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David Icke, Conspiracies & Cuddle Club | Michael Malice | Modern Wisdom Podcast 159

Michael Malice is an author, political commentator & podcaster. In case you didn't know, me and Michael are now best friends after our first episode a few months ago. So I got him back on to have a catch up. No agenda, just us talking about whatever we've been thinking about recently. Expect to learn what life is like in New York City during lockdown, whether London Real should have been allowed to record their David Icke episode, how to receive a compliment, why kindness is so important and Michael's views on motivation, positivity & staying resilient during challenging times. Get Surfshark VPN - https://surfshark.deals/MODERNWISDOM (Enter Promo Code MODERNWISDOM for 83% off & One Extra Month Free) Extra Stuff: Buy Michael's Book - https://amzn.to/31soCH7 Follow Michael on Twitter - https://twitter.com/michaelmalice Take a break from alcohol and upgrade your life - https://6monthssober.com/podcast Check out everything I recommend from books to products - https://www.amazon.co.uk/shop/modernwisdom #michaelmalice #davidicke #londonreal - Listen to all episodes online. Search "Modern Wisdom" on any Podcast App or click here: iTunes: https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Spotify: https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn Stitcher: https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/modern-wisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: modernwisdompodcast@gmail.com

Michael MaliceguestChris Williamsonhost
Apr 13, 20201h 9mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:58

    Pandemic reality check: people and governments acting more mature than expected

    1. MM

      The fact that, uh, people have been, by and large, coming together, keeping their spirits up worldwide, that's not how the movies play out. The movies play out that as soon as this happens, the governments have to come in and crack down. They're going door to door, rounding people up or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And it's been a while, and I am, I'm shocked by how mature everyone is, and glad how mature everyone is being. And frankly, I'm also shocked and delighted by how much the politicians are keeping it together. How there is a lot of, "All right, let's ..." You know, Italy's calling the US, they're calling Boris, they're calling South Korea, President Moon. They're like, "All right, what do we need to do? What's working over there? What's working here?" And there's a very ... And, and they're also being, other than obviously China, as transparent as possible. "Here's what we're doing. Here's the numbers. Here's what's working for us. Here's not what's working for you." And I think that makes people feel a lot like, all right, they're on it.

  2. 0:58 – 1:47

    Season five of the friendship: bridging the gap and what Malice learned

    1. CW

      Michael Motherfunkin' Malitz in the building. How are you?

    2. MM

      Oi, brother. Yeah, good to be here. Or Guv'nor, I think I saw something there.

    3. CW

      Cup of tea, Guv'nor. How are you?

    4. MM

      (laughs) Yes, rather. (laughs)

    5. CW

      So, I feel like we need to bridge the gap between our first episode and this one, because this is like someone watching season one of Michael and Chris-

    6. MM

      Yes.

    7. CW

      ... and now watching season five of Michael and Chris.

    8. MM

      (laughs)

    9. CW

      And there's a whole bunch of narrative that's gone on. Now we both ... We, we're living together. We own a dog. Um, I've met your parents. I'm considering proposing, all that sort of stuff. And ... (laughs)

    10. MM

      It's been so fun. It's been five seasons.

    11. CW

      (laughs) Season five's getting serious, man. So, um, I want to ask you, what have you learned since we've been friends?

  3. 1:47 – 4:23

    A bizarre novel as a metaphor: ‘Gumption Island’ and off-screen life events

    1. MM

      So, it's funny. I'm going to answer that question in a second. I just finished reading this book, uh, which is called Gumption Island, which is a forgotten book. It came out in 1956 by Felix Morley. He was a Pulitzer winner for ... He was the first one to win a Pulitzer for The Washington Post. Uh, he was one of the founders of the Mont Pelerin Society. Uh, he, uh, he later became a prominent, you know, anti-war, uh, right-winger. And the book, it takes place ... Basically the premise is, there's this, this community in Maryland, in America. They're hit by the Soviets with a weapon, and they're thrown back in time to the dinosaur era. And what's amazing about this book, there's all sorts of action that happens off-screen, like you were just mentioning. And I'm reading it, and I'm like, "Did I miss something?"

    2. CW

      (laughs)

    3. MM

      Like, the Russian character marries the daughter of the other prominent character, and you only find this out when they're like, "Well, ever since you guys get married." I'm like, "Wait, when ha ... They were never even dating. I'm going back-"

    4. CW

      Where was the ceremony? Yeah.

    5. MM

      They were never even dating. One of the kids is eaten by a pterodactyl, and it's never mentioned again. I'm like, "Hold ... Isn't this a problem when children are being eaten by anything?" And they'll ... And then there's this whole subplot where the bankers in this community want to have a coup and basically seize control. And, like, five pages later it's like, "Well, ever since we had to impeach blah, blah, blah." I'm like, "W- wait. Th- they, they ... The coup failed?" Like, it's so crazy reading like this. So, what have I learned since we've been friends? You are pro- ... You and I probably chat on a daily basis at this point, I think.

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. MM

      You're probably the closest person in my life who I've never met. Um, and I think, uh, you know, we come at life from, uh, um, probably different perspectives but similar wiring. Um, different, very, very different life experiences, but a similar approach, being, uh, extreme intensity, intellectual curiosity, um, pride yet self-awareness, I think. Maybe we all fail in some of those, maybe not others. So, I think one of the things I have l- Well, you've given me some fitness advice, which has been very useful.

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MM

      Um, but I mean, since this, we became pals, it's this ... Mates, I think they say over there?

    10. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    11. MM

      Uh, this whole virus thing, you know, obviously hit, so that's obviously thrown a number for all of us. You know, know what, the one thing I've learned, uh, I would say, if I had to put to one thing, is that I have a bigger ... This is gonna sound pompous and I don't care. I have a bigger audience than I realized, and that there are people who, when I do crap like this, it actually gives them something to do, so I better get off my ass and do it. Uh, I don't have the space to be, um, kind of in hermit mode.

  4. 4:23 – 6:31

    Unwilling hero vs introvert: showing up for others despite resistance

    1. CW

      I couldn't agree more, man. There's a, uh, an analogy that I use all the time about the hero in the, the mythological stories. And it's like, it's the unwilling hero. The hero has to go and slay the dragon, not because he wants to, but because he can. And because he can, he has to. It's like, if no one else is gonna go slay the dragon, and I said this to you. I, I was ... I can't remember where I was. We were driving somewhere. I had you on Skype, talking away. And, uh, I was like, "Man, like, you have a particular coalition of skill." Like, uh, uh, Liam Neeson, "I have a very particular set of skills." And, uh, you have a very particular set of skills. And if now isn't a time for people who can make their audience feel connected and like they're a part of something, if now isn't the time to do it, during a global pandemic where everyone can't, literally can't leave their house, then when, when is that time?

    2. MM

      Yeah, but for me personally, there's two big issues with that. One is, and I just had to block someone on, on, uh, uh, social media 'cause they were just rolling their eyes. It's, I, I'm an ex- I'm an extreme introvert. Um, I do not do well with groups, which is not, you know, th- Which is ... People misunderstand what introversion is. And also, um, it's the kinda thing where I don't want to think it's ... It's obnoxious to think of yourself as these people you've never met, you're having an effect on their life. It's like, all right, get over yourself. But it's like, well, the data's there, um, so if they, they think this ... 'Cause this isn't how I, um, entertain myself, and this isn't how I get out of my funk. I don't watch podcasts. Um, it's not my thing. I get very, very res- You know, and part of the reason is I'm a talker.... right? And part, so when I have to sit and listen to two people talking, and the more interesting the conversation, the more I want to be engaged in that conversation. So inevitably, it would become a source of frustration rather than, uh, some ... It's, it's, I mean, for me it's a very ... Of all the activities, this is the one where I wouldn't want to be on the bench. Um, I don't know if they have that idiom over there.

