Modern WisdomDesigning The World's Biggest Brands | Bruce Duckworth | Modern Wisdom Podcast 167
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,729 words- 0:00 – 4:39
The Amazon “smile” logo origin story and scale of exposure
- CWChris Williamson
... did you come up with the Amazon box smile design?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
How many people do you think have seen that?
- BDBruce Duckworth
"How many people?" is, is an interesting question. I think that somebody had worked it out that just the logo printed on packaging, had been printed on packaging about 100 billion times.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, and I've just never... You know, that's just extraordinary, isn't it?
- CWChris Williamson
Jeff Bezos said, "Anyone who doesn't like this logo doesn't like puppies."
- BDBruce Duckworth
That, that's exactly what he said. I mean, it was a response by somebody-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Bruce, so good to speak to you. How are you?
- BDBruce Duckworth
I mean, I'm very well. I'm very well. The, the, the sun is shining in West Dorset, so I'm very happy. Very happy right now.
- CWChris Williamson
I know, uh, for the people that are only listening, you're gonna have to imagine, but I've got some color in me somehow today. I've spent couple of hours in the garden reading and, and prepping for this podcast, and somehow managed to get some color in me. Uh, I know it might not come across on the... It'll be Dean, it'll be video guy Dean filtering it out, that's the only reason that you can't see it.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, first, first things first, did you come up with the Amazon box smile design?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yes. So that-
- CWChris Williamson
How many, how many people do you think have seen that? E- everyone that's listening, think about the last Amazon parcel you got, it was probably this morning. The fact that underneath Amazon, there's a little smiley face, but it didn't-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... used to be like that apparently. I went on your website, didn't used to be like that, used to be the other way-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... like a frow- like a frowny face. That told us-
- BDBruce Duckworth
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
T- tell us about that.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah, so that's, um... "How many people?" is, is an interesting, um, question. I think that somebody had worked it out that just the logo printed on packaging, had been printed on packaging about 100 billion times.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, and I've just never... You know, that's just extraordinary, isn't it? That's just packaging. That's let alone, not on side of airplanes or lorries, or-
- CWChris Williamson
Gift cards.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... on websites which-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... of course, and gift cards, all the rest of it. So that's just an extraordinary thing, isn't it? When you, when you design something and you're responsible for drawing it, and then it's repeated so many hundreds of billions of times, it's just unbelievable, isn't it?
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
I suppose we didn't think it was ever gonna be as big as that, obviously, you know. I mean, who could have imagined? I- I'm sure even Jeff Bezos didn't realize it was quite as big as he's got now. Um, it was... I think it was about 20 years ago, um, Amazon were, um, they, th- they were the, the biggest bookseller, uh, online bookseller, if you remember, and that's all they did, just bookselling. And, um, and they... It was, uh, the... We, we had, uh, an office in San Francisco and, um, we were working on a lot of .com boom and the subsequent bust, um, kind of companies around the kind of '98 type, um, time. And, um, and, and Amazon, uh, wanted to change their business model from being just a- an online bookseller to sell everything on the internet. And so, um, the meeting, uh, with Jeff Bezos was we need to, um... The brief from him was, "We need to tell everybody, um, that we're now selling everything on the internet, uh, not just books. And we also need to tell everybody that we are the most consumer-friendly. We want to be the most consumer-friendly, um, company on the internet." Because at the time, although that seems like everybody does that now, at the time, that was quite a big deal. Um, and so those are the two things we had to communicate. And, uh, you know, logo design is about communication. And so you have to try and find a unique thing that is to do with their name, um, and what they're trying to communicate. So, um, Amazon, we were lucky or we looked hard, I guess, um, there's an A and a Z in Amazon, if you think of the name. And so it's, um... So an arrow that went from A to Z means everything, right? So we thought if we could, um, link the A to the Z, uh, with a smile, which was a sort of, you know, looks a bit like an arrow, but is also a smile, it goes from A to Z and it's sort of consumer-friendly. Um, which is a sort of, you know, that's, uh, you know, that's the answer, right, to the, to the brief. ... as it turned out, the logo before had a sort of an underline, which was a sort of like an, like a sort of frown smile, like an upside-down smile. So actually just by inverting that and adding the arrowhead to the end, we managed to move it, sort of manipulate it from being one look of a logo, um, into the new logo with meaning. And that, and I think that sort of, uh, has, has done us well. I mean, wherever I go in the world, (laughs) there is a piece of my work on someone's desk somewhere.
- 4:39 – 6:15
Working with Jeff Bezos: decision-making, testing, and brand personality
- CWChris Williamson
Am I right in saying Jeff Bezos said, "Anyone who doesn't like this logo doesn't like puppies."
- BDBruce Duckworth
That, that's exactly what he said. I mean, it was a response-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
... of somebody, somebody on, in his team. You know, you had these... There weren't that many people, um, uh, in his team. It was very kind of, you know, talk to the main man and the, the key people. But there was somebody in consumer insights who said, "Shouldn't we at least test this with consumers?" And he was like, "Really? If you don't like smiles, you don't like puppies." And so, yes, that, that is a true... And anyway, and actually-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
... there's sort of... You know, you try and capture a little bit of the personality of, um, the company in the logo. So obviously, it's just a symbol, it can't do everything. Um, but actually, he had, uh, Jeff Bezos has a very sort of guffawing laugh. And somehow when I see that smile, it reminds me of him.
- CWChris Williamson
Jeff Bezos encapsulated in type and-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... in type and, and...
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yes. But it is amazing when you, you know... And, and I think that's part of the, the joy of graphic design, you know. And, and what I love so much about design is that, that, you know, when you do create something, um, which has, um, y- you know, something good about it, that, that literally billions of people could see it, you know. Um, it's not a one-off. It's, um, it's designed to be published many, many, many times.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a legacy, right? Yeah, it really is very transcendent. Um, I mean, hearing the richest man on the planet behind probably the single most popular-... cons- uh, consumer company on the planet, likening the logo that you made to puppies. There's not many higher accolades that you can get than that, right?
