Designing The World's Biggest Brands | Bruce Duckworth | Modern Wisdom Podcast 167

Chris Williamson 0:00 ... did you come up with the Amazon box smile design?

Bruce Duckworth 0:04 Yes.

Chris Williamson 0:05 How many people do you think have seen that?

Bruce Duckworth 0:07 "How many people?" is, is an interesting question. I think that somebody had worked it out that just the logo printed on packaging, had been printed on packaging about 100 billion times.

Chris Williamson 0:18 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 0:18 Um, and I've just never... You know, that's just extraordinary, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 0:21 Jeff Bezos said, "Anyone who doesn't like this logo doesn't like puppies."

Bruce Duckworth 0:25 That, that's exactly what he said. I mean, it was a response by somebody-

Chris Williamson 0:28 (laughs) Bruce, so good to speak to you. How are you?

Bruce Duckworth 0:36 I mean, I'm very well. I'm very well. The, the, the sun is shining in West Dorset, so I'm very happy. Very happy right now.

Chris Williamson 0:41 I know, uh, for the people that are only listening, you're gonna have to imagine, but I've got some color in me somehow today. I've spent couple of hours in the garden reading and, and prepping for this podcast, and somehow managed to get some color in me. Uh, I know it might not come across on the... It'll be Dean, it'll be video guy Dean filtering it out, that's the only reason that you can't see it.

Bruce Duckworth 0:59 Right.

Chris Williamson 0:59 Um, first, first things first, did you come up with the Amazon box smile design?

Bruce Duckworth 1:07 Yes. So that-

Chris Williamson 1:09 How many, how many people do you think have seen that? E- everyone that's listening, think about the last Amazon parcel you got, it was probably this morning. The fact that underneath Amazon, there's a little smiley face, but it didn't-

Bruce Duckworth 1:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:20 ... used to be like that apparently. I went on your website, didn't used to be like that, used to be the other way-

Bruce Duckworth 1:25 Yes.

Chris Williamson 1:25 ... like a frow- like a frowny face. That told us-

Bruce Duckworth 1:27 That's right.

Chris Williamson 1:28 T- tell us about that.

Bruce Duckworth 1:29 Yeah, so that's, um... "How many people?" is, is an interesting, um, question. I think that somebody had worked it out that just the logo printed on packaging, had been printed on packaging about 100 billion times.

Chris Williamson 1:43 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 1:43 Um, and I've just never... You know, that's just extraordinary, isn't it? That's just packaging. That's let alone, not on side of airplanes or lorries, or-

Chris Williamson 1:50 Gift cards.

Bruce Duckworth 1:50 ... on websites which-

Chris Williamson 1:51 Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 1:51 ... of course, and gift cards, all the rest of it. So that's just an extraordinary thing, isn't it? When you, when you design something and you're responsible for drawing it, and then it's repeated so many hundreds of billions of times, it's just unbelievable, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 2:02 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 2:03 I suppose we didn't think it was ever gonna be as big as that, obviously, you know. I mean, who could have imagined? I- I'm sure even Jeff Bezos didn't realize it was quite as big as he's got now. Um, it was... I think it was about 20 years ago, um, Amazon were, um, they, th- they were the, the biggest bookseller, uh, online bookseller, if you remember, and that's all they did, just bookselling. And, um, and they... It was, uh, the... We, we had, uh, an office in San Francisco and, um, we were working on a lot of .com boom and the subsequent bust, um, kind of companies around the kind of '98 type, um, time. And, um, and, and Amazon, uh, wanted to change their business model from being just a- an online bookseller to sell everything on the internet. And so, um, the meeting, uh, with Jeff Bezos was we need to, um... The brief from him was, "We need to tell everybody, um, that we're now selling everything on the internet, uh, not just books. And we also need to tell everybody that we are the most consumer-friendly. We want to be the most consumer-friendly, um, company on the internet." Because at the time, although that seems like everybody does that now, at the time, that was quite a big deal. Um, and so those are the two things we had to communicate. And, uh, you know, logo design is about communication. And so you have to try and find a unique thing that is to do with their name, um, and what they're trying to communicate. So, um, Amazon, we were lucky or we looked hard, I guess, um, there's an A and a Z in Amazon, if you think of the name. And so it's, um... So an arrow that went from A to Z means everything, right? So we thought if we could, um, link the A to the Z, uh, with a smile, which was a sort of, you know, looks a bit like an arrow, but is also a smile, it goes from A to Z and it's sort of consumer-friendly. Um, which is a sort of, you know, that's, uh, you know, that's the answer, right, to the, to the brief. ... as it turned out, the logo before had a sort of an underline, which was a sort of like an, like a sort of frown smile, like an upside-down smile. So actually just by inverting that and adding the arrowhead to the end, we managed to move it, sort of manipulate it from being one look of a logo, um, into the new logo with meaning. And that, and I think that sort of, uh, has, has done us well. I mean, wherever I go in the world, (laughs) there is a piece of my work on someone's desk somewhere.

Chris Williamson 4:23 So who did, who did the actual piece? That... Was it you that drew the thing? You, you specifically-

Bruce Duckworth 4:27 Yeah. Well, I-

Chris Williamson 4:27 ... or was it someone in your team?

Bruce Duckworth 4:28 ... I, I... No, in, in my team.

Chris Williamson 4:30 Okay.

Bruce Duckworth 4:30 There's a guy called Anthony Biles. Smiles Biles, we called him after that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:33 No way. That's cool. Congratulations, Anthony. Your work's been seen by-

Bruce Duckworth 4:37 Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:37 ... billions and billions of people.

Bruce Duckworth 4:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:39 Am I right in saying Jeff Bezos said, "Anyone who doesn't like this logo doesn't like puppies."

Bruce Duckworth 4:45 That, that's exactly what he said. I mean, it was a response-

Chris Williamson 4:48 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 4:48 ... of somebody, somebody on, in his team. You know, you had these... There weren't that many people, um, uh, in his team. It was very kind of, you know, talk to the main man and the, the key people. But there was somebody in consumer insights who said, "Shouldn't we at least test this with consumers?" And he was like, "Really? If you don't like smiles, you don't like puppies." And so, yes, that, that is a true... And anyway, and actually-

Chris Williamson 5:09 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 5:09 ... there's sort of... You know, you try and capture a little bit of the personality of, um, the company in the logo. So obviously, it's just a symbol, it can't do everything. Um, but actually, he had, uh, Jeff Bezos has a very sort of guffawing laugh. And somehow when I see that smile, it reminds me of him.

Chris Williamson 5:26 Jeff Bezos encapsulated in type and-

Bruce Duckworth 5:28 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:29 ... in type and, and...

Bruce Duckworth 5:30 Yes. But it is amazing when you, you know... And, and I think that's part of the, the joy of graphic design, you know. And, and what I love so much about design is that, that, you know, when you do create something, um, which has, um, y- you know, something good about it, that, that literally billions of people could see it, you know. Um, it's not a one-off. It's, um, it's designed to be published many, many, many times.

Chris Williamson 5:52 It's a legacy, right? Yeah, it really is very transcendent. Um, I mean, hearing the richest man on the planet behind probably the single most popular-... cons- uh, consumer company on the planet, likening the logo that you made to puppies. There's not many higher accolades that you can get than that, right?

Bruce Duckworth 6:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 6:11 I mean, where do you go from there?

Bruce Duckworth 6:12 Yeah, exactly. Is there anything better than a puppy?

Chris Williamson 6:15 Yeah, no, they- that's it. I challenge anyone listening to tell us anything that's better than a puppy. So we, we've kind of skated around it. What- what do you do? What is Turner Duckworth?

Bruce Duckworth 6:23 So, um, uh, Turner Duckworth, we- we're graphic designers. Um, we design, um, logos and, uh, the packaging and the visual identity for brands. So, um, how would you know things that we've done? If you walk into any supermarket, um, and you pick up a piece of packaging, somebody has designed that packaging. Um, and what I mean by that is they design the logo, the colors, the, uh, typography, the illustration, the photography, has all been created by somebody like me. Um, and- and- and so that's what we do. We create the look, the visual identity of a brand. And the way that sort of starts is often on packaging design because that is the one piece that everybody gets to see. Um, and has to... you- it's really the closest thing you get to the product itself. So, for example, we redesigned, um, everything for Coca-Cola, um, about s- ten years ago probably now. Um, and when you think about a bottle of Coca-Cola, you know, the- the closest you come to the liquid itself is the packaging. I mean, it has to... And- and it becomes something that every-

Chris Williamson 7:25 Until it's inside you, yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 7:26 ... till it's... Yes, exactly.

Chris Williamson 7:27 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 7:27 Um, or... Yes, exactly. So the packaging becomes a truly, sort of truly iconic thing. Um, and- and, yeah, so that's what- what we've designed for all sorts of different people. And I have a company that is... uh, has about 120 people. Um, and th- about 80 of those are other graphic designers. Um, and the rest are support team that make all of that work.

