Are The Distractions Of Modern Life Stealing Your Purpose? - Mike Thurston

Mike Thurston 0:00 I had no one else to compare myself to. Like, I wasn't comparing myself to any other 22 or 23-year-old out there. In fact, I thought I was doing pretty good, 'cause I was like, "Hey, I've come out of university and I've got a job." Whereas now, you've got people who are like 16, 20, 21, who are just making a killing. And I think because they're so out there on social media, and they have gained quite a lot of following because of the success they've had, I think a lot of guys maybe that age or even a little bit older, they're like, "Hang on. How does this guy manage to make so much money and so successful, and I am literally (laughs) doing nothing with my life?"

Chris Williamson 0:32 Michael Thurston, welcome to my show.

Mike Thurston 0:34 Hello, Chris. Good to see you again.

Chris Williamson 0:36 Thank you for letting me use your house to record this in.

Mike Thurston 0:39 What do you think? I know you're a bit of a connoisseur of, uh, setups when it comes to podcasting. What do you think of this one?

Chris Williamson 0:45 I think it's really nice. Uh, I'm loving whatever that is, some old school, old and worldly telescope-type-

Mike Thurston 0:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:51 ... light. I think that's very nice. Very well done. I'm impressed. You've entered the-

Mike Thurston 0:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:55 ... dark and dingy world of-

Mike Thurston 0:57 Podcasting.

Chris Williamson 0:58 ... podcasting, yeah. How are you finding it?

Mike Thurston 0:59 I'm finding it good actually. It's, it's probably been one of the things which I've learnt the most out of, like, what it's taught me so far from just having conversations with people, doing research about people, and being able to hold a conversation, it's, it's been very interesting.

Chris Williamson 1:14 Well, you've done YouTube for a very long time. How long have you been on YouTube now?

Mike Thurston 1:17 First video went up 2016.

Chris Williamson 1:20 It feels like longer than that.

Mike Thurston 1:22 No, it wasn't-

Chris Williamson 1:22 But I guess that's still quite a long time.

Mike Thurston 1:23 No. Yeah. It was, yeah, I went hardcore in 2017. That's when it kind of took off.

Chris Williamson 1:27 So what

Chris Williamson 1:30 ... Looking back now, and obviously having this big arc of content creation for the last, coming up on a decade-

Mike Thurston 1:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:37 ... being on a platform which is getting ever more successful, ever more popular, more and more people joining-

Mike Thurston 1:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:42 ... more and more people being competitive, what have been the principles that have managed to get you to not only a stage that you've got a sizable platform, but also have managed to help you avoid being dragged into the muck and the mire and the politics and the backbiting, the reaction videos and the call-outs and all that sort of stuff? 'Cause I think you've done a very-

Mike Thurston 2:03 Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:03 You've done a very good job of avoiding that.

Mike Thurston 2:05 Mm-hmm. I think I've never really been massively opinionated on anything. I'm quite neutral. And I would keep, like, say for example, a lot of my content training related, it would just be about the training. I would never call anyone out or say anyone else's name. It would just be what I believe you need to do when it comes to training, building muscle, losing body fat. Same thing when I transitioned to vlogs and lifestyle, it was mainly just either about me and what I was up to or the place that I'm going to, not about the people.

Chris Williamson 2:37 Is that a purpose-built strategy to avoid getting yourself into politics or is that just natural?

Mike Thurston 2:43 I think so. I think I generally just don't like drama. I would like to avoid it if possible.

Chris Williamson 2:49 Mm-hmm. Why?

Mike Thurston 2:51 'Cause it's just ... Just don't like it.

Chris Williamson 2:54 Stress?

Mike Thurston 2:54 Stress. And I think, um, I think it's petty. Once like the drama starts, it's like backwards, forwards, backwards, forwards, and it never really ends. And then sometimes it can get a little bit like c- some people might say something they regret.

Chris Williamson 3:08 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 3:09 And I didn't want to do something or make a video where I look back and think, "Oh, that was a bit stupid and childish."

Chris Williamson 3:13 Yeah. What about the principles? What else have you done, you know, looking back on the, the come up to get from where you were to where you are now? What-

Mike Thurston 3:19 Just being myself. I think you see a lot of trends over time. And people tend to try and like hop onto trends or do what's other people are doing who are really popular. But I just stuck to doing what I do and I feel comfortable doing. And I feel like that has worked massively for me. And-

Chris Williamson 3:39 The, the problem that people come up against, I think, is first off, if you're playing a role, like if you're trying to be someone else or your version, like YouTube Mike or YouTube whatever, you get found out pretty quickly because people are always going to look for hypocrisy or discontinuity between who you say you are and who you actually end up being.

Mike Thurston 3:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:58 And the other side I, I think that we're both pretty aligned on is if you're not careful, you get known for the drama and nothing else.

Mike Thurston 4:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:05 You don't actually get known for your work or your takes or your expertise or your insights or anything like that. What you get known for is like, "Okay, when's the next reaction video-"

Mike Thurston 4:14 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:15 "... back and forth thing coming?" And that's-

Mike Thurston 4:16 And that-

Chris Williamson 4:16 ... like a really bad situation to be in.

Mike Thurston 4:18 Yeah, like the prime example of that in the fitness industry would be Greg Doucette. And fair play, he's doing his thing. That's obviously his business model and it's working, he's getting the views. But like you said, that's, that's kind of what he's known for. And that's not something I would ever ... I wouldn't want to be known for the guy that has made a platform or generated a, a big following just from doing reaction videos of other people.

Chris Williamson 4:42 Hmm. Would you watch Greg's content if it wasn't sometimes like-

Mike Thurston 4:48 No. No. I do watch some videos.

Chris Williamson 4:49 Yeah?

Mike Thurston 4:50 Yeah. 'Cause he's, he might just do like a, a, or a reaction or it's almost like a, a news channel now when someone in the fitness industry has done something or something's happening, or usually it's negativity 'cause the negativity brings in the views.

Chris Williamson 5:02 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 5:02 And there's been a few times I'm like, "Ooh, that looks like some juicy gossip." So then I, I watch it.

Chris Williamson 5:06 Yeah. You do need someone to, you do need someone to go out and find out what's going on-

Mike Thurston 5:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:10 ... I suppose. It very much is kind of like a newsfeed for the fitness industry-

Mike Thurston 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:14 ... I suppose.

Mike Thurston 5:15 Derek does it, but Derek has a ... I guess he hasn't done it as much recently. I guess he's onto bigger things now.

Chris Williamson 5:23 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 5:23 But in the past, he used to do that. But it was-

Chris Williamson 5:25 He grinds ... He, I mean, dude, I, I've got to watch 'cause obviously my housemate was a big part of Derek's Liver King video.

Mike Thurston 5:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:33 So Zak Tallander is a guy that I live with, he did the Charlatan's Playbook section of that video. And his editor, Alex, was the guy that actually put the whole thing together.

Mike Thurston 5:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:41 And I watched them work-

Mike Thurston 5:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:42 ... on this thing for fucking ages.

Mike Thurston 5:44 (laughs) He did a very good job of it.

Chris Williamson 5:45 Ages and ages, man. I'm watching it happen and unfold behind the scenes. And I, I, it wouldn't have surprised me if Derek would have asked me to sign an NDA.

Mike Thurston 5:53 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:53 I didn't need to 'cause I'm not gonna tell anyone about it or spoil it, but they worked so fucking hard on that thing.

Mike Thurston 5:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:59 Um, and yeah, I do think that Derek's a particularly good example of someone that just decides, "Okay, here's my expertise."

Mike Thurston 6:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:06 "I'm gonna go at this thing." The problem is that there is a-... a little bit of falloff, he's inevitably going to get himself embroiled in some of those politics.

Mike Thurston 6:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:14 Right? Because of the type of content that he's doing.

Mike Thurston 6:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:17 Obviously, one of the things, one of the things that Derek did recently,

Chris Williamson 6:20 uh, him and Matt did, DoesFitness-

Mike Thurston 6:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:22 ... 'cause last time that we spoke was about two and a half years ago-

Mike Thurston 6:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:25 ... a couple of miles in that direction, I think.

Mike Thurston 6:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:27 And we were talking then, and all of the, like, is he natural accusations that have followed you since we were in uni, basically-

Mike Thurston 6:35 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:35 ... like, 15 years ago. And I think that one of the concerns that you'd had then was, well, no matter what test you do, there is always going to be somebody that says-

Mike Thurston 6:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:43 ... it's insufficient, it's not enough, it's blah, blah, blah. And I think Matt had that problem too.

Mike Thurston 6:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:48 Matt went to Derek and said, "Design me the most rigorous randomized testing protocol in the world."

Mike Thurston 6:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:54 Is that something that you've-

Mike Thurston 6:55 Yes (laughs) . I've emailed Derek, and I've WhatsApp'd Derek two months ago.

Chris Williamson 7:01 Write?

Mike Thurston 7:02 No reply.

Chris Williamson 7:03 You're kidding me.

Mike Thurston 7:04 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:04 You're kidding.

Mike Thurston 7:05 (laughs) I'll show you after this. Because I spoke to, obviously, I've seen this all happening. I've been watching the videos. I speak to Matt, he's like one of my best friends.

Chris Williamson 7:11 Yep.

Mike Thurston 7:12 And, um, Matt was telling me, 'cause I asked for his number, Matt was saying, uh, "Just be aware, it's a massive ball ache on both ends." Because he has to be available to do all these random tests, and he's gotta pay for it. But then Derek has to do so much organization, you know, he's getting things set up in a country which he doesn't live in. And the whole process, he can't just do all these random tests in a, a week or two weeks. It has to be over a-

Chris Williamson 7:38 Extended period.

Mike Thurston 7:39 ... four, five-month period.

Chris Williamson 7:40 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 7:41 So, um, he got on that first, did everything he could've possibly done, and proved that he's not taking anything. There's still, th-

Chris Williamson 7:48 I didn't see, so I saw the announcement of Matt's thing.

Mike Thurston 7:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:51 I never actually saw the results. Did he get bigger-

Mike Thurston 7:54 Yes, so-

Chris Williamson 7:54 ... and leaner and stronger and...

Mike Thurston 7:56 Well, the results, I think, 'cause it, it was all messed up, 'cause he'd torn his Achilles, like, before (laughs) , before the testing started, playing football.

Chris Williamson 8:04 (sighs)

Mike Thurston 8:04 So, he, his, I don't know what he was trying to prove, that he could still maintain his lifts or something?

Chris Williamson 8:08 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 8:09 So, I think he was able to bring it back. But he was getting tested throughout, and there was no funky stuff happening.

Chris Williamson 8:14 Okay.