    3. CW

      Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    4. MM

      Whatever they have, whatever they have in cricket. (laughs)

    5. CW

      On the sidelines. On the sidelines, yeah, yeah, yeah. On the bench.

    6. MM

      Okay.

  5. 6:31 – 8:31

    Cricket and British political metaphors: when culture doesn’t translate

    1. CW

      Well, there, here's a, here's an interesting thing about cricket for you. So as, I guess kind of similar to baseball, but baseball inherently speeds up the batting process because it's after three strikes or a, a couple of balls, maybe you could have, like, some strikes, some balls or whatever, 10 minutes probably at most. The batter is some ... He's either at base or he's back in the dugout. Whereas there's guys in cricket ... I've played games where one batsman has been at the crease, as it's called, out, out on the field, for days, multiple days that a batsman's done that. And if there's not a lot of other players getting out, that means that especially if you bat down the order fur- further down, you're just sat in a pavilion watching the game unfold. Like, there is no more lackadaisical sport on the planet than cricket. You're just there, like, observing-

    2. MM

      Yeah, one-

    3. CW

      ... observing it happen.

    4. MM

      One of the most annoying things about cricket, and I do have something annoying, is that in 1990 when Sir Geoffrey Howe was turned on Thatcher and he stood up in the House of Commons and he had a speech that took her down days later, and he was just using a cricket metaphor to talk about why she's horrible, she's got to go. And he, it's like, it's like going to the crease only to find out your something has broken your something. And everyone in the House of Commons is like, "Holy crap." I'm like, "I don't know what these words are."

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. MM

      Cre- like crease. Uh, you know. (laughs) So it's just, like, dude, if you're gonna have this speech which is gonna go international, very historic, this is the Judas speech, like, at least have it be universally understood. I don't think cricket is played outside of, like, uh, former British Empire colonies, right? It's not played in, like, France, is it?

    7. CW

      Uh, yeah, it, it is played in France, definitely British colonies, I think, overtakes, like South Africa, Australia, New Zealand-

    8. MM

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... UK. Like-

    10. MM

      I don't think Canada even plays it.

    11. CW

      Mm, not sure. Yeah, maybe not.

    12. MM

      I, I don't think they do.

    13. CW

      I don't think, uh-

    14. MM

      I'm very big at Canadian culture.

    15. CW

      I'm not sure if Americans have the patience for cricket, man. Like, it's-

    16. MM

      Well, do now.

    17. CW

      (laughs) Fucking everyone's got the patience for everything. Yeah, exactly.

    18. MM

      Yeah.

  6. 8:31 – 13:54

    Rishi Sunak, crisis leadership, and the toxicity of wishing leaders harm

    1. CW

      Um, I want to, I, I, I want to bring up probably the best story that I've seen recently, which is about Rishi, uh, Rishi Sunak, who is the, uh, British Chancellor. And this is in The Independent yesterday. Your strange crush on Rishi Sunak could actually be a racist fetish. That's, this is-

    2. MM

      Yeah, so-

    3. CW

      ... a real-

    4. MM

      Do you know who Helen, do you know who Helen Primrose is?

    5. CW

      Mm. Pluckrose?

    6. MM

      She ... Pluckrose, yeah, that's what I meant, sorry. Yeah.

    7. CW

      Yes.

    8. MM

      So she, you know, she was the one who, and her, a couple of her friends, they, uh ... I shouldn't say friends, colleagues, I'm sorry. She wrote an article for some, uh, peer-reviewed m- journal just filled with jargon, and it was incoherent, and she got it through. And she's really excellent on, uh, Twitter, and, and she's one of the people I resent who doesn't follow me back, but that's okay. Um, and she made the point that, uh, the social justice subculture, you start with the reverse, with the conclusion and you reason your way backwards. And that's an example she used. She was talking about cashiers. So if you are, uh, kind of don't talk to the minority cashier, you're racist. But if you talk to them too much, you're fetishizing them. Uh, so that you can't win. And this is an example. Like, so if you don't like a mi- um, person who's a minority in power, you're obviously prejudiced. But if you do like them, you clearly like them for the wrong reasons and you just can't win. I don't know who this person is. Um, they haven't crossed the pond, but, um ...

    9. CW

      So it's the guy who is, for a period, was going on TV. It's f-

    10. MM

      Let me look him up. Rishi?

    11. CW

      R- Rishi Sunak. He's the British chancellor. He's the man who's in charge of our budget at the moment. He's the guy that went on TV and said, "We are finding-"

    12. MM

      Ah, I see him.

    13. CW

      "... three-"

    14. MM

      Oh, he's young.

    15. CW

      "... 330 billion pounds. We will be paying everybody 80% of their wages because it is important for us. I, I said we would get it done, and we will get it done. When I meant we will get it ..." Like, dude, he killed it. Like season one of the British government was awesome. Then in season two, they killed off Rishi and Boris because they've been in isolation. So I-

    16. MM

      Care- caref- let's use a choice of words.

    17. CW

      (laughs)

    18. MM

      You know, knock on wood, Boris is still with us.

    19. CW

      Yeah. (laughs) Yeah.

    20. MM

      And, and I, I'm just going to interrupt you, I'm sorry. I just had this tweet, I go, "I wish for the health of Boris Johnson and Jeremy Corbyn." I know it's circule now, but if a world leader goes down, people are really gonna start freaking out and the consequences there are really, really gonna be disproportionate regardless of whether you think Boris Johnson is the devil.

    21. CW

      Mm. Now the news, it's-

    22. MM

      And it starts-

    23. CW

      Andrew Doyle found a bunch of tweets of people saying, um, "I hope that Boris passes away. I hope that he dies," this, that, and the other. And you think, like, how, just how shortsighted do you have to be for that to be the sort of thing that you decide to go out of your way to type on a keyboard and press send?

    24. MM

      Well, it's two things. Let's, let's be to- let's out- outdo them at their own game, right? Let's, let's be out- out soulless. If that happens, this is going to get people to like the Conservatives more because now they have a martyr.

    25. CW

      Simply.

    26. MM

      He's gonna be retroactively regarded as a hero because we always look at people fondly when they pass than when they're alive. Um, and so this is not going to get you the result that you want. Um, and again, not to mention the social unrest that will happen as a consequence. So I, uh, there is this ... One of the greatest essays I've ever read online, in fact, I could probably name only five essays that I've read online that are, like, super, is by Slate Star Codex-... and he had this piece called I Can Tolerate Anything Except the Out Group. Are you familiar with this?

    27. CW

      No. Meditations on Moloch by Scott Alexander on Slate Star Codex is probably the best thing I've read in the last two years.