Chris Williamson 7:48 Wow. That's so cool. Were you guys anything to do with the names on the Coke cans? Was that part of your...

Bruce Duckworth 7:55 Uh, no. Yeah, you had to bring that up, didn't you? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 7:57 Sorry, bruise. Ugh, awkward.

Bruce Duckworth 8:01 It was around about the same time. Um, but no, that was done, um, by an Australian, um, team, uh, in, um, at Coca-Cola. Um, so-

Chris Williamson 8:08 The designs look lovely anyway, even the ones without the names on, they look lovely as well.

Bruce Duckworth 8:12 (laughs) . Well, it's- it's a sort of interesting, um, you know, when you have a company... You know, we started by working for lots of little, tiny little brands. Um, so, you know, uh, w- wouldn't be unusual to have seen our, uh, work for startups. So for example, Innocent Smoothies, when they first started, we did the original bottle, the shape of the bottle design. Um, and that would have been, um, a typical kind of client of ours, um, back in the day. And then as we got, uh, more successful and the bigger guys come- came to see us, and ultimately the biggest brand in the world, um, was- was Coca-Cola, consumer brand. And, uh, and so to design that was, um, an- an- an amazing thing. But, uh, y- of course what they loved about our work, which is the reason that we got the job in the first place, was that we were able to, um, get across a kind of interesting, um, looking, uh, design across all different sort of touch points, which is every time you sort of see or touch the brand, um, for small companies. And they wanted to do the same, um, for a big company like Coca-Cola, which can... Uh, Coca-Cola and those kind of companies can come across as the kind of enormous corporate giants. And who wants to, you know, to, you know, have any kind of consumer relationship with those kind of companies? They seem, um, austere, and, you know, like a big system. Um, and so, you know, although we designed the packaging to start with, then we design everything else in the way and guidelines for the way everything looks. And our- and our idea with Coca-Cola was to stop it looking just like a big corporate giant, but to give it some kind of friendliness and, um, you know, humanity, like there are actual humans (laughs) in the Coca-Cola company-

Chris Williamson 9:49 There must be some.

Bruce Duckworth 9:49 ... rather, uh, yes. Yeah, there are. I'm sure there are. The- well, I know there are. Um, rather than just a sort of big old corporate giant.

Chris Williamson 9:56 Well, bizarrely, with the small company, you already have that brand communication just naturally. You know the size of the company. Everyone knows that Coca-Cola is big. So it makes sense that oddly, from a signaling perspective, the small company wants to potentially look more corporate because it signals that they have gravitas and they're established within the market. And then you get to the point where you have gravitas and are established within the market, and you're desperately trying to look like John down the road who's just-

Bruce Duckworth 10:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 10:27 ... s- started his little company.

Bruce Duckworth 10:29 Yeah. I mean, it's exactly- that's exactly true. There's a- there must be a sweet spot for the type of brand at the right- exactly the right moment. Uh, and, but, you know, when you've got a brand that's 125 years old like Coca-Cola, it's constantly reinventing itself.

Chris Williamson 10:41 Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 10:42 Um, yeah. So exactly- that's exactly the- the... And, uh, you know, and the, I guess consumers are also looking for new things. Um, and, you know, they don't want to just be buying the same old stuff all the time. And certainly, if a brand like Coca-Cola starts to look old-fashioned, it's been around for a long time, you know, you- you- you can see sales drift off.

Chris Williamson 10:59 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 11:00 Um, so- so what we do is, um, you know, keep them up-to-date. You know, people say to me, "What? Do you really des- you didn't really- can't really have designed the Coca-Cola logo because that's been around for 125 years," which is true. Um, in- interestingly, that, uh, that Coca-Cola script-

Chris Williamson 11:15 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 11:15 ... it's called the Spencerian script, was actually, um, was taken from... The or- the original of that was actually taken from the handwriting of the accountant of Coca-Cola-

Chris Williamson 11:24 No way.

Bruce Duckworth 11:25 ... who had the... You know, accountants back in the day when you had those big ledgers had the most amazing calligraphic scripts. Um, and so yeah, that- that's where it originally came from. And- and over the years, that has been slightly tweaked and slightly tweaked to make a little bit more legible and a little bit more beautiful. Um, and- and although consumers and consumers and customers and people you've... I mean, I don't know. I don't really like the term consumers, but that's what they... well, that's what we all are, right?

Chris Williamson 11:51 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 11:51 Um, you don't notice the difference necessarily all the time. Um, but it stops the brand. What we do stops that kind of brand becoming old-fashioned.

Chris Williamson 11:58 Yeah. It must be- it must be a challenge. There's so many doorways that I could go down here. It's like, f- I- I finally get to speak to Santa Claus and ask him how all of the toys are made. This is kind of how it- how it feels a little bit.

Bruce Duckworth 12:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:10 Um, but, uh-

Bruce Duckworth 12:11 Well, I'll tell you if you ask the right question. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:12 Yeah. I'm try- I'm desperately trying, uh, I promise.

Bruce Duckworth 12:15 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:16 ... it's certainly one thing that I think there is, um, uh, reinventing brands that don't need to be done. This goes out to my business partner, Darren, who insists every year on us updating the artwork for our club nights, whether they're performing well or whether they're performing badly. And I'm like, "Man, there has to be a point." And the, the reason that I don't like it or that I have an aversion to it is that the market changes by exactly one-third or more every year because the students leave. I'm like, "Look, you know, at least one-third of the people see this as brand new artwork." And because we tend toward younger students in any case, I'm like, "The ones that were our market last year, they've already pissed off. They don't care." Um, but y- with the Coca-Cola thing, there could be, uh, a potential where you try and reinvent something that actually is fine. And I can imagine there'll be a lot of meetings where people sit around and say, "We need a new design. We need to inject some more, g- new- newness into this thing." And you're like, "Ah, maybe that's not quite right." I wonder how many brands overshoot on refreshing their look.

Bruce Duckworth 13:17 Well, I think yes. I, I, I think some do. Um, but, but they're actually more likely to not even try, not to go anywhere near overshooting because they're often so cautious. I mean, these are billion-dollar brands, you know. They really are selling an enormous amount of product, and they really don't want to get it wrong. Um, because there are sort of channels of, of promotion and, and, uh, communication, which people hardly ever see, or half your audience never see. But packaging is one of those things that everybody sees. Um, so it, it's an incredibly intense, um, uh, uh, process of getting exactly, exactly, exactly right, you know.

Chris Williamson 13:55 I could-

Bruce Duckworth 13:56 Exactly the right color red, exactly the... You know, all that kind of stuff.

Chris Williamson 13:59 I can only imagine how specific your guys have to be.

Bruce Duckworth 14:02 Yeah. Yeah. And, and you... And I think over the years, you know, you... I mean, I'm, I'm an art student. I mean, I, that's, that's what I've... You know, I started by drawing at school and things, and I, and you end up doing this. And, um, what I suppose we've done is we've become sort of enormous specialists in, um... We can... Y- you know, the, the skill we have of choosing the right typefaces, choosing the right colors, the right, uh, the way the lettering is drawn, illustration, photography, all that kind of thing. It... Y- I can make things these days, if, if you say, I want it to be a little bit, look a little bit more classy, I know exactly what to do.

Chris Williamson 14:35 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 14:35 But I want to make it a little bit less than, I know exactly what to do.

Chris Williamson 14:37 You are a dream ... because it's like a... You know, it's like a kind of, um-

Bruce Duckworth 14:42 Mixing desk.

Chris Williamson 14:42 It's like a mixing desk, right?

Bruce Duckworth 14:44 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 14:44 And you just pull things up and push things down. And because we have a... All graphic designers have this sort of, you know, we see in p-... You know, we see in... We would... You know, we're not in words or numbers like some of your guests have been, uh, but we see... We, we just work in pictures the whole time. Um, yeah, yeah. In, in my mind, I sometimes feel like I... You know, I can remember so many visual things, um, and I can't remember the last thing I read even if I read it two minutes ago.

Bruce Duckworth 15:11 (laughs) Well-

Chris Williamson 15:12 But I can remember things I've seen.

Bruce Duckworth 15:14 When you have an, an-

Chris Williamson 15:16 That's my definition of retention in my mind.

