Can Women Have A Career And A Family? - Kristina Durante

1. 0:00 – 0:24

   Intro

   1. KDKristina Durante0:00

      As women start earning more, marital sa- satisfaction goes down for men and for women. As women move up the corporate ladder, they're more likely to become divorced, but that's not true for men. If women win political office, they're more likely to get d- divorce than their women counterparts who lost their political (laughs) office. The more women gain status, the more discord happens in their marriage.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:21

      Did you see the Serena Williams

2. 0:24 – 9:05

   Serena Williams’ Vogue Article

   1. CWChris Williamson0:24

      article in Vogue?

   2. KDKristina Durante0:27

      I did not.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:28

      Oh, well, let me tell you about it. So-

   4. KDKristina Durante0:30

      Please do.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:31

      ... her issue, uh, th- the article is about the fact she's now 41, she's still a top flight tennis player, and she's got one child, I think Olympia, and, uh, is now, was aware that she would have a limited window perhaps to have more children, uh, so is having to leave the sport. She had some complications medically after the last child, um, perhaps slightly brought on by being an elite athlete. I don't know the sort of stresses that that puts your body under, the kind of internal changes or external changes. Um, and then there's a couple of sections here. "So believe me, I never wanted to have to choose between tennis and a family," she wrote. "I don't think it's fair if I were a guy, I wouldn't be writing this because I'd be out there playing and winning while my wife was doing the physical labor of expanding our family." I have to presume that she means the literal physical labor of expanding the family. "'Maybe I'd be more of a Tom Brady if I had that opportunity,' Williams wrote, pointing that the football legend Brady, 45, who has three children and played in the NFL for 22 seasons before announcing his retirement in February, before changing his mind and announcing that he would return for a 23rd season just one month later."

   6. KDKristina Durante1:34

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:34

      "Ahead of her 41st birthday, Williams realized she had a narrow window to get pregnant again. 'I definitely don't want to be pregnant again as an athlete,' she said. 'These days, if I have to choose between building my tennis resume and building a family, I'd choose the latter.'" I thought that was very interesting.

   8. KDKristina Durante1:50

      Yeah, that is interesting, uh, especially since I think Tom Brady's, um, unretirement is causing discord in his own marriage from, you know, at least the, what the gossip is, right? Uh, but, you know, there is something to that. Women do often have to make a trade-off that men, you know, typically don't have to. This is kind of a new thing with, you know, women being able to, you know, ha- be the Serena Williams of the world, or, you know, um, the, uh, um, blanking on the name of, you know, CEO of a company, um, and we kind of have to figure out, like, what are we gonna excel at? Are we gonna excel at our careers? Are we gonna excel as a parent? 'Cause it's really hard to do both very well at the same time. Um, and so, you know, historically, that has sort of been the, the contract that we used to enter into through marriage, is, you know, the, the, the male works and the female stays at home and runs the household, which is a lot of work. And what f- I find really interesting is now that women have made tremendous strides into the workplace, they're finding themselves no better off in terms of household, uh, you know, th- running of the household and things that they have to do to make, you know, the household run. All of that unpaid labor isn't going away. It's, uh, it's still there. And what we find through the research is that women who, working women actually do more housework than women who are stay-at-home moms.

   9. CWChris Williamson3:28

      What, what's the statistics behind that? How does that work?

   10. KDKristina Durante3:31

       Uh, well, we just sort of re- get them to report how many hours a day they spend on various, you know, things, er, activities around the house, and what I think is happening is that women, working women feel more guilt surrounding, you know, not doing what's typically, you know, thought of as, you know, helping around the house. And, um, and, you know, they're actually doing more, uh, and more housework than, you know, that was done even in the, even in the '60s. Now, that has a lot to do with kids too, 'cause kids require a lot of, uh, parental involvement now than I think was happening, you know, certainly in the '50s and '60s with scheduling and all that kinda stuff.

   11. CWChris Williamson4:10

       What scheduling?

   12. KDKristina Durante4:12

       Uh, well, now there's more parent involvement in, you know, even playdates. You gotta call up the other parent, you gotta figure out, you know, who's volunteering for this and, and that and the other thing. And I think there's, you know, and kids are involved in so many extracurricular activities, um-

   13. CWChris Williamson4:26

       Rather than just letting them to go play stick ball out in the street.

   14. KDKristina Durante4:29

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:29

       Oh, okay.

   16. KDKristina Durante4:30

       Just, "Come by six," and, you know. So-

   17. CWChris Williamson4:32

       Yeah.

   18. KDKristina Durante4:33

       ... so-

   19. CWChris Williamson4:33

       So this is perhaps a, a byproduct not of helicopter parenting, but of, uh, a, an overly observant parental style?

   20. KDKristina Durante4:40

       Yeah, I think so. And I think, I think that part of it is, you know, helicopter parenting, um, that we're doing now, uh, more than we ever had before. You know, we just kind of, you know, let our kids run around, uh, and that's a whole nother topic I guess to talk about, is, you know, how we manage our kids' lives now in a way that we never had, you know, before.

   21. CWChris Williamson5:03

       Going back to what you said at the very beginning, it's, uh, a novel situation that we found ourselves in where women can have the choice between being a-

   22. KDKristina Durante5:10

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson5:10

       ... carer or having a career.

   24. KDKristina Durante5:12

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson5:12

       And, uh, f- I think it's the UK statistics say that more women are childless at 30 than not now in the UK, so 50.1% of women by 30 do not have children, so they are in the, the bigger age bracket.

   26. KDKristina Durante5:24

       Right.

   27. CWChris Williamson5:24

       I also saw Joyce Benenson's newest paper quotes just offhand, "Half of all women in the world are married by 18."

   28. KDKristina Durante5:35

       Half?

   29. CWChris Williamson5:36

       Half of all women in the world are married by the age of 18.

   30. KDKristina Durante5:39

       Wow. So-
3. 9:05 – 18:16

   Women Deny Being the Breadwinner

   1. CWChris Williamson9:05

      Did you look at the fact that women who ... women deny the fact that they're the primary breadwinner even when they are one?

   2. KDKristina Durante9:13

      Yes. So, (laughs) in a survey of married couples where all of 'em were involved in a situation where the woman was the breadwinner, s- over 60% said that that was not true. So, so in a survey where y- we know this about people, people wanna report in a socially desirable way. So that's a problem in, in most, you know, experiments that use surveys. Uh, but it was interesting because they were pre-selected, uh, sample of, of individuals where r- researchers knew that th- these were, you know, couples where the women, the woman was the breadwinner and they didn't want to report it that that was actually c- the case. So, over 60% said that they were not, that it was the man, or that they were equal.

