AUBREY MARCUS | What Makes A Good Life? | Modern Wisdom Podcast 117

Aubrey Marcus 0:00 If, like, you think that some external achievement is gonna make you happy, you're gonna get it and you're gonna realize that it's not gonna make you happy. Until you actually start to get the things that you're striving for, you're not gonna realize that they aren't gonna make you happy. So, I almost feel like everybody needs to learn the tactics and the techniques and get the tools to actually get what they're aiming for. So, like, if you wanna get some level of financial wealth and you think that's gonna make you happy and you just want that, well, the best way to transcend that is to actually get it. I don't know how you do it unless you actually get it. And then when you get it, then you're like, "Fuck, I gotta figure out some other things that'll work."

Chris Williamson 0:39 I'm joined by Aubrey Marcus, founder and CEO of Onnit, fellow podcaster, and all-around fascinating human. Aubrey, welcome to the show.

Aubrey Marcus 0:49 Oh, thanks, brother. Happy to be here.

Chris Williamson 0:50 Very, very happy to have you on. I'm sure there'll be a lot of people that are familiar with what it is that you do. But how would you describe what it is that you do on a daily basis and your life to someone who's never met you before?

Aubrey Marcus 1:03 (clears throat) Yeah, it's an interesting thing. I mean, obviously, you can describe the, the things that I've done, you know, in my personal history that I've accomplished. You know, founded the company, Onnit, you know, wrote the book, Own the Day, done the Aubrey Marcus podcast. I mean, there's these things that I've done. But really, if you're talking about me as a person, I'm just someone who's trying to learn a little bit more today, um, that'll make me a little bit better tomorrow than I am today. You know? So, um, just someone who's on the path of learning and the path of exploring and the path of asking questions, and, um, trying to figure out the small questions and the big questions.

Chris Williamson 1:40 Isn't that interesting that when asked that, one of the first things that we default to is our achievements, our quantifiable metrics of status?

Aubrey Marcus 1:51 Hmm. Yeah, I mean, that's what, that's what the typical response to that question is. You know? Like, what is it ... Who ... What's your job? Like, what have you done? Like, what are your, what are your validations? It's, it's reinforcing your somebody-ness, you know, as some of the spiritual teachers say. Like, this is what makes you somebody.

Chris Williamson 2:09 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 2:09 You founded a company, you wrote a book, you have a podcast, you have this, you know, wife, you have this thing, you have these kids, you have... This is your somebody-ness. Um, and that's one level of expression, of course, and that's all fine, but the really interesting thing is like, who are you and how close are you becoming to the truth of who and what you are and how you serve? You know, that's, that's a really much more interesting question, for me at least. Um, but, you know, the

Aubrey Marcus 2:38 other stuff is fine too.

Chris Williamson 2:39 I think it's interesting for me as well, but it's a little bit less sexy and easy to, uh, get out in a cocktail party or, like, when you're sat around-

Aubrey Marcus 2:47 Right.

Chris Williamson 2:47 ... the dinner table, eh?

Aubrey Marcus 2:49 Yeah (laughs) . It's, uh, it's in- ... You have to suss out the audience, you know?

Chris Williamson 2:52 Yeah, you gotta curate.

Aubrey Marcus 2:53 You have to realize, like ... Yeah, you gotta figure out who's gonna, who's gonna care about those, those more interesting issues and who's just gonna wanna talk about the same old stuff. You know? Like, um ... And that's, that's kind of the people I like to surround myself with, people that we can immediately bypass past the-

Chris Williamson 3:13 Small talk.

Aubrey Marcus 3:13 ... banal recounting of the, the personal history. You know? Like, the, "All right, that happened. I can tell you what happened, but, uh, but that's not what's interesting. What's more interesting is what's happening." You know? Like-

Chris Williamson 3:24 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 3:25 ... how is ... Not w- who Aubrey was, but what is the Aubrey-ing that's going on right now?

Chris Williamson 3:31 (laughs) Yeah, I understand. The verb to Aubrey. Um-

Aubrey Marcus 3:34 Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 3:35 Yeah. Uh, i- again, it's, it's so interesting because it's easy for people to have a conversation ... Let's say someone maybe has quite subtle or contrary views, or they fall on the ends of the distribution for whatever normality is, th- they have things in common in the way that they think or the way that they speak about everything with other people, and they have to choose whether they want to be honest or they want to be acceptable. And that-

Aubrey Marcus 4:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:04 ... that game of, "How much should I open up?" And as you've alluded to, one of the key words is truth, speaking your truth forward, being as virtuous as you can, living with integrity, and acting the logos, if you're going Jordan Peterson with it. And it's easy to see why people start to take on these personas, right? They start to get addicted to the acceptability and they forget the honesty until they don't know what honesty looks like anymore.

Aubrey Marcus 4:30 (clears throat) It's a bad trap, because the persona is incapable of actually receiving love. It can receive praise, but you're not gonna feel it because it's not you. You know what I mean? It's like (clears throat) when people ... I think it's one of the reasons that, like, actors have a problem, right? Like, people may love the character that they played and that may make them love that, that person when they see them, but the actor's just playing a character. So, you know, you can be appreciated for your craft as an actor, but that person is not actually gonna feel love. You know? Because they know they're being loved for being Gladiator.

Chris Williamson 5:07 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 5:07 You know? They're not being loved for being like-

Chris Williamson 5:09 Or Thor or whoever it is, yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 5:09 Yeah, for Thor. Yeah, it's n- ... It's not, it's not that people are loving Russell Crowe, they're loving fucking Maximus. You know what I mean? And, and so we're all playing our own version of Maximus-

Chris Williamson 5:19 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 5:19 ... and then showing people this thing, and then people are loving that thing, but it's not actually landing. So, we're actually denying ourself the ability to have that genuine human connection that we really crave and really being seen unless we lead with our vulnerability. You know? I mean, that's the, that's the key thing that's gonna allow us to really feel, um, all the good

Aubrey Marcus 5:42 stuff.

Chris Williamson 5:42 Mm-hmm. Do you find yourself ... Obviously, as you've mentioned, there are quantifiable metrics of success that can be ascribed to you to define you. As those begin to mount up and continue to mount up, does it feel sometimes like baggage that you then need to release, to not identify yourself with those things?

