EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,001 words- 0:00 – 2:05
Setting the stage: Relationships 103 and the “dark parts” (cheating, breakups, moving on)
- CWChris Williamson
(wind blowing) Welcome back. It is Johnny and Yousaf from Propem Fitness. Hi, there.
- YUYusef
Hello.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- YUYusef
Yousaf, stop. You're always messing up the start of my podcast.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm always messing up the start. Today, we are going to talk about relationships 103. We have done two very successful episodes that I think have helped a lot of people, or at the very least, uh, helped us understand our own stance on relationships.
- YUYusef
Had some good feedback on that one.
- CWChris Williamson
And it ended a relationship. Pardon?
- YUYusef
It's ended a relationship.
- CWChris Williamson
It ended a relationship. So I got a message from someone-
- YUYusef
Just being careful.
- CWChris Williamson
... I won't say who, um, I got a message from a girl on Twitter saying that after she watched one of the relationships podcasts, she decided to finish a relationship she'd been unhappy in for a long time and was now four weeks hence and feeling liberated and better for it. So congratulations.
- YUYusef
Through the Instagram funnel.
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly. So today, we're actually, speaking of ending relationships, we're getting to the, the darker parts, I think, of, uh, of relationships. We're gonna talk about cheating, how to get over someone, and how to end relationships. It's quite a, um, quite a murky world-
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... this one, isn't it? We're down into the depths now, where all of the fish have got long teeth and they've got those little angle things that come off the top.
- YUYusef
The globe and the teeth that come like this.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And one of the worst things is that all of us have got really terrible-
- YUYusef
Brilliant stories about us.
- CWChris Williamson
... um, brilliant/terrible, however you would like to look at it, indeed, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think we left off last time kind of trying to work out how to establish a good relationship and move it forward. But obviously, doesn't matter how well you try and start things off, inevitably relationships do sometimes go awry. And certainly in my experience, um, in relationships, the beginning of, for me, the first realization
- 2:05 – 3:12
Early warning signs: waning sexual interest and diverging values
- CWChris Williamson
that there's something wrong is when sexual interest starts to wane. So for me, that's like the, th- the first warning signal. Like as soon as that starts, I'm like, "Ah, man." Like I'm not being interested, I'm not being challenged, I'm not being... I'm just not as bothered.
- JOJonny
I would say when sexual interest starts to wane, that's the sugary coating to the relationship and it reveals any underlying malformations with the way that you've come together, and it makes it more obvious because there's no longer any sugarcoating to make that better. And there was two themes that you mentioned in 102 about when you meet someone and you have slightly misaligned values, and as you grow together, those trajectories will move further and further apart. And then when they get to breaking point, then there's a natural progression which is breaking up. And the other thing was about tolerating things, or what was the word you used? Like keeping someone right or-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, drawing lines in the sand.
- JOJonny
... yeah, having, having those boundaries and if you don't set them early on, over time-
- CWChris Williamson
They grow.
- JOJonny
... as the sugarcoating starts to dissolve-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah.
- JOJonny
... things get worse.
- 3:12 – 4:47
The “rope” metaphor: drifting apart, snapping, and grabbing other options
- CWChris Williamson
That's kind of, that's kind of right, isn't it? Over, you get kind of like compounding interest on differences between the two of you, or it's like the trajectory of a, of a rocket ship. Like if you're 1% off at the start, by the time you get to the moon, you're actually like 100,000 miles apart from each other.
- JOJonny
And it's like you're holding a rope and you both just start walking in the desert.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JOJonny
Like a stretchy rope, let's say.
- CWChris Williamson
Long one.
- JOJonny
Long one. And-
- YUYusef
Some elastane.
- JOJonny
... yeah. And you both just start walking together. You think you're walking parallel but over time you start realizing-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JOJonny
... you're both walking like that.
- CWChris Williamson
Drifting apart.
