Modern WisdomDEI Wars, Trump’s Bible & The Masculinity Vote - Ryan Long
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,064 words- 0:00 – 5:05
Ryan’s Biggest Lesson From Modern Wisdom
- RLRyan Long
Oh, you know what else, Chris?
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- RLRyan Long
Um, I've- I probably would never do this on a podcast, but I made a couple notes of things I'm gonna say.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, yeah.
- RLRyan Long
Because... Well, because, uh, you know, you're probably one of the most people that... You kind of remind me of, you know, some of my, like, closest friends in Homeward. It's always, like, trying to get to the bottom of something. You know what I mean? So I felt like I have a good, couple of good theories that-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I fucking love this. You came prepared.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, also... Well, I've- we've talked about this already, but I said your stuff that you post a lot of times feels very much directed for me, like I'm the exa- like, you know, I'm the one target audience.
- CWChris Williamson
Being seen.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What was the- What was one of the ones that that's happened with?
- RLRyan Long
Probably the most ever is 'cause the idea that, you know, hard work, you can't always just like hard work your way out of a problem. And I think, you know, you become so accustomed to, "This is how I, you know, excel over people." And then you're like, "Well, everyone's talented at a certain level," and then also, "These problems aren't that." And then on top of that, adding creativity into that is, like, even worse, right? Because in some- s- sometimes stand up, it's like... It, it almost feels silly when I'm just like, what might be the work is like, you need to just like sit there and think (laughs) . You know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Stare at the ceiling for a while.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, and you're like, "This is crazy, right?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yeah.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, so... But you have to, and then you're like, "Well, how do you... Like, how do you rationalize all those things of like, I'm trying to work hard, but at the same time, this isn't a problem that just requires more work?"
- CWChris Williamson
I think creativity's one of these really unique domains that sits outside of like... There's very few problems in life that working harder won't make a bit better somehow.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But one of them-
- RLRyan Long
But you've usually... A lot of times you've maxed that out, I guess.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, you're already foot to the floor, going as hard as you can.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, that's not the issue. You're not, like, lazy, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So I- I've, uh, been trying to write this for ages, and I'll see if this makes sense to you. So I've been thinking about, you know type A people and type B people?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So people that are sort of insecure overachievers that work too hard, and then the sort of lazy people that need to get off the couch. I've been really trying to sort of work this out. So, uh, type A problems, type B problems. I think type A people have a type B problem, and type B people have a type A problem. Insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and relax, and lazy people need to learn how to work harder and be disciplined. Given that you subscribe to me, I'm gonna guess you're a type A person, a kind of walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity, as Andrew Wilkinson says. Type A people get no sympathy, because a miserable but outwardly successful person always appears to be in a much more preferential position than a type B person being lazy but on the verge of bankruptcy. Goggins and Hormozi style advice reliably makes everyone more successful in the only way that you can get judged, outwardly, but there aren't many issues in life which can't be solved by just working harder a little bit, so everyone just smashes it with a hammer. But for a certain, perhaps minority cohort of people, they actually need to hear the opposite. We need like a, a parasympathetic Goggins, a like, #RestHarderThanMe, and that's the creativity piece.
- RLRyan Long
I'd probably even go a little further than that, where if you are a type A person, you're not gonna respond to the idea of like, "Well, you just need t- You just need to be more r-" Like, you, you need a reason.
- CWChris Williamson
Chill out.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, you need a reason. You need... So I th- And I think the reason is, if you were like to really boil it down, it was that the g- Like, great ideas come from, you know, making connections between things, and you need the... And so a lot of times you're building those, like, connections in your brain that you can now, like, use, whereas a lot of times you're out of connections, so you're kind of... You know what I mean? So your brain, it's not just that you need to, like, rest. It's that you need to, you know, rejig your inputs and like centralize them.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- 5:05 – 14:09
How Type A People Can Be More Creative
- RLRyan Long
- CWChris Williamson
What would you say to the type A person listening that wants to become more creative? Like you work hard, even though it might not seem like it from the outside, even though you might seem like you're like sort of just-
- RLRyan Long
Well, I think the first step is to ex- to understand like whether that actually is the goal. 'Cause I think-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you need to be creative?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, 'cause I think some people probably, you know, think they wanna be creative and they're like, "Well, you actually don't." There's so much like sacrifice for that, you know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm.