    28. MM

      Yeah. He's... So this piece is a masterpiece, 'cause he went through social media and he compared people's reactions to when Thatcher died to when bin Laden died, and he pointed out that when Thatcher died, you know the song Ding Dong the Witch is Dead is in the charts. And when bin Laden died, there were plenty of people who were like, "Come on, this is a human being," even though he was evil. And this dissonance, he points out, uh, is similar, I don't think he uses this analogy, to the uncanny valley, uh, the idea that when mannequins or, you know, cartoons become a little too lifelike but a little not lifelike enough, that little spot, it's actually very disturbing, as opposed to when they look exactly like humans or they look like cartoons. And it's like when someone is close to us but just a little off, we are much more put off at, at them and are much more hateful than if someone is completely, you know, outside the fold.

    29. CW

      Mm. Yeah, it's a, it's a weird one, man. The, um, the way that people have been reacting. But yeah, okay, let's not use the word kill off. They got rid of them from season two, so I'm hoping on Monday season three of the British Government restarts, and, uh, I'm hoping that they bring them back, that they do like King in the North type Game of Thronesy stuff.

    30. MM

      I, I'm just really sad that Rebecca Long Bailey didn't get the nod, 'cause I was a huge fan of hers, 'cause she's a real life Titanic McGrath. Um, and she was saying how she s- she li- ver- this is her line, that she's, uh, inequality keeps her up at night. And it's like, uh, uh, I mean, this is, it, it would have been fascinating to see, because I feel like Boris Johnson and her are both kind of caricatures of people and a, a certain political stance.

  7. 13:54 – 18:58

    David Icke on London Real: COVID denial, 5G claims, and censorship backlash

    1. CW

      Yeah, man. Um, the next thing, so there's only two things really that I've got to bring up, but the second one is this David Icke interview on London Real. Did you, have you seen anything about this? If I hadn't brought it up to you over message, would you have seen anything?

    2. MM

      I, and I told you over o- I, I thought it was pronounced London Real. Isn't there a city called Real Madrid?

    3. CW

      Real.

    4. MM

      Is that a sports team?

    5. CW

      So Real Madrid is the team from Madrid in Spain.

    6. MM

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      Yeah. London Real.

    8. MM

      So I assumed London Real was something to do with that, like maybe it's their British... I'm not even joking.

    9. CW

      Br- Brit- the British fan base for-

    10. MM

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... Real Madrid. Okay. No, it's, I mean, it would actually probably be more fun if it was that. But let me-

    12. MM

      Were there... Are there... I'm sorry to interrupt you. Are there British fans of teams from other countries?

    13. CW

      Yes, some.

    14. MM

      Okay.

    15. CW

      Not a lot. I think when you come from the country where the top flight of soccer, football, is played, people, they get sucked in. But I'm, there will be, I'm sure. I've got a couple of friends I know that support, um, some French teams and a couple that support some... I think it would tend to be that you would have a preference when other foreign teams were playing each other.

    16. MM

      Sure.

    17. CW

      But in domestic games, you'll have your own team as well.

    18. MM

      So who's the most popular foreign team in the UK, would you say?

    19. CW

      Oh, that is a good question. Juventus perhaps, uh, Atlético Madrid, Real Madrid, um, Bayern Munich maybe. There's some fo- there's football fans just screaming at their phone, into their AirPods at the moment telling me what it is. But I think, I think they would probably be up there. All the European ones. I don't think anyone's gonna be loving like LA Galaxy or something like that. I don't think-

    20. MM

      Okay.

    21. CW

      ... that there's gonna be. Uh, so yeah. David Icke. You know who David Icke is?

    22. MM

      No.

    23. CW

      Okay. David Icke is a British... how, how would you even call it? Conspiracy theorist.

    24. MM

      Oh, I do kn- I thought it was sp- I thought it was pronounced Icke. I'm not s- because we have someone named Harold Ickes here.

    25. CW

      Okay.

    26. MM

      He's the one with the li- The Lizard People with-

    27. CW

      Lizard People.

    28. MM

      ... Colorado.

    29. CW

      Correct.

    30. MM

      Yes, yes, of course.

  8. 18:58 – 30:24

    Compliance vs conspiracy: emergency powers, historical precedent, and short-term realism

    1. MM

      Well, that's, that, you know, it's funny, he, so he had the exact opposite reaction that I had. My reaction is no one cares what you have to say, uh, so I can just sit on my ass and be fine. Obviously he's got a much bigger audience than I do, and his reaction goes everyone cares what I have to say, and if I don't do this, this is a kind of world threat to the world. Um, ah, w- this hasn't crossed over here. Uh, I am, I, I don't know about this being a free speech issue. What I am concerned about, and I've talked to many of my friends, you know, I'm, I'm an anarchist and, and very, very skeptical of government power, but we are all s- uh, very happy that in every country, uh, it hasn't become rioting, uh, it hasn't become civil unrest. That, yeah, sure, these laws are in place, but I think pr- uh, people are more than happy to do this voluntarily. Um, and I'm shocked and delighted how much, 'cause we've all seen... The thing that I was having a very big issue with this whole situation was transitioning. I'm a New Yorker. I've been here all my life. And you and I talked about this on the phone how it was very difficult for me psychologically as a New Yorker to see the streets being empty. It's something I just couldn't, uh, just, I felt like I was in a movie or a crazy person, and there were movies like I Am Legend or Vanilla Sky where you've seen this, but to see it in reality, it just was a disconnect, and this had... You laugh, but this really had really bad psychological, uh, consequences. So, and no, you're right to laugh. (laughs) But at the same time, I am e- glad, and the fact that this happened so quickly is also, that there was no real transition, it's overnight, like, don't get in your house, don't come out. The fact that, uh, people have been by and large, uh, coming together, keeping their spirits up worldwide, that's not how the movies play out. The movies play out that as soon as this happens, the governments have to come in and crack down. They're going door to door rounding people up or whatever, blah, blah, blah, putting e- a- and I know in, uh, South Korea they're thinking about putting these bracelets, right, and so on and so forth. And we haven't gotten there yet, but it's been a while, and I n- I'm, I'm shocked by how mature everyone is and, and glad how mature everyone is being. And frankly, I'm also shocked and delighted by how much, uh, the politicians are keeping it together, how there is a lot of, all right, let's, you know, Italy's calling the US, they're calling Boris, they're calling South Korea, President Moon, they're like, "All right, what do we need to do? What's working over there? What's working here?" And there's a very... And, and they're also being, other than obviously China, as transparent as possible. "Here's what we're doing. Here's the numbers. Here's what's working for us. Here's not what's working for you." And I think that makes people feel a lot like, all right, they're on it.

    2. CW

      Yeah. I sh- I couldn't agree more, man. Like, the response has been surprisingly mature...

    3. MM

      Yeah.

    4. CW

      ... from everyone. From public and government.

    5. MM

      And, uh, ah, a- and of course there's people online who are rolling their eyes right now being like, "How can you say that given X, Y, and Z?" Well, yes. I'm saying that considering (laughs) that information that you also have. Given that negative stuff and the positive stuff, I am, uh, the fact that we're not in Lord of the Flies, the fact that we're not in Mad Max, the fact that we're not in, you know, we had riots in, in Baltimore, we had riots in St. Louis, uh, not that long ago. The fact... Obviously it's harder to riot when there is disease around, but rioting is not a rational... Like, you know, you don't sit at home, you're like, "All right, when would it be most feasible to riot," right?