   3. CWChris Williamson10:05

      Well, culturally at the moment, are we not seeing a lot of female empowerment, you can have it all, be a boss bitch, clap back, you know, compete with the men, more women go two-to-one, female to males completing four-year US college degrees by 2030?

   4. KDKristina Durante10:18

      Oh, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson10:19

      1,111 pounds more earned by women between the ages of 21 and 29 in the UK.

   6. KDKristina Durante10:24

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson10:24

      Like, i- it, it seems surprising to me that women would under-report the fact that they are the primary breadwinners when culturally, at least-

   8. KDKristina Durante10:32

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson10:32

      ... what the media perhaps says, this isn't necessarily emergent bottom-up-

   10. KDKristina Durante10:36

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson10:36

       ... this isn't what's happening in terms of norms.

   12. KDKristina Durante10:38

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson10:38

       But there does, there does seem to be a pretty big push for women to become more masculinized in that way.

   14. KDKristina Durante10:43

       Yeah. I mean, I guess it's ... so, (laughs) so that's the haunting of sort of the traditional norms that still are not ... even though there is a lot of movement towards, you know, uh, women, female empowerment. It's just, it's really hard to give. So, uh, s- s- so a lot of women still want a partner who is at, you know, sort of at their own level, so making as much as them or more. Um, and, you know, they want a counterpart, and so I could see where, you know, that still ... so, so the reflection of women not wanting to say, "Yeah, I'm the breadwinner," like, th- it is, it is the haunting of that, you know, sort of traditional values that we used to have. Like, they're, they've been around for so long (laughs) where, where you, where we had this, uh, system of, you know, women having this obligatory investment in children and men going off to do other things. I mean, you know, women couldn't go off to war because then children would die and so would the l- you know, any genes that supported a penchant for waging war in women. Men were free to go do that because they weren't having the babies and, you know, and, and that's something that we do know that was happening, women were having the babies, men were not having the babies. And so, you know, all of our, you know, female ancestors going, you know, back in time, now this is before birth control and so we still ... you know, so if you were a woman th- and you were sexually active, you were probably a mother, most certainly-Um, uh, and so, uh, we didn't have the, the luxuries of, you know, outsourcing any care for most of human existence. So, all of the stuff that's happening in our modern world now is really new and our brains just haven't caught up. So, we have part of our brain that can say, you know, women empowerment, and that's kind of, you know, we, we kind of have to, you know, push the social norms forward and then, you know, we learn what we're valued and, and it, and it can cause change. But, you know, this, this, this, the, the part of our brain that can think about this stuff intellectually is scaffolded onto, you know, deeper brain systems that have just been around for, you know, millions of years, and it's a hard override sometimes.

   15. CWChris Williamson13:03

       Do careers make women happy?

   16. KDKristina Durante13:07

       Yes. So, I would say it also depends on the career. I would say it depends on the job. Um, uh, I think that, you know, women face more of that mating parent- not mating parenting, but, like, sort of status-driving parenting conflict. Um, you know, they, the career/family trade-off conflict, I think that women experience it more than men (sighs) do. Uh, but, but when women are able to, you know, take time for themselves and, and pursue what they're passionate about, that increases their overall wellbeing. Um, but, you know, women experience a lot of burnout. Women experience a lot of stress because there are these, you know, demands on them. You know, I mean, it's really-

   17. CWChris Williamson13:55

       Well, someone needs to, someone needs to give birth to the child, right? Someone needs to do that.

   18. KDKristina Durante14:00

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson14:00

       The, the bit that kind of got me a little bit about Serena's, um, discussion there, the bit of, left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth, was when she said about labor, d- doing the physical labor. It's like, look-

   20. KDKristina Durante14:11

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson14:11

       ... like, men can't get pregnant. That's, that is an issue that we have.

   22. KDKristina Durante14:15

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson14:15

       I understand that there are some disparities. Men think about sex more than women. Should we say that the fact that women don't think about sex as much as men do is an imbalance that needs to be corrected so that men can be made more happy in the world? I, I don't know. My point being that, especially for the first couple of years, I, I don't have kids, but I'm around some friends that do, and the dad is a spare part for the first two years.

   24. KDKristina Durante14:39

       Mm-hmm. Sure.

   25. CWChris Williamson14:39

       The mother is the one that, that has more of an innate sense about what the child needs. The mother is the one that the child seems to pine for a lot more. They're the ones that have a better bond. They're the ones that are able to deal with crying and nappy changes and, and care, and they have this intuition.

   26. KDKristina Durante14:53

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson14:53

       That is an i- that is an imbalance between the capacities of men and the capacities of women. I mean, Serena's worth several hundred million dollars. I'm sure that she can find a perfectly, uh, successful-

   28. KDKristina Durante15:04

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson15:04

       ... team of nannies that could-

   30. KDKristina Durante15:06

       Mm-hmm.
4. 18:16 – 23:44

   Is There a Female Impulse to Have a Child

   1. CWChris Williamson18:16

      that. Is there a natural impulse for women to want to have children at all?

   2. KDKristina Durante18:23

      That is a really great question, and, uh, (sighs) so yeah, I think-

   3. CWChris Williamson18:30

      Just to, just to clarify the question, obviously, the, the, the point is women could want to have sex and a byproduct of having sex-

   4. KDKristina Durante18:36

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson18:36

      ... would be having children.

   6. KDKristina Durante18:37

      Yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:37

      Like, what we talked about here is that once you have a child, there is a maternal cascade-

   8. KDKristina Durante18:42

      Right.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:43

      ... uh, that gets flicked on and-

   10. KDKristina Durante18:44

       Right.

   11. CWChris Williamson18:44

       ... is very difficult p- perhaps to stop.

   12. KDKristina Durante18:46

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson18:46

       And not only continues through child number one, potentially two, three, four, and so on, but then also continues you into grandmotherhood as well-

   14. KDKristina Durante18:53

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson18:53

       ... and all the rest of it. My, uh, the, the point that I'm interested in is prior to having the child-

   16. KDKristina Durante18:58

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:58

       ... is there an impulse to have children?