Bruce Duckworth 15:17 Yeah, yeah. When you guys are working at the... It's Premier League design level, right? Biggest companies in the world, most important projects in the world. You need someone who, um, in the nicest way possible has a, a freakish side to one particular domain of their competence, right? You need someone who literally can only see in pictures. Yeah. Can s-... Can take the word. And you've touched on that there. I, I want to get into a couple of things. One of them being entrepreneurs and how, how, um, we, me as a good example, can communicate with other versions of you, uh, more effectively. And they... You've touched on it there about that. "I want it just a little bit more sort of classy," or, "Can we have it a bit more kind of, you know, like edgy?" Yes. And what people do, what I'm trying to say is, I'm using a word, which is the closest proxy for an impression of something I want to see. And I just... Yes. That's so inefficient. Like, it's so many steps removed, you know. Yeah. But the fact... You guys being able to take that and then have the skills to deploy it. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:27 That's where-

Bruce Duckworth 16:28 I mean, I think the skill is, um, you know, particularly when you g- come to do things like a logo, for example. I mean, Amazon is just... It's only prints in one color. You can't... I mean, there's not... No- nothing you can do really with color particularly. Um, it's only got, you know, just a few letters. And how do you communicate all these things? Um, and so we spend a lot of time, um, uh, when we've got a design figuring out the st- the reason why that design is the correct design for the client. And so we would use a lot of the words they've used, the edgy, the classy, all those kind of words, um, and, and, and explain how that manifests itself as a visual. So if it's classy, what does classy mean visually? I mean, I know what it means... You know, in your head, is it the same as it is in my head? And so you could... What... Y- y- by going through every single kind of personality trait that they're trying to, um, communicate, you can, you can sort of narrow it all down graphically, um, to something that makes sense at the end. And you can s-... You can sort of see in a, in a typical presentation, in a good presentation-

Chris Williamson 17:31 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 17:31 ... you can see clients kind of nodding along and nodding along, and you go, "So this is the answer," and they nod. (laughs) And then you go-

Chris Williamson 17:37 Yes. Did it...

Bruce Duckworth 17:37 ... "Thanks very much. That was great."

Chris Williamson 17:38 That's fantastic.

Bruce Duckworth 17:38 (laughs) "How did you do that?" So you often only show people, clients, um, uh, you know, probably a maximum of three solutions. Um-

Chris Williamson 17:47 Why?

Bruce Duckworth 17:48 You know, because, um, actually it's much easier... Like it's much, much easier if I were to give my team designing a logo. Um, you know, they go off and, and they come back and show me the logos, um, that they've worked on for a few days, and there's maybe 50 logos there. Now I could take that to a client and I could say, "We've done 50 logos for you. Which one do you like?" But then actually, they're then put in a position where they're ha- they're becoming me, a creative director, because my job is to take but the best and only show the very best to the client, um, and hone them until they're perfect. Um, and, uh, and I think it's a kind of lazy...... to show more than three. In fact, the hardest thing would be to show them one solution, um, because then it would have to be absolutely spot on. It tends to be that you sh- have to show clients more than one because, um, th- the way they describe what they want has slight different nuances. So you have to just tease out from them which one they really mean.

Chris Williamson 18:50 This is a bit more classy. This is a bit more edgy.

Bruce Duckworth 18:53 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 18:53 This is a bit more whatever it might be.

Bruce Duckworth 18:55 Yes, yes. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:55 Yeah, I- I get it.

Bruce Duckworth 18:56 But- but- but the principle and, uh, what you're trying to communicate through the symbolism, um, is- is exactly the same in that sense.

Chris Williamson 19:02 Yeah, the para- that paradox of choice is a- is a real thing. You know?

Bruce Duckworth 19:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:05 When you have- you have the entire world of shapes and colors at your disposal to- to make something from, it's going to be challenging. So, um, you design, you said, prod- like packaging, um, the way that products look and stuff.

Bruce Duckworth 19:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:20 I mean, if you want to put wings on a McNuggets box, can you do it? Like, can you just say, "Oh, we really think that the wings would look good."

Bruce Duckworth 19:27 Well-

Chris Williamson 19:27 You mentioned about something having movement in it.

Bruce Duckworth 19:30 Yeah. (laughs) . Yeah, sure you can. I mean, it's, um, a- it- it's all possible, right? The, uh, y- you have to. I think consumers are very, um, you know, uh, they- they- they think long and hard these days, um, about, uh, recyclability and sustainability. And if the wings you put on a McNuggets box are completely frivolous and superfluous, (laughs) -

Chris Williamson 19:51 (laughs) .

Bruce Duckworth 19:51 ... then they probably will think that's exact- that's ex- they- they're not stupid.

Chris Williamson 19:54 Dummy.

Bruce Duckworth 19:54 That- that's exactly what they'll think it is. (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 19:56 Dummy. Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 19:56 Frivolous and super- superl- Uh, so I think, um, you know, we have to- we have to think like consumers. I mean, y- it s- in the last 10 years, our- our relationship with those kind of brands has changed because we do, particularly with food brands, uh, because of course, we deal with the aftermath of- of the product. You know, the packaging is litter and, you know, whether it's recyclable or it's not recyclable, you know, we have to deal with that much more than we used to. We used to just- used to just throw it in the bin and forget about it. And these days, we... yeah, we have to sort it out and we ha- and we're very aware of, um, what's good for the environment and bad. And so I think... and brands that are, you know, uh, excessive, you know, consumers don't like them, which is fair enough.

Chris Williamson 20:39 Mm-hmm. Okay. It's s- I find it so fascinating that you start with the packaging and then- and then work from there.

Bruce Duckworth 20:46 Hm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:47 I think it's so in- I think it's so interesting.

Bruce Duckworth 20:48 Because it's so close. It's so close, isn't it? So we designed, um, the- the visual identity for Levi Strauss, you know, the- the jeans, you know, and they're on the back of, um... an- and they have kind of packaging. You know, they have a logo on the... which is a little red tab that goes in, sewn into the back pocket. They have another logo that is, um, across the back- back pocket, which is two sort of curves. It's like a- almost like a seagull, a flying seagull, kind of in- in, uh, very simple terms, called the Arcuate, um, which has always been a trademark of theirs. And then they have that leather patch that you stick on the back of the jean. Um, all of those become their packaging. Now that... now, uh, the- the- the- the denim trousers without those elements are not Levi's.

Chris Williamson 21:29 (laughs) .

Bruce Duckworth 21:29 Um, but with them, and the buttons as well, um, with them and all the trademarks that go around those, uh, that's a pair of Levi's. So the packaging is sort of absolutely essential to the product in a lot of cases.

Chris Williamson 21:43 I lo- I love-

Bruce Duckworth 21:43 And I think... Hm? Sorry, carry on.

Chris Williamson 21:45 I just... I love the- the way that you said about the- the packaging being the closest that you get to the product.

Bruce Duckworth 21:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:50 Especially with stuff that you consume. Like-

Bruce Duckworth 21:53 Yeah. And- and- and where, you know? I mean, uh, how... if you're... y- you know, the- the- the logos that you're wearing on your T-shirt, you know, that's- that's, you know, that's a- that's another form of branding and another form of packaging.

Chris Williamson 22:05 Yeah. It is. What does, um, Love the Unmistakable mean?

Bruce Duckworth 22:10 Um, w- what you're trying to do is to, uh, all the time with every brand that we work on is find the thing that is truly unique about them and then communicate that in their packaging and their logos and everything else that- that we end up designing. Um, and unique is one thing. Um, and unique is, uh, we- we call that being... try and be unmistakable, um, and what we mean by that is that, uh, l- like I... y- you know, when I go on the Tube, um, and I go to the office, um, I- I don't take any notice of the adverts in the Tube, right? I don't... really don't. I've got my head down and I'm doing other things. Um, but as I go up the escalators, these adverts flick past from this corners of my eye, um, and they are... I am registering some kind of communication from them w- although I'm not looking directly at them. And I think that, uh, if a... if- if- if a- a visual identity, uh, the things that we do, if that's truly effective, even that little peripheral vision actually registers that that's the brand and because it is completely unmistakable, you know? Um, so there's- there's a good reason that Coca-Cola is red and- and Pepsi-Cola is blue, you know? I mean, they're very... (laughs) they're very different, right? And they're completely unmistakable. Um, and- and- and yeah, so that's what we're always striving for, is to be so unique that you're unmistakable.

Chris Williamson 23:30 You're right as well, it's, um... it does more of the work for you. Having a brand image which is unique and is unmistakable, it scales itself beyond the communication, right? You're right. You- you can just catch it out the corner of your eye. I know a McDonald's when I see a McDonald's, even if I'm looking and like-

Bruce Duckworth 23:52 Yeah. (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 23:53 ... oh, 5% of my vision is able to see it. I'm like, "That's a McDonald's over there."

Bruce Duckworth 23:56 Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Chris Williamson 23:57 Like, you know? So with Starbucks, same with whatever.

Bruce Duckworth 23:59 And that's that combination... It's exactly the combination of yellow and red that do that, you know? Those are design elements. Now, you know, uh, it- it's become very interesting in the last sort of 10... Exactly. In fact, it's almost exactly 10. It actually may even be nearly 11 years because, um, the- our design world was- was, uh, transformed when Apple produced the iPhone. Um, because Apple, which I've always sort of thought is a- a company where they've taken de- design principles to their absolute perfection. I think some... the- the products are beautifully designed, the user interface is beautifully designed, the, um... the r-... how they use their iconography of their Apple. You know, if you, if, if you were a, um, an alien and you landed on this planet and you saw an Apple store, you'd think we worshiped apples. I mean, b- it's that, it's that strong and that-

Chris Williamson 24:49 Chu- the Church of Apple, you are right.

