EVERY SPOKEN WORD
140 min read · 27,876 words- 0:00 – 1:57
Intro
- STSam Tatam
... the classic Henry Ford production line. He borrowed that from a slaughterhouse in Chicago. But instead of having cars on a pulley that built, they had cows on a pulley that were dismantled. He just reversed it. The radical innovation of Henry Ford was like, "That's just a butcher's disassembly line in reverse."
- CWChris Williamson
Why did you put a picture of a half-eaten chocolate bar in your book?
- STSam Tatam
A really great, great question. That's deep in the book when we're talking about triggering action, how we can get people to, to respond. Um, and the, the chocolate bar in, uh, i- i- itself is a Kit Kat, and everyone knows how you eat a Kit Kat. You eat it sort of finger by, by finger. (laughs) But the image that you're referring to is an image of someone taking a big hunk out of the end-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- STSam Tatam
... and it sort of breaks the pa- You know what I mean? And it's a bit like someone (laughs) scratching their nails down a chalkboard. You know what I mean? It's like breaking the pattern. Like, that's not the rule. You know what I mean? We know how to eat a, we know how to eat a Kit Kat. A- and that's an example of, of sort of the brain's patternicity. You know what I mean? We, we love... We see the worlds in, in... We see the world in patterns. Randomness doesn't make any sort of benefit to, to our, our, our, our, uh, survival. So spotting patterns and following these systems make a, uh, a lot of sense. And if we can deviate from that, we can help people to sort of right it. Um, so, so the chocolate bar in, in, in question leads itself to a wonderful piece of behavioral design, um, by a designer called Louw Brooms, who created a light switch. And the intention of the light switch was to encourage, to sort of nudge people to, to switch the lights off. Uh, and, and he did this by creating a light switch that when the lights are off, it makes a beautiful zebra pattern, you know what I mean? But as soon as you switch the light on, it breaks the pattern. It's a bit like biting the end off a Kit Kat. It's just not how it's meant to be. So you're forever sort of (laughs) feeling this sense of discomfort and are, and are inclined to turn the lights off again. So that's the... That's why there's an image of a, of a half-eaten chocolate bar in the book.
- 1:57 – 7:16
The Role of Evolution in Marketing
- STSam Tatam
- CWChris Williamson
What job does evolution have in the world of marketing and consumer behavior?
- STSam Tatam
It plays a huge role, and I think in, in two fronts, one in, in understanding, um, that much of what we're seeking to influence has, has evolved in its nature. Desire, status, all of these are sort of evolutionary drivers. The, the, the path I take, uh, in the, in the book Evolutionary Ideas is more so that ideas also evolve. Just as we see biological evolution that adapts and, and, and some solutions prevail and some become extinct, and we can see patterns in these solutions in biology, we can also see these patterns in ideas. And if you understand, um, the, the patterns and you understand the solutions that those patterns provide us, then we can draw upon them to be more efficient in our, in our marketing and, and, and more creative in, in our marketing, I believe, too.
- CWChris Williamson
I quite like the insight that novel problems don't require novel solutions. There's this quote from Thomas Edison that says, "Your idea needs to only be original in its adaptation to your problem." Which is lovely, because you think, there are a lot of cross-category solutions that somebody in an airline has come up with that could be used by a person that's trying to start a cleaning business or whatever it might be.
- STSam Tatam
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, yeah, it, it does seem like there is a pedestalization of big innovation rather than incremental, uh, and definitely cross-category stuff as well.
- STSam Tatam
Absolutely. And, and t- two reasons for, for this. One is, um, that we have a sort of a proportionality. We have this assumption that big r- problems require big solutions. Um, if we hear... In the, in the physical world, if we hear a loud bang, (laughs) we assume that it required a loud... sort of a large input by which to make the bang. Um, a wonderful, I think it was a '60s study, but it was looking at craps plays in casinos where you roll the dice. And they found that if people needed a high number, they were more likely to roll (laughs) the dice harder. And if you needed a, a low number, you roll it softly. Really lovely example of proportionality. So this assumption that... It's great how you... It's why we thought... It's so hard for us to believe that mosquitoes can cause something as catastrophic as yellow fever. How can something so small cause something so big? But in the world of ideas and psychology, it certainly can. Big, big sort of outcomes for... can be caused by small solutions, and that's a big argument for sort of nudge theory, and that's been written a lot in innovation of behavioral science. But what I get really interested in is that a solution or a problem that might feel novel to you is likely not novel to someone else in another category. And as you say, Chris, we're so blinded by the industry that we're in and often the category tropes that we're defined by that we don't look outside the category. And, and we've needed, uh, sort of a bit of connective tissue to help us to go there. Uh, what, what's... Why would Castrol motor oil ever seek advice or inspiration from Gatorade or Powerade, right? And I, I've, I've worked with, with, with businesses like Castrol in the past, looking at engine lubricants, and we did creative reviews of Shell Helix and Valvoline and all the lubricant categories to see what they're doing creatively that year. But we'd never look at Powerade. But if we understood that both are in the same... They're, they're faced with the same challenge. We need to convince people to pay a premium for a product that they can't see is actually working. In other words, it's, it's doing its magic behind closed doors because of some magic secret ingredient. Whether that's an iron IV molecule for Powerade or Magna-Tec for Castrol, we're talking about the same human challenge here. So let's, let's give ourselves an excuse to sort of e- expand our, our scope of inspiration outside the category that we're in.
- CWChris Williamson
Is that the superpower of being an agency that works outside of companies? A marketing department that's held within a particular business itself is gonna be much more siloed.