- JOJonny
And then eventually the rope pulls more and more and more and you either allow it to pull yourselves together and you realign your values together or you carry on stubbornly going your own way until-
- YUYusef
Snapping in the face.
- CWChris Williamson
... or you-
- JOJonny
Yeah.
- YUYusef
... and it snaps.
- CWChris Williamson
... see someone else who's holding a bit of rope and think, "I fancy a bit of that rope while I'm holding this one." And then before you know it, you've got hold of five bits of rope.
- JOJonny
Well, oh, that's when you're trying to hold onto one and you just lean over and get the other one.
- CWChris Williamson
Get the other one. Yeah.
- JOJonny
And hoping they don't notice. But they can see that you're holding onto two ropes.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JOJonny
And then you've got one in your mouth, and then you've got like-
- CWChris Williamson
I don't think we need to talk about what we've got in our mouth.
- JOJonny
(laughs) Not yet.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JOJonny
Relationships 104.
- CWChris Williamson
That's 104. That's, uh, that's, uh, available on a members only website.
- YUYusef
What to and what not to put in your mouth.
- JOJonny
Quite certain requirements for that.
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly. So yeah, I think... Should we start with cheating in a relationship? Because we've still got the relationship at this point.
- 4:47 – 7:12
Why people cheat: self-protection, prospecting, and insecurity hedges
- CWChris Williamson
It's 'cause they think 103's got better stuff in. That's... I always do that. I always watch, like, part two first. Skip ahead. Well, you've bought an iPhone X not an iPhone 1 haven't you? Fair enough. Whatever. So cheating in a relationship, a couple of things that I'd like to kind of mention straight off is that there's certainly been times where I've... So I've been, uh, my infidelities in relationships haven't been massive but they have been, uh, they, they've existed. And one of the main reasons that I've done it, I think, is to kind of protect myself. I've kidded myself into believing that if I cheat in a relationship, that somehow gives me some sort of power or if I've got some, uh, insecurities about the way that the other person feels about me, it almost comforts me and kind of pads those out, gives it an artificial sense of inflation where I'm, "Oh, I'm not as bothered, like, 'cause I've, like, I've slept with someone else, so I'm, I'm not really that arsed." But (hiccups) all that you're doing there is you're just papering over cracks of a problem which are going to get worse. And in fact, actually, you're just driving a wedge into them because if you're concerned about how you feel about someone, sleeping with someone else is a pretty surefire way of beginning to-
- JOJonny
So are you saying cheating, you, whenever you have cheated, it's been a political move? Or is it just that it's unconscious behavior that then...... as you think about it, it's like, "Oh, maybe I did that so that I can distance myself from it without having to-"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I think in retrospect. I'm not really too sure at the time. At the time, it's quite sort of, um, primal and-
- JOJonny
Tits and that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, tits and shagging and that. Um, but yeah, I think it, it feels like an insurance policy somehow against being hurt.
- YUYusef
That's interesting.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- YUYusef
I've ... So have you, have you-
- JOJonny
It makes sense. Like, I, yeah-
- YUYusef
Have you both cheated on people before?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- JOJonny
I've never cheated on someone.
- CWChris Williamson
I have.
- JOJonny
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
So I'd, I never viewed it in the way that you viewed it. That feels very, like, a step away from the situation. It's like, here's the situation happening, I'm gonna go in another room and think about it and then come back in and make a decision. Mine, I feel like mine was always like this, this s- situation's kinda ... it doesn't feel as good as it used to, so I'm looking for the next one. If that makes sense. Oh, so y- you were prospecting.
- YUYusef
I think so. I think so.
- JOJonny
So that's a different motivation then, isn't it? That's like, I'm unhappy in this, but I'm not doing it as an insurance policy to feel better about this relationship.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JOJonny
I'm just looking for a new rope to hold onto.
- 7:12 – 15:37
Novelty bias and the modern option-overload problem
- YUYusef
So, so I think actually that's ... I think the reason why most people cheat is that they believe that the sugary coating is the, the relationship-
- JOJonny
The thing to chase.