Mike Thurston 8:15 But it was interesting, because he's making these videos and proving that he's natural, and then there's still people who are like, "Nah, I don't believe you."

Chris Williamson 8:22 They're not happy.

Mike Thurston 8:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:23 So, why did you, i- if that's the case, why would you message Derek if Matt's gone through the most rigorous testing protocol available to man, and that's still not sufficient for some people?

Mike Thurston 8:31 Because it, because I think there's, there's literally nothing more you can do. And if anybody is gonna oversee any kind of testing, I would want Derek to do it, 'cause I'd...

Chris Williamson 8:41 Derek, pick up the phone.

Mike Thurston 8:42 I know.

Chris Williamson 8:43 I'll ring him. I'll ring him once we're finished up. I was texting him this morning.

Mike Thurston 8:45 I've s- I've got the, the email and the WhatsApp.

Chris Williamson 8:48 Wow.

Mike Thurston 8:48 But I'll, I'm not gonna pester him.

Chris Williamson 8:51 To, to give him-

Mike Thurston 8:51 'Cause I imagine, imagine how busy he is now.

Chris Williamson 8:53 To give him his due, that man is drowning in emails 24/7.

Mike Thurston 8:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:57 There was a period, so, I'll ask him if I can put this into the podcast, I'm sure he won't have a problem with it, but we can cut it if, if needs be. Uh, after he released the Liver King video, which was, you know, this big crescendo, and then he does Rogan, then he does me-

Mike Thurston 9:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:11 ... then he does Zach.

Mike Thurston 9:12 Uh, watched them all.

Chris Williamson 9:13 Then, then he does, uh, a, like, a comedy podcast, and then he maybe does one more. And he was like, "Dude, I'm, I have six months of unanswered emails to deal with." Because all he'd been doing was grinding, creating content, and then build up to this kind of big crescendo maximum thing.

Mike Thurston 9:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:28 And then all he's, like, what's he released, like, three videos, maybe, since-

Mike Thurston 9:32 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:33 ... November, December time? Because he's super busy. This is one of the things that, I don't know, people don't really see the pain that goes into creating content like that. Or even for you, it's so effortful to make a fucking vlog.

Mike Thurston 9:47 Yeah, the vlog's long.

Chris Williamson 9:48 Dude, it is so painful. And it looks like a, uh, a beautiful life. The number one, uh, desired job amongst American children is influencer-

Mike Thurston 9:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:58 ... now. And I would imagine that, you know, YouTuber would probably get folded into that. There are some amazing parts of the job, but there are some bits that absolutely suck.

Mike Thurston 10:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:06 If you're sat with your editor the night before it needs to be uploaded, looking at the edit, unhappy with something, giving him amends on frame.io or whatever it is that you're using.

Mike Thurston 10:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:16 It's not that much fun. And I think that what you're seeing with Derek is, you know, the falloff on the other side of that.

Mike Thurston 10:19 Well, it's, it's the same with me. I used to have this really strict schedule, where I would have to post at a certain time on a certain day.

Chris Williamson 10:25 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 10:25 And I would literally be pulling my hair out just to make sure that everything was perfect, everything was filmed. And when I wasn't, you know, maybe two hours were left before the upload and it wasn't ready, I would be so stressed out.

Chris Williamson 10:37 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 10:37 And then I just thought, "It's not even worth it." I was just like-

Chris Williamson 10:39 Just remove the schedule-

Mike Thurston 10:40 I was just like, if it's-

Chris Williamson 10:41 ... and post as and when.

Mike Thurston 10:42 I'll, it's, post it when it's ready.

Chris Williamson 10:43 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 10:43 Post it a day later, two days later.

Chris Williamson 10:45 What do you think, this is an interesting thing, especially given that you've been in the YouTube scene for a very long time, since before, I think before Derek was on YouTube, although he has been on for a long time talking about non-fitness content.

Mike Thurston 10:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:54 Do you think that he has been one of the bigger, biggest influences in kind of shaping fitness YouTube over the last few years? What do you think has sort of improved or changed?

Mike Thurston 11:06 I, I think so, in, in terms of education, definitely. Because he's, he's like a friggin' encyclopedia. He knows so much. So he's definitely, he's definitely had a positive impact. Co- I don't know anyone else who's r- I think there's a few other people now who are pretty clued up when it comes to-

Chris Williamson 11:25 Jeff Nepard, maybe?

Mike Thurston 11:26 Yes. And he puts a hell of a lot of work into his videos.

Chris Williamson 11:29 Yep.

Mike Thurston 11:29 There's another guy, he puts the, I've forgot his name, he puts all these, um, like, uh, re- uh, bands on his muscles...

Chris Williamson 11:37 Okay.

Mike Thurston 11:38 ... so it can pick up the twitching of the fibers. And he does all these exercises.

Chris Williamson 11:42 Oh, is it-

Mike Thurston 11:42 Ryan, Ryan something.

Chris Williamson 11:43 Okay. What, and he, and that will determine how much-

Mike Thurston 11:47 Yeah, so he, he-

Chris Williamson 11:47 ... uh, muscle activation there is?

Mike Thurston 11:48 Yeah, yeah, m- muscle activation doing different exercises. I've never seen it before. And I watched a few of his videos, and he's ve- he's very, uh, charismat- matic and entertaining.

Chris Williamson 11:56 That's cool.

Mike Thurston 11:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:56 Yeah, I, so, what would you, uh, the, the trend when you started YouTube, or, you know, when I-

Mike Thurston 12:03 I, I think I was, I was lucky because I was early.

Chris Williamson 12:05 Yes, I would agree. You know, that Rob Lipsett, like, Harrison-

Mike Thurston 12:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:08 ... Twins kind of era-ish-

Mike Thurston 12:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:11 ... I think was a, you know, it was a golden era for, like, bro content, vlogs, lifestyle, lifting.

Mike Thurston 12:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:18 ... to me now, and I'm outside of that, uh, whatever, like, cohort of delivery on YouTube in any case. But for me, it, it really feels like the, um, evidence-based, you know, sort of-

Mike Thurston 12:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:32 ... more scientific approach to education. I'm sure that there still are big lifestyle channels out there, but, like, I don't see, you know, your Jeff Sides of the world, your David Lades of the world.

Mike Thurston 12:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:42 Like, they don't... That, that style seems to have dropped away. And even your stuff seems to be leaning increasingly towards education-

Mike Thurston 12:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:49 ... even outside

Chris Williamson 12:50 of fitness. Is that a trend?

Mike Thurston 12:51 But I, I feel like that is what YouTube is becoming. It's becoming more of a platform for education. Like you said, there is, there, there is always gonna be room for those, uh, vloggers and lifestyle people, like Jesse James. He's smashing it at the moment.

Chris Williamson 13:06 He's absolutely fucking destroying it, yeah.

Mike Thurston 13:08 But there's only very few people who can do that. And maybe this... Uh, I feel like it's, well, it's one of those things where people have seen everything.

Chris Williamson 13:18 True.

Mike Thurston 13:18 It's hard to be unique.

Chris Williamson 13:19 Reinvent something, yeah. So, Zach, my housemate, was at the Arnold Classic a couple of weeks ago. And, uh, Jesse James was there with an army of security guys. I don't... I d- he didn't know what he was dressed up as. He was dressed up as something. He had a big suit on, he had a big beard on. Maybe he was being Chris Bumsteady, I don't know.

Mike Thurston 13:36 No.

Chris Williamson 13:36 He was like, he was being something. And, uh, Zach said watching it from the outside is fucking insane.

Mike Thurston 13:41 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:41 Like, 'cause it's just this gr- reality distortion field moving through, uh, a crowd of people.

Mike Thurston 13:47 He, he's, he's one of the best I've seen. He came to Dubai.

Chris Williamson 13:52 Yes, he did a video-

Mike Thurston 13:53 And I, I, yeah-

Chris Williamson 13:53 You featured in a video, I remember.

Mike Thurston 13:54 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:55 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 13:55 And I, I just watched him work and I was like, "Wow." Like, everything he's got, he thoroughly deserves. However, he's not gonna be able to keep that up.

Chris Williamson 14:03 Why?

Mike Thurston 14:04 'Cause he'll burn out. He's, he's young. I think he's like 23, 24, so he knows when he's at his peak.

Chris Williamson 14:09 Okay, made of rubber and magic.

Mike Thurston 14:10 You've got that energy to do it-

Chris Williamson 14:10 Do you remember being 23 or 24? (laughs)

Mike Thurston 14:12 Yeah. It was fucking full of energy. (laughs) That's why I'm noticing that. I'm like, I'm gonna be 33 this year, and I'm noticing like, "Fuck, I'm tired." (laughs) And the worst thing is, like Hormozi said it, it's like, "This is the most energetic you are going to be."

Chris Williamson 14:28 It's downhill from here, yeah.

Mike Thurston 14:29 It's, it's gonna... (laughs) And I'm like, "Oh..."

Chris Williamson 14:31 Yeah. Well, Jesse's, Jesse's a very interesting one, I think, because it's the skit style of video without the cringe and the cheese.

Mike Thurston 14:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:43 Uh, the one, there was one that he did with Ronnie Coleman and Jay Cutler that I, to me, pushed the limit on the upper bound. I was like, "If this goes much more, it's gonna be a little bit like, oh."

Mike Thurston 14:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:53 Uh, but s- the one that he did where he pretended to be Chris Bumstead. For the people that don't know who we're talking about, Jesse James, fitness YouTuber, um, very charismatic guy, young dude from America. And he does-

Mike Thurston 15:04 He's got two and a half million subs now, I think.

Chris Williamson 15:06 And he hasn't been going that long.

Mike Thurston 15:08 No, he's...

Chris Williamson 15:08 And he's absolutely flying.

Mike Thurston 15:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:09 But that's, that's the, you know, it's evident that he's got... I don't know whether he's faking it.

Mike Thurston 15:13 No, he, he is... Well, first of all, he is big ball of energy.

Chris Williamson 15:16 Yep.

Mike Thurston 15:17 Insane amount of energy. I think very extroverted.

Chris Williamson 15:21 Yep.

Mike Thurston 15:21 He has absolutely no fear going up to people, which was very interesting to watch as well. And he's just, he's just a hard worker. Always working. Like, you can tell-

Chris Williamson 15:32 But you-

Mike Thurston 15:32 ... there's always a million things going on in his head.

Chris Williamson 15:33 You'd be concerned about his ability to keep up that work rate?

Mike Thurston 15:39 Yeah. I don't think... 'Cause it, like, m- it just gets to a point, I think, with n- Unless you really, really, really love something, most of the time, you're kinda like, "Oh yeah, this is getting a bit repetitive now." Like, it's not necessarily sustainable.