- STSam Tatam
For, for me, that is, and that's, I mean, f- it's one of the most enjoyable parts, I think, of working in an agency. But I remember years ago...... um, and I can't remember the exact nature of the, the, the challenge, but my old boss, Mark Sarratt, the, um, strategy, um, head of Ogilvy in Australia, and we were working on Uncle Toby's Oats. Right? So it's like classic Australian down-to-earth oats. And, and we sat down. I remember where we were sitting, I don't remember the problem. But he said, "I've seen the same problem for Jaguar." And I remember when, when, and I was very junior into the business, I thought, "Well, firstly, well, this guy's worked on Jaguar. How awesome is that?" But the fact that he had the exposure to so many brands and challenges, that he could connect a challenge for rolled oats with one that he's seen for, for, for Jaguar premium sports cars. And, and I think that's, um, that's a, a, a blessing of being in an agency. But it's also something I think if you make it part of your job to seek sort of cross-category challenges and, and cross-category solutions so you can bring them to spaces that they otherwise wouldn't belong. And that goes back to what I was speaking about, that, that connective tissue, what helps us to, to define the area of exploration and to justify why we can bring that solution into a category that it might never be seen before.
- CWChris Williamson
To draw this across to evolution, I think
- 7:16 – 16:50
Different Species Evolve to Reach Same Results
- CWChris Williamson
you make a parallel between Gatorade and Castrol and dolphins and sharks. The fact that-
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... dolphins are mammals?
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yes. And sharks are fish. But both of them independently came upon the dorsal fin, the thing-
- STSam Tatam
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
... at the top. I don't know what it does. Presumably it steer? Is that what they steer with? I don't know.
- STSam Tatam
Stabilizes, stabilizes the shark and the dolphin. And you, and you're right. So both, both sort of two categorically different species of animal under the same environmental constraints, right? The need to survive, swim fast, capture prey in water, could ... What the, the term is convergently evolved on the dorsal fin. Um, so we can start to see two different species have done this in nature. How might we see two different species of organization do that when faced with the same challenge? It's not water, but it could be triggering action like we've spoken about. It could be enhancing loyalty. This is a, and, and what sort of constraints does that pose us? And therefore, what, what have we convergently uphold ... Uh, uh, uh, stumbled upon in, in, in other industries and categories?
- CWChris Williamson
The issue that you have in evolution is that the animals can't look at the features that other animals have and said, "Oh, that looks, that looks all right."
- STSam Tatam
"That looks great."
- CWChris Williamson
"Yeah, I'll have a bit of that."
- STSam Tatam
(laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Whereas obviously in business and marketing, you can do that.
- STSam Tatam
We can. We can.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, precisely. So a g- an example from my industry. I ran nightclubs for a very long time, and one of the things that you're trying to do there is generate excitement, anticipation, engagement, trust, social cohesion-
- STSam Tatam
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... status, all of that, from basically nothing.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Rory's idea of alchemy, this is whatever one step before that is. This is me creating something from nothing. This is like Big Bang Theory.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Because every different venue is doing the same thing. No matter how much you try and dress up nightlife-
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... it is people getting drunk in a room to music. That's it. And there-
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... you can change the price points and change the music and change the branding and do the whatever. And what we found, this was an insight I got from evolutionary psychology actually, the fact that humans are anticipatory beings. And a lot of the time it seems like we enjoy our anticipation of the event sometimes more than the actual event itself.
- STSam Tatam
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
So what we started to do in advance of Freshers Week when all of the new students would arrive, we would bring out these really protracted, um, launch sequences. Let's say that we're about to release a new event. We've got this new event that's coming up, and it's gonna be fun. We would do something big is coming teaser eight weeks before the event. Then maybe the venue that it's gonna be at or the day that it's gonna be on seven weeks before. And then there would be a full release video that's coming, and people would know when the full release video was coming. And then just this really drawn out launch procedure. And then in the build-up to that as well, we might release the room one DJs and the room two DJs, and then we're gonna have this thing and this thing and this thing. And I found that it really generated excitement and anticipation out of nowhere. And that's something that I've drawn across for the podcast as well now that I apply that. So this is cross-category too for me, I guess.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If I have a big guest coming up, like say that I'm bringing Jordan Peterson on the show, I'll tell people that I'm gonna record with him two months before he comes on the show.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- 16:50 – 27:05
Power of Simplification
- STSam Tatam
- CWChris Williamson
I flew back from Rome a couple of days ago with my mom, and one of the things that I was looking at was the printed ticket that I had. And I- I- I- lots of people will be checking in online, but if you do end up getting a printed ticket, the volume of information that's on there is absolutely insane. And I saw in your book that someone had simplified that by creating a sleeve that you slot the ticket into, and it refines down all of this information and it creates little windows.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And over the windows are gate, boarding time, seat number, perhaps something like that. First off, I do need to ask the question of why in a world where you get an iPhone in a case that has no instruction manual and no nothing else, you know, it's really th- the entire process has been refined and it's beautiful, why it is that all of this information needs to be printed on a piece of ticket.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It- it seems completely stupid, but I like the idea of the simplification there.
- STSam Tatam
But it's a halfway point. I mean, there's- and there's- it's- there's been a lot on- online recently about sort of human centric plane tickets and how we might change them and provide imagery because, I mean, airports are a wonderful context for behavioral scientists because you can never assume that language is a constant. You're speaking to people under stress and pressure where our sort of attentional resources are channeled. So it's a really- a really wonderful space. Um, but I- I love that example as- as a- as a hack, you know, it's midway point, but I use that in the book as an example, again, as just like the dolphin and the shark have converged upon the same solution...... you, uh, the, the, the image above that in the book is of a, of a, um, of a remote controller for a TV that someone's probably got around to their nan's house (laughs) who keeps turning on the Korean news and wondering, "How on earth can I get back to BBC One?" And, and they've literally just taped over all the buttons not to use. So they've simplified the remote control as a bit of a hack. Um, and Qatar Airways did it on purpose. And so in two different industries addressing the challenge of complexity reduction, they've sort of convergently evolved on the same solution. And I, uh, it's a, uh, you, you stumble across these in, in, in, in lots of different realms, and it's, um, it's a fun space.