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, where do you go from there?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah, exactly. Is there anything better than a puppy?
- 6:15 – 8:12
What Turner Duckworth actually does: visual identity through packaging
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, no, they- that's it. I challenge anyone listening to tell us anything that's better than a puppy. So we, we've kind of skated around it. What- what do you do? What is Turner Duckworth?
- BDBruce Duckworth
So, um, uh, Turner Duckworth, we- we're graphic designers. Um, we design, um, logos and, uh, the packaging and the visual identity for brands. So, um, how would you know things that we've done? If you walk into any supermarket, um, and you pick up a piece of packaging, somebody has designed that packaging. Um, and what I mean by that is they design the logo, the colors, the, uh, typography, the illustration, the photography, has all been created by somebody like me. Um, and- and- and so that's what we do. We create the look, the visual identity of a brand. And the way that sort of starts is often on packaging design because that is the one piece that everybody gets to see. Um, and has to... you- it's really the closest thing you get to the product itself. So, for example, we redesigned, um, everything for Coca-Cola, um, about s- ten years ago probably now. Um, and when you think about a bottle of Coca-Cola, you know, the- the closest you come to the liquid itself is the packaging. I mean, it has to... And- and it becomes something that every-
- CWChris Williamson
Until it's inside you, yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... till it's... Yes, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, or... Yes, exactly. So the packaging becomes a truly, sort of truly iconic thing. Um, and- and, yeah, so that's what- what we've designed for all sorts of different people. And I have a company that is... uh, has about 120 people. Um, and th- about 80 of those are other graphic designers. Um, and the rest are support team that make all of that work.
- CWChris Williamson
Wow. That's so cool. Were you guys anything to do with the names on the Coke cans? Was that part of your...
- BDBruce Duckworth
Uh, no. Yeah, you had to bring that up, didn't you? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Sorry, bruise. Ugh, awkward.
- BDBruce Duckworth
It was around about the same time. Um, but no, that was done, um, by an Australian, um, team, uh, in, um, at Coca-Cola. Um, so-
- CWChris Williamson
The designs look lovely anyway, even the ones without the names on, they look lovely as well.
- 8:12 – 12:16
Coca-Cola redesign: modernizing without breaking a 125-year icon
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) . Well, it's- it's a sort of interesting, um, you know, when you have a company... You know, we started by working for lots of little, tiny little brands. Um, so, you know, uh, w- wouldn't be unusual to have seen our, uh, work for startups. So for example, Innocent Smoothies, when they first started, we did the original bottle, the shape of the bottle design. Um, and that would have been, um, a typical kind of client of ours, um, back in the day. And then as we got, uh, more successful and the bigger guys come- came to see us, and ultimately the biggest brand in the world, um, was- was Coca-Cola, consumer brand. And, uh, and so to design that was, um, an- an- an amazing thing. But, uh, y- of course what they loved about our work, which is the reason that we got the job in the first place, was that we were able to, um, get across a kind of interesting, um, looking, uh, design across all different sort of touch points, which is every time you sort of see or touch the brand, um, for small companies. And they wanted to do the same, um, for a big company like Coca-Cola, which can... Uh, Coca-Cola and those kind of companies can come across as the kind of enormous corporate giants. And who wants to, you know, to, you know, have any kind of consumer relationship with those kind of companies? They seem, um, austere, and, you know, like a big system. Um, and so, you know, although we designed the packaging to start with, then we design everything else in the way and guidelines for the way everything looks. And our- and our idea with Coca-Cola was to stop it looking just like a big corporate giant, but to give it some kind of friendliness and, um, you know, humanity, like there are actual humans (laughs) in the Coca-Cola company-
- CWChris Williamson
There must be some.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... rather, uh, yes. Yeah, there are. I'm sure there are. The- well, I know there are. Um, rather than just a sort of big old corporate giant.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, bizarrely, with the small company, you already have that brand communication just naturally. You know the size of the company. Everyone knows that Coca-Cola is big. So it makes sense that oddly, from a signaling perspective, the small company wants to potentially look more corporate because it signals that they have gravitas and they're established within the market. And then you get to the point where you have gravitas and are established within the market, and you're desperately trying to look like John down the road who's just-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... s- started his little company.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. I mean, it's exactly- that's exactly true. There's a- there must be a sweet spot for the type of brand at the right- exactly the right moment. Uh, and, but, you know, when you've got a brand that's 125 years old like Coca-Cola, it's constantly reinventing itself.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, yeah. So exactly- that's exactly the- the... And, uh, you know, and the, I guess consumers are also looking for new things. Um, and, you know, they don't want to just be buying the same old stuff all the time. And certainly, if a brand like Coca-Cola starts to look old-fashioned, it's been around for a long time, you know, you- you- you can see sales drift off.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, so- so what we do is, um, you know, keep them up-to-date. You know, people say to me, "What? Do you really des- you didn't really- can't really have designed the Coca-Cola logo because that's been around for 125 years," which is true. Um, in- interestingly, that, uh, that Coca-Cola script-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... it's called the Spencerian script, was actually, um, was taken from... The or- the original of that was actually taken from the handwriting of the accountant of Coca-Cola-
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... who had the... You know, accountants back in the day when you had those big ledgers had the most amazing calligraphic scripts. Um, and so yeah, that- that's where it originally came from. And- and over the years, that has been slightly tweaked and slightly tweaked to make a little bit more legible and a little bit more beautiful. Um, and- and although consumers and consumers and customers and people you've... I mean, I don't know. I don't really like the term consumers, but that's what they... well, that's what we all are, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, you don't notice the difference necessarily all the time. Um, but it stops the brand. What we do stops that kind of brand becoming old-fashioned.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It must be- it must be a challenge. There's so many doorways that I could go down here. It's like, f- I- I finally get to speak to Santa Claus and ask him how all of the toys are made. This is kind of how it- how it feels a little bit.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Um, but, uh-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Well, I'll tell you if you ask the right question. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I'm try- I'm desperately trying, uh, I promise.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- 12:16 – 19:20
How much “refresh” is too much? Risk, caution, and precision in big brands
- CWChris Williamson
... it's certainly one thing that I think there is, um, uh, reinventing brands that don't need to be done. This goes out to my business partner, Darren, who insists every year on us updating the artwork for our club nights, whether they're performing well or whether they're performing badly. And I'm like, "Man, there has to be a point." And the, the reason that I don't like it or that I have an aversion to it is that the market changes by exactly one-third or more every year because the students leave. I'm like, "Look, you know, at least one-third of the people see this as brand new artwork." And because we tend toward younger students in any case, I'm like, "The ones that were our market last year, they've already pissed off. They don't care." Um, but y- with the Coca-Cola thing, there could be, uh, a potential where you try and reinvent something that actually is fine. And I can imagine there'll be a lot of meetings where people sit around and say, "We need a new design. We need to inject some more, g- new- newness into this thing." And you're like, "Ah, maybe that's not quite right." I wonder how many brands overshoot on refreshing their look.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Well, I think yes. I, I, I think some do. Um, but, but they're actually more likely to not even try, not to go anywhere near overshooting because they're often so cautious. I mean, these are billion-dollar brands, you know. They really are selling an enormous amount of product, and they really don't want to get it wrong. Um, because there are sort of channels of, of promotion and, and, uh, communication, which people hardly ever see, or half your audience never see. But packaging is one of those things that everybody sees. Um, so it, it's an incredibly intense, um, uh, uh, process of getting exactly, exactly, exactly right, you know.
