Modern WisdomDiscipline, Confidence & The Champion’s Mindset - Chris Bumstead (4K)
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,050 words- 0:00 – 9:20
Hoping to Win a 6th Olympia
- CWChris Williamson
This is going out the day after the Olympia.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you hope happened yesterday?
- CBChris Bumstead
Well, I certainly hope I won, definitely, easiest answer to give. This year, it's just very important to me to really wanna bring my best package, you know? It sounds cheesy to say, but I've been working hard, going through a lot of adversities and challenges over the years, and every year has had something kinda, like, get in my way, and felt like it was holding me back. This year's had a few earlier on in the year, but at this point, I'm feeling pretty good, feeling pretty set. So I just wanna be able to stride into this one, I wanna be able to enjoy it. I wanna be able to, you know, get off stage, kiss my wife, hold my baby, know that I became the best in the world and maintained a beautiful relationship through it.
- CWChris Williamson
How important is it to share the success with somebody else as opposed to just doing it for yourself?
- CBChris Bumstead
It's hard to say how important it is 'cause I haven't had the success without her, but I can't imagine it in any other way. I think, you know, in the- in the meaning we find in life, it's beautiful to do hard things and to accomplish things. But if you were to do it alone, it's just not the same as being able to share it with someone. I think there's a level of, you know, codependence and regulation that can be healthy and can help you push through, be more present, not have to shut off and numb so much. You know, I think a lot of people who are going through hard things, trying to accomplish really big levels of s-success numb a lot to get there. And I think being able to have a partner in which you can regulate yourself with and share and communicate and lean on prevents you from having to numb, brings you closer together, which is its own experience as well as the experience of whatever you're working towards. So it's like double the amount of joy that you get to feel, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Growing in two ways at once.
- CBChris Bumstead
Exactly, yeah, and who doesn't want a big hug after you accomplish something, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's cool. What will you be talking about in your speech, hopefully?
- CBChris Bumstead
In my speech, hopefully? That's a good question. I would say, just talking about this year, I've been thinking a lot about the sacrifices that come with success. You know, like, nothing comes for free, and I've reflected a lot over the years of how much of my mental peace I've had to sacrifice to accomplish what I've accomplished. And it's just been a lot of, like, waking up at 5:00 AM, going through the day, wake up, weigh myself, weigh my food, do my check-ins in the mirror, like, go to the gym, work out. I was throwing everything, it's just like, "Am I good enough? Am I being enough? Am I doing enough to win the Olympia right now?" It's all just compared to being Mr. Olympia, to that level of success. And, you know, people talk about what you sacrifice to be great at things, and they're normally like, "You don't get to go hang out with your friends. You don't get to go party, go- uh, you go do these things." But I think for me, the biggest sacrifice has just been the- my- my men- my mental peace. So the goal this year has been trying to find that, maintain it, have the mental peace while also thriving at a high level and seeing how I can do that as- as efficiently as possible. And, you know, I'd like to be able to say I did so successfully at the end of this.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about the- the tension of being as high of a performer, th- the best in the world-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
...at what you do, whilst also not having that neurotic drive, that sort of ambient anxiety that you can never switch off 'cause it seems like that anxiety is precisely what creates the perfectionism approach-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
...that allows you to cover all of those bases. Is it possible to have one without the other?
- CBChris Bumstead
I'm not sure. I still have a level of neuroticism in me, even though I've been succeeding for a l- like, five, six years now, and it's definitely gotten better. You know, I- I don't focus on perfection. I focus on just being- doing the best I can. But even within that, I have that voice in my head that will look at myself every now and then and be like, "Y- not that I'm a shitty person, but if I'm trying to be Mr. Olympia, like, you're not fucking doing enough." And it creates a- like, a impeding anxiety upon myself, like I'm not doing enough. And that's not, like, an overwhelming thing all the time. It's- it's a drive for me to keep being better and keep pushing more and more, but it- it's a lot. So I think being able to manage that is one of the most challenging things of maintaining success for an extended period of time. You know, there's two different mindsets when you win something. There's, "Oh, I won, I did it, I'm done," and then there's, "Oh shit, like, I better- I gotta do better than this. I won-"
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
"...now I have to maintain this. Not only maintain this, but this is the bare minimum of what's expected of me, and I gotta do better now." So there's the balance of all that, and I think over the last couple years, I've been able to really be able to fix my perspective on just being grateful for the privilege of it. You know, there's been times where I thought I was gonna stop competing because the pressure felt so high, and then when I started to step away from it, I was like, "Fuck, I would really miss this pressure." Like, I have something I love about it, something I love about being put back against the corner, like, knowing that there's a lot of work I have to do, feeling like I can't accomplish my goal, and you're gonna have to do it. There's something so, like, simple and beautiful in the meaning of just doing something that difficult under that level of pressure that you're choosing to do. You know, people say you find meaning in suffering, and I think if you put yourself into, like, a meaningless suffering, it's kinda just, it's dumb. There's no point. You're just hurting yourself for no reason.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
But if you can find your meaning in just doing hard things that are as close as possible to suffering, that you're still benefiting from and you still enjoy, I think it's beautiful.