- NANarrator
What was the problem with Google Glass?
- STSam Tatam
Well, the problem with Google Glass, I think, is they were, they were more hung up with the, the, uh, the ability of integrating technology that they missed the, the, some of the social challenges that they would be faced with. Not being able to see what the person in front of you might be looking at or exploring. I sort of quip in the book like, "It just takes one, one trip to the bathroom live streaming a trip to the urinal." (laughs) And that's the end of, that's the end of Google Glass. So it was sort of very focused on, on, on specs, and engineering solutions, and the wonders of technology that it failed to address some of the, the, the, the larger challenges of, of our evolved psychology of privacy, of, of trust, of purpose. What's interesting with Google Glass, I think once you've started to sort of shift it from being a, an all-encompassing social tool to a purposeful production aid, right, so I think Google Glass is now, or similar technologies, used in production roles. Um, it's, it's, it's starting to spike interest again, giving it a sort of clearly defined role. So you can address that the technology's still valuable if you give it a purpose. Um, uh, uh, and so that's one, and certainly in the early days of Google Glass, that, that, that tripped them up.
- NANarrator
What are people using it for in production?
- STSam Tatam
I think they're using it to look at, um, in ... I've, I've, I've written an article about sort of, um, like car manufacturing, so they can see, um, that they're able to identify parts and, and order parts on the spot. Uh, it's, it's this is to be used for that outcome. Um, then people are more comfortable wearing it for, for a shorter period of time for, for a clear outcome.
- NANarrator
Didn't you guys do something in Connecticut where you were trying to reduce people chopping their fingers off and dropping heavy stuff on their feet? That was in a warehouse or something as well.
- STSam Tatam
That's right. That was in a big, a big factory in Con- in Connecticut.
- NANarrator
What was that? What did you do?
- STSam Tatam
Uh, well, so, so that was, um ... so we're looking at safety. It was safety as a, as a, as a, as a key challenge. Um, and, and it's one of the examples is a great ... for, for me, it's a great example of an e- evolved idea. Um, one of the problems when we move into, into factories and, and factory safety is that we're talking about individuals who work long shifts over a long amount of time with what is often high-repetition work. Um, so every time we went to a factory, I think someone received like a, a, a 30-year milestone. So we're talking about like people who are working in the same factory for a long time, doing quite specific tasks. And the challenge with safety and risk-taking is the more familiar you are within an environment, the more risks you take. You sort of switch off a little bit. I think a, a third of car accidents occur at a, a mile from your home. I mean, we can all sort of identify that. We just (laughs) we're already like halfway sort of taking the tie off and, and, and, and getting ready for ... but we sort of, our, our brain switches off. Uh, and this is a problem obviously in factories, when irrespective of your familiarity, that circular saw is still gonna chop off your fingers. Um, so what we actually borrowed from, so the, s- the, the step to the side was some insights around boxers. Um, and, uh, actually with the, uh, the Rio Olympics were the first Olympics to ban men from wearing headgear in boxing, 'cause they found actually men are more likely to put themselves in a vulnerable position, more likely to actually experience a concussion (laughs) if you had a headgear on. Uh, so they changed the policy in Rio to actually remove the headgears, and in, in the recent Commonwealth Games, I watched again and, and, and the men didn't have, have, have headgear on. Um, so, so what we needed to do actually is pose a, a, a challenging question to heads of health and safety. Rather than saying, "How can we keep your workers safe?" the question was, "How can we make your workers feel at greater risk, feel a bit more exposed?" Right? If you could get someone to feel more exposed, you're sort of naturally more likely to take care of yourself. So what we did was develop a series of, of personal protective equipment that had ... so if we're looking at gloves, we created a ser- a, a set of gloves that had skeletons on the outside. So you could see just it, it, it r- removed the, the, um, the sense of your fingers being an extension of the tool and a reminder that it is a vulnerable extension of you. Um, and, and we ran some experiments. It, it, working in safety is a, a fascinating area that is lo- I think there's a lot of work for psychology and creativity in safety. It's just a, a space that sometimes you would never expect Ogilvy to be in, in, in, in, uh, in these kinds of spaces, but there's a huge role for us. Um, and we found that, um, people wearing, in this experimental paradigm, people wearing, um, the gloves were more likely to feel vulnerable. So we were able to have a correlation between vulnerability and risk-taking. So those that wore the gloves were more likely to feel vulnerable. Um, and those who wore the gloves were, um, felt, um, uh, uh, uh, a, a greater risk of, of, of cuts from, um, like low-level injury like a box cutter, for example, which sort of makes sense. If you're looking at a circular saw, you're still gonna chop your fingers off. It's not gonna (laughs) it's not gonna
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- STSam Tatam
... you in. But actually, it sort of we had a medical grade significance looking at, at, at different injuries compared to just normal hands and compared to normal gloves. So it's, again, a nice, small shift borrowed from boxing that we can bring into, into safety.
- NANarrator
What about humpback whales? You looked at them.
