DEI Wars, Trump’s Bible & The Masculinity Vote - Ryan Long

Ryan Long 0:00 Oh, you know what else, Chris?

Chris Williamson 0:01 Yes.

Ryan Long 0:02 Um, I've- I probably would never do this on a podcast, but I made a couple notes of things I'm gonna say.

Chris Williamson 0:07 Oh, yeah.

Ryan Long 0:08 Because... Well, because, uh, you know, you're probably one of the most people that... You kind of remind me of, you know, some of my, like, closest friends in Homeward. It's always, like, trying to get to the bottom of something. You know what I mean? So I felt like I have a good, couple of good theories that-

Chris Williamson 0:19 Oh, I fucking love this. You came prepared.

Ryan Long 0:21 Yeah, also... Well, I've- we've talked about this already, but I said your stuff that you post a lot of times feels very much directed for me, like I'm the exa- like, you know, I'm the one target audience.

Chris Williamson 0:33 Being seen.

Ryan Long 0:34 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:34 What was the- What was one of the ones that that's happened with?

Ryan Long 0:36 Probably the most ever is 'cause the idea that, you know, hard work, you can't always just like hard work your way out of a problem. And I think, you know, you become so accustomed to, "This is how I, you know, excel over people." And then you're like, "Well, everyone's talented at a certain level," and then also, "These problems aren't that." And then on top of that, adding creativity into that is, like, even worse, right? Because in some- s- sometimes stand up, it's like... It, it almost feels silly when I'm just like, what might be the work is like, you need to just like sit there and think (laughs) . You know?

Chris Williamson 1:11 Yep.

Ryan Long 1:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:11 Stare at the ceiling for a while.

Ryan Long 1:13 Yeah, and you're like, "This is crazy, right?"

Chris Williamson 1:14 Yep. Yeah.

Ryan Long 1:15 Yeah, so... But you have to, and then you're like, "Well, how do you... Like, how do you rationalize all those things of like, I'm trying to work hard, but at the same time, this isn't a problem that just requires more work?"

Chris Williamson 1:26 I think creativity's one of these really unique domains that sits outside of like... There's very few problems in life that working harder won't make a bit better somehow.

Ryan Long 1:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:36 But one of them-

Ryan Long 1:37 But you've usually... A lot of times you've maxed that out, I guess.

Chris Williamson 1:39 Yeah, you're already foot to the floor, going as hard as you can.

Ryan Long 1:41 Yeah, that's not the issue. You're not, like, lazy, right?

Chris Williamson 1:43 Yeah. So I- I've, uh, been trying to write this for ages, and I'll see if this makes sense to you. So I've been thinking about, you know type A people and type B people?

Ryan Long 1:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:52 So people that are sort of insecure overachievers that work too hard, and then the sort of lazy people that need to get off the couch. I've been really trying to sort of work this out. So, uh, type A problems, type B problems. I think type A people have a type B problem, and type B people have a type A problem. Insecure overachievers need to learn how to chill out and relax, and lazy people need to learn how to work harder and be disciplined. Given that you subscribe to me, I'm gonna guess you're a type A person, a kind of walking anxiety disorder harnessed for productivity, as Andrew Wilkinson says. Type A people get no sympathy, because a miserable but outwardly successful person always appears to be in a much more preferential position than a type B person being lazy but on the verge of bankruptcy. Goggins and Hormozi style advice reliably makes everyone more successful in the only way that you can get judged, outwardly, but there aren't many issues in life which can't be solved by just working harder a little bit, so everyone just smashes it with a hammer. But for a certain, perhaps minority cohort of people, they actually need to hear the opposite. We need like a, a parasympathetic Goggins, a like, #RestHarderThanMe, and that's the creativity piece.

Ryan Long 2:55 I'd probably even go a little further than that, where if you are a type A person, you're not gonna respond to the idea of like, "Well, you just need t- You just need to be more r-" Like, you, you need a reason.

Chris Williamson 3:06 Chill out.

Ryan Long 3:07 Yeah, you need a reason. You need... So I th- And I think the reason is, if you were like to really boil it down, it was that the g- Like, great ideas come from, you know, making connections between things, and you need the... And so a lot of times you're building those, like, connections in your brain that you can now, like, use, whereas a lot of times you're out of connections, so you're kind of... You know what I mean? So your brain, it's not just that you need to, like, rest. It's that you need to, you know, rejig your inputs and like centralize them.

Chris Williamson 3:36 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 3:36 But then aga- you know, there was kind of a, you know, in this stuff, which I, again, I, uh, not to keep complimenting you, obviously we're friends, but like, I, uh, whatever this is you do, I think you're one of the best at-

Chris Williamson 3:46 Thank you.

Ryan Long 3:46 (laughs) Uh, whatever you call it.

Chris Williamson 3:48 Yeah, it was fucking talking.

Ryan Long 3:49 (laughs) But there, there's kind of like... When you're talking about the amount of, uh, uh, um, like connections that you can have. That's why in a lot of ways, like the smartest people aren't good at creativity some ways, I think.

Chris Williamson 4:06 Mm.

Ryan Long 4:06 So if you talk about... You know, why are, why are like the best comedians in the world not just the smartest people? Okay-

Chris Williamson 4:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 4:13 ... for example, or the best artists a lot of times? And, you know, obviously you could say, "Well, it's because, you know, there's better options available to them and whatever," right? But still though, you know, there'll be... There's people that we probably know mutual friends that are like, you go... They're two people and you go, "This is the smarter one, and this is... The guy's funnier." So it's not just career-wise, right? And I think the reason is, is in a lot of times it sits at, you know, like 120 to 140 IQ are probably like a lot of times top comedians or creative, creative people, and, you know, there's probably some smaller o- l- less IQ ones. But the reason is, at a certain level, the more connections you have in your brain, you need to make shortcuts because it's exponential, right?

Chris Williamson 4:50 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 4:50 So if you're 20% smarter or 40% smarter, that's actually not 40% more connections. That's, you know, 8,000 times or however many-

Chris Williamson 4:58 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 4:58 ... maybe, and at that level of connections, it starts to, you know, multiply in a way that you're ma- that by millions more connections, right?

Chris Williamson 5:05 What would you say to the type A person listening that wants to become more creative? Like you work hard, even though it might not seem like it from the outside, even though you might seem like you're like sort of just-

Ryan Long 5:15 Well, I think the first step is to ex- to understand like whether that actually is the goal. 'Cause I think-

Chris Williamson 5:20 Do you need to be creative?

Ryan Long 5:21 Yeah, 'cause I think some people probably, you know, think they wanna be creative and they're like, "Well, you actually don't." There's so much like sacrifice for that, you know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 5:28 Mm-hmm. Mm.

Ryan Long 5:29 It's like sexier, but it's also less like financially and every other way rewarding in general, you know?

Chris Williamson 5:33 That's interesting. I, I agree with you, and I do think that the, like hard work, uh, the creativity being sexy 'cause it, it seems like... I know you're aloof, you're an artist.

Ryan Long 5:43 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:44 You know, you're like fucking Salvador Dali with the twirling his mustache. But there's another bit, I think, where, where everyone prays at the altar of the Goggins, the Jocko, the 4:30 AM kettlebell swings and stuff, and I've never heard any of those guys talk about where they...... like, embrace the muse from. I'm not hearing Jocko talk about, like, you know, "My creativity spoke down to me from above as I went for a slow walk through a meadow."

Ryan Long 6:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 6:10 Like, that's not, I'm not hearing that. So I, I think that there is a, a real place for the conversation about creativity, where does sort of artistic inspiration come from, coming up with solutions that aren't more of the same, but are genuinely novel and different to the problem that you've maybe been facing for ages.

Ryan Long 6:27 Especially when you're talking about content, though. 'Cause that's the other part about it is, like, creativity really, for a lot of people that are running businesses where they're putting out tons of content, like... You know, there's that kind of, uh, I think James Altucher had, like, a really good point about Jim Cramer, where he was kind of like... You know how now people joke about him being, like, wrong a lot, and they've got the index, but he was like, he was a really good, he was really good at being, you know, a hedge fund manager, and he was, like, one of the top guys. It's like, yeah, but, you know, Warren Buffett has three ideas a year. You know what I mean? Where it's like, if you gotta have ten ideas every day-

Chris Williamson 6:59 Yeah.

Ryan Long 6:59 ... it's like, well, they're not gonna be good or they're gonna be borrowed.

Chris Williamson 7:02 Yep.

Ryan Long 7:02 Which is kind of, you know, like, I think, you know, a lot of times I'll, you know, when I'm doing standup, I'll be like, "Okay, let me, I'll spend, you know, two full days kind of, like, thinking," and I have a lot of systems that I'll do. I'll be like, "Okay, go through these words," and I go through old stuff, then I kinda, you know, whatever. I have whatever weird systems that I have to do. And I'm like, at the end of that week, if I have, like, two really good ideas, that's a lot.

Chris Williamson 7:22 It's so cool-

Ryan Long 7:23 And some people are like, "Oh, I have eight, eight, 80 things to say a day." You're like, "Well, okay, you didn't make them up."

Chris Williamson 7:28 Yes.

Ryan Long 7:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:29 They, they've, they've been adapted by somebody else, they're straight stolen from somebody else. And I mean, it's cool in any industry, I think, where you get paid for the quality of your ideas, not the volume of your ideas. So-

Ryan Long 7:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:39 I mean, I know that you can't just tell one joke and walk offstage-

Ryan Long 7:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:41 ... so there is, like, a volume component.

Ryan Long 7:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:43 But really what people are looking for... I mean, how long did Rogan's last special, like from his, from special to special? It's like six years or something, right? So he does it, and obviously-

Ryan Long 7:53 Yeah, it's like a luxury position in some way.

Chris Williamson 7:55 He can do what he wants. But still-

Ryan Long 7:57 I don't even mean just him. I mean, it's a luxury position in some ways to... Yeah, 'cause it's, I guess to some degree, I kind of have heard people say that, but you're, uh, to some of degree you're like, "Duh." (laughs) You- you obviously-

Chris Williamson 8:08 Yeah.

Ryan Long 8:08 ... would rather be paid for my one good idea than-

Chris Williamson 8:10 Yes, yeah, than, uh, pumping out-

Ryan Long 8:11 ... grinding in the trenches.

Chris Williamson 8:12 ... shit, shit tons of bad ones.

Ryan Long 8:13 But you're like, "How do you get there?"

Chris Williamson 8:14 Your new special-

Ryan Long 8:15 You ha- to be insanely leveraged, essentially.

Chris Williamson 8:17 Correct, yeah. So what you're doing is you're looking to get paid for the quality of your ideas, not the quantity of your ideas. And also, to have a really good idea give you a h- huge return, which is the Buffett approach, right?

