A Hacker In Your Pocket | How Your Smartphone Is Short Circuiting Your Brain

1. 0:00 – 3:14

   Why phone addiction is a bigger scandal than data privacy

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Hi, friends. So it's been a couple of weeks since the last episode. I know that I promised (laughs) I was going to do one every single week, and I've, uh, fallen within the first month of that. However, I have a good excuse. I was away in Palma on a yacht and then in Dubai with my dad. It's a hard life, I know. (laughs) This week I'm sitting down with Yusuf and Johnny from Propain Fitness, and this is probably my most anticipated episode to date. When I say "mine," I mean by myself, not by anybody else. Um, we're gonna be discussing the ethical use of technology and how social networks, social media manipulates our cognitive biases and uses unseen persuasion techniques to keep you on site. Now all of this might sound a little tinfoil-hatty, but I promise you it's not. It is, as far as I'm concerned, probably one of the biggest and most important issues that we've got going on at the moment if you think about how ubiquitous phone use is amongst everybody on the planet. The Cambridge Analytica scandal which recently came out where it turned out that some users on Facebook's data had been illegally acquired and manipulated caused absolute uproar. And all that was happening there was people were being targeted with ads, and some of their data had been stolen. Your phone is stealing your time, and that's the one resource that we can't get any of it back. That, to me, is a much bigger scandal that needs to be spoken about. Our phones are with us more than any partner, any friend, any family member, any pet, probably any other item that we own. They're with us every single step of the way, and they're possessions that we cherish to a degree and that we live our lives through. They're a window between us and the world. They mediate our experience of the external world. And they manipulate our experience and our judgment of other people, both celebrity and friend. It's something that we put an awful lot of faith into. And yet our brains are being hacked by billion-dollar companies, and behind every press of every button on your phone, there is a team of software engineers who have manipulated you into pressing that particular button in order to keep you on site because they need your attention because that is how the money is made on that particular platform. (inhales) So hopefully you'll come out of this understanding the tactics that are being used to keep you on your phone. You'll be more aware of why and how this is happening. And also we will give you some tips and some strategies that you can implement to mitigate the amount of time that you get trapped within your phone. So without further ado, here we go.

2. 3:14 – 6:03

   Chaotic cold open banter before the real topic begins

   1. JOJonny3:14

      I think someone was selling a dildo on Facebook Marketplace yesterday. Rampant Rabbit.

   2. YUYusef3:20

      Who, that, did you, is that the thing where you said-

   3. JOJonny3:21

      I might, I might've sent it to you both.

   4. YUYusef3:22

      Yeah. You said, "Don't, don't believe when you say it's not being used."

   5. JOJonny3:25

      Yeah. Well, I mean, why, why else are you selling it? Like, who buys-

   6. YUYusef3:28

      Well, because it hasn't been used.

   7. JOJonny3:30

      Maybe it was a gift, and they thought-

   8. YUYusef3:32

      Yeah, they have two of them.

   9. JOJonny3:34

      Hmm. Still, I wouldn't trust it. I would, I mean-

   10. CWChris Williamson3:37

       Someone could have, someone could have been purchased too thinking that they wanted that.

   11. JOJonny3:41

       They bought it online. (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson3:42

       And they didn't. They, they overestimated their sexual appetite.

   13. JOJonny3:47

       capacity. I see. So either-

   14. YUYusef3:49

       Or if she's doing it.

   15. JOJonny3:50

       ... they double-tapped the Add to Cart button or they tried it, didn't like it. Either way, I'm not putting it in my vagina. I think it's a...

   16. CWChris Williamson3:58

       Well, it's not just the vagina, is it potentially?

   17. JOJonny4:00

       Or, or bum. Yeah, you're right.

   18. YUYusef4:02

       I think you can put it anywhere, and that's what's, that's what's so great about them.

   19. JOJonny4:04

       Yeah, we shouldn't discriminate. I think that's very judgmental of us to assume vagina.

   20. CWChris Williamson4:10

       Judgmental on who? People that prefer anal?

   21. JOJonny4:13

       Yeah.

   22. YUYusef4:13

       People with or without vaginas.

   23. JOJonny4:14

       We need to be nice to...

   24. CWChris Williamson4:16

       Docking. You could use it for docking.

   25. YUYusef4:18

       Docking.

   26. CWChris Williamson4:18

       Use the second one for docking.

   27. YUYusef4:21

       Can you explain in the clearest possible way what docking is?

   28. JOJonny4:26

       It's when a man interpenetrates another man with his...