Bruce Duckworth 24:50 ... yes, yeah. And, um, and what the iPhone did was it, it made everybody, um, e- everybody, um, realize what good design was. Um, and it put the standard way higher than it was before. And particularly for these very large brands, and the kind of, the Coca-Colas, the McDonald's, um, who I think had fallen out of step with good design, um, and had spent all their money in other areas of communication. Um, w- they realized that then, and ce- certainly when we, when we did our work on Coca-Cola, that, you know, "We want to be as good as Apple are. We need to be as good as Apple because our consumers are, are seeing Apple every single... They're using this. It's in their hand, it's in their pocket. They're seeing it every single day." You know that beautiful box that ki- (laughs) that your Apple iPhone comes in? You know, those kind of, um, experiences are pure design experiences, and they communicate to the consumer about quality, that everything's been thought of, you know. And so, you know, by considering the design, if they feel like everything... Consumers think then that everything that Apple produces has been carefully considered, which it has. You know? A friend of mine works for Apple and said to me, "You know, we don't send an, an email to anybody unless it's been through the design department, because, you know, if we send one email to our Apple iPhone customers, that's how many hundreds of thousands of millions or whatever it is of people is that? You know, you get the design wrong there, um, and, and it kind of, the whole, the whole i- is, you know, everything-"

Chris Williamson 26:17 Adhesive, yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 26:18 Yeah, everything's so, so cohesive. And, um, so, so I'd like to personally thank Steve Jobs for (laughs) you know, for promoting design in a way that, um, other, other brands at that scale hadn't done. It used to be a much more elitist thing, you know, where, um, you know, good design was seen in opera, for posters for operas, and, you know, beautiful, you know, expensive luxury products and, and spirits and wines and that kind of thing. And now I think that the good design is actually much, much more, um, for everybody, which is a much better thing.

Chris Williamson 26:54 An inflection point of that was Apple releasing the iPhone. That's s-

Bruce Duckworth 26:59 It was.

Chris Williamson 26:59 ... so incredible that a whole... You know, it's not as if what you're doing is new a- new media, you know? People have been designing stuff for ages.

Bruce Duckworth 27:10 Oh, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:10 And you can just-

Bruce Duckworth 27:11 I mean, you look at the, look at the great logos of our time, you know, the, the, probably the greatest logo is, I mean depends on your religion, but I mean the, you know, the Christian cross is a, is a logo. It's a representation of, uh, of the, of, of, of the Bible. Um, and, and, you know, and a, and a great, uh, n- not, not a great, um, um, example maybe, but, I mean, the, the swastika is also a fantastic piece of design, graphic design. I mean, it's a, based on a, I think the Him- the Hindu symbol for peace, I think, o- o- oddly enough. Um, and actually, y- you know, but it, it was this incredibly powerful, uh, piece of graphic design. Uh, not sure I believe exactly what the company stood for in that case.

Chris Williamson 27:52 Yeah, well you don't need to, do you? It can be, it can stand alone as it, as a, as a, a, a g- good piece of art.

Bruce Duckworth 27:56 As, as, as a good piece of design, yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:58 Yeah. Um, I remember, I dunno whether the listeners will be able to, but I remember buying phones, like maybe like a Blackberry in 2008 type time, 2009. And I remember getting that out of the box. And it would be wrapped in cellophane, and there'd be like a huge piece of documentation that came with it, and a big warranty guide and all this other stuff. And you are right. Like, when you now purchase... Especially Apple are the elite minimalists when it comes to this stuff, right? Like, and you're, you're correct. Opening it is one of the most joyous experiences of using it, which is-

Bruce Duckworth 28:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:37 ... again, very transcendent. Very, very interesting.

Bruce Duckworth 28:41 And, and really, you know, every point you touch a brand, who, whatever that brand is, should have the equivalent of that, should be as good in whatever worsh-... I mean, it's unlikely to be as expensive and as beautifully produced. But I remember we did something for Coca-Cola which was, um, they had these little, um... So, so we did the packaging and we did the... And all these, um, e- executions all over the world was being done by local agencies. Um, but one of these executions came back and it was, um, and w- uh, that they said, "Oh, we always, um, have a little drinks mat that goes w- when you're on an airplane."

Chris Williamson 29:16 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 29:16 "And you o- you order a drink, it comes, you know, Coca-Cola provide the little circular drink mat that goes on your, on, on your tray table." And, um, and, uh, and, you know, I mean, it's a tiny little thing, right? Uh, um, but they, and they said, "Oh," we, we said, "How many, how many do you produce of these?" And they said, "Oh, we have a... We d- we do roughly about half a billion of those." Because of course the scale, the amount of drinks you have (laughs) . So, it's like, if you don't design that properly, then you're missing out on the opportunity of, you know, half a billion pieces of good communication. You know what I mean? So these small tiny things can, should be treated with, you know, with care and attention.

Chris Williamson 29:58 Yeah. I- is this integrated, cohesive, um, and unified movement, this, um, you know, unified front, like a, like a war, um, troops moving in battle type thing, they all go at the-

Bruce Duckworth 30:14 Yep.

Chris Williamson 30:14 ... at the right time, at the right pace? I think (clears throat) -

Bruce Duckworth 30:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:17 ... definitely seeing... And you are right. Like, I, I, I notice a change in the way that brands communicated pre-iPhone and post-iPhone, and it definitely does feel like that was a, an inflection point. There might be some people listening and thinking, "Well, this is, this is interesting from a consumer perspective. I don't really know how communicating with someone like yourself, a creative director or a des- graphic designer or whatever, is that interesting or that, that important for me, I suppose, in my, in my life." But w-... I challenge anyone to not have a problem with a graphic designer at some point in their life. Like, everybody, you've, you've got your mum's 50th coming up and you've got to make a Facebook cover photo, a b- banner for Facebook. Or your, your brother's started a dog grooming service, so you post, you post recommendations on, o- online saying, "Does anyone know any good local graphic designers?" And you get a million different things that come back. So I want to, um-

Bruce Duckworth 31:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:13 ... I want to ask how, as a client, and also as a graphic designer, I know that our designer, Johnny, will be listening. Uh, shout out, Johnny, you're awesome. Um, and-

Bruce Duckworth 31:23 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 31:24 ... um, a bunch of other graphic designers, creatives, and stuff like that. How can you ensure from both the graphic designer's perspective, and from the client's perspective, that the brief and the communication between the two is as smooth as possible, there's no superfluous stuff in there, it's as efficient but as thorough as it needs to be? Have you got some, some strategies of how you do that?

Bruce Duckworth 31:46 You, you mean between the client and the graphic designer?

Chris Williamson 31:49 Correct, yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 31:50 Yeah, yeah. Well, um, well, how does it become s- yeah, I mean, like, you know ... I think back in the, in the original kind of graphic designers who were originally ... okay, like, gra- graphic designing used to be called commercial artist, right? You know, um, that's what it was called before we were all called graphic designers. Um, and, and that kind of tells you a little bit about ... actually it's more descriptive what we do. You know, it is a sort of art, but it's, uh, for, for other people, right? It's the commercial part. We do it for money and we do it for other people. Um, and y- y- uh, there were always stories of how these kind of iconic, um, you know, spearheading graphic designers would stand on the windowsill of a 10-story building saying, "Buy my idea because it's so brilliant, and I'll throw myself off if you don't buy it. It's that good." We don't do that anymore. You know, we don't need to do that anymore, right? You know, um, and so I think the, uh, the, the communication is just it has to be, um ... see, what we're always looking, what as a graphic designer you're always looking for is that, you know, as, as I say, we think in pictures. So whatever you say to me that I need to translate into something that becomes, um, a piece of graphic design, I have to be able to put that into pictures, right? So you could, you could give me some words and say, "Bruce, I need it to be exactly like this," and you give me all these sort of quality, you know, high-end, um, uh, b- whatever it is. Um, but if I can't actually make it into a picture, you know, if I can't draw it, if I can't ... if it, if it just, some things you just can't draw because it's a feeling and it's an emotion, you just can't do it. Um, and so I think the communication has to be like the designer has to speak to the client and explain that kind of thing to them, so that whatever they say, they could give them a 200-page marketing report and say, "Now I need a logo. Can you do it from that?" And you say, "Well, there's no way I can condense all of that into a logo. You've only got one color and four letters," or whatever it is.

Chris Williamson 33:49 (laughs) .

Bruce Duckworth 33:49 Um, there's no way that can happen. Um, so I need to, um, I, I need to tease out that conversation between the client and the, and the designer has to be teasing out of the really, really important bits of information. What do you really want to say? You know, what do you really want to communicate? Um, and then when you've all agreed that that's the right thing, then go away and work at it, and then come back with solutions that really do answer those four or five words, whatever it is, um, that has to ... and so there's no room for, um, getting it wrong.