- RLRyan Long
It's like sexier, but it's also less like financially and every other way rewarding in general, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
That's interesting. I, I agree with you, and I do think that the, like hard work, uh, the creativity being sexy 'cause it, it seems like... I know you're aloof, you're an artist.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know, you're like fucking Salvador Dali with the twirling his mustache. But there's another bit, I think, where, where everyone prays at the altar of the Goggins, the Jocko, the 4:30 AM kettlebell swings and stuff, and I've never heard any of those guys talk about where they...... like, embrace the muse from. I'm not hearing Jocko talk about, like, you know, "My creativity spoke down to me from above as I went for a slow walk through a meadow."
- RLRyan Long
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, that's not, I'm not hearing that. So I, I think that there is a, a real place for the conversation about creativity, where does sort of artistic inspiration come from, coming up with solutions that aren't more of the same, but are genuinely novel and different to the problem that you've maybe been facing for ages.
- RLRyan Long
Especially when you're talking about content, though. 'Cause that's the other part about it is, like, creativity really, for a lot of people that are running businesses where they're putting out tons of content, like... You know, there's that kind of, uh, I think James Altucher had, like, a really good point about Jim Cramer, where he was kind of like... You know how now people joke about him being, like, wrong a lot, and they've got the index, but he was like, he was a really good, he was really good at being, you know, a hedge fund manager, and he was, like, one of the top guys. It's like, yeah, but, you know, Warren Buffett has three ideas a year. You know what I mean? Where it's like, if you gotta have ten ideas every day-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RLRyan Long
... it's like, well, they're not gonna be good or they're gonna be borrowed.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RLRyan Long
Which is kind of, you know, like, I think, you know, a lot of times I'll, you know, when I'm doing standup, I'll be like, "Okay, let me, I'll spend, you know, two full days kind of, like, thinking," and I have a lot of systems that I'll do. I'll be like, "Okay, go through these words," and I go through old stuff, then I kinda, you know, whatever. I have whatever weird systems that I have to do. And I'm like, at the end of that week, if I have, like, two really good ideas, that's a lot.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so cool-
- RLRyan Long
And some people are like, "Oh, I have eight, eight, 80 things to say a day." You're like, "Well, okay, you didn't make them up."
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
They, they've, they've been adapted by somebody else, they're straight stolen from somebody else. And I mean, it's cool in any industry, I think, where you get paid for the quality of your ideas, not the volume of your ideas. So-
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, I know that you can't just tell one joke and walk offstage-
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... so there is, like, a volume component.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But really what people are looking for... I mean, how long did Rogan's last special, like from his, from special to special? It's like six years or something, right? So he does it, and obviously-
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, it's like a luxury position in some way.
- CWChris Williamson
He can do what he wants. But still-
- 14:09 – 22:12
People Follow From the Front
- RLRyan Long
about, so if you look at, uh, there's kind of, you know, there's different times in culture where, you know, certain times where it's like... You know, probably like five years ago is there, there's a lot of things couldn't... It was hard to say things, you know what I mean? And it was very tense.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
And there was a, you know, kind of a lot of like truths to be said that weren't, you know, part of the public discourse.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
And then now, it's kind of like all the stuff's been said.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- RLRyan Long
You know what I mean? And I was kinda thinking that, um, if you look at what's, you know, a lot of people on the, in culture are right now, it's following from the front, if that makes sense. Where they're, they're really like following, but if you think of like a mob of people, 'cause you know, if... To some degree there's, you know, the media is being like, "Okay, we care about this now, we care about this now." But to some degree it is a little organic of whether, you know, whether, you know, this group of people likes this candidate, or we, we care about this, right? There is like organic directions of what, you know, movements go in.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
And then it's kind of about pe- people are like in the, people that like were leaders in the last one, it's like them running around trying to catch up and act like they were leading.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs) You know what I mean?
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RLRyan Long
So there's almost like people acting like they're leading groups of people.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RLRyan Long
But really, it just kinda went there, and then they, they kinda run and then they c- go back.
- CWChris Williamson
And they get to the front.
- RLRyan Long
They go, "Oh yeah, we care about this now." And then you-
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's-
- RLRyan Long
I mean, I could think of like 20 examples.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
But there's so many people that they're, they're following from the front louder.