- YUYusef
Yeah. And so like, I, I also think that every relationship has a fixed trajectory. So like, there's this, you'll encounter the same problems now, like in the relationship you're in now than, than, in, a- as you will in the one that you move into by cheating. Assuming that most people, like they're married, for example, they cheat on their partner and then end up in a relationship with the person they cheated on thinking that they will never experience the problems that they had with that person. But actually, they're just starting again, and in two years time-
- JOJonny
Probably on a worse premise as well, because you then start-
- YUYusef
No, 'cause the-
- JOJonny
... a relationship as an affair.
- YUYusef
Well, see, the one way to know for sure that the person that you're with will cheat on you-
- CWChris Williamson
Has the capacity to cheat.
- YUYusef
... is, is because you met them by cheating on someone.
- JOJonny
Oh. (laughs)
- YUYusef
And they were cheating on someone. Like it's a-
- CWChris Williamson
There's a meme, there's a meme floating around that says if he cheats with you, he'll cheat on you.
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- JOJonny
Well, like, that, I don't think that's an unfair thing to say as well, like past behavior is usually-
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking obviously?
- YUYusef
... predictive. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Fucking obviously.
- YUYusef
Yeah.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- YUYusef
So I, yeah. I ...
- JOJonny
Oh, no, no, I'm different now. I've, I've changed.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- JOJonny
I'm a better person, you know.
- YUYusef
So that said though, I think, um, having cheated on someone before, I now realize how just utterly pointless it is. Like it is, it is, it is hyperbolic discounting at its, at its biggest, most insidious form.
- CWChris Williamson
Everyone, I've got a cramp.
- YUYusef
Where is it?
- CWChris Williamson
And it flippant knacks-
- YUYusef
Where is it?
- CWChris Williamson
... in my foot. Ah. Thanks, Johnny.
- YUYusef
How's it going?
- 15:37 – 20:15
Cheating dynamics by gender (and how the stereotypes are shifting)
- JOJonny
So there's, there's a few psychologists that have formalized what Johnny's just said there, which is the, the stereotype that men will treat for... cheat for physical, sexual novelty, and women cheat because they feel unloved. Um, and that the primary driver of men's motivation in a relationship is respect, and for women it's love. And if they don't feel like they're receiving that, um, respective thing, then they'll start to be unhappy in the relationship and, and want to leave. There's an interesting study which looks at asking people who are in partnerships how, "What would be worse for you, if your partner was having great sex with someone else or if your partner was deeply in love with someone else?"
- CWChris Williamson
It's like on one side it was they didn't care about them but were having good sex.
- JOJonny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And on the other side, didn't ever touch them, but sent very meaningful messages and cared about them deeply.
- JOJonny
Yeah, exactly. So the, those two kind of opposites on the spectrum. And men would always say, or in general would say, "I prefer if my partner was deeply in love with someone else but didn't touch them," and women would prefer the opposite. So, I think that's quite interesting with the way that we're wired and the way-
- YUYusef
Sorry, sorry, say that again.
- JOJonny
So-
- YUYusef
What do they prefer?
- JOJonny
So men would prefer if their partner was in love with someone else rather than if they were having great sex with someone else but it was meaningless.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. I think that just harks back-
- YUYusef
I really, I really can't decide.
- JOJonny
Really? I think I would... I'm probably part of that stereotype.
- YUYusef
You'd prefer that they were in love?
- JOJonny
Yeah.
- YUYusef
Why?
- JOJonny
Even though it's illogical, because that's harder to-
- YUYusef
Remedy?
- JOJonny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
In this situation right now, it's easy for me to-
- YUYusef
Just what?
- CWChris Williamson
It's easy for me to rationalize, but the, um, juvenile ego inside of me, I know how visceral and how stomach-punching it is when you don't feel like you're good enough.