Chris Williamson 34:22 Should you always do your first briefing in person?

Bruce Duckworth 34:25 Oh, always, yeah. Because you, because how do you know, um, Jeff Bezos has got a guffawing laugh if you've never met him? Why do you know that that smile is right for him? You know, I mean, you know, that's not the reason we did it, but it nevertheless is part of the personality of the company. Um, so absolutely. You know, there's a a- all ... when you have a new designer, um, for example, a beer, like a brand of beer, you know, and you design a new beer, where if you go to the brewery, there's always, uh, you'll see things in the br- uh, w- despite what the client will t- talk to you about, you know, you'll, you'll also be observing all these different things, the way they brewed the beer, the way the hops come in, the way, you know, the shape of the whatever it is, the, the, the stills or the f-

Chris Williamson 35:07 The type of people that are brewing there, or the pigeons that rest on the things outside-

Bruce Duckworth 35:12 Exactly, and there's always, um-

Chris Williamson 35:14 ... and all that. Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 35:14 ... and there'll be a weathervane on top of the brewery, and you'll go, "Oh, that's interesting." You know? Or the brewery gates will have a bit of, uh, curly metal that'll inspire you. So yeah, you have to really immerse yourself in it and see them-

Chris Williamson 35:26 I love that. Uh, I think that's very, a very, um, sort of holistic, artistic, all-encompassing view. I think that's a really cool way to do it. And I, I guess as well the implication is as a client if you have an agenda and if you're desperate for your designer to not come up with something, you're gonna have to strap blinkers to the sides of their eyes-

Bruce Duckworth 35:45 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 35:46 ... so that they walk through the brewery or w- what are your particular premises and don't ... no, don't look at the pigeon over there. That weathervane is not for you-

Bruce Duckworth 35:52 (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 35:52 ... and this isn't a thing and blah, blah, blah. Don't look at the gates.

Bruce Duckworth 35:56 Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Um, I, I think that there's, uh, you know, some clients will definitely make a mistake of saying, "This is what I want. Now can you go away and do it?" And really what you're d- trying to say is, "This is what I need to communicate. How best would you bring it to life?"

Chris Williamson 36:10 I like that. I like that a lot. So one of the things that we touched on before we started, which I think is a really fascinating topic, is how creatives can commercialize their ability. Now, I know, uh, one of the guys that works for us at the moment, Ben, who will also be listening, fine art student in his final year of his master's at Newcastle University, just did an amazing display which unfortunately he never actually got to do because, uh, coronavirus kind of killed that. But unbelievable, like phenomenal stuff that he did. Um, how can he as a fine art student, someone who's good at drawing, someone who's got an interest in graphic design, or anyone else that's listening who has a passion like you had-... how do they go from just being considered to be the guy that gets watercolor, or the- the girl that gets watercolors out in a conservatory three times a year when she's bored, to someone that can actually, you know, make a living out of it? How do you-

Bruce Duckworth 37:04 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:04 ... how do you make that jump?

Bruce Duckworth 37:06 Well, I think, you know, in- in terms of graphic design, and- and I can't, I- I don't really know how you do it with fine art. Um, I mean, obviously there are, you know, there are some amazingly successful and rich and, you know, fantastic artists that, fine artists. But in graphic design world, you know, what we do is, is we do work for, someone's got a problem, a commercial, usually a commercial problem, um, or an opportunity that they need a graphic designer to help them with i- in order to make them more successful. And so what we do is provide part of the solution that makes them more successful. So we do have a value. What we produce actually has a value, you know. Um, you know, that Amazon, I- I wish I'd, just thinking about it now, I wish we had charged for the amount of times it had been used.

Chris Williamson 37:54 Oh, I was-

Bruce Duckworth 37:55 Rather than per view.

Chris Williamson 37:55 ... that was what I was thinking. If you'd got it per impression-

Bruce Duckworth 37:58 (laughs) Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:58 ... you could have charged, you could have charged an unbelievably low price.

Bruce Duckworth 38:03 Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, I should have. Yeah, we should have done that. That's a, that would have been a great, uh, 20/20, um, hindsight there.

Chris Williamson 38:09 Oh, God.

Bruce Duckworth 38:10 Um, but no, what we do is we do things that, that improve people's businesses and there is a, there's a genuine commercial benefit in us getting it right. So therefore, um, you know, w- we get paid for doing it and the higher up you get in the kind of, um, in, you know, if you're the best in the world at it, you'll get, should get paid the best in the world for doing it. Um, and so you can. You know, I think what's, what- what's amazing, because you're absolutely right, you know, I started off as, um, just being good at art at school, um, and then went to art college. And so what future is there for that? You know, um...

Chris Williamson 38:43 I feel like I know loads of people that were just good, like my mom was just good at art, but she's not-

Bruce Duckworth 38:47 Yes.

Chris Williamson 38:47 ... she- she's not running-

Bruce Duckworth 38:49 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 38:49 ... Amazon's new logo campaign.

Bruce Duckworth 38:51 No, no, no, that's right. So, um, you know, it's just, you just have to do something where there is a- a, there is a proper financial benefit to a client for using you. You know, if you get it done properly and you get it done well, I mean, you know, we did that Amazon logo 20 something years ago, you know, and- and it's still being used. That's, that wasn't, I mean, it was expensive at the time. I'm sure someone said it was too expensive at the time, but now looking back on it, it was cheap. You know, that's because it hasn't-

Chris Williamson 39:16 Jeff Bezos, driving that price down, getting himself a good deal.

Bruce Duckworth 39:21 Yeah. Yeah. And- and also I think that, uh, something to be very aware of as a designer is that often it is your, um, you know, um, some people think being a designer is a kind of gift, but it's also kind of a curse at the same time because you can draw things and visualize things and you think in a different way to, um, a lot of other people in business. Um, but also you can't kind of turn that off either. So, um, you know, wherever you go, you'll look at your friend's house and say, "Oh wow, look who painted it that well."

Chris Williamson 39:52 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 39:52 Um, but also it's sometimes they're prepared to do the work for- for not much money, um, because they just want to do it, because it's just, that's just what they just need to be producing.

Chris Williamson 40:02 It's in- it's in them.

Bruce Duckworth 40:02 In them. Um, and so, um, and you have to be very careful of that because what we do is produce something that is, does- does have a commercial value and a benefit. And so you need to charge the right amount of money for it. And so in my business, we have, um, people who talk to the clients about money, which is, who is not me. So I can be as enthusiastic and love, from a pure design point of view, love the opportunity that's about to present itself and truly, genuinely love it. And then, and then I leave the room and they go, "Bruce, you need to go now. And we need to talk about money."

Chris Williamson 40:37 The- the parents are talking now type thing.

Bruce Duckworth 40:39 Exactly. Yeah. Somebody else needs to talk about the money, um, who isn't the person who is going to be creating the design, because I think that then there's a, it's just such a conflict because you're so desperate to do the opportunity. Um, but, you know, I remember years and years ago, my, um, there was a recession, probably middle of the '90s sometime and, 1990s, and, uh, we were working for Schweppes, the- the, um, soft drink company. And they had decided that they needed to pitch out, um, the design for a new soft drink they were producing. And, um, they had a maximum, um, fee that was going to be 5,000 pounds to pitch, because we would never do, we'd never do any free pitching. We always get paid for it in our, in our industry. Um, and, and I said to my dad, I said, "You know, we just started this business." And I said, "I don't know if I can do that." I said, "I know it costs me 8,000 pounds to do the work and, uh, and- and they're only going to pay me 5,000. The other agencies have said they'll do it for 5,000. Um, but I don't think we can do that." And- and he, and he said to me, you know, he said, "What the- the worst, what you're trying to do is service your clients." And he said, "The worst service you could ever give your client would be to go bust in the halfway through the process of- of designing, because literally nobody would have anything and- and nowhere to go." And he said, "And if truthfully, you believe that it costs you 8,000 pounds to do this work, then you must go back to your client and say, 'Actually it's going to cost, I'm sorry, but it's going to have to cost 8,000 pounds.' Otherwise, the danger is we'll go bust and we'll leave you in the lurch, you know, if we were to win the job." So I did go back and I said that, and we won the pitch and they paid us 8,000 pounds.

Chris Williamson 42:17 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 42:17 Because it was true, it was truthful. There's no, it wasn't a con. I wasn't trying to con them out of any money. It was just true.

Chris Williamson 42:22 I- I actually really want an up, I just need to upgrade my vehicle and petrol is currently like 1.20 a- a gallon and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, I um, I really like the- the, um, idea of using, breaking the fourth wall in business communications, especially in meetings. I think that the days of very stodgy business meetings where the elephant in the room isn't addressed to me seem to be very, very dead and buried. And perhaps that's just my proclivity. I'm sure, I can't imagine that in, um...... civil engineering, there's many, like, jokes that get cracked. But when you're talking about trying to uncover everyone's biases and elicit the responses that you all are hiding, and sometimes even you yourself as someone of, you know, however many decades it is of experience in this industry, you might need some work from your client or your partners in kind of dragging that out of you.