Aubrey Marcus 6:04 You know, I think I, um, (clears throat) I think I do, uh, I think I can get stuck in little sticky traps, for sure. Um, but I think my sticky traps are the, the traps of kind of ... binding myself to a certain e- expectation of progress-

Chris Williamson 6:23 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 6:24 ... an expectation of doing more. It's not that I'm like ... it's not that I have to shed the, the baggage of the past, because I almost do that automatically. Like, "Oh, I did that yesterday. Whatever, that doesn't ... that was, that was yesterday." Like, I don't really celebrate the things that have happened in the past. I'm always looking towards the new thing. And so, that's actually where I have more of a challenge. You know, it's like, I, they ... and you know, I got the, I got the text and the call that, um, Own The Day Of Your Life was a New York Times bestseller, which is something that I really was-

Chris Williamson 6:55 Congratulations.

Aubrey Marcus 6:56 ... hoping would happen. Yeah, thank you. So, so when that happened, though, I took like one minute to be like, (exhales) "That's pretty cool."

Chris Williamson 7:04 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 7:05 And then, like immediately, like I didn't give a shit and I was (laughs) onto the next thing. You know what I mean? So it wasn't like ... So for me, it's about slowing down a little bit and not trying to think about what the next thing is, and just being able to like be at peace with where I'm at now, as well as have that ambition to continue to go and to continue to, to offer my, uh, you know, what I have to give to the world. So yeah, for me it's a little bit of a different challenge. It's not so much that I'm, um, I need to let go of the past 'cause I feel like I o- I don't even take that in anyways. It's like, "Oh, that happened, whatever." But it's like, "What am I doing now?"

Chris Williamson 7:41 Yeah. So this-

Aubrey Marcus 7:42 And that's, and that's where I get

Aubrey Marcus 7:43 stuck.

Chris Williamson 7:43 Baggage from the future, bizarrely.

Aubrey Marcus 7:45 Yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 7:46 Not baggage from the past.

Aubrey Marcus 7:48 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 7:48 That's interesting. So I wonder whether or not the writing process of when you were writing your book, of whether you were more consumed with the idea of writing a good book and of potentially becoming a New York Times bestseller. And then when it happened, it's like, "Oh, okay." Like, "That's, that's done."

Aubrey Marcus 8:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:05 Isn't that bizarre that our conscientiousness and our industriousness, our desire to continue to feel like we're moving forward is a- a- almost ... that is what we're working toward, rather than the achievement itself?

Aubrey Marcus 8:18 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:18 The achievement comes and goes.

Aubrey Marcus 8:20 Yeah, totally. You know, it's like a (clears throat) , and that's why if you get stuck and that's the only thing that you're, you think is gonna make you happy, if like you think that some external achievement is gonna make you happy, you're gonna get it and you're gonna realize that it's not gonna make you happy. And I think it's, it's a, it's one of those things that until you actually start to get the things that you're, that you're striving for, you're not gonna realize that they aren't gonna make you happy. (clears throat) So I almost feel like everybody needs to learn the tactics and the techniques and get the tools to actually get what they're aiming for. So like if you wanna get some, some level of financial wealth and you think that's gonna make you happy and you just want that, well, the best way to transcend that is to actually get it. You know, if you think that writing a, a bestselling book is gonna m- make you happy, like the best way to realize that it's not gonna make you happy is to get it, (laughs) you know? It's like I don't know how you do it unless you actually get it. And then when you get it, then you're like, "Fuck. I gotta like-"

Chris Williamson 9:18 (laughs) Yeah, what is it now?

Aubrey Marcus 9:20 "... I gotta figure out some, I gotta figure out some other things that'll work." Uh, and that's the process of kinda like retraining yourself, and I think that's a process that I'm in now, is I still enjoy the things I do. And, and that's great because I'm very fortunate that I've chosen things that I love. I love podcasting, I love writing, I love y- running on it. But, um, nonetheless, I recognize that no external validation, no external thing is actually gonna make me happy. It's the internal work that's gonna actually level me up into a place where I have a deeper satisfaction and a deeper engagement with the world.

Chris Williamson 9:55 Isn't it interesting that we kind of need to close that loop? And that's a suggestion from yourself, because I think a lot of the time speaking to people who are quite spiritually minded, there is a ... there can be quite a aloofness or a- uh, people on a high horse about the fact that you should just be able to let go of your attachments or let go of your desires to achieve certain things. Whereas you're coming at it from an even more industrious perspective which is, okay, bring the thing that you think is going to make you happy and do as sharp a contrast as you can, i.e. make it happen.

Aubrey Marcus 10:31 Yup.

Chris Williamson 10:31 And then go from there. I think that's a really interesting way. And it's a, a much more fin- uh, final way. It's a proper full stop once you've done it.

Aubrey Marcus 10:41 I agree, man. And I just, I, I wish, I wish that I could believe that somebody could actually let this shit go without ha- without doing it.

Chris Williamson 10:50 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 10:51 I just, I don't think I've ever really seen it, you know? Because like I've seen people pretend. Like I've seen a lot of spiritual people pretend like, "I don't care about money, you know? Like, money doesn't matter." And then the minute we engage in some kinda business deal, you know, they get all squirrelly and get all weird. And I'm like, "Whoa."

Chris Williamson 11:09 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 11:09 Like, "Everything's cool. You're gonna get paid, like relax." You know? So I've never actually seen ... it's almost like they're, they're spiritually bypassing is, you know, the word. They're spiritually bypassing their egoic desires for something and pretending that they don't want it, or changing the game to change the rules. But I've never actually seen it work. The only time I've really seen it work is when someone actually gets that thing that they're aiming for, trains themselves, has the skills, learns the practice, gives the two 10,000 hours to actually get that, and then gets it and then realizes like, (exhales) "Okay, I got that and it didn't quite work."

Chris Williamson 11:45 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 11:45 "So now what's the next thing? It can't be more of the same."

Chris Williamson 11:48 Yes.

Aubrey Marcus 11:48 It's almost like, it's almost like Buddha, right? Like, would Buddha have been able to be Buddha if he didn't grow up in the palace in Artha? If he didn't grow up in the palace of luxury and feasts and sex and orgies and ... If he was outside the palace walls, he might have been like, "Man, if I could just get in that palace and have a couple feasts and a couple threesomes, man, I would, I'll be happy as shit."