   29. YUYusef4:31

       With a tool.

   30. JOJonny4:31

       A tool.
3. 6:03 – 11:46

   From 'Distraction is Destruction' to realizing the game is rigged

   1. CWChris Williamson6:03

      Um, so this is a podcast I've wanted to do for ages, but we keep on having to put it off for different reasons. Um, we did a podcast called Distraction is Destruction.

   2. JOJonny6:13

      Excellent podcast.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:14

      Excellent podcast. Propamedapp.com/ ...

   4. JOJonny6:16

      It's us.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:16

      Forward slash ...

   6. JOJonny6:18

      Uh.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:18

      (laughs)

   8. JOJonny6:19

      Forward slash distraction.

   9. YUYusef6:20

      Don't ask us that.

   10. JOJonny6:21

       I think. We'll, we'll change the link for you guys.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:23

       Yeah. It's-

   12. JOJonny6:23

       I kind of, I kind of remember that.

   13. YUYusef6:24

       That, was that the one with the ... (clicks fingers)

   14. JOJonny6:26

       Yeah. It was.

   15. CWChris Williamson6:26

       With the arm, with the arm things.

   16. YUYusef6:28

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson6:28

       So basically, we, we all are trying to reduce our phone time. Well, this was, what? About a year ago maybe.

   18. YUYusef6:34

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson6:34

       Trying to reduce our phone time. And, um, decided to do a podcast on how it felt when we use our phone too much and tactics that you can do to reduce that. That to me felt like my first Christmas. And over the last six months, all of the stuff that I've learned feels like finding out that Santa Claus isn't real.

   20. YUYusef6:54

       (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson6:54

       That's-

   22. YUYusef6:56

       As in, it's all a lie to keep you inside and you can't get out?

   23. CWChris Williamson7:00

       Just that-

   24. JOJonny7:01

       The odds are stacked against you with-

   25. CWChris Williamson7:02

       I just entered into this world, like a year ago, of-

   26. YUYusef7:06

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:06

       ... phone use is maybe something that I need to consider a little bit more deeply than I have done. And then now, it's just opened up this entire world of cognitive bias manipulation and persuasive techniques, and a whole lot of other stuff. Um, so-

   28. YUYusef7:19

       It's interesting, 'cause I used to really care about it, and I've just resigned to the fact that I don't care.

   29. CWChris Williamson7:24

       I've, I, without exaggeration, this is probably w- one of the top five passionate topics I've got in my life at the moment.

   30. YUYusef7:30

       Really? (laughs)
4. 11:46 – 14:37

   The Burj Khalifa story: present self vs future self

   1. CWChris Williamson11:46

      really, like, uh, I genuinely don't think that there's a topic which can be more ubiquitous for people to need to know about. Like, at the moment, it's, uh, for me, it's really, really important, and hopefully people find a little bit of value in this. Um, so basically, I think it's like common... I'd say it's commonly accepted amongst almost everybody, even like my mom and my dad know that they probably use their phones a little bit too much.... and a perfect example of this, I couldn't believe it. So I've just been away in Dubai. I was at the top of the Burj Khalifa with my dad who hasn't been on holiday for 17 years. Wow. Right? So I'm nearly a kilometer up in the air, lion's share of a kilometer, 148th floor, largest, tallest building in the world. Lar- um, tallest observatory platform in the world. And we got there. Dad hasn't been on holiday in nearly two decades, right? And we'd flown seven and a half hours and paid however much money and all the rest of it. And I went to the bathroom and I came back out to see that he was sat down on the couch on his phone. (laughs) And I was like, "Dad, what are you doing on m- on your phone?" And he was like, uh, "Oh, I'm just, uh, just answering some work emails." "You do remember that this was your retirement trip, Dad?" (laughs) "Your holiday was for your retirement. You're retiring and you're answering work emails." And I was just like, I mean, what a perfect example. His phone will have buzzed and- Yep. And the thing is ... So the argument is that-

   2. JOJonny13:06

      That little red circle on the-

   3. CWChris Williamson13:07

      ... and it pops up.

   4. JOJonny13:08

      ... on the app.

   5. CWChris Williamson13:08

      The th- the thing is- Go check it. ... d- d- does he want to check his phone when he's at, uh, the 148th floor of the Burj Khalifa? No. He doesn't want to check his phone. However, he has checked his phone. Does that mean that that's something he wants to do?