   18. KDKristina Durante19:01

       (smacks lips) So, so yes and no. (laughs)

   19. CWChris Williamson19:06

       (laughs)

   20. KDKristina Durante19:07

       So, here, so women are complicated because we have two hormones when we're naturally cycling, so on birth control is a whole other ball of wax, but, um, so women have, you know, sex hormones. We have test- testosterone, but the primary one in women is, um, I shouldn't even say primary one 'cause, you know, we have, we have a s- significant amount of testosterone, but, but across the cycle, you know, estrogen increases and then it, you know, dips, dips down again, and then progesterone increases. And we're preparing our body every month for pregnancy. And progesterone is more of a nurturing hormone that will increase progressively if the, the woman becomes pregnant within that cycle. And so, (smacks lips) you know, what, so I, um, (smacks lips) used to do a lot of work looking at women's changes and b- women's behavior across the cycle. And so when looking at desire to have a child, even things like would you get an abortion, really heavy questions that, you know, I tend to steer away from now 'cause they're such hot buttons, but what we find is that when women are ovulating, so this is a time when, um, you know, estrogen has just increased and it's, you know, they're really interested, uh, their mor- their sexual desire is increased, and what dips down is all the parenting stuff, so they're not interested in children at all, at all when they're ovulating. Now, when that's finished and th- their body is preparing to potentially become pregnant, then that interest creeps up a little bit. So, so to answer your question, um, before women have babies, are they more interested in having children than men? I bet you if we just randomly sampled, we'd find a, a sex difference there. But because women's prof- w- women kind of cycle in and out of, you know, high hormones that do two different things, one's mating and sex, one's parenting, um, that, you know, it, it, it, it, it kinda depends. So yeah, you're right, like, we don't need, um, an interest in children to get them. We just need an interest in sex. But once women become pregnant, that's when, you know, nature says, "All right. Time to, time to do the caregiving, time to, time to become more nurturing and wanna do the, you know, the nesting." And we set up for the baby and we become interested in watching, um, you know, Bringing Home Baby and we wonder why our partners aren't interested in it, and they're not reading all the books that we want them to read because this is a big deal, this, so, so it sounds like then it's a complete, (snaps fingers) you know, shift.

   21. CWChris Williamson21:37

       So would you say perhaps that men and women diverge a lot more in their, um, behavior and their predisposition upon the point at which m- women get pregnant? I imagine that that must cause-

   22. KDKristina Durante21:46

       Yes.

   23. CWChris Williamson21:46

       ... a little bit of, um, (smacks lips) uh, friction in-

   24. KDKristina Durante21:51

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson21:51

       ... in, in marriages, especially where the, uh, man and woman perhaps were very similar for a long time, and then there is this big cascade of hormones that gets released. I've also heard that toward the back end of pregnancy that women can actually feel more turned off or even s- partially disgusted by the smell of their male partner, and they're more attracted to the smell of their own kin-

   26. KDKristina Durante22:15

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson22:16

       ... so their genetic lineage, and this again is, "Look, I'm very, very close, I'm, to giving birth. I'm very, very vulnerable. I need to be-"

   28. KDKristina Durante22:23

       Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson22:23

       "... with someone that I know is no physical threat to me." Uh, there's also-

   30. KDKristina Durante22:26

       Yeah.
5. 23:44 – 31:57

   Behavioural Change during Ovulation Cycles

   1. CWChris Williamson23:44

      I heard that the behavior change across women's ovulatory cycle has come under quite a lot of fire and criticism recently. What's your, what's your thoughts on that? I know you've done a lot of work here.

   2. KDKristina Durante23:55

      So, I think the criti- criticism comes from, you know, how do you, how do you f- how are we calculating the cycle and how are we estimating fertility? Because for a long time, that varied. It, it was almost like it varied by researcher. And so there was a lot of criticism about having such flexibility with how you calculate it means that you can just sort of figure out where your effect that you wanna show sits...... in all of these different ways and maybe one of them works and you can publish a paper on it. Um, so there was a big push to come to a consensus f- with how are we gonna be estimating fertility? Well, y- the best way is to really just go in and, and measure day-by-day hormonal profiles and, you know, as you, you know, clinically and then figure that out, as opposed to, like, having a researcher estimate the cycles and so forth. Um, but, you know, any time ... So there's a lot of stereotypes that surround women and hormones. Um, women are hormonal, women, you know, don't make 'em cry. They shouldn't, you know, they shouldn't be d- you know, holding political office 'cause maybe they're gonna be on their period and they're cranky and this and the other. And, uh, and so because of those stereotypes, it's really difficult to study changes in women's behavior across the cycle because you do get ... I've gotten personally a lot of pushback, uh, on looking at behavioral shifts, uh, related to, you know, shifts in hormones on, you know, on, on, on items that are issues that, you know, are, are pretty sensitive, so like, political preference and, um ...

   3. CWChris Williamson25:35

      Oh, yeah. Didn't, didn't you put something out that CNN had a problem with to do with Obama-

   4. KDKristina Durante25:40

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson25:40

      ... and voting?

   6. KDKristina Durante25:41

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson25:41

      Tell us that.

   8. KDKristina Durante25:42

      Yeah. So, so first of all men's hormones influence all this stuff too.

   9. CWChris Williamson25:47

      (laughs) Look-

   10. KDKristina Durante25:48

       So, you know ...

   11. CWChris Williamson25:48

       ... Christine, you don't need to give another caveat, right?

   12. KDKristina Durante25:50

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson25:50

       You're among friends here.

   14. KDKristina Durante25:51

       Okay. Uh, yes. And, you know, that was, that was ... I, I should have been prepared for it. I wasn't prepared for the pushback. So what had happened with that is I started seeing little shifts in, in, in my data in women's religiosity, so just general questions that we just had as part of, you know, general surveys that we would give women like, "How much do you believe in God?" Uh, and then it would like, there would be a, a, a dip at ovulation, like they believed less. You know, I'm like, "That's so weird." And that's kind of how we started following up on it, was looking at, uh, women's religious views. Um, and they would loosen a little bit. So we're not talking like, "I'm a devout Catholic and then I'm ovulating and now I'm an atheist." These are just like tiny shifts but we pick 'em up because it's the same woman serving as her own control throughout the cycle and that has a lot of statistical power. So even if you just become, eh, you know, if you're answering on a scale one through nine and you're at an eight and you come down to a seven, that's gonna pick up as something, something's go- shifting inside of you. And so from there, you know, as a young scholar, I was like, "Oh my God, this is probably having major implications for, for even political views, especially the social political views that have sort of like, um, you know, the, the, the, the, the s- sort of sexual undertones to them, like wanting to control people's sexuality or punish for different mating strategies and stuff like that. Uh, and so that's where I took it into looking at social political, um, orientation and finding that it was kind of, um, similar, um, uh, uh, for single women at least in my data. And then I thought, "Well, this is gonna come into play." And it just happened that, you know, Obama was running against Mitt Romney and they were both relatively attractive men, so I could ... It was kind of like a control for that 'cause they're both tall and attractive. And, uh, and, and I ran a survey and asked these social political questions and calculated the fertility. It was a cross-sectional, so wherever a woman was on the day that I did this huge survey, and I asked them to, uh, who are they gonna vote for? And we found that when single women were ovulating versus when they were not, this was, they were more likely to ... Well, they became a lot more, um, liberal and more likely to vote for Obama, but the reverse was true for women who were in committed relationships. So they became a bit more conservative and-

   15. CWChris Williamson28:28

       When they were ovulating?

