Are The Distractions Of Modern Life Stealing Your Purpose? - Mike Thurston

1. 0:00 – 1:30

   Intro

   1. MTMike Thurston0:00

      I had no one else to compare myself to. Like, I wasn't comparing myself to any other 22 or 23-year-old out there. In fact, I thought I was doing pretty good, 'cause I was like, "Hey, I've come out of university and I've got a job." Whereas now, you've got people who are like 16, 20, 21, who are just making a killing. And I think because they're so out there on social media, and they have gained quite a lot of following because of the success they've had, I think a lot of guys maybe that age or even a little bit older, they're like, "Hang on. How does this guy manage to make so much money and so successful, and I am literally (laughs) doing nothing with my life?"

   2. CWChris Williamson0:32

      Michael Thurston, welcome to my show.

   3. MTMike Thurston0:34

      Hello, Chris. Good to see you again.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:36

      Thank you for letting me use your house to record this in.

   5. MTMike Thurston0:39

      What do you think? I know you're a bit of a connoisseur of, uh, setups when it comes to podcasting. What do you think of this one?

   6. CWChris Williamson0:45

      I think it's really nice. Uh, I'm loving whatever that is, some old school, old and worldly telescope-type-

   7. MTMike Thurston0:51

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:51

      ... light. I think that's very nice. Very well done. I'm impressed. You've entered the-

   9. MTMike Thurston0:55

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson0:55

       ... dark and dingy world of-

   11. MTMike Thurston0:57

       Podcasting.

   12. CWChris Williamson0:58

       ... podcasting, yeah. How are you finding it?

   13. MTMike Thurston0:59

       I'm finding it good actually. It's, it's probably been one of the things which I've learnt the most out of, like, what it's taught me so far from just having conversations with people, doing research about people, and being able to hold a conversation, it's, it's been very interesting.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:14

       Well, you've done YouTube for a very long time. How long have you been on YouTube now?

   15. MTMike Thurston1:17

       First video went up 2016.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:20

       It feels like longer than that.

   17. MTMike Thurston1:22

       No, it wasn't-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:22

       But I guess that's still quite a long time.

   19. MTMike Thurston1:23

       No. Yeah. It was, yeah, I went hardcore in 2017. That's when it kind of took off.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:27

       So what

2. 1:30 – 6:20

   How Mike Created a Platform Without the Drama

   1. CWChris Williamson1:30

      ... Looking back now, and obviously having this big arc of content creation for the last, coming up on a decade-

   2. MTMike Thurston1:37

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:37

      ... being on a platform which is getting ever more successful, ever more popular, more and more people joining-

   4. MTMike Thurston1:42

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:42

      ... more and more people being competitive, what have been the principles that have managed to get you to not only a stage that you've got a sizable platform, but also have managed to help you avoid being dragged into the muck and the mire and the politics and the backbiting, the reaction videos and the call-outs and all that sort of stuff? 'Cause I think you've done a very-

   6. MTMike Thurston2:03

      Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson2:03

      You've done a very good job of avoiding that.

   8. MTMike Thurston2:05

      Mm-hmm. I think I've never really been massively opinionated on anything. I'm quite neutral. And I would keep, like, say for example, a lot of my content training related, it would just be about the training. I would never call anyone out or say anyone else's name. It would just be what I believe you need to do when it comes to training, building muscle, losing body fat. Same thing when I transitioned to vlogs and lifestyle, it was mainly just either about me and what I was up to or the place that I'm going to, not about the people.

   9. CWChris Williamson2:37

      Is that a purpose-built strategy to avoid getting yourself into politics or is that just natural?

   10. MTMike Thurston2:43

       I think so. I think I generally just don't like drama. I would like to avoid it if possible.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:49

       Mm-hmm. Why?

   12. MTMike Thurston2:51

       'Cause it's just ... Just don't like it.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:54

       Stress?

   14. MTMike Thurston2:54

       Stress. And I think, um, I think it's petty. Once like the drama starts, it's like backwards, forwards, backwards, forwards, and it never really ends. And then sometimes it can get a little bit like c- some people might say something they regret.

   15. CWChris Williamson3:08

       Mm-hmm.

   16. MTMike Thurston3:09

       And I didn't want to do something or make a video where I look back and think, "Oh, that was a bit stupid and childish."

   17. CWChris Williamson3:13

       Yeah. What about the principles? What else have you done, you know, looking back on the, the come up to get from where you were to where you are now? What-

   18. MTMike Thurston3:19

       Just being myself. I think you see a lot of trends over time. And people tend to try and like hop onto trends or do what's other people are doing who are really popular. But I just stuck to doing what I do and I feel comfortable doing. And I feel like that has worked massively for me. And-

   19. CWChris Williamson3:39

       The, the problem that people come up against, I think, is first off, if you're playing a role, like if you're trying to be someone else or your version, like YouTube Mike or YouTube whatever, you get found out pretty quickly because people are always going to look for hypocrisy or discontinuity between who you say you are and who you actually end up being.

   20. MTMike Thurston3:57

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:58

       And the other side I, I think that we're both pretty aligned on is if you're not careful, you get known for the drama and nothing else.

   22. MTMike Thurston4:05

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:05

       You don't actually get known for your work or your takes or your expertise or your insights or anything like that. What you get known for is like, "Okay, when's the next reaction video-"

   24. MTMike Thurston4:14

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:15

       "... back and forth thing coming?" And that's-

   26. MTMike Thurston4:16

       And that-

   27. CWChris Williamson4:16

       ... like a really bad situation to be in.

