Cheating & How To Get Over Someone

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blowing) Welcome back. It…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blowing) Welcome back. It is Johnny and Yousaf from Propem Fitness. Hi, there.

   2. YUYusef0:14

      Hello.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:15

      (laughs)

   4. YUYusef0:15

      Yousaf, stop. You're always messing up the start of my podcast.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:17

      I'm always messing up the start. Today, we are going to talk about relationships 103. We have done two very successful episodes that I think have helped a lot of people, or at the very least, uh, helped us understand our own stance on relationships.

   6. YUYusef0:33

      Had some good feedback on that one.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:35

      And it ended a relationship. Pardon?

   8. YUYusef0:37

      It's ended a relationship.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:37

      It ended a relationship. So I got a message from someone-

   10. YUYusef0:39

       Just being careful.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:40

       ... I won't say who, um, I got a message from a girl on Twitter saying that after she watched one of the relationships podcasts, she decided to finish a relationship she'd been unhappy in for a long time and was now four weeks hence and feeling liberated and better for it. So congratulations.

   12. YUYusef0:58

       Through the Instagram funnel.

   13. CWChris Williamson0:59

       Exactly. So today, we're actually, speaking of ending relationships, we're getting to the, the darker parts, I think, of, uh, of relationships. We're gonna talk about cheating, how to get over someone, and how to end relationships. It's quite a, um, quite a murky world-

   14. YUYusef1:19

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:19

       ... this one, isn't it? We're down into the depths now, where all of the fish have got long teeth and they've got those little angle things that come off the top.

   16. YUYusef1:26

       The globe and the teeth that come like this.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:27

       Yeah. And one of the worst things is that all of us have got really terrible-

   18. YUYusef1:33

       Brilliant stories about us.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:34

       ... um, brilliant/terrible, however you would like to look at it, indeed, yeah. So, um, yeah, I think we left off last time kind of trying to work out how to establish a good relationship and move it forward. But obviously, doesn't matter how well you try and start things off, inevitably relationships do sometimes go awry. And certainly in my experience, um, in relationships, the beginning of, for me, the first realization that there's something wrong is when sexual interest starts to wane. So for me, that's like the, th- the first warning signal. Like as soon as that starts, I'm like, "Ah, man." Like I'm not being interested, I'm not being challenged, I'm not being... I'm just not as bothered.

   20. JOJonny2:21

       I would say when sexual interest starts to wane, that's the sugary coating to the relationship and it reveals any underlying malformations with the way that you've come together, and it makes it more obvious because there's no longer any sugarcoating to make that better. And there was two themes that you mentioned in 102 about when you meet someone and you have slightly misaligned values, and as you grow together, those trajectories will move further and further apart. And then when they get to breaking point, then there's a natural progression which is breaking up. And the other thing was about tolerating things, or what was the word you used? Like keeping someone right or-

   21. CWChris Williamson3:02

       Yeah, drawing lines in the sand.

   22. JOJonny3:04

       ... yeah, having, having those boundaries and if you don't set them early on, over time-

   23. CWChris Williamson3:09

       They grow.

   24. JOJonny3:09

       ... as the sugarcoating starts to dissolve-

   25. CWChris Williamson3:11

       Yeah. Yeah.

   26. JOJonny3:12

       ... things get worse.

   27. CWChris Williamson3:12

       That's kind of, that's kind of right, isn't it? Over, you get kind of like compounding interest on differences between the two of you, or it's like the trajectory of a, of a rocket ship. Like if you're 1% off at the start, by the time you get to the moon, you're actually like 100,000 miles apart from each other.

   28. JOJonny3:26

       And it's like you're holding a rope and you both just start walking in the desert.

   29. CWChris Williamson3:30

       Yeah.

   30. JOJonny3:30

       Like a stretchy rope, let's say.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Yeah. Mm-hmm. …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      from 102.

   2. YUYusef15:00

      Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:01

      Um, people are using that as a gauge of, "Well, this is potentially more beautiful," because there's a novelty bias.

   4. YUYusef15:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:07

      Um, and a recency bias as well, and all of the other, all the other, um, cognitive biases that we-

   6. YUYusef15:13

      So, so hot is-

   7. CWChris Williamson15:14

      ... fall crazy.