   6. JOJonny13:23

      It's wizardry, isn't it? Someone's made you do something that you wouldn't have ... If someone said, "Do you want to check your phone and check-"

   7. CWChris Williamson13:29

      (laughs)

   8. JOJonny13:29

      "... and respond to a work email?" The answer would always be, "No, I don't want to check my phone and respond to my work email." But they've managed to still make you do that.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:37

      You see, that- that's the part where I don't know where I lie on that, because I- I think I do want to check my phone. So I think a lot of the time (laughs) ...

   10. JOJonny13:47

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson13:47

       Like, I- we- I was in Budapest with Becca and the whole time I've got my phone in my pocket. (laughs) . And if anyone had ever sai- said to me-

   12. JOJonny13:55

       "Do you want to check your phone?"

   13. CWChris Williamson13:55

       ... "Jonny mate, have five minutes to yourself. Go over there."

   14. JOJonny13:58

       (laughs) Yes (laughs) .

   15. CWChris Williamson13:59

       (laughs) And I would be like, "Woo-hoo!"

   16. JOJonny14:01

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson14:01

       (laughs) So I think, I think I'd be okay with it. I think-

   18. JOJonny14:02

       I see what you're saying.

   19. CWChris Williamson14:03

       I understand what you're getting at, but-

   20. JOJonny14:04

       But I- so I think what Tristan was getting at was the- the present self versus future self. And it's like, you sit on your phone and scroll the news feed for half an hour in the morning.

   21. CWChris Williamson14:14

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JOJonny14:14

       But then if you were to ask yourself, "Was that time well spent?"

   23. CWChris Williamson14:17

       Got it.

   24. JOJonny14:17

       "Would you have wanted to have spent today half an hour scrolling the news feed?"

   25. CWChris Williamson14:21

       Check. Got it. Especially when you've got to consider, as we say, time is the one resource that you're not gonna get any of it back.

   26. JOJonny14:26

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson14:26

       And you specifically, as a person who likes to be as efficient as he can with his day, like, the time that you spend on your phone which isn't contributing-

5. 14:37 – 16:36

   The attention arms race: autoplay, engagement metrics, and profit

   1. JOJonny14:37

      Mm-hmm.

   2. CWChris Williamson14:37

      ... directly to the objectives that you've got to complete that day, who's made you choose? Is it leisure time? Does it count as leisure time? So the question is, and the main, the main question of this is, does it net a positive for you?

   3. JOJonny14:48

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson14:48

      Because if it nets a positive for you overall, then sweet. But, the problem is, that it's a zero sum game where all different platforms online are competing for our attention. So if YouTube adds autoplay, which they only did within the last 18 months, or last two years, YouTube adds autoplay under the next video, that upped their, um, time on site by between five and 10%.

   5. JOJonny15:13

      YouTube ads or YouTube videos?

   6. CWChris Williamson15:15

      YouTube added.

   7. JOJonny15:17

      Added. Oh, okay. Ads.

   8. CWChris Williamson15:18

      Autoplay of the next- Oh, right. (laughs)

   9. JOJonny15:21

      Ads, with a double D.

   10. CWChris Williamson15:22

       I thought, yeah. I was still- That's just an ad- ... trying to- That's just an advertiser. That's a, that's a market- (laughs) That's a market- (laughs) ... mind there, isn't it? Yeah (laughs) . Um, so YouTube- My eyes. Oh my God, I need- (laughs) . (laughs) . ... to, I need to go and do this. Um- Do we need to- ... YouTube, YouTube added in autoplay the next video, that increased their time on site by five to 10%. There's only so many hours in the day so that five to 10% has come from somewhere. It's either come from someone's spare time or it's been taken from Facebook or Twitter or- Mm-hmm. ... Google or whatever it is. And what that means is that Facebook now needs to do autoplay videos as you scroll down. They need to up their armory. It's like an arms race. Mm-hmm. It's an arms race to see who can use the most number of manipulative cognitive bias, uh, affecting techniques- To get you. ... to get you to stay on site. And the fact of the matter is that the economy reflects the more time that someone spends on a site, the more value that company has. Mm-hmm. Because the revenue is generated through advertising and advertising is mostly based on how much exposure are people gonna get. How much exposure is directly equal to how much time on site. If you can get people to stay on site, irrelevant of whether or not they want to, you make more money. Yeah.

   11. JOJonny16:33

       So-

   12. CWChris Williamson16:33

       A bit shit when you look at it like that.

   13. JOJonny16:35

       The ... An example-

   14. CWChris Williamson16:36

       It is a bit shit.

