment before you go to bed. Don't do it in bed, otherwise you fall asleep. Before you go to bed, pick a moment where it's quiet and you can concentrate for a few minutes, and write down, uh, some thoughts about the major things that happened during the day, or even a single major thing that happened during the day. It doesn't have to be comprehensive. Um, and about that thing, ask yourself three questions. Number one, what did I do wrong? Number two, what did I do right? Number three, what could I do different if, differently if this, a similar situation arises again? So what's the point? The first question, um, what did I do wrong? The notion is not to, you know, beat yourself up and say, "Ah, I should've done this. I should've..." Because the past, uh-... is another one of those things that's not up to you. It's outside of your control. You can't change it. You can't go back and, and redo the thing, right? No matter how many times you actually rerun the thing in your, in d, uh, what happened in your mind, you cannot change it. In fact, your stocks would say that's a waste of emotional energy, because you're only going to feel bad about it and that's it. Instead, however, what you do want to do is to learn from your, from your mistakes. Right? So you want to have, you want to write down, it's like, "Okay, this is what I did wrong," because you want to pay attention to it. And then Seneca says, "Immediately forgive yourself." You have the power to forgive yourself. So write it down and then say, "Okay, that's done. Out. I, I learned my lesson, I hope not to do it again, but that's it." Second, what did I do right? Well, part of the reason for doing that is because pat yourself on the back if you do something right, great, um, you know, this is, this is progress. You're making, you're going in the right direction. But also because now you have two points of reference, what you did wrong, what you did right. And the notion is that day by day, you want to move as far away from the first one and as close as possible to the second one. So you want to do fewer and fewer wrong things and more and more right things, right? And so if you keep it in mind as two, sort of two posts, essentially, two reference points, that's helpful. The third thing is, you know, what could I do, have done better? Why engage in the hypothetical? Because, you know, we all like to think of our lives as extremely varied and unpredictable and all sorts of interesting things is going to happen, but usually, that's not the case. We kind of live the same life every day, you know. You, you get up, you go to, to work, you see the same people-

    2. CWChris Williamson50:26

       Especially during lockdown, we lived, we lived the exact-

    3. MPMassimo Pigliucci50:29

       Yes. (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson50:29

       ... same life every day-

    5. MPMassimo Pigliucci50:30

       Especially- (laughs)

    6. CWChris Williamson50:30

       ... during lockdown, yeah.

    7. MPMassimo Pigliucci50:31

       Especially now. But even outside, right? So you go to work, you see the same people, you do the same k-kind of things. Then you get back home, you see the same people, you see the same kind of things, and you go out during the weekend and you d- you see friends, those are the same people and you do the same kind of things. Of course, there is variation, of course, sometimes you do something truly novel, but mostly, we tend to be a routine kind of people, you know, we, we do the same thing over and over, which means that it pays off to pay attention when you actually did something wrong because you can, you're gonna start saying, "Okay, well, this one didn't work out very well, but I know this kind of situation is going to happen again, or something very similar is going to happen again, so let me think ahead. The next time that something like this happen, what, what am I gonna do?" And so I can give you a small example of how this works. This is a trivial thing. This, this is the thing that happened years ago. I was walking down in, you know, lower Manhattan. I was with a friend and I was obviously not looking very carefully where I was going. So this other woman who was also look- not looking where she was going (laughs) , so, bumps into me and she had a large St- Starbucks coffee thingy and it's went all over the place. Now, nothing terrible happened. We were both surprised and we both said, you know, "Sorry," and then b- but we both then kept moving, right? And then I thought about it later and I said, "You know, I think that was mostly my fault. I was paying less attention than she was."

    8. CWChris Williamson51:56

       (laughs)

    9. MPMassimo Pigliucci51:56

       So it would have been nice to actually offer her to pay for the coffee. That's, it's a small thing, it's like a couple of b- well, it's Starbucks, so it's more than a couple of bucks, but anyway, um, it's not that much and it would have been a nice gesture to do. The moment was passed, who knows where that woman was, so that's done. But that kind of situation can happen again. You can bump into people and if the next time you're prepared and you say, "You know, if something like that happens again, next time this is what's g- what, what's gonna happen, this is what I'm gonna do," then you're prepared. And Seneca tells you over and over, a prepared mind deals better with situations than an unprepared mind.

    10. CWChris Williamson52:35

        I love that.

    11. MPMassimo Pigliucci52:35

        So that's the point of the exercise.