Bruce Duckworth 43:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:20 So, Bruce, no, no, like, let's just, before we move on, what- what exactly-

Bruce Duckworth 43:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:24 ... are you trying to say, we, you know, that, that collaborative-

Bruce Duckworth 43:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:27 ... um, uh, what is it? Zero, uh, zero sum game, like a, but not, you know? It's like-

Bruce Duckworth 43:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:32 ... one plus one equals five. Like, that's what you're trying to get to, right?

Bruce Duckworth 43:35 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's, that's what you really, because a lot of, uh, people behind, hi- in particularly in those kind of meetings, hide behind, um, sort of standard words. You, you know, the difference between, you know, some brands, honestly, I mean, they all have the same values, they all have exactly the same values. And what you're desperately trying to do to make things look, you know, unmistakably visually, you need them to have an unmistakable difference in the first place to be able to communicate that. Um, and so you're desperately trying to uncover that. And sometimes it is literally you've- you've done the meeting and you thought, "Well, okay, we'll go with the best we've got here, but we-"

Chris Williamson 44:10 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 44:11 "... haven't really got the answer." You know, they haven't really opened up and it's kind of almost in the elevator down to reception that you, that they say-

Chris Williamson 44:18 Turn around and go back up, yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 44:19 ... "Well, they really answer is this." You know, and you go, "Well, why didn't you say that-"

Chris Williamson 44:21 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 44:21 "... in the first place?"

Chris Williamson 44:24 Uh, so I-

Bruce Duckworth 44:24 But you do need to get them in that level, you know?

Chris Williamson 44:26 Yes.

Bruce Duckworth 44:26 You need to get really deep.

Chris Williamson 44:27 I understand.

Bruce Duckworth 44:29 Really deep for them to understand.

Chris Williamson 44:29 Um, I played a game with Richard Shotton, a behavioral economist, uh, con- consumer behavior expert, and it was called What Words I Hate Most In Marketing. And I wondered if you've got what words you hate most in design. So you're sitting down with a client, so for instance, I could give you one from, um, events, which is energy. "It just needs to look like it's got energy." You know, it's like, "It's a club night, like, of course-"

Bruce Duckworth 44:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 44:56 "... it's got energy in it. I, it needs to..." Oh, here's another one, here's another one for you. Studenty. "Looks good, but could be a bit more studenty." What do you mean? Like, I, I, I see myself writing these briefs and going, "I hate me." Like, I would-

Bruce Duckworth 45:11 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:11 If I was Johnny, my designer, I would hate me. But somehow he's just got the patience of an absolute saint, which I'm presuming a lot of graphic designers must have to develop.

Bruce Duckworth 45:21 Yeah, I think so. I think so.

Chris Williamson 45:22 Um-

Bruce Duckworth 45:23 I sort of... And, and also a, um, a, an un- an un- unwavering optimism-

Chris Williamson 45:27 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 45:27 ... that there could be something great here. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:29 Yeah. So this is the 20th email where the client sent me just pure shit.

Bruce Duckworth 45:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:34 But this time it might be good.

Bruce Duckworth 45:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:37 So are there any, are there any terms that you would, if you were, um, president of global graphic design, are there any words that would be outlawed or would be banned?

Bruce Duckworth 45:51 Uh, brainstorm.

Chris Williamson 45:53 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 45:54 Let's do a brainstorm. And the reason, it's like, you know, you do a workshop to think of ideas and, and nothing ever come, good comes out of them. Nothing ever. Like, as soon as I hear that word, you're gonna run a brainstorm, we're gonna have a brainstorm with a client, everyone's gonna get involved, nothing good comes out of them. You know? (laughs) It really doesn't. And so that is a word that I would just... Well, I'd just like to, from creative point of view, thinking of ideas, you know, you need to have thought of an idea and then go for a walk around the park or travel on the bus. And then when you finish that, come back and wake up in the morning and go, "Is it still a good idea now?" Probably not. You know, we now need to think of another one. Like, they don't happen with 25 people in a room all collaborating and throwing ideas at... They just never happen. Everyone comes away from them thinking, "That was great. We all had such a great creative time," but we produced nothing from them.

Chris Williamson 46:48 No.

Bruce Duckworth 46:48 I think they're completely overrated.

Chris Williamson 46:51 You have a proxy for creativity, don't you? Which is actually that the creativity is being masked under volume and-

Bruce Duckworth 46:59 Yes.

Chris Williamson 47:00 ... just kind of, uh, velocity of, of, of it's a this and it's a this and it's a this. It's like put-

Bruce Duckworth 47:05 Yes.

Chris Williamson 47:05 ... 25 people in a room talking about anything and they'll say a lot of words.

Bruce Duckworth 47:09 Yeah, yeah. And nothing, I don't think I've ever seen anything good come out. I mean, I've seen, you know, good connections with people come out of them, but not actually any good ideas. But, but actually going back to that word studenty, I sometimes think studenty, and people say that, you know, "That idea is a bit studenty." Um, and what they mean is it's a bit naive. But actually, sometimes I think that actually a student idea is pure. You know, it's sort of, uh, it's, it hasn't had the effects of 30 years in the design business, um, you know, lavished upon it. So actually sometimes the student idea can be the best idea.

Chris Williamson 47:42 Unencumbered, yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 47:43 So I actually quite like... Studenty to me is actually, these days, I think it's quite a, it's- it's quite a good thing.

Chris Williamson 47:49 I get it. I think what, what we mean when we say student is more bottles of VK and, um-

Bruce Duckworth 47:55 (laughs) Yes.

Chris Williamson 47:56 ... girls, girls in denim shorts. I think that's kind of what we're urinating toward.

Bruce Duckworth 47:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:59 But I think from a design perspective, you're probably correct as well. So, um, again, I'm gonna ask you a, a challenging question. This might be like, again, I did this to Richard, choosing your favorite children, but do you have a top three designs, um, or it could just be some that come to mind, of all time? They could be your work, they could be other people's works. Um, just stuff that you love.

Bruce Duckworth 48:23 Yeah. Um, I mean, I, I love, um, logos. I love the FedEx logo. If you have a, had a good look at the FedEx logo, there's a-

Chris Williamson 48:30 Red and black?

Bruce Duckworth 48:31 Red, uh, it's- it's- it's sort of a purple and orange actually.

Chris Williamson 48:34 Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 48:34 You know?

Chris Williamson 48:35 Okay.

Bruce Duckworth 48:35 Um, and what it does in between the, the word fed and the word ex, I think it's between the E and the X-

Chris Williamson 48:41 Mm-hmm.

Bruce Duckworth 48:42 ... um, the negative space, um, is- is- is an arrow.

Chris Williamson 48:45 I'm looking at it now, looking at it now. Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 48:46 Can- can you see the little arrow in the negative space?

Chris Williamson 48:49 Yes, I can. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Bruce Duckworth 48:50 And, and I just think it's a, you know, it's a delivery company and that's a great... It's strong, it's bold, it's distinctive, it's unmistakable, and it's also-

Chris Williamson 48:58 I never noticed that.

Bruce Duckworth 48:58 ... got a little, fun little idea in it, which is this, in this negative space, um, is, is an arrow. Now, negative space is something which is the space in between objects. So when you go to art school, um, it's something that art students know about, um, when they, when- when you draw still life-... I remember somebody saying to, uh, one of my teachers saying, right, there's a jug and a glass of water. They said, now to get the proportion of the jug and the glass of water right when you draw it, if you draw the space in between, so don't draw the glass and then draw the, uh, the jug next to it. Draw the space in between. Look at the space in between then once- then that's what a negative space is, right? It's the space in between things. And that allows you to, um, get those two things in proportion to each other. And it's a technique that graphic designers use all the time. And so what you're seeing in that FedEx lo- logo is that I can see very quickly, first thing I look at is that arrow.

Chris Williamson 49:47 (laughs) It was-

Bruce Duckworth 49:48 I look for the negative space all the time. And it's a wonderful thing because it's a very, um, somebody said great design, great graphic design was, um, something that gives you a smile in your mind. Like when you see it, you go, "Oh God, that's great. I love that." And I think when, I think that every time I look at that, that FedEx logo, because I see the arrow and I think, "Oh, that's, that's pretty smart, that." And it's a case-

Chris Williamson 50:08 Well, I mean, it's so smart that it, it as a two-dimensional image has outsmarted me for the 32 years I've been on this planet.

Bruce Duckworth 50:15 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:15 You know?

Bruce Duckworth 50:15 But now, now that you know about it, you'll tell all your friends.

Chris Williamson 50:17 I can't not see it. You can't unsee- you cannot unsee that now.