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. MM

      It's, it's, that, it's a powder keg. Uh, here's another one: the fact that we haven't had home invasions, uh, things like this, uh, and, and people getting, God forbid, raped in their homes. I mean, this is sit- sitting ducks. Um, that is, uh, really, uh, gratifying. And this is another reason I- I'm, you know, I'm a hardcore optimist, and I'm a hardcore optimist not because it's my nature. I'm Russian born. It's, my nature's the opposite. I'm a hardoc- hardcore optimist 'cause I look at the data. And if you're gonna be a cynic and you looked at the situation now, you'd predict, "Oh, people are gonna be starving, blah, blah, blah." It's like, no, no, no. People are really bending over backwards to maintain this social order.

    8. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    9. MM

      Now, we'll see how long this lasts, but it's lasted quite a bit of time already. Uh-

    10. CW

      So-

    11. MM

      ... and, as well as can be expected.

    12. CW

      ... the, the thing that I, that is becoming increasingly challenging for me, and I don't know whether this is just who I'm exposed to online or some of this stuff, is it's an easy step from that to the conspiracy theorist types that believe there's a second motive to everything that's going on for them to say, "Well see, this just proves how compliant the public is when the government decide that they're gonna shove their hard rod of fucking policy up your... They're eroding your rights. They're taking away this, they're taking away that." And you're like, "Dude, fucking give it a rest." Like, what's your alternative? Genuinely, what is your alternative to this? Would you rather that people were... So Brian Rose, again, like, the guy is brazenly walking around London filming videos. 10:30, "Hey guys. 10:30 PM. London Real offices. Just finished up here. Just wanted to give you an update." It's like, Brian, mate, there is a fucking government-

    13. MM

      Oh, that's why you sent me that video.

    14. CW

      There was a-

    15. MM

      And now it clicked.

    16. CW

      Yeah.

    17. MM

      Okay, yeah, yeah. You sent me that video. I didn't understand what I was looking at.

    18. CW

      No, no, no.

    19. MM

      Oh, okay. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah.

    20. CW

      I sent you, I sent you a video of him by day...

    21. MM

      Yeah. Yeah.

    22. CW

      ... on the rooftop, on the rooftop-

    23. MM

      Yeah.

    24. CW

      ... of government, of, uh, London Real's offices saying...... just finished a workout here, London Real HQ-

    25. MM

      Yeah.

    26. CW

      ... done some kettlebells, some sprints, bit of breakdancing in the stairwell. Can you imagine coming down the stairs to find Brian Rose from London Real doing breakdancing on the landing? "Brian, can you stop fucking power windmilling, please? I'm trying to get to the..." So, I mean, that's just ... M- you're not above the law. And he keeps on saying, uh, one of the things he keeps bringing up is, "Um, we have this little thing in America called the First, th- uh, First Amendment. Yeah? The Constitution." I'm like, "The elephant in the room, Brian, is that you are not in America."

    27. MM

      Yeah.

    28. CW

      Like, you're in the UK. We have hate speech laws over here, for better or for worse, most people would say for worse. But Count Dankula, all these people that have been, you know, criminal records, locked up, et cetera, et cetera for this. And this is at the same time, so the chief constable of Northham- Northamptonshire Police says-

    29. MM

      Wait, that's a real person? That sounds like a title that we would make up to make fun of you. The Chief Constable of the what police?

    30. CW

      Northamptonshire Police.

  9. 30:24 – 33:32

    Compensatory control: why uncertainty breeds conspiracies and pattern-seeking

    1. CW

      You just think about getting out. Um, there's this concept by Matthew Syed that I, I have to tell you about, right? It's called compensatory control. Have you heard about this?

    2. MM

      No.

    3. CW

      Cool. Why conspiracy theories and demagogues spread in times of worry and uncertainty. So this is Matthew Syed's piece in The Times.

    4. MM

      Oh, can I guess if, what his answer is?

    5. CW

      Yes.

    6. MM

      Uh, and let's see if I'm right, okay?

    7. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    8. MM

      Are you saying he's on the level, this guy?

    9. CW

      What's that mean?

    10. MM

      I mean, are you saying that what he's saying actually supports the truth or he's using it as an example of something's wrong?

    11. CW

      Yes. Yes is correct.

    12. MM

      Is he going to say that in times of panic, any kind of explanation that's kind of an Occam's razor that gives people a sense of certainty is enormously emotionally reassuring?

    13. CW

      You are a very clever man. You are... Oh, yeah. Pat on the back.

    14. MM

      He's right. He's absolutely right.

    15. CW

      Man, let me hit you with this. So-

    16. MM

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      Psychologists have conducted experiments to shed light on why people lose, or at least suspend rationality. One experiment asked people to imagine going to a doctor to hear an uncertain medical diagnosis. Such people were significantly more likely to express the belief that God was in control of their lives.

    18. MM

      Yeah.

    19. CW

      Another asked participants to imagine a time of deep uncertainty when they feared for their jobs or the health of their children. They were far more likely to see a pattern in meaningless static or to infer that two random events were connected. This is such a common finding that psychologists have given it a name, compensatory control. When we feel uncertain, when randomness intrudes upon our lives, we respond by reintroducing order in some other way. Superstitions and conspiracy theories speak to this need. It is not easy to accept that important events are shaped by random forces. This is why, for some, it makes more sense to believe we are threatened by the grand plans of malign scientists than some chance mutation in a silly little microbe.

    20. MM

      Yeah. And, and, and there, there's a couple of examples of this. I've given talks on networking and I tell the kids, I go, "If you're... Don't aspire to excellence, it's not going to be possible at your age with your skill set. Aspire to competence. If you're competent, you're at the 80th percentile." And it, and I, the example I use is, "I would rather you tell me you'll have it on Wednesday and I'll have it on Wednesday than you tell me you'll have it on Monday and give it to me on Tuesday." Doesn't make sense if you think about it, but in other sense, it does reassuringly. I, I, there's a therapist I know, his wife had this disease after 9/11, so on and so forth. People would rather... Like the fight example, right? Like, if you've never been in a fight, what the hell is it? Once you've been, it sucks, but it's, it, the fear, the irrational fear is not there. A disease, they found, yeah, people would rather say you've got leukemia than go on for years and they don't know what's wrong with you.

    21. CW

      They don't know what you've got.

    22. MM

      Yeah. And that's just how we're wired. And I can... You, we could all understand if we think about it.

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

    24. MM

      Like, I mean, yeah.

    25. CW

      And it's seductive. We want to bring order to chaos.

    26. MM

      Yeah. What about like a relationship? Like what's going, like, uh, what's, what was that Facebook thing? It said it's complicated. Like we'd rather be like, "All right, it's done" a lot of times when, then when things are ambiguous, it's like, "Okay, I can't even deal with this. I have to break it up," as opposed to, "I don't know what the situation is."

  10. 33:32 – 36:37

    Open loops and productivity: Zeigarnik effect, writing habits, and ‘time travel’ self-care

    1. CW

      Have you heard of the Zeigarnic effect? Do you know what that is?

    2. MM

      No, what's that?

    3. CW

      Okay, so it's a, just how the brain has open and closed loops, and it's a writing tool actually, which might be interesting for you to know considering that you might start writing again soon. Um, and this was used by, oh my God, a very famous author, and there's gonna be people shouting at the, at the podcast again saying who it is. Very famous author back in the day who would use this. Essentially the brain doesn't like open loops and it does like closed loops. However, open loops can be manipulated. So for instance, let's say that you do a day of writing and you finish your session at night. You could finish the sentence one word in rather than at a full stop, because then when you come back to it the next day, that loop's open rather than closed. So you just continue an open loop rather than having to reopen a brand new one that's on the back end of something that's being closed off. It's the same reason why we don't like, like you say, um, cliffhanger endings at the end of, uh, of TV series. They're so compelling. We need to watch the next season of Michael and Chris because we want to know what happens next, right? We need to know. That's, that's what gets them. Zeigarnic effect, open loop, closed loop.