    12. CWChris Williamson52:37

        The, um, preparing for things by using existing experiences, I've been discussing this an awful, awful lot recently and, um, the analogy that I always use is, if I told you, Massimo, that you were going to fall into some quicksand a week from now, right now, at 7:00, th- three minutes to 8:00 PM on a Wednesday night or whatever it is, um, and I said, "You've got a week to prepare," and you spend the next week, you go online, you research strategies to get out of quicksand, what's the most efficient way, you might even-

    13. MPMassimo Pigliucci53:11

        Right.

    14. CWChris Williamson53:11

        ... dress, dress slightly differently, ready for the quicksand, and then you'd be counting down on you. The difference between that and me just pushing you into some quicksand now and saying, "Good luck-"

    15. MPMassimo Pigliucci53:21

        Right.

    16. CWChris Williamson53:21

        ... the, the difference is-

    17. MPMassimo Pigliucci53:22

        It's huge, right?

    18. CWChris Williamson53:23

        Yeah, ab- ab- absolutely-

    19. MPMassimo Pigliucci53:24

        Huge.

    20. CWChris Williamson53:24

        ... because w- we really, really struggle to make rational decisions when we're in the moment.

    21. MPMassimo Pigliucci53:29

        Mm-hmm.

    22. CWChris Williamson53:29

        And, um, the listeners will be familiar, Michael Malice said to any of his fans who were struggling, he's also living in Brooklyn, in New York, and, uh, he said to any of his fans on his show, he's got these hundreds of thousands of listeners, anyone who's suffering with depression or suicidal ideation, when you're in your best mind, write yourself a letter. Write a letter to you when you are in the depths of feeling down and feeling depressed and tell yourself what you're gonna do. Tell yourself-

    23. MPMassimo Pigliucci53:55

        Mm-hmm.

    24. CWChris Williamson53:55

        ... to ring a friend, tell yourself to go for a walk, tell yourself to get a glass of water and do the things that make you feel good, because that person then is you at your best, at your most rational-

    25. MPMassimo Pigliucci54:04

        Right. Exactly.

    26. CWChris Williamson54:05

        ... with all of your faculties intact.

    27. MPMassimo Pigliucci54:06

        Exactly.

    28. CWChris Williamson54:06

        Whereas you when you're feeling depressed, when you're feeling down, that's you in quicksand.

    29. MPMassimo Pigliucci54:11

        That's right.

    30. CWChris Williamson54:11

        And it's very difficult to strategize whilst you're also executing.
13. 1:02:06 – 1:08:35

    Exercise 3: Reframing obstacles + ‘challenge’ mindset (and the lockdown fridge story)

    1. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:02:06

       Uh, so, so let me give you an example of, of what, what I'm talking about. Um, as you know, we're on a lockdown here. Um, with my wife, we are gonna reach day 40 this coming Friday.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:02:18

       Wow.

    3. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:02:20

       Yeah. So it's, it's going... Yeah, it's interesting situation. Okay. Now, a couple weeks ago, um, in the middle of this thing, um, we, we opened the refrigerator and the refrigerator is not working anymore. It's like, hmm, not a good thing in the middle of a pandemic.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:02:35

       It's bad timing, right?

    5. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:02:37

       It's bad timing, for one thing, because, of course, that literally means you cannot store, you know, reasonable quantity of, of food. Um, and also, our building, um, has a policy against delivery of furniture for security reasons during this period.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:02:53

       Mm-hmm.

    7. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:02:53

       While in, while in lockdown, new furniture, new appliances cannot be delivered. End of story. Okay. So now normally, and by normally I mean, you know, like several years ago, I would have gotten upset and I would have said, "Oh goddamn it, it's like, you know, this thing is like, not only we got a pandemic, but now and... we, we can't eat." It's like, "Oh, what are we gonna do?" Blah, blah, blah. Instead, the very first thing, you know, we looked at each other 'cause my, my wife also is pretty aware, um, of these historic principles. So we're looking at each other and said, "Okay, what's actionable here? What is under our control?" Well, the first thing is to redo the shopping list, moving away from stuff that, uh, needs refrigeration to, you know, dry foods like pasta, uh, canned foods like beans and things like that. Number one, that was the first, the very first thing. Number two, let's call the landlady and see what she says, 'cause she might have some ideas. May- this may have happened before, you know, for, for all I know. So we call and she says, "Well, um, I'm going to replace your refrigerator, but I can't do it now for the reasons that I just explained." You know, they can't be delivered, appliances can't be delivered. "But," she said, "I checked with the building and it turns out that small refrigerators," like, you know, dorm kind level refrigerators, "can be delivered. So I just ordered one for you and it's gonna come the next couple of days." That was it. Problem solved.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:04:13

       (laughs)

    9. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:04:14

       I mean, I still have the small refrigerator here because the big one-

    10. CWChris Williamson1:04:17

        Yeah.