   16. KDKristina Durante28:29

       Yeah, when they were ovulating and, and more likely to vote for Mitt Romney. So again, ovulation, uh, estrogen is the sex hormone that's high and it's shifting these, you know, views, and so there must be some underlying sexual strategy implication for what's, for what's going on. Um-

   17. CWChris Williamson28:47

       What do you think that is?

   18. KDKristina Durante28:50

       Well, it's like we really want our attitudes and our behaviors to be as aligned as possible, so if our behavior is one thing, our attitude is, we're gonna shift our attitude to match it. So, um, you know, for women in relationships ... So we don't ... So the answer is, I don't really know for sure, but (laughs) here's what I think is going on. Um, you're really interested in sex more so at ovulation than any other time in the month, and so when you're thinking a lot about sex it's really hard to also think about God for, for, for many women. Um, so w- you know ... So for single women it's a little bit easier to understand because, you know, they're free to think about sex and, and, and have sex with a partner that they can optimize mate choice with. Women can't really optimize mate choice who are in marriages unless that is their, you know, partner, uh, and, um, and they're tending to become more conservative, I think, because that's the relationship that they're in is a mated relationship.

   19. CWChris Williamson29:54

       Would there be potentially something around wanting to control other women's, uh, sexuality, like intrasexual competition for mates-

   20. KDKristina Durante30:04

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson30:04

       ... at this?

   22. KDKristina Durante30:04

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson30:04

       But I would have thought that that would have been higher among the women that hadn't yet found a mate. I thought that they would have wanted to control the sexuality of other women more when they don't have a mate that's locked down than when they do.

   24. KDKristina Durante30:15

       Yeah. Um, that's, you know, that's an interesting question. Um, one of the interpretations that we had for the women in relationships was just that. It's punishing promiscuous women because you've, you've kind of ...... have a, a steady stream of resources. You've got a partner and, uh, women who are single represent a threat to that. Now, you know, we live-

   25. CWChris Williamson30:37

       Oh, so you're invested in the market more?

   26. KDKristina Durante30:39

       (sighs) Yeah. And so, I think that, yeah, so they're like, "Abortion, yes. Same-sex marriage, no." I mean, even though... So these things are tangentially related to sexual strategies.

   27. CWChris Williamson30:48

       Mm-hmm.

   28. KDKristina Durante30:48

       Even like drug use, you know, so drug u- you, you know, that, that, they didn't want, you know, marijuana to be legalized, you know, these women in relationships. So, I think it's trying to lock down the threat, the, the behavi- you know, to punish the behavior of all those women out there who are threats to, to, to, to what they have. Um, (smacks lips) now, you know, and but, and, and so, yes, single women are s- you know, are still competitive, but I think that, um, you know, they're on the hunt for-

   29. CWChris Williamson31:17

       Well, they've got less skin in the game, right?

   30. KDKristina Durante31:19

       ... the resources. Yeah. They've got less skin in the game, um, because, uh, you know, you know, if you lose a husband to one of these, uh, women, um, and y- yeah. I mean, we didn't look at it... It'd be interesting to look at it even outside of the cycle, and I, and, and some- somebody might have looked at this, um, you know. So, you kind of just align yourself with the values that are, um, uh, you know, associated with your way of life, um, and, uh, and protecting that.
6. 31:57 – 39:26

   How Careers Disturb Partnerships

   1. CWChris Williamson31:57

      Okay, so go- going back to the, um, (smacks lips) relative, uh, career dynamics within couples, men and women. Vincent Harenum, who you might be familiar with, he's been on this show before, he had some really interesting statistics I just wanna give you here around, um, financial prospects and mate desirability and stuff. Women valued good financial prospects in a mate roughly twice as much as men did. This gender difference has not changed. In fact, in a 2014 Pew Research survey reported that 78% of unmarried women placed a high premium on finding a spouse with a steady job. Only 48% of men shared this view. One study found that marriages where the wife out-earned the husband were 50% more likely to end in divorce. Another study also found that men who were not the primary breadwinner were more likely to use erectile dysfunction meditation, uh, medication (laughs) meditation-

   2. KDKristina Durante32:42

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson32:42

      ... uh, relative to, relative to men that were. Uh, I've also seen statistics around women who are the primary breadwinner faking more orgasms, reporting less sexual satisfaction. So, for all that-

   4. KDKristina Durante32:55

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:55

      ... it's well and good offering women the opportunity to try and have it all, to be able to do both, it seems like a zero-sum game, at least in part, or a closer to zero-sum game than a positive-sum game. And this is the, this is the, the fundamental issue of trade-offs, right? You-

   6. KDKristina Durante33:14

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson33:14

      Having it all is not possible. Everybody has to make trade-offs. And it seems like i- i- if men help women and that causes a relationship to be more likely to fail, w- what are we doing here?

   8. KDKristina Durante33:29

      If men help women do what? Be- have a job?

   9. CWChris Williamson33:32

      To, to, y- to f- to focus more onto their career, if they push them across. But in so doing, they basically hamstring themselves to be on a ticking time clock. I've also seen, uh, William Castella was telling me that, uh, hypergamy, there is a little bit of data showing that hy- hypergamy is reducing, but it's reducing directly proportionally inline with female infidelity, but not male infidelity. So, yeah. Wild.

   10. KDKristina Durante33:55

       Yeah. So, (sighs) so yes, this is a conundrum, but, you know, so many women, you know, (sighs) so, uh, it's a, it's, it's a hard subject to talk about, because I personally am a huge proponent, proponent of women building wealth, because I think it equals freedom. Uh, and that brings a lot of value with it. But yes, it does disturb partnerships. There's no way around that. So, you're right. As women start earning more, marital se- satisfaction goes down for men and for women. And, you know, as, there's, there's, you know, I... That's really interesting, the data that you were talking about. I know that we had dug some up for a paper that we were writing looking at, you know, as, as women move up the corporate ladder, they're more likely to be- come divorced, but the, that's not true for men. If women win political office, uh, they're more likely to get a divorce than the women counterparts who lost their political office. (laughs) You know?