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's, there's nothing that you can do to stop, to want that feeling to just fuck the fuck off.
- JOJonny
'Cause it's so visceral, like Aubrey Marcus was talking about when his wife first had sex with someone else and he started this polyamorous relationship, that he spent a lot of the time, like, dry retching on all fours, just like (retches)
- YUYusef
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Great one, Aubrey.
- JOJonny
Which is insane.
- CWChris Williamson
Great one, man.
- JOJonny
(laughs)
- YUYusef
How about we assault the water? Saltwater in the morning?
- 20:15 – 28:22
Monogamy vs polyamory: evolutionary arguments, skepticism, and admin reality
- YUYusef
And you, you cannot ... You could get into, so with the mar- uh, mar- marquee, Marquis de Robins.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- YUYusef
Or Marcus, (laughs) um, so Sex at Dawn, that book. I haven't read it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- YUYusef
But that's ... He, he's a big believer in, like, polyamory and that monogamy isn't sustainable.
- JOJonny
Anyone I've read who's read Sex at Dawn has completely shifted their perspective on polyamory.
- YUYusef
Really?
- JOJonny
And they're like, "Oh my God." Like, "I'm never getting married now," and it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
Fa- also, bollocks.
- JOJonny
I'm almost scared to read it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, so let's, let's look at it from very, very briefly, I've done two podcasts with evolutionary psychologists recently. I'll lay a couple of, a couple of points on you two guys.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um.
- JOJonny
Lay them on us.
- CWChris Williamson
Female women.
- YUYusef
Female known.
- JOJonny
Oh, okay.
- CWChris Williamson
Female, female women.
- YUYusef
Female women.
- CWChris Williamson
Female, female women. That's a joke from Relationships 101. If you haven't noticed-
- YUYusef
A joke? It's a joke that I can't even remember.
- CWChris Williamson
Fine.
- YUYusef
So don't feel bad if you're thinking-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh my God.
- YUYusef
... "I listened to Relationships 101 and I-"
- JOJonny
You were here.
- CWChris Williamson
You were here.
- YUYusef
I was here.
- CWChris Williamson
You existed. Anyway.
- YUYusef
I might be in a separate room.
- 28:22 – 28:57
When cheating happens: breach of contract and where the line is drawn
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I, I, I agree. Um, so yeah, moving forward from cheating, I suppose is how do you end a relationship? (bell dinging)
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, if that's me, I'm gonna feel... No, it's Dean. Like a big poo. It's definitely Dean. Do you feel like a big poo, Dean?
- JOJonny
Dean doesn't speak.
- NANarrator
No.
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- JOJonny
Dean doesn't speak, does he? Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I was talking to myself.
- JOJonny
So how, how do you end a relationship, and ending a relationship generally?
- CWChris Williamson
Or should you, when should you end a relationship?
- JOJonny
That's a great question. I, I- So question one, when you're cheated on or when you cheat, should you end a relationship?
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, God. I mean, it's-
- JOJonny
So-
- CWChris Williamson
So we're going to sell it at seven quid under that.
- JOJonny
(laughs) Yeah.
- 28:57 – 32:44
Should you stay after cheating? Trust collapse and the ‘lagging alarm’ idea
- CWChris Williamson
Sell it at £7.29. I think the, the thing that we brought up before about if you, if anybody claims that someone cheating on them brought them closer together in a relationship, they're chatting shit.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It can only make things worse. I, I do agree-
- JOJonny
Spinning around.
- CWChris Williamson
I do agree that there's probably a couple of people out there, there's some people out there for whom they may be able to continue as the same, but it's not making your relationship better.
- JOJonny
No.
- CWChris Williamson
That is fucking chat bollocks.
- JOJonny
Well, it's, it's removing trust.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Just destroying trust.
- JOJonny
Just 'cause-
- CWChris Williamson
There is a, there is an agreement that neither of you are going to do that, and one of, um, people has done it.