- CWChris Williamson
That's one of the vicious double-edged swords of having success, if you have that kind of mentality, which I know all- all too well, that anytime you reach a new high or achieve some new kind of bar-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"...hooray, we did it," immediately the next thought after that is, "Oh, fuck, I now need to do it again, but better." That's now the next minimum.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I've- I've had conversations with many people about the possibility of not having that and just being able to enjoy and relieve the pressure on yourself. And, you know, there's all these studies that come out talking about motivation and drive, saying that you can get more from coming from, like, a secure place rather than beating yourself up. And it's like, it depends on what your version of success is. Like, can these people-
- CWChris Williamson
Correct.
- CBChris Bumstead
...live a life to be more happy and fulfilled? Yes. But will they be Michael Jordan and have six championships?
- CWChris Williamson
Dude, I l-
- CBChris Bumstead
Probably not, you know?
- CWChris Williamson
I love this topic. I love it so much.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- 9:20 – 13:10
What’s Next for Chris?
- CWChris Williamson
next?
- CBChris Bumstead
What next in life? Take it year by year and we see. You know, I've been saying, I think 2019 was the year I finished, won the Olympia, went home, and I was like, "I'm done. I'm retiring." And that, that was the year. I was, I was over it. I was done. In 2018, I almost done, and then 2019, I'm like, "Fuck it, I'm gonna go win one." I won one, came back. All I felt was relief. I didn't enjoy it as much as I thought. I still was getting a little sick from my autoimmune. I didn't know how to manage my health properly back then, and it was just so much stress about my health because of 2018 when I was in the hospital for my autoimmune that I was like, "This isn't worth it to me. I'm not doing this anymore." And e- ever since then, I've been like, "If I do one more, then I'm lucky to do one more, and I'm gonna take it one year at a time." And so every year, I've been grateful enough to be able to do one more at a time if... My health has gotten better every single year, and, you know, every year, I find that drive and that excitement behind that pressure to be better and better, and I'm still enjoying it. I haven't sacrificed anything beyond my values and my truth, so I'm here doing my best.
- CWChris Williamson
It'll be maybe even more of an impressive feat to be able to do it without sacrificing that stuff.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's very unglorious.
- CBChris Bumstead
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know what I mean? It's- it's got nothing to do with how peeled you are when you step out on stage or, "Oh my God, look at how much back development he's, uh, accumulated from last year," or whatever. It's one of those very odd private victories.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know? Like, I- I- I always think about this. Um, these weird insults that we have to ourselves on a daily basis that, that no one is ever gonna give you any applause for. So, um, you get caught up in traffic in a way that wasn't your fault, and then when you get there, the person that you're dealing with, something goes wrong with that and something else goes wrong with this and something else goes wrong. The whole day, all the way down, and no one of these is impressive or grand or magnificent in any way. And you manage to sort of weave your way through the day, keeping your cool and you don't lose it, and you manage to kind of make the best of that whole day. And you get to the end of it, and there's no one applauding you for having got through that.
- CBChris Bumstead
No one cares.
- CWChris Williamson
And yet, you look back at the day and you go, "Holy fuck. Like, I'm really proud of myself for that."
- CBChris Bumstead
"I handled myself well." Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes, yes. I think a lot about normal private victories-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... like that, and it's a shame... it's a shame that there isn't a better way. I guess journaling, gratitude practice would help.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But, um-
- CBChris Bumstead
I mean, I would argue a really close relationship where you're able to share everything and they're able to see the struggles that most people don't ever see-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
... is another experience where, when you talk about-
- CWChris Williamson
Boring wins. Boring successes.
- CBChris Bumstead
Boring wins, you can share them together, you know? My wife is a hell of a lot more proud of me for being myself and being genuine than I... ever winning Olympias, you know? So I think that's another... so how we started off the podcast, way to experience something with someone else.
- CWChris Williamson
I was talking to Ben Shapiro yesterday, and he sort of reminded...... everybody just how much his wife, who's like a g- accomplished doctor and they've got four kids or whatever, gives absolutely zero shits about what he does. And he said that there'd been this week where he'd been to ... Uh, he'd, he'd filmed some really impressive documentary thing over in Europe, and then came back and was currently the number one rap artist in America-
- CBChris Bumstead
Right, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, in the same week. And he got home and s- talking to his wife and just saying, "How's your week been?" She's explaining about, "Oh, well this happened with the kids," and such and such. And so she said, "How was your week?" And he says, (inhales deeply) "Yeah, pretty busy I think."
- CBChris Bumstead
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
And, uh, sh- he explained, he's like, "I'm currently the number one selling rap artist," and-and she's like, "Yeah, yeah, that's good. The bins need taking out."
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah, to go take out the trash.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yep.
- CBChris Bumstead
That's a beautiful relationship.
- 13:10 – 20:36
Preparing for the Olympia
- CWChris Williamson
this prep been?
- CBChris Bumstead
This prep has been good. You know, it's been a struggle up and down at moments, as they always are. I started a little bit late this year, I feel. You know, I spent my winter down in Turkey getting a new hairline, and didn't go to the-
- CWChris Williamson
That's sweet, dude.
- CBChris Bumstead
(laughs) It's a little straighter than last time? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Well, looks good. I love it.