- CWChris Williamson
That's a really fucking good insight that I hadn't considered. But you're right. It's, uh, it's the exact same, good example, uh, might be in Pride Month every year where the organizations change their flags. Mercedes and Xbox and fucking Nike or whatever change to a Pride flag. But they only change to Pride flags in countries where gender, uh, like sexual orientation equality has already been reached.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, of course.
- CWChris Williamson
And in the Middle East, where it actually needs to be, work-
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... needs to be done on it, though it's still the same. There's no change made at all. So that would be an example of like following from the front, where we're going to stake our claim and put the flag in the ground right here, this is us.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, we're acting like we're leaders of this movement.
- CWChris Williamson
It's already been, this has already been won. The place where it needs to be done is the place where you're like, "Zup."
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, it definitely happens a lot in that kind of, you know, that, that, uh, you know, media-activism space. But yeah, it all, it happens in everywhere. Yeah, you'll see, you know, like you'll watch like the right-wing movement-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- 22:12 – 27:36
Companies Figuring Out How Gay To Be
- CWChris Williamson
special taught me, uh, that, and- and I think this is right, companies are either getting in trouble at the moment for being too gay or not gay enough.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the, that's the way that they exist.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Too gay or not gay enough.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, there was a, there was a pretty good, there was a pretty good rip there, where (laughs) like companies were having a hard time finding the perfect amount of gay to be. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) I s- I found on that, I did a little bit of research. Uh, Toyota won't sponsor Pride events following backlash from an anti-woke mob. So Pink News, which I think is like- like a gay website. Um, in a memo sent to 50,000 US employees in more than 1,500 dealerships, the company said the decision follows a highly politicized discussion around business commitments to DEI, not sporting festivals and parades. According to Bloomberg, they're not participating in some other stuff, and DEI and all of that. They're stopping all of that. Anyway, uh, so I did a bit more digging, and it turns out that there's a lot of companies that are sort of quietly rolling back their DEI efforts. And-
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Pink News, uh, has big problem with this. But-
- RLRyan Long
I can't imagine Pink News loves it. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. The choice of companies that they were getting outraged about rolling back their DEI efforts. This is the best list. So th- this-
- RLRyan Long
Oh, this is a list of not gay enough? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, this is the list of not g- was too gay for their customers, now-
- RLRyan Long
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
... not gay enough for Pink News.
- RLRyan Long
They're gay.
- CWChris Williamson
But they highlighted that they could have done it and they're in real shit. Okay, so this is a list of companies who have rolled back their DEI efforts, uh, because of right-wing pressure and are not providing an inclusive working environment. John Deere, the tractor manufacturer.
- RLRyan Long
I remember the J- I saw the John Deere hustle bustle. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Jack Daniels, Harley-Davidson, Ford, Lowe's, Molson Coors, and Stanley Black & Decker. I'm like, you couldn't have picked a list of less gay companies-
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to be angry about the fact-
- RLRyan Long
I think Harley Davidson was actually doing some stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
What were they doing?
- RLRyan Long
I- I- I don't know exactly, but I think they were just... Th- th- it all b- a- a lot of it is kind of that...There was a moment where, you know, if you look at it like stocks, right? There was a moment where there was like an arbitrage opportunity, where a lot of these companies were like, "You know, we can make money by pandered into this bullshit."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
"It's an easy way to get clicks."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
The problem is, if you stay in those waters for too long, before you know it, you have actual people in your company that believe it.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
Whereas, like (laughs) , you know, at the top, you're just like, "Oh, this is... Yeah, okay, this is what you do to get press or whatever," and they probably don't give two shits. And then, yeah, but if you're in that for four years, you have turnover. Now it's like, now you have 35% of the people, and also you have to, you have to sell the bullshit to the company.
- 27:36 – 31:25
Right-Wing Vs Left-Wing Commercials
- RLRyan Long
stuff. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Have you been watching... Who's that guy? Uh, No Cap On God?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, I know that guy.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Fuck me, he is so good at what he d-... I mean, you have this like on-street thing. I can't do it. My cringe meter, my British cringe meter-
- RLRyan Long
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... just goes through the roof even saying-
- RLRyan Long
It's very British.
- CWChris Williamson
It is. Thank you. It's very prim and proper. But it goes through the roof watching you do your thing, uh, where... What was it that you were... Uh, you were walking through Times Square asking people to donate money to Trump's legal fund?