   8. YUYusef15:15

      ... um, like some Jimmy Choos. Beautiful is like, like a nice pair of nanas or, like, that could be worn in loads of different situations.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:23

      I get that.

   10. YUYusef15:24

       Like, they're really nice, but they're not quite as glitzy.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:28

       Yep, I get that. Why do you think women-

   12. JOJonny15:30

       Or a pair of Merrells. (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson15:32

       (laughs)

   14. YUYusef15:32

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:32

       Yeah, man. They probably would be some cat boots.

   16. YUYusef15:34

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson15:34

       Um, why do you think women cheat, Yusuf?

   18. JOJonny15:37

       So there's, there's a few psychologists that have formalized what Johnny's just said there, which is the, the stereotype that men will treat for... cheat for physical, sexual novelty, and women cheat because they feel unloved. Um, and that the primary driver of men's motivation in a relationship is respect, and for women it's love. And if they don't feel like they're receiving that, um, respective thing, then they'll start to be unhappy in the relationship and, and want to leave. There's an interesting study which looks at asking people who are in partnerships how, "What would be worse for you, if your partner was having great sex with someone else or if your partner was deeply in love with someone else?"

   19. CWChris Williamson16:22

       It's like on one side it was they didn't care about them but were having good sex.

   20. JOJonny16:27

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:27

       And on the other side, didn't ever touch them, but sent very meaningful messages and cared about them deeply.

   22. JOJonny16:32

       Yeah, exactly. So the, those two kind of opposites on the spectrum. And men would always say, or in general would say, "I prefer if my partner was deeply in love with someone else but didn't touch them," and women would prefer the opposite. So, I think that's quite interesting with the way that we're wired and the way-

   23. YUYusef16:49

       Sorry, sorry, say that again.

   24. JOJonny16:50

       So-

   25. YUYusef16:50

       What do they prefer?

   26. JOJonny16:51

       So men would prefer if their partner was in love with someone else rather than if they were having great sex with someone else but it was meaningless.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:57

       Mm-hmm. I think that just harks back-

   28. YUYusef17:00

       I really, I really can't decide.

   29. JOJonny17:01

       Really? I think I would... I'm probably part of that stereotype.

   30. YUYusef17:06

       You'd prefer that they were in love?
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Breach of contract. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

      is, is really just defined as not-

   2. JOJonny30:03

      Breach of contract.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:04

      ... not adhering to the terms of the arrangement.

   4. JOJonny30:06

      The terms need to be put in advance, and this is, that's a great point that we've missed off there. The fact that, where do you draw the line with what is and isn't cheating?

   5. CWChris Williamson30:13

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JOJonny30:14

      And I've recently had a discussion with someone who is, uh, regularly on a morning TV show, and she had been on saying that a man liking other women's photos on Instagram counts as cheating. And I was like, "Fair enough. I don't agree, because you are implying, um, a..."

   7. CWChris Williamson30:37

      ... goal out of that. You're implying-

   8. YUYusef30:39

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson30:39

      ... a particular desire that he's trying to achieve by that same argument.

   10. JOJonny30:42

       Says more about her than it does about the man.

   11. CWChris Williamson30:45

       To a degree, but, uh, the, the same argument would be that a man, your man, who's looking at another woman in a bar is exactly the same, because that's pretty much the same thing.

   12. JOJonny30:54

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson30:55

       Um, and, but the, the very furry gray line of exactly what is and isn't cheating, like is holding hands cheating? Is having a meaningful conversation with someone cheating? Don't hold hands.

   14. JOJonny31:07

       But we're cheating.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:08

       You are cheating. That's true.

   16. YUYusef31:09

       On who though? On Chris, 'cause he told us not to.

   17. JOJonny31:11

       Ah, yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:12

       You've broken the terms.

   19. YUYusef31:14

       (laughs)

   20. CWChris Williamson31:14

       Um, yeah, like w- where does the line get drawn for cheating? But I think, definitely, should you split up with someone when you find out that you've been cheated on? I guess that's a very individual, uh, individual question.

   21. YUYusef31:27

       Depends how much it matters to you, I suppose. (laughs) So has anyone-

   22. CWChris Williamson31:30

       Well, it's as if the relationship matters more, (laughs) should you...

   23. YUYusef31:33

       A- as in, like, it depends how much the specific instance of cheating matters.

