Modern WisdomChris Williamson | Ben Coomber Radio: Alcohol, Friend Or Foe? | Modern Wisdom Podcast 191
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,038 words- 0:00 – 0:52
Intro
- CWChris Williamson
The first problem with people going sober is that alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it, people assume you have a problem. There is a branding issue with sobriety in that the only people that don't drink are presumed to be closet alcoholics. And I get messages from people who haven't seen the history of my content, and then they'll just come upon a post, and it says, "I'm 10 months sober, I'm 18 months sober, I'm 20 months sober," whatever it might be. "Congratulations so much. I have to say, I loved AA. I thought that the support there was great." And I'm like, "I- I- I feel like an imposter." Like, "Uh, thank you for congratulating me, but being honest, I've never had a problem with substances." "Oh, okay. Well, why? What's the reason?" "Oh, it's just a productivity tool, the same way as people decide to focus on their sleep, or their nutrition, or their training, or whatever it is. I- It's just another tool."
- 0:52 – 2:35
Welcome
- CWChris Williamson
- BCBen Coomber
Hey, everyone. Ben Cooper Radio. What is happening? As is the theme with a lot of these podcasts during this lockdown period, we're kind of ignoring it. Like, it's just happening, but just, you know, just pretend it's not there. Let's just- let's just look to move forward. Let's look to improve areas of our lives that we can. Let's look to muse, and we will be doing that today. Uh, there's not many guests that res- returned to the show. There's probably been about six over the years that have returned to the show. But I was watching, uh, Chris. I was watching his Instagram stories the other day, and he was talking about a topic I've been thinking about a- a lot about recently, and it's been covered in the news quite a bit, 'cause obviously people are locked at home. And what's now happening is our str- uh, our kind of habits, our beliefs, our environments, they've kind of compounded. They've intensified 'cause we're at home. And whether that's a positive or a negative thing, it's either become more positive or more negative. And I thought the topic of alcohol and our relationship with it was something that I wanted to go further down the rabbit hole with, and on the first episode of this show with Chris, uh, we talked about it. We only really spent sort of about 10 minutes on it. And having watched, uh, Chris's Instagram story ... No, uh, it was just a post on, uh, Instagram, I think. I was like, "Yes, let's go there. Chris, get back on the show." So, Chris Williamson, welcome back to the show.
- CWChris Williamson
Great honor, mate. Doubled up.
- BCBen Coomber
Boom, boom.
- CWChris Williamson
Two episodes. What can I say?
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, man. Absolute pleasure to be back on, and, uh, looking forwards to talking about something that I spend a lot of time thinking about. So, yeah, let's get into it.
- BCBen Coomber
Why do you continue to think about it?
- 2:35 – 7:40
Alcohol is a drug
- CWChris Williamson
(smacks lips) I think that a lot of people's alcohol use is habituated rather than chosen.
- BCBen Coomber
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the bottom line. I think most people drink because other people did, and then they started too, which is societal norm. And then we roll the clock forward by five years or 10 years or 15 years or 20 years, and you've taken a drug. We can call it what it is. Alcohol's a drug. You've taken a drug more frequently than once every fortnight for decades. Like, if you- if you just arrived on Earth, and we're like, "Well, what are some of the rules about how you operate as a human?" Some alien civilization comes down here in their UFO and so, "Oh, there's this thing that you do and this that you do, and you gotta walk on your feet, and there's gravity and all this sort of stuff." Then you go, "Oh, yeah, by the way, there's this drug that you take, and you- you kind of- you're kind of not forced to take it. Uh, it will shorten your life. Uh, also it gives you memory loss. Also it makes you fat. Also it makes you want to eat, and it makes you feel like depressed and terrible the next day. But you're gonna- you're gonna have it more than- you're gonna choose to have it more than, uh, once every two weeks." And then, yeah, I mean, look at what's happened with lockdown, man. There was the biggest uproar in America, one of the biggest uproars in America was when the government threatened to make off-licenses, liquor stores, they'd call them, uh, nonessential and shut them down. And there was people hoarding alcohol.
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, what does that tell us? It tells us that people struggle to get through hard times without the buttress, the scaffolding that is alcohol. So I think about it a lot, and then, um, I have sixmonthsober.com, which is an online course I made to help guide people that just want to deprogram their use of alcohol. Not for people that have substance abuse problems, but just for people who want to use the foundation of consistency that sobriety gives you to then build yourself, uh, and improve yourself. And I'm, you know, I'm 20 months sober as of last week. Um, and I just- it's so bizarre that going sober's got an addictive essence to it, because you see the consistency you have. You have more time, you have more money, you have more calories to spend on things that you truly care about. And then you realize that when you choose to reintegrate drinking, if you choose to reintegrate drinking, that it's on your terms. You know, that you're in full control. Because you've deprogrammed the need to feel worried that you can't- you can go on a night out with your buddies and them say, "Why are you not drinking?" Or you've deprogrammed the need to feel like you need alcohol to give you confidence to go up and talk to that girl or that guy, or to just be in a group, or because you- taste buds have become accustomed to having, like, a- a- And you're a sparkling water fan, aren't you?
- BCBen Coomber
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
I've seen you talk about spark- Yeah. So, you know, to just be able to get away with a- a LaCroix or whatever it might be, a San Pellegrino or whatever at the table instead of getting a bottle of wine in. So you do all this deprogramming, and you realize, hang on, I'm actually now re-released into the world and I've got full control, as opposed to thinking that I've got control. Right? So, yeah, that's it, man. That's foundation, base. That's what we're talking about.
- BCBen Coomber
So, before we go on and go down a couple of rabbit holes, let's do a quick elevator pitch. Some people have not listened to my show before. Some people might not know who you are. What is the Chris Williamson elevator pitch?
- CWChris Williamson
Got you.
- BCBen Coomber
Who is this man?
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. A business owner from Newcastle, club promoter, run night clubs for 13 years. I've seen a million drunk people go in and out of them, so I understand how alcohol works. I understand what party life is. For a very long time, was the party boy. I was the dickhead club promoter, the guy around town, big dick on campus, all this stuff. Um, did Take Me Out, got to go to Fernando's and meet Paddy McGuinness, great. Did Love Island, got to meet Caroline Flack and go to the villa, uh, also great, fantastic, blue tick on Twitter, you know, all the-
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... all the big things, big headlines. Um, then started Modern Wisdom, which is my podcast. Started that two and a half years ago, just crossed two million downloads, which is fantastic. Aided in a big way by yourself, giving me a platform early on while we were doing that, and drove a lot of plays off the back of that, so I have a lot to thank you for on that, Ben.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm. Seriously.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and then that's it, man. I just... I'm curious as fuck. Like, I just... I just want to know about everything. I'm super, super curious, and that has led me b- I've got a, a desire with performance and, and, and productivity and, and o- optimizing as well. Not super, like, quantified self stuff, but, you know, I like to get better, and I like... I have a growth mindset. And that just meant I started playing around with loads of different things, loads of different ways to improve my life with intermittent fasting and different ways of changing your sleep up and all this sort of things. And one of the most effective things that I found was going sober. Despite the fact that I was a very infrequent drinker, I still found huge gains from it. And I guess that's the route into how sobriety came in there. Uh, but yeah, that's it. And we're now on the 13th floor, and you can step out onto your, uh, onto your veranda or wherever we are in this elevator.