    11. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:04:17

        ... is still not working.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:04:17

        Yeah. (laughs)

    13. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:04:18

        Um, and so now we switched to a, uh, a diet of, you know, that includes some fresh food and then-

    14. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

        Yeah.

    15. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:04:23

        ... a lot of-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:04:24

        Yeah.

    17. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:04:24

        ... dryer stuff and everything. And there was no getting upsetting, uh, upset. There was no, you know, any, no emotional response whatsoever. It's like we just look at each other and say, "Okay, so let's... This is an interesting challenge. Let's see what we can do about it." That's another trick, by the way, that the Stoics, um, deploy, deployed, and it turns out it's confirmed by, uh, modern psychology. It's called the framing effect. So the framing effect in psychology, uh, consistent in the, uh, in the phenomenon that if you present the same exact information to people but in two different ways, they will react differently depending on how the information is presented. For instance, you go to the doctor because you're worried about something and the doctor says, "All right. You got a 90% chances of making it through this." Or he says, "All right. You got a 10% chances of dying of this."

    18. CWChris Williamson1:05:17

        (laughs) I don't wanna be with that doctor (laughs) at all.

    19. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:05:19

        Right. Now, the factual in- notice that the factual information is exactly the same.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:05:23

        Mm-hmm.

    21. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:05:23

        90% survival rate is exactly the same as 10%, uh, death rate. There's no, there's no difference at all. But as you just noticed, people will react differently, right? Depending on where you put it, this one way or the other. Now, the framing effect has been used by Stoics for more than 2,000 years to, uh, look at the same situation in a more productive way. Marcus Aurelius, uh, writes in The Meditation that if we find an obstacle, instead of banging your, your head against the obstacle and the obstacle is, is unbreakable, you need to find a new path. The obstacle becomes the way. Um, it becomes a, a new way of doing things, right? In the case of setbacks, one way to, to... like the refrigerator issue. One way to react, which comes kind of natural, is as modern cognitive behavioral therapists call it, catastrophizing. Like, "Oh my gosh, the refrigerator is not working. What am I gonna do? This is horrible. This is a catastrophe. This is a problem," blah, blah, blah. Or you're gonna look at the same exact thing and say, "That's an interesting challenge. So now I got a problem to solve. Let me, let me see how I score on this challenge." And then... And you start taking notes and saying, "Okay, so here's how I reacted and here's what I did," and so on and so forth. You kind of make it into a game essentially.

    22. CWChris Williamson1:06:36

        Was, um, was that a Marcus Aureliacism about... Was it called the equanimity game? Was it about if you fall off a horse, how quickly can you get back on? Was that Marcus Aurelius or am I making that up?

    23. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:06:48

        I don't remember that in, in Marcus, although you could be right. 'cause I haven't, I haven't-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:06:51

        I've definitely, I've definitely just ascribed something to Marcus Aurelius that he has got absolutely nothing to do with. It's like-

    25. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:06:56

        (laughs) I haven't memorized The Meditation, so you... who knows? You, you could be, you could be right.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:06:59

        I'm almost certain I'm probably not correct. It's fine.

    27. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:07:01

        But, but you see where, where that goes. So, so it's a-... it's exact same situation, right? But now you choose to apply a different frame, and the frame, new frame that you apply is actually productive as opposed to being, you know, kind of undermining yourself. Now whenever they say that, people say, "Oh, but so that means that Stoicism is just a mind trick." And I say, "Yeah, you know what else is a mind trick? Life."

    28. CWChris Williamson1:07:27

        (laughs) Everything else.

    29. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:07:29

        Everything is a mind trick.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:07:30