    4. MM

      That's interesting. I, I, that's actually speaks to how I write, and then we're gonna talk about your shirt 'cause I'm very curious. Um, I, when I write, I do three pages at a session, and then I force myself to stop.

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. MM

      So that means I never have writer's block because I have more in the can tomorrow and I know I'm not gonna have to... I'm picking up where I left off.

    7. CW

      Do you have a-

    8. MM

      So-

    9. CW

      Do you have a note taking for like, you, you might have all of these ideas right now and kind of forget. Do you just sort of throw them down on a, on a specific paper?

    10. MM

      Oh, I've got a separate document, or it, if I have like a future scene or future section in the book, I'll hit return twice and I'll write that. And then when I go back and edit, I'll, I'll put the space in between. So-

    11. CW

      That must be, that, that must be beautiful to, to reach a section that you need to write and find that a past version of yourself has already written it for you.

    12. MM

      Oh, yeah.

    13. CW

      Like a present from past Michael to, to present Michael.

    14. MM

      Uh, I, I'm, I've been doing a lot of this time travel, uh, kind of thinking. I had this tweet, which I, I thought was really helpful, which is, if you're someone who's dealing very poorly with isolation, if you have suicidal ideation or depression or anxiety, I said, "Write a note to yourself when you are, uh, gonna be freaking out 'cause this is your rational self traveling in time to talk to your future self, and you'll know that this person is telling the truth in writing." And I said, and you and I did this, I said, "Also, make a promise to someone that if things get really bad, you'll hit them up." Uh, and you'll know, you made that promise, things are bad, I gotta talk to this person before I do anything crazy. Um, and when we do these notes... Another thing is, I'm going to be a little frivolous, is with, um, like maintaining your, if you're on a regimen, you're eating a certain way, the reason diets don't work is if it's, if willpower is finite.So if you're constantly having to have, what am I going to eat, what am I going to eat, you're going to, at some point have a disordered thinking and you start eating the wrong thing and then it becomes a spiral. Whereas

  11. 36:37 – 42:13

    Cuddle Party vs Cuddle Club: boundaries, contact hunger, and training ethos

    1. MM

      if you tell yourself, this is what you're eating for this week, you know no matter what you're feeling in that moment, I was in my right mind on Sunday, so I'm going to listen to him. Now I'm going to ask you about Cuddle Club because one of the most profound things I've ever learned was from my friend Marsha, who ran something called Cuddle Party here in the States. And what Cuddle Party was, and it was a big joke, although when people thought about it for 30 seconds, they realized this isn't really a joke, it's actually a great idea, is people would get together and they'd cuddle because physical contact is so important for all of us as human beings. And I asked her, well, how do you, like I mean, doesn't it get like orgy, like, like what happens?

    2. CW

      Sexually, yeah.

    3. MM

      She goes ... Yeah, yeah. She goes, "Well, they have a line like trust the, uh, don't fear the boner," and, and that's, that's kind of funny.

    4. CW

      (laughs)

    5. MM

      But the o- the other line they have is, she says is, "It is incumbent on each of us to establish our own boundaries because people will take, people take as much space as you let them." And I'm like, wow. And when she said that, I think I bring this up all the time, it's so important for all of us, especially on social media to be like, no, no, I'm not dealing with another moment of your BS, because you can't expect that person to respect your boundaries. Now what is Cuddle Club?

    6. CW

      So I'm wearing a T-shirt which on the front and the back says Cuddle Club and it is by Built Up North, which is Paul Warrior, one of my coaches from CrossFit. It's his clothing brand, sports clothing brand, although it crosses somewhere between Supreme, um, Off White, and uh, like a good sports brand, I guess. So this is, this is a, a training T-shirt. This is what I would, I would train in. And Cuddle Club is a concept that they've been throwing around for ages. Um, in fact, they've just donated, I want to say two and a half grand to Mind, which is the, one of the UK's mental health charities, um, from a release, a limited edition release of long-sleeved Cuddle Club tops, same as the one I've got on, uh, so I bought one of those. And it's a reference to people working hard in workouts. This is not fucking Cuddle Club.

    7. MM

      Oh.

    8. CW

      Like you, you don't get, uh ... This is, this wasn't a Cuddle Club, like really nice. This couldn't be further away kind of from your, um, ladies' what sounds absolutely lovely, a lovely experience of people kind of giving each other support and love. This is more like, let go of the fucking balloon. No one's gonna do the work for you. I have a T-shirt in there from the same brand which says, "The magic you are looking for is in the hard work you are avoiding."

    9. MM

      Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's a great one.

    10. CW

      So th- that's what a lot, a lot of this stuff, so shout out Paul Warrior, Jordan and Tim who will be listening who are all pushing this sort of rhetoric when it comes to training. I think it's so cool and it reminds us, especially when it gets to training, we can become, especially if you're slightly cerebral, and a lot of cross-fitters are, um-

    11. MM

      Oh, yeah.

    12. CW

      ... rep scheme, this workout, hours of sleep, I'll track it on my WHOOP band, this is my HRV last night, all this stuff, you kind of forget that there is just a raw animalistic nature to training where you kind of need to go balls to the wall and perhaps give risk, uh, forget risk for a little bit and, and just focus on intensity and have faith that your physiology, uh, that your training, that your movement engrams, your nutrition, everything will kick in at that time. So this is, this is not Cuddle Club. But it's also a funny joke because there's a bunch of boys that work for us who went through a period where they just couldn't have sex. They kept on going back to girls' and girls' houses after a night out, and they were unsuccessful. Um, rebuffed-

    13. MM

      They c-

    14. CW

      ... in one form or another or-

    15. MM

      Aw.

    16. CW

      ... couldn't get it up or whatever it might have been. Uh, and then this T-shirt, I bought the T-shirt at the same time, so it was very timely on like a number of levels.

    17. MM

      Well, that speaks ... Well, let's talk about the flip side of that. That speaks to, there's a great British band I could not adore more, I have a framed picture of theirs signed in my living room, Saint Etienne, I don't know if you're familiar with them, uh, they're a l- they're a club band, um, and they have a song called Soft Like Me, and it's just encouraging people to be soft, but I think a lot of times, and I, I've, I have messages this too, that we need to be kind to ourselves, and we tend to think that if we are relaxing or especially when we're younger, I have a protege and, and he kind of had this, I had to talk him out of it, like whenever I get a paycheck, 10% of that money has to be spent on frivolities. I put that aside 'cause otherwise being self-employed, I remember the lean years, um, not that I'm particularly wealthy now, and I would always rather wait for the train than pay for the cab. And now it's like, that tithe, like you have to throw this money down the drain-

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MM

      ... so that if you're earning money, enjoy it. So I think a lot of times we have trouble confusing am I being kind to myself or am I being lazy? 'Cause the mind is very good at finding excuses not to do the work. It's very good at finding excuses, "I don't go to the gym. You go tomorrow. Play the video game." And that's not what I'm talking about, but it is something, it's very important for driven people to be able to relax, enjoy the fruits of your labors, and, and instead of beating yourself up all the time, uh, give yourself a kindness, 'cause if you are beating yourself all the time because you have this kind of maybe not as good self-esteem, I'm not saying that's your problem, it's not your problem, it's not a problem, well, maybe that person with low self-esteem could use a little kindness and maybe that'll make h- um, his or her life a little brighter. So this is something I think is under- and that's obviously not really the opposite of what they're saying, um, you shouldn't half-ass your workouts, but this is something I think a lot of us could use a little bit more of. And there's also something I'm very opposed

  12. 42:13 – 46:16

    Kindness, cynicism, and learning to receive compliments without deflection

    1. MM

      to in my work, uh, I don't know if it's that way over there, but here in New York and in, in media circles, there's this, um, really s- nasty, sneering cynicism towards any kind of kindness or warmth or friendliness. It's seen as eye-rolling, it's seen as corny, it's, and it's like, no, your, your har-

    2. CW

      Could you, could you give an example?