- JOJonny
Unless ... So we spoke to James Bailey on the podcast, very interesting guy, polyamorous person, recently in a monogamous relationship, but just said at the start, "Look, I'm tempted by other women, and this is the case. So if we're gonna, if I'm gonna have sex with someone, I'll let you know, but this is, this is it. And you, you can as well, but let's just discuss this so that-"
- CWChris Williamson
So is, is that cheating?
- JOJonny
I suppose it's not 'cause they've set out the terms-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JOJonny
... to begin with, haven't they? Interesting.
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause cheating is, is really just defined as not-
- JOJonny
Breach of contract.
- CWChris Williamson
... not adhering to the terms of the arrangement.
- JOJonny
The terms need to be put in advance, and this is, that's a great point that we've missed off there. The fact that, where do you draw the line with what is and isn't cheating?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- JOJonny
And I've recently had a discussion with someone who is, uh, regularly on a morning TV show, and she had been on saying that a man liking other women's photos on Instagram counts as cheating. And I was like, "Fair enough. I don't agree, because you are implying, um, a..."
- CWChris Williamson
... goal out of that. You're implying-
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... a particular desire that he's trying to achieve by that same argument.
- JOJonny
Says more about her than it does about the man.
- CWChris Williamson
To a degree, but, uh, the, the same argument would be that a man, your man, who's looking at another woman in a bar is exactly the same, because that's pretty much the same thing.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and, but the, the very furry gray line of exactly what is and isn't cheating, like is holding hands cheating? Is having a meaningful conversation with someone cheating? Don't hold hands.
- JOJonny
But we're cheating.
- 32:44 – 37:48
Ending a relationship promptly: stop wasting two lives
- JOJonny
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
So, I, I think certainly one thing in terms of, like, how to, w- when to finish a relationship, the presiding rule that I've realized over the last few years is that if you are unhappy in a relationship and you want to finish it, and you're certain that you want to finish it, you should finish it right now.
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And the reason for that is that not only are you wasting your own life, but you're wasting someone else's as well.
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- JOJonny
It's respect for yourself and for-
- CWChris Williamson
The other person.
- JOJonny
... the other person, isn't it? Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, if you know that it's not going anywhere, and you can't pluck up the courage to do it yourself-
- YUYusef
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... think about the fact that you're wasting the other person's life too.
- YUYusef
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And, I mean, if you, if you need more motivation than that, I'm afraid I can't give it to you.
- JOJonny
What are the big objections to doing that? So-
- CWChris Williamson
Fear.
- JOJonny
Fear?
- YUYusef
Diff- difficult conversation. F- fear of making a wrong decision.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- YUYusef
Fear that you'll only realize that you're making the wrong decision.
- JOJonny
You'll knock the lights over and...
- YUYusef
(laughs) Yeah, that you're, you're only realizing that you, that you made the wrong decision later down the line.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- YUYusef
'Cause I, I think, like, any big decision, the fear is, "I'm going to do this and I'll regret it."
- CWChris Williamson
I'll regret it. Yeah.
- YUYusef
'Cause if you, if you knew-
- JOJonny
Okay.
- YUYusef
... you were right, it wouldn't be a difficult decision. It'd be like, "Oh, this is a shit conversation."
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm. I see.
- YUYusef
"But I need to do it." It's, it's, "How do I know? 'Cause I, I, it's, it's bad now. I've had some bad experiences. I'm not sure it's going anywhere. I'm gonna have this awful conversation, but I might see him or her with someone else in six months time and think, ah."
- JOJonny
I'll be like, "We should've just..." Yeah.
- 37:48 – 46:12
How to break up with compassion: truth, clarity, and no false hope
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I mean, in terms of advice for if you need to... I mean, uh, we haven't even gone onto this before and a girl on Twitter's already ended a relationship, which should, fucking bravo. But, um, the, the main thing I want people to take away from this section is like, if you know that it's not going anywhere and you're certain of it, then firmly and compassionately tell the person that you're with that it's over. Sit them down. Don't do it over text. Like, if it's serious, like if you've been together two months, then fucking, like, do a S- Snapchat them. Like, it doesn't matter.