   28. MTMike Thurston4:18

       Yeah, like the prime example of that in the fitness industry would be Greg Doucette. And fair play, he's doing his thing. That's obviously his business model and it's working, he's getting the views. But like you said, that's, that's kind of what he's known for. And that's not something I would ever ... I wouldn't want to be known for the guy that has made a platform or generated a, a big following just from doing reaction videos of other people.

   29. CWChris Williamson4:42

       Hmm. Would you watch Greg's content if it wasn't sometimes like-

   30. MTMike Thurston4:48

       No. No. I do watch some videos.
3. 6:20 – 12:50

   Would Mike Get Tested by Derek MPMD?

   1. CWChris Williamson6:20

      uh, him and Matt did, DoesFitness-

   2. MTMike Thurston6:21

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:22

      ... 'cause last time that we spoke was about two and a half years ago-

   4. MTMike Thurston6:25

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:25

      ... a couple of miles in that direction, I think.

   6. MTMike Thurston6:27

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson6:27

      And we were talking then, and all of the, like, is he natural accusations that have followed you since we were in uni, basically-

   8. MTMike Thurston6:35

      Oh, yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson6:35

      ... like, 15 years ago. And I think that one of the concerns that you'd had then was, well, no matter what test you do, there is always going to be somebody that says-

   10. MTMike Thurston6:43

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson6:43

       ... it's insufficient, it's not enough, it's blah, blah, blah. And I think Matt had that problem too.

   12. MTMike Thurston6:48

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson6:48

       Matt went to Derek and said, "Design me the most rigorous randomized testing protocol in the world."

   14. MTMike Thurston6:53

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson6:54

       Is that something that you've-

   16. MTMike Thurston6:55

       Yes (laughs) . I've emailed Derek, and I've WhatsApp'd Derek two months ago.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:01

       Write?

   18. MTMike Thurston7:02

       No reply.

   19. CWChris Williamson7:03

       You're kidding me.

   20. MTMike Thurston7:04

       (laughs) Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson7:04

       You're kidding.

   22. MTMike Thurston7:05

       (laughs) I'll show you after this. Because I spoke to, obviously, I've seen this all happening. I've been watching the videos. I speak to Matt, he's like one of my best friends.

   23. CWChris Williamson7:11

       Yep.

   24. MTMike Thurston7:12

       And, um, Matt was telling me, 'cause I asked for his number, Matt was saying, uh, "Just be aware, it's a massive ball ache on both ends." Because he has to be available to do all these random tests, and he's gotta pay for it. But then Derek has to do so much organization, you know, he's getting things set up in a country which he doesn't live in. And the whole process, he can't just do all these random tests in a, a week or two weeks. It has to be over a-

   25. CWChris Williamson7:38

       Extended period.

   26. MTMike Thurston7:39

       ... four, five-month period.

   27. CWChris Williamson7:40

       Yeah.

   28. MTMike Thurston7:41

       So, um, he got on that first, did everything he could've possibly done, and proved that he's not taking anything. There's still, th-

   29. CWChris Williamson7:48

       I didn't see, so I saw the announcement of Matt's thing.

   30. MTMike Thurston7:51

       Yeah.
4. 12:50 – 19:20

   Will Jesse James Will Burn Out?

   1. CWChris Williamson12:50

      of fitness. Is that a trend?

   2. MTMike Thurston12:51

      But I, I feel like that is what YouTube is becoming. It's becoming more of a platform for education. Like you said, there is, there, there is always gonna be room for those, uh, vloggers and lifestyle people, like Jesse James. He's smashing it at the moment.

   3. CWChris Williamson13:06

      He's absolutely fucking destroying it, yeah.

   4. MTMike Thurston13:08

      But there's only very few people who can do that. And maybe this... Uh, I feel like it's, well, it's one of those things where people have seen everything.

   5. CWChris Williamson13:18

      True.

   6. MTMike Thurston13:18

      It's hard to be unique.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:19

      Reinvent something, yeah. So, Zach, my housemate, was at the Arnold Classic a couple of weeks ago. And, uh, Jesse James was there with an army of security guys. I don't... I d- he didn't know what he was dressed up as. He was dressed up as something. He had a big suit on, he had a big beard on. Maybe he was being Chris Bumsteady, I don't know.

   8. MTMike Thurston13:36

      No.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:36

      He was like, he was being something. And, uh, Zach said watching it from the outside is fucking insane.

   10. MTMike Thurston13:41

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson13:41

       Like, 'cause it's just this gr- reality distortion field moving through, uh, a crowd of people.

   12. MTMike Thurston13:47

       He, he's, he's one of the best I've seen. He came to Dubai.

   13. CWChris Williamson13:52

       Yes, he did a video-

   14. MTMike Thurston13:53

       And I, I, yeah-

   15. CWChris Williamson13:53

       You featured in a video, I remember.

   16. MTMike Thurston13:54

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson13:55

       Yeah.

   18. MTMike Thurston13:55

       And I, I just watched him work and I was like, "Wow." Like, everything he's got, he thoroughly deserves. However, he's not gonna be able to keep that up.

   19. CWChris Williamson14:03

       Why?

   20. MTMike Thurston14:04

       'Cause he'll burn out. He's, he's young. I think he's like 23, 24, so he knows when he's at his peak.

   21. CWChris Williamson14:09

       Okay, made of rubber and magic.