- CBChris Bumstead
What, what do they call me? The Lego Roblox character? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CBChris Bumstead
The comments love it. But, um, it took a couple months off at the beginning of the year, and kinda developed a little bit of pressure behind me feeling behind, and allowed me to kick my ass to go through it. But, you know, I feel good. My- my body's healthy, and I'm ready to roll.
- CWChris Williamson
What are your biggest cheats for this stage of prep or m- s- biggest insights around fat loss? I- I imagine the hunger that you're dealing with is pretty ugly. What- what calories are you on at the moment?
- CBChris Bumstead
I'm eating about 2,000, 2,200 calories right now.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. And we're what, three weeks out?
- CBChris Bumstead
Three and a half.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So that's gonna go down to 1,500, 1,600?
- CBChris Bumstead
It depends every year. Probably though.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- CBChris Bumstead
I still have to lose nine pounds in three weeks, so yeah, so probably it'll get, it'll cut down a little more.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you deal with the hunger? 'Cause e- e- it doesn't matter. People don't need to be trying to win the Mr. Olympia for the sixth year in a row or whatever.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Anybody that's on a cut deals with really difficult hunger, uh, and most of them don't have world championship driving them.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
What's your, uh, best ways for coping with hunger and cravings and stuff like that when you're deep into a fat loss phase?
- CBChris Bumstead
I mean, it's hard to answer in that aspect, because I always have had world championship as my driving passion.
- CWChris Williamson
Stop being a pussy, stop being a pussy, stop being a pussy.
- CBChris Bumstead
Stop being a ... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChris Bumstead
Like you're, "Don't be a little bitch, you don't need it," you know? But I would say the momentum is absolutely huge, being able to do something consistently. I've been doing this consistently for a decade. You know, almost everything I've eaten has been weighed out to a T and planned and for a reason for 10 years now. And if I had stopped and eaten whatever I want for five years and come back and been like, "Okay, diet for an Olympia," it would be extremely hard for me mentally to handle that. Every year has gotten a little bit easier because I've gotten used to it. I know what it takes. I know what comes with it. We were just talking about, you said Mike Israetel says the same thing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
You just, you stop caring about food. Even in my off season, I don't like eating food because I'm eating so much food, so I don't look forward to the food that I eat.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
I just make sure it's something edible that I can get down if I have to put, like, bone broth on or some sriracha and just eat it really fast. And then when I come down into prep and I am hungry, I still am not excited to eat the food. It's just, it's just some chicken breasts and some meal, make it super plain, and it is what it is. Get through the day and you're fine. And you also got to create, like, exciting daily victories for myself. You know, I weigh myself, like, three times a day, and I don't get obsessively worried about it, but I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna weigh myself right now. I'm a pound heavier than I was yesterday. You can't even think about eating anymore today. Like, you're heavier than yesterday. Like, you should probably eat less today, even go do some more cardio, push it a little bit harder."
- 20:36 – 25:48
What Chris Would Tell His Younger Self
- CWChris Williamson
I've gone back through your Instagram over the last few months, and you've done some really cool stuff. You've started putting pretty nice insights in captions over videos that are pretty enjoyable to read. They're a nightmare to go back and try and actually write down 'cause they're moving pretty quickly.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So I wanna go through some of the best stuff I've learned from you over the last few months.
- CBChris Bumstead
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
The first one is exactly what you were just talking about. "If I could go back, I'd tell younger me, 'You're going to do some pretty great things, but you do not need to be great. All you have to do is be yourself. That will always be enough.'" What's that mean to you?
- CBChris Bumstead
You know, I, I've had a lot of different thoughts that have come into my mind now having a child, when Courtney was pregnant, thinking about raising a child myself when I was a child and all these things. And I think I always felt like I wanted to be good at everything I did and be great at what I did, and I never expected to be as good as I was. So it would just be such an interesting relief to be able to give myself to be like, "You are gonna be great. You're gonna have all these things that you want, but you're also gonna realize that they're not as important as you think they are." You know, like, you're gonna come to the realization where the relationships and your values and everything that you enjoy and the experiences and everything aren't gonna come down to those spectacular moments on stage at the Olympia. They're gonna be much more simpler than that. They're just gonna be those moments where you're being yourself, and the people who love you for that is gonna be everything.
- CWChris Williamson
"You do not need to be great." That compulsion, that necessity, that sort of being pulled-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... forward, the lack. "I am not enough-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... as I am. And if I achieve these great things, and if everyone thinks I'm cool or says that I'm successful, then I am worthy of acceptance and validation and praise and adoration."
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that the subtext below that quote?
- CBChris Bumstead
Like, yeah. Essentially, yeah. That's, um ... It's just a drive of self-worth, you know? It's a kind of a buzzword of what's going on right now, but I think it's, you know, we were all kind of raised in a self s- self-esteem society of being like, "You can do anything, you can be anything, go be this, X, Y, and Z," and it almost built expectations that we had to be these great things because we could be and our parents didn't have these opportunities and privileges, so we go do all these things and there's just no need for any of it, you know? And I think when you are able to alleviate that pressure from it, like we were talking about the difference of, like, the extrinsic goals, trying to be the best in the world versus just trying to be my best self, you know, and setting authentic goals to myself.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
What are my authentic goals? Winning the Olympia sometimes is a little more inauthentic than me truly trying to just push myself to be my best. Do I still enjoy that? Absolutely. But those are the more of the need to be great-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
... the little ego, the-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
... the things that I'll die not needing. But the intrinsic goals that are regardless of things outta my control, you know, win, lose, beat them, don't beat him, what's in my control to, of just being myself and who I am, showing up at my best, knowing that I can go to sleep at night knowing I was myself.