- 7:40 – 9:50
Im not in pain
- CWChris Williamson
- BCBen Coomber
So, you bring up an interesting topic there 'cause I, I've just started talking to a therapist again, and, uh, I went to this therapist and said, "I don't have a problem. I'm not in pain. I don't need anything primarily, like solving, but right now I feel like I'm in a really good place with everything, my body, my mind, my business. I'm really balanced and, you know, I'm really happy." And I get that I'm very fortunate for a couple of reasons due to that, and I don't wanna kind of deliberate on that 'cause we're in lockdown, and I live in the countryside, and I'm not in a stuffy flat and all these things, but I've worked hard, in my opinion, on my mental game to be really content with wherever I am in life. So, I went to this therapist, and I started chatting to her, and I said, "I'm here 'cause I wanna understand if I actually know my truth, and it's not any element of my ego sort of disguising my own wisdom. I almost want you to, like, catch me out."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BCBen Coomber
And as we were talking through these different layers, we started to talk about our character traits, and I resonate with you 'cause I think we're, we're quite similar. We, we love exploring the mind, we just love personal development. And there was a point in the conversation where it's almost like you become... or you try and aim to become so pure and so understood and so balanced and so b- consistent that do you lose yourself in it? And that do you forget to relax and have fun and chill out and... 'Cause my therapist used an example that she loves to be really organized, and I do as well, and it's like we were almost joking about how we like to organize our downtime, and I just said to her, I was like, "Do I... Am I forgetting how to relax? Like, do I..."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BCBen Coomber
And it was really interesting. So, hearing you talk about you just being, like, fully in control and immersed and having a routine, like, how does that narrative sit to you? Do you feel like you're living every sense of, kind of your life in, in all this kind of optimization that is almost... Are you standing back enough to just sort of be present? I don't know. Does that-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BCBen Coomber
Do you get where I'm going with that?
- CWChris Williamson
No, I totally
- 9:50 – 14:57
The onion
- CWChris Williamson
understand your question, man. I think the first thing for anyone that's new or experienced in the self-development world to appreciate is that there's layers to this game, you know? There is s- and it is an onion, and unfortunately, it's an endless onion. You peel away some persona, you get rid of s- you strip away some ego, and you're like, "Yes, yes, that's, that's it. That's me. I'm at the core." And then you're like, "Ah, wait, hang on," and you realize... And the way to work this out is, do you think that you, 12 to 24 months ago, on balance, was actually a little bit of an idiot? And always, always that's the case. You're like, "Fuck! I, I thought I had it figured out. I thought I had it figured out two years ago, and look what's happened. I'm still, I'm still..." You know, "I didn't know anything." And it's like, in two years' time, you're gonna look back at the person that you are now, and you're gonna say the same thing, um, which is both a blessing and a curse because if you're constantly growing, inevitably, you're going to leave old versions of yourself behind, right? And the way that our lives work as well, there's epochs of our life, these kind of, like, maybe between two and five-year segments I think that we move through, where we, we could bunch together a, a, a common story, you know, like a, a theme, that that, that two to five years has got, and then it's okay, and then I'm onto this bit, and I'm onto this bit, and I'm onto this bit. And, uh, that's real typical, right? So, that's the first thing. Um, second thing, there's this quote from, uh, a ancient philosopher. I'm gonna see if I've got down here for you. Let me see if I can find you this. I'm reading one of the best articles that I've ever read at the moment, and, um, what they talk about is how spontaneity is actually created through discipline in the beginning, right? And that sounds, that sounds a little bit bizarre. You're like, "Well, hang, hang on. Uh, spontaneity and discipline to me are two different things." Like, how can you have a situation where you, um... How can you have a situation where you have a very structured life, and you are constantly, I know how much I'm gonna eat, I know what time I'm gonna wake up, I've got my morning routine and my evening routine and my work routine, and this is how my desk is set and all the rest of this stuff. And, um...How can I allow that or how does that mix in with other things? And there's this, uh, wu wei, there it is. So there's a- a quote from... And this is a guy called Kyle Enschroeder who wrote the article and, um, it's so good. So "in the early stages of training, an aspiring Confucian gentleman needs to memorize entire shelves of archaic texts, learn the precise angle at which to bow, and learn the lengths of steps with which he is to enter the room. His sitting mat must als- always be perfectly straight. All of this rigor and restraint, however, is ultimately aimed at producing a cultivated, but nonetheless genuine form of spontaneity. Indeed, the process of training is not considered complete until the individual has passed completely beyond the need for thought or effort." And this ties in with the way that the brain works as well. Anybody who's read Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman knows this, that you've got the instinctive response, which is your system one, and then you've got the slower more considered response, which is number two. Now what you need to do, and what a lot of routines do is they actually pull you out of the first type of thinking. They pull you out of that, they stop you from having just the visceral response, the instinctive response. You become more considered, and yet you have to go through sometimes a- an almost lifelong period of discipline. But as that slowly reintegrates, what you realize is that the discipline has become your nature. So the fact that you want to be more grateful, so you have to practice gratitude every single morning for three or four years. And then over time, you're actually like, "Hang on a second, I'm being grateful here." In exactly the same way as I want to be a little bit more muscular, so you start doing weight training. And at the beginning you don't have muscles, and over time you're still tr- doing the training, and yet your muscles are there to stay. Does that make sense?
- BCBen Coomber
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that- that kind of movement between the two... But I- I totally get what you mean, man, that it feels like discipline can be a bit of a burden. And for a lot of people it is, but I think that's more a- a problem to do with the way that we're brought into this world, like school. So the word school is a ancient Greek word that means play. It doesn't mean education, it doesn't mean place of, you know, like discipline. It means play. And yet when you go to school you think, "I've got to go to school," not, "I get to go to school," and all this sort of stuff. Um, so I think discipline and- and the way that we get socialized into that is a big part of it, right? And a lot of people shy away from, you know, their time off, their weekends, "Oh, you know, I'll just sleep in till 10 o'clock and I'll do whatever I want," and this, that, and the other. And that's totally sweet, but long term, over time, if you are disciplined you actually, oddly enough, end up liberating yourself.
- 14:57 – 19:57
Interconnectedness
- CWChris Williamson
- BCBen Coomber
So with all that being said, this is one of my pet hates with many people's relationship with technology, and alcohol will tie into this, uh, at a different level as well. But because we're so connected, I feel that everything kind of jumbles through each other. There's like, there's these energies and identities that are constantly mixing. And I was speaking to my kind of, uh, therapist, and we were identifying layers of my character and how I wanted to behave in my business life, my personal life, and I remember listening to an interview with Ant Middleton, I don't know if you've ever spoken to Ant Middleton?