- RLRyan Long
Oh, I- I had a while where I was... I had a bunch of different like funds I was getting people to donate to. I tried to get the... I wanted to do one where I was like, "Did Alex Jones' legal fund?" Then I did Trump's legal fund, and then I did tr- Uh, Tucker Carlson was making a doc, Killery and Liberal Lies.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
And I was asking... (laughs) But the Trump one, yeah, the Trump one I was telling people in New York, I said that they have a chan-... They get entered into a raffle to win a chance to go to lunch with Barron Trump.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
They're like... And she goes, "I would never wanna go to lunch with Barron Trump." I'm like, "Well, it's not a guarantee you're gonna win. It's just a-"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- RLRyan Long
... (laughs) shit's so funny.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah, I think-
- RLRyan Long
I think you're getting ahead of yourself, isn't (laughs) ...
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's a guaranteed.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, those on-street interviews are, for me, like I- I love watching them but I can't, I can't deal with them. And the, the dude from No Cap On God, Li- Lionel, Lin- Lionel, I think is his name, uh, is fucking sweet. Uh, did you see that Trump had his own line of Bibles? Do you see this story?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's on a lot of fucking wacky stuff. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
He's got, he's got it all. Uh-
- RLRyan Long
Shoes, Bibles.
- CWChris Williamson
It turns out that Trump's God Bless the USA Bibles were made in China. Uh, the official Bibles of Donald Trump are printed in China, it has been revealed. Thousands of copies-
- RLRyan Long
Goat.
- CWChris Williamson
... of his God Bless the USA Bible printed in a country that the former president has repeatedly accused of stealing American jobs. Trump never said where they were printed or what they cost. A copy hand-signed by the former president sells for $1,000. Uh, so yeah. Look, maybe they c- maybe he could offer one of the signed Bibles as well.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah (laughs) . Yeah, it's like-
- CWChris Williamson
'Cause you could probably guarantee that.
- RLRyan Long
Dude, that was... I've actually been talking about this on stage a bit, that it is funny to me that Fox News can't get good commercials, so, uh, they just have to sell junk to old people. And Rumble has that a little bit, but you know Fox... CNN's always like, you know, McDonald's and the most multicultural-
- CWChris Williamson
Bullshit.
- 31:25 – 40:16
The YouTube Niche of Breastfeeding Advice
- CWChris Williamson
thing-
- RLRyan Long
But, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
The other thing from your special that we need to talk about, uh, you taught me that there is a YouTube niche of breastfeeding advice.
- RLRyan Long
Oh. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And I didn't even know that this was a thing. I- I mean, I guess that you need advice for everything.
- RLRyan Long
I wish I didn't know it was a thing. But you... I hope you... I hope you're not in the situation I am, 'cause the problem with the algorithms... And this is... I've been saying this with... You know, I- I got on disability TikTok, right? Which is-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
What are you a jerk off to? So (laughs) there's this guy, he just, like, rolls around. He's got no arms and legs. And there's, like, a bunch of him, right? And, and he's... This guy's... Uh, you're laughing. That guy's crushing. He's probably a bazillionaire right now.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
This guy rolling into a bag of money, right?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
But (laughs) the thing is, the algorithm, it's so wild because you don't ask for it, but it... You know, if you were... I said if you were walking around the street and there was a guy rolling around on the floor, or, like, taking a shit in the alley, like, of course you would look more than you would just look at a normal person. And then the algorithm's like, "Oh, that's your shit, huh?" So it's like, that's- that's all you get now. So, if you walk... Like, so now when I see any freak show content, I try to scroll as fast as I can.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. Okay. (laughs)
- RLRyan Long
But I guess they got me with the breastfeeding one (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
'Cause they kee-... Like, I'm just... Dude, it's a literal, like, you know, OnlyFans chick just sitting there. You know, fake bab-... Oh, I don't know if you... I didn't mention that part in the special. They got fake babies too. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- RLRyan Long
... basically it's a loophole that you can be nude on Instagram if it's breastfeeding content.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, even if it's not a real child?
- RLRyan Long
Well, I don't know the logistics of the real or fake child 'cause maybe you could say it's, uh, you know, they're... it's educational.
- CWChris Williamson
Practicing. It's a practice child.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, and, uh, you know, and they say it's for new mothers. That's why on my- my special, I'm just like, "Yeah, it's 10,000 new mothers. That's who's watching this." But... So they have basically fake babies now, and then they (laughs) they're feeding this to me, man. I'm the demo that-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
I don't watch it anymore. They keep giving it to me.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
They're like, "You did that one time. No, you love it."