- CWChris Williamson
We talked about pressure as a privilege-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... last time, but this is actually the same, but in reverse. This is privilege is a pressure. That the-
- CBChris Bumstead
Privilege is a pressure.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That the privilege you have-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... carries along with it this pressure in order to perform. "Well, your parents didn't have this opportunity."
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- 25:48 – 33:46
Unwavering Confidence is a Lie
- CWChris Williamson
The fears never go away completely. They just don't linger as long." What's that?
- CBChris Bumstead
Is that my quote?
- CWChris Williamson
To you.
- CBChris Bumstead
Sounds good.
- CWChris Williamson
You wrote it. I mean, it sounds, sounds fantastic.
- CBChris Bumstead
Sounds beautiful. Um, I mean, that's kind of in that same boat. And maybe I'm just a weird champion who's not like that, but I still have full doubt all the time, and I've tried to find ways to believe I wouldn't have doubt. You know, I've tried to, like, talk in ways where I don't have doubt. I've tried to everything, and there's always just lingering doubt in my mind of being like, "Well, fuck, what if you don't? What if you can't?" And it's just the truth of my mind, and regardless of that, over the past five years, I've still been able to perform, progress, and be the best in the world with that on my mind. So, who's to say that I can't have that doubt in my mind while being a champion? There's no rules to it, which is why I've always said the champion mentality, the rules of being a champion is that there are no rules. It's just whatever the champion does to win.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
That's it.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. There's a, a great story from Matthew Syed. So he's a, a sports reporter. He's obsessed with tennis.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And he went to Wimbledon a few years ago, and a unique aspect of tennis over the last decade or so has been that you had, uh, Djokovic, Federer, and Nadal, three goats, three potentially literally goats-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... all at the same time, all interchanging and exchanging who won on this court or this tour with this surface. And he went to go and watch them warm up, and you go in and you see Nadal, and he's just ripped, absolutely shredded. It's all aggression. It's pure sort of raw-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... animalistic energy. And then you go and see Djokovic, and he's sort of robotic, uh, very precise, very, uh, curated with the way that he moves. Nothing is wasted. And then you go and see, uh, Federer, and he's playing trick shots and he's laughing with the guy and this woman. And he goes, "Okay." So if you were to take any of those three approaches and say, "In order for me to become a world champion, I must be A, B, or C." Well, you can't be all of them-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and all of them are successful. So, what does it mean to say that A or B or C are the right approach in order for you to be successful in the sport of tennis?
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It doesn't. It means that each different athlete has found a way that works for them-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and when you try and take that format and apply it to yourself, what you end up doing is take... It's like trying to put on somebody else's pair of shoes.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You go, "Well, I'm a size 10 and they're a size eight, and this is not going to work."
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah. Well, the truth is A, B and C are all wrong answers. Anything out there is a wrong answer. You have to build it in yourself, you know, and like I talk about the cookies of the intuition, you know, over time, you just, you build intuition. When you can get into a flow state of just trusting yourself to show up as you are, and if it's playful, if it's intense, if it's quiet, if it's loud, if it's doubtful, if it's whatever, if it's just who you are and you're not needing to put on any facade, and you are able to release that mask and show up in a flow and trust your instincts and act on instinct, I don't think you can be beat.
- CWChris Williamson
What do you say to people who often feel fear? You mentioned the fears never go away completely. Feeling fear sucks. Not very comfortable.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, nobody wants to feel fear. I don't wanna feel fear. But as somebody that's intimately familiar with that and pressure, what do you say to people who, uh, notice it come up? Or what do you do yourself?
- CBChris Bumstead
I would say, when I start to feel fear about something now, I get a, a turn into excitement. 'Cause in the past when I've started to feel fear, it's 'cause something big that I've worked hard for that's really important to me, has started to come creeping up closer. And there's something beautiful about the human experience of stress and anxiety and nervous fear and all those things, and just trying to embrace that and lean into it is the best way I've been able to handle it when it comes to performance. But when there's stuff that's actually, like, impending fear of my health, let's say, something that I can't just be like, "Lean into the excitement that you..." I might have a health problem or something.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CBChris Bumstead
I've found, again, I've tried to embrace it and just feel it and sit with it and feel feelings, as we've talked about many times, and that's helped, but there's another level of giving it the validation that it deserves, the feeling of validation it deserves. And that, f- to me, that's being able to vocalize it out loud. And I think this is different for everyone, but for myself, I'm a very introverted person and I tend to keep things to myself, and I have a brain that's very logical. So it's like, "Well, I'm scared about my health." "Well, you have no reason to be scared about your health. You're healthy. You do these tests and all these things." "Well, I'm still anxious," and I'm, like, working through it logically in my brain, and I try and just, like, diminish...... the feeling that I have, logically-
- 33:46 – 40:41
What if Chris Hadn’t Gone for it?