   22. MTMike Thurston14:10

       You've got that energy to do it-

   23. CWChris Williamson14:10

       Do you remember being 23 or 24? (laughs)

   24. MTMike Thurston14:12

       Yeah. It was fucking full of energy. (laughs) That's why I'm noticing that. I'm like, I'm gonna be 33 this year, and I'm noticing like, "Fuck, I'm tired." (laughs) And the worst thing is, like Hormozi said it, it's like, "This is the most energetic you are going to be."

   25. CWChris Williamson14:28

       It's downhill from here, yeah.

   26. MTMike Thurston14:29

       It's, it's gonna... (laughs) And I'm like, "Oh..."

   27. CWChris Williamson14:31

       Yeah. Well, Jesse's, Jesse's a very interesting one, I think, because it's the skit style of video without the cringe and the cheese.

   28. MTMike Thurston14:43

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson14:43

       Uh, the one, there was one that he did with Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler that I, to me, pushed the limit on the upper bound. I was like, "If this goes much more, it's gonna be a little bit like, oh."

   30. MTMike Thurston14:53

       Yeah.
5. 19:20 – 23:14

   Advice for YouTube Beginners

   1. MTMike Thurston19:20

   2. CWChris Williamson19:20

      But if someone was starting up a channel now, we were talking about this earlier on, what advice would you say? If someone's listening and they go, "I fancy making a YouTube channel, I'm prepared to sell my soul to the devil. I have absolute- I'll go as low as I need to, I'll p- play any role that I need to." How would you, from first principles, just say, "This is how to get to a million subs as quickly as possible if you're prepared to sell your soul"?

   3. MTMike Thurston19:42

      Yeah, if you wanted to, with the absolute minimal work required, you can just pick up other people's content, viral content, and just react to it, and have some sort of animated reaction which will provide people some form of entertainment. And you're just kind of piggybacking off other people's amazing work. Which is kind of, like, quite questionable, but if you want to grow very quickly, that's one way to do it. Another way, it depends how, how s- knowledgeable you are as a person. Like, if you have a v- not a lot of knowledge to spread, and you're very good at communicating and can present yourself well, all you have to do is just sit down and talk. Make it, you know, a little bit entertaining, have an editor put some cool edits on it, and then you can just bang out videos non-stop.

   4. CWChris Williamson20:28

      That makes it sound very easy.

   5. MTMike Thurston20:31

      Yeah, I guess it's a little bit harder than that, but it's-

   6. CWChris Williamson20:33

      But is, in a way, it's... I'm trying to work out, you know, given the fact that I- I think that you're not far off. I don't disagree.

   7. MTMike Thurston20:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson20:41

      Uh, I'm just trying to work out where it is that people get stuck.

   9. MTMike Thurston20:44

      They don't have a skill set. They don't have any value to offer, I think.

   10. CWChris Williamson20:48

       Oh, so they don't have any expertise-

   11. MTMike Thurston20:49

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson20:49

       ... that they can actually talk on? Yeah, well, I mean, w- I was having a discussion-

   13. MTMike Thurston20:52

       (clears throat)

   14. CWChris Williamson20:53

       ... with a friend about this today about, um... A- Aubrey Marcus, uh, CEO of On Nit, founder of On Nit, now sold it, um, told me this thing a few years ago. He said that you don't serve people from your cup. You serve them from the saucer that overflows around your cup. And he's saying it in classic Austin psychedelic-

   15. MTMike Thurston21:10

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson21:10

       ... f- fashion, right? But what he actually means is sort your shit first. Right? You need to make sure that you are sufficiently capable to do the you thing-

   17. MTMike Thurston21:19

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson21:20

       ... before you then try and proselytize to the world about how they should be doing it, or how you did it, and they can do it-

   19. MTMike Thurston21:27

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson21:27

       ... how you did it and stuff. Which is why I think if you look at almost all of the podcasts that are doing very well, you know, you're talking, like, Rogan, 50s, Huberman, 40s, like, Tim Dillon, 30s-

   21. MTMike Thurston21:40

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson21:40

       ... Chris D'Elia, late 30s, 40s. Like, all of these, you know, whether it's comedy, whether it's... Whatever. Pick, pick your big-name-

   23. MTMike Thurston21:47

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson21:47

       ... podcast. Tim Ferriss, 40s. Like, these guys are older. Well, hang on. If you go to other social media, they're not the ones that crush on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, unless it's repurposing content-

   25. MTMike Thurston21:59

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson21:59

       ... from a different platform. And I think that the reason for that is... And it's a very good change. We can, like, complain about... And I do, I'm, like, rail against TikTok and short form, and it's killing people's brains and blah, blah. But certainly, one of the good things is that people who have genuine expertise and who don't have been thrown into harsh light by long-form conversations.

   27. MTMike Thurston22:19

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson22:19

       Because if you-

   29. MTMike Thurston22:20

       That's a good thing.

   30. CWChris Williamson22:21

       ... s- sit someone down-
6. 23:14 – 33:56

   Why Are Men Feeling Lost?

   1. MTMike Thurston23:14

   2. CWChris Williamson23:14

      What's your views on why men are feeling sort of quite lost at the moment? 'Cause me and you went to uni at basically the same time. I think we're one or two years-

   3. MTMike Thurston23:22

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson23:22

      ... age difference. We did the same course at Newcastle. We trained at the Center for Sporting Excellence-

   5. MTMike Thurston23:26

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson23:27

      ... right, the CSE together, which would have been your first major, like, consistent gym, I'm gonna guess?