Bruce Duckworth 50:21 Yeah. I mean, and people who, you know, had said that about our Amazon logo, you know, uh, the A to Z. "Did you know there was a sm-, you know, because there's A to Z." They went, "No, I had no idea." You know, and they've seen it-

Chris Williamson 50:32 I didn't notice an arrow. I didn't notice the arrow thing. I got the smile. I was like, "Oh, I- I got it. I g- I got it. There's a smile there." And it's like-

Bruce Duckworth 50:38 'Cause it-

Chris Williamson 50:38 ... it's so much more than you knew. Yeah.

Bruce Duckworth 50:41 Well, and th- I think that's what makes a good piece of design, is that, that the more you look at it, the better it gets. And that you don't wanna just give, um, everybody such an obvious thing that they get it immediately. I mean, it's like a, you know, great album cover. You know, the more you look at it, you know, the more you see, um, and that's what makes things great, I think, depth of thought and, you know, depth of craft.

Chris Williamson 51:05 Similarly as well, I suppose, you have to make it sufficiently v- visceral or obvious, for want of a better word. It has to emote very quickly. Um.

Bruce Duckworth 51:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:18 Richard, on the most recent episode, dropped this statistic. I think it's 98% of online content is looked at for less than a second.

Bruce Duckworth 51:28 Oh yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:29 So-

Bruce Duckworth 51:29 I can believe that.

Chris Williamson 51:30 ... you're talking about an unbelievably short amount of time. So you, you as a graphic designer, not only have to make something which is like this beautiful, timeless, legacy-inducing layers upon layers of brilliance, but also immediately gratifying and recognizable and all the rest of it. And I suppose-

Bruce Duckworth 51:47 Yep.

Chris Williamson 51:47 ... that's why you guys get paid the big bucks.

Bruce Duckworth 51:50 That's right. That's exactly right.

Chris Williamson 51:52 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 51:52 Because y- because you need to do both and it's not easy to do both.

Chris Williamson 51:54 Yeah, I bet it isn't. Uh, any other-

Bruce Duckworth 51:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:56 ... any other adverts or, or, uh, bits of packaging-

Bruce Duckworth 51:59 Um, um-

Chris Williamson 51:59 ... or stuff that you love that come to mind?

Bruce Duckworth 52:01 Uh, I mean, you know, you can't not love the, uh, the iconic Coca-Cola bottle, can you? Um, y- you, because it is, th- the curvature, you know, the, um-

Chris Williamson 52:10 Who did that, do you know?

Bruce Duckworth 52:11 ... the contour bottle. Um, now, I believe, I don't know actually who did it. I know that it was designed originally by mistake in that, um, which is probably why it's so unique. Um, it, somebody originally thought that Coca-Cola had cocoa beans in it and the bottle, uh, doesn't. Um, and the, the, the bottle originally, the top half of it, the most curvaceous stop that where the shoulders are, was in the shape of a, like, like a coco s- uh, um, a cocoa bean and that's why it's got this curvaceous shape. So that's where the very first bottle came from, which was a mistake.

Chris Williamson 52:46 Raymond, Raymond Loewe.

Bruce Duckworth 52:48 Oh, Raymond Loewe. Yeah, he didn't design it originally, but he, he, yeah, he, um, he, he sort of perfected it. Um, and one of his, uh, one of the ways that he was, um, allegedly said that it want- it wanted to be so distinctive that if you were to drop it and pick up a shard of that glass, you'd know it was from that shape.

Chris Williamson 53:07 Wow. How beautiful is that?

Bruce Duckworth 53:09 It's kind of great.

Chris Williamson 53:09 That's so cool. I love that, the fact that you could take it to pieces and still from one component part be able to work out what it was.

Bruce Duckworth 53:16 Yeah, because it's so distinctive, it's so unmistakable. Um, so that has to be probably the most iconic piece of packaging there is in the world, I would imagine. Um, and then I think I go into other areas. I think, you know, I love, um, I love all sorts of other design. You know, I love car design. I think that's a, it's, it's, it's a weird thing at the moment. Cars are a weird thing at the moment. They're not so, uh, popular, but the shape of a car and, uh, that has an enormous emotional, um, value and a technological value. And, and I think there's some, you know, and if, you know, and they, and these things are part of our lives. That's what I love th- about them so much. Um, all those pieces I've mentioned, the, the Coca-Cola bottle or the car design or whatever, you know, we use them every single day, you know. It's not some beautiful object that you stick on a shelf and you, you look at and say, "Isn't that a beautiful piece of design?" It's things you use every day. I think that's what I love about it. That's why I love working on sort of these huge brands because it's-

Chris Williamson 54:13 It's art. It's, it's your, it's your art in motion, isn't it?

Bruce Duckworth 54:16 Yeah, it is. It really is. Yeah. S- um, somebody, um, was talking to me about, um, when, um, uh, anth- anthropologists, when they, um, study ancient cultures, um, they look at the material culture, the things that were left behind by the culture and from those things that they dig up, you know, uh, archeologists dig up, they can tell the lifestyle of the, um, of that particular race of people. So they know the difference between Saxon and, you know, or/and Norman because of the design of the pieces that they find in the ground. They have no idea. They've never met anybody from those eras because they're all dead. Um, but they make deductions based on the material culture they leave behind. And I think that that's what we are sort of doing as designers at the moment. We are producing the material culture of our era. Um, and so in thousands of years' time, they can say, "Oh yeah, people, you know, they loved, you know, Apple design. They loved the curve and the s- those beautiful screens." And, you know, they, it says something about us. And, and I just think that that should be the most brilliantly designed stuff because it's part of our lives.

Chris Williamson 55:19 Bruce, I love it, man. The- the implications of having a serious approach to... A- a- and on the surface of it, it's not just about consumer behavior, 'cause it could quite easily be seen, as you say, not once today have you talked about conversions, or customer retention, or, um, you know, (clears throat) margins and things like that. Although, that's obviously gonna be a consideration, but that's not your consideration. What you're thinking about is- is something totally different to that.

Bruce Duckworth 55:47 Yeah. Uh, I mean, I'm thinking about, um... I'm- I'm thinking that if you- that if you had a- if you're trying to sell more... We've just done Special K, right? For Kellogg's, right?

Chris Williamson 55:56 Right.

Bruce Duckworth 55:56 And when you... Yeah. And it's- it looks different now, and I think it looks- it looks... So it's- it's a really good job. I really like what we've done. Um, you know, what I'm trying to do is- I know what they need to do, which is sell more Special K, right?

Chris Williamson 56:11 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 56:12 (laughs) And you can do that in a- in- in a- a very basic way. You know, you could do it in a very basic way, you could do it in a very mediocre way. But- but I don't think that you should do it in anything in a mediocre way. I mean, you could probably get more sales by, I don't know, making a picture of the bowl of the cereal look a bit better. You could do a little better things, you know, those kind of things.

Chris Williamson 56:34 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 56:34 But I think you should- you should look at that, um, design and you should transform it into something that is truly great piece of design. And of course, by doing that, it will get you more customer sales. I mean, we're all in it for the same thing. We still want to get people to buy more Special K. We want to do it in a way, um, that gives the- the client the design that will last a long time, um, and that is- is- stands out and is genuinely unmistakable. Um, because then there's so much value in that for the client. So much value. Uh, because then when he comes to redesign it again in five years time, um, you know, they can- that they can build on that and make it even more unmistakable. Um, and I- I think the big, sort of the enemy, everyone has to have an enemy, right, you're fighting against? And that is mediocrity. Average mediocrity has just got to be... You know, as soon as anybody does anything that you go, "Oh, God, that wasn't all that good," it's such a wasted opportunity. And, um, yeah, we don't want to do that.

Chris Williamson 57:40 There's a, um... I'm gonna rehash an idea that I've heard a number of times before, and you may have done as well. It's Rory Sutherland-ism about how people, especially in the advertising world, would much sooner fail at putting out a safe project than succeed at putting out something which is risky. Because if the risky choice ended up somehow not working, that is, the onus of that is completely on Bruce's head. He went out of his way to come up with this real left field, very unique offering. Whereas if you just follow the formula, and you're like, "Well, we- we- we followed the- we followed the sheet." Like, "It's just the same as the last 10 adverts, why didn't it work?" "Oh, it's okay, Bruce. Don't worry, mate. You know, sometimes these things just don't come off. We know that the formula works, we'll get them next time." And, um, I think it leads to a- a real homogenizing of- of the brands. And you've mentioned this with cars, like, I- I didn't think about it until now, but you're right. Like, I haven't been excited by a new car design in ages. Absolutely age... Except for Tesla, maybe, which I look at s- now, and I still think... Like, you see an X, especially the X, it's so big and so imposing.

Bruce Duckworth 58:48 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 58:48 And you're like, "Oh my God. Like, that's such a weird, cool, different sort of car," but it's very rare. So yeah, I think, um, people- people playing it safe, especially when you've got varying degrees of stakeholders involved, you know, your- your- your firm doesn't want to be the firm that fucked up Coca-Cola, and you know? Like it-

Bruce Duckworth 59:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:08 ... it's- it is, um, it's difficult balancing.