   11. CWChris Williamson34:51

       (laughs) Oh my God.

   12. KDKristina Durante34:51

       So, it just like, the more women gain status, the more discord happens in their, their marriage. And, you know, I guess that's, that's no big shocker. So, like how do you get around that? I mean, it, there are many relationships out there. You'd have to be like, (smacks lips) you know, you are, you know, the, you know, Michael Dell and you help, you know, your wife get, uh, she's never gonna be at your level, so that's not gonna be a problem. It's more of, like the sort of like, you know, mid-manager level (laughs) you know, problems when w- you're, you know, like when you have dual couples that are, you know, s- you know, fighting for... That's another thing. Fighting for time for your career.

   13. CWChris Williamson35:31

       Yeah. Well, I mean, here's another element. W- why do you think it is that women who earn a lot of money want a man that earns a lot of money?

   14. KDKristina Durante35:39

       (laughs) Uh, well, so I think that's, um, you know, also a, a vestige that's very deeply seeded in our brain. And it, and it's hard to, it's hard to eradicate that. It almost... Like, you feel, like, so much power and value in being able to, you know, uh, uh, uh attract a man of high status. Also, you have more in common with that person, or maybe you feel like you do, or you feel like you're more attracted to those kind of men. That doesn't go away, uh, as a woman gain- gains higher in status. And so, you know, I know that, um, you know, there's folks that say, "Oh, well, you know, women are gonna have to start going for, you know, blue-collar guys who just make a lot of money and they're a plumber." And, um, and, you know, again, we have that part of our brain that might be able to do a couple of, you know, gymnastics, mental gymnastics and, and come to, to that. But it's, it's, it's really difficult. So, that...... you know, wanting someone who is your counterpart or even higher than you in status. I-It's, it's pretty down deep inside of our brain, and so, you know, can we, can we overcome it? Yeah. How do we overcome it? I, uh, I think, like, the most highest status men in the world are gonna have to start doing laundry, and we're gonna have to see it, you know? And they're gonna have to start taking parental leave to take care of their kids, and we're gonna have to see it, you know? So-

   15. CWChris Williamson36:55

       So, what, what you're, what you're saying here is that the men that hold the highest status that cascade down from there, the social norms that other men follow that tell us what is highly regarded, what is held in high status-

   16. KDKristina Durante37:06

       Yes.

   17. CWChris Williamson37:06

       ... need, need to be setting an example by doing things which affords men who are s- struggling to compete with their female mates earning, education, status potential, it allows them to be put on a pedestal for doing things that would have been typically more domestic.

   18. KDKristina Durante37:23

       Right. So, it's-

   19. CWChris Williamson37:24

       I, so I, I think that may be a difficult ask.

   20. KDKristina Durante37:28

       Yeah. (laughs) I, I think it's a, I think it is, um, I think 'cause you, you're saying it's a difficult ask because men aren't gonna wanna do that stuff. And if it-

   21. CWChris Williamson37:37

       Especially the men at the top.

   22. KDKristina Durante37:38

       Yeah. And if it is, it's a stage, like George Clooney's doing laundry today, um, you know-

   23. CWChris Williamson37:43

       (laughs) For a photo op.

   24. KDKristina Durante37:44

       ... in, in People Magazine.

   25. CWChris Williamson37:45

       Yeah. (laughs)

   26. KDKristina Durante37:45

       (laughs) Um, and then, I don't know, maybe there needs to be that. Maybe companies can mandate their leadership team take family leave. So, there are things that can happen, and yeah, I don't think men are gonna be lining up for, you know, laundry or whatever, but I could see that changing, you know, women. Yeah, so it's like, I, I can't get George Clooney, but I want someone who's like him, and he's a guy who does laundry.

   27. CWChris Williamson38:12

       Mm-hmm.

   28. KDKristina Durante38:12

       So, that's acceptable, and I'm still attracted to my mate who is going around doing this in my house.

   29. CWChris Williamson38:18

       We are up against a, a serious God's eye coordination problem here, aren't we?

   30. KDKristina Durante38:22

       (laughs)
7. 39:26 – 51:23

   Why Women Chase Bad Boys

   1. CWChris Williamson39:26

      right? Okay, so I know that you've done, you've done research on bad boys. Women, why are women still chasing bad boys? Leonardo DiCaprio, uh, John Mayer.

   2. KDKristina Durante39:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson39:35

      And do women's preferences for bad boys change over time as they age?

   4. KDKristina Durante39:40

      Oh, that's interesting. Um, so yeah, when, when we say bad boy, I mean, that's like a, you know, a moniker that we use, I guess, to mean somebody who's really socially dominant and, you know, charismatic, and, you know. I always use George Clooney, but I know he's like so dated because anybody I mention that to is like, "Oh, he's really old now."

   5. CWChris Williamson39:59

      Yeah. Who's that?

   6. KDKristina Durante40:00

      Any student is like, "Oh, he's old." Well, who can I use? I don't know, but, you know, just sort of like, you know, thinking about the classic, you know, um, rebel without a cause type of a guy. I mean, (sighs) like think about all the movies and the songs and the metal bands. I mean, these guys are sexy.

   7. CWChris Williamson40:18

      But more than that-

   8. KDKristina Durante40:19

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson40:19

      ... it's, there's something evolutionarily put in there as well.

   10. KDKristina Durante40:21

       There's something evolutionarily there. So, social dominance was, it bought you a lot over the course of human history, and it bought you a lot of status. And if you were a risk taker, you know, that bought you a lot. Um, you were really good at protection. You were really good at finding... So, all of these are sort of, like, proxies for, like, estimations about how good you might be in terms of, um, yes, getting resources, but yes, and yes, your status, um, but, you know, if we talk about our most anciently evolved attraction systems, it's indirect genetic benefits. And then when hormones-

   11. CWChris Williamson41:00

       What's, what's that mean?

   12. KDKristina Durante41:01

       That means genes. So if, you know, this is, this is the top dog guy, and if I have a, you know, I'm attracted to him, so we don't have to think, "If I have a baby with him, my son's gonna have those genes."

   13. CWChris Williamson41:16

       Sexy son.

   14. KDKristina Durante41:16

       Like, we don't really think... Yeah, but it's just, like, that increased attraction. Like, you are just, um, programmed to optimize mate choice. And so, that's why we find these, like, devil may care guys. So now, you know, is it, is it as valuable in our, you know, nowadays? I don't know. That's a question that maybe we can talk about, but it certainly was ancestrally. These are g- the guys that were the first ones up on the hill when we needed to conquer, you know (laughs) , another group. But you know, so, you know, and then, but these guys also don't make the best husbands in the world. So, often women do have to make a trade-off between, you know, different features in a mate that they value.