- CWChris Williamson
No. I had Oli Oliton on last week, so his second in command to Ant. But yeah, Ant's- Ant's a badass. He's legit.
- BCBen Coomber
Nice. Um, so I met Ant at the UK Fitness Awards and I had a little chat with him. Great guy. And then I listened to him on another podcast and he- he gave some really polarizing opinions, and there was a couple of things that I kind of disagreed with, and I was like, "I can't disagree 'cause I don't know enough context." So I downloaded his book at the beginning of the weekend, and I started racing through his audiobook which is brilliant 'cause I love, like, war stories 'cause it's always like... It's stuff that we, like, what I'll say as mortals never get to experience. We're not fucking soldiers, like... So I love listening to that kind of stuff. And anyway, he talks about, um, all these layers of everyone's identity, and most men will have a problem going from work dude, to leader dude, to workout dude, to dad dude, to husband dude, because it's all getting muddied of this interconnectedness. And, um, I thought it was really good for me 'cause when I look at my life, I want to turn up in a certain way to every environment, and I think, you know, what we're getting at with wanting to develop ourselves is like when you and I go to work, we want to be a certain person and we want to turn up for those five, six, seven, eight hours as a certain person. But as soon as we walk through the door at home, we want to be a slightly different person. But actually, all of that sometimes gets lost, and I never think that... Or I think that people struggle to live that kind of true self in every environment, and perhaps that's the beauty of all of this, is developing yourself that you can live to your truest, best identity in any given environment.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, I couldn't agree more, man. I mean, there's- there's people that you know that are arg- uh, argumentative at work, and they'll be argumentative at home. You know, there's certain themes that go through people's lives. Um, but again, with this there's another... There's a Seneca quote that's- he talks about the virtuous mean, which is not a vice of deficiency nor a vice of excess. And I think one of the reasons why people like to go all in, in like work mode, and, uh, athlete mode, and dad mode, and all the rest of it, is that the same reason it's easier to finish an entire packet of biscuits than it is to just eat one, it's like I'm good at black and white, it's gray area thinking where you have to do a little bit but not too much.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like I need to be a bit of a disciplinarian with my kids, but I also need to give them a bit of love, and I also, uh, at work I need to care about people, I need to get them to buy into me, but also I've got to t- treat them as if they are in one way or another a little bit children. And then with the wife, I also need to make sure that we're loving and caring, but I also need to stand my own... And, you know, all these different things. It's challenging, that's why. Life is real difficult. And this is why for me, um, huge... Bizarrely like a huge respect to the people who don't bother to delve into the world of self-development, because they're living, you know-... by and large, from the outside, just as effective a life as anybody else.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But they're not ... (laughs) They're like, and they're totally... My business partner, Darren, like, he'll pick up some of the stuff that I say from the podcast, but he doesn't care, man. He's got two kids, two dogs, beautiful wife, beautiful house, and he operates fine.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
You know? Like, he functions completely, completely great. But I do think, you know, there's things that all of us can improve on here and there. And I think being true to yourself, as you've, uh, mentioned a number of times, you know, enacting your logos, as Jordan Peterson would say, what is your inner truth and how are you speaking it forward into the world? That's what we should be trying to achieve where we can.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm. Sorry, that was a little tangent. Um, we did start off talking about alcohol. Let's delve back into alcohol. Hopefully, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Let's do it.
- BCBen Coomber
... a few of those things have, uh, made us think on the old gray matter already. So with alcohol, the first show that we kind of talked about, we talked about the reasons why you'd done it and what it had led to, clearer thinking, better routine, not getting a groggy head. All the kind of stuff that anyone would experience if they stopped taking alcohol for a week. You just, you'd feel a bit better over time. Um, when you challenge people online, what is quite often the roadblocks for people actually committing to what you're saying? Almost, what are they scared of?
- 19:57 – 24:26
roadblocks to going sober
- CWChris Williamson
The first problem with people going sober is that alcohol is the only drug where if you don't do it, people assume you have a problem. There's a branding issue. There is a branding issue with sobriety, in that the only people that don't drink are presumed to be closet alcoholics. And I get messages from people who haven't seen lots of my backend content or like a, a history of my content. And then they'll just come upon a post that's maybe appeared on their newsfeed and it says, "I'm 10 months sober, I'm 18 months sober, I'm 20 months sober." Whatever it might be. "Congratulations so much. I have to say, I loved AA. I thought that the support there was great." And I'm like, "Ah, ah, I feel like an imposter." Like, I appreciate the... I, I, I thank you for, uh, congratulating me, but being honest, I've never had a problem with substances. Oh, okay. Well, why? What's the reason? It's just a productivity tool. The same way as people decide to focus on their sleep, or their nutrition, or their training, or whatever it is. I took alcohol out of my life. This, you might reduce processed foods, or you might take out carbs, you might go keto. You know, like, it's just a, it's just another tool. So challenges that people come up against. Uh, number one is social influence. So they don't want to feel like their friends are gonna take the piss out of them because they're not drinking. Again, n- going sober, there's kind of this boy club playful, even for girls, there's like quite boys club playful where, "Oh, mate, go on. Just have one." And, and people make up excuses. People are, "I've got the car." It's like, you've only driven so that you can say that you don't have to drink, because like having the car is one of the few acceptable... Like, like that and being pregnant are the only two acceptable excuses about why you're not drinking, you know? So, uh, social pressures, big deal for people, right? Um, buttressing of confidence is another one, uh, either in groups, especially if you're single, you know? Especially if you're single, and especially if you're a bloke that's single, because as a guy, you are expected to be the sexual protagonist, right? You're expected to go up to, to the girls. If there are any girls listening who are, uh, the ones that start off these conversations in bars and clubs, and it doesn't count if you get your friend to go up on your behalf.