        Well, that's the-
14. 1:08:35 – 1:13:02

    Exercise 4: Sunrise meditation—cultivating transcendence and cosmic perspective

    1. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:08:35

       Um, one of my, uh, favorite exercises that I do on an occasional basis, not a regular basis, is the sunrise meditation. This is found in Marcus Aurelius. There is a bit in the, in The Meditations where he says that, uh, he actually ascribes this, um, uh, this practice to the Pythagoreans, which means that it predates Stoicism. It goes back to the 6th century BC. Um, and it's a sim- it's a very simple thing. You just set up your alarm, um, make sure that you know, you check the weather forecast, and so you know that there's either sunny or clear or quite almost clear. Uh, set up your alarm clock for about 45 minutes before sunrise, depending on how far you have to walk to get there. And then reach a location, grab your, gra- grab your coffee, and then get to a location where you can see the sunrise or as close to it as possible. Here in New York, it's next to impossible to see the actual sunrise, but you can see the s- the sun low enough, you know, behind some level of buildings on the horizons. It's good enough. And then you just stay there and wait, sip your coffee and, and, and focus your attention on the fact that a star is about to come over the horizon, right? Literally. Of course, don't do what Donald Trump does. Don't look at the sun straight, because that's a bad idea. Um, just, just, you know, look on the side or get some special glasses if you really want to look at it. But the point is not to look at it. The point is to experience, um, the event. This is obviously a mundane event. It literally happens every day, right? But we never pay attention to it because very few people take the time to actually, you know, set the alarm, get up early, go to the place, and, and then just stay there for half an hour, 45 minutes or whatever it is, and just think about, reflect about what's happening. Now, why would you want to do that? It's a way to reconnect with a broader, with the broader cosmos, with the, reminding yourself that you are actually part of a gigantic, uh, whole of which, to which you are connected by a, uh, unbreaka- unbroken web of cause and effect. Okay? You may think that the sun has anything to do with you, but in fact, literally, the sun is what keeps you alive, right? If there were no sun, you would, there would be no life on Earth. Uh, as one of my favorite, uh, scientists of all time, Carl Sagan, used to say, "We're literally stardust." Right? All of the elements that, uh, make up our bodies literally were forged inside a supernova somewhere in the universe, and that's where we come, come from. So, all of this is beautiful, and it reconnects you in a sense. So it's, you know, spiritual sense. I don't want to use the word spiritual in any kind of mystical sense. I'm not, you know, I don't, I don't think it in those terms. But it, it transcends... it's a sense of transcendence. There is very good empirical evidence from modern psychology that a sense of transcendence is one of the best things long term that c- that m- make people happy, people that cultivate a sense of transcendence. Of course, in some, in many cases, this is literally believing in a god, right? But that's not the only way to feel transcendence. I don't believe, uh, you know, in, in any particular, you know, in any god. And, and that to me is a way to, um, to do it. Um, incidentally, you also get a very early start in the mor- on the day. So, you get a lot of stuff done that day. (laughs)

    2. CWChris Williamson1:12:01

       And you've had a good coffee first thing. Yeah.

    3. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:12:03

       That's right.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:12:03

       I love it. I love it. That connection with nature, big, big way to transcend.

    5. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:12:06

       Yeah, exactly, connection with... And there are other ways to do it. I mean, if you're in a, uh, you know, I, when I was in, uh, I, I lived for several years in Tennessee, and I would go, uh, white water canoeing for instance. So for a whole day, I would be just myself and a friend or two maybe in the middle of nowhere, surrounded just by water. And it's, that's another way to do it. Uh, when I used to live in Italy, in a place, uh, a small town north of Rome, I would actually go outside on purpose on nice evenings and look at the Milky Way, because I could see the Milky Way, just s- stare at it, right? Now, I can't see the damn Milky Way from New York, so, so that's not an option. Only one thing, if you're doing the sunrise meditation, don't cheat, don't do the sunset-

    6. CWChris Williamson1:12:44

       (laughs) That was about to say.

    7. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:12:45

       ... because the sunset is too easy.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:12:47

       Yeah.

    9. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:12:47

       It's not the same. It's too easy.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:12:49

        So, this, this part of this, uh, how would you say, kind of like a pilgrimage, a small pilgrimage-

    11. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:12:54

        Right.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:12:54

        ... that you need to make, and the, is the, the price that you have to pay is part of the...

    13. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:12:58

        Correct. Correct.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:12:59

        I love it. Number four.

    15. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:00

        Yes.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:13:00

        Number four, Massimo.

    17. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:01

        Let's do it.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:13:01

        Number four.

15. 1:13:02 – 1:18:43

    Exercise 5: Premeditatio malorum + memento mori to clarify priorities

    1. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:02

       All right. Number four, um, well, I have to say...The premeditation of an- an- an adversity is one of those that- th- those- those- those, um, start techniques that I find particularly useful, although there is a couple of caveats. So the term in Latin is premeditates- premeditatio malorum, which literally, well, not literally, which sort of translates to thinking about bad shit happening. Um-

    2. CWChris Williamson1:13:30

       (laughs)

    3. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:30

       So-

    4. CWChris Williamson1:13:32

       Is that malorum like malady type thing?

    5. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:34

       Yeah, exactly.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:13:35

       Yeah.

    7. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:35

       It's like, as bad things.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:13:36

       Got you.