   15. CWChris Williamson41:56

       Didn't you find out though that women looked at bad boys, and that they did think that they would be better fathers?

   16. KDKristina Durante42:06

       Yeah, for them. So (laughs) , yes. So, uh, yeah, this is one of my favorite studies I ever ran because we hired an actor, and he was just amazing because he played both roles. He, the, the, the-

   17. CWChris Williamson42:17

       He pretended he was a twin, right?

   18. KDKristina Durante42:19

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson42:19

       (laughs)

   20. KDKristina Durante42:20

       He was, like, superb at it, and we had a Hollywood screenwriter write a bad boy, and we had a Hollywood screenwriter write a, kind of a nerd, a shy, standoffish kinda guy. And-Yeah. You know, (laughs) when women were imagining ... So, they were talking to this guy thinking he was a prospective partner for them, like they might date. And so then when they're, like, thinking about themselves with this guy, they did, when they were ovulating, report that, "Oh, my God. I could totally see him doing my dishes and he'd probably be a great dad." And so it's like these, you know, rose-colored glasses came on, especially when it came to partner skills. So, it wasn't like, "Oh, yeah, when I'm ovulating I think he's gonna be a better guitar player, or a better piano player, or nicer to his grandma." It was like, you know, "He's gonna be a better partner for me overall." So, yeah. So, but that's- that's kind of like-

   21. CWChris Williamson43:11

       What ... Sorry, outside of ovulating, were these women, or were other women not seeing the bad boy as the preferential carer? Would they have seen the nerd?

   22. KDKristina Durante43:22

       So, the ... (sighs) I'd have to r- ... I don't remember these. So, so, so it's like the stable guy, we always kind of want those qualities at some level, but, um, it was- it wasn't like they were totally turned off by the bad guy, or bad boy guy at-

   23. CWChris Williamson43:39

       Mm-hmm.

   24. KDKristina Durante43:40

       ... you know, at lower fertility, um, we just saw the-

   25. CWChris Williamson43:42

       But that's the- that's the dangerous element, right?

   26. KDKristina Durante43:44

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson43:44

       Like this is where, um, some of the redder corners-

   28. KDKristina Durante43:48

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson43:48

       ... of the internet find, uh, kernels of truth that they can latch onto that-

   30. KDKristina Durante43:53

       Right.
8. 51:23 – 1:01:12

   Female Consumer Behaviour

   1. CWChris Williamson51:23

      You did a ton of work around buying behavior, what consumer behavior, what women buy and why they do it and stuff. If someone has never thought about, I don't even know what you call it, gendered buying? Uh, if someone's never considered this, uh, w- why do b- women buy the things that they buy? What, what is there to know here?

   2. KDKristina Durante51:42

      Well, that's a really broad question. And so, my first, I guess, series of studies that I looked at women's consumer behavior was looking at their be- consumer behavior across the ovulatory cycle, because, um, you know, these fundamental motives that we have, um, in life, um, mating, get status, um, have kids, um, protect yourself from disease. These are all funda-bundle, um, motives. And, um, when women are ovulating, uh, like we were talking about before, they're, they're really interested... Their sexual desire goes up. So then they, you know, they, they wanna look... I, I thought, "Well, if their sexual desires is up, maybe they wanna look sexier." And so, the first study I ever did was looking at women's clothing preferences ac- across the ovulatory cycle. And we would find these really strong differences in what women would choose to wear for themselves out of their own closet, or even just imagined in their head, or when they were shopping on a website. It was, it was just, you know, it was, it was sexier. They wanted to look more fashionable, so they were spending, you know, more money and, and choosing more items that were, you know, sexy, uh, when they were ovulating and, and less so when they were- weren't. Um, but all of these, you know, I, I always call them tools 'cause that's what products are, is tools. So, it's like, what does evolutionary psychology have to do with what we buy? And it's like, there's so many (laughs) products out there. Most products out there serve these fundamental motives that have deep evolutionary roots. So, even lipstick, you know, certainly wasn't around, uh, 10,000 years ago. But the, the motivation to buy is still a motivation that was around a long time ago and influenced by all of the factors that we're talking about like, "Who am I going to the club with? Who's in my social network?" You know, "How, you know, how do things look for me? Am I married? Am I single?" You know, all these things. And, you know, then we can, you know, we can predict how that might change, uh, women's consumption. Um, but yeah. So, you know, we got clothes. We've got, you know, all these different cosmetic procedures and skincare and-

   3. CWChris Williamson53:55

      Do women w-

   4. KDKristina Durante53:56

      ... everything.

   5. CWChris Williamson53:56

      Do women wear different types of makeup throughout their ovulatory cycle?

   6. KDKristina Durante54:00

      Yeah, they wear more makeup when they're ovulating. Um, and I think that's just... Uh, and I didn't run this study, but my colleagues did, and I think that's just a product of wanting to, you know, just feeling sexier, wanting to be more attractive, you know, wanting to optimize mate choice, you know, and, and, and, you know, being more focused on, on that, um-

   7. CWChris Williamson54:22

      Is that mediated by whether they're in a relationship or not? Do single women do this more than married women?

   8. KDKristina Durante54:26

      That's a good question, and I don't know the answer to that because I don't remember from their data. But a lot of these differences, we don't... Um, I know that I talked about a really big one with the politics, but, um, for consumer consumption, I don't find differences, even with, um, between heterosexual and lesbian women.... um, they still are showing, you know, the greater interest in, um, you know, products that w- will make them look more attractive.

   9. CWChris Williamson54:54

      What, what are the fundamental, what's the fundamental driving force of women's purchases then? Is it signals of youth and fertility because there's like bags and, and, and heels and-

   10. KDKristina Durante55:05

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson55:05

       ... other things that, I don't know what women buy, whatever that is.

   12. KDKristina Durante55:08

       That, that was gonna be my next, that... Yeah. So, for many years that was sort of the, and I guess it still is, is, is women's luxury consumption because women spend, you know, uh, women spend more on luxury than men do, uh, with the bags and the, you know, the purses and, you know, the clothes and, um, and it's... So, um, you know, it was a really, it was a conundrum because, you know, men don't know the difference between, you know, uh, Lou, Lou or, um, a Louboutin. You know, they don't know a Louboutin from a JCPenney shoes.