Chris Williamson 12:08 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 12:09 You know? And then Buddha never would have existed. But because he grew up with that and realized that that didn't make him happy, then he went outside the palace walls and was like, "No, no, no. Like, that didn't work. I did that thing. I was not happy."... you know. Now, I'm doing this thing, sitting under the Bodhi tree, and I'm happy as shit, (laughs) you know, like... So it's, it's interesting and it's, uh, I'm definitely open to other ways for people to, you know, engage in the path. But, um, I think the most reliable thing is to just work to get those things that you want. And when you get those things that you want, you'll be ready to take the next step of the journey, which is to realize that there's more to life than getting these external, you know, achievements.

Chris Williamson 12:50 Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a very, very interesting way to look at it. So one of the things that I wanted to discuss today was what you think a good life looks like. And we've already touched on that, not necessarily doing things for their sake, doing them because they feel like something that's valuable to you, not doing them for external validation. But how do you define a good life? What does a good life look like to you?

Aubrey Marcus 13:18 (sighs) I think a good life is a life that leaves, um... It's a life that... the signature of that life is something that you've experienced, you've really lived. You've really... First of all, you have to really live life. You know, I, I think the ascetics, the people who've, like, denied the pleasures of the body and been in a path of renunciation, where they're just kind of isolating themselves or going to a monastery, I respect that path, but I don't think that, to me, is the path that most of us should take. I think we're here to live on the Earth, to really experience all the things, to eat the food, to try the drinks, to try the, you know, to try the drugs, not all the, not all the drugs-

Chris Williamson 14:02 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 14:02 ... but some of them, at least, you know.

Chris Williamson 14:03 Select drugs, yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 14:04 Select drugs. Yeah, like the, like do the things. Don't abuse them, you know, like don't go, you know what, go wild, but, like, experience all the things, like go visit the beautiful places, like dip in a cold waterfall and feel rain fall on your face and, you know, go to a hot desert and climb a snowy mountain and do all of these things. Surf and ski and, and play and dance and make love and, and do all the things that we're here to do. I think, I think that's a big part of it, is just open yourself up to that. I think another part is to feel our connection, you know, spiritually to everything around us, to that source energy, the universe, God, if you p- if your language permits it, whatever your language permits you to, to feel as far as the spiritual experience. I think that's a, a unique expression of what we're able to do here. So it's both the carnal and the spiritual, it's the physical and the astral kind of dancing together. Um, and then the other thing is to just make sure that you've left the world and everybody you've touched a little better for you having been here, and I think that's the commitment to service, you know. So experience everything, but also leave everybody that you touch and everybody, every place that you go a little more enriched and a little more colorful and, and vibrant than, than when you found it. And, um, if you do that, then that's a good life to me.

Chris Williamson 15:30 It's really nice guiding principles, I think.

Aubrey Marcus 15:32 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:33 An interesting thing there, again, one thing that appears to be a defining characteristic of what you're talking about here is agency and not inertia, not necessarily being an ascetic, as, as you suggested, not the relinquishing of things, but the, the movement, the direction towards those things. A body in motion stays in motion, and it continues to collect and move through these experiences and these adventures. I wonder how many people that lean toward a spiritual life and say that they are satisfied with simple things, that they only need... Some people take pride in how little stimulus they need to be happy. And again, as you've suggested, there's some spiritual leaders and some master meditators for whom that's amazing. But I wonder how many other people are kidding themselves into believing that because it is a very easy way to not have to push for many-

Aubrey Marcus 16:30 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:30 ... things in life and to allow yourself to settle at a much lower set point of experience and adventure.

Aubrey Marcus 16:38 I'd say most of them.

Chris Williamson 16:40 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 16:40 You know, I'd, I'd say, I mean, if you're asking me, like, what's the ratio, I'd say that's most people. You know, I think we... it's, uh, we're afraid. We're afraid to acknowledge what we want. We're afraid to acknowledge what's possible because then we're afraid we might fail, we're afraid we might not get it, so it's easier to just pretend like, "Oh, I don't care about any of that." You know, like, "Nah, it doesn't matter to me," because that's just changing the value structure so that your, the ego can win at a certain level that the ego doesn't feel like it can win at the other level.

Chris Williamson 17:08 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 17:09 But, um, it's really, it's ultimately the pursuit of the thing that's, that's always the most enjoyable anyways, and, and I think there's a great satisfaction in getting, getting yourself better at whatever it is that you can do, you know? And, uh... So yeah, I mean, I think it's most people who are, who are kidding themselves when they're saying that they don't want these things, they don't want... I think we, we do want these things. It's part of life. And it doesn't have to be fancy, like, I mean, you don't have to have a Ferrari. Like, that's, like, not necessary, but, like, a nice car. There's lots of nice cars. And it might be nice to have a nice car, like a vehicle, a mechanical vehicle that, like, you're like, "Yeah, I fucking like this thing." You know, like, you don't have to set your sights on some super fancy, you know, Bentley Ghost or whatever the fuck, you know?

Chris Williamson 17:57 Yeah, some rocket to Mars, yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 17:59 Yeah, exactly. Just like, just like... But, but know that, like, no, I want a nice car, and I want, like, a comfortable house that has, like... I wanna own my own place, and I wanna, like... You know, one day I wanna have a threesome, you know? And, like, (laughs) whatever the, whatever your thing is-

Chris Williamson 18:13 I- Do you know what it is? You, you've just taken the words out of my mouth. Not threesome, but, um, one of the fans of the show, Jordan, I know he's also a fan of yours, he once told me the story about why he...... I, I don't know whether he's got a written list, but I know that he has a bunch of desires that he wants to fulfill sexually, like to have sex with a Brazilian girl, and to have sex with a this girl, and to have sex with a that girl. And it comes back to the open loops we were talking about earlier on, and he said that he wants, once he's settled down with his wife-to-be and he's starting to build a family, he wants to be able to walk past a Brazilian girl in the street and not think, "I wonder what it's like to fuck a Brazilian girl."

Aubrey Marcus 18:45 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:47 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 18:47 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, totally.

Chris Williamson 18:49 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 18:49 It's like, if you don't, if you don't do that, I mean, it would be like imagining, imagining, like, y- a certain type of fruit is forbidden. Like watermelon is forbidden, right? And then y- you can... 'Cause you've made an agreement with somebody that you can no longer ever have watermelon. Well, that might be fine if you've had a lot of watermelon in your life. You're like-

Chris Williamson 19:07 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 19:07 ... "Eh, I know what a watermelon. It's pretty good, but, like, I'm good. Like, I can remember what that's like." But can you imagine? Can you imagine walking by a watermelon, everybody's on a hot summer day just pouring salt on it and, like-

Chris Williamson 19:18 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 19:18 ... "Oh," just juice dripping down their mouth?