- STSam Tatam
... humpback whales. We looked at... So, so humpback whales is, is an example, in, in the book I explore of biomimicry. Um, if I'm talking about the, the same example, Chris, tell me if, if not. So humpback whales, um, have been a, a, a piece of inspiration for a business called Whale Power. Um, so Whale Power is an organization that have found that you can create wind turbines that increase the lift and reduce the drag if you borrow from the shape of humpback whale fins that have these things called tubercles on them. They have these little bumps. Um, so it's a lovely example of the field of, of biomimicry. And we mentioned before that, um, animals can't look at each other and go, "Oh, I'd like a bit of those feathers." (laughs) Like, "Oh, I could do some damage with that beak if I only, if only I had that beak." Um, they, they can't do it, but we can. You know, and so, so biomimicry is a whole field that looks at borrowing, stealing from evolved biology in nature and a- and adapting it to human problems, whether that's a wind turbine like a humpback whale, whether that's, um, looking at mosquito proboscis to make pain-free needles, whether it's looking at-
- NANarrator
No way. Is that what they did?
- STSam Tatam
It's cool, man. And, and looking at the hair of rabbits to create air cooling systems, more efficient air cooling systems. Um, so it's, it's one of those... One, I mean, it's a deep vortex if you get into it, but it's, it's super cool.
- NANarrator
(laughs)
- STSam Tatam
And, and, and for me, discovering biomimicry was the trigger for the book. As I thought, there's biomimicry in design, in, in architecture, all the way back to Velcro being inspired by the spurs, um, on, on, uh, o- on a dog.
- NANarrator
Is that where it came from?
- STSam Tatam
Um, but they... Yeah. So, I al- always forget the name of the gentleman who wa- wa- walking his dog every day and kept having to, to, to remove the spurs, looked at them under the microscope and, and invented Velcro. So all these things that feel like groundbreaking, revolutionary innovation, right? Um, is actually an adapted solution. Um, the, the, the classic Henry Ford production line was just a, um, he, he, he borrowed that from a, a slaughterhouse in Chicago. But instead of having cars on a pulley that built, they had cows on a pulley that were dismantled. He just reversed it. (laughs) And again, it's like the, the, the radical innovation of Henry Ford is like... It's just a butcher's disassembly line in reverse. So biomimicry is, is a, is a big stepping off point for, for evolutionary ideas. But again, instead of borrowing from biological solutions like the hair of a jackrabbit or the, the, the beak of a kingfisher to make the, the Shinkansen 500, um, more, more efficient going through, through tunnels, we look at evolved psychological solutions. We look at the, the cognitive realm and what we can borrow from that.
- 27:05 – 35:41
Solving the Bullet Train’s Issues
- STSam Tatam
- NANarrator
What was the problem with the bullet train before they fixed it?
- STSam Tatam
So the problem with the bullet tra- train was actually a, a sound problem. Um, so the challenge was to, um, reduce the time that, uh... And, and this is the Shinkansen 5, the Shinkansen line that, that stretches between Tokyo and Osaka. Um, so the challenge was set to reduce the time that it took the train to, to, to pass that distance. They had, um, experimental cars that could actually drive fast enough to manage it. But the faster the cars went, the more loud, the, the more noise they produced. Um, so it became an auditory challenge, not a, not a speed challenge. Um, so, uh, there, there are two main, main problems on, on the Shinkansen. The first was a part of the train known as the pantograph. So it connects the train to the wires overhead. And as the train increased its speed, it gave a sort of a loud whooshing sound because of the turbulence created by these sort of essentially water wings on top. So what they did, uh, and a gentleman called Eiji Nakatsu was in charge of the, of the program, um, and he was fortunately an avid bird watcher. So fascinated with birds and fascinated with engineering, and these two loves came together on, on this project. So to reduce the, the sound of the, on the pantograph, what they did was borrow from the owl. So the feathers of an owl. So the owl's a nocturnal predator. It's evolved to be able to sort of swoop down in darkness and stun its prey in virtual silence. So it's... And it does this because of what's known as micro-serrations on its feathers. So if you imagine sort of small serrations on the feathers that chop up the turbulence. So instead of having this large whooshing sound, now you've created these micro-turbulences that, that dissipated the sound. So essentially they created micro-serrations on the pantograph. Uh, and the second bird of influence on the pantograph was the Adélie penguin. So it's, that's what's known as a spindle shape, a bit like a football. You know those tiny penguins that you often see sort of trying to escape a leopard seal? That's an Adélie. And they borrowed from the shape of the Adélie of, of, to, to shape the pantograph and, and address that specific, um, issue. Um, but the second problem on, on the Shinkansen was, um, the many tunnels, um, that exist on the line. So again, a bit like a, a, a shark and a dolphin have to address the environmental constraint of water, this train needed to address the environmental constraint of like a series of tunnels. How can we penetrate a series of tunnels without creating what's known as a tunnel boom? It's a bit like a, a shot of a gun or a pistol being fired. Um, and in this instance, this is where they borrowed from the kingfisher. So the kingfisher beak has evolved, uh, over, over a millennia to have a really interesting sort of diamond shape. So it's got a really smooth, um, angle from the, the sort of the head to the tip of the beak, but it does so in an interesting diamond shape. Um, and it's able to... Because of this, it's able to sort of go from the air to the water to stun its prey. I think it's a substance 800 times denser with- without a, without an issue. So by, again, adapting the shape of the kingfisher beak onto the Shinkansen, they overcame the challenge of the, of the tunnel booms. So it's, uh... And, and I love that story. Again, it's a classic example of biomimicry, but it shows that we can do this on purpose. Um, but the, the issue with this narrative is if it wasn't for the gentleman Eiji Nakatsu, that might not have happened. I mean, someone who was, who was sort of deep into his understanding of birds-... how can we make this more systematic? So it's not just so we are able to link, if you've got a, if you've got a challenge with aerodynamics, here's a battery of solutions that you can explore that are, that address this. Um, whether we have time or, or interest to ex- explore, but the next stepping stone then is, is looking at systematic innovation of evolutionary solutions. Uh, and that story, um, is a, is an engineering story. Um, and a gentleman called Genrich Altshuller, who