6. 16:36 – 18:00

   Why it’s not your fault: dark patterns and engineered rabbit holes

   1. JOJonny16:36

      ... that I think, that I think he mentioned in this and it, it definitely catches me every single time.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:41

      (laughs) .

   3. JOJonny16:41

      And this is, th- th- this really hurts my pride because I, I see, I like to see myself as somebody who is-

   4. CWChris Williamson16:48

      Is it the gay porn websites?

   5. JOJonny16:49

      ... able to ... It's, it's the gay porn. I every-

   6. CWChris Williamson16:50

      (laughs) .

   7. JOJonny16:50

      Always find myself (laughs) -

   8. CWChris Williamson16:51

      Like, "Bloody hell." (laughs)

   9. JOJonny16:53

      It's, I- I like to pride myself in somebody who can maintain cognitive effort on a single task, having meditated for so long, or at least tried to train for this thing.

   10. CWChris Williamson17:03

       I, you're easily the best person I know at that single thing.

   11. JOJonny17:06

       And yet-

   12. CWChris Williamson17:06

       The best meditator. The b- the best, like single focus. Like, if he's gonna do something- Cal Newport deep work. ... sit and do it, yeah.

   13. JOJonny17:11

       And yet, I am still defenseless against like, "Okay, I need to quickly check when that person's birthday is on Facebook."

   14. CWChris Williamson17:17

       Go on.

   15. JOJonny17:17

       And then 10 minutes later-

   16. CWChris Williamson17:19

       (laughs) .

   17. JOJonny17:19

       ... you've closed the tab, you've done-

   18. CWChris Williamson17:20

       (clears throat) .

   19. JOJonny17:20

       ... loads of other things and you're like, "Hang on."

   20. CWChris Williamson17:22

       "I didn't even do the thing I went on there for."

   21. JOJonny17:24

       Every time.

   22. CWChris Williamson17:24

       And again, this is, this is not ... The, the, the ... One of the main points I want to get across to you in this podcast is that if this is happening to you, not only is it not just you that it's happening to, but it's not your fault. And I think that-

   23. JOJonny17:38

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson17:38

       ... realizing ... One of the main steps that I think needs to happen is that firstly people need to realize that there is a problem, that if they were to look back at their day and portion out how much time they spend on their phone, that it is a regrettable action. Like, and this isn't me saying that people shouldn't use Facebook and shouldn't use Twitter and shouldn't use Instagram-

   25. JOJonny17:55

       But only-

   26. CWChris Williamson17:55

       ... because it does as good.

   27. JOJonny17:56

       ... if it gives you a net benefit to do so.

   28. CWChris Williamson17:57

       A net positive, for sure. And there is a-

   29. JOJonny17:59

       But use it consciously, is what you're saying.

7. 18:00 – 34:01

   Slot machines in your pocket: variable rewards, dopamine, and notification design

   1. CWChris Williamson18:00

      There i- there is a, there is a, um, a Goldilocks zone of how much time you should be spending on there and what you're doing with your time on there as well. But the problem is, that these sites are designed-

   2. JOJonny18:09

      (laughs) .

   3. CWChris Williamson18:10

      ... in a way-... to manipulate your cognitive biases so that you do not leave and so that you don't do the thing that you went on there to do, so that you look at the ads, so that you watch the videos, so that you do whatever. So I mean, there's a couple of examples that are really, really good. Variable schedule rewards are the dopamine release technique that slot machines work on. So you press the button, you wait. Something's gonna happen. It's either something good or something that's neutral, usually. Twitter, if you open up Twitter on your phone now, press the button. Now wait.

   4. JOJonny18:42

      (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson18:44

      And then you wait for the notifications to load. You'll see that the app loads, then your newsfeed loads, and then your mentions load with a number sometimes.

   6. JOJonny18:53

      Have, have either of you got... 'Cause I don't have Twitter on my phone, so I've never seen this. So tell me.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:58

      I, basically, basically all that happens is there's a, there's a wait. There's a pause between-

   8. JOJonny19:02

      And that's on purpose?

   9. CWChris Williamson19:03

      ... you loading up. Yeah. They could program it so that it occurred immediately, but they don't. And the reason is, the amount of time it, it takes for that to load.

   10. JOJonny19:10

       Yes.

   11. CWChris Williamson19:10

       So you've got a loading screen there. Loading.

   12. JOJonny19:12

       God, that is painful, isn't it?

   13. CWChris Williamson19:13

       Yeah.