Ryan Long 8:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:29 I think it's, like, I don't know, I think some absurd amount of his net worth, percentage-wise, has come from, like, five decisions. It's less than 10 decisions. Coca-Cola was one of them. I think Apple was another one of them. Something else, something e- and he... Yeah, I, that's the position that I'm in.

Ryan Long 8:44 But to go back to your original point, then, so now, in like, the people making content and all this stuff, like, what is that? You know, the, it's the guy running the company, that's who it is.

Chris Williamson 8:53 Yep.

Ryan Long 8:54 You know what I mean? Who gets paid for his one big decision. Because the other thing, you're like, "Well, yeah, you could..." Like there doesn't ex- the only, you know, when you describe the, uh, like, artist who kind of exists in terms of, like, every once in a while he pops up with one great thing-

Chris Williamson 9:07 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 9:08 ... those people are all, like, legacy people that are leftover from, like, or not leftover, they're still around from a different era where it was different.

Chris Williamson 9:15 Oh, you think that you need to grind more and sort of put-

Ryan Long 9:17 Well, I guess there's-

Chris Williamson 9:18 ... out?

Ryan Long 9:18 ... like maybe in movie industry or books, there's people that kinda do that.

Chris Williamson 9:21 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 9:21 But it, I, I don't even think you need to. It's just like, it's kind of like set up that way right now.

Chris Williamson 9:25 That's a really great point, yeah. That, uh-

Ryan Long 9:27 It's just like th- the game's the game a little bit right now.

Chris Williamson 9:30 That's such a good point. The, the world really is sort of rewarding the pace that people can pump stuff out at. Uh, and obviously, if it's total crap, it doesn't matter. But there's people who are, uh, prolific from their volume at, like, an okay quality way more than people that are prolific from their quality-

Ryan Long 9:44 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:44 ... at, like, a pretty crappy volume.

Ryan Long 9:45 Can your, like, 90% be really funny?

Chris Williamson 9:48 Yes. But there's another, the tension, obviously, between creativity and, uh, the quantity of your work is that you need to do quite a lot of reps or, or publications or tweets or writings or whatever it is, drawings of your thing, to be able to determine what's good and what's not.

Ryan Long 10:04 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:04 You have to take tons of shots at goal. I mean, unless you're some savant that was just gifted to play the guitar like a, I don't know, a genius from birth or whatever. But-

Ryan Long 10:13 Yeah, but-

Chris Williamson 10:13 ... you need to write a ton of songs in order to work out that they're not good, and then you can create something which really is good, and then you can allow the creativity to sort of, "No, now it speaks through me and I can just be Rick Rubin," and like, you know, wear glasses, pop up, do something awesome, and fuck off again.

Ryan Long 10:26 Even when you've, you know, that, that kind of, I, I was thinking about it a lot in terms of, like, you know, the Drake, Kendrick Lamar, and Kanye West, and kind of rappers or musicians that have kinda been around forever. Where you, you kind of are like... You know, they were, when you think of, like, a young virtuoso and why, you know, why is, like, a young person generally better, uh, than an older person at music?

Chris Williamson 10:46 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 10:46 And it was like, well, because you're kind of a collection of a culture that you were, like, a part of, you know, in the start. When you were in grade six-

Chris Williamson 10:53 Hmm.

Ryan Long 10:53 ... or whatever-

Chris Williamson 10:53 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 10:53 ... you're a part of that music. So it's like you were a part of it, right? After you're older, it's v- you know, you're not gonna be very much a part of music cultures. You're not gonna be have, like, you know, you see the, like, intricacy, the fashion. You can kind of, like, study it and analyze it, but you didn't, like, feel it.

Chris Williamson 11:06 Yep.

Ryan Long 11:07 So I think every, when you talk about them being virtuoso, yeah, the actual technical component, but the impact on culture component, it kinda feels like they have, uh, you know, there's, you, you're saying, like, oh, um, you know, they just had it in them. But it's like, well, not really. They were, like, came up at a time and they, like, processed that in a way to spit it-

Chris Williamson 11:27 Yes.

Ryan Long 11:27 ... and they were able to be, like, part of what's happening next. But then how do they do it again? It was kind of like they almost just watch what's happening with the new one, and then they go and sort of, like, s- pretend they're part of it.

Chris Williamson 11:40 That's a really good-

Ryan Long 11:40 That's why you have an, now they, now I have an Auto-Tune album, now I have this, now I'm a...

Chris Williamson 11:44 Yeah. Well, I suppose the first album can be, uh, uh, groundbreaking and super interesting, but by album four, are you reinventing it each time? No, it's the new people that are inventing something completely orthogonal.

Ryan Long 11:55 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:55 And then you're repurposing what comes after that. Did you see that story that I found about, uh, Kanye West when he was writing, what was it? Betray the Throne, Enter the Throne? What was his fucking big album?... something, the throne. Anyway-

Ryan Long 12:07 I mean-

Chris Williamson 12:08 Uh, so Kanye was writing, writing-

Ryan Long 12:09 The end? Graduation? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:11 W- no. Uh, he was writing one of his, uh, one of his big albums. And, uh, apparently some guy went in to sit down and, and just watch him work in the studio, and he had Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen in the studio with him.

Ryan Long 12:24 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:24 He's like, "The fuck are Mary-Kate and Ashley Olsen doing here?" Kanye just turned around quick as a flash and went, "They're my thermometer for what white girls like."

Ryan Long 12:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:33 (laughs) Like true story. Fucking wild.

Ryan Long 12:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:37 Um, but yeah, like even then, you have this guy who's super competent and, and has got this sort of illustrious history and some questionable politics, and he is still outsource... He's got this, you know, somebody in there that acts as like a finger on the pulse of culture.

Ryan Long 12:52 Yeah, you become like a good barometer for where things are going.

Chris Williamson 12:55 Yes.

Ryan Long 12:56 But like you aren't-

Chris Williamson 12:56 You need to outsource some.

Ryan Long 12:57 ... actually part of it, 'cause it's not possible.

Chris Williamson 13:00 Correct. Yeah.

Ryan Long 13:00 Yeah, so I, I kind of feel like I try to have a grasp on those things so then they become not something that m- 'Cause things can like piss you off, where you're just... You know, for example, like the content thing, you're like, "Wha- the fact that that's the way the game is," or, you know, the fact that... I feel like a lot of these things can start to irritate you.

Chris Williamson 13:17 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 13:17 'Cause it maybe isn't the way you want it to be-

Chris Williamson 13:19 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 13:19 ... but if you, then you just become agnostic to things that are just, "Well, that's how it is."

Chris Williamson 13:23 Well, I understand that like you can start to hate the game that you're being made to play, even though you sort of didn't want to do it. Or you, you get resentful about the fact, "Why is it like this? Why couldn't it be, you know, back in the fucking '80s when I could take all this time and I didn't have to create all of this stuff, I could spend fucking three weeks walking through a meadow coming up with an idea with Jocko?" And I get it. But, uh, you're right. I, I think that working out a way to sort of, "All right, this is the price of doing business at the moment."

Ryan Long 13:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 13:50 It's just the, the entry cost to being in the world at this time. And look at all of the advantages where I can frictionlessly post something awesome that-

Ryan Long 13:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:57 ... reaches a few million people. Uh, but on the flip side of that, I'm gonna have to be a bit of a like content-

Ryan Long 14:02 And then also if you, if you can address it, you're like, "Well, how do I now react to it?" You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 14:07 Yes. And call it out.

Ryan Long 14:08 I was kinda thinking

Ryan Long 14:09 about, so if you look at, uh, there's kind of, you know, there's different times in culture where, you know, certain times where it's like... You know, probably like five years ago is there, there's a lot of things couldn't... It was hard to say things, you know what I mean? And it was very tense.

Chris Williamson 14:22 Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 14:23 And there was a, you know, kind of a lot of like truths to be said that weren't, you know, part of the public discourse.

Chris Williamson 14:29 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 14:29 And then now, it's kind of like all the stuff's been said.

Chris Williamson 14:32 Yes.

Ryan Long 14:32 You know what I mean? And I was kinda thinking that, um, if you look at what's, you know, a lot of people on the, in culture are right now, it's following from the front, if that makes sense. Where they're, they're really like following, but if you think of like a mob of people, 'cause you know, if... To some degree there's, you know, the media is being like, "Okay, we care about this now, we care about this now." But to some degree it is a little organic of whether, you know, whether, you know, this group of people likes this candidate, or we, we care about this, right? There is like organic directions of what, you know, movements go in.

Chris Williamson 15:06 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 15:06 And then it's kind of about pe- people are like in the, people that like were leaders in the last one, it's like them running around trying to catch up and act like they were leading.

Chris Williamson 15:14 Hmm.

Ryan Long 15:15 (laughs) You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 15:16 Right.

Ryan Long 15:16 So there's almost like people acting like they're leading groups of people.

Chris Williamson 15:19 Yeah.

Ryan Long 15:19 But really, it just kinda went there, and then they, they kinda run and then they c- go back.

Chris Williamson 15:22 And they get to the front.

Ryan Long 15:23 They go, "Oh yeah, we care about this now." And then you-

Chris Williamson 15:25 Well, it's-

Ryan Long 15:26 I mean, I could think of like 20 examples.

Chris Williamson 15:27 (laughs)

Ryan Long 15:27 But there's so many people that they're, they're following from the front louder.

Chris Williamson 15:31 That's a really fucking good insight that I hadn't considered. But you're right. It's, uh, it's the exact same, good example, uh, might be in Pride Month every year where the organizations change their flags. Mercedes and Xbox and fucking Nike or whatever change to a Pride flag. But they only change to Pride flags in countries where gender, uh, like sexual orientation equality has already been reached.

Ryan Long 15:58 Yeah, of course.

Chris Williamson 15:58 And in the Middle East, where it actually needs to be, work-

Ryan Long 16:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:01 ... needs to be done on it, though it's still the same. There's no change made at all. So that would be an example of like following from the front, where we're going to stake our claim and put the flag in the ground right here, this is us.

Ryan Long 16:13 Yeah, we're acting like we're leaders of this movement.

Chris Williamson 16:15 It's already been, this has already been won. The place where it needs to be done is the place where you're like, "Zup."

Ryan Long 16:21 Yeah, it definitely happens a lot in that kind of, you know, that, that, uh, you know, media-activism space. But yeah, it all, it happens in everywhere. Yeah, you'll see, you know, like you'll watch like the right-wing movement-

Chris Williamson 16:32 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 16:32 ... of like what, what's the thing they're all talking about now, right?

Chris Williamson 16:35 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 16:35 And, and then someone'll be kind of ac- you know, out, out front being like, you know, leading the flag and you're just like, "You didn't talk about this two years ago." And, and it's like, "Well, why?" It's like, "Well, you didn't lead them here, but you're acting like you did."

Chris Williamson 16:47 The like full horseshoe fucking infinity loop of the Bud Light conversation's been pretty interesting to watch.

Ryan Long 16:54 (laughs) Yeah, true.

Chris Williamson 16:54 I got in, I got in so much fucking, I got so much stick from people when I said, "All right, I get it, you know, Dylan Mulvaney, should she have, he have got a fucking six-pack of Bud Lights with the face on it, probably bad move from a marketing department. But really, does this mean that Bud Light is infused to its very core with woke progressive ideals that show that they're the anti-American communist country that you, company that you always knew they were? Is that really the case? Or is it probably just some person, some intern somewhere, that decided to do one thing?" And the right is always the, "We mustn't cancel people for one small slip-up. That seems like way too judgmental. This person didn't mean to say that." And you go, "Eh, you're not extending the same luxury, the, the same sort of, uh, charity to this other side." And then I got shit for that. And then fucking a Post Malone and Shane Gillis sponsorship later, everyone on the right is now fucking... What's his face, the guy that shot it up with the 50 cal?

Ryan Long 17:54 Bud Light did a pretty good job of making a comeback. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:56 They fucking fully, like just fixed everything. They Human Centipede'd everybody.

Ryan Long 17:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:59 And you're like, "Oh, okay, so like somehow everyone's asshole is in everybody else's mouth and it just sort of loops all the way around." So stuff like that, it's like people are so prepared to even... The outrage is like circular. They're prepared to be at the front of, "Well, actually being...... gracious with Bud Light. That's the position that we should take. How many people are still holding their feet to the fire now? No one.

Ryan Long 18:22 Well, I g- yeah, there's almost like 100 things going on at once with the Bud Light thing, which you're right, it is a pretty good like case study of everything. 'Cause I guess there was one part where, th- you know, the principle, there's, there's always kind of an argument to, or like between, hey, are we trying to win or are we trying to, you know, have principles?

Chris Williamson 18:39 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 18:40 And those things are almost always (laughs) like go against each other, you know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 18:45 Yes.

Ryan Long 18:45 Like in- in- in any political movement, it's kind of like, "Are we trying to win?" Then you're like... I- I mean, with political movements, it's always kind of like that's why they- they get sort of hijacked by cynical actors always because, you know, there's always just a bunch of energy there, and then someone can take it and be like, "Well, I have some goal here." And then I guess, so I don't think anyone was specifically outraged with Bud Light as much as they're like, "Well, here's the poster child."

Chris Williamson 19:11 Yes.

Ryan Long 19:11 And then I think there's like a rationalization where you can say where, "Well, they aren't gonna realize what it's like unless we do it back to them." And you know, you-

Chris Williamson 19:19 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 19:19 ... that can go on forever, but...

Chris Williamson 19:20 Yes. Yeah. I asked, uh-

Ryan Long 19:22 But you go, you're not- you're not a political actor. Like, you're not running for office. You're not running a political movement. So you're like, "Why do I have to pretend I care?"

Chris Williamson 19:29 Yes.

Ryan Long 19:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 19:30 Well, I- I asked-

Ryan Long 19:31 And you're- you're- sorry to interrupt again.

Chris Williamson 19:32 Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Long 19:32 You're normal buddy. It's one thing you go, "I get your thing. You have a whole channel, like telling people how to vote or whatever." But you- your normal person being like, "Don't- you don't get sucked in."

Chris Williamson 19:42 Yeah. You don't need to be-

Ryan Long 19:43 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 19:43 ... complicit as a normal dude on the street. You have enough stuff to worry about. There's a fuckstorm.

Ryan Long 19:46 Yeah, don't get sucked into their bullshit.

Chris Williamson 19:48 There's a hurricane outside. I asked, uh, Jeremy Boreing, who's the CEO of Daily Wire, and I asked Shapiro this as well. I was like, maybe similar to your leading following from the front thing, it's like a lot of what the platform of right-wing sort of commentary has been over the last six years, seven years or so has very much been, uh, anti-woke. And that disco- it's been like reactionary. Here is a crazy new flag that's got 55 different colors, and here is a person that got jailed for bird scootering over a crosswalk that was put down with the pride flag on it and all the rest of it. That very much was the position. But I think you're right. Over the last five years ago or so, the things that you couldn't say, largely now most people are saying. Most people are, I think we're past peak woke. We're very...

Ryan Long 20:37 Yeah, yeah, that stuff's-

Chris Williamson 20:38 It's kind of gone. But I was like, okay, so given that you guys have made so much of your platform off the back of this, are you worried that when most people probably agree with this position-

Ryan Long 20:47 I think there'll always be a space for just being like a meat and potatoes conservative commentator. Uh, you know what I mean? I think you look at some of those guys where you're just like, "Wait, what's that guy been..." You know, w- I don't know, like what's the guy, like, I don't know. I think not him, but like the Rush Limbaugh, the Glenn Becks of the world.

Chris Williamson 21:01 Yep, yep.

Ryan Long 21:01 You're like, "Oh yeah, remember that guy?" You're like, "'Member that guy?" He got four million viewers every morning-

Chris Williamson 21:06 Yeah.

Ryan Long 21:06 ... in seven hours (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 21:07 Yeah. Over the span of about a year, I tried pretty much every green strength that I could find to try and work out which one was best. And I came across AG1 and have stuck with it for over three years because it is the best. It's the most comprehensive, it's the most highly tested, it's the most rigorously formulated of any green strength that exists. They genuinely care about holistic health, which is why I've got my mom to take it and my dad to take it, and tons of my friends as well, and why I've put it inside of my body for over three years. And if I found anything that was better, I would switch, but I haven't, which is why I still use it. The formulation is built to improve your health, not just when you take it for one week, but when you use it every single day for years. And that is why I keep using it. If you're not sure, there's a 90-day money back guarantee. So you can buy it and try it, and if you do not like it, they will give you your money back right now. You can get a year's free supply of vitamin D3, K2, and five free AG1 travel packs, plus that 90-day money back guarantee by going to the link in the description below or heading to drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. That's drinkag1.com/modernwisdom. Your new

Chris Williamson 22:12 special taught me, uh, that, and- and I think this is right, companies are either getting in trouble at the moment for being too gay or not gay enough.

Ryan Long 22:21 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:22 That's the, that's the way that they exist.

Ryan Long 22:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:24 Too gay or not gay enough.

Ryan Long 22:25 Yeah, there was a, there was a pretty good, there was a pretty good rip there, where (laughs) like companies were having a hard time finding the perfect amount of gay to be. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:35 (laughs) I s- I found on that, I did a little bit of research. Uh, Toyota won't sponsor Pride events following backlash from an anti-woke mob. So Pink News, which I think is like- like a gay website. Um, in a memo sent to 50,000 US employees in more than 1,500 dealerships, the company said the decision follows a highly politicized discussion around business commitments to DEI, not sporting festivals and parades. According to Bloomberg, they're not participating in some other stuff, and DEI and all of that. They're stopping all of that. Anyway, uh, so I did a bit more digging, and it turns out that there's a lot of companies that are sort of quietly rolling back their DEI efforts. And-

Ryan Long 23:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:11 ... Pink News, uh, has big problem with this. But-

Ryan Long 23:15 I can't imagine Pink News loves it. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:16 Yep. The choice of companies that they were getting outraged about rolling back their DEI efforts. This is the best list. So th- this-

Ryan Long 23:26 Oh, this is a list of not gay enough? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:27 Yeah, this is the list of not g- was too gay for their customers, now-

Ryan Long 23:31 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 23:31 ... not gay enough for Pink News.

Ryan Long 23:33 They're gay.

Chris Williamson 23:33 But they highlighted that they could have done it and they're in real shit. Okay, so this is a list of companies who have rolled back their DEI efforts, uh, because of right-wing pressure and are not providing an inclusive working environment. John Deere, the tractor manufacturer.

Ryan Long 23:47 I remember the J- I saw the John Deere hustle bustle. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:50 Jack Daniels, Harley-Davidson, Ford, Lowe's, Molson Coors, and Stanley Black & Decker. I'm like, you couldn't have picked a list of less gay companies-

Ryan Long 24:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 24:06 ... to be angry about the fact-

Ryan Long 24:07 I think Harley Davidson was actually doing some stuff.

Chris Williamson 24:10 What were they doing?

Ryan Long 24:11 I- I- I don't know exactly, but I think they were just... Th- th- it all b- a- a lot of it is kind of that...There was a moment where, you know, if you look at it like stocks, right? There was a moment where there was like an arbitrage opportunity, where a lot of these companies were like, "You know, we can make money by pandered into this bullshit."

Chris Williamson 24:27 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 24:27 "It's an easy way to get clicks."

Chris Williamson 24:29 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 24:29 The problem is, if you stay in those waters for too long, before you know it, you have actual people in your company that believe it.

Chris Williamson 24:36 (laughs)

Ryan Long 24:36 Whereas, like (laughs) , you know, at the top, you're just like, "Oh, this is... Yeah, okay, this is what you do to get press or whatever," and they probably don't give two shits. And then, yeah, but if you're in that for four years, you have turnover. Now it's like, now you have 35% of the people, and also you have to, you have to sell the bullshit to the company.

Chris Williamson 24:50 Yes.

Ryan Long 24:50 And then you're like, "Well, guess what? Now they all believe it, so you can't..." When it's, when it's no longer an arbitrage opportunity-

Chris Williamson 24:56 Yes. It's no longer cool.

Ryan Long 24:56 ... and you're like-

Chris Williamson 24:57 You've got to, you've got this like, uh, fucking-

Ryan Long 24:59 There's no value in it, like monetarily for a company.

Chris Williamson 25:02 Exactly.

Ryan Long 25:02 Well, now what do you do? How do you, how do you back out of it?

Chris Williamson 25:05 It just blows my mind that those were the co- th- this was like the vanguard of the issue of, "We can't believe that these companies aren't supporting LGBTQ rights." I'm like, "John Deere? Really?" Is that the (laughs) tip of the spear of-

Ryan Long 25:20 They probably had s- You know, a lot of these companies, I- I've seen this a lot in television. Like, I've, you know, worked in television a lot, where it's like, there's... And especially, you'll, you'll talk to, you know, a lot of people that are higher up and they're like, "You know, we're not about this life," but they, you know, they kind of hired some hip new marketing team, and the marketing team's like, "This is what you do. You post all this stuff." And they're kind of right at that time. They're like-

Chris Williamson 25:41 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 25:41 ... "If you wanna get a lot of clicks." And now I think people have a little bit of a difference between like what's a good click and a bad click. You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 25:47 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 25:47 Whereas before you're like, "Hey, I did your ad campaign. It has 18 million views," and you go, "Well, if you look under it, you'll see that that's most people saying they hate us." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 25:55 Well, I wonder if, uh, if the-

Ryan Long 25:57 So-

Chris Williamson 25:57 ... Bud Light thing has kind of highlighted to companies that caving into pressure, that they're then gonna have to go back on. I think Gillette is still kind of out in the wings. That I don't think-

Ryan Long 26:08 Yeah. Caving into pressure-

Chris Williamson 26:10 ... that they ever-

Ryan Long 26:10 ... is being generous, because I would say it is like, you know, being vultures trying to, you know, be able to cash in on this like little energy that's in this social movement.

Chris Williamson 26:18 Oh, they're, they're sort of, um, predestining the pressure-

Ryan Long 26:20 Yeah, I don't, I don't think they're innocent in this.

Chris Williamson 26:22 ... that's going to come. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ryan Long 26:22 I think there was like... You know, I mean, we have people, and you're in this industry. I'm sure you see all the time where, you know, like some, like something is like a trend, and there's people that sort of like address the trend but stay themself, and then there's certain people that are trying to like really cash it in, and you can see that.

Chris Williamson 26:40 I'm just waiting for Russia Today's-

Ryan Long 26:41 And you-

Chris Williamson 26:41 ... $10 million check.

Ryan Long 26:42 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:43 I'm still... Fucking dude. Tenant Media, where are you at? Come, come pay me. I thought Lauren Chen had my number. Um...

Ryan Long 26:50 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:51 But yeah, I, it's, I- I... This was... I spoke about this on the show a couple of weeks ago. We got this email through just the general contact form on the, on my website that said, um, "We want to pitch this person to come on the show, and we're willing to pay a six-figure sum to bring them on, and, uh, the topics that we would like to discuss," and-

Ryan Long 27:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:11 ... the fucking list of topics were all like oil prices in the Middle East.

Ryan Long 27:15 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:15 I'm... This is some Saudi deep state conspiracy bullshit, and, uh, yeah, it's fu- it's funny, man. It's really funny.

Ryan Long 27:22 I mean that would... You know what that would be funny though? If you- if you ever wanna do it, is have those people on, and then allow us to do like a prank show thing with them.

Chris Williamson 27:29 (laughs)

Ryan Long 27:30 Like have the people on that are paying 100 grand, and then give them 100 grand back after. But like have them in and like prank them where we're not doing any of this

Ryan Long 27:36 stuff. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:36 Have you been watching... Who's that guy? Uh, No Cap On God?

Ryan Long 27:39 Yeah, I know that guy.

Chris Williamson 27:40 Yeah. Fuck me, he is so good at what he d-... I mean, you have this like on-street thing. I can't do it. My cringe meter, my British cringe meter-

Ryan Long 27:50 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 27:50 ... just goes through the roof even saying-

Ryan Long 27:52 It's very British.

Chris Williamson 27:53 It is. Thank you. It's very prim and proper. But it goes through the roof watching you do your thing, uh, where... What was it that you were... Uh, you were walking through Times Square asking people to donate money to Trump's legal fund?

Ryan Long 28:06 Oh, I- I had a while where I was... I had a bunch of different like funds I was getting people to donate to. I tried to get the... I wanted to do one where I was like, "Did Alex Jones' legal fund?" Then I did Trump's legal fund, and then I did tr- Uh, Tucker Carlson was making a doc, Killery and Liberal Lies.

Chris Williamson 28:20 (laughs)

Ryan Long 28:20 And I was asking... (laughs) But the Trump one, yeah, the Trump one I was telling people in New York, I said that they have a chan-... They get entered into a raffle to win a chance to go to lunch with Barron Trump.

Chris Williamson 28:29 (laughs)

Ryan Long 28:30 They're like... And she goes, "I would never wanna go to lunch with Barron Trump." I'm like, "Well, it's not a guarantee you're gonna win. It's just a-"

Chris Williamson 28:35 (laughs) .

Ryan Long 28:40 ... (laughs) shit's so funny.

Chris Williamson 28:44 (laughs) Yeah, I think-

Ryan Long 28:46 I think you're getting ahead of yourself, isn't (laughs) ...

Chris Williamson 28:48 Yeah, it's a guaranteed.

Ryan Long 28:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:49 Uh, those on-street interviews are, for me, like I- I love watching them but I can't, I can't deal with them. And the, the dude from No Cap On God, Li- Lionel, Lin- Lionel, I think is his name, uh, is fucking sweet. Uh, did you see that Trump had his own line of Bibles? Do you see this story?

Ryan Long 29:07 Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's on a lot of fucking wacky stuff. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:10 He's got, he's got it all. Uh-

Ryan Long 29:11 Shoes, Bibles.

Chris Williamson 29:12 It turns out that Trump's God Bless the USA Bibles were made in China. Uh, the official Bibles of Donald Trump are printed in China, it has been revealed. Thousands of copies-

Ryan Long 29:22 Goat.

Chris Williamson 29:22 ... of his God Bless the USA Bible printed in a country that the former president has repeatedly accused of stealing American jobs. Trump never said where they were printed or what they cost. A copy hand-signed by the former president sells for $1,000. Uh, so yeah. Look, maybe they c- maybe he could offer one of the signed Bibles as well.

Ryan Long 29:42 Yeah (laughs) . Yeah, it's like-

Chris Williamson 29:42 'Cause you could probably guarantee that.

Ryan Long 29:43 Dude, that was... I've actually been talking about this on stage a bit, that it is funny to me that Fox News can't get good commercials, so, uh, they just have to sell junk to old people. And Rumble has that a little bit, but you know Fox... CNN's always like, you know, McDonald's and the most multicultural-

Chris Williamson 29:59 Bullshit.

Ryan Long 29:59 ... family of all time just enjoying a bag of Doritos. As in, combos you don't even see, like Asian guy, Black woman, Indian son.

Chris Williamson 30:06 (laughs)

Ryan Long 30:06 (laughs) No stereotypes in this house. The Asian and the woman are both really good drivers.

Chris Williamson 30:11 (laughs)

Ryan Long 30:11 Just shit you never see, right?And then you go to Fox News, they're like, "Rise up, patriots. This is- th- this is, uh, shrapnel of 9/11 that is made into a- a bucket of Trump's cum, but-"

Chris Williamson 30:23 (laughs)

Ryan Long 30:24 "...you know, thi- this is a scab of R- off Ronald Reagan's arm when he was..." But, uh, it's just, like, there was one where (laughs) ... Oh, this is what it was. This is what made me start. I think I was... I can't remember if it was Rumble or Fox or whatever, but I was watching something, and it started out, the ad just pops up, and I actually burst out laughing where it goes, "Sleepy Joe doesn't want you to see this." And (laughs) there was, like, a coin or something. Like-

Chris Williamson 30:49 (laughs)

Ryan Long 30:49 (laughs) But it... (laughs) But it just out of the- out of the blue. "Sleepy Joe doesn't want you to see this." (laughs) I was dying.

Chris Williamson 30:57 That's...

Ryan Long 30:57 (laughs) That's, like, that's the funniest thing I've ever seen.

Chris Williamson 30:59 That is go-... You are right that the-

Ryan Long 31:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:01 ... like, right-wing adverts versus left-wing adverts. Have you done a sketch?

Ryan Long 31:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:04 You must have done a sketch on there.

Ryan Long 31:04 I did a sketch a while ago, and they did... Then- then, like, a lot of the things have happened because they said they were selling patriot water. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:11 Oh, fu-... Yeah, there is actually... What's it called?

Ryan Long 31:12 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:12 Like, Patriot 2.0. or some shit like that.

Ryan Long 31:14 Yeah, it just... Uh, the only thing they haven't done is patriot air, where it's (laughs) just, like, air for patriots.

Chris Williamson 31:19 Yeah, yeah. There's... No immigrants have dr- have- have breathed this air, and-

Ryan Long 31:22 (laughs) It's a good air.

Chris Williamson 31:23 Fucking hell. Uh, the other

Chris Williamson 31:25 thing-

Ryan Long 31:25 But, yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:25 The other thing from your special that we need to talk about, uh, you taught me that there is a YouTube niche of breastfeeding advice.

Ryan Long 31:35 Oh. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:35 And I didn't even know that this was a thing. I- I mean, I guess that you need advice for everything.

Ryan Long 31:40 I wish I didn't know it was a thing. But you... I hope you... I hope you're not in the situation I am, 'cause the problem with the algorithms... And this is... I've been saying this with... You know, I- I got on disability TikTok, right? Which is-

Chris Williamson 31:51 (laughs)

Ryan Long 31:52 What are you a jerk off to? So (laughs) there's this guy, he just, like, rolls around. He's got no arms and legs. And there's, like, a bunch of him, right? And, and he's... This guy's... Uh, you're laughing. That guy's crushing. He's probably a bazillionaire right now.

Chris Williamson 32:04 (laughs)

Ryan Long 32:05 This guy rolling into a bag of money, right?

Chris Williamson 32:08 (laughs)

Ryan Long 32:08 But (laughs) the thing is, the algorithm, it's so wild because you don't ask for it, but it... You know, if you were... I said if you were walking around the street and there was a guy rolling around on the floor, or, like, taking a shit in the alley, like, of course you would look more than you would just look at a normal person. And then the algorithm's like, "Oh, that's your shit, huh?" So it's like, that's- that's all you get now. So, if you walk... Like, so now when I see any freak show content, I try to scroll as fast as I can.

Chris Williamson 32:34 Right. Okay. (laughs)

Ryan Long 32:35 But I guess they got me with the breastfeeding one (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 32:39 (laughs)

Ryan Long 32:40 'Cause they kee-... Like, I'm just... Dude, it's a literal, like, you know, OnlyFans chick just sitting there. You know, fake bab-... Oh, I don't know if you... I didn't mention that part in the special. They got fake babies too. So-

Chris Williamson 32:51 Right.

Ryan Long 32:51 ... basically it's a loophole that you can be nude on Instagram if it's breastfeeding content.

Chris Williamson 32:55 Okay, even if it's not a real child?

Ryan Long 32:57 Well, I don't know the logistics of the real or fake child 'cause maybe you could say it's, uh, you know, they're... it's educational.

Chris Williamson 33:02 Practicing. It's a practice child.

Ryan Long 33:03 Yeah, and, uh, you know, and they say it's for new mothers. That's why on my- my special, I'm just like, "Yeah, it's 10,000 new mothers. That's who's watching this." But... So they have basically fake babies now, and then they (laughs) they're feeding this to me, man. I'm the demo that-

Chris Williamson 33:18 (laughs)

Ryan Long 33:18 I don't watch it anymore. They keep giving it to me.

Chris Williamson 33:21 (laughs)

Ryan Long 33:21 They're like, "You did that one time. No, you love it."

Chris Williamson 33:23 Well, it's funny to work out-

Ryan Long 33:24 "You love it."

Chris Williamson 33:24 ... whether or not it- it was, like, them activating a secret thing that you actually did want in the back of your mind or-

Ryan Long 33:30 What, tits?

Chris Williamson 33:30 Yeah. Oh, yeah, true. (laughs)

Ryan Long 33:31 Oh, yeah, fucking zany me.

Chris Williamson 33:32 (laughs)

Ryan Long 33:33 I- I... If I'm seeing a f- full out pair of tits on my timeline, I- I scroll a little slower. Fucking wacko. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:40 I remember (laughs) ... I remember reading the, uh, TikTok terms of service thing that was in some news article, and they were talking about how the app is allowed to use the front-facing camera to detect micro-expressions.

Ryan Long 33:53 How would it... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:54 They must have mapped the way that your face moves.

Ryan Long 33:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:57 And then it's watching you looking, and you see some of the- the breastfeeding content.

Ryan Long 34:00 Oh, so if you go like that?

Chris Williamson 34:02 Well, yeah, but that's a reaction, right?

Ryan Long 34:03 Oh.

Chris Williamson 34:03 So maybe that's good, maybe that's bad. I'm sure they've, like, matched-

Ryan Long 34:05 What's the micro (laughs) ...

Chris Williamson 34:07 ... the- the micro-expression to breastfee- fake breastfeeding porn. Real breastfeeding porn to a fake baby, I guess, technically. Uh-

Ryan Long 34:14 I mean, yeah. Whatever. You hacked the system. You figured out how to be nude on the internet to get people to subscribe to your things and get views. It's, uh, probably good, but... Yeah, the problem is now the algorithm is just, the whole thing's based on, did you look at it for longer than you looked at the last thing? So if-

Chris Williamson 34:28 This is now your thing. Hey, guess what?

Ryan Long 34:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:30 This is, this is your entire identity.

Ryan Long 34:32 Yeah, and, well, that's... You know, it's one thing to be, like, you know, "You're... You tricked me into having an algorithm full of boobs." It's a whole 'nother thing to be like, "You tricked me into having a whole algorithm full of, like, guys whose faces are burned off."

Chris Williamson 34:44 Right, or rolling ar-... Quadriplegics rolling around-

Ryan Long 34:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:47 ... in bags of money.

Ryan Long 34:48 You know what I try-... I tried to hack my algorithm where I went and just... So my f-... I (laughs) have my f- my Facebook and my Bois Cast-

Chris Williamson 34:54 (laughs)

Ryan Long 34:54 ... uh, page, so I only scroll through those, and I, I loaded my thing up, and I watch, like, only horse hoof tutorials. So no (laughs) so now-

Chris Williamson 35:03 It thinks you're a rancher.

Ryan Long 35:05 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:06 And what, are you still getting delivered all of the horse-

Ryan Long 35:07 That's the majority of what I get now. I- I have, like, favorite hoof guys now and stuff like that.

Chris Williamson 35:13 (laughs)

Ryan Long 35:14 Like, I have... I- I literally, like, watch hoof content of a guy just cleaning off, and I'll be like, "Guy's missing a spot." Like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:20 (laughs)

Ryan Long 35:21 Nate, the Hoof Guy, would never miss that.

Chris Williamson 35:22 He's... Yeah, exactly.

Ryan Long 35:22 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:23 He's nowhere near as- as good as Dry Creek Dwayne.

Ryan Long 35:25 And then I got into horseshoes too. So I got... I've got horses, cows' hoofs. So that's all I get right now. And actually, life's been better. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:31 Right. (laughs) Yeah. Ever since I pivoted from watching breastfeeding content to horse hoof cleaning content-

Ryan Long 35:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:37 ... everything's gone right. So, uh, I wanted to teach you about this book that I read a couple of years ago. Um, the number one Google search in India that starts with-

Ryan Long 35:46 Barb.

Chris Williamson 35:46 ... the sentence, "My husband wants..." is, "My husband wants me to breastfeed him."

Ryan Long 35:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 35:53 So, porn featuring adult breastfeeding is higher in India than anywhere else in the world.

Ryan Long 35:58 Why is that?

Chris Williamson 35:59 In just about every country, nearly all Google searches looking for advice on breastfeeding is how to breastfeed a baby. In India, Google searches looking for breastfeeding advice are equally split between how to breastfeed a baby and how to breastfeed your husband.

Ryan Long 36:14 So... (laughs) I mean, it has to be... I know a guy who's into this. Uh, uh, have you met my buddy JJ? He's in-

Chris Williamson 36:21 (laughs)

Ryan Long 36:22 You met- you met JJ? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Ryan Long 36:24 Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Chris Williamson 36:25 Is he Indian?

Ryan Long 36:26 Uh, no. It-

Chris Williamson 36:26 He should be.

Ryan Long 36:27 (laughs) Yeah. But it's- it- they have some messed up thing. He's got a, you know, overbearing Jewish mother that he's freaking messed with -

Chris Williamson 36:32 Right, okay.

Ryan Long 36:33 ... on his brain.

Chris Williamson 36:33 That he's got a fucking Oedipus complex about.

Ryan Long 36:35 So, Indian dudes, I... Where I gr-... I grew up in, like, right around Toronto, which is, like, huge Indian population. So, a lot of people where I grew up with are Indian. I got relatives that are Indian. Um, uh, they do have a culture of a bit of an overbearing mother, I think.

Chris Williamson 36:49 Mm.

Ryan Long 36:49 So, India... Especially, like, the boys are very, like, the golden child to the mom. So, you know, to some degree, uh-

Chris Williamson 36:56 They're gonna be babied later in life as well.

Ryan Long 36:58 It's gotta be related to s-... You know, obviously that has something to do with mom shit, right?

Chris Williamson 37:02 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 37:03 And maybe it's something to do with... Like, I think Indian people have that same, like, overbearing Jewish mother, like, an overbearing Jew-... or Indian mother -

Chris Williamson 37:08 But I wonder why it's not-

Ryan Long 37:09 ... kind of like that.

Chris Williamson 37:09 I w-... I don't know how much sort of Jew breastfeeding-

Ryan Long 37:10 And the dad, you're always gonna get hurt real bad. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:14 It... (laughs) I wonder how much Jew breastfeeding porn there is. Uh, definitely not between the hours of whatever it is, 6:00 PM on a Friday. Uh, so this HuffPost person that was doing this bit -

Ryan Long 37:23 Well then, you know why the Jewish people do it?

Chris Williamson 37:24 Why?

Ryan Long 37:25 Well, because milk's free. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:28 You're awful. You- (laughs)

Ryan Long 37:30 (laughs) ... in that scenario too.

Chris Williamson 37:30 You're awful. Uh, so this HuffPost person, uh, put a search in. Uh, put... uh, searched, "My husband wants me..." Top searches that came up, "My husband wants me to breastfeed him. My husband wants me to abort our first baby. My husband wants me to sleep with other men. My husband wants me to quit-"

Ryan Long 37:48 Wow.

Chris Williamson 37:48 "... my husband wants me to quit my job." And then a conservative person did it at HuffPost, "My husband wants divorce, breast milk, oral all the time, me to breastfeed him." Like, this breastfeeding stuff-

Ryan Long 38:01 I mean, oral all the time-

Chris Williamson 38:01 ... is real.

Ryan Long 38:01 ... is not that crazy, I guess.

Chris Williamson 38:03 Are you... But that's four... That- that came in as, like, third-

Ryan Long 38:05 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:06 ... after divorce and breast milk.

Ryan Long 38:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:08 It didn't even appear for the liberal person either.

Ryan Long 38:10 What's your theory as to why?

Chris Williamson 38:12 I don't know. The Indian thing's really... I wondered whether it was maybe something to do with the sacredness-

Ryan Long 38:16 You're from London. London's super high Indian population, similar.

Chris Williamson 38:18 Yeah, yeah, uh, it... The whole UK is, um-

Ryan Long 38:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:21 ... p- pretty high sort of subcontinental stuff. But I wa-... I wondered whether it was something to do with, like, cows, cow milk, the sacredness of cows?

Ryan Long 38:28 (laughs) Saying their mom's fat?

Chris Williamson 38:31 (laughs) No. I thought it might be something-

Ryan Long 38:35 You- you think it's the sacredness of cows? No, you're cr-... That's not it? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:38 No, I... evidently not. No.

Ryan Long 38:39 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:39 You- you- you've gotta have a more sophisticated fucking thought process. I don't know. I don't know what's going on. Ask JJ. I'm sure he m-... he might be part of this.

Ryan Long 38:46 I'm telling you, it's messed up mother stuff.

Chris Williamson 38:47 Okay. And what? So, all of India, overbearing mothers just across the entire country?

Ryan Long 38:52 Well, not every... Yeah, I mean, a lot of Indians, so I don't know if all of them are on the f-... on the breastfeeding (laughs) searches.

Chris Williamson 38:57 Well, it's an equal-

Ryan Long 38:57 I'll tell you another thing. Okay, this is my other theory. That's like... You know how... That's like being in defeat, like, one above that in a sense where it's like, it's not... I'm not th-... uh, maybe I'm not that crazy yet. You know what I mean? In their mind, they're like, "This is, like... I'm fucking this kinky dude." But it's-

Chris Williamson 39:16 Uh-huh.

Ryan Long 39:16 ... it's... You haven't fully crossed over into y- y-... you know, the craziest stuff.

Chris Williamson 39:20 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 39:20 So, maybe this is, like, a trans-

Chris Williamson 39:21 It's not dead animal necrophilia.

Ryan Long 39:23 Yeah, maybe that's one of those things where it's, like, India's getting into breastfeeding stuff.

Chris Williamson 39:27 Oh.

Ryan Long 39:27 And you're just like, "Oh yeah, that was America 25 years ago." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:30 Are you saying... Are you saying that it's a gateway drug?

Ryan Long 39:33 That's what I'm... uh, that's my hypothesis. And I'm-

Chris Williamson 39:35 Breastfeeding porn is a gateway drug...

Ryan Long 39:37 ... p-... ten-

Chris Williamson 39:37 ... into much more hardcore stuff.

Ryan Long 39:38 Yeah, this might be, like, a transitional period. You go... You check in on India seven years from now, you're like, "That's not even in the top tw-... (laughs) that didn't even crack at the top 20."

Chris Williamson 39:45 It's like, uh, when they- did they look at chimpanzees and stuff, and they say, "It seems like chimpanzees are beginning to first use tools and, like-"

Ryan Long 39:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:51 It's like, "Oh my God, I'm watching them evolve in front of my eyes."

Ryan Long 39:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 39:54 And it's the same thing, but with, like, degenerate porn for Indian people.

Ryan Long 39:57 Ye-... uh, exactly. This might be a transitionary step, but I think it's also a transitionary step because of the mother stuff.

Chris Williamson 40:03 Right. I wonder what we're gonna see in a few decade's time, and we're gonna be like... Like sedimentary rock, we can just track the Pornhub searches of all of the, uh, like, everybody across the world and see who's out front. That being

Chris Williamson 40:16 said, uh, Japanese men-

Ryan Long 40:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:19 ... have recently become obsessed with tickling porn. More than 10% of Pornhub searches for young Japanese men are for tickling.

Ryan Long 40:26 That one, I really don't have a s-... I don't know Japanese guys. I know Indian people pretty well. I don't know Ja-... the Japanese as well.

Chris Williamson 40:32 They wanna be tickled.

Ryan Long 40:32 So-

Chris Williamson 40:32 That's what you... That's all you need to know.

Ryan Long 40:34 I mean, if I was to guess, um... Oh, this is, uh, completely outta nowhere.

Chris Williamson 40:40 What, you're saying that this isn't a well-researched opinion that you're about to put in front of us that's backed by data?

Ryan Long 40:44 I feel like my Indian stuff's on the money. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:46 (laughs) Okay.

Ryan Long 40:48 I feel like I'm tapped into the Indian culture.

Chris Williamson 40:50 Okay.

Ryan Long 40:50 Uh, Japanese stuff, my guess would be that Japanese culture is very childlike.

Chris Williamson 40:56 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 40:56 You know, if... like, if you look at all the... you know, they have the girls where it's hot and they're basically, like, dressed like, you know-

Chris Williamson 41:02 Schoolgirls.

Ryan Long 41:03 Yeah, uh, schoolgirls.

Chris Williamson 41:04 Anime and shit.

Ryan Long 41:04 Like, the anime kid stuff. So, if you think of, you know, that stuff being very popular, uh-

Chris Williamson 41:09 Oh, it's, like, babying.

Ryan Long 41:11 Tickling is very cartoony.

Chris Williamson 41:12 Ah, I think you might be onto something there. That wasn't total dog shit. That was-

Ryan Long 41:16 Yeah, that has t-... Uh, I... if I was to make a connection between two things, it's the childlike, you know, fashion stuff versus, uh... You know, that stuff... uh, you know, you do... you do change your.... You know, like... I... d-... uh, you ever watch, like, a- a movie about, like, you know, uh, a n-... like, a place that's all not white people, and you know, whether that be Asian or... you know, and then you leave that st-... Like, let's say you watch the whole thing about fucking Jamaica or something, then you leave that kind of being like, "I like bl-... I think I'm into Black girls."

Chris Williamson 41:48 (laughs)

Ryan Long 41:48 Like, you know what I mean? Like, it does change your... Whatever you're around obviously changes, like, your-

Chris Williamson 41:52 So, are you saying that you've got this, like, uh, proximity, like, impact on what you're attracted to because-

Ryan Long 41:58 Well, that's for sure true, it's just the extent of which each person is... You know, that's just a nature-nurture conversation, right?

Chris Williamson 42:04 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 42:04 And for every person, that's whatever percentage. But what chicks are into is for sure nature-nurture. There's gotta be a split, right?

Chris Williamson 42:10 Yes. Well, I mean, you can't be into something-

Ryan Long 42:12 So, if you're always just, you know, surrounded by, like, all of the imagery of hot chicks, is them being like, "Mm..."... like, you know.

Chris Williamson 42:19 You- you... Yeah. Okay, that's interesting.

Ryan Long 42:21 Then you're just like, "Oh, yeah, like, kid shit."

Chris Williamson 42:22 Well that's the s- the... That's the s- that's the same thing about, uh, are you finding something that you're genuinely interested in from the algorithm, or is it training you to be interested in what it wants you to click on?

Ryan Long 42:32 I know. And, uh, this is kind of, uh, you know, the very negative parts about all of, like, algorithmic-based, you know, art form. I mean, it's moving closer to, you know, no-property-law China kinda thing.

Chris Williamson 42:45 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 42:45 But the more important thing is, that isn't a metric. So if you were a company and, I mean, you are a company. And if you said, "Okay, I did this thing," if you made a video and it got more views, right, and people watched it more, but most of them hated it and no one, you know, signed up for your stuff, no one's... You know, you would consider that, "Well, let's not move in that direction." Like, views is not your only metric. Their m- main metric is how long you watched it.

Chris Williamson 43:10 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 43:11 Again, if I'm walking by and a guy is shitting on the street, I will probably look at that longer than a guy who's sitting in a chair doing nothing. I didn't prefer that.

Chris Williamson 43:20 (laughs)

Ryan Long 43:22 So, that is inaccurate. And I'll tell you where it leads to, is because I just stopped using the apps like that. Okay, so TikTok's the most like that.

Chris Williamson 43:30 Hm.

Ryan Long 43:31 And I- I know e- everyone... You know the joke everyone always makes, is they go, you go, "I actually don't like that," and you go, "Sure, bud. It's based... You know, the algorithm knows you better than you do." It's like, well, sure, the same way that you go, if I h- if I was sitting in my house and every day there was like the best food in the world or something healthy, you know, or the best-tasting food or something healthy, or the hottest girl or, you know, uh, someone that you're not gonna get in trouble for sleeping with (laughs) , you know, every day, you would still wanna make those d- you would still... Eventually you would stop going to that room, you would stop going to that party, like, you know, the same reason. So eventually, I just kind of stopped using the apps that I go, "I don't like this more."

Chris Williamson 44:08 Yep.

Ryan Long 44:09 You go, "Yeah, technically you're, like, good at, like, keeping me here longer, but that doesn't mean I like it more."

Chris Williamson 44:13 So does, uh... Do you know what-

Ryan Long 44:15 Like shows that... Uh, here's a perfect example, sorry to-

Chris Williamson 44:18 No.

Ryan Long 44:18 ... ramble on about this. But I- I stopped watching shows that force, you know... Uh, uh, there was a s- uh, shows used to be kind of episodic, and then they realized, you know, when it went to the streaming model that, "We need to end everything with like a huge cliffhanger to keep you involved," right?

Chris Williamson 44:34 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 44:35 I stop, I stopped watching shows like that. So I won't watch shows that are episodic because, yeah, I, like, can't go to sleep if I'm watching and it's like, "I need to watch more episodes." It's like, "Yeah, but then I won't do it the next day."

Chris Williamson 44:44 Right.

Ryan Long 44:44 So you don't-

Chris Williamson 44:45 Unless you can watch the entire thing to the series finale before you go to bed.

Ryan Long 44:49 Yeah, you beat me in the short term-

Chris Williamson 44:50 Yeah.

Ryan Long 44:50 ... but not in the long term. In the long term, I just, I exited the game.

Chris Williamson 44:53 Yeah.

Ryan Long 44:54 (laughs)

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Chris Williamson 45:45 So there's a, a law called Goodhart's Law. Parkinson's Law is, work expands to fill the time given for it. It's why you hand your university assignment in the morning that it's supposed to be due in, right?

Ryan Long 45:55 Yeah, that's very true. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:57 It just keeps on, just keeps on expanding. But there's a one that's kind of similar called Goodhart's Law. Goodhart's Law says, when a measure becomes an outcome, it ceases to be a good measure. So for instance, if you were to say, um, "The measure that I want is the most number of email newsletter subscribers that I could get, and that is the only thing I'm optimizing for," that's the outco- a measure, email newsletter subscribers, becomes the outcome that you optimize for, you would say, "Right, I'm gonna post online that I'm gonna give $10,000 to every person that signs up for a newsletter."

Ryan Long 46:25 Yeah, that's a good point.

Chris Williamson 46:26 Then they don't get $10,000. What have you done? Hooray, you've got all of these people to sign up for your newsletter, but that wasn't actually the outcome you wanted, it was just a measure en route to it. The outcome you wanted was, "I want a large list of people who are interested in what I do and want to hear from me and think about me positively," and so on and so forth. And that's the same with talking about the content thing or the views thing or the optimizing for anything thing. It's the same as, um, "I want girls to like me, therefore I'm gonna get as jacked as possible." You get super-duper jacked, but you don't realize what the externality of that is gonna be, which is just tons of- of fucking attention from men. Or if you owned a company-

Ryan Long 47:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:04 (laughs) If you owned a company that, uh, was-

Ryan Long 47:08 I never found j- getting jacked helped at all, one way or another, with women.

Chris Williamson 47:11 With getting men? Oh.

Ryan Long 47:11 I don't... (laughs) Yeah, with getting men it was, did okay, yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:14 Uh, no, I think, uh, you'd be surprised at how little of a difference it makes.

Ryan Long 47:18 I might have been, uh, might have been adverse for me. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:22 (laughs) How jacked have you got?

Ryan Long 47:24 I think if I had a six-pack, I think the, like, the knowledge that, uh... You know, it sounds like a cope, but I mean, you know, obviously it's different types of girls. But like, if in... You know, I've played in, you know, bands my whole life and I've been in entertainment my whole life and been a comedian, touring comedian for 15 years. And I would say that the people that are around that scene, like, I've never seen a correlation between the most jacked guy and the most girls. Like, you know, to- to a point, but I think that there's, like, a level of, like, cool, you know, nihilism that is negated by having a six-pack.

Chris Williamson 47:55 Oh, that's funny. I wonder how special, uh, that is to your particular industries of like, Lothario-

Ryan Long 48:02 It depends on your schtick, yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:03 ... smoking and fucking leather-jacket-wearing, 4:00 AM people.

Ryan Long 48:06 I probably, I probably... Especially depends on your body type too, but I think that, like, the skinny heroine version of my body types look, like, is more appealing than the jacked version-

Chris Williamson 48:16 (laughs) You texted-

Ryan Long 48:17 ... to women.

Chris Williamson 48:17 You texted me something about that the other week.

Ryan Long 48:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:19 I was fucking pissing myself. Um, but that Goodhart's Law thing. So imagine that you run a company and, um, one of the measures, uh, that you want, you tell...... we need to drop the fraud rate in our company as much as possible. So you get customer support and you drill them. This is the most important metric. This is exactly what you're focusing on. Hooray, they managed to drive the fraud rate to essentially zero. Boo, what they actually do is treat every customer like a potential fraudster. That's not good.

Ryan Long 48:46 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:46 That's not actually what you wanted to achieve. So I think when you're looking at stuff like the pooping man on the street that you look at for a little bit longer, the equivalent of that on the internet, what you actually end up realizing is, okay, I can make something that will cause people to look and may even accumulate an audience, but it's not the sort of audience that I want. What are they here for? Are they here for, like, the right reasons? What are their expectations around me? This is one of the things that you should always be scared about if you ever do anything that blows up, even as a musician. Like let's say that you make a song and this song is amazing, but it's like kind of a bit out there compared with what your usual stuff is and what you love to make, and you just experimented and had this crack. And you go, "I've just got-"

Ryan Long 49:27 You're this now.

Chris Williamson 49:28 ... "50%" That's you now.

Ryan Long 49:30 I know.

Chris Williamson 49:30 That's you. And you go, "Oh, fuck, I need to now play in that field. I made a, like right-wing country..." That Oliver Anthony guy, remember that guy?

Ryan Long 49:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:39 Uh, like, guess what? You're now like a political football for the rest of your music career.

Ryan Long 49:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:44 Like everybody cares about you and what you think to do with DC and the rich men north of Richmond and blah, blah. You know, that might have just been... I don't think it was, but that might have just been one... He was like, "I'm just gonna have a crack, I'll write a thing that's about, like rich men that are kind of in the Washington, DC area." And you go, "That's you now. That's your entire identity. So be careful doing that."

Ryan Long 50:03 1000%. I think the hardest part is like when you're trying to explain to other people your version of it 'cause, you know, when you're trying to, like, have employees or whatever, anyone else that's, like, working for you, it's like... 'Cause you're basically describing a, an equation that's like this if this, right? You're saying, like, if these, uh... You probably know the better wording for it, but if these criteria are, are satisfied, then this is the thing we're optimizing for, right?

Chris Williamson 50:31 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 50:31 But it's, it's... I feel like it, that's a very hard thing to, like, uh, get people on board with.

Chris Williamson 50:36 I had this-

Ryan Long 50:37 Like I, I, I mean, a big huge thing that I... Probably the, you know, and you can't have a million of them, but the big thing I always have that it's like, none of this matters if it isn't funny, right? So I'm always like... And it's like, "Well, you said you want this and this and this." And it was like, yeah, n- none of that is... We don't even have any of those conversations, like, until it's funny.

Chris Williamson 50:54 Yep.

Ryan Long 50:54 So it d- n- yeah, so it's, uh, it's like having conversations, like, doing things in the right order maybe is-

Chris Williamson 50:59 Yeah.

Ryan Long 50:59 ... the answer.

Chris Williamson 51:00 Well, having a gate that you have to pass through. So i- if it's-

Ryan Long 51:03 Yeah, they're like, "Gate?"

Chris Williamson 51:04 If this isn't funny, doesn't matter how much money it makes, doesn't matter how much impact it has, doesn't matter-

Ryan Long 51:09 It's irrelevant.

Chris Williamson 51:09 ... how cool it makes me. If it's not funny, it doesn't get through the first... So there's a, like an ordinating principle, kind of similar Jeff Bezos and Musk, uh, supposedly have got one. Uh, Bezos's at Amazon was, "Does this make the customer experience better?" And Musk's was, "Does this get us closer to Mars?" So everything, all of the choices, it doesn't matter how fucking cool it is, it doesn't matter how fast the Tesla is, it doesn't matter how much money it makes on Amazon Prime Day or Black Friday or whatever. Does this make the customer experience better? Does this get, uh, get us closer to Mars? And if it doesn't get through that, is this funny? If it's not funny, doesn't matter. I, I-

Ryan Long 51:43 Yeah, that's at the base level of like, yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:45 But it makes everything easier.

Ryan Long 51:46 And I think that that's why, you know, on stage it's easy 'cause you're like, well obviously if it's not getting laughs, like, uh-

Chris Williamson 51:52 Kill it.

Ryan Long 51:53 Well, then maybe not kill it. Uh, get it to the point where it's getting laughs, but you go, none of... N- whatev- no matter how good I think this is, doesn't matter until that's solved.

Chris Williamson 52:02 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 52:02 You know?

Chris Williamson 52:03 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 52:03 So that makes it easier.

Chris Williamson 52:04 If you think it's impactful, if you think that it's, it's like useful, if you think that it's cool for your career, if you think it's gonna make headlines. If it's not funny, it doesn't get.

Ryan Long 52:11 I mean, it's like one of those things where, you know, it's like working at a magazine and you're kind of, uh, like, you, "We have this amazing scoop," but it's about the boss's wife. It's like, well, it doesn't matter. Like they're not gonna say yes. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:20 Yeah.

Ryan Long 52:21 You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 52:21 Yeah, yeah. Good point.

Ryan Long 52:22 You go, "No, you don't understand how great this is." It was like, it doesn't matter.

Chris Williamson 52:25 Yeah. Uh-

Ryan Long 52:25 But I, it's, it is hard to...

Chris Williamson 52:27 I had this conversation with a guy called Stuart

Chris Williamson 52:29 Russell, who wrote this book, Human Compatible. So the worldwide textbook on AI, uh, may still be the case, but it certainly was for a couple of decades, was written by this guy Stuart Russell. Anyway, wrote this book, and in it, he taught me this really interesting thing about, uh, how the algorithm works. So the algorithm works in two ways. First way is that it finds content that you are likely to click on by getting better at predicting what you're gonna click on, right? That's kind of the way that everybody understands that the algorithm works. But there's a second way that it works as well, which is it moves your preferences, it nudges your preferences to make you easier to predict. So it's a bi-directional relationship.

Ryan Long 53:09 Oh, that's sinister. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:12 (laughs) It's fucking really sinister. Yeah, that's a great word. Um, and yeah, so one, one of the reasons that we talk... Why is the internet so-

Ryan Long 53:20 People hate unpredictability.

Chris Williamson 53:22 C- but the, the internet's so pre- like polarized and, you know, w- these two camps don't talk to each other and all the rest of it. And you go, okay, like maybe that's because of tribalism. Maybe it's because you're stating your, in... your opinions to everybody all the time. Maybe it's because we don't have time to have nuanced opinions and, uh, there's these sort of shows of loyalty to your own side and threat displays to the other. Or maybe it's the algorithm, meaning that if I know you're far right, you are always gonna hate-click or love-click on these two buckets of things. And if you're far left, you're gonna do the opposite. Uh, that maybe it's, maybe everybody is just being cucked by the algo and we've all been turned into these sort of easily predictable, uh, like preference engines.

Ryan Long 54:02 Yeah, uh, uh, I, I always think of things a little bit like, you know, s- stocks is, or maybe just everything is stocks, but it's, uh, the only one that, uh, is, you know, there's a centralized body which describes everything, but it, it really does though. The more they do it, the more there is that arbitrage opportunity where they're... 'Cause the tr- you know, you know, like in, you know, attraction or whatever, it's like, you know, there's the kind of the oldest men/women thing, but...... women aren't attracted to a man who they can predict everything about them, you know? And so it's like they... People think they want that, but then they kind of stop wanting it. So at a time when everything kind of becomes predictable, when you see something that wasn't, you know, in a lot of ways it's so much more attractive. But then, yeah, so you are kind of like, how do you rise above the algorithms to be that?

Chris Williamson 54:53 There's a tension between, uh, sort of novelty or being exotic and being reliable and consistent. Because people like that. I think this is one of the reasons, again, I listened to tons of Shapiro during, uh, 2020, during COVID. If- if there's a global pandemic going on, you need a daily show. I chose him. I know you can... I can just read the title. I've got a pretty good idea of what his take is gonna be. It's like putting on an old leather-

Ryan Long 55:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:16 ... pair of shoes. You know, there's a cadence.

Ryan Long 55:18 I watch the cop shows like NCIS and stuff like that.

Chris Williamson 55:20 You know it's the fucking brother, it's the uncle, it's the guy that was like sort of snooping around the corner at the start-

Ryan Long 55:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:26 ... and asking too many questions. You know what it's gonna be. But you, you're almost there for that. It's comfortable log fire. You've got your fucking slippers on, like I- I'm familiar with this. And I think that the tension that people have between this desire for reliability and consistency and predictability, but avoiding being boring, and also the sort of spice of novelty and, and, and newness that everybody wants. Finding that is exactly what it is. But I mean, how many times have you been on the algo and it's just thrown you something you've never seen before and you're like, "Oh, that's fucking good." So I, (laughs) I went down a rabbit hole of-

Ryan Long 56:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:02 ... Star Wars character.

Ryan Long 56:03 The meme... If you're in the meme culture, there's a lot of... You know, it'll get you.

Chris Williamson 56:07 Dude, I went in... I went down this huge rabbit hole of Star Wars character battle power, like analysis. People that had read all of the lore and they know who the most powerful Sith is of all time.

Ryan Long 56:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:21 And they work out what would have happened if Luke Skywalker at peak power had actually fought, uh, this guy and all the rest of it.

Ryan Long 56:26 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 56:26 And then that led me into this one about Marvel comics and all of the Marvel comics. And this is the biggest, most powerful guy, and it's that same fucking black man AI voice that everybody uses.

Ryan Long 56:35 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:36 And I was like this... And I was en- enthralled. But that was one video I'd never seen before. So that was the, you know, bit of novelty that just gets tossed at you and you're like, "Oh, wow." Like, "This is fucking sweet." And then other times you go, "Okay, if- if I had that all the time, it'd be too chaotic." It's like cat video, breastfeeding video, cow video, fucking Marvel video. Too much.

Ryan Long 56:55 It's got... It... There has to be... You know what, uh, this should be the opportunity for the company that you basically are like algorithm curators, 'cause you know, especially like what you, what you do, where you go... You know, there's people that are like, "Yeah, I know that, uh, this is worse for me, so I'm choosing to sort of..." You know, it's obviously you don't want to just be like using your willpower every second, right? So you, you, uh, you're able to say, "Okay, this is..." Someone... They take over your account for a week, and then they give it back to you where you're like, "This is like the success algorithm you're about to get." I was saying, I was saying that, uh, it's... I don't get... You know, I never get messed up by politics shit. Like, it never- never really like gets to me.

Chris Williamson 57:37 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 57:37 Uh, but the alpha male shit sometimes, where it's like, "If you sleep, you're gay," and I'll be like, "What the..."

Chris Williamson 57:43 (laughs)

Ryan Long 57:43 You know, it's like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:44 (laughs) Dude, it's so-

Ryan Long 57:47 I will leg- (laughs) Just be like on a plane and, you know, a guy's just like, you know, "Y'all sleeping." Uh, uh, you know, these... They're sleeping while I'm working: content. And I'm just like, "Fucking, I'm a loser." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:01 (laughs)

Ryan Long 58:01 He's just yelling at me. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:02 But the-

Ryan Long 58:02 Damn it, can I tell you one thing?

Chris Williamson 58:04 Yes.

Ryan Long 58:04 My buddy, uh, I know a guy that, um, he filmed with Jordan Peterson. I know you know Jordan. And he goes... He, he, he was like the camera guy and it was, uh... And he was like doing like a rant and he said he like honestly went home stressed out 'cause it was just... (laughs) He was holding the camera just right here, right, while Jordan Peterson... "And another thing, bucko."

Chris Williamson 58:24 (laughs)

Ryan Long 58:26 He goes, he goes, "I went to work, I just got yelled at by Jordan Peterson for three hours."

Chris Williamson 58:30 (laughs)

Ryan Long 58:31 He said, he was like, he had to shake it off, like... (laughs) Just the camera guy. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 58:41 (laughs) Oh my god, yeah.

Ryan Long 58:42 It's funny.

Chris Williamson 58:42 Uh, I- I have, I have no idea how people that have to put up with that sort of stuff. There was a dude that worked for us, Bennett, my DP. Uh, the camera op didn't show for the J- uh, Jocko Willink episode that we did a few years ago. And, uh, he was... I mean, Jocko's got... He's a man with a large head, um, and this shot was zoomed like just that.

Ryan Long 59:04 Sure.

Chris Williamson 59:04 So it was just his eyes and his nose.

Ryan Long 59:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:06 And, uh, this guy, for three hours, Bennett had just been looking down the lens of the camera like this, like tracking his head as he'd moved around. And, uh, he was like, "Dude, I just like stared at a guy that's killed people's eyes."

Ryan Long 59:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:20 For three and a half hours.

Ryan Long 59:20 "Yeah, he's just getting in my soul."

Chris Williamson 59:22 Yeah. Yeah. "I know he wasn't looking at me, but it kind of felt like it."

Ryan Long 59:25 Yeah, it feels like it.

Chris Williamson 59:26 Go... Uh, okay,

Chris Williamson 59:27 we gotta talk a bit of politics. Like what, what the fuck is the assessment you've got? This isn't your first time in the US during an election. Like, is this more crazy than it is typically? It's my first time here.

Ryan Long 59:39 Um... Oh, this is your first time being here for it?

Chris Williamson 59:42 Yeah.

Ryan Long 59:43 Feels less crazy to me.

Chris Williamson 59:44 Really?

Ryan Long 59:45 Does it feel more crazy to you?

Chris Williamson 59:46 Well, I haven't been here before.

Ryan Long 59:47 But you've been... I mean, everyone's in- inundated by American politics.

Chris Williamson 59:50 Paid- paid attention. I don't know, man. I mean, from two assassination attempts to a replaced candidate to like one of them going on Call Her Daddy. Like, I mean, it's...

Ryan Long 1:00:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:01 It's all happening.

Ryan Long 1:00:02 Have you seen Danny's the AI king right now? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:04 Bro. So for people that don't know, I had to text Danny about this. Uh, I also sent it to the guy that did, um, Alex's $125 million SiriusXM deal. And I was like, "Bro, have you seen this?" (laughs)

Ryan Long 1:00:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:18 Um, Danny did a Kamala and Alex AI talk over...

Ryan Long 1:00:25 He AI'd people in the- Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:26 ... and makes like a script that the AI must read in their voice. And he was talking about, "Kamala, everybody knows that you're the throat GOAT. So can we talk-" (laughs)

Ryan Long 1:00:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00:35 ... unreal.

Ryan Long 1:00:36 I mean, you're, if you're, if you're 70 years old and you just watch a video and you're supposed to know it's AI, like you're, you're cooked, man. You know, you're done.

Chris Williamson 1:00:43 Yep.

Ryan Long 1:00:44 But, yeah, in terms of, uh, uh, to me, it feels like, uh, like, I mean, the last four elect- Okay, I remember I was in... I guess we'll see who, who wins and how it shakes down. I remember being in Toronto, uh, when Trump won the first time, and I was at a comedy club and girls were crying. Like, girls were like bawling their eyes out. And I remember I went on stage.

Chris Williamson 1:01:04 Canadian girls?

Ryan Long 1:01:05 Yeah. We don't even... Yeah. I mean, obviously, you know, American politics is everywhere. So you are... I- i- Yes, it's funny that it is in Canada, but I guess it doesn't feel like that. They feel like... You know, I feel... And I'm sure they were correct that, like, a Trumpian president is gonna affect the next four years of the life or whatever. But yeah, that's how much... You know, and I know people in New York that were like, "Yeah, I cried," and they kind of feel like a little embarrassed about it now. But I remember I went on stage and I was like, "It's 2016," and I was like, "There's gonna be some fucking changes around here."

Chris Williamson 1:01:31 (laughs)

Ryan Long 1:01:31 You know? ............................ like the first thing to happen. (laughs) But it was like, yeah, it was crazy. People were crying, right? But to me, it doesn't feel like it's... It feels to some degree like a lot of people are, in some ways, embarrassed about how much they lost their mind.

Chris Williamson 1:01:49 Mm.

Ryan Long 1:01:50 You know, and they lost their mi- People lost their mind so many times where now it feels, you know, back to probably a little closer to how I grew up, where, you know, people are like, "Yeah." You know, there's podcasts with people that have different political views. The... It seems to me like both candidates are sort of... You know, Trump's going on being like, "No, I'm not crazy on abortion." And then Kamala's going on being like, "I swear I'm not, like, this fucking crazy woke person." Like, they're almost, you know, they're clearly sort of-

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 Tempering.

Ryan Long 1:02:15 ... whether they're gonna do it or not, but they're clearly, like, that's who they're trying to sort of, you know, move into. Again, we'll see what happens afterwards. But I was kinda thinking that so many of arguments right now is just, you know, abortion would be an ex- example, but you can probably, you know, pick anything. Uh, most arguments in politics are just who has the more egregious edge case. You know what I mean?

Chris Williamson 1:02:40 Mm.

Ryan Long 1:02:40 So it's like, i- i- and most of the time, 90%, 99.9% of the time, you're not talking about edge cases, but it's really being like, "Here's this edge case of what happens if you get, if you get your way." And then this guy goes, "Well, here's an edge case of what happens the other way."

Chris Williamson 1:02:53 Yeah, okay. One person's, like, immigrant that's killed an entire family of five is another person's third trimester dead baby that's actually f- been five hours born or some shit.

Ryan Long 1:03:03 And in reality, none of it, you know, most of it n- almost, almost never any of it happens, right?

Chris Williamson 1:03:09 Yeah.

Ryan Long 1:03:09 And I'm sure, whatever, people are probably argu- arguing like, "Well, this one happens a lot," and maybe there are edge cases of what I'm saying.

Chris Williamson 1:03:16 Well, if it's, if it's a true edge case, then it doesn't happen a lot. That's what the definition of an edge case.

Ryan Long 1:03:20 Def- by definitions.

Chris Williamson 1:03:21 Yes.

Ryan Long 1:03:21 There you go.

Chris Williamson 1:03:21 Yes.

Ryan Long 1:03:22 Um, but yeah, so to me, it was like s- every argument I watch right now, it feels like it's like how can you prepare the most egregious edge case?

Chris Williamson 1:03:30 Just nitpicking from left to right.

Ryan Long 1:03:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:32 Yeah. What-

Ryan Long 1:03:33 And I think why it's gone a little more politically, like, if you watch, if you watch, like, the debates with the, the VP debates, right? And I kind of watch this stuff 'cause we talk about it a bit.

Chris Williamson 1:03:41 Mm-hmm.

Ryan Long 1:03:41 But like, to me, that was your classic vintage... You know, I was gonna say, like, w- you know, the politics we're used to now is just like, j- these guys are going on being like, "He has a pretty good idea. I actually agree with him on that one. It's a pretty good idea." And I'm like, "Call him fat. What are you..."

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 (laughs)

Ryan Long 1:03:57 "What is... Like, call him a rapist. What are we wa-" I came in for, like... That's what me and Danny were saying, that you just have a flashback where you go, "Wait, am I just watching a VP debate? What the hell?" Like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:08 (laughs) Ah, yes.

Ryan Long 1:04:09 Like, I came here... Oh, right, like...

Chris Williamson 1:04:10 "I came here, I came here for a Royal Rumble."

Ryan Long 1:04:12 Yeah, I thought I was, I thought I was watching politics, not politics.

Chris Williamson 1:04:15 (laughs) Uh.

Ryan Long 1:04:16 We were saying the same thing about conspiracy theories, where sometimes you, you get in too deep into conspiracies series, like, oh, I was watching all the P. Diddy stuff and watching all this stuff, and you're like, "It's an Epstein sex trafficking ring." And then eventually, you're just like, "So J.Lo is leaving Ben Affleck, and (laughs) she's not happy."

Chris Williamson 1:04:31 (laughs)

Ryan Long 1:04:31 And you go, "RFK's wife was seen without her wedding ring," and (laughs) before you know it, you're just gossiping. (laughs) You, y- and then you, and then he's like, "What are you talking about RFK's wife's even..." I'm doing conspiracies right now.

Chris Williamson 1:04:44 Right, it's been so watered down that everything is now a part of that.

Ryan Long 1:04:47 You get too deep into like those kind of conspiracies, you're just doing... But, yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:50 How mu- How much do you think, uh,

Chris Williamson 1:04:52 the Kamala going on podcasts and doing the 60 Minutes and all the rest of it is just a response to the fact that Trump is everywhere at the moment? Do you think that's them playing defense, just sort of trying to get her out there 'cause it's too obvious? If she doesn't go on all of this long, any long form stuff at all-

Ryan Long 1:05:07 Yes. Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:05:07 ... there's this big sort of open loop of, "Uh..."

Ryan Long 1:05:09 I think it was too obvious, and they were like, "Well, let's crank out a few, you know, softballs." Like Stern, you know Stern's gonna be, you know, gonna be like, "What's it like being so great?" You know? So I think that that's what they're doing. They're like, "Yeah, let's crank out a few." And then I think that people just don't like her. So it seems to be that it's kinda changing the things. I'm sure it's not changing a lot, but, I mean, the betting markets are not feeling her interviews.

Chris Williamson 1:05:33 Dude. Do you follow Polymarket? Looks like that.

Ryan Long 1:05:35 Yeah, I love following Polymarket. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:36 All right. So, uh, everyone, I c- I had, uh, Mike Sollano from Pirate Wires on the show a