    3. MM

      Well, like, any kind of, any kind of movie or, uh, kind of expressions of affection, you know, is really kind of like, "Oh, God. Oh, please." It's like, it's like, it's, it's regarded as ridiculous or somehow less than music, right, or movies. If the plot isn't about pathos and about like, you know, depravity and it's just about, like, a, a family having a fun vacation and it's very kind of heartwarming, a lot of times it's not regarded as legitimate, as if they'd gone through, you know, the kid having leukemia and, and Make-A-Wish and so on and so forth. And I hate that attitude. I, I really hate it. I think kindness goes a long way. And here's another example. Social media, right? I've alwa- I'm always against this idea that if something is common, that doesn't mean it's the norm. Uh, just because everyone does something does not mean it's actually how things should be and that it's acceptable. And it's perfectly appropriate on social media to go up to strangers and just call them the nastiest things possible, and it's like, uh, congratulations, you found a moron on, on Twitter. Like, this is your big accomplishment for the day? There's, there's no shortage of them. Whereas, it's, I'm a big troll, as you know, as, as many as listen to this right now. My way that I stick, I've always tried to push trolling to the next level. Uh, and my trolling technique for 2020 I started out is I've been texting and writing messages to friends of mine, really kind things, being like, "Hey, thinking about you today. I just wanted you to know I appreciate you as a person." And they don't know how to react and it freaks them out.

    4. CW

      (laughs)

    5. MM

      And that's just ... So it's win-win for me.

    6. CW

      (laughs)

    7. MM

      They don't know what to do.

    8. CW

      What's happened? Michael, are you okay? Are, are you sure that you're fine?

    9. MM

      Yeah. They're like ... I'm like my ... And I, I tell them the truth, "My life is genuinely better since I've met you." And they're like, "Well, how do I respond?" 'Cause we don't have that space to be kind to one another. Everyone has to have a joke, uh, or dismiss it. And I'm like, that's, that's a little insidious.

    10. CW

      Oh my God. There's so much, there's so much for us to unpack from this. But, you know, people that are listening, here's one thing that I realized I was doing. I was really bad at taking compliments.

    11. MM

      Really?

    12. CW

      I would brush them off.

    13. MM

      Okay.

    14. CW

      So I, I, I had imposter syndrome so bad that someone would say something. They would go out of their way, genuinely go out of their way to say, "Hey man, do you know what it is? I, I really like the way that you ..." pick your arbitrary thing that I do. Open a can of Coke, write words, do your marketing copy. It might have been like, um, a physique compliment back in the day, or it might have been something to do with the business, whatever it might be. And I would, I would say something back like, uh, "Ah yeah, well, you know, like, that's what happens when you're a total prick all the time or when you've got no life outside of the gym," or whatever it might be. Like, and it was ... For people that are listening, think about how you respond to compliments. And if that's the sort of thing that you, that you say, there's a, a couple of implications. The first one is that's because you don't believe that what the other person is telling you is true. That's the reason you do that. And by not needing to accept it, you close the gap between your self-image and what that person is saying. But the more important thing, and this is what really changed it for me, because I wanted to try and find more of a connection with people, and as an only child, this was like a, a weird kind of bridge for me to get over. Um, what I realized was it's really insulting for someone to go out of their way and compliment you, and for you to then-

    15. MM

      It's a vulnerability, yeah.

    16. CW

      ... fucking rebuff it. They've said something really, really kind and nice to you, and you've just thrown it back in their face like, "Fuck you." Like, and that's why a lot of people, and this was me for ages, I would say, "Oh, do you know what it is? I just don't really feel like people care about my work or they don't really like my work." I'm like, "I wouldn't fucking care about your work. Every time someone says something nice to you, you just spit it back in their face."

  13. 46:16 – 51:40

    Being exceptional without pretending: first impressions, YouTuber stereotypes, and Logan Paul’s meta-game

    1. MM

      Yeah. It's, it's actually ... But there's something else. That there, at a certain point, people, uh, when you're certain, uh, standard deviations away from the mean, people don't know how to connect with you. Like, I have a good buddy now and he's like into bodybuilding. And he's at that point where you will notice him, he walks in a room and everyone has some reaction. It's never just nothing, right? And men are often ... feel like, uh, like I, you know, I wrote a book on North Korea. I've been to North Korea. And if it comes up at a party, uh, this happens inevitably. And they're like, "What's your book on North Korea?" They feel the need to just tell me everything they know (laughs) about North Korea. And I'm like, "This isn't a test, h- and you can't win."

    2. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    3. MM

      And it's fine that you don't know or care about North Korea. This isn't how ... But they don't, they're trying to build that bridge between their s- uh, circumstances and mine-

    4. CW

      Wow.

    5. MM

      ... when, when the bridge is already there. So, when guys come up and they feel the need to have this conversation and be all like, not complimentary, more like, uh, uh, almost like s- uh, servile, you know, like, "Oh," blah, blah, blah. Like, uh, he's like, "I don't know how to react because either I come off like a douchebag or I come off ... " whatever. I go, "Just tell them you're compensating for your tiny penis." And when you say it like that, the guy will laugh and it's like, oh, this guy's normal. He just likes working out.

    6. CW

      Well, here's a-

    7. MM

      And-

    8. CW

      This, this is a good, a good point to interject here. Why don't you mention, 'cause I haven't heard you say this and I haven't asked you this, but-

    9. MM

      No, okay.

    10. CW

      ... you, you tweeted one of the most complimentary things that I think anyone's ever tweeted about me after our first podcast. And you said there's only two people i- in my life ever that have, uh-

    11. MM

      The two people who's, who's opinion changed the most after I talked to them-

    12. CW

      Yeah.

    13. MM

      ... was you and, uh, Joey Salads. Yeah.

    14. CW

      What did Joey do? 'Cause I want to know that.

    15. MM

      Joey Salads is an internet, uh, he was like a prankster on YouTube. He's a YouTube personality. He's a total bro, like e- in a, in every way. He came to ... And he was running for Congress. I think he still is. And he came to do my show and I'm like, this guy's gonna be a total moron and I'm gonna completely clown him. And within minutes, he was like, "I don't know about the Fed, I don't know about the taxes. I do know about social media. I think the Republicans need an AOC. I think I could bring that to the Republic-" And I'm like, "Oh." So he wasn't presenting himself as anything other than what he was. He was open about his limitations. And he's like, "Here's how to get laid." Like, he's like, "This is what you gotta do on Instagram," blah, blah, blah.