- CWChris Williamson
Well, it's funny to work out-
- RLRyan Long
"You love it."
- CWChris Williamson
... whether or not it- it was, like, them activating a secret thing that you actually did want in the back of your mind or-
- RLRyan Long
What, tits?
- 40:16 – 45:45
Why Japanese Men Love Tickling Porn
- CWChris Williamson
said, uh, Japanese men-
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... have recently become obsessed with tickling porn. More than 10% of Pornhub searches for young Japanese men are for tickling.
- RLRyan Long
That one, I really don't have a s-... I don't know Japanese guys. I know Indian people pretty well. I don't know Ja-... the Japanese as well.
- CWChris Williamson
They wanna be tickled.
- RLRyan Long
So-
- CWChris Williamson
That's what you... That's all you need to know.
- RLRyan Long
I mean, if I was to guess, um... Oh, this is, uh, completely outta nowhere.
- CWChris Williamson
What, you're saying that this isn't a well-researched opinion that you're about to put in front of us that's backed by data?
- RLRyan Long
I feel like my Indian stuff's on the money. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Okay.
- RLRyan Long
I feel like I'm tapped into the Indian culture.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- RLRyan Long
Uh, Japanese stuff, my guess would be that Japanese culture is very childlike.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
You know, if... like, if you look at all the... you know, they have the girls where it's hot and they're basically, like, dressed like, you know-
- CWChris Williamson
Schoolgirls.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, uh, schoolgirls.
- CWChris Williamson
Anime and shit.
- RLRyan Long
Like, the anime kid stuff. So, if you think of, you know, that stuff being very popular, uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, it's, like, babying.
- RLRyan Long
Tickling is very cartoony.
- CWChris Williamson
Ah, I think you might be onto something there. That wasn't total dog shit. That was-
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, that has t-... Uh, I... if I was to make a connection between two things, it's the childlike, you know, fashion stuff versus, uh... You know, that stuff... uh, you know, you do... you do change your.... You know, like... I... d-... uh, you ever watch, like, a- a movie about, like, you know, uh, a n-... like, a place that's all not white people, and you know, whether that be Asian or... you know, and then you leave that st-... Like, let's say you watch the whole thing about fucking Jamaica or something, then you leave that kind of being like, "I like bl-... I think I'm into Black girls."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
Like, you know what I mean? Like, it does change your... Whatever you're around obviously changes, like, your-
- CWChris Williamson
So, are you saying that you've got this, like, uh, proximity, like, impact on what you're attracted to because-
- RLRyan Long
Well, that's for sure true, it's just the extent of which each person is... You know, that's just a nature-nurture conversation, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
And for every person, that's whatever percentage. But what chicks are into is for sure nature-nurture. There's gotta be a split, right?
- 45:45 – 52:29
Goodhart’s Law of Unintended Consequences
- CWChris Williamson
So there's a, a law called Goodhart's Law. Parkinson's Law is, work expands to fill the time given for it. It's why you hand your university assignment in the morning that it's supposed to be due in, right?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, that's very true. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It just keeps on, just keeps on expanding. But there's a one that's kind of similar called Goodhart's Law. Goodhart's Law says, when a measure becomes an outcome, it ceases to be a good measure. So for instance, if you were to say, um, "The measure that I want is the most number of email newsletter subscribers that I could get, and that is the only thing I'm optimizing for," that's the outco- a measure, email newsletter subscribers, becomes the outcome that you optimize for, you would say, "Right, I'm gonna post online that I'm gonna give $10,000 to every person that signs up for a newsletter."
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, that's a good point.
- CWChris Williamson
Then they don't get $10,000. What have you done? Hooray, you've got all of these people to sign up for your newsletter, but that wasn't actually the outcome you wanted, it was just a measure en route to it. The outcome you wanted was, "I want a large list of people who are interested in what I do and want to hear from me and think about me positively," and so on and so forth. And that's the same with talking about the content thing or the views thing or the optimizing for anything thing. It's the same as, um, "I want girls to like me, therefore I'm gonna get as jacked as possible." You get super-duper jacked, but you don't realize what the externality of that is gonna be, which is just tons of- of fucking attention from men. Or if you owned a company-
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) If you owned a company that, uh, was-
- RLRyan Long
I never found j- getting jacked helped at all, one way or another, with women.