was a, a Soviet inventor, um, w- was quickly sort of snapped up by the, the, the Russian Navy in the Stalinist period, um, to, to work in their innovation hub and, and, and essentially was looking at patents all day, going through the, the, the naval innovation hub and said, "All these ... (laughs) None of these are, are, are innovations." You know what I mean? "Um, these are, these are all just similar solutions to problems in different disparate parts of the Navy." And he since then worked with some colleagues to assess 200,000 patents and identified them on their level of, of inventiveness and found that li- as little as 1% is sort of true innovation. But what Altshuller did in his model, TRIZ, um, was start to then map out these patterns of solutions. So just as you can have species of animals that are codified by the presence of a spinal cord or warm blood or gills, he started to do it with engineering solutions. So one inventive principle is the concept of a nested doll, a bit like a, a classic Russian doll. Um, and if you imagine that, then you can start to think of a telescopic camera lens is an example of a nested doll. A retractable tape measure is an example of a nested doll. Um, a nail polish that has the brush that goes in the bottle is an example of a nested doll. So we can start to see these patterns of solutions, um, in engineering. And the final piece, Chris, before I le- and I'll let you get a word in, I promise, is, is how you then bring it together. Um, so what they do in TRIZ is they've created a matrix, um, and the matrix, the X and the Y axis look at, um, measurable attributes like volume, length, uh, weight, um, uh, durability, um, a- and, and, and you can map then, if I'm looking to increase the volume of something without increasing its size, for example, then you look at, at the, at the, at the matrix, that'll give you nested doll. So you increase the volume without increasing the size. So you're faced with challenges then, how do I make a, uh, an umbrella big enough to cover the human body but small enough to fit in a handbag? And you look at that on the matrix and it gives you a starting point for innovation. How do I make a bulletproof jacket strong enough to stop a bullet but not so heavy that people can't wear it? You look at the matrix and it gives you a, a sort of a short list of the principles to start from. And that's what we begin to do in evolutionary ideas, again, in psychology. Um, but rather than size and length and weight and volume, we look at things like trust and we look at things like, um, decision making. How do we, how do we, how do we aid decisions without limiting choice? How do we, how do we trigger action without forcing response? How do we boost loyalty without increasing incentives? How do we improve experiences without changing their duration? And for each, similar to TRIZ, we can start to say, well, here are some psychological principles that you should start with. So we go back to our nightclub conundrum and go, well, that's maybe fundamentally a trust conundrum. And if we look at the chapter on or the, I don't want to keep hammering on about the book, but if we look at the discipline and think about, okay, how do we increase trust without changing the truth? This isn't about lying to people. This is about using what we've got, uh, to be more effective. Um, and we look at the inventive principles or the psychological inventive principles, funnily enough, they're exactly what we've talked about. It's signaling. I mean, what's a small signal that can help increase believability that this is going to be the night of my life? What's social proof? You know what I mean? Um, so as you said about q- hacking or I love the term where you went from four, four, four abreast to one abreast, you know what I mean? That's social proof, we're boosting trust. And then the third concept is operational transparency. So anything might be better as having like a live feed or, or, um, or you sort of, you can see h- here are the kegs rolling up right now. Or, or, or maybe what you're doing and building anticipation is again making people feel like they can see the work that's happening behind the scenes to help them believe that it's going to be an awesome night.
- CWChris Williamson
I think-
- STSam Tatam
And if we can start there, then we're away.
- CWChris Williamson
... I think that the operational transparency thing's a, a, an interesting one because part of what you're trying to do is make the event sufficiently exclusive that people can't get access to it without being there. So I know operational transparency, some examples of that would be a pizzeria that has flour out front on, on the window sill or whatever that engenders people to believe that they're making their own dough. They still might be buying it in, but they've just got some-
- STSam Tatam
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... bags of flour outside. Uh, but yeah, I, I wonder what ... perhaps operational transparency would have been included in, here we are booking the DJs and here we are dressing the venue.
- STSam Tatam
Yes. Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
Here's some photos of the décor. You know, this isn't just, uh, a, you're going to walk into an empty room, nothing's going to be going on.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- 35:41 – 44:38
How to Be Better at Making Decisions
- STSam Tatam
- CWChris Williamson
One of the contradictions that you've been talking about there, you say that inn- innovation is the resolution of these contradictions. One of the interesting ones that I've been playing around with a lot recently is how to aid decisions without limiting choice, because Barry Schwartz says the paradox of choice is something that I can't unsee anymore. And I keep-
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
It just keeps on arising in front of me. For the people that haven't seen it, it's this great TED Talk that you should absolutely listen to from maybe 10 or 15 years ago. Barry uses this example of all of the different types of jeans that are available now compared with 50 years ago, there was one type of jeans. You go in, you buy a type of jeans. The utilitarian rationalists would say, well, if you get to have as many choices and options as possible, that allows you to maximize the utility that you can get because it is much more precise toward exactly what you wanted, but it doesn't account for the fact that humans have loss aversion and choice anxiety and all of this stuff that just, they can't bear the decision and it causes paralysis by analysis. People walk out of the store having bought no jeans and also feeling ashamed at the fact that they couldn't choose a pair as opposed to going in and just having one. So the paradox of decision versus choice is something I think that is really prevalent given how many decisions and opportunities and options people have now.... so what are some of the solutions? How can we help people to make a decision-
- STSam Tatam
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
... without limiting their choice too much?