- CWChris Williamson
I could-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Exactly the right color red, exactly the... You know, all that kind of stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
I can only imagine how specific your guys have to be.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. Yeah. And, and you... And I think over the years, you know, you... I mean, I'm, I'm an art student. I mean, I, that's, that's what I've... You know, I started by drawing at school and things, and I, and you end up doing this. And, um, what I suppose we've done is we've become sort of enormous specialists in, um... We can... Y- you know, the, the skill we have of choosing the right typefaces, choosing the right colors, the right, uh, the way the lettering is drawn, illustration, photography, all that kind of thing. It... Y- I can make things these days, if, if you say, I want it to be a little bit, look a little bit more classy, I know exactly what to do.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
But I want to make it a little bit less than, I know exactly what to do.
- CWChris Williamson
You are a dream ... because it's like a... You know, it's like a kind of, um-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Mixing desk.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like a mixing desk, right?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you just pull things up and push things down. And because we have a... All graphic designers have this sort of, you know, we see in p-... You know, we see in... We would... You know, we're not in words or numbers like some of your guests have been, uh, but we see... We, we just work in pictures the whole time. Um, yeah, yeah. In, in my mind, I sometimes feel like I... You know, I can remember so many visual things, um, and I can't remember the last thing I read even if I read it two minutes ago.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) Well-
- CWChris Williamson
But I can remember things I've seen.
- BDBruce Duckworth
When you have an, an-
- CWChris Williamson
That's my definition of retention in my mind.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah, yeah. When you guys are working at the... It's Premier League design level, right? Biggest companies in the world, most important projects in the world. You need someone who, um, in the nicest way possible has a, a freakish side to one particular domain of their competence, right? You need someone who literally can only see in pictures. Yeah. Can s-... Can take the word. And you've touched on that there. I, I want to get into a couple of things. One of them being entrepreneurs and how, how, um, we, me as a good example, can communicate with other versions of you, uh, more effectively. And they... You've touched on it there about that. "I want it just a little bit more sort of classy," or, "Can we have it a bit more kind of, you know, like edgy?" Yes. And what people do, what I'm trying to say is, I'm using a word, which is the closest proxy for an impression of something I want to see. And I just... Yes. That's so inefficient. Like, it's so many steps removed, you know. Yeah. But the fact... You guys being able to take that and then have the skills to deploy it. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's where-
- BDBruce Duckworth
I mean, I think the skill is, um, you know, particularly when you g- come to do things like a logo, for example. I mean, Amazon is just... It's only prints in one color. You can't... I mean, there's not... No- nothing you can do really with color particularly. Um, it's only got, you know, just a few letters. And how do you communicate all these things? Um, and so we spend a lot of time, um, uh, when we've got a design figuring out the st- the reason why that design is the correct design for the client. And so we would use a lot of the words they've used, the edgy, the classy, all those kind of words, um, and, and, and explain how that manifests itself as a visual. So if it's classy, what does classy mean visually? I mean, I know what it means... You know, in your head, is it the same as it is in my head? And so you could... What... Y- y- by going through every single kind of personality trait that they're trying to, um, communicate, you can, you can sort of narrow it all down graphically, um, to something that makes sense at the end. And you can s-... You can sort of see in a, in a typical presentation, in a good presentation-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... you can see clients kind of nodding along and nodding along, and you go, "So this is the answer," and they nod. (laughs) And then you go-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. Did it...
- BDBruce Duckworth
... "Thanks very much. That was great."
- CWChris Williamson
That's fantastic.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) "How did you do that?" So you often only show people, clients, um, uh, you know, probably a maximum of three solutions. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- BDBruce Duckworth
You know, because, um, actually it's much easier... Like it's much, much easier if I were to give my team designing a logo. Um, you know, they go off and, and they come back and show me the logos, um, that they've worked on for a few days, and there's maybe 50 logos there. Now I could take that to a client and I could say, "We've done 50 logos for you. Which one do you like?" But then actually, they're then put in a position where they're ha- they're becoming me, a creative director, because my job is to take but the best and only show the very best to the client, um, and hone them until they're perfect. Um, and, uh, and I think it's a kind of lazy...... to show more than three. In fact, the hardest thing would be to show them one solution, um, because then it would have to be absolutely spot on. It tends to be that you sh- have to show clients more than one because, um, th- the way they describe what they want has slight different nuances. So you have to just tease out from them which one they really mean.