- CWChris Williamson
With getting men? Oh.
- RLRyan Long
I don't... (laughs) Yeah, with getting men it was, did okay, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, no, I think, uh, you'd be surprised at how little of a difference it makes.
- RLRyan Long
I might have been, uh, might have been adverse for me. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) How jacked have you got?
- RLRyan Long
I think if I had a six-pack, I think the, like, the knowledge that, uh... You know, it sounds like a cope, but I mean, you know, obviously it's different types of girls. But like, if in... You know, I've played in, you know, bands my whole life and I've been in entertainment my whole life and been a comedian, touring comedian for 15 years. And I would say that the people that are around that scene, like, I've never seen a correlation between the most jacked guy and the most girls. Like, you know, to- to a point, but I think that there's, like, a level of, like, cool, you know, nihilism that is negated by having a six-pack.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, that's funny. I wonder how special, uh, that is to your particular industries of like, Lothario-
- RLRyan Long
It depends on your schtick, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... smoking and fucking leather-jacket-wearing, 4:00 AM people.
- RLRyan Long
I probably, I probably... Especially depends on your body type too, but I think that, like, the skinny heroine version of my body types look, like, is more appealing than the jacked version-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) You texted-
- RLRyan Long
... to women.
- CWChris Williamson
You texted me something about that the other week.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I was fucking pissing myself. Um, but that Goodhart's Law thing. So imagine that you run a company and, um, one of the measures, uh, that you want, you tell...... we need to drop the fraud rate in our company as much as possible. So you get customer support and you drill them. This is the most important metric. This is exactly what you're focusing on. Hooray, they managed to drive the fraud rate to essentially zero. Boo, what they actually do is treat every customer like a potential fraudster. That's not good.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's not actually what you wanted to achieve. So I think when you're looking at stuff like the pooping man on the street that you look at for a little bit longer, the equivalent of that on the internet, what you actually end up realizing is, okay, I can make something that will cause people to look and may even accumulate an audience, but it's not the sort of audience that I want. What are they here for? Are they here for, like, the right reasons? What are their expectations around me? This is one of the things that you should always be scared about if you ever do anything that blows up, even as a musician. Like let's say that you make a song and this song is amazing, but it's like kind of a bit out there compared with what your usual stuff is and what you love to make, and you just experimented and had this crack. And you go, "I've just got-"
- RLRyan Long
You're this now.
- CWChris Williamson
... "50%" That's you now.
- RLRyan Long
I know.
- CWChris Williamson
That's you. And you go, "Oh, fuck, I need to now play in that field. I made a, like right-wing country..." That Oliver Anthony guy, remember that guy?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- 52:29 – 59:27
The Sinister Side of Social Media Algorithms
- CWChris Williamson
Russell, who wrote this book, Human Compatible. So the worldwide textbook on AI, uh, may still be the case, but it certainly was for a couple of decades, was written by this guy Stuart Russell. Anyway, wrote this book, and in it, he taught me this really interesting thing about, uh, how the algorithm works. So the algorithm works in two ways. First way is that it finds content that you are likely to click on by getting better at predicting what you're gonna click on, right? That's kind of the way that everybody understands that the algorithm works. But there's a second way that it works as well, which is it moves your preferences, it nudges your preferences to make you easier to predict. So it's a bi-directional relationship.
- RLRyan Long
Oh, that's sinister. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) It's fucking really sinister. Yeah, that's a great word. Um, and yeah, so one, one of the reasons that we talk... Why is the internet so-
- RLRyan Long
People hate unpredictability.
- CWChris Williamson
C- but the, the internet's so pre- like polarized and, you know, w- these two camps don't talk to each other and all the rest of it. And you go, okay, like maybe that's because of tribalism. Maybe it's because you're stating your, in... your opinions to everybody all the time. Maybe it's because we don't have time to have nuanced opinions and, uh, there's these sort of shows of loyalty to your own side and threat displays to the other. Or maybe it's the algorithm, meaning that if I know you're far right, you are always gonna hate-click or love-click on these two buckets of things. And if you're far left, you're gonna do the opposite. Uh, that maybe it's, maybe everybody is just being cucked by the algo and we've all been turned into these sort of easily predictable, uh, like preference engines.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, uh, uh, I, I always think of things a little bit like, you know, s- stocks is, or maybe just everything is stocks, but it's, uh, the only one that, uh, is, you know, there's a centralized body which describes everything, but it, it really does though. The more they do it, the more there is that arbitrage opportunity where they're... 'Cause the tr- you know, you know, like in, you know, attraction or whatever, it's like, you know, there's the kind of the oldest men/women thing, but...... women aren't attracted to a man who they can predict everything about them, you know? And so it's like they... People think they want that, but then they kind of stop wanting it. So at a time when everything kind of becomes predictable, when you see something that wasn't, you know, in a lot of ways it's so much more attractive. But then, yeah, so you are kind of like, how do you rise above the algorithms to be that?