- BCBen Coomber
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Or if you're the friend. That's not how it works. Uh, but if you're one of the girls that goes up and says like, "I think that you're really good-looking," or, "Are you single?" Or, "Hi, what's your name? Would you like a drink?" Or any of that, you are a very unique individual. Because for the most part, it's men, right? So men use that. Dutch courage, everyone knows what that's like. Um, after that, there's the midweek drinker. So you would have someone who has stresses at work and they would use their alcohol to deal with that. And their concern would be, "Well, if alcohol's my coping mechanism and it allows me... I just want to relax, you know. It just helps me relax on a night." They would never say coping mechanism. They would just say, "Oh, you know, it just helps me relax after I've had it." And it's like, "Uh, that's a coping mechanism." That's what that, that's the, that's it by definition. Um, some people would use it to help themselves sleep on a night. Uh, that is just a complete non-sequitur, because you're not sleeping, you're just sedated. The, the, uh, research that comes out from, um, Matthew Walker's book, Why We Sleep, is pretty robust on that, where he says the reason that you have crazy dreams when you've been drinking a lot is because your REM sleep hasn't been able to begin until all of the alcohol's been processed out of your system. And that's why like the last couple of hours, maybe, of a night when you've had a, a few drinks is where you have mad dreams, because your body's g- your brain's c- trying to condense all of that down, right? Um, so that's, that's some of the big ones. I mean, there's tons of other things, right? There's like-
- BCBen Coomber
So le- before we go down more rabbit holes or give more reasons, I'm fascinated by the first point, because that's obviously a problem for a huge amount of people, because a lot of us have certain friend groups. And if the friend groups always drink and you don't drink, then the friend group dynamic becomes different or difficult, and you become maybe quickly the outcast. So like, when you've worked with people, what generally happens? Does the person almost think, "I'm not sure if these people or some of these people can be my friends anymore, because it's like we just go out and drink"? But then there's a confidence issue, 'cause then where does that person sort of almost get their confidence from? It- And I suppose it's like anything, once you un- once you reveal an a- layer of the onion, it's like, well, now we need to go to the next layer, because you're not actually confident. So now we need to work on your confidence. You don't need the alcohol in a social situation or with girls or with family or with anything.
- 24:26 – 32:04
changing your tribe
- BCBen Coomber
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Yeah. Well, I mean, I've got a quote from James Clear here that I've just pulled up. "Changing your habits often requires you to change your tribe. Each tribe has a set of shared expectations. Behaviors that conform to the shared expectations are attractive. Behaviors that conflict with the shared expectations are unattractive."... it's hard to go against the group. So that there shows why we are- we're tribal creatures, you know. There's them and us. That's why football teams and football supporters get so ... That's why world wars have started, you know. That's why there's, uh, uh, rivalry between different political factions, or religious factions, or whatever it might be. So you're right. The first, the first problem is going to be you're around a bunch of people who are used to you drinking. Um, but the, the way that people that I've worked with, a lot of the clients have dealt with it is by finding the friends who they can bear to be around sober. And this is a really challenging thing to realize, right? How many of the friends that you have do you only spend time with when you drink? And then think from that group, how many of them could you bear to be around without alcohol? Like if the only time that your friends are happy with you being with them is when you're destroying yourself along with them, then you need better friends. And if you find out that the only way you can bear to be around them is by being drunk, then you definitely need better friends. You know? Like be friends with people that want the best for you, people that don't ... Not just ones that fucking take the path of least resistance, people that just tell you what you want to hear. Like the point is to be with people who raise you up, who make you better. And if you say, "Hey, I'm gonna- I'm doing this six-month sober challenge thing. I'm gonna do, like, 90 days. I'm gonna try and go sober for 90 days," they don't just go, "Oh, fucking hell, mate. What are you, pussy?" Like, no. Like be with the people who go, "All right. Well, I mean, you know, you're gonna be a bit, bit more boring on a night out, but that's cool. Like it'll be sweet to see how you get on, and I really hope that you do well," and this, that, and the other. Um, and again, with that, like as your domain of competence grows ... And this is something that's so insidious, man, and this is why people, people need to strip away the ego, because you can influence someone really negatively if you, if you're not careful, right? So that person, uh, uh, you're one friend, I'm the other. You've come to me, and you've said, "Hey, Chris, I'm thinking about going sober." And I'm the guy that goes, "That sounds totally shit. Like why would you bother doing that? It's, it's Jono's 33rd next week. You can't miss out on Jono's 33rd." You're like, "Well, his 32nd was fucking wank."
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"Like why would we be bothered about his 33rd?"
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so you, you know ... But I- You've got that, and that ... This person, the me, the, like, shithouse version of me that I've just given you there, that could be the barrier that stops you, that creates inertia that stops you from making a really important piece of behavior change in your life that would upgrade you, make you happier, and make you healthier, and give you more money, and time, and calories to spend on shit you care about. Like that's ... You know. You can be that influence in people's lives. It doesn't take much to actually be a real positive influence. So, uh, when people decide to go sober, they need to look at who are the people in the group that support them, you know. As opposed to someone who says, "That's totally shit," what, what about the friend that goes, "Actually, mate, like would you ... Do you reckon I could, like, do it as well? Do you reckon we could do it together, and we'll, like, be accountability buddies or whatever?" Like how amazing would that be? You know, those are the people who have your best interests at heart, the ones that want that. And the, the final point on this is, um ... And this goes for all behavior change. It also goes for, um ... Again, especially a little bit more so with guys, because they tend to be quite territorial. Um, but as your domain of competence grows, as a guy or a girl, your domain of competence grows, and you start to improve yourself, you're going to hold a very, very harsh mirror up to the bad habits of the people that are around you. And that can cause those people to start to lash out. They can start to say things, because your improvement and your progression makes them feel incredibly self-conscious, incredibly worthless, because you're pulling ahead. You know, like, "Hang on a second. We were, we finished uni at the same time, but you, why, how come you bought a house at 26?" "Oh, well, mate, it's because I haven't had a car on PCP that cost a grand a month for the last four years," or whatever it might be. You know. Or, "Why are you lean?" "Oh, it's because I went to the gym as opposed to just going out and, and having a takeaway every night," or pick whatever domain it is. But especially with alcohol, because it's in- inherently so social, w- a- as you start to move away from people like that, they can start to lash out. And they'll purposefully ... You know, behaviors that go against the tribe are, are, are kind of punished. Uh, they'll start to push you out. But, like, do you want to be friends with those sorts of people? Like the answer is no. And so many friendship groups are just grandfathered in. They're these, like, artifacts of a time gone by. "Ah, well, you know, it's when I used to play rugby." "Bro, you haven't played rugby in a decade."
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like what are you on about? Like the only thing that you and these people have in common is the fact that you once did a thing forever ago, and all that you now talk about is that thing you did forever ago. That's totally fine if you want to live a life that's stuck in the past. But if you want to live a life that's constantly moving forward, then allow the waste men and the waste chicks that you've accumulated along the way, allow them to fall away. And again, as you go sober, as you do any behavior change, start eating more healthily, go to the gym, do whatever it is that you start to do, but specifically with alcohol, as you go sober, you will start to see the world for what it is. And this is why I keep on, uh, referring to going sober as taking the ultimate red pill. Like that you stop seeing Matrix, and you start seeing code. And you realize, "Hang on a second. That guy is actually really, really negative," or, "That girl's actually really, really bad for me," or, "That person's always really negative," because you start to see the world with clear eyes for the first time. You don't ... It's not nerfed by alcohol and all your inhibitions going out the window, you know?
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm. Well, that is quite often one of the hardest elements of change, is looking at your environment and having to sort of potentially slowly m- move away from friendship groups. And, like, I've done it loads. I left uni ... Well, I left school and probably had two friends once I left school, because I changed an awful lot from school. When I left uni, um-
- CWChris Williamson
What was the big, what was the big change?