- CWChris Williamson
to the idea of confidence and fears, what do you think life would've been like for you if you hadn't gone for it, whatever that means to you?
- CBChris Bumstead
That's an excellent question. You know, I was thinking about that the other day, of how, like, w- or, like again, most of, th- the thought I was having was when we were young, we, we're told we can be anything. Then we realize it's a lie, and then we realize we're telling ourselves it's a lie because we actually just realized how much work it's gonna take. And we'd rather believe it's a lie that we're not willing to work hard enough to achieve these things. And then it's kind of like this back and forth of, like, "Can I, or is it just too hard, or am I just too weak?" And it's this back and forth, and you know, I'm just so grateful I fell into something that I was so passionate about that took a lot of effort and work, but that I also loved to do and my body was built for and my mind was built for. You know, I was clearly genetically built to be a bodybuilder. Mentally, physically, environmentally, my relationships, all, everything flowed perfectly (laughs) for me to be in this perfect position. And I think it's just ... It's hard to say where I would end up without this life, and it's, I don't even like thinking about it 'cause it's hard. But the effort that I put into this would be really hard for me to put into something I didn't love. So if I hadn't gone for it, which would be, for me, back in 2017 when I was in college, drinking, partying, doing all the things and being like, "You know what? I'm not g- I'm gonna stop this. When my friends go out, I'm gonna go to sleep. I'm gonna wake up early, I'm gonna go to the gym. I'm gonna eat six times a day, I'm gonna spend my money on tuna and chicken breast rather than six packs of beer and all, all these things. And I'm just gonna drop out of school and I'm gonna travel and I'm gonna try and get sponsors and I'm gonna try and win shows and I'm gonna do all this, and I'm gonna take every risk I can." And I didn't even think about it, you know? When you're young, luckily, you're in, you're at the greatest opportunity in your life to take risk and to fail, and then you're like, "Well, I'm 24 now, I can just go restart." <|agent|><|en|>
- CWChris Williamson
I suppose you're ignorant to the price that you're gonna have to pay as well.
- CBChris Bumstead
Oh, yeah. I-
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think that you would've done it had you have known what it was going to ... Obviously not knowing the outcomes, because that's put you where you are, where you're really happy-
- CBChris Bumstead
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, but going, "Oh, this is what it's gonna entail? This is the price that you're asking me to pay?"
- CBChris Bumstead
I don't know. I'm, I, I mean, yeah, I w-
- CWChris Williamson
Blissfully unaware to what was-
- CBChris Bumstead
I, I would've been too ignorant to say no. So yes, I would've for sure.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- CBChris Bumstead
You know, you can't know until you're in it.
- CWChris Williamson
Young, dumb, and full of hope.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah. What was it, what was it you used to say? Full of magic and rubber or something?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, made of rubber and magic.
- CBChris Bumstead
Rubber and magic.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it is, dude. You, you know, you ... All of the-... like, things that happen to you, the bruises that you get when you're younger just seem to bounce off, in some ways, more easily. And then you go through this sort of period of not hiding from the stuff that insults you or that damages you, and you go, "Oh, okay. I- this thing has now happened and I need to actually deal with it, as opposed to just using momentum or inertia or distraction or whatever to get me through it." Uh, and then the goal is to come out the other side and to actually have done that work and now be anti-fragile.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? So you go from, like, unconscious competence, in the beginning, to conscious incompetence, and then hopefully to conscious competence-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... which is where you've got full control. You know that it's happened, you've fully sort of transcended and included whatever that- whatever that challenge is.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But, um, yeah, it's- it's funny to think about the weird decisions that you make, one-time decisions. So for me, moving to America. I was 33 years old, like, I don't know, should I not have had my life together by then? Feels like I probably should have done. Should I really be dicking about, trying to change careers and move? Is this not the age by which you're supposed to have all of your life got together, and you're going to move to this country on your own? To, like, talk to people on the internet and try (laughs) and make it into a career-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... in like the most competitive city in the entire world, to try and do it, and see if it's going to work with no... D- I didn't even have the visa when I moved out here. It was, like, under review or whatever. Living in an Airbnb and, uh... Yeah.
- CBChris Bumstead
Do you think it's possible to discover the limit of truly what you're capable of? Like, do you think you'll achieve a point and be like, "I achieved everything I was capable of"? And are you working towards that or are you just working?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. It's gonna be hard to do it within this industry, and it's one of the reasons that I love sport. Increasingly, I'm using sport as an analogy for lots of other things in life.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Because you have very tightly defined parameters of success and failure.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- 40:41 – 46:45
The Pursuit is Greater Than the Prize
- CWChris Williamson
to that, you said, "I found greater fulfillment in the journey of pursuing my goals than in the moment of achieving them." Why?