   7. MTMike Thurston23:30

      Yeah, yeah. That's when I would do my bro split for the first time. (laughs)

   8. CWChris Williamson23:33

      (laughs) Damn right. Um, so we would have been walking through Richardson Road, halls of residence in... Where did you live? Where were you in first year?

   9. MTMike Thurston23:40

      Castle Leazes.

   10. CWChris Williamson23:41

       Wait, are you posh twat?

   11. MTMike Thurston23:43

       No, yeah, but this is the thing. I didn't kno- I didn't... I don't know why I picked it, but I picked it, and then I realized I was, like, the only northerner there.

   12. CWChris Williamson23:52

       Correct, yeah. So for the people that-

   13. MTMike Thurston23:53

       Just the full surface of there.

   14. CWChris Williamson23:53

       For the people that don't know, Newcastle University, northeast of the UK.

   15. MTMike Thurston23:56

       Should have been in Richardson Road.

   16. CWChris Williamson23:57

       Should have been in Ric- Rickey Road. Um, I was in St. Mary's in Fenham because I put it as my insurance-

   17. MTMike Thurston24:01

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson24:01

       ... and they make you pay. Uh, you were in with all of the posh boys.

   19. MTMike Thurston24:04

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson24:04

       My point being, when we went to university, when we were the age of a lot of the guys that are seeking advice online at the moment...

   21. MTMike Thurston24:11

       There was, there was nothing online.

   22. CWChris Williamson24:13

       But I don't think that there was a sense of being lost-

   23. MTMike Thurston24:16

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson24:16

       ... despite the fact that there was less information out there.

   25. MTMike Thurston24:18

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson24:19

       I don't think that... And, and that's not to say that me and you tumbled into some, like, perfect, slick archetype of being-

   27. MTMike Thurston24:28

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson24:28

       ... of finding our place within university or whatever.

   29. MTMike Thurston24:31

       Mm-hmm.

   30. CWChris Williamson24:31

       I think both of us in, like-... like, certain ways were a little bit disjointed and took time to find our feet.
7. 33:56 – 38:00

   The Essence of True Masculinity

   1. CWChris Williamson33:56

      the, you know, coming out the back at this conversation I had, uh, yesterday at this debate in Doha, it was all about masculinity, masculinity being under attack, and I think that this is a concern for women as well, like a massive concern. So I found, I found this really, really, like, interesting story about the, uh, Batman Dark Knight Rises, uh, movie premiere. So it was 2012 in Aurora, Colorado, and there was a- a shooting that happened there. The shooter was a lone man, I think he was 27 years old, so he enters the movie theater and he starts unloading rounds, just kind of at will. And three men, 24, 26, and 27, threw themselves on top of their girlfriends to use their bodies as shields. All three men died. All three women survived.

   2. MTMike Thurston34:41

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson34:42

      If that is the kind of masculinity that you want to get rid of in the modern world, if that's the one that is toxic and, uh, part of a oppressive patriarchal super structure that's misogynistically keeping everybody down, and you want to get rid of that, we don't live on the same planet.

   4. MTMike Thurston34:58

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson34:58

      Like, there is no world in which that is the sort of benevolent force for good, where somebody sacrifices themselves for someone that they love, that you want to get rid of. Like, how can you tell me that that's something-

   6. MTMike Thurston35:11

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson35:11

      ... that's a good way, that- that we should get rid of that in-built, uh, uh, desire to protect? And here's the thing. You could say that it's chivalry or it's cultured or it's societally programmed. You're telling me that these guys, after bullets are flying, have thought to themselves, "Hmm, like what's the, like, uh, proper thing to do and what would society want me to do?" And from first principles, they've created a world where they go, "Oh, yes, I should throw myself on top." No, it's a- an instinct that's deeper and more- more in-built than that. And I'm just, I'm really, uh, genuinely becoming concerned about this retreat from society that men are suffering with. And I couldn't agree more, man. Like, I'm-

   8. MTMike Thurston35:59

      D- do you think men are, uh, the- they're fighting back a bit now thanks to Andrew Tate? There's more people bringing out more masculine content, standing up for masculinity.

   9. CWChris Williamson36:10

      Yes, I think the best-

   10. MTMike Thurston36:12

       Maybe not in the mainstream media, but I feel like on social media there's more of it.

   11. CWChris Williamson36:17

       I would agree. Uh, I certainly think that Tate's got an exaggerated view of masculinity.

   12. MTMike Thurston36:22

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson36:22

       And I think that Shapiro hits the nail on the head, which is that Tate is almost always right about the diagnosis, but significantly less right about the prescription to fix it.

   14. MTMike Thurston36:34

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson36:35

       That he is able to point out the problems, but his solutions, much of the time, aren't going to be quite as effective.

   16. MTMike Thurston36:42

       Yeah, I think the delivery needed work as well.

   17. CWChris Williamson36:44

       Yeah. So there's a- a concept I've come up with called the soft signal of effectiveness, and what this means is that, um, if you are having a discussion with somebody that disagrees with you or that maybe just hasn't made their mind up-You have to realize if you make them feel silly or foolish or ridiculous, that they're going to dig their heels into their position. You don't, nobody has ever been patronized or ridiculed into changing their mind, because it just creates this defense to happen, and this is why, like, I'm nowhere near red-pilled enough for most of the manosphere, but I'm significantly far too red-pilled for almost all of the people that are on the more woke-y side of things. Um, but I genuinely believe that that's the most effective way to change minds. Like, if you make people s- feel silly, they're gonna dig their heels in-

   18. MTMike Thurston37:31

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson37:31

       ... and I think that that's one of the challenges that, that Andrew comes up against. Now, it garners an awful lot of views, which is great, and it, it is good for getting a message out there. But in terms of changing behavior effectively, I'm not too sure.