Bruce Duckworth 59:11 Yeah, yeah. It would be irresponsible to fuck up Coca-Cola, really (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 59:17 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 59:17 (laughs) I don't think we'd get many more projects if that happened.

Chris Williamson 59:20 Yeah. Uh, I don't think that you have either.

Bruce Duckworth 59:21 But- but y- you can't necessarily. Uh, there are clients who would love to go further than you think that they should go as well. You know, the opposite happens. You think that creative people always want to push clients. But actually, clients sometimes always want to push designers as well. Um, and you know, we've had a- I had a- a spectacular failure, um, which I'm happy to tell you about (laughs) .

Chris Williamson 59:42 Yes, we- I want to know. I wanna know.

Bruce Duckworth 59:43 Yeah. So there's a lot to learn from it, actually. So, um, we- we designed- uh, redesigned, uh, Mr. Kipling cakes, maybe, uh, this is quite a few years ago now. Um, and it was at the time when, uh, Nigella Lawson was making cupcakes (laughs) , and everybody was into home baking, and it- Mr. Kipling were going to relaunch as that kind of a brand. So they were going to not be... The- the- the- 'cause they- they're sort of charming for what they are, which is a sort of, you know, everyday, you know, in plastic baked good, and everybody knows what they're like. So there-

Chris Williamson 1:00:16 They're the sweet

Bruce Duckworth 1:00:16 ... and Bessies, aren't they? Yes (laughs) . Yes, sort of, uh, yes, you're right. Um, but there was a lot of, um, uh, emphasis on making it much more of a home baked type product. And so we did this packaging that looked absolutely spectacular, and looked just like a home baked, uh, Mr. Kipling would. You know, it was all... It was beautiful photography, it- it looked fantastic. And Nigella Lawson would've been proud of it. And then, about, uh, six weeks before everything was due to launch, um, the factory had just, um, found it very difficult to replicate the actual products, the change of product, um, to look as good as the actual homemade product that we had photographed. And so they said, "Actually, what we're gonna do, is we're gonna launch with the old cakes and the new packaging," because the packaging, loved it, so I think everybody who saw it in consumer research absolutely loved it, and said, "We would just buy so much more if we- if it looked like that." And- and that was a- a classic. So many le- so many lessons you can learn from that. So they launched it with the new packaging and the old product.... and, of course, everyone bought it. It... Spike in sales went through the roof. And then, everyone opened it up and it was exactly the same as it was-

Chris Williamson 1:01:26 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 1:01:26 ... and there wasn't anything like what was on the outside.

Chris Williamson 1:01:28 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 1:01:28 So, the sort of... You have to be truthful in, in everything that you do. And, and although they wanted to move into, into a new area and be really exciting, which would have been great had they been able to produce the product, um, you know, there's a real lesson that you can't... You know, you can't pretend to be something that you're not, you know? You do have to just be truthful. Um, and what they should have done was just stalled the relaunch and got the product right and then launched the two together. That's what should have happened, but it didn't. And, um, yeah, that's a lesson. Uh, we have had many failures, but that's, uh, fairly spectacular.

Chris Williamson 1:02:04 I can't believe that you've been, uh, flummoxed by baking. Like you've done-

Bruce Duckworth 1:02:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:10 ... you've got everything right, and then some fella somewhere in the factory put too much butter in and now you've got to... Your design's knackered. I can't-

Bruce Duckworth 1:02:18 Well, it doesn't work. Y- Y- Because what you're trying to do is be unmistakable in what you're trying to visualize, but you're also trying to get the truth of what the product is out to people so that they're under no illusion. Uh, you know, it has to be honest and truthful and decent and, and exciting to look at, and, you know, and lying doesn't work.

Chris Williamson 1:02:39 But that integration now, I think, and, and integrity and, and having virtue as a brand from top to bottom, from packaging to product to pricing to, uh, company ethos, to all of that stuff, especially now with always-on 24/7 communication, which is seamless and happens across the globe, there's no room to pull the wool over customers' eyes anymore.

Bruce Duckworth 1:02:59 Correct.

Chris Williamson 1:02:59 You can't be the psychopath, the traveling psychopath that used to take advantage of every town and then, "Oh, well, I'm done there now. Like, let's snake oil salesman my way to the next one." Like, there isn't... There's none of that anymore. You see brands... You see people say sentences. Milo Yiannopoulos. I was reminiscing about Milo Yiannopoulos' fall from grace. Like, it... One sentence on one podcast, and that's-

Bruce Duckworth 1:03:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:03:21 ... him gone from the entire public sphere. Done. And you're like, "Oh, my God." Sargon of Akkad, his entire Patreon gone, one sentence in some bizarre corner of the, the internet, you know? All of these different people. And the same is true for bra... Even, even more so for brands. Leverage through the roof, right?

Bruce Duckworth 1:03:38 Yeah. And actually, now is an interesting time for brands. I mean, because, you know, uh, I was noticing in my, um, on my, uh, essential trip to, uh, the supermarket earlier, the empty shelves. And I was thinking how interesting it was that all of the kind of funky new, uh, brands that are out there were actually on the shelf still, but the kind of older, more trusted, uh, safe brands had all sold out. You know, um, you know, the, the, the disinfectant that isn't organic and just destroys everything-

Chris Williamson 1:04:12 (laughs)

Bruce Duckworth 1:04:12 ... had sold out, you know? Uh-

Chris Williamson 1:04:14 Mr. Muscle is never gonna struggle during a pandemic, is he?

Bruce Duckworth 1:04:18 (laughs) Absolutely.

Chris Williamson 1:04:18 Mr. Muscle, with Mr. Kipling and Aunt Bessie are absolutely loving-

Bruce Duckworth 1:04:23 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:23 ... it at the moment. They're all having a party around... They're not doing social distancing. They're shaking hands.

Bruce Duckworth 1:04:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:04:27 Yeah. It's, um... I, I couldn't agree more.

Bruce Duckworth 1:04:29 See how they- h- how they're behaving. And you see, you know, Louis Vuitton producing... Yeah, and a number of others now following the same suit, producing, um, you know, some kind of hand wipes or whatever, or, you know, some kind of disinfectant-type products. And you think, that's a, that's a really good bit of, um, you know, branding for them. You know, people will remember them as being, you know, um, a company that reacted fast, you know. Someone l- like, um, you know, Louis Vuitton, you think is so, sort of, so out of reach of most people, but I think the decisions they've made as a brand, uh, in... at this moment are, are fantastic. Um...

Chris Williamson 1:05:06 They are. I wonder... I brought this up again-

Bruce Duckworth 1:05:08 You wouldn't remember it.

Chris Williamson 1:05:08 ... recently, but I wonder how many brands are weaponizing goodwill at the moment. I think they are. I think a lot of them are doing something that is, that is virtue signaling for the sake of it because they think someone in a meeting somewhere... And maybe this is just my skepticism about brands that have turned a corner. And again, what that words imply, either it... One of two things can be correct. Either the brands are, um, weaponizing goodwill and they're using it to, uh, further their, uh, brand equity that they can then monetize in the future, or their marketing communication in advance of that wasn't sufficiently effective to make me believe that they were the sort of company that would do this off their own back.

Bruce Duckworth 1:05:49 Exactly. Exactly. It's actually poor marketing, probably. And y- And the ones that jump on the bandwagon, you can see them all jumping on the bandwagon now. You know, I think it'll have little effect on... Uh, I think, you know, your skepticism is shared by most consumers. You know, they all go, "Really?" You know, "Really?"

Chris Williamson 1:06:07 Well, you know what they should do? Get Turner Duckworth involved. Get-

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:10 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:10 ... Turner Duckworth involved. Just, just-

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:12 That has been the an- that is the answer to so many people's problems.

Chris Williamson 1:06:14 I agree. So-

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:15 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:16 ... link will be in show notes below, of course.

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:17 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:06:18 Look, Bruce-

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:18 Of course.

Chris Williamson 1:06:18 ... today's been, today's been fantastic. Thank you so much. I-

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:21 Oh, I-

Chris Williamson 1:06:22 ... really loved it.

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:22 ... I've really enjoyed, really enjoyed chatting and, and I just think, you know, let's, uh, let's design everything beautifully. Let's have a wonderfully designed planet, you know, and the, the world would be better for it.

Chris Williamson 1:06:34 That's amazing. Um, if people want to check out what it is that you guys do, where should they go?

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:39 Um, go to turnurduckworth.com, and everything is on there. Not everything is on there, but there's about ten projects on there. And, um... Yeah, and... But just look on the internet. There's plenty out there.

Chris Williamson 1:06:49 Awesome. Bruce, thank you so much for your time. It's been great.

Bruce Duckworth 1:06:52 Been a pleasure.

Chris Williamson 1:06:58 Uh, yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, yeah. Uh, yeah, uh, yeah.