- CBChris Bumstead
(sighs) I'd say that comes to, like the question I asked you, discovering what I was capable of. You know, there's been so many times where I've been in a prep and I felt way too far behind to win. And I'm, uh, had an injury last year when I tore my lat, tore my bicep, was in the hospital, like all these different things going on. And I'm like, "There's no way that I can do this. Like, it's impossible." And if I were to ever ask myself in the past, like, "Do you think you could win or get through this and do this?" I'd be like, "No way, it's impossible." But I was in it and I did it and I accomplished it. And I was like, "I'm capable of so much more than my mind understands." And I think that's just the greatest part of the journey that I've achieved, is like that understanding of what I'm capable of and that belief in myself to what I can accomplish. And it only came through the journey, didn't come through the winning, it come through the challenge that came along the journey and- and coming through it and fighting through it and the beauty of all that. And on top of that, there's just been so many moments in the midst of things where like, it's a workout or it's a diet or I'm starving or I'm j- like doing check-ins or something, and I'm just like, "This is incredible." Like, "I'm peak condition in the world right now, fighting to be the best in the world, and I'm living in that moment right now. I'm doing the..." Uh, this is what it takes. When people see something on stage-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
... this is what they don't see or the, what I'm feeling in my mind, but no one will understand what it takes to get there. I get to experience this every day, and I think it's just part of the human experience of feeling in life that's just so beautiful.
- CWChris Williamson
... those boring normal victories that contribute to the really impressive ones.
- CBChris Bumstead
Exactly, the boring victories. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I, they're- they're important, man. You know?
- CBChris Bumstead
Very.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, yeah, I think ... Having a way that people could celebrate those on a daily basis. Me and a friend came up with this idea of a well done list. So you can have a done list, which is the shit I did today, but a well done list allows you to note down, so, uh, I- I got through my training session even though I felt really crap this morning when I woke up and my mind was mean to me.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But no one... Where does that go? Right? It's not grand or-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... ceremonious enough in order to justify an Instagram post. Maybe you'd be able to tell a particularly mindful partner about it, but it's ... You don't even tell your friend. You're going out-
- CBChris Bumstead
After you told your mindful partner five days in a row, they'd be like, "All right." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, yeah, fuck off. Yeah.
- CBChris Bumstead
"Fuck off."
- CWChris Williamson
You're miserable every day.
- CBChris Bumstead
(laughs) Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Shut up. Uh, but yeah, I think the opportunity to give yourself a pat on the back, like a well done for today. I've written on a Post-It note on my bathroom mirror what went well today.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Which is my reminder for the well done list. And uh, yeah, when I think about it, when I actually do that practice, which I need to do more, uh, but when I do that practice on an evening time, I come up with the most boring victories. You know, the most mundane things. Um, that person in the Starbucks was annoying and I didn't react.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You know? Or I- I dealt with it with grace or whatever. Like, little things like that-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... that I do think over time actually contribute to you being a pretty impressive human, and a- a human-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you're proud of-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... as well, which is maybe even more important.
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm. I've had those moments. Someone comes up to me and like, "I didn't know who to tell. I just wanted to come to you 'cause like, I felt safe talking to you." And they're like, telling me something and I walk away and I'm like, "I feel good about myself, you know? I'm that person that they wanted to come to."
- 46:45 – 56:23
Experiencing Parenthood
- CBChris Bumstead
to me about dad life. How is it? It's been good. It's been really good. The first thing that hit me is just f- absolute love and appreciation for my wife, especially watching her go through like the birth process and everything. Holy hell. Women are incredible. It was crazy. Experiencing that was the- the most insane thing I had ever experienced in my life.
- CWChris Williamson
How so?
- CBChris Bumstead
(clears throat) Like, she- she wanted to do it naturally. She did it just all on her own naturally. She was-
- CWChris Williamson
That means without painkillers?
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah, just- just as nature is, you know? (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yep, yep, yep.
- CBChris Bumstead
Like, no- nothing in her, so she was in a tough bounce around-
- CWChris Williamson
Raw dog this birth.
- CBChris Bumstead
Just raw dogging it, in so much pain, and there were so many moments where like, she was just shaking in pain and like losing it, and I thought she was gonna like snap, be like, "I need the drugs, I need the epidural," whatever, and I was like, "Babe, come on, you can do this. Lock it in." She's like (breathing heavily) , and she was just locked-
- CWChris Williamson
You didn't tell your wife to just lock in?
- CBChris Bumstead
Oh, I told her to lock it in. I told her to. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChris Bumstead
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
Bro, just lock in.
- CBChris Bumstead
Come on, bro.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- CBChris Bumstead
She w- she had me, she had me pinching her, like, traps as hard as I could. Like literally, I was like white knuckling her trap.
- CWChris Williamson
To try and distract from the pain?
- CBChris Bumstead
To try and distract from the pain, just like, it was incredible.
- CWChris Williamson
I love the solution to pain being more pain.
- CBChris Bumstead
Being more pain, I know, right? Her doctor was like, "You shouldn't be doing that." I'm like, "She's telling me to. I'm not gonna say no."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, exactly. You tell her to tell me not to.