   20. MTMike Thurston37:42

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson37:42

       Obviously, you, you had, how many plays has that video got?

   22. MTMike Thurston37:46

       That's nearly six million views now.

   23. CWChris Williamson37:47

       Is that your most-played video?

   24. MTMike Thurston37:48

       No, it'd be like this, I think it's like the third most played.

   25. CWChris Williamson37:51

       Right.

   26. MTMike Thurston37:51

       (laughs)

   27. CWChris Williamson37:51

       So it's like climbing up to the top there. Yeah, and you did that-

   28. MTMike Thurston37:53

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson37:53

       ... kind of a little bit before his-

   30. MTMike Thurston37:56

       Yeah. Yeah.
8. 38:00 – 44:17

   Spending Time with Andrew Tate

   1. CWChris Williamson38:00

      about the challenges that men face in the modern world.

   2. MTMike Thurston38:02

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson38:03

      Problems of masculinity. You've spent a good bit of time with Tate. What were your thoughts after having spent time with him? How do you think he's contributing to the conversation on masculinity? Where's he failing and falling short?

   4. MTMike Thurston38:16

      I think th- the problem was all the short-form content that was getting put out there, obviously it was just, like, the most extreme, out-of-context clips, mostly from some of his old videos. So when he, when he started off, he's been doing content for a long time. His older videos are just wild. Like he's just saying some mad shit. But he can do because nobody's even watching, right? So there's, when not many people are watching your videos, you can get away with saying a lot more. As he became drastically popular, obviously people were going back to the old videos and were like, "What the hell?" They were using that content and it was just going crazy. I, when I first came across him, he actually DMed me. This, this was in 2021. And, um, I went on his Instagram and I went through a few pictures and I just thought, "Who is this guy?" Like, it seemed like he was, um, trying to show off a little bit too much. And I thought it was all just a front. You know how a lot of people out here are just fake?

   5. CWChris Williamson39:19

      Renti- renting cars.

   6. MTMike Thurston39:19

      They're just trying to, ren- renting cars.

   7. CWChris Williamson39:21

      Yeah.

   8. MTMike Thurston39:21

      Trying to show, "Hey, I've got money." That's what I thought when I saw him. I was like, "This guy's just chatting shit." But then I did a little bit of research and I listened to some of the podcasts. I think the first one he went on that I listened to was Fresh & Fit, and then that was the first time I- I'd- I'd actually listened to someone, I was like, "Whoa, like this guy, this guy is speaking in a way that I've never heard anyone speak before. And he's saying things which I haven't really heard anyone say before." So I was intrigued and I wanted to listen to more, and then I was like, "Actually, do you know what? I want to meet this guy." So he came to Dubai, we linked up, we did the videos, it was just after-

   9. CWChris Williamson39:51

      Did he come up especially to see you?

   10. MTMike Thurston39:53

       I think he, I mean, he's always, he's always do- doing business wherever he goes. But I guess maybe that was part of the plan at that point, he just wanted to, 'cause he saw, he must have seen me, probably thought, "Oh yeah, Mike seems like a cool guy," but he saw the audience.

   11. CWChris Williamson40:05

       How wrong he was.

   12. MTMike Thurston40:06

       And it was, and... (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson40:08

       (laughs)

   14. MTMike Thurston40:08

       And then he probably thinks, "You know what?" Like, he was obviously on a mission to-

   15. CWChris Williamson40:10

       Grow.

   16. MTMike Thurston40:11

       ... get more followers so he can-

   17. CWChris Williamson40:12

       Yeah.

   18. MTMike Thurston40:13

       ... push whatever he needs to push. So he, he probably would have seen me, "Okay, yeah, I'll do a video with Mike and then that can help me out with my branding and exposure." Obviously that worked very well. But, um, yeah, I met him in real life and he's, he's actually an even better guy. I know a lot of people don't like him. But he, in real life, he's, like, a nice guy. Polite. He's actually funny. And, um, I think that's a side which a lot of people don't see because they, he definitely does put on some kind of a character, especially in the videos which he makes himself. And he says things that I'm just like, "Ugh." Like, "Why do you say that?" It's like s- 70% of the stuff he says, he's like, "Yeah, like, I strongly agree with that." And then he will go and say something absolutely ridiculous where it's just like, "Why did you need to say that?"

   19. CWChris Williamson41:01

       Because that's the 30% that people are going to focus on.

   20. MTMike Thurston41:03

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson41:04

       Yeah, I think, a- again, this didn't quite come up yesterday, it came up with, uh, Jordan Peterson as the example. But I said something to the effect of, um, if you're not happy with the role models that are currently being held up for men, offer up other ones.

   22. MTMike Thurston41:20

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson41:21

       And I asked the guy that was across from me, the debater, "Who do you think is a good role model for men?" And he struggled a little bit.

   24. MTMike Thurston41:31

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson41:32

       Uh, he struggled a lot actually.

   26. MTMike Thurston41:34

       It's hard to find someone who's the full package, I think.