- BCBen Coomber
Well, the big first change was that I was the obese, fat, acting lad at school, and then I became the fit guy that lost five and a half stone and became a personal trainer. So I completely shifted identity and changed my life. So it was ... Didn't know those people anymore. They didn't know me. Um, and then when I left uni, probably left uni with like five or six people that you keep in touch with. But at uni you got bazillions of friends, but all of those friends are transient, sports teams, clubs, all the rest of it. And, um, I think that's quite often the beautiful thing of life, that friends come and go, experiences happen and they go and, uh, you know, if you have five best friends in your life, like, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, you don't have to have a best friend for 50 years. Like you can do.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BCBen Coomber
I'm not saying that's a bad thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BCBen Coomber
But there's nothing wrong with having, you know, five different best friends, as you evolve through life and you're interested in different things and you have kids and all that kind of stuff. And I think that's fearful for some people, 'cause there's probably a level of self-worth there to say, "Well, what if I don't find a new best friend? What if I don't find a new buddy to go, you know, to the pub with or whatever?" It's almost like, "Well if I leave that friend, will another one come?"
- 32:04 – 34:31
social distancing
- BCBen Coomber
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah. Well it's a scarcity mindset, right? As opposed to an abundance mindset. And, um, I- I totally get it, right? Being on your own is, is a challenge. And I have a, a s- extra amount of sympathy for the people that are listening who are in lockdown that are extroverts now. I'm so fortunate now to be an introvert, because for me, I've been socially distancing for 32 years.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I've been practicing (laughs) social distancing since the day I was born. Um, but I appreciate, and I've had a ni- a lot of messages from people who are saying, "Man, I'm struggling with the lack of social connection here." Like this is, this is really challenging. And to you, my heart goes out. Uh, some easy hacks, FaceTime people more, do Skype calls more, uh, make sure that you're organizing like consistent chats with people all the time to give you that sense of, that semblance of, of like being with people and stuff like that. Um, but on the flip side of that as well, like extroverts have an unfair advantage every other period of life that isn't a pandemic lockdown, um, because you get to network more easily and you tend to go out more and socialize more and stuff like that. So this is, this is a little bit of repayment for that. But, uh, yeah, man, uh, uh, people hold onto friendships, you know. They hold onto friendships that are so bad for them. And, um, I think, I think questioning that, like, why are these people in my life? You know? Like being, uh, taking a minimalist approach, as someone might with their possessions, to their friendships. Because, like two bad friendships is worse than ... I- it is, is very, very bad. Like two bad friendships where you've got two people who are impacting you negatively, that is like leading you astray, maybe, uh, maybe you've got a bunch of buddies who are still party, party boys. Even maybe you're getting towards like your late 20s or your early 30s or whatever, and these guys are still weekend warriors, they're still getting a couple of bags in on a weekend and, "All right, mate, let's go. We're going to the Dockhouse in Leeds this weekend. Like such and such a DJ is playing," or whatever it might be. And you're like, "Yeah, bro. Like, you know, that was fun when we were 22, but you know, I kinda, I kind of actually wanna try and find a missus and settle down now, or I really actually want to try and find a, a, a boyfriend who I, who I, uh, could move in with." Or you could do whatever it might be, right? Like people are scared of leaving those people behind 'cause it's like, "Well, what's out there for me?" It's like there's fucking tons of people that are out there for you. It's just a case of letting go of the ones that you don't need anymore.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- 34:31 – 38:00
escapism
- BCBen Coomber
So when we were chatting on WhatsApp before, um, this podcast, we talked about what I felt my relationship with alcohol was before this.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BCBen Coomber
So we've talked about alcohol in its broadest sense and how people sort of use it, generally escapism, um, and I think escapism is something that I wanna make sure we, uh, include in today's show, 'cause I think that's a fascinating topic. And I don't know what level of escapism is, is healthy, 'cause I think sometimes everyone wants to experience things out of their own body to an extent. It's almost a little bit fun. Um, so my relationship with alcohol, probably have between three and five to six drinks a week. And I sort of said to you, "You know, I think it's a healthy relationship to have like one can of beer." Um, it's quite often like before a meal, with a meal, with the missus. Never have more than two drinks, 'cause I just hate feeling tired the next day. Don't ... I'm not down with any of that. I don't want it to affect my performance. Um, and you were like, "Oh, cool. I wanna ask you a couple of questions about that." 'Cause obviously-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BCBen Coomber
... anyone's relationship with anything is how they wanna deal and manage their own life at any given time. Um, I don't think my alcohol relationship has changed with lockdown. It's literally been exactly the same. Like I didn't have a beer last night, but I had a beer the night before, then a glass of champagne with my wife the night before that. Um ...
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. So why? Why did you have them?
- BCBen Coomber
Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Why did you have the beer? So tell me-
- BCBen Coomber
So-
- CWChris Williamson
Tell me why you had the beer first.
- BCBen Coomber
Yeah, sure. So my three reasons are I absolutely love sort of craft beer, so I never drink the same beer. I always drink a different beer from a different part of the world, all different sours, stouts, IPAs, NEIPAs, all these things.
- CWChris Williamson
What's some of your, what's some of your picks? What's some of your favorites that you've had recently?
- BCBen Coomber
Oh, Jesus. Um ... Oh, there's a lot. Uh, favorites. It's hard when you have a different one every day. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I was gonna say, well you- you're gonna have to remem- You only ever get to see them once and then it's in the bin.
- BCBen Coomber
Yeah, but I literally, I've literally, I've already drunk like 50 beers.
- CWChris Williamson
So where are you getting it from? Have you got like ... Is it like a, a service of some kind, like a subscription service? Or are you just going online and searching like coolipas.com or something?
- BCBen Coomber
Yeah. No, no, no. I've, I subscribe to a company called Beer52 and they send 12 beers every month with a magazine. The magazine's all about the craft beer movement and how it's evolving and-... my brother got me into it, and before that I drunk shitty lager like everyone else. And then he opened up my eyes and I was like, "Mate."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BCBen Coomber
And it's like good wine, you start to enjoy the complexity of it. So I really enjoy just having a beer, like, and exploring beer as a, as a thing. I love the taste. I love bitter tastes. Um, it's my favorite kind of thing.
- CWChris Williamson
The same way as somebody, s- somebody might really enjoy different types of meats or different types of chocolates or whatever it might be.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so I, I, hey, I, I get it, man. Okay, so you had that. And then why did you have the champagne? What was the reason for the champagne?
- BCBen Coomber
Uh, me and the wife wanted to celebrate our daughter being four weeks old.
- CWChris Williamson
Woo-hoo!
- BCBen Coomber
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, man. That's ... Well, I mean, that, that is, that is a, a, a pretty good reason.
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so, you know, I think, and since our discussion last year where you talked about this as well, I think you have a very, it seems, very, um, balanced relationship with alcohol. I don't think that there's anything other than the inherent enjoyment of the taste, and based on what you've said, not the effect, uh, uh, being the reason that you have it. Right?
- BCBen Coomber
So second reason?