   24. CWChris Williamson31:37

       Okay. Um, but like-

   25. JOJonny31:38

       We, we read the comments of this stuff, and I'd be really interested if someone could comment, if you've ever been in a relationship where someone's cheated and you've stayed together and you were glad that you did compared to-

   26. YUYusef31:48

       Yeah, and it's improved things.

   27. JOJonny31:50

       Mm-hmm.

   28. CWChris Williamson31:50

       That would be, I mean, that would be very surprising.

   29. JOJonny31:52

       'Cause I did. I, I stayed with a girlfriend after she cheated on me, and it was such a mistake. I was just like, "Why did I do that in the first place?" But it was just because I, I was too c- like, too clingy, I suppose. And looking back, it was like, if I'd just taken that as the... 'C-a 'cause it, it's already late stage. By the time someone cheats, the relationship's already broken. By the time that you've-

   30. YUYusef32:15

       It's an alarm going off, isn't it? It's not the problem.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. …

   1. JOJonny45:00

      seem like that-

   2. YUYusef45:00

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson45:01

      Yeah. That's doing the work on yourself before you try to make a relationship work.

   4. YUYusef45:06

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:06

      This is why introspective work and self-inquiry and-

   6. YUYusef45:09

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson45:10

      ... all these sort of things, uncovering your own cognitive biases are so important. If you don't know what you want, you can't, how the fuck do you expect the other person to know? Um, but yeah, I, I, unfortunately, for most of the stuff that we've had so far, we've been able to give a semi-autistic framework to things that's like a set of guidelines. This area of breaking up with someone, the devil's in the details and the gray area of when is enough enough, it is a, a choice which can only be made by you and the other person.

   8. YUYusef45:43

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson45:43

      And I think that the only thing that you can do is once you've made the commitment, stick to it. Don't leave the other person with any lingering sense of hope or potential that it's going to continue or-

   10. YUYusef45:57

       Oh, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson45:58

       ... that things may get better in the future or that you just want a break or whatever it is. It's-

   12. JOJonny46:02

       We all know the, the, the... We all got a mate who's like been on and off with their girlfriend for the last ten years and they're both just cut up about it.

   13. CWChris Williamson46:10

       Yeah, never works.

   14. JOJonny46:10

       And it's, yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson46:11

       No.

   16. YUYusef46:12

       I think I, I think I do have a framework.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:14

       Is it a spreadsheet?

   18. YUYusef46:16

       It's not.

   19. CWChris Williamson46:16

       Oh.

   20. YUYusef46:16

       I can make it a spreadsheet. But-

   21. CWChris Williamson46:18

       Subscri- subscription, um.

   22. YUYusef46:20

       (laughs) So, um, I think you first have to think. So it's, it's in exactly the same way as like, um, how you would approach low carb dieting. So like-

   23. CWChris Williamson46:33

       I can't wait to hear you compare how to break up with someone to how to approach a low carb diet. Begin.

   24. YUYusef46:38

       So, so it's, it's exactly, it's exactly the same. So there are people who, um, are fine never having carbohydrate again in their life. Okay? I'm not one of those people. So when I choose a diet approach and when I give my clients diet approaches, one of the first questions is like, "Can you honestly see yourself sticking to this in a year, five years, ten years?" Because if it isn't sustainable at the moment, it won't, it's not going to get better, it's only going to get probably more difficult and, and count for all these things. So like if you take the standard relationship, probably taken to the Nth degree, like you'll move in together. And that comes with lots of complications. You might get married, that comes with complications. You might have children, family, whatever. All those things are complexities and like a level up, like an extra thing to manage. So you have to right now think, "Can I imagine this getting to that point? Like, do I want this to get to that point? Is this person actually an enhancement? Do I like spending time with them?" Because it, it definitely should be like a level up, uh, enhancement to your life. Like you should feel like a better person. I think that's, for me, fundamental. But then, so if, if you think there are those things in place and you're unhappy, I would... And I've never done this personally, but like having been in failed relationships and now in a successful one, I think... Collate what it is that bothers you about the person. Sit down with them and say, "These are the things that are getting to me. What about me do you not like?" Honestly take their list and, and really, really work on it yourself. And if they aren't receptive to that conversation, then they aren't receptive to making it work anyway, more than likely.