Chris Williamson 19:20 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 19:20 And you're like, "God, I can't even fucking try that thing? That really is bugging me." (laughs) You know what I mean? Like... And that's, I think, I think the, uh, that's the thing. Like, get out there and live, like, really live, especially before you get in a situation that's going to restrict your ability to do that. And, and I think there's lots of benefits. People think I'm, like, this open relationship champion. I'm not. It has tons of perils and tons of challenges, and it's a very hard path. But I think it's, it is important to, like, have a lot of experiences, like your friend says, so that if you do get in a situation where you are restricting, uh, some of the options that you might have, that you understand, like, that you've gone out there and you've lived.

Chris Williamson 20:03 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 20:03 And that you know, you know largely what the landscape of everything

Aubrey Marcus 20:08 looks like.

Chris Williamson 20:09 Do you think you'll be non-monogamous for the rest of your life? Or have you not got an agenda at the moment?

Aubrey Marcus 20:14 Uh, you know, that's a really interesting question. (dog barking) I mean, right now, uh... Sorry about that. That's, uh... The dog gets really excited when somebody comes to the door. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:22 Is it not when someone talks about non-monogamy? Is that what it is?

Aubrey Marcus 20:24 Yeah. (laughs) The, the dog gets really-

Chris Williamson 20:25 Someone mentions the word non-monogamy-

Aubrey Marcus 20:27 Someone mentions non-monogamy-

Chris Williamson 20:27 ... and the dog goes crazy. (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 20:32 ... monogamy. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:32 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 20:32 Yeah. Um, you know, it's a really interesting question. I mean, right now, um, I'm not in any, uh, any, like, labeled relationship, but, um... And so we're exploring, like, what this framework of not having (dog barking) any particular relationship structure looks like. Um, and even with, even with Whitney, who I've gone from monogamous to open, to then we separated, to now we're in this kind of unlabeled experience where we're enjoying each other and, (dog barking) um, just experiencing what it's like to have a relationship beyond expectation and beyond labels. And it's really interesting, but the experiment is just continuing, and, uh, and there's opportunities to explore and learn, and expectations do creep up and challenges still do creep up, but it seems like we're able to move through them faster now than we were when we had a structure. And it was like, the structure was almost like a Velcro wall and all of our insecurities were like tennis balls, and every time we'd lob something up, they'd get stuck.

Chris Williamson 21:34 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 21:34 You know? But now we, we're still lobbing s- our own insecurities and our own stuff up, and our own aversions and our own stuff, but it's not really sticking to anything. So we're able to kind of move through things a little bit faster.

Chris Williamson 21:45 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 21:45 But I don't know what the, I don't know what the next phase is beyond this, 'cause I'm still just right in this one right now, where this is a- another interesting structure. So, so from mono- from sing- there's single, there's monogamy, there's open relationship, then there's no relationship-

Chris Williamson 22:04 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 22:04 ... and then p- perhaps there's even celibacy. That's something that I'm contemplating as well, like a, a, a longated period of celibacy-

Chris Williamson 22:11 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 22:11 ... to see what that's like. What is it like when you remove that ex- you know, sexual expression from your life and explore that? And then I don't know what the next phase beyond that would be.

Chris Williamson 22:22 That I've- I've read- (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 22:22 But I'm definitely open. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:25 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 22:25 Yeah. I, I'm really, I'm really open. And that's, I think the, that's, I think the thing that's the only message that I would give, is to just not feel like there's only one way. Just be curious, be open to explore, always be looking and asking the questions, like, "Is this serving me in the best way possible?" And, "What am I learning from this?" And that's what I'm gonna continue to do.

Chris Williamson 22:47 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 22:47 And where that takes me, you know, who knows?

Chris Williamson 22:50 Uh, I have to say, I, I did a, a conversation, um, on non-monogamy not long ago, and as a part of that, I couldn't, I couldn't help but be viscerally, uh, have visceral relac- reactions as someone explained to me the, the real finer workings of how different types of non-monogamous relationships occur. And I could feel my... I don't know whether you want to call it programming. There's a debate here about whether it's programming or whether it's in-built right. But whatever that is, that response to thinking about what would happen if you allowed someone that you cared for to, uh, at your own, um, not request, (laughs) but at your own allowance to be physical with somebody else or to have feelings for some, et cetera, et cetera, all of these different ways that it pieces together. And, um, I, I honestly think that that sounds more difficult than celibacy. But I, I haven't tried either, so I can't, (laughs) I can't speak just yet.

Aubrey Marcus 23:48 Yeah. I mean, there is, there's nothing. I mean, and I've done every different psychedelic, every different sweat lodge and, you know, a lot of different initiation rituals and different grueling workouts and different types of things. Um, founded comp- all the different things, there's nothing that's come even close to an approximation of the challenge of being in an open relationship. I mean, if you're saying you had a visceral reaction to the description of the types of things-

Chris Williamson 24:13 Of someone else doing it.

Aubrey Marcus 24:14 ... like I could... Of someone else doing it. Like, if, if I really, if I really decided to, like, break the, break open the, the walls of privacy and share the details, I mean, the... People, people get...... viscerally affect- like, really viscerally affect, because I was. I mean, I've been in places where I've been crawling around on the ground not knowing if I should vomit or cry or- or like, run or like, punch a wall. Or like, there's so much feeling. And yeah, like you said, some of it, I think, is conditioning and some of it is perhaps innate programming. Um, I think largely, if I had to put the scale, I'd say it's largely conditioning, just based upon some of the ancestral and tribal kind of, uh, arrangements that we can find in- in, you know, different groups around the world. But regardless, like, it's a brutal, brutal path. And, uh, (laughs) and it's- it's way, way, way harder than you might think, you know? 'Cause I-

Aubrey Marcus 25:16 I-

Chris Williamson 25:16 Well, I mean, in- in- in your book you say about it, right? Dry retching on the floor for however ma- like, half an hour-

Aubrey Marcus 25:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:21 ... or- or longer or however lo- long it was. Like, and it- the- the maddest thing was, uh, it doesn't surprise me at all.

Aubrey Marcus 25:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:31 Incredibly challenging. Incredibly challenging.