- STSam Tatam
S- so if we imagine our sort of, uh, uh, matrix then, so if we think of aiding decisions without limiting choice, um, then there are three areas that... and, and, and this is the, the, the start of the conversation, not the end of the conversation, but three areas we explore looking at, at defaults, looking at, at, at prompts or, or helping people to actually, um, sort of guiding people in their decision-making, and, and finally chunking. So to start with defaults, so defaults are, uh, we often see defaults in or think about defaults in sort of subscriptions. So you're automatically subscri- subscribed if you say yes, you know, and it's already pre-ticked that box. In most circumstances, we find that, again, people have sort of overloaded with information, that if we can create a system or create an environment that elicits our desired choice or, or c- an individual's beneficial choice as a direct outcome, then that's setting the default. Um, so I think in, in, uh, in, in Disneyland, they changed the default menu on, on the kids' meals from, from chips to apples and from soda to orange juice. I mean, people could still order soda. People could still, um, buy, buy chips, but the default, it's, the default was, was now apples and juice. And it changed the caloric s- r- e- uh, uh, intake s-significantly, just by changing the default, the way that it's set up, and because it requires someone to make an alternative decision. (laughs) And, and there's a few things about defaults. One is that it, yes, it's sort of the line of best fit. The other is that it almost feels like it's, it's creating a norm. Like if you do this, you're some sort of, s- sort of deviant. "What? You want chips for your kids?" You, you know what I mean? (laughs) And even simply like, uh, in, in the book, I reference, um, a, uh, like a tap faucet in a, in a shower somewhere. It was either in Ja- in Japan or in, in the UK. The UK is an amazing place. Every shower is different. I mean, it's, it's, it blows my mind (laughs) when you go to someone's house in the UK. (laughs) First thing you need to ask for shower instructions. But it had a single number, it said 38 degrees, you know, 38 degrees, and then it was sort of warmer or colder than that. But it just said 38 degrees. And then you say like, "Well, if I don't want 38, like I'm breaking the, what does, what does that say about me?" You know what I mean? So it just creates this assumption that that's the desired outcome. So, so long and short of it is that, um, to aid decision-making without limiting choice, we can start to change the defaults. Um, so it, that's a default either that, that, that helps someone have, um, m- more apples than they do have chips in, in a restaurant all the way through to research that's looked at organ donation and opt in and opt out forms. Th- the second area that we explore there in, in decision-making is actually starting to, to help, um, pre-fill some of the information for people in advance, so people can sort of see, uh, or, or, or remove what is a difficult decision. Um, the, the, the example I open up on, um... and it's not the same as Coke or Pepsi kind of choice. It's sort of, uh, w- what am I gonna do in this scenario? Um, the example I, I, I start with in the- in the book is an instance, um, when a best mate's, um, mother sadly passed away and I was about to send flowers, and I was sort of at that point in the, the online journey to leave a, a message. And I'm terrible at those things. Um, but there was an option to have just some prompts or some inspirat- just a, a couple of small prompts that was like, just help kick it off, you know (laughs) , just aided that, aided that process. Um, and it was a lovely example of where I sh- I could have bought flowers, gone through with that, or I might have been stuck in this paralysis of a different sort of complexity paralysis, more of a social paralysis. Um, we see that through to young children playing puzzles where we sort of help them to decide which piece goes where by embossing the, the image in the bottom of the puzzle. Um, we can see, oh, that's the giraffe, because actually there's a little picture of the giraffe in the space too, you know what I mean? So we can just, we can just see that. And that goes all the way through to pre-filling forms for university enrollment. So just giving someone a little nudge in the right direction, or just prompting someone with name or, or email rather than two empty boxes. I mean, that's the extreme of it. Um, that, that can help us. And the last, um, is, is around chunking. And I'm racing through these at a- at a million miles an hour, but I want to sort of co- cover them if I can, is looking at chunking. And we can use chunking in two different ways to, to aid decision-making. Um, one is sort of as we expect. So, so chunking is a term used to sort of breaking up large pieces of information into smaller meaningful chunks. We often see this, um, in mobile phone numbers where they're sort of chunked into sort of four-digit series so you sort of remember the pattern. I think the UK postal codes are, uh, uh, I think the, the- Royal Mail did a survey that said actually many people find their postcodes more easy to remember than their spouse's birthday or their anniversary. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- STSam Tatam
They're designed to be memorable based on how they're chunked. But if we think of chunking, often go to like, how does a restaurant help you aid decisions? You know, they could just list everything alphabetically. You know what I mean? So you'd have the chicken after the, after the beef, as I go back to my... but, and then you'd have the- the ice cream before the, the, the... um, uh, again, tap dancing with examples here. But it doesn't meaningfully chunk up the menu. But, but what they do do is chunk it up into entrees, mains, desserts. They might even chunk it up into the proteins, so you have chicken, seafood, or beef. So they chunk it in a meaningful way. When you get your, um, your flat pack from IKEA, it doesn't just say, "Okay, now make it." You know what I mean? It, it chunks down the process into- to meaningful steps. So that's one way in which we can aid decision, chunking up large pieces of information, uh, into smaller meaningful pieces. The, the element of chunking that I find even more interesting is when you actually start to, to make what is a deceptively simple choice a larger decision. So you actually A, add chunks, right? So, um, the- the best example that I've come across of, of this is looking at the presumption of innocence in, in legal cases.... um, and the burden of proof. Uh, and oftentimes you might imagine, well, they're either guilty or not guilty, uh, but what many, um, legal firms do is they actually just map up the- the burden of proof. So it's- it's sort of innocent to highly likely innocent. There's a- there's a list of sort of nine steps you need to go through before you actually go to guilty beyond reasonable doubt. So it sort of expands this decision-making process. So you actually need to go through nine levels of innocence before you get to guilt, right? So it's actually sort of chunked up a- what seems like a binary decision into multiple, multiple stages. In the physical realm, we see that on the London Tube, we see the- sort of the designated standing areas on the tube. Um, what is the- what is the area that's deemed to be safe? And what is the area that's a little bit dangerous? And what is the- sort of the mind the gap going? That's just- that's paint, whereas the same- it's, it's this, it's the same platform, but it's been chunked down in its levels of dangerous. You, you, you look at a hypertension chart, they break down normal into low normal and high normal, right? It's almost normal, but they've just created a level of like high normal, so you better start worrying, like don't get too complacent here high normal. (laughs) And, and I just- I love that, when- when we discussed about creating value or defining a world to help people to navigate, um, there- it's, it's, it's a rich, there's a rich world out there. I feel like- I mean, this is the part I feel like I'm doing a lot of talking here, Chris. I hope it's okay. It's wonderful to speak with you.