- YUYusef
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, don't need to send a fucking-
- YUYusef
Insta story.
- CWChris Williamson
... flare, fla-
- YUYusef
It's the swipe up.
- CWChris Williamson
Insta story, yeah, swipe up.
- YUYusef
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Swipe up to end this relationship.
- YUYusef
Like tree. I've got a message for you, find it, that's why I vote what it is.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So, um.
- YUYusef
Link tree. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
But yeah, definitely, i- i- if you know that it's over, then firmly and compassionately tell the person that this can't go on anymore. And they'll want the reasons and they'll want all the rest of it. In that scenario, I think it's best, again, to tell them the truth. Uh, I'm on this kind of truth vibe at the moment, and we will do an episode on why truth is a superpower-
- YUYusef
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... at some point in the future. But the least that you can do for someone when you're about to end a relationship with them is give them the metrics by which they can improve themselves for the next relationship.
- JOJonny
I like that a lot. So, so you, when, when you're giving them that truth, it's, it's because it's doing them a favor, but I think the temptation is either to not think through the delivery, and I've got a story to as- associated with that, or if you're so bitter about it that it ends up just coming across as like, like a pressure cooker and you just unload onto them. Um, when I was 17, 18, I broke up with a girl who I ended up in like, a six to seven month relationship with just because I was basically, um, too passive, just in general, in my life. And so, um, it was the equivalent of someone like, grabbing me and putting me in the sack and then it's like, "Right, that's it. You're in a relationship. You are my boyfriend now for seven months." And then slowly I was like, "Hang on, like, I've had no choice in this."
- YUYusef
(laughs)
- JOJonny
So like, I'm actually, I'm actually not really interested in this girl. And, and, um, yeah, so, so-
- CWChris Williamson
This sounds like one of those cold call people that knock on the door of OAPs and before-
- JOJonny
Oh, they're in-
- CWChris Williamson
... they know it, they've got a 300 pounds a month direct debit.
- JOJonny
Yeah, I'd, I, I-
- CWChris Williamson
A PPI and all-
- JOJonny
... had all my double glazing done, I've signed up for three insurances. I had-
- YUYusef
Solar panels.
- JOJonny
... solar panel, I had a Google Home. I didn't even, I didn't know how to use it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- JOJonny
So eventually I was like, "Right, I'm gonna have to just..." I- in my, much further along this, the autism spectrum than I am now, brain, I thought, "What's the best way to d- to... Okay, I know. Okay, this sounds good, right?" Took her aside, just before she got on the bus, and I said-
- CWChris Williamson
At the bus stop?
- JOJonny
... at the bus stop, "I'm not attracted-"
- 46:12 – 56:59
A practical framework: sustainability test + problem list + mutual accountability
- YUYusef
I think I, I think I do have a framework.
- CWChris Williamson
Is it a spreadsheet?
- YUYusef
It's not.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh.
- YUYusef
I can make it a spreadsheet. But-
- CWChris Williamson
Subscri- subscription, um.
- YUYusef
(laughs) So, um, I think you first have to think. So it's, it's in exactly the same way as like, um, how you would approach low carb dieting. So like-
- CWChris Williamson
I can't wait to hear you compare how to break up with someone to how to approach a low carb diet. Begin.