   27. CWChris Williamson41:35

       Correct. But I was, I was able to say, "Well look, like, it's not perfect, but I would say that the kind of man that Peterson would tell you to be, your Andrew Hubermans of the world, your Tim Ferrisses of the world, your Joe Rogans of the world, your Jocko Willinks. Like, these are people that seem to have codes of honor and ethics, they do hard things, they're courageous and brave. Like, you know?"

   28. MTMike Thurston41:56

       They don't get into drama.

   29. CWChris Williamson41:57

       They don't get into drama.

   30. MTMike Thurston41:58

       (laughs)
9. 44:17 – 51:41

   The Lack of Female Role Models

   1. CWChris Williamson44:17

      is coming for women, you know, for the girls that have been, uh, left out of this conversation so far, I think that there is a, burbling below the surface, I think that there is a concern, a big concern for role models for girls as well.

   2. MTMike Thurston44:30

      Yeah, this is, this is a, this is a problem. This, 'cause I'm actually trying to find some really good female role models for the podcast.

   3. CWChris Williamson44:38

      (laughs)

   4. MTMike Thurston44:38

      And it's quite hard to do that out here.

   5. CWChris Williamson44:43

      Yeah, I wonder-

   6. MTMike Thurston44:43

      The-

   7. CWChris Williamson44:43

      ... 'cause we were talking about this before.

   8. MTMike Thurston44:45

      I w- I, I don't know, 'cause there, there is a lot of successful, smart women, but they don't wanna raise their voice. They don't want to be on the camera. They don't wanna-

   9. CWChris Williamson44:57

      Why do you think that is?

   10. MTMike Thurston44:58

       I don't know. This is what I'm trying to figure out.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:01

       You've, you've reached out to them and suggested things?

   12. MTMike Thurston45:02

       I've r- I've reached out to a few. I have, I have friends, um, got a big following, very smart, very intelligent, and they're just like-

   13. CWChris Williamson45:11

       Don't want to do it?

   14. MTMike Thurston45:11

       ... they're avoiding it. And I'm like, "I am literally giving you an opportunity to be the voice of women-

   15. CWChris Williamson45:17

       Yep.

   16. MTMike Thurston45:17

       ... and to be a role model to all the women out there-

   17. CWChris Williamson45:20

       Mm-hmm.

   18. MTMike Thurston45:21

       ... that they need. Why, why are you not doing it?"

   19. CWChris Williamson45:25

       (smacks lips) That's very interesting. So, uh, let me put my evolutionary psychologist hat on for a second. Um-

   20. MTMike Thurston45:30

       I w- I would say, first of all, maybe it's the, uh, they're probably a lot more bothered about how they look on camera. So they would probably want everything to be perfect.

   21. CWChris Williamson45:38

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MTMike Thurston45:39

       And women have bad days and they'll be like, "Oh, oh, my hair is messed up today, so maybe I'm, I'm not gonna film." Or like, "Oh, I don't like the angle the camera is facing on my face."

   23. CWChris Williamson45:51

       Interesting.

   24. MTMike Thurston45:51

       (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson45:52

       Yeah, I mean, it takes a very particular type of woman to decide to put herself out there as a spokesperson. Um, so th- this, uh, evolutionary psychology bias that it seems that women have, they, they try and flatten hierarchies. So, a bunch of studies show that if females, especially girls in school, know that their grades are going to be made public, they're going to downplay what they got. So if guys get an A, if me and you were in uni-

   26. MTMike Thurston46:20

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson46:20

       ... and we walked out of some accounting exam in the CSE or, like, Henderson Hall or wherever the, our exam was-

   28. MTMike Thurston46:26

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson46:26

       ... we would walk outside, or let's say that we got, it was a multiple choice and we got the results there and then, and I got an A and you got a B, I'd stick it in your face.

   30. MTMike Thurston46:32

       Yeah.
10. 51:41 – 1:01:35

    Mike’s Relationship with Alcohol

    1. CWChris Williamson51:41

       your relationship with alcohol.

    2. MTMike Thurston51:42

       Oh, yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson51:42

       Talk to me about your relationship with alcohol and how it's changed.

    4. MTMike Thurston51:45

       Yeah, so I, um, I pretty much barely drink anymore. Um, I used to be, I guess that's 'cause it's the whole British culture, I actually drank numerous times per week, particularly when I was growing up. University, then even throughout my 20s, I was very much into my fitness, but at the same time, there was always at least one extremely heavy blowout at the weekend. And then, um, it just carried on, like even, I think when I was, when I was th- just before, no, 29, I did the first experiment where I went sober for six months. And that taught me a lot, because I was put in situations where I would normally drink, and because I was doing this challenge, I wasn't allowed to drink. And I think that was the first time that I was in situations where, uh, usually I would be drunk and like in a relaxed state, whatever it might be, but this time like, I was sober. I was doing something which I would never do, and I actually realized it wasn't that hard to do, and I actually quite liked it. And I think I just, life is just short and I can't afford to have days wasting away feeling sorry for myself, being ex- aggressively hungover, which at the age I'm at now, it, the, it was a pretty aggressive-

    5. CWChris Williamson53:06

       They hit hard.

    6. MTMike Thurston53:06

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson53:06

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    8. MTMike Thurston53:07

       But the, what I'll, what I'll do now is I will, I will still drink, but it usually tends to be when I have done, achieved something or I've got the job done and I can celebrate. It's like, "Okay, you've achieved this. Let's go out, let's celebrate, have a drink if you want to have a drink." Once that's over, then it's back to the grind again.