   14. JOJonny19:14

       When there is.

   15. CWChris Williamson19:14

       Then that'll open, then that'll go, then that'll happen, and then you'll see how many me- mentions you've got that come up. And the reason for that is it is the exact same amount of time wait that a slot machine takes.

   16. JOJonny19:26

       Then you go, "Ooh."

   17. CWChris Williamson19:27

       "Ooh, I've got that."

   18. JOJonny19:28

       then there's the, "Ooh." (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson19:29

       "I've got this." Exactly the same on Instagram.

   20. JOJonny19:31

       So that's where the, the, you know, the alarm bell-

   21. CWChris Williamson19:34

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JOJonny19:34

       ... became a blast.

   23. CWChris Williamson19:35

       Yeah.

   24. JOJonny19:35

       Yeah. That, that's it. So-

   25. CWChris Williamson19:35

       Exactly. While you wait because it, it's that variable schedule reward-

   26. JOJonny19:39

       That's what you... So Facebook have started doing the same thing.

   27. CWChris Williamson19:41

       ... makes you hold your breath. Look at Instagram. Load up Instagram and your newsfeed will load and there will be a half a second wait between that and your, and your mentions and your, um, the red little tab coming up.

   28. JOJonny19:50

       So it's the same tactics that make casinos so compulsive and gambling so addictive, that, um-

   29. CWChris Williamson19:55

       And casinos so profitable for you.

   30. JOJonny19:57

       Yeah. So we, we are addicted to random rewards more so than predictable rewards, which I find absolutely insane. That you... There was a study where they took a bunch of monkeys in a room, gave them, made them do a bunch of tasks, and when they discovered one button to press, it would give them a banana. And they would repeat it and, uh, and when they stopped that from happening, they stopped the, they disconnected the button from the reward, the monkeys kept doing it for a bit and then they stopped. Whereas on another iteration of the study, they gave the monkeys random rewards and the monkeys started to develop weird rituals that they thought were creating the reward.
8. 34:01 – 38:58

   Outrage, echo chambers, and feed optimization reshaping mood

   1. CWChris Williamson34:01

      Um, and here's, here's one of the big-

   2. YUYusef34:02

      So people need phone macros?

   3. CWChris Williamson34:04

      Yeah, pretty much. Here's one of the big things, and it's that outrage online always travels further than positivity. And because of the way that the newsfeed optimization works, this is specific to Facebook, outrage is more attractive than positivity. That means that you are more likely to click on outrage. All that the computer is then going to start feeding you is more of what you want.

   4. YUYusef34:27

      More outrage.

   5. CWChris Williamson34:27

      Hang on, but, but what about the sweet analogy? I, I, I, I ate the sweets, but I kind of didn't want to eat the sweets, but I did kind of want to eat the sweets. I don't want to click on the outrage. I don't want to be delivered more outrage.

   6. YUYusef34:38

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson34:39

      But all that the computer's doing is delivering more of what its job is, which is to maximize time on site and to maximize clickthroughs.

   8. YUYusef34:46

      Plus when you have a sweet, I think it creates the immediate desire for mo- another sweet.

   9. CWChris Williamson34:52

      Mm-hmm.

   10. YUYusef34:53

       As soon as you've had the sweet, you don't think, "That was lovely. Enough, enough's enough." You think, "That was nice. I'll have another one."

   11. JOJonny34:58

       In fact, that's a really good analogy because we know that your, the bacteria that develop in your gut as a result of certain foods will cause, they'll interact with your brain and cause you to crave more of the same food. And so that's a double-edged sword. As with outrage, that if you consume lots of outrage, that's going to then change your mental environment over time and change the general tone and emotion that you're experi- the mood that you're experiencing throughout the day.

   12. CWChris Williamson35:26

       Well, one of the, one of the-

   13. JOJonny35:27

       The same way people do gratitude journals because they want to fill themselves with positivity-

   14. CWChris Williamson35:31

       Mm-hmm.

   15. JOJonny35:31

       ... and-

   16. CWChris Williamson35:31

       One of, one of the main things is that because, because of how Facebook works and because it delivers news to people who they know want to see it, there was a time online where if the word Trump was in an article, it would be top of your newsfeed, irrelevant of what you'd clicked on. There was a brief period where that happened.

   17. JOJonny35:53

       What, so, so Trump just-

   18. CWChris Williamson35:54

       Trump.

   19. JOJonny35:54

       Literally Trump?

   20. CWChris Williamson35:55

       To the top.

   21. JOJonny35:55

       Everything.