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. MM

      And he's giving me tips like from a friendly place.

    18. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    19. MM

      And I was like, I had him completely, completely wrong. And when you're coming from that-... a- a- when you have s- it's the expectations game, right? So when I came in, I thought this guy's gonna be a- a joke. And right away, he- he's not that he's being humble, it's that he's being honest. He's like, "I don't know these things." Th- I mean, if, if you were gonna try to play gotcha with me about foreign policy, yes, you'll win.

    20. CW

      Hmm.

    21. MM

      So I was like, "Oh, shit. This guy ... " 'Cause a lot of these YouTubers, you think that they're gonna have their head up their own ass, and I'm sure many of them do. I haven't met many.

    22. CW

      Yeah.

    23. MM

      It was not that way at all. Um, and ever since then, I will always sing his and your praises. It's just like, oh, it's really ... It's, it's just interesting how we come ... And we have to have these heuristics when you're traveling in these circles about, okay, what box is this person probably coming out of? 'Cause you have your Love Island thing. It's like, all right, like, I know this person. It's like, oh no, I don't.

    24. CW

      (laughs)

    25. MM

      Uh, I know what I think is this person.

    26. CW

      An idea. Yeah. A good example of a YouTuber that I think has really taken the red pill on a lot is Logan Paul. Like that guy is operating four orders of effect down from everything that it is that he does. I don't know whether you saw ... Did you see the thing about where he said he was the fastest man on the planet?

    27. MM

      No.

    28. CW

      Did you see this? So he went on, he went on, um, NBC Business. Do they have, like a NBC Business Channel or CNBC-

    29. MM

      CNBC? Yeah, CNBC.

    30. CW

      ... Business. Like so they're talking, and this lady is asking him these questions. Dude, you gotta go back and watch it. It's a m- it's phenomenal. So they're trying to talk to him. I think it must've been just after the tax year had ended or something, and they're trying to say, "So Logan, you've just been rated as one of the top earning YouTubers. Last year, you were, your revenue was 14 million." And uh, he's going, "Yeah. Well, Michelle, you know, I really think I might be the fastest man on the planet. Like I r- I really could be the fastest man on the planet, like you know? I, I ... Definitely the fastest YouTuber, by, by, by a country mile." And he's just going on. And they're g- and she's laughing, so she's quite endeared to it, and it's a semi-good-looking host lady as well.

  14. 51:40 – 56:59

    Normalcy vs uniqueness: choosing honesty over acceptability and persisting through failure

    1. MM

      Oh, yes. So you had this video where you a- are advising people that we all desperately want to be ... We aren't normal, but we wanna be normal. Right? Um, and I think the vast majority of people do not have any independent thought whatsoever, and many of them resent the very idea of independent thought and individuality.

    2. CW

      Yeah, I agree. Um ...

    3. MM

      Oh, okay.

    4. CW

      So I-

    5. MM

      We're on the same page.

    6. CW

      Uh, yeah, I don't, I don't think that that's wrong. I think ... What I get worried about, and that's, this is speaking from personal experience, is, um, individuals that dilute down their own unique offering that they have. Their compilation of-

    7. MM

      Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    8. CW

      ... skills, life experience, background, odd, left-field thought, um, and they choose acceptability over honesty because they want to be well-liked. And there's that quote from my friend George McGill who says, "I'm astounded by how many people want to be exceptional in life, but also want to be well-liked and normal. By definition, being normal, uh, requires you to regress to the mean." Ordinary people-

    9. MM

      Oh, yeah. Yeah.

    10. CW

      Ordinary people get ordinary results. Extraordinary people get extraordinary results. And I think a lot more people become normies through the diluting down and the, the, um, nerfing of the corners and the edges of what makes them interesting, um, because they're scared-

    11. MM

      Well-

    12. CW

      ... of not being accepted.

    13. MM

      Well, that's, uh, uh, that's something that is an existential nightmare, and I think that's something, thankfully, that's decreasing. Uh, because the more that there's people like Rogan and all these other types who are encouraging people to find their own path, and I think now being different in a genuine way. Like, uh, you know, like I, I have this guy who I exchange things with. He's a metalworker. He, you know, he sent me this worry coin that I carry around with me. He's, you know, like people doing cool, awesome things. I'm not saying he's a freak, but he's not normal. Um, the more of that there is, I think, uh, in high school, you know, back in the day, there would be ... It's a lot easier to, uh, isolate and marginalize that person. But now with the internet, it's very, it's much, much, much easier for that person to create an audience and to have people drawn to him. So that pressure, which may historically have been the case, 'cause you're gonna have to work for a company, is really thankfully a bygone thing. And my audience certainly, uh, uh, is very, um, very, very opposed to normalcy and this idea that we should strive to normalcy. Um, and, and so, uh, I, I think, uh, uh I, I think that's very sad. Uh, I think a lot of things also happen is when people are young and their parents are forcing them, uh ... You know, like I, I tell kids, I go, "Look. You wanna be an author, right? Go to any b- ... And you tell your parents you're gonna be an author, they're gonna yell at you and blah, blah, blah, and you can't make a living and so on and so forth," and it's extremely hard. There's no question. But I say, "Go to any bookstore, right?"

    14. CW

      (laughs)

    15. MM

      "Look around. Look at all those shitty, shitty books. That could be you."

    16. CW

      (laughs)

    17. MM

      "You could be that mediocre author." But when you put it in those terms, right away, it's like, "Oh, this is feasible."Right? So a lot of times we have this idea that to be kind of exceptional you have to be Einstein or you have to be Rembrandt. It's like no, no, no. That shitty author is also has a weird job and is exceptional. And maybe you're not going to get even to that level, but I promise you by the time you're 30, 40, if you haven't tried, you will regret it for the rest of your life. And if you tried and failed, you still wouldn't care, because you shot for it, and you're like, "I wrote a book, it didn't get published, but, you know, I learned a lot from the experience." Everyone who's a co- ... And this is such a cliché, but people haven't gotten it through their head, ev- there's the seen and the unseen. Every single person who's accomplished has an entire storage case full of failures, but you're not going to see that because that's not where it reaches the public consciousness. So i- it's- it's like, yeah, I- I promise you, I've got three books on my computer that never got published. That's okay. So, uh, y- you need, you need to understand that. It's- it's not a failure, it's- it's just a learning process. And the other thing is, you keep knocking on doors, eventually one's going to open. It becomes math. It's not even a question of your talent, it's just a question of your stamina.

    18. CW

      Yeah. There's a- a quote from Naval Ravikant that I've been throwing around a lot recently, and it is, "It's far easier to achieve your material desires than it is to renounce them." And I really love that, and I d- I've spent a lot of time thinking about it. And it kind of touches on what you're talking about there, that some people may choose either through fear of failure or through, um, mindfulness practice and internal work to transcend their desires and say, "Well, I don't need the car. I don't need to be the author. I am enough as I am." Uh, and it leads people, going back to what we said before, it leads people into this kind of apathetic, um, n- n- no requirement to push myself, like they would be in cuddle club. They would be ... That is cuddle club. Um, but the alternative thing to realize, and this is the same, this is my excuse for why I train on a morning, and I want to hear your thoughts about this, um, if you go out and you do the thing

  15. 56:59 – 1:09:05

    Training routines, home-gym survival, lockdown hair, and closing plugs

    1. CW

      and tick the box, you can still transcend it. You can still transcend needing the fast car, but it is significantly easier to transcend needing the fast car from the driver's seat. And-

    2. MM

      Yes.