    9. CWChris Williamson53:32

       What else have you learned from your time going sober? Obviously the reason for doing it is that you don't want to waste-

    10. MTMike Thurston53:38

        Um...

    11. CWChris Williamson53:38

        ... your days so much, but what else have you learned?

    12. MTMike Thurston53:40

        I actually really enjoy my reality being sober. Um, I actually don't really like the feeling of being drunk anymore. I think now I'm at a point where I feel like I'm very much in control. I like the, I really like the person who I am now when I'm sober. I can, I'm extremely co- more, a lot more confident now. I can have conversations with anyone, I can charm people, I can, you know, have a laugh, I can have a dance, I can do whatever I need to do, but I can do it sober and there's actually no real need for me to drink. And when I do drink, I realize actually, I start to get a little bit sloppy with my words. I say things which I wouldn't normally say, might potentially regret. And then there's parts of the night, the whole conversation, which I won't remember, and then I wake up feeling like absolute trash. Spend a lot of money as well out here on alcohol, which is usually just not wise. So it's, uh, (laughs) when I compare the positives to the negatives, there's actually very few positives.

    13. CWChris Williamson54:39

        Yeah. So this, I mean, you know, this was something-

    14. MTMike Thurston54:43

        I, I don't, I don't know, I'm thinking now like, so why did I drink so-

    15. CWChris Williamson54:46

        That's the question I had on the tip of my tongue.

    16. MTMike Thurston54:48

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson54:48

        Like you've, you've, you've laid out this balance sheet of positives and negatives.

    18. MTMike Thurston54:53

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson54:54

        Why did either of us, and this is both of our upbringings, right? You know, our formative years in Newcastle, and then both of us stuck about once we finished our degrees, going out, drinking trebs-... you know —

    20. MTMike Thurston55:08

        You could get absolutely annihilated for, like, 10 pounds.

    21. CWChris Williamson55:12

        Correct. Yeah, so, again, for the people who don't know, when we were at uni, you could have got three treble vodka-

    22. MTMike Thurston55:17

        Two tips for 40.

    23. CWChris Williamson55:17

        ... mixers for a fiver and you'd usually get a free Jagerbomb with each of them. So that's nine shots of vodka, plus three shots of Jager for a fiver. And the way that it would work is you couldn't carry all of them back.

    24. MTMike Thurston55:28

        Mm-hmm.

    25. CWChris Williamson55:28

        You would have to pour all of the Jagers in together, drink that, drink one of the trebs, and then carry two back. Um, so what I'm thinking is, why is it that we ever saw it as something that not only we would do, we would willingly do, we would repeatedly do two nights a week throughout all of uni? Why?

    26. MTMike Thurston55:51

        I think, uh, from thinking back when I was at university, I actually don't re- now that I recall, I don't know anybody that didn't drink. I feel like every single person drank.

    27. CWChris Williamson56:02

        Yep.

    28. MTMike Thurston56:02

        And if there was anyone that didn't drink, they were just, they were wei-... You wouldn't hang out with them.

    29. CWChris Williamson56:09

        Like, they weren't a part of the social group.

    30. MTMike Thurston56:10

        Yeah.
11. 1:01:35 – 1:07:14

    Developing New Skills

    1. CWChris Williamson1:01:35

       now, you've got, you're doing business stuff. You've got clothing, you've got app, you're still growing your platforms.

    2. MTMike Thurston1:01:42

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

       As a, a guy that from the outside looks like he's accomplished a lot of things and is living a, a, an enjoyable life in a desirable city-

    4. MTMike Thurston1:01:51

       I actually have no money.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:01:52

       Yeah. (laughs) Skint.

    6. MTMike Thurston1:01:53

       (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson1:01:53

       Spend it all on this apartment. Spend it all on this very expensive apartment.

    8. MTMike Thurston1:01:57

       (laughs)

    9. CWChris Williamson1:01:57

       Um, what are you, are you accumulating skills at the moment? Are you developing yourself? Are there certain things that you've set yourself with regards to goals?

    10. MTMike Thurston1:02:07

        I think the, uh, the podcast thing has massively improved my ability to have a, a conversation. And-

    11. CWChris Williamson1:02:14

        Even only 13 episodes in already?

    12. MTMike Thurston1:02:15

        Yeah. (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson1:02:16

        Wow.

    14. MTMike Thurston1:02:16

        I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm learning a hell of a lot, which is, which is good. But I'm doing the podcast more just to help with growing the brand, and particularly the networking. Because being in Dubai, there's always so many people coming in and out, and whenever I do meet up with someone who is quite interesting, I end up having a really amazing conversation. I'm like-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:02:39

        "Should've recorded that."

    16. MTMike Thurston1:02:40

        ... "yeah, like this, this needs to be out there." And it's not the right ti- like, you can't do, it wouldn't work in a vlog. Because a vlog, you chop things up and it's like, you would only take five minutes of it. So, that was one reason. And then another one is, um, it gives you, it opens doors for meeting very interesting people, all, people who I respect and want to meet.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:03:01

        Thank you.

    18. MTMike Thurston1:03:02

        Because (laughs) , I, you know, somebody who, say for example, who's been very successful or they're, they're killing it, making loads of money, I maybe don't really have much to offer them. Maybe I could help them get in shape. But that's not a quick fix, and it's not something I particularly want to do. I don't want to be a personal trainer for celebrities. But when you have an audience and you have a platform, all of a sudden you become, uh, potentially a good asset to them. Because if they're releasing a book or they wanna spread a message or they want to increase their own following, then coming onto the podcast is gonna be exactly what they want. So, that's, it's like a strategic thing.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:03:45

        Mm-hmm.