Aubrey Marcus 25:34 Yeah. (laughs) Yeah, that's- that's to say the least. But incredibly beautiful too, you know? And that's the- that's the thing, because through all those challenges, that's parts of yourself that you're breaking open so that you can re-heal. You know, it's like if a bone- if a bone forms wrong, you know, you have to actually re-break it for it to form to- like, correctly, so that you're anatomically correct. Like, some parts of our ego have been formed wrong, and so you have- almost have to like, re-break the bone of the ego to then le- allow it to heal in its proper way. But the re-breaking of the ego over and over and over again, and the smashing of all of that, it's a- it's a hell of a process, man. But you start to get the hang of it. (laughs) You know, you start to get the hang of it. You start to realize like, "Okay, here it comes. Here comes the fucking gigantic nut kick from the universe."

Chris Williamson 26:24 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 26:25 Like, "Let me just fucking- let me hold my breath. You know, here's- my testicles are gonna be about throat-high here in a few minutes."

Chris Williamson 26:32 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 26:32 "And- and then just- this is, uh- this is the way it's gonna go." And you start to- you know, you start to just be ready to learn the lessons and know that the growth is gonna come on the other side of that. Um, but, uh, I mean, it's- it's been probably my greatest teacher, of all the things. You know, it's what's allowed me to- to learn the most about myself and heal the most of my own needs for validation and my own insecurities. And, um, I'm not like, "Hallelujah, I'm healed!" You know? But I'm a hell of a lot closer than when I

Aubrey Marcus 27:03 started.

Chris Williamson 27:03 Isn't that interesting, that one of the greatest teachers of all of the different things that you've done, all of the different, uh, experiences that you've had, hasn't been something that you've done in solitude?

Aubrey Marcus 27:15 Right. Yeah. It's been done in conjunction with- you know, with a partner, with Whitney in particular.

Chris Williamson 27:21 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 27:21 And, you know, the other relationships have taught me different things, and some of those things have been valuable. But it's the deep emotional investment that I've had in Whitney, and the challenges that have come from that deep emotional investment, um, that have really brought the greatest level of growth. I mean, stress, any type of stress, creates adaptation, and too much stress can create trauma that you don't adapt from. So like, if you overtrain in the gym, you'll actually get hurt and not get stronger. And I think we've definitely put ourselves in positions where we've- (laughs) we've fucked it up and like-

Chris Williamson 27:56 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 27:57 ... over-stressed ourselves and like, created traumatic patterns. But nonetheless, you can learn to unwind those and learn to take the space and time to heal those. Um, but I think a well-executed open relationship would have the pacing and calibration, are two of the words that they use a lot. The pacing and calibration to know that you're opening up to challenge at a rate that, you know, is actually just gonna allow you to move through pretty consistently without having to go backtrack and then unpack a lot of trauma.

Chris Williamson 28:27 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 28:27 But we were doing this kind of blind, you know? We were just kind of figuring it out as we go and-

Chris Williamson 28:31 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 28:32 ... and doing our very best. So, you know, no fault- no fault on either side. It's just, that's the way it, uh- that's the way it unfolded. But if we were gonna do it again, we'd do it a hell of a lot better than the first

Aubrey Marcus 28:43 time.

Chris Williamson 28:43 Have you ever thought about doing a- a- a course or- or contributing to a body of knowledge somehow?

Aubrey Marcus 28:50 There's gonna be- that's gonna be my third book, for sure. S- and, uh, it's gonna be about, you know, what love, you know, in- in relationship can look like, and like, how to reimagine, uh, love and relationship. And so, you know, I'm kind of holding off on that right now. Um, Whitney is completely holding that down. She's offering coaching. She's got a great platform right now, so anybody interested you can follow her at @whitnlove, W-H-I-T-N-L-O-V-E, and she's sharing all the wisdom from our relationship and offering coaching, and she has a podcast called True Sex & Wild Love with Wednesday Martin. Um, so she's really kind of diving into that right now, and I'm focused more on mindset and the hero's journey for now. Because quite frankly, you know, my- (clears throat) my own journey in learning about love is still- I'm still writing. I'm still writing my understanding. I'm still understanding what it looks like to be in this no relationship relationship. And then ultimately, like I said, I'm pretty sure that I'm gonna be engaging in a- in a period of celibacy and learning like, "Okay, what's that? What's that path look like?" And like then, ultimately, trying to put it all together. But I'm not in any position right now to say anything with any kind of definitive- (laughs) definitive wisdom, you know-

Chris Williamson 30:10 Authority.

Aubrey Marcus 30:10 ... or authority on that, because I haven't really allowed all of this to set in and explore it. Um, I can certainly offer a lot of advice from where I've been so far, uh, so the people who are, you know, interested in opening their relationship. But, you know, Whitney's been there right along with me for this whole journey and she's got a great perspective. So, kind of allowing her to take that...... thrust of information as it is now. And as mine continues to mature, um, that'll be a big focus for me in the next five years or so.

Chris Williamson 30:37 That's cool. Uh,

Chris Williamson 30:38 so getting back to our discussion on the good life, we've talked about some guiding principles and some things that people can cerebrally keep to give them a north star they're aiming toward. But anyone who's read James Clear's book this year, anyone who hasn't, please go and read Atomic Habits because it's fantastic, but he has this wonderful quote in there which says, "We do not rise to the level of our goals. We fall to the level of our systems." And I think that we need structures and habits and routines to instantiate the things that we want to do. So how do you instantiate the things that make a life good to you? What are the structures that you lay your life upon, or some habits and some routines that assist you to ensure you're doing that?

Aubrey Marcus 31:29 Well, I think you gotta take care of the body, you know. That's what Own the Day, Own Your Life, my first book was about. Like, you gotta take care of the body. Like, it's, it's the low-hanging fruit, you know. Like, if the body's out of alignment, the whole, your whole mindset's gonna be out of alignment. Your, everything's gonna be out of alignment. You're gonna be fighting an uphill battle. So handle that shit, you know. It's, it's, uh, it's, there's a lot of intricacies, but it's largely a, it's largely a solved problem, you know. Like, stop fucking eating sugar. Like, get some sleep. Move, you know, move throughout the day, you know. Get some sunlight. Like, drink some salt water. Yeah, hydrate. There you go. You know, like, (laughs) you, you're doing it. Like, take care of your shit, you know, a- and, like, get the basics, get the basics down. And it doesn't mean, you don't need fancy supplements and things like that. You can add those if you wanna improve performance and all that. But it's just about, like, handling the basics. And then from there, I think it's about a personal ethos. And that ethos is, if I see something that I'm afraid of, that, or that's something that I know that there's work that I could do, I head towards it, not away from it. And that's just a personal ethos. So that doesn't mean, like, actual danger. It doesn't mean if there's, like, a black widow spider in my shed, I'm gonna go try and touch it. You know, that's actual danger. That could hurt me, you know. Like, I'm talking about emotional fears or these things that are, that I'm afraid of exposing, some insecurities that I have. The ethos that I have, my own warrior ethos is like, "Oh, I'm scared of that. That'll be hard. Okay, I gotta go do it." And that's, again, why I'm doing, why I'm doing this im- probably gonna do this. I'm not one, I don't wanna commit 100%, but if I'm likely going to do this celibacy thing-

Chris Williamson 33:08 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 33:09 ... is just 'cause I know it's gonna be fucking hard for me.