- CBChris Bumstead
But it- it was just incredible to experience all that and to see her in such, like, an empowering moment, overcoming so much. Like, there's zero chance I would've gone through that. Like, it was so much pain, and she just handled it like a champ. And then you go home and then you have to take care of a child, and you're not sleeping and you're doing all these things, and there's so much more that comes into it. So I think I just, I developed so much appreciation for, you know, moms, women, my wife, being able to see all that, and it- it's been really cool. And another...... kind of wake-up call that I had in, like ... There's two things I'll explain. The first one is just this concept I thought of, that your children eventually will know exactly who you are. For an extended period of time, they're going to think of you as, like, a hero, as a god, as perfect, like, you're- you're a parent who knows everything. And then they're going to turn to a certain age and realize that you're human and there's a lot of shit you don't know. And any, like, burdens you have, anything you try and hide from them, they see through it all, 'cause they see you all the time. There's no hiding anything from them. So you really have to, like, be on your best. You have to work on your shit, solve your problems, not be a passive-aggressive asshole, not do ... Whatever your faults are, you need to fix 'em so you don't pass 'em on to them. And they're going to see them eventually, because you can't hide from them. You can put whatever you want on social media, you can be nice in public, do all these things, but at home, there's no hiding anything. They're going to know exactly who you are. And I think that, like, just responsibility that withheld within that is just powerful and beautiful and exciting.
- CWChris Williamson
There's nowhere to escape, right?
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's like-
- CBChris Bumstead
Accountability.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's like a Navy SEAL hell week that never stops.
- CBChris Bumstead
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
You have this permanent instructor over your shoulder-
- 56:23 – 59:35
How to Let Go of Perfectionism
- CBChris Bumstead
- CWChris Williamson
How have you found being able to let go of perfectionism in other areas-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... of life, given that you dial in an awful lot, whether it's with business or branding or copywriting or the way that you and Calvin film your content and put that out in a sort of nicely controlled, curated way, the way that you step on stage, your knowledge of your diet and your sleep and your training and your macros and all that stuff? And then you've just got this thing which is not subject to Chris's desires, and will do what it's going to do. And also, your, uh, self-assessment of your own performance as a father and desire to be as good as possible and so on and so... Is this just another domain for you to find holes in your own performance in?
- CBChris Bumstead
That's a hell of a question. Um, it's funny 'cause in aspects of my life, I'm the least perfectionist person ever. I'm very just like, "It's good enough, just send it." And then the things that are really important to me, I can be a huge perfectionist about, which is where, you know, bodybuilding, relationships, all these things I can start to be a little overly hard on myself. So I think even that contrast of balance of different sides of my personality has helped me alleviate it, but I'm not, uh, not everything needs to be perfect. I'm like, that stuff, the, the YouTube video will get there. Calvin will worry about that. These guys help me with the business, that's all fine. This is what I need to be perfect on. So at least it's not everything.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
But even within that, just being able to compete at such a high level for so many years, I've seen so many people who have been so obsessed with being... especially in bodybuilding where everything is weighed, everything's about a look. Like, when it's something where, like, you know, something's on your mind so you lost 30 minutes of sleep last night, you didn't enter a deep REM sleep so you had some water, had higher cortisol, and you wake up and you look different the next day, like that's how specific a physique sport is when you're that lean and dialed in, that anything can change it-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- CBChris Bumstead
... you can really start to get in your fucking head about it. And I've seen so many people overthink of to the grain of rice being perfect, and eating at the same time every day and everything, and needs to be so perfect. And just the stress of that making them worse, that I pulled back from the perfectionist of it and just tried to been like, where's diminishing returns? What's gonna keep my mental peace? Where... What, what cookie is gonna al- alleviate enough stress-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
... that it's actually more beneficial than eating healthy?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- CBChris Bumstead
Where does, where does that balance lie, you know? You, you pull and you test and you tug and you go back and forth a little bit and you just figure it out over the years. And luckily I've, I've just learned to trust my intuition in a lot of things. And I think in being a dad now, uh, my intuition's not as strong as being Mr. Olympia. So I'm refiguring that one out.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- CBChris Bumstead
Luckily, my wife is just an incredible mom as she is. So, a lot of the time-
- CWChris Williamson
World champion mom.
- CBChris Bumstead
... I just ask her. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
What should I do?
- CBChris Bumstead
If I don't know what to do-
- CWChris Williamson
What should I do?
- CBChris Bumstead
... I'm like, "What do I do, how do I do this?" And she tells me-
- CWChris Williamson
Are you saying that Courtney is your honey for, uh, childrearing?
- CBChris Bumstead
Oh yeah, for sure. She's inc- she could be anyone's coach for childrearing somehow. She's just built for it.
- CWChris Williamson
It's funny that the point you're making, I think, is the stress of trying to be perfect will damage your performance more quickly than the imperfections will.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Which is where the cookie comes in.
- CBChris Bumstead
The cookie.
- CWChris Williamson
All-important cookie.
- 59:35 – 1:05:44
Advice for Choosing a Good Partner
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, about your wife, you said, "Being with someone who allows others to be their best selves in your presence will quite literally change the world around you. I get to wake up beside that someone every day, and every night I go to sleep with more reason to be grateful for you. You will always be my life's greatest blessing." What's your advice for choosing a good partner? I think that sounds like the summary that everybody wants-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to, to, to do that. But you know, so many relationships don't seem to have that positive-
- CBChris Bumstead
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... dynamic in it. So what was it about Courtney that made you choose her? Or are there any, uh, fundamental principles that you think people should be looking out for?