    9. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:36

       You know, malorum is a malady, is a bad thing.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:13:39

        (laughs)

    11. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:39

        So what one is, and then you want to do this. Well, whenever you are, uh, facing a situation that might not turn out well for you, okay, like a pandemic, for instance.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:13:50

        Yep.

    13. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:13:51

        Right? Um, so what does the meditation consist of? Well, you take some time to develop a, in- in detail, a scenario, a- a- a worst-case scenario, and you ask yourself, you- you actually visualize, uh, or otherwise make concrete how you're going to react throughout this unfolding scenario, right? So what is the worst thing that can happen? Oh, I'm gonna end up in the hospital. That's the whole worst thing that can happen. Well, worst thing, of course, that can happen is you're not gonna die, but for that one, there's nothing you can do about it.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:14:24

        (laughs)

    15. MPMassimo Pigliucci1:14:24

        So, you know, it's cool. Okay, done. But you end up in the hospital, you know, in the emergency, uh, unit or something like that. That's the worst thing, the worst case scenario, right? It's unlikely because for most... We need to remember that for most of us, this is actually an unlikely scenario, but nevertheless, it's possible. So the notion is, once again, and you- you might have noticed that this is, uh, a recurring theme. You want to make yourself prepared for that sort of situation even though it's not likely to happen. But if it does happen, it's a tough one. Okay? That's not gonna be just enough to say, "Well, what's under my control?" Eh, that's gonna be a tough one. So the premeditatio malorum means that you very carefully and deliberately work through your- the- the- the worst-case scenario and the way you're gonna- in which you're gonna react to that worst case scenario bit by bit. Now, there are different ways of doing it. The modern way to do it, uh, a popular modern way to do it comes from s- cognitive behavioral therapy. There is, again, there is research here that shows that this does work, and it's in the sa- in the form of a visual meditation. So you close your eyes, and then you s- you kind of slowly go through a- a mental movie basically that- that carefully shows you through your mind's eye what the situation is going, how the situation is gonna unfold and how you're gonna react. The problem with that, there's two problems with that. Number one, it's easy to slip into, um, an emotional s- state when you're doing that sort of stuff, right? You're supposed to do it in a detached fashion. You're supposed to rationally think about what's happening, not emotionally. So, but the problem is that once if you do it in as- as a- as a visual meditation, a lot of people slip into the- the emotional mode, and that's bad because then you actually in- instead of solving, you know, of- of helping yourself, you actually cause yourself anxiety, and that's not a good thing. So you might want to do it, uh, carefully. If you thin- feel it doesn't work for you, then stop doing it, uh, or doing- uh, doing it under the supervision of a kind of behavioral therapist who would actually help you through the- through the stages. However, there's another problem with the... so the- the visualization exercise. Some people, like me, are not good at visualization exercises. If I close my eyes and I start thinking about something, I fall asleep. It's like (snores) I doze off. It's like, "Nope, sorry, that's not gonna do it." Or I get distracted. I, you know, I go somewhere else w- with my mind. So I have to constantly sort of bring back. It's like, "No, no, no." It becomes like a zen meditation. It's just too much work. So the way I do it is- is different. Um, you can either write a letter to yourself or to a friend without actually having to send the letter. You just write it. It's a writing exercise, or you write it as a fictional story, as a short story as if you were to publish a short story on your blog or something like that. Again, you don't have to publish it. It's just for your own use, right? What's the point there? First of all, the- the simple act of writing instead of thinking about it already puts some distance between you and the situation. It makes it more detached, es- especially if you write in second or third person. So if you t- if you imagine that you're writing to a friend or you're writing to somebody else, um, or you write a story in the third person, you know, as a- as a narrator, um, that puts some distance. And this may sound like, oh, you know, like a small thing. There's actually a fairly good research that shows that it makes a huge difference. Don't- don't write that stuff in first person because first person, you get emotional about it. Um, if you notice and if you go through the meditations by Marcus Aurelius, he's written in the second person, okay? He talks to himself in the second person. He never says, "I do this." He say- always says, "You did that." Okay? And so he had- he had this notion already way, you know, 2,000 years before modern psychology that it's a better thing if you- if you actually detach yourself from- from this kind of stuff. So the pre- the premeditation of adversity, I think, is very good because, on the one hand, if you do it right, it helps you exercise, you know, your fears and your anxieties, um, because it becomes a way to externally, you know, objectively look at the situation instead of worry about the situation, and it also prepares you for that situation should- should that kind of stuff actually happens, um, you know, then- then you actually already have this certain scenario worked out in your mind for how you'd react. So that was exercise number four, I guess.

Episode duration: 1:26:31