- CWChris Williamson
There's a tension between, uh, sort of novelty or being exotic and being reliable and consistent. Because people like that. I think this is one of the reasons, again, I listened to tons of Shapiro during, uh, 2020, during COVID. If- if there's a global pandemic going on, you need a daily show. I chose him. I know you can... I can just read the title. I've got a pretty good idea of what his take is gonna be. It's like putting on an old leather-
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... pair of shoes. You know, there's a cadence.
- RLRyan Long
I watch the cop shows like NCIS and stuff like that.
- CWChris Williamson
You know it's the fucking brother, it's the uncle, it's the guy that was like sort of snooping around the corner at the start-
- RLRyan Long
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... and asking too many questions. You know what it's gonna be. But you, you're almost there for that. It's comfortable log fire. You've got your fucking slippers on, like I- I'm familiar with this. And I think that the tension that people have between this desire for reliability and consistency and predictability, but avoiding being boring, and also the sort of spice of novelty and, and, and newness that everybody wants. Finding that is exactly what it is. But I mean, how many times have you been on the algo and it's just thrown you something you've never seen before and you're like, "Oh, that's fucking good." So I, (laughs) I went down a rabbit hole of-
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Star Wars character.
- RLRyan Long
The meme... If you're in the meme culture, there's a lot of... You know, it'll get you.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I went in... I went down this huge rabbit hole of Star Wars character battle power, like analysis. People that had read all of the lore and they know who the most powerful Sith is of all time.
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And they work out what would have happened if Luke Skywalker at peak power had actually fought, uh, this guy and all the rest of it.
- RLRyan Long
Uh-huh.
- CWChris Williamson
And then that led me into this one about Marvel comics and all of the Marvel comics. And this is the biggest, most powerful guy, and it's that same fucking black man AI voice that everybody uses.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I was like this... And I was en- enthralled. But that was one video I'd never seen before. So that was the, you know, bit of novelty that just gets tossed at you and you're like, "Oh, wow." Like, "This is fucking sweet." And then other times you go, "Okay, if- if I had that all the time, it'd be too chaotic." It's like cat video, breastfeeding video, cow video, fucking Marvel video. Too much.
- RLRyan Long
It's got... It... There has to be... You know what, uh, this should be the opportunity for the company that you basically are like algorithm curators, 'cause you know, especially like what you, what you do, where you go... You know, there's people that are like, "Yeah, I know that, uh, this is worse for me, so I'm choosing to sort of..." You know, it's obviously you don't want to just be like using your willpower every second, right? So you, you, uh, you're able to say, "Okay, this is..." Someone... They take over your account for a week, and then they give it back to you where you're like, "This is like the success algorithm you're about to get." I was saying, I was saying that, uh, it's... I don't get... You know, I never get messed up by politics shit. Like, it never- never really like gets to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- RLRyan Long
Uh, but the alpha male shit sometimes, where it's like, "If you sleep, you're gay," and I'll be like, "What the..."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
You know, it's like... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Dude, it's so-
- RLRyan Long
I will leg- (laughs) Just be like on a plane and, you know, a guy's just like, you know, "Y'all sleeping." Uh, uh, you know, these... They're sleeping while I'm working: content. And I'm just like, "Fucking, I'm a loser." (laughs)
- 59:27 – 1:04:52
Is This Election Crazier Than Usual?
- CWChris Williamson
we gotta talk a bit of politics. Like what, what the fuck is the assessment you've got? This isn't your first time in the US during an election. Like, is this more crazy than it is typically? It's my first time here.
- RLRyan Long
Um... Oh, this is your first time being here for it?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- RLRyan Long
Feels less crazy to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Really?
- RLRyan Long
Does it feel more crazy to you?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I haven't been here before.
- RLRyan Long
But you've been... I mean, everyone's in- inundated by American politics.