- 38:00 – 40:09
afternoon drinking
- BCBen Coomber
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- BCBen Coomber
You know when you used to have sort of afternoon drinking, you'd go out, you know, you'd just get a little bit loose, have a bit of fun, but you don't really affect the next day? So I, uh, my sort of half an hour quite often to myself, especially now, is it'll be 5:30, I'm about to cook dinner, crack open a beer, put on some loud tunes, and I literally dance around the kitchen.
- CWChris Williamson
Dance around the kitchen, man.
- BCBen Coomber
Get ever so slightly tipsy, 'cause it's only one beer, you know, I don't drink a lot these days. And it's kind of like I get a chance to just feel a little bit loose, a little bit like whoop-whoop, and then you sit down for dinner, have a normal conversation, and yet you're even-
- CWChris Williamson
You're sober, you're sober by 8:00 PM or whatever, yeah.
- BCBen Coomber
So, yeah. Yeah. So it's kind of like this like half an hour of escapism, like pure relaxation. I dance around the kitchen. And, you know, when you sort of challenged me on WhatsApp, you didn't challenge me, but I knew you were gonna challenge me. So in my head I was already challenging myself.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BCBen Coomber
And I was like, "But why not?" It was fun. Didn't have any negative side effects. I enjoyed it. Didn't cost a lot. Didn't damage anyone. Put a smile on my face. And I, I was like s- I was trying to pick apart the habit. So, um, yeah, do with that what you may-
- CWChris Williamson
That's two, and then what's number three? Or was that number three?
- BCBen Coomber
Uh, they're my only two reasons.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool. Great. Um, okay. So first off, you're one of the most challenging people to convince to go sober because your relationship with alcohol is not destructive, and also you're very cognizant about the reasons of why you drink. Uh, first off, I would say that you are an outlier in terms of the way that people have a relationship with alcohol. I would wager that a lot of the people that are listening will drink more, more frequently, with less control and more regrets than you do. So anyone that's had a hangover within the last month that ... well, actually it's (laughs) probably, probably a bad shout given that we're in lockdown, but anyone that has hangovers consistency, consistently where they think to themselves, "Oh, god. This sucks," you are choosing for that to happen. There is an asymmetry with drinking, right? I'll g- I'll get back to you in a second. I'm coming for you in a second, Ben, but I'm gonna get the people that are listening first.
- 40:09 – 41:19
asymmetry with drinking
- CWChris Williamson
There's an asymmetry with drinking, right? And you get exponentially increasing suffering the more that you drink, and you get diminishing returns of enjoyment the more that you drink. So if you have five drinks, right? And then you double that to 10, you don't have double the fun as you had when you had five, but you have more than double the hangover. That make sense?
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah? So the curve of one of them goes up like that, and the curve of the other one goes down like that. That, my friend, is called a fucking losing position. If you were a trader and you knew that every trade that you were gonna put on was gonna make a loss, 'cause that's what it is, it is a loss, right? You would be very bankrupt very fast. And people that drink heavily and consistently, uh, especially the ones that aren't doing it consciously, cognizant about it, you're doing that with your health. You're doing that with your health. You're doing that with your consistence, c- consistency within life, your routine, your structure, y- mindset, all that stuff. Uh, right. Now I'm, I'm coming for you, coming back to you. Um, so again, very balanced, which I like. Um,
- 41:19 – 48:11
the Lancet study
- CWChris Williamson
the few remaining arguments that I've got, one of them is from health, okay? So there's a study from The Lancet, and it's the s- the largest comorbidity study of alcohol that's ever been done. There may be a new one by now. This was back in 2017, 2018. Uh, and alcohol was found to be the single largest influence on non-disability adjusted life years for people under the age of 40. What that means is that every drink you have brings you closer to death. At the very best, it keeps your life the same length. There's a- a lot of people, uh, like, wives' tales back in the day of touting around, "Well, there's resveratrol in the red grapes that come into red wine, so actually it's, it's life-lengthening." There is some resveratrol in there. There are also some other antioxidants and things like that; however, that is offset and more by the increased cancer risk. And this is done in a study that covered over 100 territories, covered over, it covered millions of people over years and years and years. Super long form, uh, study. Right? Massive, absolutely massive. And anyone just search The Lancet, L-A-N-C-E-T, uh, alcohol, and, um, the g- the, the numbers are scary, man. So you have to consider am I prepared to shorten my life by however much it's going to be? You don't know how much it's gonna be. Um, am I prepared to shorten my life for the price, uh, to, uh, pay the price of shortening my life for the, the profit of, of having this beer? So that's the first one. Second one is...If you decide to go sober in a world which is telling you to drink, in a society which has completely embraced the norm of drinking and alcohol's not even seen as a drug, and going sober's seen as something that's done by people who have substance addiction problems, if you are able to go sober in that world for an extended period of time and stay disciplined, the deck of cards starts to tumble after that for other behavior change challenges that you come up against. Because if you can go sober, what else can't you do? You can literally do anything that you want, because going sober is very challenging.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Now, it's less challenging than people believe. It's a lot less challenging than people believe, actually, especially once you get going. Same as anything, the most hard, most difficult bit about behavior change is getting over the inertia at the beginning. It's deprogramming all of the existing structures. But once you start to do it, you actually think ... Like, if you can go sober for six months, right, as a young guy or girl, in fact, just as any guy or girl, if you can go sober for six months, what else can't you do? There's not much more in terms of behavior change that people would think is harder than that. "Oh, I need to stop cracking my knuckles. Oh, I need to stop having, like, a piece of chocolate on a night." It's like, bro, you went sober for half a year when the entire planet drinks alcohol. How many people do you think have gone sober for half a year? Like, in the Western, typical Western world, normal people, normal physiology, you're talking single-digit percents of people who go sober at all for more than six months in their entire adult life. So that puts you so much further ahead, right? So that's, that's the second thing. First thing ... What was the first thing? I can't remember-
- BCBen Coomber
Health.
- CWChris Williamson
... the first thing. Health.
- BCBen Coomber
Health, the Lancet report.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Thank you. Second thing, is we've just gone through there. What was that one?
- BCBen Coomber
Uh, just what else can you achieve?
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Deck of cards. Third thing. What's the third thing?
- BCBen Coomber
I hope you're not going to ask me about that because you haven't said it yet.
- CWChris Williamson
I haven't said it yet, no.