- CBChris Bumstead
I would say before what you're looking out for, it's what you're putting out. You know the law of... I don't understand the law of attraction exactly how it is, but what you put out, you attract. If you're being your authentic self-... our birth word today. You're being your true self. You're speaking about what's really important to you. You're putting out the energy that you care about, that you want to get back into the world and you're being real, you're gonna get that back. If you're putting on a show and you're chasing the, the inauthentic goals that are for other people or to keep up with society or pressure as a parent or whatever it might be, you're gonna start attracting people w- who are attracted to those goals and that energy which isn't your real self, rather than who you really are. And the incredible thing of how me and Courtney met was I put out my first, like, YouTube video crying, talking about something really emotional that I had gone through the year I was in the hospital, talking about a really scary time h- how fearful I was, being really raw. Like, first time ever talking about it, therapy session on camera, crying. And she saw that and she's like, "Wow, this guy is different." Like, th- I've never ... Like, this guy just came second in the Olympia and he's putting out a video crying about, like, his emotions going through this. Like, that's different. I like that." And then she reached out to me, and that's how we ... That's what attracted to us. It was that energy of authenticity and emotion and rawness and realness that attracted us together, and that was the foundation of our relationship of how we were going to build things going forward. So I think instead of what I was looking for, it was what I was putting out in that moment. And she was attracted to it because that's who she is, you know? When I say she, she's the light that lets everyone be their best selves, you know? She's the type of person where I'll go to the bathroom and come out and someone will be crying, and it'll be like ... Or the store clerk checking out her groceries is telling her about her child who X, Y, and Z and all this other ... I'm like, "H- ... " Well, I'm like, "What are you " She's like, "I didn't say anything. People just tell me all their stuff." I'm like, it ... But it's beautiful.
- CWChris Williamson
That's right.
- CBChris Bumstead
People just feel so safe and comfortable around her because she's such an amazing, like, loving, selfless person. It's just who her ... It's her nature, and she doesn't need to be anything other than that. It's just al- who she's always been. And I just love that, and I ... I'm like the protector of that energy 'cause she gives out so much, so I try and, like, protect her, and then in the confines of our home, she gives me the space to be myself and be my raw self of what she saw and protects me in there.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so funny that if you tried to be somebody else, the person that ended up making you a better version of you wouldn't have even been interested. Like, if you tried to put on some sort of a show, if that video hadn't been there, or if you'd kept on closing down your emotions, that was the very thing-
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... that she was gonna be most attracted to. I think this is one of the problems, again, with the Djokovic, Nadal, Federer way that this is the way that you're supposed to attract. "We understand what it is that women are attracted to." And I'm like, "Maybe on average, but you can only put on a façade for so long."
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And-
- CBChris Bumstead
Everyone's different.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. You're gonna end up in a relationship with somebody that loves you for not you, and it's gonna be exhausting.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
For the both of you.
- CBChris Bumstead
Some people might not like that version of Courtney. A lot of women might think I'm t- I would, I would think overly emotional and weak or something, and that, and that's fine.
- CWChris Williamson
But they're not for you.
- CBChris Bumstead
But they're not for me.
- CWChris Williamson
And you're not for them.
- CBChris Bumstead
So, yeah. And I think one of the cool things I've discovered in our relationship is your ability to be a burden to your partner is important. Like, for you to feel safe to be a burden to your partner and for them to still show up and love you, and then you're like, "Oh, wow, like, I don't need to give you anything in return. You're not expecting anything in return. I can put my burdens on you and you love me, and that makes me feel safe and love you. So when you put your burdens on me, I'll do the same." It just becomes this, like, burning circle of love, you know? You just ... I, I feel like that's such an important thing to s- Find someone who you just feel safe being a burden to. You're not gonna intentionally be a burden, but if you've ... It's ... You're ... Sometimes you suck, you know? (laughs) Sometimes you're a burden, and if you don't even feel safe being like that around your partner and you have to just withhold things from them and put on that show, you're never gonna feel, like, safe around them, and you're not gonna want, want to be there for them as much when they're being a burden as well. Just become these two people dividing and conquering all your problems rather than taking on the world together.
- CWChris Williamson
I really like that idea that here I am, not fully competent, slightly broken, in need of help. Oh, and you're still here.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
You didn't leave.
- CBChris Bumstead
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's pretty beautiful. (whooshing sound) In other news, this episode is brought to you by Function. I wanted a better way to track what was happening inside of my body, and that is why I partnered with Function. They run over 100 lab tests every year covering heart, hormones, nutrients, thyroid, and even detecting 50 types of cancer at stage one. That's five times more testing than a regular physical. Best of all, your results are charted over your lifetime and explained in one simple dashboard. Lab testing like this would usually cost thousands, but with Function, it's only $500. I rely on Function because it's evidence based and run by a team of expert physicians so you can trust that the data and insights you receive are scientifically sound and unbiased. Plus, Dr. Andrew Hubman is the scientific advisor, and Dr. Mark Hyman is the chief medical officer. Function has a 300,000-person wait list, but every Monday, they open a few spots for Modern Wisdom listeners. You can bypass the wait list right now by going to the link in the description below or heading to functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. That's functionhealth.com/modernwisdom. (whooshing sound) What do
- 1:05:44 – 1:09:37
How Women Can Help Their Man Flourish
- CWChris Williamson
you wish more women knew about how they can help their man become a better version of himself? Because it seems like Courtney's very much able to do that for you.
Episode duration: 2:04:05
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