Chris Williamson 33:11 The people on the internet-

Aubrey Marcus 33:12 And I, and-

Chris Williamson 33:12 ... the people on the internet now will have thought, there'll be something clipped out of this that's just you saying the word celibacy five times.

Aubrey Marcus 33:18 Right, I know, and they're gonna be like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:19 Uh, and the people on the internet will believe that it's that. S- to interject there, there's this quote that I really love, and you might have heard it on, m- might not before. And it's from, uh, Katrin Davidstein who's a, a CrossFit Games athlete. And, um, y- the way that she talks about discomfort is similar to yourself, and she refers to it as she says, "Lean into discomfort as if you'd invited it through the door." And I really like that analogy. The fact-

Aubrey Marcus 33:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:44 ... that as discomfort comes towards you, you lean into it. You don't shy away. You don't stand your ground. You lean into it. I really love that visual.

Aubrey Marcus 33:55 It's the only way, you know. It's like, if you run away from your discomfort and you, it's, th- that, that thing is gonna chase you down like a grizzly bear. And you know what a grizzly bear does when it catches you? It starts to eat you while you're alive, asshole first.

Chris Williamson 34:11 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 34:12 That's what a grizzly bear does. So go ahead, run away from your fears and run away from those things you're scared of, but that grizzly bear's coming. And when it gets you, it's gonna eat you asshole first.

Chris Williamson 34:21 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 34:21 Like, (laughs) so, like, s- figure it out. What, your choice, whatever you wanna do.

Chris Williamson 34:25 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 34:25 You know, keep running, keep running, keep running, or stand your ground and face it.

Chris Williamson 34:29 Yep.

Aubrey Marcus 34:30 You know? (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 34:31 Okay, so we've got look after the body. We've got this ethos of, uh, facing up to things that you're scared of. What else?

Aubrey Marcus 34:42 I would say community is another huge, huge piece, you know, like cultivating, cultivating and maintaining a healthy community, and that's people that you're comfortable being real vulnerable around and people who you can share everything and people who see you. Like, I don't think we're able or capable of doing this thing alone. It's too hard. Life is just too hard to do it all by yourself. And I think people put so much emphasis on your partner or, like, your lover or this one person, but really, I think that emphasis needs to be spread much, much wider out to your entire community. It's your community that supports you because relationships come and go, and that's why I think people are so devastated. It's like, "She was my everything." Well, you fucked up. If she was your everything, you fucked up 'cause that's, like, not a good strategy. But-

Chris Williamson 35:33 It's your trading portfolio entirely, 100% in one stock-

Aubrey Marcus 35:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:37 ... or like 90% in one stock.

Aubrey Marcus 35:39 Right. Right. Uh, but that's the fantasy and the fairy tale that we're taught. "You're my everything. You complete me." Okay, good luck. Good luck with that. You know, hope it goes perfect for you. (laughs) Don't look at the statistics 'cause it's a really risky bet you're making. You know what I'm saying? But if you have it diversified to a wide group of people that, that all share in love and vulnerability and, and things will get fucked up with them, too, you know. Like, stuff will happen with your friends, you know. Like, it's not like they're infallible. Like, even friendships sometimes go through periods of fluctuation, less commonly, so but, it happens. So, but, like, if you have a, if you have a genuine community and many points of, of people who, that you can talk to about anything, um, it's gonna help so, so much. And I think, so that, to me, is actually, you know, if we're talking, it's, it's kinda interesting because...... you know, book one is about the body, book two is about the mind and the journey of awakening your consciousness and mapping that to the hero's journey. Book three is gonna be about love and relationship, and book four is gonna be about community. 'Cause I think those are the four... Those are, like, the four pillars of, of a good life. Take care of the body, you know, understand the mind and how to open it up and look into your shadow, you know, find the way that you can align yourself to love and relationship that's in best accord with yourself, and then cultivate and build the community. And I think those are the really the... those are really the principles. And then, you know, book five (laughs) is actually gonna be about, all right, now how do we apply this, everything that we've just talked about so far, how do we apply this globally to the whole world? You know, like, how... what would a world look like if we embraced all of these principles? And that's kind of a... I imagine that being more of a utopian fiction. I'm gonna have to really sharpen my pencil to get my fiction game right. But...

Chris Williamson 37:34 I think you're going to, yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 37:36 Yeah. But that's... But that's really a really clear plan for me, and it, and it really exemplifies those things that are the most important to me in my life.

Chris Williamson 37:44 (inhales)

Chris Williamson 37:45 (exhales) It is... When you break life down into its component parts like that, it can seem so simple.

Aubrey Marcus 37:52 It typically is (laughs) . That's the thing. It's just simple but... It's simple but hard. You know, that's like the... that's the truth. Like, even the m-... Even, like, the deepest spirituality is so simple, but so hard. Like, you listen to Ram Dass's... Ram Dass's teacher. He had his, you know, Maharaja. He said one thing. He said, "Love everyone. Tell the truth." All right, that's simple. Love everyone, tell the truth. Well, that's fucking hard. Love everyone. Tell for real. Like, if you're gonna do that, that's hard, you know? And then, like, Ram Dass says, "Love everything." Not every being, but everything. I love my pain, I love my wheelchair, I love... Like, it's the eradication of preference even, because you're loving everything. Oh, well, that's simple. But fucking good luck.

Chris Williamson 38:47 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 38:47 Good luck. Pack a lunch (laughs) , 'cause that shit's not gonna be easy to get through, you know what I mean? So, I think, uh... I think a lot of the deep wisdom is, is very simple.