- CWChris Williamson
This is a bit more classy. This is a bit more edgy.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) .
- 19:20 – 20:48
Sustainability pressure: why “frivolous” packaging no longer flies
- CWChris Williamson
I mean, if you want to put wings on a McNuggets box, can you do it? Like, can you just say, "Oh, we really think that the wings would look good."
- BDBruce Duckworth
Well-
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned about something having movement in it.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. (laughs) . Yeah, sure you can. I mean, it's, um, a- it- it's all possible, right? The, uh, y- you have to. I think consumers are very, um, you know, uh, they- they- they think long and hard these days, um, about, uh, recyclability and sustainability. And if the wings you put on a McNuggets box are completely frivolous and superfluous, (laughs) -
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- BDBruce Duckworth
... then they probably will think that's exact- that's ex- they- they're not stupid.
- CWChris Williamson
Dummy.
- BDBruce Duckworth
That- that's exactly what they'll think it is. (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Dummy. Yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Frivolous and super- superl- Uh, so I think, um, you know, we have to- we have to think like consumers. I mean, y- it s- in the last 10 years, our- our relationship with those kind of brands has changed because we do, particularly with food brands, uh, because of course, we deal with the aftermath of- of the product. You know, the packaging is litter and, you know, whether it's recyclable or it's not recyclable, you know, we have to deal with that much more than we used to. We used to just- used to just throw it in the bin and forget about it. And these days, we... yeah, we have to sort it out and we ha- and we're very aware of, um, what's good for the environment and bad. And so I think... and brands that are, you know, uh, excessive, you know, consumers don't like them, which is fair enough.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Okay. It's s- I find it so fascinating that you start with the packaging and then- and then work from there.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Hm. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I think it's so in- I think it's so interesting.
- 20:48 – 22:05
Packaging as the product: Levi’s and the idea of wearable branding
- BDBruce Duckworth
Because it's so close. It's so close, isn't it? So we designed, um, the- the visual identity for Levi Strauss, you know, the- the jeans, you know, and they're on the back of, um... an- and they have kind of packaging. You know, they have a logo on the... which is a little red tab that goes in, sewn into the back pocket. They have another logo that is, um, across the back- back pocket, which is two sort of curves. It's like a- almost like a seagull, a flying seagull, kind of in- in, uh, very simple terms, called the Arcuate, um, which has always been a trademark of theirs. And then they have that leather patch that you stick on the back of the jean. Um, all of those become their packaging. Now that... now, uh, the- the- the- the denim trousers without those elements are not Levi's.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, but with them, and the buttons as well, um, with them and all the trademarks that go around those, uh, that's a pair of Levi's. So the packaging is sort of absolutely essential to the product in a lot of cases.
- CWChris Williamson
I lo- I love-
- BDBruce Duckworth
And I think... Hm? Sorry, carry on.
- CWChris Williamson
I just... I love the- the way that you said about the- the packaging being the closest that you get to the product.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Especially with stuff that you consume. Like-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. And- and- and where, you know? I mean, uh, how... if you're... y- you know, the- the- the logos that you're wearing on your T-shirt, you know, that's- that's, you know, that's a- that's another form of branding and another form of packaging.
- 22:05 – 23:59
“Love the Unmistakable”: designing for peripheral recognition
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It is. What does, um, Love the Unmistakable mean?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, w- what you're trying to do is to, uh, all the time with every brand that we work on is find the thing that is truly unique about them and then communicate that in their packaging and their logos and everything else that- that we end up designing. Um, and unique is one thing. Um, and unique is, uh, we- we call that being... try and be unmistakable, um, and what we mean by that is that, uh, l- like I... y- you know, when I go on the Tube, um, and I go to the office, um, I- I don't take any notice of the adverts in the Tube, right? I don't... really don't. I've got my head down and I'm doing other things. Um, but as I go up the escalators, these adverts flick past from this corners of my eye, um, and they are... I am registering some kind of communication from them w- although I'm not looking directly at them. And I think that, uh, if a... if- if- if a- a visual identity, uh, the things that we do, if that's truly effective, even that little peripheral vision actually registers that that's the brand and because it is completely unmistakable, you know? Um, so there's- there's a good reason that Coca-Cola is red and- and Pepsi-Cola is blue, you know? I mean, they're very... (laughs) they're very different, right? And they're completely unmistakable. Um, and- and- and yeah, so that's what we're always striving for, is to be so unique that you're unmistakable.
- CWChris Williamson
You're right as well, it's, um... it does more of the work for you. Having a brand image which is unique and is unmistakable, it scales itself beyond the communication, right? You're right. You- you can just catch it out the corner of your eye. I know a McDonald's when I see a McDonald's, even if I'm looking and like-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... oh, 5% of my vision is able to see it. I'm like, "That's a McDonald's over there."
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. Yes, exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, you know? So with Starbucks, same with whatever.