    3. CW

      ... you also get the benefit that by pushing yourself forward, by that inevitably ... I- I'm not one for objective measures of success or quantifiable metrics of happiness and all that sort of stuff. Like I'm not. But you can't deny the fact that those things are society saying to you, "You are producing something of value. You are producing something which is so worthwhile that we are choosing to pay you for it." Fucking give the money to charity. Like you can d- or give the, you know, g- just give the car away, give the free clothes away, do whatever you want. But there's no reason not to expect more or the best that you can from yourself. And it comes back to what you said earlier on about learning when you're being strict enough to continue disciplining yourself that you can achieve more, and soft enough to give yourself a break to allow you to not go so far that you, that you then snap. Um, and the reason that I train, the reason I train on a morning is I think there is an inherent satisfaction in knowing that you have completed a training session and it resets every night when you go to sleep.

    4. MM

      Hmm.

    5. CW

      So if you spend your entire day knowing that you've got to train at 8:00 PM at night, that's an entire day with an open loop of anxiety saying, "Oh, fucking got to tr- Still got to train. Still got to train. I'm gonna train at 8:00. Got to train." Whereas if you finished your training session by 12:00 midday, you're like, "Oh, rest of the day is mine. I've already got, I've already got my training out of the way," because it is a, a groundhog day that resets every single midnight or whenever you go asleep, and you get to tick that box.

    6. MM

      Huh. I- I don't ... I- I am not a good person to talk to about this because I am psychotically disciplined.

    7. CW

      (laughs)

    8. MM

      And I have been for a long time. So I am so strict with my schedule. I train at night because I don't like it when the gym is busy. So my gym is 24 hours. I would go at 11:00 midnight. I go to bed at 2:00 in the morning every night. Um, wake up at 11:00 in the morning. So if I woke up and went to the gym, I would, I would resent it. For me, it's relaxing to end on that. Um, and it's also like I've been ... I went too often, so my buddy's like, "Five days a week is plenty." So I had to force myself to take a- an extra rest day-

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. MM

      ... uh, and only d- and ... 'cause I was doing six. Um, so but I- I- I don't know that I'm wired that way. I think if I got my work done in the mo- no, in the morning, then I would feel antsy that I have 14 hours to fill. So I don't know. I think it also depends on how much w- of output we have and how much input we have, right? 'Cause I've got like three jobs and- and so on and so forth. So if I only had the working out, that might be a situation where I would be like, I want to do it in the first thing, because then I know if I'm not unemployed, I'm not gonna worry about hitting the phone and not getting the callbacks because I know I did something for the day.

    11. CW

      Hmm.

    12. MM

      But since I will have enough on my plate whether I go to the gym or not regardless, that will take care of that part of my brain which otherwise would be screaming, "It's going to be wasted today. It's going to be wasted today. It's going to be wasted today. You're watching too much, you know, st- uh, stupid videos on YouTube."

    13. CW

      Yeah. I wonder whether that's perhaps a little bit of me, um, getting easy wins in earlier on, um, because I tend to work like that. My morning routine is like 10 wins by 9:00 AM or 10:00 AM, like a- a ton of things. So I'll have gone for a walk, journaled, done breath work, meditated, done my spinal rehab, read, cooked and prepped my food for the day, and maybe done something else like by 9:30 or 10:00 AM. And that's just me perhaps still trying to build up that level of, um, self-confidence and kind of, uh, belief in my own, uh, worth.... to get the day going real hard, you know, like kind of s- s- set off in, in a high gear type thing and, and, and get moving. So, yeah, it's an interesting one, man. How have you been finding, um, training from home and stuff like that?

    14. MM

      So I, I got to tell you, I d- I do not take it for granted having, like, a, a, a, a decent audience of quality people. Um, I think I'm very blessed to have this. And I was going absolutely crazy not having access to a gym because this is very important for me for mental health. Um, and I was on a cut and, and I was reaching ... I, I was at my peak a few years ago. I fell away 'cause my trainer vanished and now I was getting back to that point. Um, and having that just abruptly stop, it was, it was really freaking me out really badly. I mean, I w- I w- went to the park here at 10:00, you know, but you can only do so many pull-ups and dips in, in that park, whatever.

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. MM

      And I had a fan who, she's in Florida, Phoebe, God bless you. Uh, G- God bless you so much. She goes, "Here's the k- the key is in the lock box outside my house. Here's the code." I called her while I was in her house, I did her dishes. I, you know, I watered her plants. I was glad to do it. She gave me ... She had a pair of 30 pound, uh, kettle, uh, barbells and a 65 pound kettlebell. Between that, since I'm, I'm kind of leaning, in a very lean place, it's fine. It's not ideal, but it's certainly psychologically it's fine and physically, you know, in a great place. So having that is very, very, very, uh, um, relaxing, uh, in that part of the brain. It's like you're wasting time or you're ... We all ha- we have this ... I, uh, I don't know if you do 'cause you've been, uh, I mean, this has been something part of your life for a long time. W- I think a lot of people who f- for working out as a part of their life have this idea that your body is a series of balloons and if you stop working out for like a month, you're going to be back where you started and like years will go away. Now, that's not how it works at all. But emotionally, that's what your brain is telling you. And there's nothing you can do to tell it otherwise until you go back and are like, "Oh, I dropped five pounds on my bench." Like, who cares?

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, man, I, I, I, I couldn't agree more. One of the reasons that I'm so happy, uh, Elipko is a Swedish company and obviously, don't know whether you know, but Sweden are essentially just going about their business as normal.

    18. MM

      Yeah, yeah.

    19. CW

      Bars and restaurants and shit are open so you can order kit from them. So I ordered, I've got some stuff off them. Very fortunately just before lockdown started, we got, uh, Wattbike, which is like an exercise, really sophisticated exercise bike and some other bits and pieces. One housemate's a physio and the other housemate's a PT. So like, I, uh, you know, I c- I'm essentially in a gym. I'm in a gym.

    20. MM

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      Uh, and-

    22. MM

      I was going to order weights, but they were sold out everywhere here.

    23. CW

      You, you know what's sold out at the moment in the UK? Hair clippers.

    24. MM

      Oh, God yeah.

    25. CW

      I can't get fucking ... I can't get hair clippers to save my life.

    26. MM

      I, I am going ... I've ... Like every 1981 haircut I've been going, I had a down, I had a, like, the Guy from The Damned. I had Duran Duran. I, I mean, I'm like all right, I had this streak in my hair 'cause I did this Tulsi Gabbard look. Uh, you p- guys probably in the UK don't know her. Uh, when I was into Reuben and I thought it was gonna grow out in one session. It does not. It takes forever for a streak to go out. And we were gonna dye it back, but then haird- uh, the hair c- um, all the hairstylists are, are closed by law.

    27. CW

      Yeah.

    28. MM

      So now it's getting longer than it's ever been in my life. I found this ... I didn't know this. Those round combs, I guess girls know this, they straighten your hair, um, when you comb it out enough.

    29. CW

      Okay.

    30. MM

      So my hair's wavy and now I can do things with it and I'm like, all right, l- it's gonna look crazy. P- I mean, it's fun.

Episode duration: 1:09:05

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