Chris Williamson 15:53 Is his work rate effortful? I haven't... I've, I've-

Mike Thurston 15:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:56 ... Zach said it looks like a, a massive ri- reality distortion field moving through a, an expo, but it's a lot of work.

Mike Thurston 16:01 It just, it's, it's like flying around, constantly planning, constantly just being in front of the camera. Like, I can, um, only imagine how many, how much actually doesn't even get put into the video.

Chris Williamson 16:10 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 16:10 Like, you only see the best of the best. You don't see like all the, the outtakes.

Chris Williamson 16:15 Well, that's another reason why the vlog format is just so impractical, right?

Mike Thurston 16:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:21 You know, you wanna film a vlog about your... I remember you, you did some stuff about... You got a, a nice new car and you wanted, like, to let people know about the car that you'd got.

Mike Thurston 16:28 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:29 It took like two days.

Mike Thurston 16:30 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:31 So we had to make-

Mike Thurston 16:31 Yeah, we had to-

Chris Williamson 16:32 ... a 16-minute fucking video.

Mike Thurston 16:33 Yeah, lo- losing. We had to drive all the way to the desert, which is like an hour away. Then we had to drive up and down this track with another car filming. So, we're probably filming that little 20-second edit for like an hour.

Chris Williamson 16:45 Yep.

Mike Thurston 16:45 And then I remember-

Chris Williamson 16:46 That's a podcast.

Mike Thurston 16:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:47 You would've had a podcast done in that time.

Mike Thurston 16:48 And I, and then I remember driving somewhere else just to do like a talking part, which I kept fucking up. And then I was just like, "Wow, this is two or three days work."

Chris Williamson 16:55 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 16:55 And now I'm noticing it's like, it's not practical. I do like the vlogs and I still think it's a big part of my channel.

Chris Williamson 17:01 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 17:02 But I think now I only want to make a vlog if s- something really cool is happening.

Chris Williamson 17:06 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 17:06 Either I'm meeting up with someone very interesting or I'm going somewhere really cool. The travel vlogs are wicked because it's like documenting myself going on holiday.

Chris Williamson 17:15 Yes.

Mike Thurston 17:15 And then I'm also sharing the place with people.

Chris Williamson 17:20 I did a... The reason I'm here in Dubai is because I just did a debate in Qatar about-

Mike Thurston 17:23 I saw that.

Chris Williamson 17:24 ... uh, is masculinity under attack? And, um, it's the first time that I've done anything remotely close to TV, uh, for quite a long time. You know, I got familiar with it, with the dating stuff, Take Me Out, Love Island, and then other bits of produced documentaries. But especially after having spent so much time doing this, where if you forget, you forgot the guy's name that puts the thing around his arm.

Mike Thurston 17:46 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:47 Uh, if that happens on TV, that's a cut, right? Let's research it, shout it out, uh, and then we'll run it again from the top. Can you just say, "Mike, could you just run that again for us, please?" It's like, whereas it's-

Mike Thurston 17:58 That's weird. So there's no flow. It's like-

Chris Williamson 17:59 No, no, no, not at all. No, of course not, because they, they, they've got 45 minutes. They've got ad breaks to go in between all the rest of the stuff, or they're trying to sell it to Netflix, or they're trying to do whatever. And the thing that we did was like incredibly well-produced, massive team, 200 to 150 people on site to do this thing. Unbelievable production. But even with that, you know, there's, there's things that the host that was mediating the debate needs to do. And for me, it just feels-... uh, experientially so much more, like, stop-starty. You know, w- we, the guy that I was debating, me and him weren't supposed to speak to each other before, like, when we were backstage. Whereas if y- even if you were sitting down to have a conversation with someone that you disagreed with, you'd welcome them at the door, give them a glass of water, say, "Oh, r- right, okay. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Three, two, one, welcome to the show." And you'd just crack on. Um-

Mike Thurston 18:46 That's why I don't like TV anymore. It seems so fake and staged. Doesn't seem real.

Chris Williamson 18:50 It's so trite to say, like, ev- you know, Rogan and all of those guys have been going on, going on about it for ages. But look at what Jesse James does, right?

Mike Thurston 18:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:59 His content is heavily staged, but it's done in a way that almost draws you in.

Mike Thurston 19:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:07 Right? It's quite likable, it's quite enjoyable. And yeah, I- I'm just fascinated, um, about what's happened with especially, like, the vlogging world. I think the rise of podcasts has trickled down, you know, you being able to do Q&As, you being able to do direct-to-camera things.

Mike Thurston 19:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:20 But if someone was starting up a channel now, we were talking about this earlier on, what advice would you say? If someone's listening and they go, "I fancy making a YouTube channel, I'm prepared to sell my soul to the devil. I have absolute- I'll go as low as I need to, I'll p- play any role that I need to." How would you, from first principles, just say, "This is how to get to a million subs as quickly as possible if you're prepared to sell your soul"?

Mike Thurston 19:42 Yeah, if you wanted to, with the absolute minimal work required, you can just pick up other people's content, viral content, and just react to it, and have some sort of animated reaction which will provide people some form of entertainment. And you're just kind of piggybacking off other people's amazing work. Which is kind of, like, quite questionable, but if you want to grow very quickly, that's one way to do it. Another way, it depends how, how s- knowledgeable you are as a person. Like, if you have a v- not a lot of knowledge to spread, and you're very good at communicating and can present yourself well, all you have to do is just sit down and talk. Make it, you know, a little bit entertaining, have an editor put some cool edits on it, and then you can just bang out videos non-stop.

Chris Williamson 20:28 That makes it sound very easy.

Mike Thurston 20:31 Yeah, I guess it's a little bit harder than that, but it's-

Chris Williamson 20:33 But is, in a way, it's... I'm trying to work out, you know, given the fact that I- I think that you're not far off. I don't disagree.

Mike Thurston 20:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 20:41 Uh, I'm just trying to work out where it is that people get stuck.

Mike Thurston 20:44 They don't have a skill set. They don't have any value to offer, I think.

Chris Williamson 20:48 Oh, so they don't have any expertise-

Mike Thurston 20:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:49 ... that they can actually talk on? Yeah, well, I mean, w- I was having a discussion-

Mike Thurston 20:52 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 20:53 ... with a friend about this today about, um... A- Aubrey Marcus, uh, CEO of On Nit, founder of On Nit, now sold it, um, told me this thing a few years ago. He said that you don't serve people from your cup. You serve them from the saucer that overflows around your cup. And he's saying it in classic Austin psychedelic-

Mike Thurston 21:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:10 ... f- fashion, right? But what he actually means is sort your shit first. Right? You need to make sure that you are sufficiently capable to do the you thing-

Mike Thurston 21:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:20 ... before you then try and proselytize to the world about how they should be doing it, or how you did it, and they can do it-

Mike Thurston 21:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:27 ... how you did it and stuff. Which is why I think if you look at almost all of the podcasts that are doing very well, you know, you're talking, like, Rogan, 50s, Huberman, 40s, like, Tim Dillon, 30s-

Mike Thurston 21:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:40 ... Chris D'Elia, late 30s, 40s. Like, all of these, you know, whether it's comedy, whether it's... Whatever. Pick, pick your big-name-

Mike Thurston 21:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:47 ... podcast. Tim Ferriss, 40s. Like, these guys are older. Well, hang on. If you go to other social media, they're not the ones that crush on Instagram or TikTok or whatever, unless it's repurposing content-

Mike Thurston 21:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:59 ... from a different platform. And I think that the reason for that is... And it's a very good change. We can, like, complain about... And I do, I'm, like, rail against TikTok and short form, and it's killing people's brains and blah, blah. But certainly, one of the good things is that people who have genuine expertise and who don't have been thrown into harsh light by long-form conversations.

Mike Thurston 22:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:19 Because if you-

Mike Thurston 22:20 That's a good thing.

Chris Williamson 22:21 ... s- sit someone down-

Mike Thurston 22:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:22 ... for an hour and a half, and you go, "Oh, there's nothing there."

Mike Thurston 22:25 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:25 "There's absolutely nothing there. There's nowhere to hide in-

Mike Thurston 22:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:27 ... these conversations."

Mike Thurston 22:28 Yeah. And I think the older you get, y- the wiser you are and the more life experience you have. It's quite hard for you to sit there and listen to a 22-year-old tell you how you should live your life. Particularly if you're, like, over 30. Even though they might actually know how to live life (laughs) better than you do. Guys, a l- a lot of guys are just, they'll be too stubborn, they'll be like, "Nah, I'd rather (laughs) listen to someone who's the same age as me or a little bit older." It's one of the reasons why I held off from this podcast for a bit, 'cause I remember w- when we did ours, I was like, "Man, like, that was amazing. Like, I think I want to do my own." And then I was like, "Nah, not yet."

Chris Williamson 23:06 Haven't got the expertise. Which is crazy, right? For people to look at, um-

Mike Thurston 23:09 I think I just needed, I needed two more years of living life.

Chris Williamson 23:11 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 23:12 And I certainly did that.

Chris Williamson 23:14 What's your views on why men are feeling sort of quite lost at the moment? 'Cause me and you went to uni at basically the same time. I think we're one or two years-

Mike Thurston 23:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:22 ... age difference. We did the same course at Newcastle. We trained at the Center for Sporting Excellence-

Mike Thurston 23:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:27 ... right, the CSE together, which would have been your first major, like, consistent gym, I'm gonna guess?

Mike Thurston 23:30 Yeah, yeah. That's when I would do my bro split for the first time. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:33 (laughs) Damn right. Um, so we would have been walking through Richardson Road, halls of residence in... Where did you live? Where were you in first year?

Mike Thurston 23:40 Castle Leazes.

Chris Williamson 23:41 Wait, are you posh twat?

Mike Thurston 23:43 No, yeah, but this is the thing. I didn't kno- I didn't... I don't know why I picked it, but I picked it, and then I realized I was, like, the only northerner there.

Chris Williamson 23:52 Correct, yeah. So for the people that-

Mike Thurston 23:53 Just the full surface of there.

Chris Williamson 23:53 For the people that don't know, Newcastle University, northeast of the UK.

Mike Thurston 23:56 Should have been in Richardson Road.

Chris Williamson 23:57 Should have been in Ric- Rickey Road. Um, I was in St. Mary's in Fenham because I put it as my insurance-

Mike Thurston 24:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:01 ... and they make you pay. Uh, you were in with all of the posh boys.

Mike Thurston 24:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 24:04 My point being, when we went to university, when we were the age of a lot of the guys that are seeking advice online at the moment...

Mike Thurston 24:11 There was, there was nothing online.

Chris Williamson 24:13 But I don't think that there was a sense of being lost-

Mike Thurston 24:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:16 ... despite the fact that there was less information out there.