- 23:59 – 30:17
The iPhone as a design inflection point: raising standards across industries
- BDBruce Duckworth
And that's that combination... It's exactly the combination of yellow and red that do that, you know? Those are design elements. Now, you know, uh, it- it's become very interesting in the last sort of 10... Exactly. In fact, it's almost exactly 10. It actually may even be nearly 11 years because, um, the- our design world was- was, uh, transformed when Apple produced the iPhone. Um, because Apple, which I've always sort of thought is a- a company where they've taken de- design principles to their absolute perfection. I think some... the- the products are beautifully designed, the user interface is beautifully designed, the, um... the r-... how they use their iconography of their Apple. You know, if you, if, if you were a, um, an alien and you landed on this planet and you saw an Apple store, you'd think we worshiped apples. I mean, b- it's that, it's that strong and that-
- CWChris Williamson
Chu- the Church of Apple, you are right.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... yes, yeah. And, um, and what the iPhone did was it, it made everybody, um, e- everybody, um, realize what good design was. Um, and it put the standard way higher than it was before. And particularly for these very large brands, and the kind of, the Coca-Colas, the McDonald's, um, who I think had fallen out of step with good design, um, and had spent all their money in other areas of communication. Um, w- they realized that then, and ce- certainly when we, when we did our work on Coca-Cola, that, you know, "We want to be as good as Apple are. We need to be as good as Apple because our consumers are, are seeing Apple every single... They're using this. It's in their hand, it's in their pocket. They're seeing it every single day." You know that beautiful box that ki- (laughs) that your Apple iPhone comes in? You know, those kind of, um, experiences are pure design experiences, and they communicate to the consumer about quality, that everything's been thought of, you know. And so, you know, by considering the design, if they feel like everything... Consumers think then that everything that Apple produces has been carefully considered, which it has. You know? A friend of mine works for Apple and said to me, "You know, we don't send an, an email to anybody unless it's been through the design department, because, you know, if we send one email to our Apple iPhone customers, that's how many hundreds of thousands of millions or whatever it is of people is that? You know, you get the design wrong there, um, and, and it kind of, the whole, the whole i- is, you know, everything-"
- CWChris Williamson
Adhesive, yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah, everything's so, so cohesive. And, um, so, so I'd like to personally thank Steve Jobs for (laughs) you know, for promoting design in a way that, um, other, other brands at that scale hadn't done. It used to be a much more elitist thing, you know, where, um, you know, good design was seen in opera, for posters for operas, and, you know, beautiful, you know, expensive luxury products and, and spirits and wines and that kind of thing. And now I think that the good design is actually much, much more, um, for everybody, which is a much better thing.
- CWChris Williamson
An inflection point of that was Apple releasing the iPhone. That's s-
- BDBruce Duckworth
It was.
- CWChris Williamson
... so incredible that a whole... You know, it's not as if what you're doing is new a- new media, you know? People have been designing stuff for ages.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Oh, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you can just-
- BDBruce Duckworth
I mean, you look at the, look at the great logos of our time, you know, the, the, probably the greatest logo is, I mean depends on your religion, but I mean the, you know, the Christian cross is a, is a logo. It's a representation of, uh, of the, of, of, of the Bible. Um, and, and, you know, and a, and a great, uh, n- not, not a great, um, um, example maybe, but, I mean, the, the swastika is also a fantastic piece of design, graphic design. I mean, it's a, based on a, I think the Him- the Hindu symbol for peace, I think, o- o- oddly enough. Um, and actually, y- you know, but it, it was this incredibly powerful, uh, piece of graphic design. Uh, not sure I believe exactly what the company stood for in that case.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, well you don't need to, do you? It can be, it can stand alone as it, as a, as a, a, a g- good piece of art.
- BDBruce Duckworth
As, as, as a good piece of design, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Um, I remember, I dunno whether the listeners will be able to, but I remember buying phones, like maybe like a Blackberry in 2008 type time, 2009. And I remember getting that out of the box. And it would be wrapped in cellophane, and there'd be like a huge piece of documentation that came with it, and a big warranty guide and all this other stuff. And you are right. Like, when you now purchase... Especially Apple are the elite minimalists when it comes to this stuff, right? Like, and you're, you're correct. Opening it is one of the most joyous experiences of using it, which is-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... again, very transcendent. Very, very interesting.
- BDBruce Duckworth
And, and really, you know, every point you touch a brand, who, whatever that brand is, should have the equivalent of that, should be as good in whatever worsh-... I mean, it's unlikely to be as expensive and as beautifully produced. But I remember we did something for Coca-Cola which was, um, they had these little, um... So, so we did the packaging and we did the... And all these, um, e- executions all over the world was being done by local agencies. Um, but one of these executions came back and it was, um, and w- uh, that they said, "Oh, we always, um, have a little drinks mat that goes w- when you're on an airplane."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- BDBruce Duckworth
"And you o- you order a drink, it comes, you know, Coca-Cola provide the little circular drink mat that goes on your, on, on your tray table." And, um, and, uh, and, you know, I mean, it's a tiny little thing, right? Uh, um, but they, and they said, "Oh," we, we said, "How many, how many do you produce of these?" And they said, "Oh, we have a... We d- we do roughly about half a billion of those." Because of course the scale, the amount of drinks you have (laughs) . So, it's like, if you don't design that properly, then you're missing out on the opportunity of, you know, half a billion pieces of good communication. You know what I mean? So these small tiny things can, should be treated with, you know, with care and attention.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I- is this integrated, cohesive, um, and unified movement, this, um, you know, unified front, like a, like a war, um, troops moving in battle type thing, they all go at the-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
... at the right time, at the right pace? I think (clears throat) -
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- 30:17 – 36:10
Briefs, meetings, and client communication: how to get to the real truth
- CWChris Williamson
... definitely seeing... And you are right. Like, I, I, I notice a change in the way that brands communicated pre-iPhone and post-iPhone, and it definitely does feel like that was a, an inflection point. There might be some people listening and thinking, "Well, this is, this is interesting from a consumer perspective. I don't really know how communicating with someone like yourself, a creative director or a des- graphic designer or whatever, is that interesting or that, that important for me, I suppose, in my, in my life." But w-... I challenge anyone to not have a problem with a graphic designer at some point in their life. Like, everybody, you've, you've got your mum's 50th coming up and you've got to make a Facebook cover photo, a b- banner for Facebook. Or your, your brother's started a dog grooming service, so you post, you post recommendations on, o- online saying, "Does anyone know any good local graphic designers?" And you get a million different things that come back. So I want to, um-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... I want to ask how, as a client, and also as a graphic designer, I know that our designer, Johnny, will be listening. Uh, shout out, Johnny, you're awesome. Um, and-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... um, a bunch of other graphic designers, creatives, and stuff like that. How can you ensure from both the graphic designer's perspective, and from the client's perspective, that the brief and the communication between the two is as smooth as possible, there's no superfluous stuff in there, it's as efficient but as thorough as it needs to be? Have you got some, some strategies of how you do that?
- BDBruce Duckworth
You, you mean between the client and the graphic designer?