   22. CWChris Williamson35:56

       To the top. It literally did.

   23. JOJonny35:57

       Oh, trumped yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson35:57

       It trumped it. Top Trumps.

   25. JOJonny35:58

       Wow.

   26. CWChris Williamson35:59

       Um, and yeah, Facebook, the thing with Facebook is that because it will get you to click on things that you have a particular cognitive bias towards-

   27. JOJonny36:09

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson36:09

       ... it segregates you into these echo chambers online-

   29. JOJonny36:12

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson36:13

       ... with other like-minded people that share the shit that you want to click on-
9. 38:58 – 42:04

   Profit motives vs ethics: ‘time well spent’ messaging and platform incentives

   1. CWChris Williamson38:58

      Look, look at what's, look at what's the number one news source for most people.

   2. YUYusef39:01

      Is it Facebook?

   3. CWChris Williamson39:02

      Facebook.

   4. JOJonny39:03

      Hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson39:03

      It's Twi- it's actually Twitter.

   6. YUYusef39:04

      People are finding out-

   7. CWChris Williamson39:05

      Actually-

   8. YUYusef39:05

      ... about Facebook news, news leaks-

   9. CWChris Williamson39:07

      On Facebook.

   10. YUYusef39:07

       ... data leaks on, on Facebook.

   11. CWChris Williamson39:08

       On Facebook.

   12. JOJonny39:09

       And, and surely Facebook can just remove-

   13. CWChris Williamson39:11

       Just-

   14. JOJonny39:11

       ... anything that was news feeds-

   15. CWChris Williamson39:13

       No. No.

   16. JOJonny39:13

       ... that mentions ... (cross talk)

   17. CWChris Williamson39:14

       Well, do you remember when, do you remember when Google got pulled for putting their own, um-

   18. YUYusef39:18

       Ads in, yeah, at the top.

   19. CWChris Williamson39:19

       ... shopping, uh, things at the top of, of particular lists? There's like, this fair use policy thing, isn't it? Like, where, "Well, this is my platform. I can do-"

   20. YUYusef39:26

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson39:26

       "... with it what I want." Well, no, actually you're supposed to be, um, neutral in a way. But okay, you're neutral at del- at the content that you deliver, but not neutral at delivering the content?

   22. YUYusef39:39

       Mm-hmm. It's a tough one though, isn't it?

   23. CWChris Williamson39:42

       It is really. It's-

   24. YUYusef39:43

       'Cause in one way, like, they're not a charity. They, you know, they're a business.

   25. CWChris Williamson39:45

       Mm-hmm.

   26. YUYusef39:46

       Profit-driven. Like of course they're gonna advertise their own services on their own platform.

   27. CWChris Williamson39:49

       Mm-hmm.

   28. YUYusef39:50

       But-

   29. CWChris Williamson39:50

       I think, I think the other thing to consider is as well that everyone believes that, uh, uh, if you were to, if you were to look at this from a, um, a very critical perspective, you would think that all of the guys in Silicon Valley are wearing black hoods and long noses-

   30. YUYusef40:06

       Mm-hmm.
10. 42:04 – 47:13

    PornHub as an attention-optimization case study (and cultural mirror)

    1. CWChris Williamson42:04

       Should we have a look at some stats on PornHub?

    2. YUYusef42:06

       (laughs)

    3. JOJonny42:07

       So the, I, I want take, I take my hat off to the an- analyst, the analyst.

    4. CWChris Williamson42:13

       Nice.

    5. JOJonny42:14

       Who, hey. (laughs)

    6. YUYusef42:16

       Hey.

    7. JOJonny42:16

       Um, who does the PornHub annual stats-

    8. YUYusef42:18

       They are-

    9. JOJonny42:19

       ... 'cause right, they're well-constructed.

    10. YUYusef42:20

        I imagine it's a, it's a data team, I would've thought.

    11. CWChris Williamson42:22

        Ah, probably. (laughs)

    12. YUYusef42:22

        Like it is. It's not a, it's not a bloke with a spreadsheet.

    13. CWChris Williamson42:26

        Just a team.

    14. YUYusef42:26

        Like... (laughs)

    15. CWChris Williamson42:27

        "Bloody hell, mate, you know how much porn we've watched this year?"

    16. YUYusef42:30

        (laughs)

    17. CWChris Williamson42:30

        Um...

    18. YUYusef42:31

        "It's gone up, you know." (laughs)

    19. CWChris Williamson42:32

        Uh, (laughs) what, what has?