   13. CWChris Williamson55:39

       Neither, neither do you at the moment. (laughs)

   14. KDKristina Durante55:41

       (laughs) No. Um, so what are, you know, so why are women, you know, buying luxury if it's not for men, you know, who might it be for? And so, the original sort of f- f- past few papers that we had was about must be for intersexual competition purposes with other women. So, they're signaling to other women, signaling something, um, to other women. And it, it might just be their status to sort of, you know, show, you know, "Don't mess with me." You know, like I-

   15. CWChris Williamson56:14

       Look at all the spare resources I've got, I could wreck you.

   16. KDKristina Durante56:16

       Yeah. I mean, like and or, you know, investment from a, a partner. Um, but, you know-

   17. CWChris Williamson56:22

       Oh, so, sorry. Could that be a sign of, "This is how much my partner is invested in me, therefore you don't want to try and take him away from me because he's just spent three grand on this handbag."

   18. KDKristina Durante56:33

       Something like that. Yes, it could be that.

   19. CWChris Williamson56:35

       Ah, very interesting.

   20. KDKristina Durante56:36

       It could be that. Um, and it could just be, you know, luxury is associated with high status. And h- status buys you so much in life that we just, you know, kind of have, you know, we just go gaga for trying to get as much, you know, status and accolades and people clapping for us and, you know, that, that we can, because it used to be so valuable. It was sometimes the difference between life and death. And so, buying luxury, um, you know, the motivation might just be to associate with those people or associate yourself with the kind of people who can buy these things. And that's why, you know, they... I think all these luxury brands have, like, key chains and little, like, cheaper things that (laughs) all the rest of us can buy to just feel a little bit like we're part of that group.

   21. CWChris Williamson57:26

       We're often told about the importance of dominance hierarchy and status for men, status-seeking men, high-status men are the most attractive ones.

   22. KDKristina Durante57:33

       Mm.

   23. CWChris Williamson57:35

       What, what does status mean or how does it manifest for women?

   24. KDKristina Durante57:40

       So, I don't know that it's different for women than it is, uh, for men. Um, although, you know, yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think it's, you know, the same in terms of, you know, a dominance hierarchy. I think it's still like, "I'm, you know, I have this. I won." Um, and it works the same way. I always consider it, you know, sort of the same in men and women, and maybe it manifests differently. Um, and it does in terms of, you know, maybe the consumer products that are, they're attracted to. But, um, you know, for or, or, or career, career striving, um, you know, we did manipulate the mating market. And, you know, when men were gone, women were like, "Oh, yeah, I'm gonna be a cer-" You know, it's like, so it's like, so when you kind of take men off the table, then women are free to express these, you know, preferences for following passions or jobs or, you know, whatever. Um, you know, and I find that really interesting because men and women really are, have these curiosities that feed into career preferences. And then women learn that there's a trade-off to be made, um, at some point.

   25. CWChris Williamson58:46

       Yes. Given the fact, g- just going back to what we talked about before, given the fact that, um, the local ecology, the sex ratio between men and women heavily mediates what women want to do with regards to their career versus family.

   26. KDKristina Durante59:00

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson59:00

       How do you work out which one's the set point?

   28. KDKristina Durante59:04

       You mean, which one is sort of the default?

   29. CWChris Williamson59:06

       Base. Yeah. Which one, which one's the, the natural, then you've got naturalistic fallacy, which one's the desirable? Well then, well then what do you mean in terms of desirable? What are you optimizing for? Whose value judgment do you put on top of it? My point being, if it can be mediated so heavily by the local men, like-

   30. KDKristina Durante59:20

       Yeah.
9. 1:01:12 – 1:07:38

   How Genetics Impact Womanhood

   1. CWChris Williamson1:01:12

      was reading through some of your work, I kept on thinking about, uh, Barry Schwartz's The Paradox of Choice.

   2. KDKristina Durante1:01:18

      Oh, yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:01:19

      Yeah.

   4. KDKristina Durante1:01:19

      Yes.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01:19

      'Cause that has to play a huge part of this.

   6. KDKristina Durante1:01:22

      Right.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:01:22

      For the people that don't know, Barry Schwartz uses this really great example in his legendary TED Talk where he talks about jeans. And he says like, "In the '70s there was one type of jeans." And you'd go in and it would be, "What's your waist size?"

   8. KDKristina Durante1:01:32

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

      And you'd walk out with a pair of blue jeans. And now you go in and it's, "Do you want skinny or boot cut?"

   10. KDKristina Durante1:01:38

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:01:38

       "Do you want the stone wash? Do you want the black? Do you want the stretch? Do you want the whatever?" And we would think that-

   12. KDKristina Durante1:01:43

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

       ... being utilitarian rational beings, giving people more options would mean that they would be able to refine their choice more accurately to what they genuinely want versus what the market can offer them.

   14. KDKristina Durante1:01:53

       (laughs) Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01:53

       But it turns out quite the opposite, that this decision fatigue, existential dread of denim choice that we're faced with causes us to regret the decisions that we didn't make and to vacillate about the decisions that we should make a lot more. And this is, I mean, the genie's not going back in the bottle with regards to women being in the workplace, educational attainment, equality-

   16. KDKristina Durante1:02:13

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:02:13

       ... and so on and so forth. But there is an interesting question to be asked around whether or not this overall makes for a happier existence. The, the question basically-

   18. KDKristina Durante1:02:21

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

       ... is, is ignorance bliss? And no one's running-

   20. KDKristina Durante1:02:24

       Yeah. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson1:02:24

       No politician's running on the, on the policy of, "Women, have you ever considered regressing back to the 1940s?"

   22. KDKristina Durante1:02:30

       (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson1:02:30

       "Because it very ... I, I, I know that you might not be happy about the lack of money but it would make your dating options a lot easier."

   24. KDKristina Durante1:02:36

       Yeah. Yeah. So there are many negatives about, you know, turning the clock back to the 1940s but there would be a lot of decisions that were made for you, that you wouldn't have to, you know, worry about. Um, I strongly believe that the abundance of choice has made us so much more miserable than we ever have been. In fact, you know, I have a paper called Serendipity, because, um, we don't have a lot of that anymore, um, because of this sort of saturation of choice.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:03:07

       How do you mean?