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What was the third ... Ah, that was it. That was it. Right. Okay. So two different iterations of the universe. So we've got ... I'm ready to caffeine. Caffeine levels just dipped below where it needs to be, you know? I just need someone to run in with a (clicks tongue) IV. Um, so two different iterations of the universe, right? We've got Ben Coomber in, in Universe 1, we've got Ben Coomber in Universe 2. Everything else is the same. Ben Coomber in Universe 1 continues to drink, Ben Coomber in Universe 2 stops drinking. What is the difference, six months, 12 months down the line between these two people? Now, the main question that you need to ask yourself, like, let's forget the stuff about health, let's forget the stuff about the behavior change, because that's quite long-term, right? If you say, if I ask you this question, to the listeners at home, like, consider it as well, like what would happen if you went sober for six months? What would happen if you drank three nights a week for six months, or two nights a week for six months? Where would you be? Where would you be financially, health-wise, mindset, uh, friends, you know, um, weight, all that sort of stuff? Where would you be in six months' time? Where would you be in 12 months' time? What's the difference between those two? And if you can see, if it makes you ... First off, if it's making you feel uncomfortable that I'm saying this to you, then you really, really need to consider what your relationship with alcohol is like. Because the reason that you're feeling uncomfortable, the reason you've got that visceral response in your stomach and it makes you feel, "Ah, fuck this guy. Fucking Love Island prick. What's he on about?" Like, that's because you know that the real truth is that you would be a better version of you in six months' time if you stopped drinking. Um, and that, you can then layer back on, "Okay, let's compound this down the line. How much better would my approach, my belief in behavior change be? How much more could I achieve in the future? I have more time, money, and calories to spend on things that I truly care about." Now, those are ... Almost all of people's problems in the 21st century come from either too much or a lack of those three things, time, money, and calories. And that's what I refer to in Six Month Sober as the key three. So it's the key three benefits of sobriety. Um, consistency is another one, but I didn't want to call it core four because someone's, uh, someone's already trademarked that. Um, uh, but you've got these things, right, and it's like, look, what would the difference be between those two? So I'll ask you, like, do you think that there would be a marked difference in the way that you operate in six months' time if you decided to cut out the 12 to 24 beers per month? 'Cause, I mean, you know, you'll know what the beers, the beers that you'll be having will probably be, what, 300 cals maybe, 3 to 400 cals each, unless they're a stubby?
- BCBen Coomber
No, they're only a small can, so 150 calories.
- CWChris Williamson
Good. Okay. Okay. So it's-
- BCBen Coomber
So it's not a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah. Not, not, not tons. So, yeah.
- BCBen Coomber
Same as a Magnum mini, bro.
- CWChris Williamson
It's all right. (laughs)
- BCBen Coomber
Same as a Magnum mini, bro. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Fuck, I, I tell you what, Magnum mini is good.
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, so, okay, y- you know what I mean? Like, you can see that, right?
- BCBen Coomber
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's ... Where, where's, where's the difference, or is there a noticeable difference between those two Bens?
- 48:11 – 49:21
financial impact
- CWChris Williamson
- BCBen Coomber
I will go deeper into that, but I don't think so. So financially, not an issue. My beer box is like 32 quid a month. I'm happy with that, like whatever. Um, socially, wouldn't change a lot. There's people in my family that don't drink, there's people in my family that do drink. Everyone's a lifestyle drinker. You know, they'll just have a glass of wine, they'll have a beer. No one drinks to, like, excess in any capacity. When me and my mates go out, we have, like, literally one or two beers. We all drive, like, you know, it doesn't matter. We all enjoy a pint of IPA, that's it, like, we're done. Like, there's no drinking culture in our ... in my friendship group. Um, would it change my enjoyment and the level of escapism? Ever so slightly, but that's because alcohol, you know, just relaxes your body, it, it heightens things.It doesn't ever impact on my sleep because I don't allow it to. Like, I literally have a, a, a stop gauge. Like, if I'm in a pub and someone says, "You want a third beer?" like, I'm, I'd literally just walk out the door because I know what that means for me. So, I don't think so. But I will explore and go deeper on that in case I'm giving the answer that I want to give.
- 49:21 – 50:56
what is my truth
- BCBen Coomber
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. And again, we, we loop back to your discussion with, from you and your therapist, which is, what is my truth, right? Because a lot of the time, and we're kind of going real meta with this for people that are maybe a little bit more new to behavior change, but, um, in the, in the simplest way possible, you don't necessarily know what your brain, what is best for your body, and also your brain is really good at telling you lies that you want to believe. So, a lot of the time, you will give yourself a reason, which is the first reason that comes to mind or the most convenient reason that comes to mind, which is a proxy, a very convenient proxy for the truth. Super easy to swallow, doesn't actually ask you the hard question. And what you're doing there is you're trying to unearth, you're trying to strip off all that ego.
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Get rid of all that and say, "Right, okay, no, no, no, yeah, that's Ben, that's what the first, that's the first answer you gave. What's the real answer?" That might be the same, but it might not. And again, for the people that are listening, this is something that you should consider, right? Are you giving yourself the easy answer? Are you telling yourself just what you want, essentially telling yourself what you want to hear and then passing that off as the truth and being like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Fucking..." I don't know, that one about taking from Love Island. Um, so again, my main point here is that you are the outlier amongst most people's drinking habits. Like, if you were to say to people, "Do you spend more or less than £30 a month on average on alcohol?" huge swaths of people are gonna be well above that. 30 quid is like a round of Jagerbombs in London, you know?
- BCBen Coomber
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, uh,
- 50:56 – 52:11
how much do you spend on alcohol
- CWChris Williamson
and it's like one drink in New York. I was in New York a year ago today, so I'm sad. Um, but you know what I mean? Like, it's, it's, the, the financial thing, big difference. The fact that you have your, um, drinking under control because you've got hard lines in the ground. So, um, let me just pivot for a second, 'cause that's a really good point actually, to give people some tacit takeaways on how they can start to control their own drinking. So, uh, first off, if you wanna have a, a course that will guide you through it, sixmonthssober.com/podcast will take you to, uh, everything that we've spoken about. But, um, one of the easiest ways to think about your drinking habits is to do exactly what Ben's done and to set what I call bright lines. It's known in behavior change as bright lines. And it is, um, a rule that you stick to no matter what. And the reason that that works especially well with alcohol is that alcohol is what I've termed an inhibition reduction echo chamber. It means that every drink you have makes not having a subsequent drink more difficult. We've all been there, right? One drink turns into two, turns into five, turns into a bottle of wine, turns into a kebab and a scrap at 3:00 in the morning and wake up with a hangover and all that stuff. You know, like, classic. Classic. I do, I, I was just going, I just popped out and ended up out-out.