Mike Thurston 24:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:19 I don't think that... And, and that's not to say that me and you tumbled into some, like, perfect, slick archetype of being-

Mike Thurston 24:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:28 ... of finding our place within university or whatever.

Mike Thurston 24:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:31 I think both of us in, like-... like, certain ways were a little bit disjointed and took time to find our feet.

Mike Thurston 24:36 Yeah. I don't (sighs) I-

Chris Williamson 24:38 What do you think's changed? Why is it that guys are-

Mike Thurston 24:40 I think it's maybe the comparison aspect of it. Because I definitely didn't have a clue what I was doing. And I think it was only until I was 23, y- yeah, 23 when I became a personal trainer, I was like, "Okay. So, this is probably a step in the right direction." Before that, I was working as a manager in Hollister, worked as-

Chris Williamson 24:56 I remember.

Mike Thurston 24:56 ... a club pr- club promoter for a bit, doing all sorts. But I never felt lost. I was just like, "Okay. Well, yeah, I'll just, I'll just do this." But I had, I had no one else to compare myself to. Like, I wasn't comparing myself to any other 22 or 23-year-old out there. In fact, I thought I was doing pretty good, because I was like, "Hey, I've come out of university and I've got a job." Whereas now, you've got people who are like 16, 20, 21, 22, who are just making a killing. And I think because they're so out there on social media, and they have gained quite a lot of following because of the success they've had, I think a lot of guys maybe that age or even a little bit older, they're like, "Hang on. How has this guy managed to make so much money and so successful? I am literally (laughs) doing nothing with my life."

Chris Williamson 25:43 Comparatively.

Mike Thurston 25:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:44 Even if you are on a graduate scheme at Hollister.

Mike Thurston 25:47 Yeah. I think that's one thing. And then maybe the value of a degree has massively gone downhill now. I don't think people are thinking, "Oh. Should I go to university anymore? Is it worth it?" Like, "Do I need to go? Do I not need to go?" Like, "What should I spend my time learning?" I think it can be quite confusing out there.

Chris Williamson 26:05 All of my richest friends don't use their degrees.

Mike Thurston 26:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:08 I don't use my degree.

Mike Thurston 26:09 I know, I know.

Chris Williamson 26:09 You don't. George, the guy that I was at, at his house before, unbelievably successful marketing business.

Mike Thurston 26:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:14 Did philosophy at uni, can't remember any of it. Like, I, I, I think that all of that's very correct. There's a, a quote that says, "Comparison is the thief of joy."

Mike Thurston 26:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:23 And maybe that, maybe that contributes to a big part of it, the fact that just your ability to see naught point, naught, naught, naught, 1% success, absolute outliers, crushing, at a younger age than you. Uh, so I went to the UFC's Power Slap event-

Mike Thurston 26:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:44 ... in Vegas last Saturday (laughs) , which was fucking wild. And I saw Adin Ross, one of the biggest streamers in the world.

Mike Thurston 26:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:52 I saw all of the Nelk boys, Kyle, uh, Mike from, uh, Impulsive, Hasbulla was there, Dan Bilzerian was there. Like just bing, bing, bing, like tick. Pick your-

Mike Thurston 27:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:03 Steve will do it, like everybody, right? All of the, the biggest guys that would've been around that, that sort of community. And you look, I mean, Adin Ross, I think he's maybe 20, 20, 21?

Mike Thurston 27:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:15 He's one of the biggest streamers in the world. Um, like IShowSpeed is something similar, maybe even younger, maybe he's 19?

Mike Thurston 27:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:23 Uh, Kyle and all of the Nelk boys are maybe getting toward their mid-20s, mid-to-late 20s, but they've got, uh, like businesses-

Mike Thurston 27:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:30 ... and franchises and clothing companies and all this stuff.

Mike Thurston 27:35 I guess a lot of guys are just thinking, "Oh. Well, maybe I need to take the influencer route," and that's why they're so confused.

Chris Williamson 27:43 Yeah, perhaps. And what about, is there something else going on about some- about men's roles, do you think, like young guys' roles in, in the world? Is something being lost there?

Mike Thurston 27:53 (inhales deeply) I guess so. I mean, I'm not massively clear on what it was to begin with. What, what, what did it use to be young men's roles?

Chris Williamson 28:02 I don't, well, this is the point-

Mike Thurston 28:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:03 ... when me and you were at uni, I was also useless.

Mike Thurston 28:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:06 I had no idea. I didn't know what I was supposed to do. But it, that didn't feel like a pressure to know what I was supposed to do.

Mike Thurston 28:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:12 So, e- e- every generation looks back at the generation coming after them and can't believe how quickly they're growing up.

Mike Thurston 28:20 Yeah. I'm pretty glad I'm not a part of this younger generation. I feel like we had it pretty sweet.

Chris Williamson 28:25 Why?

Mike Thurston 28:26 (inhales deeply) Just felt like a simpler time. Growing up, first of all, without social media, I think maybe when I got onto Facebook, that was probably when I was at university, just before university, when I was 17.

Chris Williamson 28:38 You needed a uni email address when we weren't-

Mike Thurston 28:41 Yeah. So it was nice just to have my teen- teenage years without all the social media. We just even weren't on phones.

Chris Williamson 28:48 It wasn't even BBM.

Mike Thurston 28:49 I think I had like a-

Chris Williamson 28:50 I had a Nokia.

Mike Thurston 28:51 Yeah. I had like a Sony Ericsson, a Nokia. I just, I feel like, though, I spent a lot more time being present. And then, um, yeah, the world's a bit mad now (laughs) , like really mad with all the woke stuff and, I don't know.

Chris Williamson 29:10 Well, one of the problems that you have is everybody always presumes that giving more freedom to people will allow them to more accurately choose the precise thing that they want.

Mike Thurston 29:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:21 Right? If you, if there's one pair of jeans in the store and you go in, then maybe you wanted a different pair, but you only get that one. If there's a thousand pairs of jeans in the store, fantastic. You can optimize your choice precisely for the exact type of jeans, the cut, the color, the length, the stretch, the whatever, right? Waist, everything.

Mike Thurston 29:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:38 The problem is that takes the decision of, uh, of the, uh, outcome of success or failure out of the hands of your limited choices and more into your hands. You know, you can see how this would be an issue, right?

Mike Thurston 29:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:51 If you choose an ever so slightly suboptimal pair of jeans, that's your fault, because there was an optimal pair of jeans for you to take. And I think that the same thing happens here, that if the rules and guidelines, um, that people previously would have followed have perhaps been removed a little bit, and if expectations have been raised, you should be doing more at this age, you're able to compare yourself, so on and so forth, that's a really perfect blend-

Mike Thurston 30:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:18 ... of, um, internal uncertainty and external pressure that can cause someone to think, "Holy fuck. I, I don't know what I'm supposed to do with my life. I don't know all of the things previously, the traits that I would have taken pride in, the, uh, you know, the protector, provider, competent, courageous, brave, stands up well under pressure, doesn't give up easily, emotionally mature, all of those things that"... specifically men, would have relied on, it- that's only one step away from toxic masculinity.

Mike Thurston 30:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:47 Right? All of those can very easily be, "Oh, protecting. Why is it that you think that women need to be protected? Should it not be the case that women can be safe without the protection of men? What is it that you're intending on doing with them?" Or provider. "You think that women can't afford to look after themselves. You want women back in the kitchen, do you? You don't want them to have careers." You're like, "Holy fuck. Like, can we not turn the volume of this conversation down?"

Mike Thurston 31:07 Yeah, 'cause you must have had a lot of these conversations with the interviews you've done. Do you fi- do you think it's, uh, the dating s- market at the moment is the worst it's ever been?

Chris Williamson 31:18 It's a really good question. Um, I certainly think that it's the most confusing, and the outcomes seem to have the highest rates of sexlessness that we've ever seen.

Mike Thurston 31:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:26 So 30% of men-ish, around about a third of men, haven't had sex in the last year, aged 18 to 30. This stat that just came out from Pew a couple of weeks ago, 50% of men say that they're pursuing a relationship short-term or long-term. Which means that 50% of men aren't, aged 18 to 30. Now, both me and you, and everybody that's listening that has a penis, who's been through the ages of 18 to 30, knows what the male sex drive feels like at that age.

Mike Thurston 31:51 Oh.

Chris Williamson 31:51 Can you imagine what it, what the world has to be like, and what your experience of life has to be like, for your sex drive to be chopped in half, essentially, right?

Mike Thurston 32:01 It would drive you mad.

Chris Williamson 32:02 Yeah. But- but these guys are self-identifying as saying, "I'm not bothered about a short-term or a long-term relationship." Like, for you to get yourself to the stage where you've tamped down on that sex drive, and there's talk of, like, reducing levels of testosterone, phthalates in the water, increasing levels of estrogen in everything that we eat, less time outside, blah, blah, blah. Like, people know that. Uh, testosterone's dropped 1% a year since 1980. Um, so that may contribute to it too. But in 2019, it was 61% of guys were short-term and long-term, looking for the short-term, long-term mating thing, and that's dropped 11% in four years. It's like rapid decline. So I certainly do think that the-

Mike Thurston 32:40 But what are these guys doing? Are they just focusing on their own shit?

Chris Williamson 32:45 That's a really good question.

Mike Thurston 32:47 Or are they just like, or are they just not-

Chris Williamson 32:48 That's a really good question. I don't know. I think that a lot of guys are retreating from the real world.

Mike Thurston 32:53 They're all going, they're all going monk mode now. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:54 But, uh, if they were, if it was proper monk mode, where it's, "I'm working on my self-development, I'm building myself up," that would indicate that they're taking a break to then come back in-

Mike Thurston 33:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:06 ... to integrate into both society and dating. But I think that a lot of these guys are just fully checked out, even at younger ages, you know, like under 20, like guys that are under 20 going, men going their own way. It's like, "Dude, like you haven't had a chance to not go your own way."

Mike Thurston 33:19 I'm trying to think. If I was 18 year old, if I was 18 now, it would be a lot harder compared to when I was 18, you know, like-

Chris Williamson 33:29 Harder to do what?

Mike Thurston 33:31 I don't know, just date. I think now, because of social media, it's obviously way more competitive, and I just think a lot of women who are, let's say when I was 18, they're 18, they're probably not going to be looking for an 18-year-old to date. They'll be looking for older guys to date.

Chris Williamson 33:47 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 33:48 But I feel like that wasn't as much of a thing back then.

Chris Williamson 33:50 Absolutely not, no. The- the- the amount of people that you had access to would've been limited.