- CWChris Williamson
Correct, yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah, yeah. Well, um, well, how does it become s- yeah, I mean, like, you know ... I think back in the, in the original kind of graphic designers who were originally ... okay, like, gra- graphic designing used to be called commercial artist, right? You know, um, that's what it was called before we were all called graphic designers. Um, and, and that kind of tells you a little bit about ... actually it's more descriptive what we do. You know, it is a sort of art, but it's, uh, for, for other people, right? It's the commercial part. We do it for money and we do it for other people. Um, and y- y- uh, there were always stories of how these kind of iconic, um, you know, spearheading graphic designers would stand on the windowsill of a 10-story building saying, "Buy my idea because it's so brilliant, and I'll throw myself off if you don't buy it. It's that good." We don't do that anymore. You know, we don't need to do that anymore, right? You know, um, and so I think the, uh, the, the communication is just it has to be, um ... see, what we're always looking, what as a graphic designer you're always looking for is that, you know, as, as I say, we think in pictures. So whatever you say to me that I need to translate into something that becomes, um, a piece of graphic design, I have to be able to put that into pictures, right? So you could, you could give me some words and say, "Bruce, I need it to be exactly like this," and you give me all these sort of quality, you know, high-end, um, uh, b- whatever it is. Um, but if I can't actually make it into a picture, you know, if I can't draw it, if I can't ... if it, if it just, some things you just can't draw because it's a feeling and it's an emotion, you just can't do it. Um, and so I think the communication has to be like the designer has to speak to the client and explain that kind of thing to them, so that whatever they say, they could give them a 200-page marketing report and say, "Now I need a logo. Can you do it from that?" And you say, "Well, there's no way I can condense all of that into a logo. You've only got one color and four letters," or whatever it is.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) .
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, there's no way that can happen. Um, so I need to, um, I, I need to tease out that conversation between the client and the, and the designer has to be teasing out of the really, really important bits of information. What do you really want to say? You know, what do you really want to communicate? Um, and then when you've all agreed that that's the right thing, then go away and work at it, and then come back with solutions that really do answer those four or five words, whatever it is, um, that has to ... and so there's no room for, um, getting it wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Should you always do your first briefing in person?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Oh, always, yeah. Because you, because how do you know, um, Jeff Bezos has got a guffawing laugh if you've never met him? Why do you know that that smile is right for him? You know, I mean, you know, that's not the reason we did it, but it nevertheless is part of the personality of the company. Um, so absolutely. You know, there's a a- all ... when you have a new designer, um, for example, a beer, like a brand of beer, you know, and you design a new beer, where if you go to the brewery, there's always, uh, you'll see things in the br- uh, w- despite what the client will t- talk to you about, you know, you'll, you'll also be observing all these different things, the way they brewed the beer, the way the hops come in, the way, you know, the shape of the whatever it is, the, the, the stills or the f-
- CWChris Williamson
The type of people that are brewing there, or the pigeons that rest on the things outside-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Exactly, and there's always, um-
- CWChris Williamson
... and all that. Yeah.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... and there'll be a weathervane on top of the brewery, and you'll go, "Oh, that's interesting." You know? Or the brewery gates will have a bit of, uh, curly metal that'll inspire you. So yeah, you have to really immerse yourself in it and see them-
- CWChris Williamson
I love that. Uh, I think that's very, a very, um, sort of holistic, artistic, all-encompassing view. I think that's a really cool way to do it. And I, I guess as well the implication is as a client if you have an agenda and if you're desperate for your designer to not come up with something, you're gonna have to strap blinkers to the sides of their eyes-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... so that they walk through the brewery or w- what are your particular premises and don't ... no, don't look at the pigeon over there. That weathervane is not for you-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
... and this isn't a thing and blah, blah, blah. Don't look at the gates.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah, maybe. Maybe. Um, I, I think that there's, uh, you know, some clients will definitely make a mistake of saying, "This is what I want. Now can you go away and do it?" And really what you're d- trying to say is, "This is what I need to communicate. How best would you bring it to life?"
- 36:10 – 59:21
Commercializing creativity: pricing, value, and not undercharging
- CWChris Williamson
I like that. I like that a lot. So one of the things that we touched on before we started, which I think is a really fascinating topic, is how creatives can commercialize their ability. Now, I know, uh, one of the guys that works for us at the moment, Ben, who will also be listening, fine art student in his final year of his master's at Newcastle University, just did an amazing display which unfortunately he never actually got to do because, uh, coronavirus kind of killed that. But unbelievable, like phenomenal stuff that he did. Um, how can he as a fine art student, someone who's good at drawing, someone who's got an interest in graphic design, or anyone else that's listening who has a passion like you had-... how do they go from just being considered to be the guy that gets watercolor, or the- the girl that gets watercolors out in a conservatory three times a year when she's bored, to someone that can actually, you know, make a living out of it? How do you-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... how do you make that jump?
- BDBruce Duckworth
Well, I think, you know, in- in terms of graphic design, and- and I can't, I- I don't really know how you do it with fine art. Um, I mean, obviously there are, you know, there are some amazingly successful and rich and, you know, fantastic artists that, fine artists. But in graphic design world, you know, what we do is, is we do work for, someone's got a problem, a commercial, usually a commercial problem, um, or an opportunity that they need a graphic designer to help them with i- in order to make them more successful. And so what we do is provide part of the solution that makes them more successful. So we do have a value. What we produce actually has a value, you know. Um, you know, that Amazon, I- I wish I'd, just thinking about it now, I wish we had charged for the amount of times it had been used.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I was-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Rather than per view.
- CWChris Williamson
... that was what I was thinking. If you'd got it per impression-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you could have charged, you could have charged an unbelievably low price.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yes, yes, exactly. Yes, I should have. Yeah, we should have done that. That's a, that would have been a great, uh, 20/20, um, hindsight there.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, God.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, but no, what we do is we do things that, that improve people's businesses and there is a, there's a genuine commercial benefit in us getting it right. So therefore, um, you know, w- we get paid for doing it and the higher up you get in the kind of, um, in, you know, if you're the best in the world at it, you'll get, should get paid the best in the world for doing it. Um, and so you can. You know, I think what's, what- what's amazing, because you're absolutely right, you know, I started off as, um, just being good at art at school, um, and then went to art college. And so what future is there for that? You know, um...