- CWChris Williamson
Paid- paid attention. I don't know, man. I mean, from two assassination attempts to a replaced candidate to like one of them going on Call Her Daddy. Like, I mean, it's...
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
It's all happening.
- RLRyan Long
Have you seen Danny's the AI king right now? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Bro. So for people that don't know, I had to text Danny about this. Uh, I also sent it to the guy that did, um, Alex's $125 million SiriusXM deal. And I was like, "Bro, have you seen this?" (laughs)
- RLRyan Long
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, Danny did a Kamala and Alex AI talk over...
- RLRyan Long
He AI'd people in the- Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and makes like a script that the AI must read in their voice. And he was talking about, "Kamala, everybody knows that you're the throat GOAT. So can we talk-" (laughs)
- RLRyan Long
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... unreal.
- RLRyan Long
I mean, you're, if you're, if you're 70 years old and you just watch a video and you're supposed to know it's AI, like you're, you're cooked, man. You know, you're done.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- RLRyan Long
But, yeah, in terms of, uh, uh, to me, it feels like, uh, like, I mean, the last four elect- Okay, I remember I was in... I guess we'll see who, who wins and how it shakes down. I remember being in Toronto, uh, when Trump won the first time, and I was at a comedy club and girls were crying. Like, girls were like bawling their eyes out. And I remember I went on stage.
- CWChris Williamson
Canadian girls?
- RLRyan Long
Yeah. We don't even... Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, American politics is everywhere. So you are... I- i- Yes, it's funny that it is in Canada, but I guess it doesn't feel like that. They feel like... You know, I feel... And I'm sure they were correct that, like, a Trumpian president is gonna affect the next four years of the life or whatever. But yeah, that's how much... You know, and I know people in New York that were like, "Yeah, I cried," and they kind of feel like a little embarrassed about it now. But I remember I went on stage and I was like, "It's 2016," and I was like, "There's gonna be some fucking changes around here."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- RLRyan Long
You know? ............................ like the first thing to happen. (laughs) But it was like, yeah, it was crazy. People were crying, right? But to me, it doesn't feel like it's... It feels to some degree like a lot of people are, in some ways, embarrassed about how much they lost their mind.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- RLRyan Long
You know, and they lost their mi- People lost their mind so many times where now it feels, you know, back to probably a little closer to how I grew up, where, you know, people are like, "Yeah." You know, there's podcasts with people that have different political views. The... It seems to me like both candidates are sort of... You know, Trump's going on being like, "No, I'm not crazy on abortion." And then Kamala's going on being like, "I swear I'm not, like, this fucking crazy woke person." Like, they're almost, you know, they're clearly sort of-
- CWChris Williamson
Tempering.
- RLRyan Long
... whether they're gonna do it or not, but they're clearly, like, that's who they're trying to sort of, you know, move into. Again, we'll see what happens afterwards. But I was kinda thinking that so many of arguments right now is just, you know, abortion would be an ex- example, but you can probably, you know, pick anything. Uh, most arguments in politics are just who has the more egregious edge case. You know what I mean?
- 1:04:52 – 1:21:30
Why Kamala Went on ‘Call Her Daddy’
- CWChris Williamson
the Kamala going on podcasts and doing the 60 Minutes and all the rest of it is just a response to the fact that Trump is everywhere at the moment? Do you think that's them playing defense, just sort of trying to get her out there 'cause it's too obvious? If she doesn't go on all of this long, any long form stuff at all-
- RLRyan Long
Yes. Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... there's this big sort of open loop of, "Uh..."
- RLRyan Long
I think it was too obvious, and they were like, "Well, let's crank out a few, you know, softballs." Like Stern, you know Stern's gonna be, you know, gonna be like, "What's it like being so great?" You know? So I think that that's what they're doing. They're like, "Yeah, let's crank out a few." And then I think that people just don't like her. So it seems to be that it's kinda changing the things. I'm sure it's not changing a lot, but, I mean, the betting markets are not feeling her interviews.
- CWChris Williamson
Dude. Do you follow Polymarket? Looks like that.
- RLRyan Long
Yeah, I love following Polymarket. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
All right. So, uh, everyone, I c- I had, uh, Mike Sollano from Pirate Wires on the show a couple of months ago. He's so fucking great. They wrote this thing today I wanted to read to you. Um, so this is, they're sponsored by Polymarket, right? They're like a part-
Episode duration: 2:29:36
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