Chris Williamson 38:57 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 38:57 But it doesn't mean that it's easy to

Aubrey Marcus 38:59 execute.

Chris Williamson 39:00 Something that people probably get quite confused by, the fact that a lot of simple things are seen as easy day-to-day life.

Aubrey Marcus 39:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:07 Doing something simple should be easy. But as you've said there, because simplicity has no room for, or limited room for nuance, there's limited room-

Aubrey Marcus 39:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:17 ... for you to allow that ego to come in and for it to change the rules. If you had-

Aubrey Marcus 39:23 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:23 ... love everything, but it was written out, and every individual thing you had to love was stated, and the document was, like, the size of a law book-

Aubrey Marcus 39:30 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:30 ... you... there would be... there'd be slippage in between each-

Aubrey Marcus 39:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:34 ... of those things.

Aubrey Marcus 39:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 39:36 But it's not.

Aubrey Marcus 39:36 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 39:37 The simplicity is where-

Aubrey Marcus 39:38 It's every-

Chris Williamson 39:38 ... the difficulty is dr- derived from.

Aubrey Marcus 39:41 Hmm. Uh, you said that beautifully, man. That was very, very well articulated, and I think that's absolutely right. Like, there's no... It doesn't leave you ev- any, any room. Tell the truth. Love everyone. Fuck.

Chris Williamson 39:56 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 39:56 Well, what does tell the truth even mean? 'Cause I... I'm like, what... how truthful is the truth? Well, it's... The truth is the truth. Uh, I mean, we're talking capital T here, right? Like, we're not... we're not making, like, exceptions with lowercase T which is tell, like, the convenient-

Chris Williamson 40:10 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 40:10 ... you know, version of it. It's like, no, tell the truth, love everyone, you know, love everything. Like, these are... There's not a lotta room. There's not a lot, lotta room to wiggle around. And, um, (clears throat) and that's why they're so powerful.

Chris Williamson 40:24 (inhales) Talking about the truth, it's something which comes up all the time. I was doing a political podcast. I was in London on a political podcast and ended up talking about the truth and, uh, why it's so important for us. People layer a lot of, um... They layer a lot of personas, and they're able to hide the truth very successfully. I know I've done it e- incredibly well, very skillfully, uh, at some-

Aubrey Marcus 40:53 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:53 ... points in my life, and it's taken a lot of work to unpack what that truth is. I wondered whether you had any advice for someone-

Aubrey Marcus 41:02 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 41:02 ... who has potentially layered on top of their truth so many personas that they're struggling to find it anymore?

Aubrey Marcus 41:11 Well, yo- you gotta... you gotta catch onto yourself. And, like, I'm not... I'm not much different than you. I recognize how fucking slippery I am. Because, like, the ability to, like, justify and rationalize and then create a story to make this true, this "truth," quotation mark, truth-

Chris Williamson 41:29 Lower, lowercase.

Aubrey Marcus 41:30 ... seems... Yeah, (laughs) lowercase T, quotation mark, asterisk, italic, "truth"-

Chris Williamson 41:35 (laughs) Yeah, yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 41:36 ... that you're expressing, (clears throat) like, my ability to do that is really qu-... is really quite remarkable (laughs) . Like, I can be really, like, really slippery with how I can massage things and how I can project things. And, and, you know, there's some studies done that show that, like, 55% of what you're communicating is received by body language, 35% is received by tonality, and, like, less than 10% is received by the actual words that you say. So, you could even be saying the words but expressing them in an untrue way, you know, that's being manipulative. And so it's, like, you have to catch onto yourself. You have to, like, beyond your, like... like, realize, like, "Okay, I see... I see you there, Aubrey, being slippery and-"

Chris Williamson 42:21 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 42:21 "... fucking doing that thing."

Chris Williamson 42:22 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 42:23 "You know, I see you projecting this air of confidence even though your words are, you know, quite vulnerable," or vice versa. You know, like, it- it's... it... You just have to kinda catch onto yourself and realize what you're doing and, um...... that takes the eradication, first of all, of shame. Like I think, I think that's the big thing that limits us from seeing our truth and being onto ourselves, is being ashamed of the truth. And then also, we have to let go of our desire to manipulate, selfishly manipulate reality for our own interest. You know, like truth, truth is love. "Tell the truth and love everyone" is actually the same thing, you know, because you can't love someone without telling them the truth. It's not, it's a, it's a temporary, it's a temporary ameliorant. It's like giving them, it's like the loving thing to do is not to give somebody, you know, a candy bar, it's to give somebody like,

Aubrey Marcus 43:22 a healthy meal.

Chris Williamson 43:23 Do you know how many times-

Aubrey Marcus 43:24 And-

Chris Williamson 43:24 ... I use that exact analogy when I'm talking to people? And I relate it back to Jordan Peterson's "be friends with people who want the best for you." Be friends with people that want the best for you is not tell people what they want to hear.

Aubrey Marcus 43:37 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:37 It's very often, tell people what they don't want to hear. And some of my best friends, I can identify the people who have my best interests at heart, because they don't swallow my bullshit, wholesale or part sale or fucking like-

Aubrey Marcus 43:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:52 ... micron scale. They do not-

Aubrey Marcus 43:54 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:54 ... they don't l- th- they don't let me get away with it. Um, and yeah, the, uh, th- the analogy is like a child wants, uh, ice cream, to eat ice cream every night, like that's not what's good for it, but that is what it wants, but it doesn't mean that's what it should get.

Aubrey Marcus 44:08 Right. Exactly. Exactly. And it's just having the, having the patience, even if there's a little tantrum. You know, it's like, "I want ice cream for dinner," you know, and you're like, "I'm sorry, sweetie, like we're gonna have fucking chicken for dinner," (laughs) you know? And it's like, "No!" Like you have to just hold, hold that space and say, "Hmm, chicken is best."

Chris Williamson 44:30 Tonight.

Aubrey Marcus 44:30 You know what I mean? Tonight.

Chris Williamson 44:32 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 44:32 And maybe someday there'll be ice cream, you know? For sure. But like, (clears throat) that is, it is having that, the ability to, to share that with somebody and have them receive it, and to be able to withstand those temporary reactions that people might have, because you know that it's the most loving thing that you can do, 'cause it's not enabling them to continue on their own path of delusion. We have to understand that the, our purpose here is to wake up to the truth of who we are and the, the, all of the truth that's all around us, because that's all the love that's all around us too. And so, if we're all here to wake up to that truth, and we're shielding that truth from somebody, we're doing them a great disservice.