- YUYusef
So, so it's, it's exactly, it's exactly the same. So there are people who, um, are fine never having carbohydrate again in their life. Okay? I'm not one of those people. So when I choose a diet approach and when I give my clients diet approaches, one of the first questions is like, "Can you honestly see yourself sticking to this in a year, five years, ten years?" Because if it isn't sustainable at the moment, it won't, it's not going to get better, it's only going to get probably more difficult and, and count for all these things. So like if you take the standard relationship, probably taken to the Nth degree, like you'll move in together. And that comes with lots of complications. You might get married, that comes with complications. You might have children, family, whatever. All those things are complexities and like a level up, like an extra thing to manage. So you have to right now think, "Can I imagine this getting to that point? Like, do I want this to get to that point? Is this person actually an enhancement? Do I like spending time with them?" Because it, it definitely should be like a level up, uh, enhancement to your life. Like you should feel like a better person. I think that's, for me, fundamental. But then, so if, if you think there are those things in place and you're unhappy, I would... And I've never done this personally, but like having been in failed relationships and now in a successful one, I think... Collate what it is that bothers you about the person. Sit down with them and say, "These are the things that are getting to me. What about me do you not like?" Honestly take their list and, and really, really work on it yourself. And if they aren't receptive to that conversation, then they aren't receptive to making it work anyway, more than likely.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- YUYusef
So like if you're experiencing problems, chances are they are too. Because I, I think everyo- I'm, I was terrible at this when I was younger of like, "This relationship's not going very well at all, what this person's doing."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- YUYusef
Like th- this is annoying, this is annoying, and you like moan about it with your friends, but you never consider like, I'm likely just as annoying if not more.
- CWChris Williamson
Just as much of a bastard, yeah.
- YUYusef
So like-
- JOJonny
We're much more blind to our own behavior as well.
- YUYusef
Of course. Of course you are, because it's automatic and ingrained. But yeah, so I think just having, in the same way that, you know, I, I likened the relationship to like a big business of, you know, like, um, like the board of Facebook when it was like the Cambridge Analytica stuff.... like, do they sit and panic and, and just all cry-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- YUYusef
And make really rash decisions? And like-
- CWChris Williamson
Storm out.
- YUYusef
Does one of them go over to Snapchat and, and, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. (laughs)
- YUYusef
... start trying work at Snapchat? Like, no, they sit down and think, like, "Let's solve this problem." Like, "We all, we all want this to, to continue being Facebook. Let's solve this problem." And you've got to have this same approach. And if Mark Zuckerberg goes, "This is, this is all too much for me. I'm going to go and work at Snapchat," then like, Facebook's never gonna work.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's fucked.
- YUYusef
So-
- CWChris Williamson
I think that's a good way, that's a good way to look at it, um, and I, I wonder, I wonder how many people would be prepared to write down the list and then take a list.
- YUYusef
You don't have to write it down.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, okay.
- YUYusef
But how do you- (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
But to, to, to, to, to-
- 56:59 – 1:02:53
Getting over someone: pride, grief, and cognitive reframing
- CWChris Williamson
But you should view it as an opportunity. Um, so the, the final bit, which is probably the most difficult, we've left the, the big boss for last, is how do you get over someone?
- JOJonny
Okay. So first thing is realize that no matter how tactfully you do it, even if you're really, really good about it and you take them to the side at the bus stop and you, you deliver a perfectly crafted line about the fact that you're not attracted to them at-
- CWChris Williamson
At all. (laughs)
- JOJonny
... at all, you will still get ... You will still be the villain among their friends, among their family, and there's no way around that, I think even if you were well-liked. And that's not necessarily personal. Uh, obviously, the, the, the friends of, of the ex are wanting, are gonna want to support them, and as a result, demonize you in, in the, in the stories and everything else. And I think just not to get (snaps fingers) involved and just to let them do that and thrash it out themselves-
- CWChris Williamson
That's-
- JOJonny
... is step one.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the presumption that you are the breakup protagonist.
- JOJonny
Breaker-upper, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Breaker-upper-er. Yeah.
- YUYusef
The breaker.
- CWChris Williamson
What if you-
- JOJonny
(laughs)
- YUYusef
Is it the number?
- CWChris Williamson
What if you are the broken?
- JOJonny
If you're the broken ...