Mike Thurston 33:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:55 But the-

Chris Williamson 33:56 the, you know, coming out the back at this conversation I had, uh, yesterday at this debate in Doha, it was all about masculinity, masculinity being under attack, and I think that this is a concern for women as well, like a massive concern. So I found, I found this really, really, like, interesting story about the, uh, Batman Dark Knight Rises, uh, movie premiere. So it was 2012 in Aurora, Colorado, and there was a- a shooting that happened there. The shooter was a lone man, I think he was 27 years old, so he enters the movie theater and he starts unloading rounds, just kind of at will. And three men, 24, 26, and 27, threw themselves on top of their girlfriends to use their bodies as shields. All three men died. All three women survived.

Mike Thurston 34:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:42 If that is the kind of masculinity that you want to get rid of in the modern world, if that's the one that is toxic and, uh, part of a oppressive patriarchal super structure that's misogynistically keeping everybody down, and you want to get rid of that, we don't live on the same planet.

Mike Thurston 34:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:58 Like, there is no world in which that is the sort of benevolent force for good, where somebody sacrifices themselves for someone that they love, that you want to get rid of. Like, how can you tell me that that's something-

Mike Thurston 35:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:11 ... that's a good way, that- that we should get rid of that in-built, uh, uh, desire to protect? And here's the thing. You could say that it's chivalry or it's cultured or it's societally programmed. You're telling me that these guys, after bullets are flying, have thought to themselves, "Hmm, like what's the, like, uh, proper thing to do and what would society want me to do?" And from first principles, they've created a world where they go, "Oh, yes, I should throw myself on top." No, it's a- an instinct that's deeper and more- more in-built than that. And I'm just, I'm really, uh, genuinely becoming concerned about this retreat from society that men are suffering with. And I couldn't agree more, man. Like, I'm-

Mike Thurston 35:59 D- do you think men are, uh, the- they're fighting back a bit now thanks to Andrew Tate? There's more people bringing out more masculine content, standing up for masculinity.

Chris Williamson 36:10 Yes, I think the best-

Mike Thurston 36:12 Maybe not in the mainstream media, but I feel like on social media there's more of it.

Chris Williamson 36:17 I would agree. Uh, I certainly think that Tate's got an exaggerated view of masculinity.

Mike Thurston 36:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:22 And I think that Shapiro hits the nail on the head, which is that Tate is almost always right about the diagnosis, but significantly less right about the prescription to fix it.

Mike Thurston 36:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:35 That he is able to point out the problems, but his solutions, much of the time, aren't going to be quite as effective.

Mike Thurston 36:42 Yeah, I think the delivery needed work as well.

Chris Williamson 36:44 Yeah. So there's a- a concept I've come up with called the soft signal of effectiveness, and what this means is that, um, if you are having a discussion with somebody that disagrees with you or that maybe just hasn't made their mind up-You have to realize if you make them feel silly or foolish or ridiculous, that they're going to dig their heels into their position. You don't, nobody has ever been patronized or ridiculed into changing their mind, because it just creates this defense to happen, and this is why, like, I'm nowhere near red-pilled enough for most of the manosphere, but I'm significantly far too red-pilled for almost all of the people that are on the more woke-y side of things. Um, but I genuinely believe that that's the most effective way to change minds. Like, if you make people s- feel silly, they're gonna dig their heels in-

Mike Thurston 37:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:31 ... and I think that that's one of the challenges that, that Andrew comes up against. Now, it garners an awful lot of views, which is great, and it, it is good for getting a message out there. But in terms of changing behavior effectively, I'm not too sure.

Mike Thurston 37:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:42 Obviously, you, you had, how many plays has that video got?

Mike Thurston 37:46 That's nearly six million views now.

Chris Williamson 37:47 Is that your most-played video?

Mike Thurston 37:48 No, it'd be like this, I think it's like the third most played.

Chris Williamson 37:51 Right.

Mike Thurston 37:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:51 So it's like climbing up to the top there. Yeah, and you did that-

Mike Thurston 37:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:53 ... kind of a little bit before his-

Mike Thurston 37:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:56 ... super explosion. So talk me through, you know, we've been talking so far

Chris Williamson 38:00 about the challenges that men face in the modern world.

Mike Thurston 38:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:03 Problems of masculinity. You've spent a good bit of time with Tate. What were your thoughts after having spent time with him? How do you think he's contributing to the conversation on masculinity? Where's he failing and falling short?

Mike Thurston 38:16 I think th- the problem was all the short-form content that was getting put out there, obviously it was just, like, the most extreme, out-of-context clips, mostly from some of his old videos. So when he, when he started off, he's been doing content for a long time. His older videos are just wild. Like he's just saying some mad shit. But he can do because nobody's even watching, right? So there's, when not many people are watching your videos, you can get away with saying a lot more. As he became drastically popular, obviously people were going back to the old videos and were like, "What the hell?" They were using that content and it was just going crazy. I, when I first came across him, he actually DMed me. This, this was in 2021. And, um, I went on his Instagram and I went through a few pictures and I just thought, "Who is this guy?" Like, it seemed like he was, um, trying to show off a little bit too much. And I thought it was all just a front. You know how a lot of people out here are just fake?

Chris Williamson 39:19 Renti- renting cars.

Mike Thurston 39:19 They're just trying to, ren- renting cars.

Chris Williamson 39:21 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 39:21 Trying to show, "Hey, I've got money." That's what I thought when I saw him. I was like, "This guy's just chatting shit." But then I did a little bit of research and I listened to some of the podcasts. I think the first one he went on that I listened to was Fresh & Fit, and then that was the first time I- I'd- I'd actually listened to someone, I was like, "Whoa, like this guy, this guy is speaking in a way that I've never heard anyone speak before. And he's saying things which I haven't really heard anyone say before." So I was intrigued and I wanted to listen to more, and then I was like, "Actually, do you know what? I want to meet this guy." So he came to Dubai, we linked up, we did the videos, it was just after-

Chris Williamson 39:51 Did he come up especially to see you?

Mike Thurston 39:53 I think he, I mean, he's always, he's always do- doing business wherever he goes. But I guess maybe that was part of the plan at that point, he just wanted to, 'cause he saw, he must have seen me, probably thought, "Oh yeah, Mike seems like a cool guy," but he saw the audience.

Chris Williamson 40:05 How wrong he was.

Mike Thurston 40:06 And it was, and... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:08 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 40:08 And then he probably thinks, "You know what?" Like, he was obviously on a mission to-

Chris Williamson 40:10 Grow.

Mike Thurston 40:11 ... get more followers so he can-

Chris Williamson 40:12 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 40:13 ... push whatever he needs to push. So he, he probably would have seen me, "Okay, yeah, I'll do a video with Mike and then that can help me out with my branding and exposure." Obviously that worked very well. But, um, yeah, I met him in real life and he's, he's actually an even better guy. I know a lot of people don't like him. But he, in real life, he's, like, a nice guy. Polite. He's actually funny. And, um, I think that's a side which a lot of people don't see because they, he definitely does put on some kind of a character, especially in the videos which he makes himself. And he says things that I'm just like, "Ugh." Like, "Why do you say that?" It's like s- 70% of the stuff he says, he's like, "Yeah, like, I strongly agree with that." And then he will go and say something absolutely ridiculous where it's just like, "Why did you need to say that?"

Chris Williamson 41:01 Because that's the 30% that people are going to focus on.

Mike Thurston 41:03 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:04 Yeah, I think, a- again, this didn't quite come up yesterday, it came up with, uh, Jordan Peterson as the example. But I said something to the effect of, um, if you're not happy with the role models that are currently being held up for men, offer up other ones.

Mike Thurston 41:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:21 And I asked the guy that was across from me, the debater, "Who do you think is a good role model for men?" And he struggled a little bit.

Mike Thurston 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:32 Uh, he struggled a lot actually.

Mike Thurston 41:34 It's hard to find someone who's the full package, I think.

Chris Williamson 41:35 Correct. But I was, I was able to say, "Well look, like, it's not perfect, but I would say that the kind of man that Peterson would tell you to be, your Andrew Hubermans of the world, your Tim Ferrisses of the world, your Joe Rogans of the world, your Jocko Willinks. Like, these are people that seem to have codes of honor and ethics, they do hard things, they're courageous and brave. Like, you know?"

Mike Thurston 41:56 They don't get into drama.

Chris Williamson 41:57 They don't get into drama.

Mike Thurston 41:58 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 41:59 Mike, I should have just said Mike Thurston.

Mike Thurston 42:00 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 42:00 Um, but I-

Mike Thurston 42:03 It's, it's weird that more people don't want, more men don't want to be like those guys.

Chris Williamson 42:08 Yeah. Well, I don't know. Maybe they do. Maybe they do, it's just that they're not selling that kind of sexy...

Mike Thurston 42:15 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:16 ... out there lifestyle, because it doesn't necessarily resonate. Like, it's hard, it's- it's hard, difficult, nuanced, suffering things.

Mike Thurston 42:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:25 I mean, Homosy, man. I spent, I spent a s- Saturday with him last week in, in Vegas. Podcasted, trained, and, uh, went to the Power Slap launch thing with him. And the guy's an unbelievably slick operator. He's one of the most impressive-

Mike Thurston 42:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:42 ... people that I've worked with.

Mike Thurston 42:43 I've really been getting into his content recently.

Chris Williamson 42:45 He's a terrifyingly competent human, right?

Mike Thurston 42:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:48 But I don't even know if he owns a car. Oh, he does, he owns, he, they maybe have like a, a car, but it's like a Tes- like a nice Tesla.

Mike Thurston 42:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:54 Right? Guy sold his business for 100 mil.

Mike Thurston 42:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:57 He's now doing acquisition deals for-... fucking lots and lots of money. So, the, a- and this kind of maybe explains a little bit of, of the Tate phenomenon, which was that his delivery was so compelling, because say what you want about what he says, the way that he says it is incredibly interesting, and it's very, very, very compelling, very precise speaker, good with his words. You know, to go head-to-head with Piers Morgan, Piers Morgan is as hard-nosed as you're going to get, very, very good in a, a cantankerous debate, and he charmed Piers Morgan twice and beat him at chess.

Mike Thurston 43:30 (laughs) Oh.

Chris Williamson 43:31 Right? He's a very competent guy.

Mike Thurston 43:33 He gets, like, I'll be honest. When I, this was last summer, I was listening to a lot of his podcasts, and he was getting me fired up to work. The stuff he says about women, I just, I usually will just ignore. But when he talks about just doing the job regardless of how you feel, just get the job done, wake up early, go to the gym, and the fact that there's just so many other people out there that are your potential competitors.

Chris Williamson 44:00 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 44:00 If you don't get out there and put the work in, then they're gonna overtake you.

Chris Williamson 44:03 But remember that that is David Goggins and Jocko Willink's message.

Mike Thurston 44:07 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:07 ... to a T, with different delivery-

Mike Thurston 44:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:09 ... and with a different package that it's being folded into.

Mike Thurston 44:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:12 So yeah, I think, and this was the point that I made, if you leave a vacuum for role models, and I think the same

Chris Williamson 44:17 is coming for women, you know, for the girls that have been, uh, left out of this conversation so far, I think that there is a, burbling below the surface, I think that there is a concern, a big concern for role models for girls as well.

Mike Thurston 44:30 Yeah, this is, this is a, this is a problem. This, 'cause I'm actually trying to find some really good female role models for the podcast.

Chris Williamson 44:38 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 44:38 And it's quite hard to do that out here.

Chris Williamson 44:43 Yeah, I wonder-

Mike Thurston 44:43 The-

Chris Williamson 44:43 ... 'cause we were talking about this before.

Mike Thurston 44:45 I w- I, I don't know, 'cause there, there is a lot of successful, smart women, but they don't wanna raise their voice. They don't want to be on the camera. They don't wanna-

Chris Williamson 44:57 Why do you think that is?

Mike Thurston 44:58 I don't know. This is what I'm trying to figure out.

Chris Williamson 45:01 You've, you've reached out to them and suggested things?

Mike Thurston 45:02 I've r- I've reached out to a few. I have, I have friends, um, got a big following, very smart, very intelligent, and they're just like-

Chris Williamson 45:11 Don't want to do it?

Mike Thurston 45:11 ... they're avoiding it. And I'm like, "I am literally giving you an opportunity to be the voice of women-

Chris Williamson 45:17 Yep.

Mike Thurston 45:17 ... and to be a role model to all the women out there-

Chris Williamson 45:20 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 45:21 ... that they need. Why, why are you not doing it?"

Chris Williamson 45:25 (smacks lips) That's very interesting. So, uh, let me put my evolutionary psychologist hat on for a second. Um-

Mike Thurston 45:30 I w- I would say, first of all, maybe it's the, uh, they're probably a lot more bothered about how they look on camera. So they would probably want everything to be perfect.

Chris Williamson 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 45:39 And women have bad days and they'll be like, "Oh, oh, my hair is messed up today, so maybe I'm, I'm not gonna film." Or like, "Oh, I don't like the angle the camera is facing on my face."

Chris Williamson 45:51 Interesting.

Mike Thurston 45:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:52 Yeah, I mean, it takes a very particular type of woman to decide to put herself out there as a spokesperson. Um, so th- this, uh, evolutionary psychology bias that it seems that women have, they, they try and flatten hierarchies. So, a bunch of studies show that if females, especially girls in school, know that their grades are going to be made public, they're going to downplay what they got. So if guys get an A, if me and you were in uni-

Mike Thurston 46:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:20 ... and we walked out of some accounting exam in the CSE or, like, Henderson Hall or wherever the, our exam was-

Mike Thurston 46:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:26 ... we would walk outside, or let's say that we got, it was a multiple choice and we got the results there and then, and I got an A and you got a B, I'd stick it in your face.

Mike Thurston 46:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:33 But the evidence suggests that girls will very much try and downplay that.

Mike Thurston 46:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:37 Another really-

Mike Thurston 46:39 It's like their ba- body count as well. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:42 (laughs) Perhaps. I don't think those two things are actually linked, but yeah, perhaps. Um, but the reason that it seems to be the case with that is that, um, jealousy is a massive risk to women.

Mike Thurston 46:54 They're very competitive with each other.

Chris Williamson 46:56 But they're competitive in a much more subtle and nuanced way. They don't get, they're not competitive, uh, outwardly, right?

Mike Thurston 47:02 Yeah, in, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:03 They're competitive in a, a much more, uh, it's m- more complex and you could maybe say more devious. They're certainly much more-

Mike Thurston 47:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:10 ... complex social beings.

Mike Thurston 47:10 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:11 Women's-

Mike Thurston 47:11 That ma- it makes sense. I feel like what I've, what I've noticed recently is, especially out here, at least with the guys, I feel like all the guys are out here supporting each other and helping each other level, level up.

Chris Williamson 47:23 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 47:23 But the women are like, they're out to, they wanna be the best.

Chris Williamson 47:28 Yeah. They, I mean, it's-

Mike Thurston 47:28 And they're not helping each other.

Chris Williamson 47:30 Dude, it's, it's really, this is the thing, and y- guys can say, "Women have got it easy. They're outperforming us in education and employment and blah, blah, blah." Women are having a really fucking rough time of it. Like no one is, no one is flourishing at the moment. There's maybe some guys at the top and some girls at the absolute top that are having a great time of it on average at the moment, that's not to say that individuals can't have, like, an enjoyable life.

Mike Thurston 47:51 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:52 But like, it's really tough for girls at the moment. Okay, so there is this ever-dwindling pool of guys that are eligible for you. You have more opportunities than ever before. Society says that you shouldn't become a mother. You maybe want to have a career, but also like to have the idea to have a family, but if you have a family-

Mike Thurston 48:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:06 ... you're treated like a second-class citizen that's been conned by the patriarchy into becoming a domestic prostitute. Like, it's really not-

Mike Thurston 48:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:13 ... it's really, really complex for them too.

Mike Thurston 48:15 If, if I was a woman, I, I, I really wouldn't know what to do.

Chris Williamson 48:18 No. No, me neither. And given the fact that we spent the first half of this conversation talking about how difficult it is for men, and I think that it's maybe, i- it's at least equal in terms of how lost the roles are-

Mike Thurston 48:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:31 ... for women going forward. The one difference, and I think that this is quite a big difference and quite an important one, is that men are still having the finger pointed at them and being told that they're the architects of their own misery, and also the architects of everybody else's as well. Like if there's ev- ever a problem with any group, usually, we would say, "Okay, what's going on? How can we try and change the world or society so that we can help this group flourish?" Right? There's not enough women going to university in 1970, so we introduce Title IX for affirmative action and it encourages women to go. Now-... the gender split between men and women is 15%, instead of 13% when it was in 1970, but in the other direction.

Mike Thurston 49:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:13 So there are fewer men going to university than there were fewer women going to university when that title was introduced. And now it's like w- why, why are men falling behind? Can't they pull themselves up by their bootstraps? So that is the, one of the differences, and one of the support structures that women do have that I think is lacking more so for men, uh, which is the, uh, sympathy that the wider world would typically give them. And it's because, you know, like, men, specifically white men, have had it good for so long that maybe it's their turn to, you know, be on the receiving end of some disadvantages for a while, which is not how the world is supposed to work.

Mike Thurston 49:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:49 It's not supposed to be that you're like overdrawn on your suffering balance, and now it's your turn to, to take some of this. I don't think that that's the way that it's supposed to work. But yeah, I, I really, I really think that we're gonna see over the next few years like a challenge for women, for their role models. "What am I supposed to do with my life? How can I find like pride, uh, uh, and fulfillment that doesn't completely destroy like my innate biological urges as well?"

Mike Thurston 50:17 What's your experience been trying to find female guests for your show?

Chris Williamson 50:24 Hmm. Easier for me, uh, because my interest in psychology, uh, uh, area which is dominated by women has meant that at least 50% of the episodes that I do are with women.

Mike Thurston 50:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:38 But this is an interesting lesson to learn. There was a period a while ago where I was big into the productivity space, I was doing a lot of stuff around health and fitness. It's a, both arenas that are dominated by men, and I would get criticized for the fact that I was bringing too many men on, like, "Why, why aren't there enough men? Uh, why aren't there enough-"

Mike Thurston 50:53 I was gonna ask about that.

Chris Williamson 50:54 "... why aren't there enough women?" Uh, but then since women come on, people just find something else to criticize. It's like-

Mike Thurston 50:59 Well, 'cause it's-

Chris Williamson 51:00 ... w- why is everybody from, why is everybody right-leaning, or why is everybody British, or why is everybody white? Like, you're never going to be able to make your guest list sufficiently pure or, uh, sufficiently representative to mediate all of people's problems. And the way that you said, before we started, I was like, "Who, w- why are you bringing your guests on?" And you said, "Anybody that I'm interested in."

Mike Thurston 51:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:21 That's the only way that you can go.

Mike Thurston 51:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:23 It's the only way that you can go.

Mike Thurston 51:24 You can't fake the interest.

Chris Williamson 51:25 No, correct. Uh, something else that's changed with you recently, which I've been very, very enjoying watching happen-

Mike Thurston 51:33 I'm wearing more clothes on my Instagram pictures.

Chris Williamson 51:35 That's been nice-

Mike Thurston 51:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 51:37 ... for me personally as well, yes.

Mike Thurston 51:39 Don't lie.

Chris Williamson 51:40 But

Chris Williamson 51:41 your relationship with alcohol.

Mike Thurston 51:42 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:42 Talk to me about your relationship with alcohol and how it's changed.

Mike Thurston 51:45 Yeah, so I, um, I pretty much barely drink anymore. Um, I used to be, I guess that's 'cause it's the whole British culture, I actually drank numerous times per week, particularly when I was growing up. University, then even throughout my 20s, I was very much into my fitness, but at the same time, there was always at least one extremely heavy blowout at the weekend. And then, um, it just carried on, like even, I think when I was, when I was th- just before, no, 29, I did the first experiment where I went sober for six months. And that taught me a lot, because I was put in situations where I would normally drink, and because I was doing this challenge, I wasn't allowed to drink. And I think that was the first time that I was in situations where, uh, usually I would be drunk and like in a relaxed state, whatever it might be, but this time like, I was sober. I was doing something which I would never do, and I actually realized it wasn't that hard to do, and I actually quite liked it. And I think I just, life is just short and I can't afford to have days wasting away feeling sorry for myself, being ex- aggressively hungover, which at the age I'm at now, it, the, it was a pretty aggressive-

Chris Williamson 53:06 They hit hard.

Mike Thurston 53:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 53:06 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Thurston 53:07 But the, what I'll, what I'll do now is I will, I will still drink, but it usually tends to be when I have done, achieved something or I've got the job done and I can celebrate. It's like, "Okay, you've achieved this. Let's go out, let's celebrate, have a drink if you want to have a drink." Once that's over, then it's back to the grind again.

Chris Williamson 53:32 What else have you learned from your time going sober? Obviously the reason for doing it is that you don't want to waste-

Mike Thurston 53:38 Um...

Chris Williamson 53:38 ... your days so much, but what else have you learned?

Mike Thurston 53:40 I actually really enjoy my reality being sober. Um, I actually don't really like the feeling of being drunk anymore. I think now I'm at a point where I feel like I'm very much in control. I like the, I really like the person who I am now when I'm sober. I can, I'm extremely co- more, a lot more confident now. I can have conversations with anyone, I can charm people, I can, you know, have a laugh, I can have a dance, I can do whatever I need to do, but I can do it sober and there's actually no real need for me to drink. And when I do drink, I realize actually, I start to get a little bit sloppy with my words. I say things which I wouldn't normally say, might potentially regret. And then there's parts of the night, the whole conversation, which I won't remember, and then I wake up feeling like absolute trash. Spend a lot of money as well out here on alcohol, which is usually just not wise. So it's, uh, (laughs) when I compare the positives to the negatives, there's actually very few positives.

Chris Williamson 54:39 Yeah. So this, I mean, you know, this was something-

Mike Thurston 54:43 I, I don't, I don't know, I'm thinking now like, so why did I drink so-

Chris Williamson 54:46 That's the question I had on the tip of my tongue.

Mike Thurston 54:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:48 Like you've, you've, you've laid out this balance sheet of positives and negatives.

Mike Thurston 54:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 54:54 Why did either of us, and this is both of our upbringings, right? You know, our formative years in Newcastle, and then both of us stuck about once we finished our degrees, going out, drinking trebs-... you know —

Mike Thurston 55:08 You could get absolutely annihilated for, like, 10 pounds.

Chris Williamson 55:12 Correct. Yeah, so, again, for the people who don't know, when we were at uni, you could have got three treble vodka-

Mike Thurston 55:17 Two tips for 40.

Chris Williamson 55:17 ... mixers for a fiver and you'd usually get a free Jagerbomb with each of them. So that's nine shots of vodka, plus three shots of Jager for a fiver. And the way that it would work is you couldn't carry all of them back.

Mike Thurston 55:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:28 You would have to pour all of the Jagers in together, drink that, drink one of the trebs, and then carry two back. Um, so what I'm thinking is, why is it that we ever saw it as something that not only we would do, we would willingly do, we would repeatedly do two nights a week throughout all of uni? Why?

Mike Thurston 55:51 I think, uh, from thinking back when I was at university, I actually don't re- now that I recall, I don't know anybody that didn't drink. I feel like every single person drank.

Chris Williamson 56:02 Yep.

Mike Thurston 56:02 And if there was anyone that didn't drink, they were just, they were wei-... You wouldn't hang out with them.

Chris Williamson 56:09 Like, they weren't a part of the social group.

Mike Thurston 56:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:10 They weren't a part of the social circle.

Mike Thurston 56:12 Um, I definitely remember drinking a lot just to feel more comfortable, to reduce the anxiety.

Chris Williamson 56:18 Me too.

Mike Thurston 56:18 Um, yeah, because, especially when you're having, you're in a club, the music's really loud, there's lights everywhere, there's people everywhere talking, it's really overwhelming. So the alcohol would numb that and then you would feel more comfortable.

Chris Williamson 56:34 Just to interject there, think about the modern world, this 2023 version of the world. Someone would say that if that was a challenge that you were coming up against, that that's because you're like a blue pill, beta, simp guy who hasn't worked on his masculine essence and stuff. And I think that, just to bring it back to what we spoke about earlier on, about, like, why young guys struggling specifically now, this expectation, again, that you should have your shit together, you go, "Really? Because I didn't."

Mike Thurston 57:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:06 "I didn't. I absolutely drank so I had confidence to speak to girls." I remember I used to have this, I had this, uh, like, pink polo shirt and pair of jeans, and one night I pulled because, like, and I was adamant it was because of this particular outfit.

Mike Thurston 57:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:22 And I'm like, "Oh, that's like, that's the one." And I was so drunk that I could barely remember what had happened during the night.

Mike Thurston 57:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:29 And you think, "What? Like, what, how..." That's compensating for the fact that it's just a really highly stimulating, pretty anxiety-inducing environment.

Mike Thurston 57:41 Mm-hmm. I think it, it would probably make more sense just to not go out. But that was, that was like the biggest part of university was going out, particularly in Newcastle.

Chris Williamson 57:52 Correct.

Mike Thurston 57:52 And that was like the reason why I choosed, I chose Newcastle.

Chris Williamson 57:54 Also correct, yeah.

Mike Thurston 57:55 So, yeah, I don't know. And I guess, at that age, you really don't have much responsibility. Like, I think back to university, I mean, I just, you obviously needed to get the bare minimum done, you had to do a bit of studying, you didn't have a job, you're just living off the student loan.

Chris Williamson 58:12 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 58:12 You're just having a laugh-

Chris Williamson 58:13 Because you could aff- Yeah.

Mike Thurston 58:14 ... with your mates, so if you did wake up hungover, then so what?

Chris Williamson 58:18 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 58:19 It wasn't, you didn't really...

Chris Williamson 58:19 Spend the, spend the day watching the Rugby World Cup or whatever was going on, the Six Nations or some other thing, or movies in the common room, and then get back to it. Yeah. I, um... So, like, again, I get that, but I think the number of people that drink, the number of young people that are choosing to go low and no alcohol lifestyles massively increasing.

Mike Thurston 58:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:40 I'd love to say that this is downstream from a trend that I kicked off, but I think it's bigger than that.

Mike Thurston 58:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:45 And I do, I can't work out what's going on there. I wonder whether...

Mike Thurston 58:51 I think it's more, it's just accepted now. I think it was really not acceptable back in the day.

Chris Williamson 58:57 Unacceptable to not drink.

Mike Thurston 58:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:58 Like, unacceptable.

Mike Thurston 58:59 Whereas now, it's like, "Okay, yeah, fair enough." Maybe the, I think there's a lot more informative content out there which is showing just how bad alcohol is, like Hugh Munson's, his video about alcohol.

Chris Williamson 59:13 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 59:13 I listen to that and you're like, "Wow."

Chris Williamson 59:15 "I'm not going to drink again."

Mike Thurston 59:16 Wow. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:16 Yeah, it's terrible. Yeah, it's really, really bad.

Mike Thurston 59:18 So I think more people are waking up to the negative side effects of drinking alcohol. Um, but it's still, there's still a lot of people drinking. I still have a lot of friends who are drinking.

Chris Williamson 59:30 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 59:31 But I just don't give a shit if I'm gonna offend their feelings.

Chris Williamson 59:33 I wonder whether part of it comes to choosing, first off, choosing the kind of events that you go to, and then secondly, that, that growing in confidence, because you're right. If you're in a banging, loud student nightclub with 1,500 sweaty freshers and The Killers' Mr. Brightside playing at ear-bleeding levels, which is like-

Mike Thurston 59:56 Your beard's spilt on your face.

Chris Williamson 59:58 Correct. You're, that's not the place for you to... What advantage do you have in being able to have a better conversation?

Mike Thurston 1:00:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:06 Like, you almost need to drink to be able to cope with the environment that you're in, to be able to make it good. And this is the thing that I've been saying for like seven years, like, if you need to drink in order to be able to enjoy a night out, you're choosing the wrong nights out.

Mike Thurston 1:00:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:20 Like, what you're saying is that the experience that you're going on is so bad that you have to anesthetize yourself, you have to numb yourself to the experience. You're, well, how... That's like saying, "I'm going to go and do this, push it, I'm going to go stick needles through the skin on the back of my hand, but I'll take some painkillers so it doesn't hurt so much."

Mike Thurston 1:00:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:39 Hang, hang on a second. As you grow up, you start to do different sorts of events. You'll go for dinner more, you'll go to quieter venues, you'll go to somewhere where there's live music where you can have a conversation. And that is, that sort of enjoyment is facilitated more by being sober.

Mike Thurston 1:00:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:56 Uh, so I wonder whether it's a by-product of the kind of events that young people typically attend. I wonder whether Darren, my business partner who's still doing all the voodoo in the UK, I wonder whether he needs to, I know, do-... coffee and cocktail hour at five o'clock in the afternoon or something.

Mike Thurston 1:01:11 Well, it's-

Chris Williamson 1:01:11 I don't know.

Mike Thurston 1:01:11 ... I, I think that's, as well, when you're in an environment where everybody else is drunk, like, that is, that's full on. When you're sober and you're just looking at people-

Chris Williamson 1:01:20 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:01:21 ... ugh, it's, it's heavy. Like, I, I feel like if I'm in an environment where everybody's drunk, I almost need to be drunk just to-

Chris Williamson 1:01:31 Deal with it.

Mike Thurston 1:01:31 ... tolerate it.

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 Correct. Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:01:33 Phew.

Chris Williamson 1:01:34 Looking forward

Chris Williamson 1:01:35 now, you've got, you're doing business stuff. You've got clothing, you've got app, you're still growing your platforms.

Mike Thurston 1:01:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:44 As a, a guy that from the outside looks like he's accomplished a lot of things and is living a, a, an enjoyable life in a desirable city-

Mike Thurston 1:01:51 I actually have no money.

Chris Williamson 1:01:52 Yeah. (laughs) Skint.

Mike Thurston 1:01:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:53 Spend it all on this apartment. Spend it all on this very expensive apartment.

Mike Thurston 1:01:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:57 Um, what are you, are you accumulating skills at the moment? Are you developing yourself? Are there certain things that you've set yourself with regards to goals?

Mike Thurston 1:02:07 I think the, uh, the podcast thing has massively improved my ability to have a, a conversation. And-

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 Even only 13 episodes in already?

Mike Thurston 1:02:15 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:16 Wow.

Mike Thurston 1:02:16 I feel like I'm, I'm, I'm learning a hell of a lot, which is, which is good. But I'm doing the podcast more just to help with growing the brand, and particularly the networking. Because being in Dubai, there's always so many people coming in and out, and whenever I do meet up with someone who is quite interesting, I end up having a really amazing conversation. I'm like-

Chris Williamson 1:02:39 "Should've recorded that."

Mike Thurston 1:02:40 ... "yeah, like this, this needs to be out there." And it's not the right ti- like, you can't do, it wouldn't work in a vlog. Because a vlog, you chop things up and it's like, you would only take five minutes of it. So, that was one reason. And then another one is, um, it gives you, it opens doors for meeting very interesting people, all, people who I respect and want to meet.

Chris Williamson 1:03:01 Thank you.

Mike Thurston 1:03:02 Because (laughs) , I, you know, somebody who, say for example, who's been very successful or they're, they're killing it, making loads of money, I maybe don't really have much to offer them. Maybe I could help them get in shape. But that's not a quick fix, and it's not something I particularly want to do. I don't want to be a personal trainer for celebrities. But when you have an audience and you have a platform, all of a sudden you become, uh, potentially a good asset to them. Because if they're releasing a book or they wanna spread a message or they want to increase their own following, then coming onto the podcast is gonna be exactly what they want. So, that's, it's like a strategic thing.