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You know, like that- that
- 52:11 – 53:51
do what youve done
- CWChris Williamson
classical, like, comedy sketch. So, like, the easiest solution for this is to do what you've done, and you've stumbled upon what I consider, as someone who's living in this space, to be the most effective way to control drinking if you're not going to go totally sober. Um, I still think that because of the health effects, because of the fact that it sets you up for strong behavior change long-term, uh, and also because y- y- the two different versions tend, will almost always tend toward the person that goes sober being further ahead, um, I still think that a period of focused sobriety is good. But if you're just going to reduce, um, then that's the way to do it. The way to do it is that. And I, you know, I have to kind of... The elephant in the room is that I've seen a million people go into my club nights. So, I am both judge, jury, executioner, marketer, and guy stood on the front door of the courthouse letting everybody in. Um, m- my entire industry, my business, the house is paid for by people coming to my club nights and getting drunk. And I, a lot of the time, people, uh, bring up a, what they might see as a little bit of a contradiction in, "Well, how can you be a club promoter and also be an advocate for productive sobriety or elective sobriety as it's called?" I'm like, "Well, I don't have a problem with people drinking." I actually think that it's a very important rite of passage, especially for young people. You know, you need to know, you're 20 years old. Like, people message all the time, "Hey, bro, love the podcast. I'm 20 years old, thinking of doing Six Month Sober. What do you think?" I'm like, "Mm, maybe do the, like, the 28-day or the 90-day thing if you want, but being honest, you've probably still got a lot to learn from being drunk." You need to know what it's like to have an argument
- 53:51 – 56:36
its a rite of passage
- CWChris Williamson
with your mate at 3:00 in the morning and lose your keys in Manchester.
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you need to know, right? Because that is a representative experience which allows you to relate to people when you're older. Like, you will have, especially as someone who played sports, like, when you were at uni and all this sort of stuff, you'll have just endless numbers of these stories and it's kind of... It is a rite of passage, it's par for the course. You kinda gotta have it, right? Now, there's a, a more societal change question where you could say, "Well, could we get rid of alcohol altogether? Should we potentially make it illegal?" If alcohol was introduced today, it would be a class A in terms of toxicity, addiction, all that sort of stuff. I mean, that's, that's quite scary in itself. But the societal change thing, it ain't happening, right? Once, once something's got brought in and the values have been reduced down, which they have, they don't get taken back. So, alcohol's not going anywhere. We're not gonna have another, uh... What was that thing? What was that thing in America where they got rid of it all?
- BCBen Coomber
Prohibition.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, Prohibition. Um, so you need to drink, bizarrely, actually to have, like, those relatable experiences that take you through later life. My problem is seeing someone who still drinks like a 20-year-old at 40 years old, 50 years old.... because all the work that they've done with mind and body and spirit throughout the week, you know, they've got themselves to the gym, they've just about got over the hangover on a Monday from the weekend, and they've got themselves in the gym and, "Oh, well, I'm eating right, and I'm doing this, that, and the other. And I've made these sacrifices, right? I've done sacrifice throughout the week. I've worked hard." And it gets to Thursday, and they're thinking, "Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting it. I'm getting my... I'm feeling better. My mind's feeling better. I'm feeling fresh." And it gets to a Friday, and they think, "I've worked so hard this week, better reward myself with two heavy nights out that reset all of the progress and the sacrifices that I made during this week." And seeing someone repeat that cadence for a decade or two decades or three decades is a tragedy to me. Like, it makes me so sad, man. Like, especially coming from... I'm from Stockton-on-Tees. So it's like the- the arse end of Middlesbrough, which is, you know, hardly like the most affluent area in the world anyway. And to see... I- I just... I- I used to see these- these people who had so much potential, right? And who- who the fuck are you to judge on what people choose to do with their lives? I'm like... Don't get me wrong, like, people can choose to do whatever they want, but I don't think they're choosing. I think that they're taking the path of least resistance, which is just a groove that's been cut from when they were a kid, and then they've grown up and they've never decided to deprogram this- this desire to drink. They've never decided, "Ah, well, I'm actually going to see if I'm choosing to drink or if I'm just doing it because it's what people do." And, um,
- 56:36 – 57:41
it makes me sad
- CWChris Williamson
yeah, man, it makes me, it makes me sad. You know? It makes me sad that we've got... We've got a world where, um, some brilliant people could be a lot happier, uh, if they hadn't continued to reset their progress every single weekend with a couple of heavy nights out. And it's like, you get one shot at life, like one shot to get everything right, to experience the things you want to experience, to be with the people you want to be with, and you're choosing to take something, and it's not even enhancing the situation. Like, if you were to choose something, I don't even know what the drug would be. Maybe, I guess maybe like caffeine, perhaps, that would make you more, more present, more focused onto the... Obviously not too much. Um, but alcohol actually, bizarrely, it- it's memory loss. It's nerfing, uh, your emotions. It's sedating you and making you go to sleep. It's doing all of these things. And, like, just to finish this section here, there's a concept called Living with the Edge, um, and
- 57:41 – 1:13:55
living with the edge
- CWChris Williamson
this is, this is something that's q- quite interesting, and this is actually coming straight out of the Six Month Sober course. So, "If you go through life leaning on alcohol for support by using it to make stressful times less bad and good times more numb, you will lead a life completely void of edges. Now, edges are dangerous if you fall off them, but they're also the most exciting place to be. Standing near that edge is when you learn the most, you make the most memories. Looking back on your life, you'll find that you spent all your time in the middle 50% of experience richness. That will be a very dull place to be." So, some, some things for you there, some thoughts.
- BCBen Coomber
So, you know I said I had three reasons? I've just remembered the third now you've-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- BCBen Coomber
... read that out.
- CWChris Williamson
Hit me.
- BCBen Coomber
So firstly, I've always had rules. So part of this for me comes down to what else people want to experience in their lives. When I was at uni, I went out three times a week without fail at uni. Monday night was a fucking blinding night with sugar.
- CWChris Williamson
Where did, where did you go to uni?
- BCBen Coomber
Hull.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cool.
- BCBen Coomber
Great nightlife, dead cheap. Anyway, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Attic? Attic in Hull? Is it Attic?
- BCBen Coomber
Yeah, yeah, yeah. A-
- CWChris Williamson
Would have been like a lava ignite or whatever when you were there?
- BCBen Coomber
Yeah, yeah. A- Attic, didn't go there much because it was a bit more kind of like emo rock sort of...
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Got you.
- BCBen Coomber
You know, I've always been more electronic. Uh, Wednesday night was sports team. So that, again, that was a rite of passage.
- CWChris Williamson
Classic.
- BCBen Coomber
You know, lads, lads, girls, girls, girls.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BCBen Coomber
Um, no regrets there. And then Thursday night was the big sort of dancy club, get dressed up, have a good time.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- BCBen Coomber
But I'd always say to myself, at 2:00 AM, as soon as I get that vibe the party's dying off, I'm out. I used to walk home with a liter of water because everywhere was like a 20-minute walk in Hull. I used to walk home with a liter of water, grab a grilled chicken kebab on the way home and-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Ben. Ben, you do realize how unrepresentative your relationship-
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... with alcohol is though, right? Like there's no one listening that's going, "Yeah, yeah, that was me at university."
- BCBen Coomber
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Everyone's going, "What a fucking freak." Like, you know, that's, that's not how people live their lives.
- BCBen Coomber
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
And again, it's-
- BCBen Coomber
But my point is, if you create those rules, you can live between both extremes. So I'd be the guy that was up at seven o'clock in the morning, I'd go to the gym, then I'd go to uni, then I'd go and work on my business in the afternoon at uni.
Episode duration: 1:16:21
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode LCu3YhcMNPk
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome