Designing The World's Biggest Brands | Bruce Duckworth | Modern Wisdom Podcast 167

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   ... did you come…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      ... did you come up with the Amazon box smile design?

   2. BDBruce Duckworth0:04

      Yes.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      How many people do you think have seen that?

   4. BDBruce Duckworth0:07

      "How many people?" is, is an interesting question. I think that somebody had worked it out that just the logo printed on packaging, had been printed on packaging about 100 billion times.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:18

      (laughs)

   6. BDBruce Duckworth0:18

      Um, and I've just never... You know, that's just extraordinary, isn't it?

   7. CWChris Williamson0:21

      Jeff Bezos said, "Anyone who doesn't like this logo doesn't like puppies."

   8. BDBruce Duckworth0:25

      That, that's exactly what he said. I mean, it was a response by somebody-

   9. CWChris Williamson0:28

      (laughs) Bruce, so good to speak to you. How are you?

   10. BDBruce Duckworth0:36

       I mean, I'm very well. I'm very well. The, the, the sun is shining in West Dorset, so I'm very happy. Very happy right now.

   11. CWChris Williamson0:41

       I know, uh, for the people that are only listening, you're gonna have to imagine, but I've got some color in me somehow today. I've spent couple of hours in the garden reading and, and prepping for this podcast, and somehow managed to get some color in me. Uh, I know it might not come across on the... It'll be Dean, it'll be video guy Dean filtering it out, that's the only reason that you can't see it.

   12. BDBruce Duckworth0:59

       Right.

   13. CWChris Williamson0:59

       Um, first, first things first, did you come up with the Amazon box smile design?

   14. BDBruce Duckworth1:07

       Yes. So that-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:09

       How many, how many people do you think have seen that? E- everyone that's listening, think about the last Amazon parcel you got, it was probably this morning. The fact that underneath Amazon, there's a little smiley face, but it didn't-

   16. BDBruce Duckworth1:20

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:20

       ... used to be like that apparently. I went on your website, didn't used to be like that, used to be the other way-

   18. BDBruce Duckworth1:25

       Yes.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:25

       ... like a frow- like a frowny face. That told us-

   20. BDBruce Duckworth1:27

       That's right.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:28

       T- tell us about that.

   22. BDBruce Duckworth1:29

       Yeah, so that's, um... "How many people?" is, is an interesting, um, question. I think that somebody had worked it out that just the logo printed on packaging, had been printed on packaging about 100 billion times.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:43

       (laughs)

   24. BDBruce Duckworth1:43

       Um, and I've just never... You know, that's just extraordinary, isn't it? That's just packaging. That's let alone, not on side of airplanes or lorries, or-

   25. CWChris Williamson1:50

       Gift cards.

   26. BDBruce Duckworth1:50

       ... on websites which-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:51

       Yeah.

   28. BDBruce Duckworth1:51

       ... of course, and gift cards, all the rest of it. So that's just an extraordinary thing, isn't it? When you, when you design something and you're responsible for drawing it, and then it's repeated so many hundreds of billions of times, it's just unbelievable, isn't it?

   29. CWChris Williamson2:02

       (laughs)

   30. BDBruce Duckworth2:03

       I suppose we didn't think it was ever gonna be as big as that, obviously, you know. I mean, who could have imagined? I- I'm sure even Jeff Bezos didn't realize it was quite as big as he's got now. Um, it was... I think it was about 20 years ago, um, Amazon were, um, they, th- they were the, the biggest bookseller, uh, online bookseller, if you remember, and that's all they did, just bookselling. And, um, and they... It was, uh, the... We, we had, uh, an office in San Francisco and, um, we were working on a lot of .com boom and the subsequent bust, um, kind of companies around the kind of '98 type, um, time. And, um, and, and Amazon, uh, wanted to change their business model from being just a- an online bookseller to sell everything on the internet. And so, um, the meeting, uh, with Jeff Bezos was we need to, um... The brief from him was, "We need to tell everybody, um, that we're now selling everything on the internet, uh, not just books. And we also need to tell everybody that we are the most consumer-friendly. We want to be the most consumer-friendly, um, company on the internet." Because at the time, although that seems like everybody does that now, at the time, that was quite a big deal. Um, and so those are the two things we had to communicate. And, uh, you know, logo design is about communication. And so you have to try and find a unique thing that is to do with their name, um, and what they're trying to communicate. So, um, Amazon, we were lucky or we looked hard, I guess, um, there's an A and a Z in Amazon, if you think of the name. And so it's, um... So an arrow that went from A to Z means everything, right? So we thought if we could, um, link the A to the Z, uh, with a smile, which was a sort of, you know, looks a bit like an arrow, but is also a smile, it goes from A to Z and it's sort of consumer-friendly. Um, which is a sort of, you know, that's, uh, you know, that's the answer, right, to the, to the brief. ... as it turned out, the logo before had a sort of an underline, which was a sort of like an, like a sort of frown smile, like an upside-down smile. So actually just by inverting that and adding the arrowhead to the end, we managed to move it, sort of manipulate it from being one look of a logo, um, into the new logo with meaning. And that, and I think that sort of, uh, has, has done us well. I mean, wherever I go in the world, (laughs) there is a piece of my work on someone's desk somewhere.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) Well- …

   1. CWChris Williamson15:00

      yeah, yeah. In, in my mind, I sometimes feel like I... You know, I can remember so many visual things, um, and I can't remember the last thing I read even if I read it two minutes ago.

   2. BDBruce Duckworth15:11

      (laughs) Well-

   3. CWChris Williamson15:12

      But I can remember things I've seen.

   4. BDBruce Duckworth15:14

      When you have an, an-

   5. CWChris Williamson15:16

      That's my definition of retention in my mind.

   6. BDBruce Duckworth15:17

      Yeah, yeah. When you guys are working at the... It's Premier League design level, right? Biggest companies in the world, most important projects in the world. You need someone who, um, in the nicest way possible has a, a freakish side to one particular domain of their competence, right? You need someone who literally can only see in pictures. Yeah. Can s-... Can take the word. And you've touched on that there. I, I want to get into a couple of things. One of them being entrepreneurs and how, how, um, we, me as a good example, can communicate with other versions of you, uh, more effectively. And they... You've touched on it there about that. "I want it just a little bit more sort of classy," or, "Can we have it a bit more kind of, you know, like edgy?" Yes. And what people do, what I'm trying to say is, I'm using a word, which is the closest proxy for an impression of something I want to see. And I just... Yes. That's so inefficient. Like, it's so many steps removed, you know. Yeah. But the fact... You guys being able to take that and then have the skills to deploy it. Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson16:27

      That's where-

   8. BDBruce Duckworth16:28

      I mean, I think the skill is, um, you know, particularly when you g- come to do things like a logo, for example. I mean, Amazon is just... It's only prints in one color. You can't... I mean, there's not... No- nothing you can do really with color particularly. Um, it's only got, you know, just a few letters. And how do you communicate all these things? Um, and so we spend a lot of time, um, uh, when we've got a design figuring out the st- the reason why that design is the correct design for the client. And so we would use a lot of the words they've used, the edgy, the classy, all those kind of words, um, and, and, and explain how that manifests itself as a visual. So if it's classy, what does classy mean visually? I mean, I know what it means... You know, in your head, is it the same as it is in my head? And so you could... What... Y- y- by going through every single kind of personality trait that they're trying to, um, communicate, you can, you can sort of narrow it all down graphically, um, to something that makes sense at the end. And you can s-... You can sort of see in a, in a typical presentation, in a good presentation-

   9. CWChris Williamson17:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BDBruce Duckworth17:31

       ... you can see clients kind of nodding along and nodding along, and you go, "So this is the answer," and they nod. (laughs) And then you go-

   11. CWChris Williamson17:37

       Yes. Did it...

   12. BDBruce Duckworth17:37

       ... "Thanks very much. That was great."

   13. CWChris Williamson17:38

       That's fantastic.

   14. BDBruce Duckworth17:38

       (laughs) "How did you do that?" So you often only show people, clients, um, uh, you know, probably a maximum of three solutions. Um-

   15. CWChris Williamson17:47

       Why?

   16. BDBruce Duckworth17:48

       You know, because, um, actually it's much easier... Like it's much, much easier if I were to give my team designing a logo. Um, you know, they go off and, and they come back and show me the logos, um, that they've worked on for a few days, and there's maybe 50 logos there. Now I could take that to a client and I could say, "We've done 50 logos for you. Which one do you like?" But then actually, they're then put in a position where they're ha- they're becoming me, a creative director, because my job is to take but the best and only show the very best to the client, um, and hone them until they're perfect. Um, and, uh, and I think it's a kind of lazy...... to show more than three. In fact, the hardest thing would be to show them one solution, um, because then it would have to be absolutely spot on. It tends to be that you sh- have to show clients more than one because, um, th- the way they describe what they want has slight different nuances. So you have to just tease out from them which one they really mean.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:50

       This is a bit more classy. This is a bit more edgy.

   18. BDBruce Duckworth18:53

       (laughs) .

   19. CWChris Williamson18:53

       This is a bit more whatever it might be.

   20. BDBruce Duckworth18:55

       Yes, yes. (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson18:55

       Yeah, I- I get it.

   22. BDBruce Duckworth18:56

       But- but- but the principle and, uh, what you're trying to communicate through the symbolism, um, is- is exactly the same in that sense.

   23. CWChris Williamson19:02

       Yeah, the para- that paradox of choice is a- is a real thing. You know?

   24. BDBruce Duckworth19:05

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson19:05

       When you have- you have the entire world of shapes and colors at your disposal to- to make something from, it's going to be challenging. So, um, you design, you said, prod- like packaging, um, the way that products look and stuff.

   26. BDBruce Duckworth19:20

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson19:20

       I mean, if you want to put wings on a McNuggets box, can you do it? Like, can you just say, "Oh, we really think that the wings would look good."

   28. BDBruce Duckworth19:27

       Well-

   29. CWChris Williamson19:27

       You mentioned about something having movement in it.

   30. BDBruce Duckworth19:30

       Yeah. (laughs) . Yeah, sure you can. I mean, it's, um, a- it- it's all possible, right? The, uh, y- you have to. I think consumers are very, um, you know, uh, they- they- they think long and hard these days, um, about, uh, recyclability and sustainability. And if the wings you put on a McNuggets box are completely frivolous and superfluous, (laughs) -
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   Yep. …

   1. CWChris Williamson30:00

      this integrated, cohesive, um, and unified movement, this, um, you know, unified front, like a, like a war, um, troops moving in battle type thing, they all go at the-

   2. BDBruce Duckworth30:14

      Yep.

   3. CWChris Williamson30:14

      ... at the right time, at the right pace? I think (clears throat) -

   4. BDBruce Duckworth30:16

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson30:17

      ... definitely seeing... And you are right. Like, I, I, I notice a change in the way that brands communicated pre-iPhone and post-iPhone, and it definitely does feel like that was a, an inflection point. There might be some people listening and thinking, "Well, this is, this is interesting from a consumer perspective. I don't really know how communicating with someone like yourself, a creative director or a des- graphic designer or whatever, is that interesting or that, that important for me, I suppose, in my, in my life." But w-... I challenge anyone to not have a problem with a graphic designer at some point in their life. Like, everybody, you've, you've got your mum's 50th coming up and you've got to make a Facebook cover photo, a b- banner for Facebook. Or your, your brother's started a dog grooming service, so you post, you post recommendations on, o- online saying, "Does anyone know any good local graphic designers?" And you get a million different things that come back. So I want to, um-

   6. BDBruce Duckworth31:13

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson31:13

      ... I want to ask how, as a client, and also as a graphic designer, I know that our designer, Johnny, will be listening. Uh, shout out, Johnny, you're awesome. Um, and-

   8. BDBruce Duckworth31:23

      (laughs) .

   9. CWChris Williamson31:24

      ... um, a bunch of other graphic designers, creatives, and stuff like that. How can you ensure from both the graphic designer's perspective, and from the client's perspective, that the brief and the communication between the two is as smooth as possible, there's no superfluous stuff in there, it's as efficient but as thorough as it needs to be? Have you got some, some strategies of how you do that?

   10. BDBruce Duckworth31:46

       You, you mean between the client and the graphic designer?

   11. CWChris Williamson31:49

       Correct, yeah.

   12. BDBruce Duckworth31:50

       Yeah, yeah. Well, um, well, how does it become s- yeah, I mean, like, you know ... I think back in the, in the original kind of graphic designers who were originally ... okay, like, gra- graphic designing used to be called commercial artist, right? You know, um, that's what it was called before we were all called graphic designers. Um, and, and that kind of tells you a little bit about ... actually it's more descriptive what we do. You know, it is a sort of art, but it's, uh, for, for other people, right? It's the commercial part. We do it for money and we do it for other people. Um, and y- y- uh, there were always stories of how these kind of iconic, um, you know, spearheading graphic designers would stand on the windowsill of a 10-story building saying, "Buy my idea because it's so brilliant, and I'll throw myself off if you don't buy it. It's that good." We don't do that anymore. You know, we don't need to do that anymore, right? You know, um, and so I think the, uh, the, the communication is just it has to be, um ... see, what we're always looking, what as a graphic designer you're always looking for is that, you know, as, as I say, we think in pictures. So whatever you say to me that I need to translate into something that becomes, um, a piece of graphic design, I have to be able to put that into pictures, right? So you could, you could give me some words and say, "Bruce, I need it to be exactly like this," and you give me all these sort of quality, you know, high-end, um, uh, b- whatever it is. Um, but if I can't actually make it into a picture, you know, if I can't draw it, if I can't ... if it, if it just, some things you just can't draw because it's a feeling and it's an emotion, you just can't do it. Um, and so I think the communication has to be like the designer has to speak to the client and explain that kind of thing to them, so that whatever they say, they could give them a 200-page marketing report and say, "Now I need a logo. Can you do it from that?" And you say, "Well, there's no way I can condense all of that into a logo. You've only got one color and four letters," or whatever it is.

   13. CWChris Williamson33:49

       (laughs) .

   14. BDBruce Duckworth33:49

       Um, there's no way that can happen. Um, so I need to, um, I, I need to tease out that conversation between the client and the, and the designer has to be teasing out of the really, really important bits of information. What do you really want to say? You know, what do you really want to communicate? Um, and then when you've all agreed that that's the right thing, then go away and work at it, and then come back with solutions that really do answer those four or five words, whatever it is, um, that has to ... and so there's no room for, um, getting it wrong.

   15. CWChris Williamson34:22

       Should you always do your first briefing in person?

   16. BDBruce Duckworth34:25

       Oh, always, yeah. Because you, because how do you know, um, Jeff Bezos has got a guffawing laugh if you've never met him? Why do you know that that smile is right for him? You know, I mean, you know, that's not the reason we did it, but it nevertheless is part of the personality of the company. Um, so absolutely. You know, there's a a- all ... when you have a new designer, um, for example, a beer, like a brand of beer, you know, and you design a new beer, where if you go to the brewery, there's always, uh, you'll see things in the br- uh, w- despite what the client will t- talk to you about, you know, you'll, you'll also be observing all these different things, the way they brewed the beer, the way the hops come in, the way, you know, the shape of the whatever it is, the, the, the stills or the f-

   17. CWChris Williamson35:07

       The type of people that are brewing there, or the pigeons that rest on the things outside-

   18. BDBruce Duckworth35:12

       Exactly, and there's always, um-

   19. CWChris Williamson35:14

       ... and all that. Yeah.

   20. BDBruce Duckworth35:14

       ... and there'll be a weathervane on top of the brewery, and you'll go, "Oh, that's interesting." You know? Or the brewery gates will have a bit of, uh, curly metal that'll inspire you. So yeah, you have to really immerse yourself in it and see them-

   21. CWChris Williamson35:26

       I love that. Uh, I think that's very, a very, um, sort of holistic, artistic, all-encompassing view. I think that's a really cool way to do it. And I, I guess as well the implication is as a client if you have an agenda and if you're desperate for your designer to not come up with something, you're gonna have to strap blinkers to the sides of their eyes-

   22. BDBruce Duckworth35:45

       (laughs) .

   23. CWChris Williamson35:46

       ... so that they walk through the brewery or w- what are your particular premises and don't ... no, don't look at the pigeon over there. That weathervane is not for you-

   24. BDBruce Duckworth35:52

       (laughs) .

   25. CWChris Williamson35:52

       ... and this isn't a thing and blah, blah, blah. Don't look at the gates.

   26. BDBruce Duckworth35:56

       Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Um, I, I think that there's, uh, you know, some clients will definitely make a mistake of saying, "This is what I want. Now can you go away and do it?" And really what you're d- trying to say is, "This is what I need to communicate. How best would you bring it to life?"

   27. CWChris Williamson36:10

       I like that. I like that a lot. So one of the things that we touched on before we started, which I think is a really fascinating topic, is how creatives can commercialize their ability. Now, I know, uh, one of the guys that works for us at the moment, Ben, who will also be listening, fine art student in his final year of his master's at Newcastle University, just did an amazing display which unfortunately he never actually got to do because, uh, coronavirus kind of killed that. But unbelievable, like phenomenal stuff that he did. Um, how can he as a fine art student, someone who's good at drawing, someone who's got an interest in graphic design, or anyone else that's listening who has a passion like you had-... how do they go from just being considered to be the guy that gets watercolor, or the- the girl that gets watercolors out in a conservatory three times a year when she's bored, to someone that can actually, you know, make a living out of it? How do you-

   28. BDBruce Duckworth37:04

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson37:04

       ... how do you make that jump?

   30. BDBruce Duckworth37:06

       Well, I think, you know, in- in terms of graphic design, and- and I can't, I- I don't really know how you do it with fine art. Um, I mean, obviously there are, you know, there are some amazingly successful and rich and, you know, fantastic artists that, fine artists. But in graphic design world, you know, what we do is, is we do work for, someone's got a problem, a commercial, usually a commercial problem, um, or an opportunity that they need a graphic designer to help them with i- in order to make them more successful. And so what we do is provide part of the solution that makes them more successful. So we do have a value. What we produce actually has a value, you know. Um, you know, that Amazon, I- I wish I'd, just thinking about it now, I wish we had charged for the amount of times it had been used.
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Yeah. (laughs) …

   1. CWChris Williamson45:00

      one for you. Studenty. "Looks good, but could be a bit more studenty." What do you mean? Like, I, I, I see myself writing these briefs and going, "I hate me." Like, I would-

   2. BDBruce Duckworth45:11

      Yeah. (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson45:11

      If I was Johnny, my designer, I would hate me. But somehow he's just got the patience of an absolute saint, which I'm presuming a lot of graphic designers must have to develop.

   4. BDBruce Duckworth45:21

      Yeah, I think so. I think so.

   5. CWChris Williamson45:22

      Um-

   6. BDBruce Duckworth45:23

      I sort of... And, and also a, um, a, an un- an un- unwavering optimism-

   7. CWChris Williamson45:27

      (laughs)

   8. BDBruce Duckworth45:27

      ... that there could be something great here. (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson45:29

      Yeah. So this is the 20th email where the client sent me just pure shit.

   10. BDBruce Duckworth45:34

       (laughs)

   11. CWChris Williamson45:34

       But this time it might be good.

   12. BDBruce Duckworth45:37

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson45:37

       So are there any, are there any terms that you would, if you were, um, president of global graphic design, are there any words that would be outlawed or would be banned?

   14. BDBruce Duckworth45:51

       Uh, brainstorm.

   15. CWChris Williamson45:53

       (laughs)

   16. BDBruce Duckworth45:54

       Let's do a brainstorm. And the reason, it's like, you know, you do a workshop to think of ideas and, and nothing ever come, good comes out of them. Nothing ever. Like, as soon as I hear that word, you're gonna run a brainstorm, we're gonna have a brainstorm with a client, everyone's gonna get involved, nothing good comes out of them. You know? (laughs) It really doesn't. And so that is a word that I would just... Well, I'd just like to, from creative point of view, thinking of ideas, you know, you need to have thought of an idea and then go for a walk around the park or travel on the bus. And then when you finish that, come back and wake up in the morning and go, "Is it still a good idea now?" Probably not. You know, we now need to think of another one. Like, they don't happen with 25 people in a room all collaborating and throwing ideas at... They just never happen. Everyone comes away from them thinking, "That was great. We all had such a great creative time," but we produced nothing from them.

   17. CWChris Williamson46:48

       No.

   18. BDBruce Duckworth46:48

       I think they're completely overrated.

   19. CWChris Williamson46:51

       You have a proxy for creativity, don't you? Which is actually that the creativity is being masked under volume and-

   20. BDBruce Duckworth46:59

       Yes.

   21. CWChris Williamson47:00

       ... just kind of, uh, velocity of, of, of it's a this and it's a this and it's a this. It's like put-

   22. BDBruce Duckworth47:05

       Yes.

   23. CWChris Williamson47:05

       ... 25 people in a room talking about anything and they'll say a lot of words.

   24. BDBruce Duckworth47:09

       Yeah, yeah. And nothing, I don't think I've ever seen anything good come out. I mean, I've seen, you know, good connections with people come out of them, but not actually any good ideas. But, but actually going back to that word studenty, I sometimes think studenty, and people say that, you know, "That idea is a bit studenty." Um, and what they mean is it's a bit naive. But actually, sometimes I think that actually a student idea is pure. You know, it's sort of, uh, it's, it hasn't had the effects of 30 years in the design business, um, you know, lavished upon it. So actually sometimes the student idea can be the best idea.

   25. CWChris Williamson47:42

       Unencumbered, yeah.

   26. BDBruce Duckworth47:43

       So I actually quite like... Studenty to me is actually, these days, I think it's quite a, it's- it's quite a good thing.

   27. CWChris Williamson47:49

       I get it. I think what, what we mean when we say student is more bottles of VK and, um-

   28. BDBruce Duckworth47:55

       (laughs) Yes.

   29. CWChris Williamson47:56

       ... girls, girls in denim shorts. I think that's kind of what we're urinating toward.

   30. BDBruce Duckworth47:59

       (laughs)
5. 1:00:00 – 1:07:10

   They're the sweet …

   1. BDBruce Duckworth1:00:00

      everybody was into home baking, and it- Mr. Kipling were going to relaunch as that kind of a brand. So they were going to not be... The- the- the- 'cause they- they're sort of charming for what they are, which is a sort of, you know, everyday, you know, in plastic baked good, and everybody knows what they're like. So there-

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:16

      They're the sweet

   3. BDBruce Duckworth1:00:16

      ... and Bessies, aren't they? Yes (laughs) . Yes, sort of, uh, yes, you're right. Um, but there was a lot of, um, uh, emphasis on making it much more of a home baked type product. And so we did this packaging that looked absolutely spectacular, and looked just like a home baked, uh, Mr. Kipling would. You know, it was all... It was beautiful photography, it- it looked fantastic. And Nigella Lawson would've been proud of it. And then, about, uh, six weeks before everything was due to launch, um, the factory had just, um, found it very difficult to replicate the actual products, the change of product, um, to look as good as the actual homemade product that we had photographed. And so they said, "Actually, what we're gonna do, is we're gonna launch with the old cakes and the new packaging," because the packaging, loved it, so I think everybody who saw it in consumer research absolutely loved it, and said, "We would just buy so much more if we- if it looked like that." And- and that was a- a classic. So many le- so many lessons you can learn from that. So they launched it with the new packaging and the old product.... and, of course, everyone bought it. It... Spike in sales went through the roof. And then, everyone opened it up and it was exactly the same as it was-

   4. CWChris Williamson1:01:26

      (laughs)

   5. BDBruce Duckworth1:01:26

      ... and there wasn't anything like what was on the outside.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:01:28

      (laughs)

   7. BDBruce Duckworth1:01:28

      So, the sort of... You have to be truthful in, in everything that you do. And, and although they wanted to move into, into a new area and be really exciting, which would have been great had they been able to produce the product, um, you know, there's a real lesson that you can't... You know, you can't pretend to be something that you're not, you know? You do have to just be truthful. Um, and what they should have done was just stalled the relaunch and got the product right and then launched the two together. That's what should have happened, but it didn't. And, um, yeah, that's a lesson. Uh, we have had many failures, but that's, uh, fairly spectacular.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:04

      I can't believe that you've been, uh, flummoxed by baking. Like you've done-

   9. BDBruce Duckworth1:02:10

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:10

       ... you've got everything right, and then some fella somewhere in the factory put too much butter in and now you've got to... Your design's knackered. I can't-

   11. BDBruce Duckworth1:02:18

       Well, it doesn't work. Y- Y- Because what you're trying to do is be unmistakable in what you're trying to visualize, but you're also trying to get the truth of what the product is out to people so that they're under no illusion. Uh, you know, it has to be honest and truthful and decent and, and exciting to look at, and, you know, and lying doesn't work.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:02:39

       But that integration now, I think, and, and integrity and, and having virtue as a brand from top to bottom, from packaging to product to pricing to, uh, company ethos, to all of that stuff, especially now with always-on 24/7 communication, which is seamless and happens across the globe, there's no room to pull the wool over customers' eyes anymore.

   13. BDBruce Duckworth1:02:59

       Correct.

   14. CWChris Williamson1:02:59

       You can't be the psychopath, the traveling psychopath that used to take advantage of every town and then, "Oh, well, I'm done there now. Like, let's snake oil salesman my way to the next one." Like, there isn't... There's none of that anymore. You see brands... You see people say sentences. Milo Yiannopoulos. I was reminiscing about Milo Yiannopoulos' fall from grace. Like, it... One sentence on one podcast, and that's-

   15. BDBruce Duckworth1:03:21

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:03:21

       ... him gone from the entire public sphere. Done. And you're like, "Oh, my God." Sargon of Akkad, his entire Patreon gone, one sentence in some bizarre corner of the, the internet, you know? All of these different people. And the same is true for bra... Even, even more so for brands. Leverage through the roof, right?

   17. BDBruce Duckworth1:03:38

       Yeah. And actually, now is an interesting time for brands. I mean, because, you know, uh, I was noticing in my, um, on my, uh, essential trip to, uh, the supermarket earlier, the empty shelves. And I was thinking how interesting it was that all of the kind of funky new, uh, brands that are out there were actually on the shelf still, but the kind of older, more trusted, uh, safe brands had all sold out. You know, um, you know, the, the, the disinfectant that isn't organic and just destroys everything-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:04:12

       (laughs)

   19. BDBruce Duckworth1:04:12

       ... had sold out, you know? Uh-

   20. CWChris Williamson1:04:14

       Mr. Muscle is never gonna struggle during a pandemic, is he?

   21. BDBruce Duckworth1:04:18

       (laughs) Absolutely.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:04:18

       Mr. Muscle, with Mr. Kipling and Aunt Bessie are absolutely loving-

   23. BDBruce Duckworth1:04:23

       Yeah. (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       ... it at the moment. They're all having a party around... They're not doing social distancing. They're shaking hands.

   25. BDBruce Duckworth1:04:27

       (laughs)

   26. CWChris Williamson1:04:27

       Yeah. It's, um... I, I couldn't agree more.

   27. BDBruce Duckworth1:04:29

       See how they- h- how they're behaving. And you see, you know, Louis Vuitton producing... Yeah, and a number of others now following the same suit, producing, um, you know, some kind of hand wipes or whatever, or, you know, some kind of disinfectant-type products. And you think, that's a, that's a really good bit of, um, you know, branding for them. You know, people will remember them as being, you know, um, a company that reacted fast, you know. Someone l- like, um, you know, Louis Vuitton, you think is so, sort of, so out of reach of most people, but I think the decisions they've made as a brand, uh, in... at this moment are, are fantastic. Um...

   28. CWChris Williamson1:05:06

       They are. I wonder... I brought this up again-

   29. BDBruce Duckworth1:05:08

       You wouldn't remember it.

   30. CWChris Williamson1:05:08

       ... recently, but I wonder how many brands are weaponizing goodwill at the moment. I think they are. I think a lot of them are doing something that is, that is virtue signaling for the sake of it because they think someone in a meeting somewhere... And maybe this is just my skepticism about brands that have turned a corner. And again, what that words imply, either it... One of two things can be correct. Either the brands are, um, weaponizing goodwill and they're using it to, uh, further their, uh, brand equity that they can then monetize in the future, or their marketing communication in advance of that wasn't sufficiently effective to make me believe that they were the sort of company that would do this off their own back.

Episode duration: 1:07:11