   25. CWChris Williamson48:17

       Mm-hmm.

   26. YUYusef48:17

       So like if you're experiencing problems, chances are they are too. Because I, I think everyo- I'm, I was terrible at this when I was younger of like, "This relationship's not going very well at all, what this person's doing."

   27. CWChris Williamson48:28

       (laughs)

   28. YUYusef48:28

       Like th- this is annoying, this is annoying, and you like moan about it with your friends, but you never consider like, I'm likely just as annoying if not more.

   29. CWChris Williamson48:35

       Just as much of a bastard, yeah.

   30. YUYusef48:36

       So like-
5. 1:00:00 – 1:10:01

   'Cause it's, it's taken…

   1. CWChris Williamson1:00:00

      that breakups hurt as much, as badly as they do.

   2. YUYusef1:00:03

      'Cause it's, it's taken ... we take it personally when in reality, it probably isn't. It's probably ... like, break ... 'cause when you break up with someone, you think it's because of the other person, but it's because of your feelings and thoughts, and-

   3. CWChris Williamson1:00:17

      Mm-hmm.

   4. YUYusef1:00:17

      ... it may even be, like, stuff with you rather than the stuff with the other person. So-

   5. CWChris Williamson1:00:21

      Yeah. It's ... obviously, the other person has a big impact-

   6. YUYusef1:00:24

      Of course.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:00:25

      ... but there, uh, there w- 100%, there will be numerous relationships that are ended because someone says, uh, because someone feels that they've got some stuff to work on.

   8. YUYusef1:00:35

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:00:36

      They're like, "Look," like, "Fuck, man." Like, "I, I, I am just not in the right place for it at the moment," and they may be being so virtuous as to say, "I can't give you what you need. I'm gonna allow you to be happy with someone else." And that really-

   10. JOJonny1:00:49

       (clears throat)

   11. CWChris Williamson1:00:50

       ... is a, a f- very compassionate thing to say. But fuck, like if you hear that get delivered to you, you're just like, "Mm."

   12. JOJonny1:00:56

       Mm-hmm.

   13. YUYusef1:00:57

       Or it's, it's dealing with difficult news, isn't it? It's how, how do you take something-And, th- that is, that is shifting the rest of your life that you didn't want, and try and make the best of it.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:01:09

       Yeah.

   15. YUYusef1:01:09

       I think it's, um, like, it's- it's- it's not that different to ... well, although there is an end point in sight, I suppose. Like, if you're told that you have, uh, a disease, cancer, or something that is ... like, this is, you know immediately, like, "This is going to affect my life. I didn't want this to happen," you immediately catastrophize and think it's the worst thing possible. If all you can do is control, like, what I'm going to do about it and how I perceive it, then trying to frame this as, like, "This relationship has ended, but it's the start of something new. I can go find someone else."

   16. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

       Yep.

   17. YUYusef1:01:45

       Actions of, like, this- this is the end of this chapter in my life, I'm going to make myself even better, I'm going to work on this aspect of my life, whatever. Like, if there are two people, and both people ha- are in a relationship, or they're dumped, or they're cheated on, and one person frames it really positively, and just really doubles down on them and the rest of their life, and the other person spends six months grieving over the loss of the relationship-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:02:09

       Wistfully thinking about it.

   19. YUYusef1:02:09

       ... both of them are in the same scenario. Like, neither of their actions have changed the outcome.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:02:14

       Yeah.

   21. YUYusef1:02:14

       But one person's-

   22. JOJonny1:02:15

       That's a good point.

   23. YUYusef1:02:16

       ... had a really good.

   24. JOJonny1:02:16

       One person treats it as a crisis, and the other, opportunity.

   25. YUYusef1:02:19

       And y- and you can ... you know, it's the stoicism thing of, like, that's all you can control, is thoughts and actions.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:02:23

       Mm-hmm.

   27. YUYusef1:02:24

       Like, the breakup's the breakup.

   28. JOJonny1:02:25

       One of those ways to respond is the kind of instant grasping for, looking for, uh, someone else.

   29. YUYusef1:02:31

       Mm-hmm.

   30. JOJonny1:02:31

       Um, often someone that's not really well-suited, but they're just there.

Episode duration: 1:18:03