    20. MTMike Thurston1:03:45

        But I'm also learning a lot at the same time.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:03:48

        Is there anything else? Is there anything else that you're thinking at the moment is, uh, an area of your life that needs optimizing?

    22. MTMike Thurston1:03:53

        Yeah. Um, monetizing the following, 'cause, uh-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:03:58

        You and me both.

    24. MTMike Thurston1:03:59

        ... yeah. So, I think, um, I've been good at building a brand and growing a following, but I'm actually quite shit at selling things. And-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:04:10

        You and me both.

    26. MTMike Thurston1:04:12

        ... (laughs) and marketing.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:04:13

        You and me both.

    28. MTMike Thurston1:04:13

        So, and it's, it's, it's weird 'cause I guess I never really learnt much about it. Like, I'd, even though I went to school, went to university, you don't get taught how to sell at school, how to market. University, I did economics and business management, but still, it was like, so heavy on the theory, the maths, the equations. I was like, "I thought I was gonna learn how to run a business here, but I'm not learning any of that." So, those skills, I never really developed. And obviously I got straight into personal training, so I mastered the art of building muscle, losing body f- body fat, how to communicate with people, uh, my presentation skills, but no marketing or sales.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:04:50

        It's not commercializing stuff.

    30. MTMike Thurston1:04:52

        Mm-hmm.
12. 1:07:14 – 1:13:41

    Why Logan & Jake Paul Seem Indestructible

    1. MTMike Thurston1:07:14

       happened with Logan Paul? Like, he's just (whispers) fucked his rep.

    2. CWChris Williamson1:07:17

       So, I mean, he's a really good example, or a very interesting one, because it seems like him and his brother can just steamroll through issues.

    3. MTMike Thurston1:07:25

       Mm.

    4. CWChris Williamson1:07:26

       You know, the Coffeezilla thing was really damning. It was a two-part or three-part series that kind of broke down all of this stuff that Logan was doing with his NFTs. And then Coffee goes on Rogan, and Rogan asks him-

    5. MTMike Thurston1:07:37

       Yeah, I listened to that.

    6. CWChris Williamson1:07:38

       ... "What's the biggest thing?" And then they, they pull that, and they put that on a clip on Rogan's 20 million-person YouTube channel, which gives it another lease of life.

    7. MTMike Thurston1:07:46

       Mm-hmm.

    8. CWChris Williamson1:07:47

       And meanwhile, Logan Paul is doing WWE, he's s- making money on Prime, and he's got all of these businesses. I don't know what it is, and I would love for someone to explain it to me. Those guys, both Logan and Jake, have an uncanny ability to just keep moving through obstacles.

    9. MTMike Thurston1:08:05

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson1:08:05

        Bad things happen, and it just doesn't faze them. I remember, after the Tommy Fury-Jake Paul fight-

    11. MTMike Thurston1:08:13

        (coughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson1:08:13

        ... there was a video that he uploaded, might even have been the first story of the next day on his Instagram. And (laughs) it was him going, looking at the camera, and being happy, and then looking down a- a- and putting his head in his hands as if he was sad. And the caption below was, "When you lost the fight but made 30 mil."

    13. MTMike Thurston1:08:29

        (laughs)

    14. CWChris Williamson1:08:30

        (laughs) It's like, you can't fucking knock it. You can't knock that.

    15. MTMike Thurston1:08:35

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson1:08:36

        Um, so there's something happening with them, and I really want to try and deconstruct what's going on to, to-

    17. MTMike Thurston1:08:43

        Yeah. Well, I, I think the fighting thing was very good, 'cause you, you can't — you've always got to respect someone who's going to step into the ring.

    18. CWChris Williamson1:08:48

        Good point.

    19. MTMike Thurston1:08:49

        Like, you, even I have not done that.

    20. CWChris Williamson1:08:52

        But why is Logan able to continue plowing through these challenges and accusations of, of, of NFT fuckery and stuff?

    21. MTMike Thurston1:09:01

        It's weird. Yeah, it's weird. Because it's almost like, maybe it's because he's been through it before, and he knows, "Yep, you're going to be the most hated man on the planet for a couple of days or weeks, and then people forget about it, and then it's just back to business as usual."

    22. CWChris Williamson1:09:14

        Mm. So he's personally capable of dealing with it. But e- even that, like, you know, someone could be personally capable and their reputation could be damaged. That should be independent of what happens to their reputation.

    23. MTMike Thurston1:09:25

        Well, do you, do you think, let's say, for example, everything that's happened with Liver King. Do you think his reputation is (cries) because I went on his Instagram the other day, and he's still getting loads of likes, and comments, and views, and I'm like, "Why are people still watching this (laughs) ?"

    24. CWChris Williamson1:09:37

        Unbelievable. I don't know.

    25. MTMike Thurston1:09:39

        Like, how, how is this house still a thing?

    26. CWChris Williamson1:09:43

        Okay, so here's what-

    27. MTMike Thurston1:09:43

        He was there, just with a big plate of testicles. And I just thought, "Wow, he's still-"

    28. CWChris Williamson1:09:50

        Nothing's changed.

    29. MTMike Thurston1:09:51

        "... he's still doing his thing."

    30. CWChris Williamson1:09:53

        What do you think about Liver King?

Episode duration: 1:19:35