- CWChris Williamson
I feel like I know loads of people that were just good, like my mom was just good at art, but she's not-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... she- she's not running-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... Amazon's new logo campaign.
- BDBruce Duckworth
No, no, no, that's right. So, um, you know, it's just, you just have to do something where there is a- a, there is a proper financial benefit to a client for using you. You know, if you get it done properly and you get it done well, I mean, you know, we did that Amazon logo 20 something years ago, you know, and- and it's still being used. That's, that wasn't, I mean, it was expensive at the time. I'm sure someone said it was too expensive at the time, but now looking back on it, it was cheap. You know, that's because it hasn't-
- CWChris Williamson
Jeff Bezos, driving that price down, getting himself a good deal.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. Yeah. And- and also I think that, uh, something to be very aware of as a designer is that often it is your, um, you know, um, some people think being a designer is a kind of gift, but it's also kind of a curse at the same time because you can draw things and visualize things and you think in a different way to, um, a lot of other people in business. Um, but also you can't kind of turn that off either. So, um, you know, wherever you go, you'll look at your friend's house and say, "Oh wow, look who painted it that well."
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
Um, but also it's sometimes they're prepared to do the work for- for not much money, um, because they just want to do it, because it's just, that's just what they just need to be producing.
- CWChris Williamson
It's in- it's in them.
- BDBruce Duckworth
In them. Um, and so, um, and you have to be very careful of that because what we do is produce something that is, does- does have a commercial value and a benefit. And so you need to charge the right amount of money for it. And so in my business, we have, um, people who talk to the clients about money, which is, who is not me. So I can be as enthusiastic and love, from a pure design point of view, love the opportunity that's about to present itself and truly, genuinely love it. And then, and then I leave the room and they go, "Bruce, you need to go now. And we need to talk about money."
- CWChris Williamson
The- the parents are talking now type thing.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Exactly. Yeah. Somebody else needs to talk about the money, um, who isn't the person who is going to be creating the design, because I think that then there's a, it's just such a conflict because you're so desperate to do the opportunity. Um, but, you know, I remember years and years ago, my, um, there was a recession, probably middle of the '90s sometime and, 1990s, and, uh, we were working for Schweppes, the- the, um, soft drink company. And they had decided that they needed to pitch out, um, the design for a new soft drink they were producing. And, um, they had a maximum, um, fee that was going to be 5,000 pounds to pitch, because we would never do, we'd never do any free pitching. We always get paid for it in our, in our industry. Um, and, and I said to my dad, I said, "You know, we just started this business." And I said, "I don't know if I can do that." I said, "I know it costs me 8,000 pounds to do the work and, uh, and- and they're only going to pay me 5,000. The other agencies have said they'll do it for 5,000. Um, but I don't think we can do that." And- and he, and he said to me, you know, he said, "What the- the worst, what you're trying to do is service your clients." And he said, "The worst service you could ever give your client would be to go bust in the halfway through the process of- of designing, because literally nobody would have anything and- and nowhere to go." And he said, "And if truthfully, you believe that it costs you 8,000 pounds to do this work, then you must go back to your client and say, 'Actually it's going to cost, I'm sorry, but it's going to have to cost 8,000 pounds.' Otherwise, the danger is we'll go bust and we'll leave you in the lurch, you know, if we were to win the job." So I did go back and I said that, and we won the pitch and they paid us 8,000 pounds.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
Because it was true, it was truthful. There's no, it wasn't a con. I wasn't trying to con them out of any money. It was just true.
- CWChris Williamson
I- I actually really want an up, I just need to upgrade my vehicle and petrol is currently like 1.20 a- a gallon and blah, blah, blah. So yeah, I um, I really like the- the, um, idea of using, breaking the fourth wall in business communications, especially in meetings. I think that the days of very stodgy business meetings where the elephant in the room isn't addressed to me seem to be very, very dead and buried. And perhaps that's just my proclivity. I'm sure, I can't imagine that in, um...... civil engineering, there's many, like, jokes that get cracked. But when you're talking about trying to uncover everyone's biases and elicit the responses that you all are hiding, and sometimes even you yourself as someone of, you know, however many decades it is of experience in this industry, you might need some work from your client or your partners in kind of dragging that out of you.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- 59:21 – 1:03:38
A spectacular failure: Mr Kipling packaging that overpromised the product
- BDBruce Duckworth
But- but y- you can't necessarily. Uh, there are clients who would love to go further than you think that they should go as well. You know, the opposite happens. You think that creative people always want to push clients. But actually, clients sometimes always want to push designers as well. Um, and you know, we've had a- I had a- a spectacular failure, um, which I'm happy to tell you about (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, we- I want to know. I wanna know.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. So there's a lot to learn from it, actually. So, um, we- we designed- uh, redesigned, uh, Mr. Kipling cakes, maybe, uh, this is quite a few years ago now. Um, and it was at the time when, uh, Nigella Lawson was making cupcakes (laughs) , and everybody was into home baking, and it- Mr. Kipling were going to relaunch as that kind of a brand. So they were going to not be... The- the- the- 'cause they- they're sort of charming for what they are, which is a sort of, you know, everyday, you know, in plastic baked good, and everybody knows what they're like. So there-
- CWChris Williamson
They're the sweet
- BDBruce Duckworth
... and Bessies, aren't they? Yes (laughs) . Yes, sort of, uh, yes, you're right. Um, but there was a lot of, um, uh, emphasis on making it much more of a home baked type product. And so we did this packaging that looked absolutely spectacular, and looked just like a home baked, uh, Mr. Kipling would. You know, it was all... It was beautiful photography, it- it looked fantastic. And Nigella Lawson would've been proud of it. And then, about, uh, six weeks before everything was due to launch, um, the factory had just, um, found it very difficult to replicate the actual products, the change of product, um, to look as good as the actual homemade product that we had photographed. And so they said, "Actually, what we're gonna do, is we're gonna launch with the old cakes and the new packaging," because the packaging, loved it, so I think everybody who saw it in consumer research absolutely loved it, and said, "We would just buy so much more if we- if it looked like that." And- and that was a- a classic. So many le- so many lessons you can learn from that. So they launched it with the new packaging and the old product.... and, of course, everyone bought it. It... Spike in sales went through the roof. And then, everyone opened it up and it was exactly the same as it was-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
... and there wasn't anything like what was on the outside.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
So, the sort of... You have to be truthful in, in everything that you do. And, and although they wanted to move into, into a new area and be really exciting, which would have been great had they been able to produce the product, um, you know, there's a real lesson that you can't... You know, you can't pretend to be something that you're not, you know? You do have to just be truthful. Um, and what they should have done was just stalled the relaunch and got the product right and then launched the two together. That's what should have happened, but it didn't. And, um, yeah, that's a lesson. Uh, we have had many failures, but that's, uh, fairly spectacular.