    20. YUYusef42:34

        (laughs) Precisely.

    21. CWChris Williamson42:35

        28, 28.5 billion annual visits to PornHub. This is the most interesting stat, right? 28.5-

    22. JOJonny42:42

        That's only four per year per person.

    23. YUYusef42:44

        ... four what?

    24. JOJonny42:45

        Four visits per year per person.

    25. CWChris Williamson42:47

        That's presuming that all seven million-

    26. JOJonny42:49

        Every person.

    27. YUYusef42:49

        This is every person in the world-

    28. CWChris Williamson42:49

        ... seven, every person on the planet is accessing PornHub.

    29. JOJonny42:51

        Including newborns and- (laughs)

    30. YUYusef42:53

        (laughs) Yeah. People on their deathbed.
11. 47:13 – 52:35

    Practical tactics part 1: environment design (sleep, mornings, screens, notifications)

    1. CWChris Williamson47:13

       So, uh, right. Let's do some reductions of phone use strategies, 'cause mine have developed since last year-

    2. JOJonny47:21

       Have they?

    3. CWChris Williamson47:21

       ... since we last did that. My, my main one-

    4. YUYusef47:24

       What's developed?

    5. CWChris Williamson47:24

       My, my, my main one is that when you are in, in, in an inertial frame of reference, the likelihood of you staying on your phone is higher. So if you're lying down, it's more likely than if you're sitting. And if you're sitting, it's more likely than if you're standing. And if you're standing, it's more likely than if you're walking. Uh, so the fact is-

    6. YUYusef47:42

       Jumping. Flying.

    7. CWChris Williamson47:43

       ... jumping. Yeah, yeah. Flying.

    8. YUYusef47:44

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson47:44

       Flying, flapping, fapping.

    10. JOJonny47:46

        Snatching.

    11. CWChris Williamson47:46

        Fapping.

    12. YUYusef47:47

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson47:47

        Snatching. Do not try and snatch with-

    14. JOJonny47:49

        Chin-ups.

    15. CWChris Williamson47:49

        ... unless you're Dmitry Kokov.

    16. YUYusef47:51

        Uh, it's impossible, isn't it? To use your phone while you're doing a chin-up.

    17. JOJonny47:53

        It depends how strong you are.

    18. CWChris Williamson47:55

        One-handed chin-up, fine. Um, basically-

    19. YUYusef47:57

        Deadlift.

    20. JOJonny47:58

        Oh, yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson47:58

        Deadlift.

    22. YUYusef47:59

        Deadlift.

    23. CWChris Williamson47:59

        Deadlift.

    24. YUYusef48:00

        Impossible.

    25. CWChris Williamson48:01

        Um, basically, don't use your phone, don't use your phone when you're in a inertial frame of reference. So if you are, um... (laughs) Yusuf's just trapped his between his chin and his... Between his beard, his Arab beard.

    26. YUYusef48:12

        What's it, what's he trapped?

    27. CWChris Williamson48:13

        His phone.

    28. YUYusef48:13

        Oh right.

    29. JOJonny48:15

        (laughs)

    30. CWChris Williamson48:15

        His penis.
12. 52:35 – 1:05:53

    Extreme option: the ‘shit phone’ day and confronting boredom

    1. YUYusef52:35

       Um, so the one, I mean, you both experienced when I went through my phase with my shit phone.

    2. CWChris Williamson52:42

       Mm-hmm.

    3. YUYusef52:43

       I think for me, that is the one that I would aspire to, to be at.

    4. CWChris Williamson52:48

       Briefly explain that.

    5. YUYusef52:49

       So I bought a £20 phone on Amazon which is the most basic phone you can imagine. Oh, it has a torch.

    6. JOJonny52:58

       What did he call it again?

    7. YUYusef52:59

       Shit phone.

    8. JOJonny53:00

       The, the bharsta.

    9. YUYusef53:01

       Oh yeah. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson53:02

        (laughs) The, the bharsta.

    11. JOJonny53:04

        You motherfucking bastard.

    12. YUYusef53:06

        Yeah, the bharsta. Um, so-

    13. JOJonny53:09

        B-H-A-R-S-T-A.

    14. YUYusef53:12

        So, which is a reference to a YouTube video 'cause we all spend too much time on YouTube.

    15. CWChris Williamson53:15

        On YouTube that we can actually reference something like that.

    16. JOJonny53:17

        150 million views alone.