Chris Williamson 1:03:45 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 1:03:45 But I'm also learning a lot at the same time.

Chris Williamson 1:03:48 Is there anything else? Is there anything else that you're thinking at the moment is, uh, an area of your life that needs optimizing?

Mike Thurston 1:03:53 Yeah. Um, monetizing the following, 'cause, uh-

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 You and me both.

Mike Thurston 1:03:59 ... yeah. So, I think, um, I've been good at building a brand and growing a following, but I'm actually quite shit at selling things. And-

Chris Williamson 1:04:10 You and me both.

Mike Thurston 1:04:12 ... (laughs) and marketing.

Chris Williamson 1:04:13 You and me both.

Mike Thurston 1:04:13 So, and it's, it's, it's weird 'cause I guess I never really learnt much about it. Like, I'd, even though I went to school, went to university, you don't get taught how to sell at school, how to market. University, I did economics and business management, but still, it was like, so heavy on the theory, the maths, the equations. I was like, "I thought I was gonna learn how to run a business here, but I'm not learning any of that." So, those skills, I never really developed. And obviously I got straight into personal training, so I mastered the art of building muscle, losing body f- body fat, how to communicate with people, uh, my presentation skills, but no marketing or sales.

Chris Williamson 1:04:50 It's not commercializing stuff.

Mike Thurston 1:04:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:52 This is something that I t- I like, lament about this all the time, just how much is getting left on the table. You know, we both have-

Mike Thurston 1:05:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:00 ... friends who will have significantly, uh, easier weeks with less work, with smaller followings, with less impact, adding less value, making so much more money.

Mike Thurston 1:05:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:13 And it's not even necessarily about the money. I don't think that either of us are like, uh, you know, n- needing more materialism-

Mike Thurston 1:05:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:19 ... in our lives. But there's just a sense of, "Well, I'm leaving a lot on the table here."

Mike Thurston 1:05:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:24 Uh, and, yeah, that's-

Mike Thurston 1:05:26 'Cause I, I'm not, I'm not motivated by money. Obviously you need it, but once you reach a certain amount, (clears throat) you don't really need more unless you want-

Chris Williamson 1:05:36 What would you do? Get a slightly nicer-

Mike Thurston 1:05:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:37 ... apartment with maybe another 10 floors up or something?

Mike Thurston 1:05:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:40 You know, it's-

Mike Thurston 1:05:40 Unless you wanna start investing in buying property or you wanna build another business, then okay, yeah. (clears throat) But that's the, uh, one thing about Dubai is I've, particularly in the past year, I remember, I think it was like, maybe I got back from traveling that summer. And my goal was look, "I just wanna build my network. I just wanna meet people. I wanna meet, I wanna surround myself with successful people who are doing very well." And I've met a lot of interesting people. In fact, the majority of people who I'm hanging out with now have nothing to do with fitness. They're just extremely successful in their own field. And it's crazy to, like you said, they might have 10,000 followers, 20,000 followers on Instagram.

Chris Williamson 1:06:23 Crushing it.

Mike Thurston 1:06:24 And they're making (laughs) so much money. I'm like, "Whoa!"

Chris Williamson 1:06:27 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:06:27 Like, "How are you doing that?"

Chris Williamson 1:06:29 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:06:29 And they tell me like, "Oh, yeah. The sales funnel." And I'm like...

Chris Williamson 1:06:33 Never learned that.

Mike Thurston 1:06:33 ... "What the hell's a sales funnel?"

Chris Williamson 1:06:35 Didn't, didn't learn that. Yeah. I, I, I mean, this is, this is something that will be very interesting to see how the next couple of years develops.

Mike Thurston 1:06:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:44 Because I'm very conscious of not, like, selling out.

Mike Thurston 1:06:48 Yeah, yeah. I've been the same.

Chris Williamson 1:06:49 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:06:49 I don't, I don't, uh, anyone who watches my content, I very rarely push things onto my followers.

Chris Williamson 1:06:56 Anything. Yep. Yeah. And I think that in the long term, that's the right way to go about things.

Mike Thurston 1:07:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:00 Right? Because your, your reputation is something that you can't buy back.

Mike Thurston 1:07:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:07:05 If you do sell your integrity, there is no refund policy.

Mike Thurston 1:07:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:08 On that. And-... whatever it is, it takes a, a, a lifetime to build trust and one bad conversation.

Mike Thurston 1:07:13 What's, like, what's

Mike Thurston 1:07:14 happened with Logan Paul? Like, he's just (whispers) fucked his rep.

Chris Williamson 1:07:17 So, I mean, he's a really good example, or a very interesting one, because it seems like him and his brother can just steamroll through issues.

Mike Thurston 1:07:25 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:26 You know, the Coffeezilla thing was really damning. It was a two-part or three-part series that kind of broke down all of this stuff that Logan was doing with his NFTs. And then Coffee goes on Rogan, and Rogan asks him-

Mike Thurston 1:07:37 Yeah, I listened to that.

Chris Williamson 1:07:38 ... "What's the biggest thing?" And then they, they pull that, and they put that on a clip on Rogan's 20 million-person YouTube channel, which gives it another lease of life.

Mike Thurston 1:07:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:47 And meanwhile, Logan Paul is doing WWE, he's s- making money on Prime, and he's got all of these businesses. I don't know what it is, and I would love for someone to explain it to me. Those guys, both Logan and Jake, have an uncanny ability to just keep moving through obstacles.

Mike Thurston 1:08:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:05 Bad things happen, and it just doesn't faze them. I remember, after the Tommy Fury-Jake Paul fight-

Mike Thurston 1:08:13 (coughs)

Chris Williamson 1:08:13 ... there was a video that he uploaded, might even have been the first story of the next day on his Instagram. And (laughs) it was him going, looking at the camera, and being happy, and then looking down a- a- and putting his head in his hands as if he was sad. And the caption below was, "When you lost the fight but made 30 mil."

Mike Thurston 1:08:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:08:30 (laughs) It's like, you can't fucking knock it. You can't knock that.

Mike Thurston 1:08:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:08:36 Um, so there's something happening with them, and I really want to try and deconstruct what's going on to, to-

Mike Thurston 1:08:43 Yeah. Well, I, I think the fighting thing was very good, 'cause you, you can't — you've always got to respect someone who's going to step into the ring.

Chris Williamson 1:08:48 Good point.

Mike Thurston 1:08:49 Like, you, even I have not done that.

Chris Williamson 1:08:52 But why is Logan able to continue plowing through these challenges and accusations of, of, of NFT fuckery and stuff?

Mike Thurston 1:09:01 It's weird. Yeah, it's weird. Because it's almost like, maybe it's because he's been through it before, and he knows, "Yep, you're going to be the most hated man on the planet for a couple of days or weeks, and then people forget about it, and then it's just back to business as usual."

Chris Williamson 1:09:14 Mm. So he's personally capable of dealing with it. But e- even that, like, you know, someone could be personally capable and their reputation could be damaged. That should be independent of what happens to their reputation.

Mike Thurston 1:09:25 Well, do you, do you think, let's say, for example, everything that's happened with Liver King. Do you think his reputation is (cries) because I went on his Instagram the other day, and he's still getting loads of likes, and comments, and views, and I'm like, "Why are people still watching this (laughs) ?"

Chris Williamson 1:09:37 Unbelievable. I don't know.

Mike Thurston 1:09:39 Like, how, how is this house still a thing?

Chris Williamson 1:09:43 Okay, so here's what-

Mike Thurston 1:09:43 He was there, just with a big plate of testicles. And I just thought, "Wow, he's still-"

Chris Williamson 1:09:50 Nothing's changed.

Mike Thurston 1:09:51 "... he's still doing his thing."

Chris Williamson 1:09:53 What do you think about Liver King?

Mike Thurston 1:09:55 (laughs) He's an interesting guy, very interesting guy. I don't know. I, I think it was, it was — he did so many interviews where he was literally asked whether or not he was natural, and he just says, like so — almost convincingly, like, "No, I've never taken anything." I don't feel like that was necessary. I feel like if he just said, "Yeah, I was, I'm on a bit of this, I'm on a bit of that," people would have been like, "Oh, yeah, okay." Because most people, a lot of people in the industry at the moment are taking stuff anyway.

Chris Williamson 1:10:23 It would have undermined his ancestral message, though, right?

Mike Thurston 1:10:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:26 Heavily.

Mike Thurston 1:10:28 (inhales deeply) Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, 'cause he was pushing-

Chris Williamson 1:10:30 All-natural thing.

Mike Thurston 1:10:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:10:33 Apart from those steroids.

Mike Thurston 1:10:34 But I think the, yeah, the, the fact that he was doing that, and he'd already sent that email to Derek, like, he's playing with fire.

Chris Williamson 1:10:43 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:10:44 Like, that's...

Chris Williamson 1:10:46 (sighs) I, so, (sighs) the Liver King thing is kind of fascinating to look at now as a post-mortem, and maybe it is similar to Logan Paul. I've got this idea that I've been playing with for a little while, to do with, uh, how seduced by success the world is.

Mike Thurston 1:10:59 Mm.

Chris Williamson 1:11:00 And do you remember Billy McFarland, the guy that did Fyre Festival?

Mike Thurston 1:11:03 Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:11:04 Yeah. So, uh, again, for the people that don't know, this festival, Fyre Festival, was supposed to be, it was run on Pablo Escobar's island, and Kendall Jenner was part of the promotion campaign for it. And it was going to be this elite, super high-class music festival, and Blink-182 were going to play, and it was this amazing headliners, and the whole thing turned out to be a car crash.

Mike Thurston 1:11:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:11:24 And then, basically, people nearly died. There was no water, there was no nothing. (inhales sharply) But had Billy McFarland managed to pull off even a remotely acceptable event, he would have been hailed as a marketing genius, as opposed to a charlatan con man. And the only difference between how people perceived him was the success of the event. That didn't change the ethics of how he got there-

Mike Thurston 1:11:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:11:52 ... in terms of his marketing practices, how he'd raised money, which was done, like, incredibly unethically, lying to people about where the money was going, and flying back and forth to and from New York, and all of this sort of stuff. And what that made me realize is, for as long as you're successful, people will put up with pretty much anything, because they are so concerned about being in the trickle-down cast-off of your success. They want to bask in the reflective glow of whatever it is that you do, so much that they're prepared to forgive pretty much any indiscretion. And this is what will be interesting to see what happens with Tate-

Mike Thurston 1:12:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:12:32 ... when he inevitably comes back into the public limelight, perhaps from a witness box, perhaps from behind bars, or perhaps if he gets released back out into the real world. Because, is it going