- CWChris Williamson
Because this is-
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
This is the scenario I think that most people fear, which is that they care for someone and that one day they wake up and that this person says, "I don't feel the same about you anymore."
- JOJonny
Ah.
- CWChris Williamson
"There's someone else. This needs to finish." And-
- JOJonny
'Cause in some cases, you're like, "Oh, thank God." Uh, uh, I mean like, "Oh, I'm so excited, uh, thank you."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Know what I mean?
- JOJonny
Or-
- CWChris Williamson
I f- so here's, again, this is my, uh, uh, kind of the, the main point that I think guides my particular, um, emotions in these situations, and that's pride in a relationship is such an overriding, overbearing, visceral, stomach-punching feeling. And it, for me-
- JOJonny
The loss of pride. Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's ... Yeah. That, that, that, that you have this ego and, uh, and it's so fucking fragile and that there's been situations that I've been in with girls where I haven't wanted them anymore. I don't want them, I'm not bothered about them, and I don't even mind if they're with someone else. Like, uh, uh, I'm not attracted to them. It doesn't matter.
- JOJonny
At all.
- CWChris Williamson
But I still don't want them to say to me that they don't want me.
- JOJonny
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like, "I don't want you, but I don't want you to not want me." Like, "You're the dirty penny that's at the bottom of my bag, but you still gotta fucking stay in my bag." And it's such a juvenile, uh, d- a ridiculous way to feel, and I think that the flipping of that power, like, whether or not you don't care or whether you do care, the fact that someone is ... it's a comment on, "You're not enough." It's, uh, uh, when someone splits up with you, "You're not enough for me. You're (stutters) not worthy of my time as much as someone else is." You're potentially not even as worthy of my time as no one is.
- 1:02:53 – 1:10:01
Recovery tactics: no-contact, friends, distraction, and sitting with discomfort
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so in terms of effective strategies for getting over people, I've got some fairly, I guess, uh, staunch rules with regards to the way that I have done it in the past. Um, I think that trying to remain friends with your ex within, uh, if it's been a significantly long relationship, i.e. one that's probably over a year, I think that you should aim to cut contact with them. That is everything. That is, delete the number, delete the photos, remove them, block them on all social media, remove their phone number for six months. And I think that the reason for that is that the w- the ...
- JOJonny
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What are you laughing at?
- JOJonny
I know someone that did that, and they ended up receiving an email to their, like, work account-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, God.
- JOJonny
... or something, that was like, the final-
- CWChris Williamson
The last bastion-
- JOJonny
... way of getting ... yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of- of getting through. Man, there's a, this hilarious photo, Dean may be able to find it, of, um, a girlfriend who'd split up with a boyfriend at university, and the only way that he'd been able to contact her had been by depositing money into a bank account with a payment reference.
- JOJonny
Really?
- YUYusef
Nice.
- CWChris Williamson
That had the re- that had a message in it.
- JOJonny
How ... What- what should he put as the amount value, though?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, he put, like, one P, but he did, like, 10.
- JOJonny
Oh, that's creepy, though.
- CWChris Williamson
So it was like a word- a word per one.
- YUYusef
But, like, points for creativity.
- JOJonny
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
He's fucking clever, that. I'd take him back.
- YUYusef
You check your statement, and you're like, "Oh, God." That guy's gonna do well.
- CWChris Williamson
I'd take him back. Yeah, no. Maybe not in relationships, but-
- YUYusef
In something.
- CWChris Williamson
... Silicon Valley.
- JOJonny
I still love ... 4P, yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, exactly. Yes.
- YUYusef
See, he's, he's presented with a problem, wasn't he, something like, "How can I contact her?"
- JOJonny
But then wh- what if your bank's like, "Ah, minimum transfer is five pounds," and you're like, "Ah."
- YUYusef
"Ah."
- CWChris Williamson
"Fuck, this is 20 quid."
- YUYusef
Too much.
Episode duration: 1:18:03
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Transcript of episode 8KPoKkNty-A