    17. YUYusef53:18

        I, if anyone would like access to the funniest collection of YouTube videos, I, I, that is no exaggeration. Youssef's, how many? 700?

    18. CWChris Williamson53:29

        Probably, uh-

    19. YUYusef53:30

        Like, it is curated content, like it is really high quality content.

    20. CWChris Williamson53:33

        That's time well spent.

    21. YUYusef53:34

        That is time excellently spent. Excellently well spent?

    22. CWChris Williamson53:38

        Fine.

    23. YUYusef53:39

        So yeah, um, and for a 24-hour period once a week, take your SIM card out of your iPhone or, or your Android and put it into the shit phone. And then you wake up the next day and it is weird.

    24. CWChris Williamson53:53

        What were the barriers that you found for that strategy?

    25. YUYusef53:57

        So you, so the hard- the hardest thing is or was, day... Like, I would go with my girlfriend somewhere, so like, she'd be shopping or we'd be like, we'd go to Tesco and you find yourself in these periods of dead time where you, you go to check it anyway.

    26. CWChris Williamson54:16

        Mm-hmm.

    27. YUYusef54:16

        So I'd find myself getting it out of my pocket and looking at it and then thinking-

    28. CWChris Williamson54:20

        What an idiot.

    29. YUYusef54:20

        ... "What the fuck am I doing?"

    30. CWChris Williamson54:21

        I mean, that's the, that's the bit-
13. 1:05:53 – 1:08:25

    Practical tactics part 2: hard rules, offline blocks, and tracking reality

    1. JOJonny1:05:53

       I think the easiest way to do it for me, and this is the, this harks back, I'm sure that if there's anyone who understands habit setting better than I do or we do, that they, there'll, this will be a common tactic. But I made the rule about when I was going out for drinks. If I was on a stint of sobriety and it was my birthday and I knew that I wanted to have some drinks but not too many, I had to set myself a hard line rule.

    2. YUYusef1:06:14

       Mm.

    3. JOJonny1:06:15

       And it's the same with the phone. When you're trying to stop yourself from doing something your mind wants to do but in retrospect you don't-

    4. YUYusef1:06:24

       Mm-hmm.

    5. JOJonny1:06:24

       ... the, what was it? The current self versus the remembered self. Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:06:28

       Um, you need to set very, very hard lines. And one of the easiest ones to do is to say, "Right, up until a particular point I'm not going to look at my phone in the morning."

    7. JOJonny1:06:38

       The best-

    8. CWChris Williamson1:06:38

       "After a particular point, I'm not going to look at my phone in the night."

    9. JOJonny1:06:41

       Yeah. Well, the, the most productive time I've ever had in my life, and I, I don't know why I don't go back to it.

    10. YUYusef1:06:46

        (laughs) I thought you were gonna say.

    11. JOJonny1:06:47

        Is when I was, I was no wifi until 3:00 PM.

    12. CWChris Williamson1:06:51

        How did you do that? Did you not automate that? You literally just went over and flicked the switch?

    13. JOJonny1:06:54

        Yeah. So just, um, go to bed, turn everything o- turn wifi and connection off on everything. And then next day wake up purely offline, work until 3:00 PM.

    14. CWChris Williamson1:07:04

        Is... Mm-hmm.

    15. JOJonny1:07:04

        And then have 30-

    16. CWChris Williamson1:07:05

        If you're a knowledge worker, you're asked to communicate with other people, that's probably gonna be difficult, isn't it?

    17. JOJonny1:07:08

        Um, then I would, I would manually turn it on for that one task and then turn it back off again.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:07:11

        Oh my God.

    19. JOJonny1:07:12

        Um.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:07:12

        That is serious.

    21. JOJonny1:07:13

        And I had a 30-minute allocation for social media, WhatsApp messages-

    22. CWChris Williamson1:07:17

        Wow.

    23. JOJonny1:07:17

        ... at 6:00 PM and it was beautiful. It was bar-

    24. CWChris Williamson1:07:19

        I mean, that is, that is the absolute-... extreme-

    25. JOJonny1:07:22

        And then I slipped out of the habit, and now my life's a mess.

    26. CWChris Williamson1:07:24

        So, so- (laughs)

    27. YUYusef1:07:25

        The, the thing is ... So, I, I, what, what I found, I a- I said to Dan, "What are you doing to-"

    28. CWChris Williamson1:07:30

        Digital audio.

    29. YUYusef1:07:30

        ... digital audio broadcasting.

    30. CWChris Williamson1:07:31

        Broadcasting.

Episode duration: 1:13:18