   26. KDKristina Durante1:03:08

       And, uh, because of the endless choices that we find in, you know, from consumer products to mates, it's just ... You know, and like you were saying, you know, even within category of consumer products, there's just so many, uh, you know, different kinds of pairs of, you know, blue jeans that we could have, we could, we could choose. And then, you know, the opportunity cost is so salient, and, you know, we're choosing wrong. And then, you know, we defer choice all together or, you know, other things. And we've actually looked at ... So you think about dating apps, right? Where, you know, our brain is getting the signal that there's just so many, you know, people out there that could possibly be our partners. And we ... And, and even though they're in our phone or on our TV or wherever, our brain is, at some level, categorizing these people as part of our group and, you know, because no one came into your living space thousands of years ago who wasn't a part of your group, so it's potential. And so, you know, but, you know, so, but there's just so many people out there. And so, you, you, you choose one, you go on a date, and, you know, you're thinking about that person versus all of the other ones that could be better out there that you have really easy access to. And it, it does something to satisfaction. So, we, we tried our best. So I have a paper on serendipity and it's all about consumer products, but we did try to do this with mating where, you know, we gave people, um, you know, a choice of a partner and they picked a partner. And then they kept seeing that partner over and over again, so it was like, it was like we were doing, like, a s- a saturation. Um, and we do this with consumer products all the time where eventually you're like, "Oh my God, I love this cookie," and you're like, "I can't eat that cookie again." Um, and so, like, we ... Eventually, like, exposure decreases attraction, like the more and more you're seeing this person. Sexual attraction.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:04:58

       Did you see that most recent paper that came out about women's decline in, uh, sexual attraction occurring more quickly than men's?

   28. KDKristina Durante1:05:06

       I did. I did. And so-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:05:08

       (groans)

   30. KDKristina Durante1:05:08

       And my female colleagues were like, "Yes, so we need this now there. We already knew this but now there's some data behind it." And then the men were like, "There's gotta be moderators." (laughs)
10. 1:07:38 – 1:18:27

    Capitalism’s Effects on Female Priorities

    1. CWChris Williamson1:07:38

       right.

    2. KDKristina Durante1:07:38

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:07:38

       So, uh, thinking about, um, one of the common tropes or headlines that you see online with regards to women purchasing decisions and stuff like that, how right do you think it is to lay women's desire for focus on beauty and dieting and signals of fitness at the feet of capitalism?

    4. KDKristina Durante1:07:58

       How ... uh, what do, what do I think about making, you know, h-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:08:02

       How right is it to throw those-

    6. KDKristina Durante1:08:04

       How right is it?

    7. CWChris Williamson1:08:04

       Yeah. To, bec- I mean, you know, a lot of the time, the accusation is these-

    8. KDKristina Durante1:08:08

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:08:09

       ... big, bigwigs sat in offices in New York City-

    10. KDKristina Durante1:08:12

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:08:12

        ... designing marketing campaigns that do the whatever. Um, how right is that?

    12. KDKristina Durante1:08:16

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:08:16

        To, to, uh, to lay it at the feet of capitalism?

    14. KDKristina Durante1:08:19

        Well, I don't know. I don't know if it's a, it's, it's right or wrong. I mean, I'm (laughs) , I'm an-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:08:22

        How accurate is it?

    16. KDKristina Durante1:08:23

        ... I'm an evolu- I'm an evolutionary psychologist, but I'm in the marketing department. Um, so, I, I don't know. It can be totally off base at times. It tota- totally depends and I think it changes with, you know, how society is changing. Certainly things are changing rapidly now with h- how, you know, especially in the beauty industry. It's like, you know, all more inclusive. It's not exactly what it was before. You know, Victoria's Secret took huge, you know, amount of, you know, online punishment for their not keeping up with the times and being more inclusive, um, and, you know, they eventually had to, you know, get with it or die completely. Um, and so, that's really n- you know, new, um, but, you know, I, it's, I, I don't know. Is it right or wrong? And I, I guess, you know, consumers, uh, you know, can, you know, m- be smart and make up their own minds and realize that there's always going to be someone behind the curtain that's trying to manipulate your preferences and your purchasing. I mean, that's, you know, sort of what, you know, the advertising and marketing industry is, is all about. Um, you know, if that's what you're getting at, like, it's really hard to say it's right or wrong. Um, but it's gonna continue, uh, because businesses are always in- (laughs) in- invested in, in, you know, strengthening the bottom line, um, even if it means by, you know, creating an illusion for you in order for you to buy the product.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:09:53

        Looking at the different consumer purchases of men and women, were there any surprising purchases w- a- which were actually effective at attracting a mate?

    18. KDKristina Durante1:10:04

        Oh, that's a really good question. Um, and we didn't measure the end result, like, did this attract, uh, a partner because you, you, you bought this. I think some of my colleagues looked at, like, men looking at women with, you know, expensive handbags and, you know, and that's re- and, and found that women were like, that the men were like, "Wow, she's gonna be (laughs) a lotta maintenance." Um, so-

    19. CWChris Williamson1:10:24

        (laughs)

    20. KDKristina Durante1:10:25

        ... we didn't, we didn't find that men were more attracted to women with, you know, designer handbags than they were with women with, you know, l- you know, no handbag or lower class handbag or whatever. Um, but, um, but I've never really looked at, you know, outcomes of, you know, consumer purchases on dating, but, you know, I think this goes for men and women, you know, people who pay attention to their attractiveness and, you know, try to clean themselves up and just be (laughs) , you know, attentive to general overall, you know, hygiene (laughs) , that that is going to be very helpful, those products, in, you know, in attracting mates. And then, um, you know, for, but again, the, the jury's still out on women's luxury purchases, like, does that help? I don't know. Maybe aligning with, you know, high-status groups, uh, does buy you something. Um, but for men, you know, having these, you know, having a car that's, you know, like, a, what is it, a Maserati or something, you know, that helps. You know, so, because women are more interested in, in status when it comes to, um, you know, their, their partners than men are.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:11:32

        There was an interesting study that I saw on Tinder to do with right swipes on a guy, exactly the same guy, but they replaced the Nissan Altima-

    22. KDKristina Durante1:11:39

        (laughs)

    23. CWChris Williamson1:11:39

        ... with a Lexus.

    24. KDKristina Durante1:11:40

        Oh, okay.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:11:41

        And the guy, it was like a, a significant increase in the number of right swipes.

    26. KDKristina Durante1:11:45

        Oh, that's true.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:11:45

        But that being said, there's also a significant number of increases in right swipes if you've got a dog versus if you've got a cat. A cat is actually below-

    28. KDKristina Durante1:11:54

        Oh, yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:11:55

        ... the control and the dog is significantly above. So, what you want is a dog in a Lexus basically, and that's presumably maximum right swipes.

    30. KDKristina Durante1:12:03

        Yeah. That's really interesting. Yeah, because, uh, a dog is masculine and a cat is feminine.

Episode duration: 1:23:57