Chris Williamson 45:13 It's a lot easier to be a good friend to someone else than it is to yourself, though.

Aubrey Marcus 45:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:17 Like the perspective, the perspective that we have when talking to someone else, I recently wrote, uh, uh, an Instagram post about this, about the fact that the likelihood of you, uh, ensuring that your dog completes its course of antibiotics is over 90%. The likelihood of you ensuring that you complete your course of antibiotics is under 50%. And it tells us something very interesting about how easy it is to care for others and how difficult it is to care for ourselves. But this analogy that, uh, uh, a friend told me that stuck with me is, uh, when you're in an airplane, why are you told to put your oxygen mask on first? Because if you're suffocating, you're of very little use to everybody else around you.

Aubrey Marcus 46:06 That's true. Yeah. "To be of service, you have to be fit for service." That's what my late spiritual teacher, Don Howard, used to always say. And that's the, that's the mastermind group that I formed too, the Fi- Fit for Service Mastermind, based along that principle. Like, you have to take care of yourself, and you have to be overflowing with your own abundance of energy, love, time, resources, everything, in order to actually be of ser- true, real service to anybody or the world, and it begins with yourself. I once had a, someone said, uh, I forget where it came from, but someone says that in a, in a healthy relationship (clears throat) , instead of serving someone from your cup, you actually serve them from the overflow that fills the saucer around the cup-

Chris Williamson 46:52 Mm-hmm.

Aubrey Marcus 46:52 ... so that no one's actually ever drinking-

Chris Williamson 46:54 (laughs)

Aubrey Marcus 46:54 ... from your own cup of your own love and your own, uh, resource and energy, but you have so much that it's always overflowing like a fountain and filling the saucer, and there's plenty to drink from the saucer, you know? And then that's like a really good metaphor, I think, for how we have to take care of ourself, 'cause the moment our cup's empty, well, we're not gonna be of any use to anybody, you know? We're, first of all, gonna be miserable, but second of all, we're not gonna be helpful to anybody else either.

Chris Williamson 47:19 It's a Jordan Petersonism as well, isn't it, to pick up the heaviest weight that you can and bear it, and then continue to do that. And you may be able to, uh, first off, carry your own weight, and then carry the weight of the people around you, and then carry the weight of your community. Um, it's this hilarious idea (laughs) that I think progressive overload is king in every domain, from strength training to mind training.

Aubrey Marcus 47:45 Hmm. (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, no doubt, man. Yeah, another great way to put it.

Chris Williamson 47:51 Um, so before we go, Aubrey, obviously we've got your book's out at the moment. I wanna know, and I'm sure a lot of people that are listening wanna know, what, what are you working on right now? Like what's a, a day in terms of projects look f- like for you?

Aubrey Marcus 48:06 Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the podcast is something that I really love, so that's The Aubrey Marcus Podcast. Um, and then the Fit for Service Mastermind I just recently mentioned, that's been, just blown away all the expectations of like forming a real community around the ideas. Um, you know, On It, of course, continues to, continues to grow and beat its drum and its message about, you know, being a little bit better tomorrow than you are today and helping the body. Um, and then, you know, I'm gonna start writing my book, uh, my next book coming up, you know, pretty soon here as well, and so that'll start to take up a lot of time. Uh, so there's always a lot of, a lot of things in the works, but...... you know, nothing, nothing too wild, and then there's the daily Instagram posts and everything that I put out on that, on that channel as well. So just, uh, just kind of doing all the things, man. Just doing all the things and just trying to learn, learn and grow.

Chris Williamson 48:59 Yeah.

Aubrey Marcus 49:00 Back to what I said at the start.

Chris Williamson 49:01 Very interestingly, we actually, I think, have been linked in. The reason that we've got this podcast happening is because of Ross, one of the guys who's in your group. And-

Aubrey Marcus 49:12 Oh, beautiful.

Chris Williamson 49:13 And, uh, episode 12 on this podcast was with mutual friend, and beautiful voice, Mr. Corey Allen.

Aubrey Marcus 49:21 Oh, nice. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:22 So Corey's been on. Um, and, yeah, man, I, I, I think one of the things that does strike me as very interesting is when someone is working incredibly hard and incredibly ruthlessly to try and sort out their own shit, and you have a, a, a very single sort of linear focus in terms of how all of these products align. You know, you see some entrepreneurs or professionals or personalities, however you want to, to name it, and you look at the portfolio of things that contribute to make up their life in terms of where they invest their time, and you think, "These are quite piecemeal here." You have something from over there and something from over there and I don't really see how this is one cohesive unit. But I, I, I can't, I can't really say that for yourself. And, uh, as well, you know, this episode is not brought to you by on it. However, the only nootropic that I've ever used, which I back-

Aubrey Marcus 50:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:18 ... is, is Alpha Brain. And that's-

Aubrey Marcus 50:20 Thanks, brother. Appreciate that.

Chris Williamson 50:22 Honestly, man, it is what I need. I haven't used it tonight because when my housemate... I was a bit tired upstairs, my housemate was like, "Oh, do you want... Why don't you have a, a coffee and an Alpha Brain?" I was like, "It's 8:00 PM. I'm not a psychopath." Like, I'm-

Aubrey Marcus 50:33 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:33 ... I'm not gonna have a coffee at 8:00 PM. Um, but, yeah, when I need, when I need that extra, that extra little kick, it, it really does help. And, you know, I think that having someone who is in your position, who is pushing a more holistic view of the mind, a more complete view of how we should progress as ourselves, I think it's, I think it's something that's very worthwhile, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you achieve over the coming years.

Aubrey Marcus 50:58 Thank you, brother. I appreciate that, man. And I always appreciate someone who has a introspection and insight and, and surprises me with their own, you know, mental machinations. So, um, keep doing what you're doing, man.

Chris Williamson 51:10 Thank you, man.

Aubrey Marcus 51:10 Doing, doing good work.

Chris Williamson 51:11 Everything that we've spoken about today, from Aubrey's book to his Instagram and his fantastic podcast, will be linked in the show notes below, of course. Aubrey, it's been awesome, man.

Aubrey Marcus 51:21 Yeah, likewise, brother.

Chris Williamson 51:25 Outdance. Ah, yeah. Oh, yeah. Outdance.