- CWChris Williamson
I can't believe that you've been, uh, flummoxed by baking. Like you've done-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... you've got everything right, and then some fella somewhere in the factory put too much butter in and now you've got to... Your design's knackered. I can't-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Well, it doesn't work. Y- Y- Because what you're trying to do is be unmistakable in what you're trying to visualize, but you're also trying to get the truth of what the product is out to people so that they're under no illusion. Uh, you know, it has to be honest and truthful and decent and, and exciting to look at, and, you know, and lying doesn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
But that integration now, I think, and, and integrity and, and having virtue as a brand from top to bottom, from packaging to product to pricing to, uh, company ethos, to all of that stuff, especially now with always-on 24/7 communication, which is seamless and happens across the globe, there's no room to pull the wool over customers' eyes anymore.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Correct.
- CWChris Williamson
You can't be the psychopath, the traveling psychopath that used to take advantage of every town and then, "Oh, well, I'm done there now. Like, let's snake oil salesman my way to the next one." Like, there isn't... There's none of that anymore. You see brands... You see people say sentences. Milo Yiannopoulos. I was reminiscing about Milo Yiannopoulos' fall from grace. Like, it... One sentence on one podcast, and that's-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... him gone from the entire public sphere. Done. And you're like, "Oh, my God." Sargon of Akkad, his entire Patreon gone, one sentence in some bizarre corner of the, the internet, you know? All of these different people. And the same is true for bra... Even, even more so for brands. Leverage through the roof, right?
- 1:03:38 – 1:07:10
Brand trust in crises and closing thoughts on designing a better world
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. And actually, now is an interesting time for brands. I mean, because, you know, uh, I was noticing in my, um, on my, uh, essential trip to, uh, the supermarket earlier, the empty shelves. And I was thinking how interesting it was that all of the kind of funky new, uh, brands that are out there were actually on the shelf still, but the kind of older, more trusted, uh, safe brands had all sold out. You know, um, you know, the, the, the disinfectant that isn't organic and just destroys everything-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- BDBruce Duckworth
... had sold out, you know? Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Mr. Muscle is never gonna struggle during a pandemic, is he?
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs) Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
Mr. Muscle, with Mr. Kipling and Aunt Bessie are absolutely loving-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Yeah. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... it at the moment. They're all having a party around... They're not doing social distancing. They're shaking hands.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's, um... I, I couldn't agree more.
- BDBruce Duckworth
See how they- h- how they're behaving. And you see, you know, Louis Vuitton producing... Yeah, and a number of others now following the same suit, producing, um, you know, some kind of hand wipes or whatever, or, you know, some kind of disinfectant-type products. And you think, that's a, that's a really good bit of, um, you know, branding for them. You know, people will remember them as being, you know, um, a company that reacted fast, you know. Someone l- like, um, you know, Louis Vuitton, you think is so, sort of, so out of reach of most people, but I think the decisions they've made as a brand, uh, in... at this moment are, are fantastic. Um...
- CWChris Williamson
They are. I wonder... I brought this up again-
- BDBruce Duckworth
You wouldn't remember it.
- CWChris Williamson
... recently, but I wonder how many brands are weaponizing goodwill at the moment. I think they are. I think a lot of them are doing something that is, that is virtue signaling for the sake of it because they think someone in a meeting somewhere... And maybe this is just my skepticism about brands that have turned a corner. And again, what that words imply, either it... One of two things can be correct. Either the brands are, um, weaponizing goodwill and they're using it to, uh, further their, uh, brand equity that they can then monetize in the future, or their marketing communication in advance of that wasn't sufficiently effective to make me believe that they were the sort of company that would do this off their own back.
- BDBruce Duckworth
Exactly. Exactly. It's actually poor marketing, probably. And y- And the ones that jump on the bandwagon, you can see them all jumping on the bandwagon now. You know, I think it'll have little effect on... Uh, I think, you know, your skepticism is shared by most consumers. You know, they all go, "Really?" You know, "Really?"
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you know what they should do? Get Turner Duckworth involved. Get-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... Turner Duckworth involved. Just, just-
- BDBruce Duckworth
That has been the an- that is the answer to so many people's problems.
- CWChris Williamson
I agree. So-
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... link will be in show notes below, of course.
- BDBruce Duckworth
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Look, Bruce-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Of course.
- CWChris Williamson
... today's been, today's been fantastic. Thank you so much. I-
- BDBruce Duckworth
Oh, I-
- CWChris Williamson
... really loved it.
- BDBruce Duckworth
... I've really enjoyed, really enjoyed chatting and, and I just think, you know, let's, uh, let's design everything beautifully. Let's have a wonderfully designed planet, you know, and the, the world would be better for it.
- CWChris Williamson
That's amazing. Um, if people want to check out what it is that you guys do, where should they go?
Episode duration: 1:07:11
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode sCt0TRxt5Vk