- CWChris Williamson
That's why you are here, Sam. That's why you're the specialist.
- STSam Tatam
Good.
- CWChris Williamson
You- you've just mentioned about restaurants and restaurant experiences.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
I mentioned that I'd just gone to Rome. I noticed
- 44:38 – 51:48
Why do Rich People Drink Sparkling Water?
- CWChris Williamson
something for a while that all of my rich friends, as soon as they ascended out of the working class and into the lower echelons of the beautiful stratosphere that is the middle class, all started drinking sparkling water when we went out for dinner.
- STSam Tatam
Right, right, right.
- CWChris Williamson
And I haven't got a fucking clue what's going on. And I was saying to them, "What- what is it? What is it? Is there some secret mason society handshake-"
- STSam Tatam
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
"... thing that goes on where everybody accepts that you've got to start ordering San Pellegrino as soon as you get to the table?" And then I found myself ashamedly at the start of this year, I found myself ordering a Topo Chico, which is a Mexican sparkling water. And it's- if you think that you don't like sparkling water, I challenge you to have a Topo Chico and think that it's not good.
- STSam Tatam
Topo Chico.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that was a, a Petersonian, uh, solution because, uh, Jordan and Michaela and the rest of their family are allergic to everything. So for them to have an alcoholic drink, they need to have vodka with... well, what can we have it with? They need to have it with something, but water would be insane.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But somehow a vodka Topo Chico just doesn't feel too, too ridiculous. My point being, what do you think is going on? Why is it that rich people like to drink sparkling water? And didn't you look at the top of a San Pellegrino, the lid of a San Pellegrino as well?
- STSam Tatam
Yeah. Oh, I, I think there, I mean, there could be two sides to this. One is the individual, the other is the restaurant. So I th- I think there's, again, if we're talking about signals of opulence and, and wealth, like paying for water sort of is, is, is itself, it's like the peacock feather. It's like this waste that I can afford, you know what I mean? Is a signal of my gravitas and fitness, right? So at an individual level, paying for water might provide sort of more social status than, than it does hydration. The other side could be actually the restaurants that, um, you frequent with, um, f- friends in, in the, the stratospheric middle class, um, have a, have a placebo choice. They might say, "Do, do you want Perrier or sparkling?" You know (laughs) so they don't even offer you tap. So either way, you're having sparkling, or you're having, you're having bottled water of some sort. Um, so it could be, it could be driven by the restaurant, it could be driven by the individual. But, um, but I- it's, it's... what's interesting is that it happens, it's predictable, you know what I mean? And, and if you understand whether or not it's, again, this opulence of, um, of, of, uh, of paying for something slightly needlessly, then that provides these, these evolved sort of status cues and...
- CWChris Williamson
Well, again, my background in nightlife, conspicuous consumption was a, uh, very, very common, you know, the, the biggest bottle of vodka, you, you know that-
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... five, five guys aren't even going to be able to get through half of it by the end of the evening. And it's- they're pouring it over their watches, or they're giving away glasses for free, or they're spraying champagne. This is all conspicuous consumption happening, right?
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And I w- I wonder whether, yeah, the, the unnecessary expensive... you see this with Voss. Have you s- do you know Voss?
- STSam Tatam
Yeah. Beautiful, beautiful packaging
- NANarrator
Yeah.
- STSam Tatam
... for water.
- CWChris Williamson
Well-designed bottle. It's very-
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... standout.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Why would you need a standout bottle of, of water? It's just water. Why isn't it more utilitarian? It's completely circular, which means it's like a cylinder... which means it's actually-
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... quite difficult to pack away. If you were to ever take it anywhere, it would be easier to have something like a Volvic, which has got maybe rounded edges, but is more kind of cubic and rectangular. Well, the, the reason is that everybody knows, even if they haven't seen the logo, if they see the silhouette of the bottle, they know that that's a bottle-
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of water that costs seven pounds, so-
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... that makes sense. What... did... am I right in thinking you looked at something to do with the lid of San Pellegrino, or did I make that up?
- STSam Tatam
Well, we often explore... we often t- uh, um, as a, as an organization, we so- often talk about the, the lid of the San Pellegrino, the, the, the costly signal, again, the, the waste of the tin foil on a San Pellegrino. Again, it's, it's just a s- a subtle, a subtle nod to the fact that we've invested en- enough in this product to justify the investment of a little bit more to have it sealed off with, with aluminium. That changed recently. I think they've actually taken away the, the, the, the tin foil in recent designs.
- 51:48 – 1:06:45
Optimising Duration & Experience
- CWChris Williamson
that I thought that was super interesting to me was improving experience without changing duration. Because our passive, um, subjective experience of time is something that I've always been pretty fascinated with, and the way that we can speed that up and slow it down. Rory's example-
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... about the innovation of Uber wasn't the fact that you could order it from anywhere, it's that you knew how long it was going to be until the, uh, taxi arrived.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
I'm pretty sure that Ogilvy... Was it you guys that got brought in to reduce complaints at security in Heathrow? And you did that by putting-
- STSam Tatam
That's right.
- CWChris Williamson
... signs saying, "60 minutes from here, 45 minutes from here, 30 minutes from here"? And previously, it was an engineering problem that was going to be, oh, well, we need to put w- w- we can have a different type of scanning system, and the belt can go at four miles per hour quicker, and we'll have whatever. No, it's not an engineering problem, it's a psychology problem. So using your new framework, your TRIZ mapped across onto psychology, what about experience and duration did you learn?
- STSam Tatam
Well, the, I mean, the first thing that I learned is what, is what you touched on in the beginning, um, that was a fascinating part of research in the book, was about the malleability of, of our experience of time. Um, all the way through to looking into species, um, that a, a fly experiences time much faster than, than we do, and, uh, and, uh, and a whale experiences it more slowly than we do. And it sort of makes sense-
- CWChris Williamson
How do they, how do they know that? How do they know how fast a fly or-
- STSam Tatam
Well, so, so what they did, so have you ever seen, have you ever seen like a, um, a TV being filmed by a camera, you know? And then the camera picks up the flickers of the TV?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- STSam Tatam
So, so f- uh, I don't understand the technology behind it, but the processing speed of the camera is maybe faster than this... so you, so you see what the eyes can't, essentially. So what they did was they, they put electrodes on a series of, of many different animals, um, and, and showed them different speeds of flickering light. And if, if an animal could see the flicker, then that could show their processing speed were faster, right? Um, because I think that's, I think the... and I don't know this is a fact, but I think they said that dogs might be able to see the flicker, but we can't see the flicker. So, so, uh, I'm, I'm not 100% on, on that, but that's the, that's the way in which they explored how, how they could do this. Um, and, and it sort of ma- it, it makes sense from an evolution perspective as well. Like, it's no benefit for a whale to see the world faster than it can act upon. It, it, if it sees... (laughs) If a whale was to see the world as fast as a fly, it would just be like, sort of depressed all the time, 'cause it can't do anything about it. Um, whereas a hawk needs to see the world faster than a whale because it can take action on that. So, so having these differences in, in, in, in this species', um, experience of time is, was I found a sort of a fascinating piece. But then when we look even within our own species, um, that time can be experienced very differently. And a couple of different things that, that, that can change our experience of time, um, sort of novel events, stress and pressure, um, and familiarity. And, uh, uh, and so, the more familiar, as I said, we, we become earlier, sort of the more we begin to sw- switch off, our attentional resources tend to go down, we don't tend to absorb as much information. Our brain is not taking as many photos all the time. It doesn't need to, because we're in a, uh, we're, we're in a familiar environment. Whereas we're in a novel environment or under, under stress and pressure or, or in danger, our brain's looking to capture every element to help us to survive. And that, that, that, that focus of resources extends our experience of time. And they find this sort of experimentally through different paradigms. One thing's called the oddball effect. So you might see...... a series of cows flicking on a screen, and then they'll throw up an apple, I mean. And people will say that the apple was on the screen longer than the cows, and it wasn't. It was the e- exact same time, but because your sort of brain starts to switch off and not need to read as much information of the cows, this new image of an apple sort of focuses your attention ex- and, and, and s- stretches that time. Um, whereas we also can forget putting out the rubbish and catching a train for the gazillionth time. So, I found that, anyway, just broadly a f- fascinating area. So, a couple of things, um, that we look at. One is about expectation, um, that b- having an expectation of an outcome where you can change the experience duration. So, um, if we're waiting, um, without, um, information on coming, then that time feels extended, uh, and we feel uncomfortable, we feel stressed, therefore we're laying more of these, of these memories, the time feels ex- e- extended. Um, when we, we are having a sense of expectation of what to experience, then that time goes faster. So one... A- and my partner and I were talking about this recently actually. We did a, we did a... it was a really dangerous bush walk too. We have a four-year-old and a one-year-old, and we got s- we got sort of halfway and thought, "Geez, I wish we didn't do this." (laughs) But on, on the way back, we sort of thought that was faster than the way out. And there's, it's, it's called the return trip effect, and often people experience that the outgoing journey is longer than the, the homeward journey. Um, so you might be, feel like it takes a long time to get to a particular d- destination, but it's faster coming back. And one of the, the justifications for this is now we have set our expectations to how long the trip is, um, we know how far we're gonna go, so it's gonna be faster when we're coming home again. So, so providing someone with a sense of expectation of outcome, again, whether, whether it's 60 minutes, 40 minutes, and we can start to, to shift that, I think, um, in, in Disneyland, they, they tend to overinflate the expected times and say you wait for an hour but it's really 40 minutes, 'cause you're just sort of shaping expectations. Um, so expectation management is, is, is the first. The, the, the second is basically just engaging the brain, um, with activities. So, so one of the biggest, um, culprits of ex- sort of d- e- experience duration is boredom. And again, another fascinating, um, one whereas when we're bored, we often think that we're sort of just like doing nothing, but when we're bored, we're actually really stressed. Uh, our, our, our brain and our body is telling us to do something else, you know? It's, it's, it's, uh, because we have less, um, reproductive or social benefits of sitting there doing nothing. So, when we're actually bored, we're really stressed. When we're stressed, time slows down. So, it's like a double whammy. So, just engaging the brain, and whether that's the classic, um, mirrors on a, in an elevator, you know, (laughs) that help people to sort of do their... to look at their makeup or do their tie, um, that's, uh, that's a, a great example of just engaging, engaging the brain. We can see elevators around the world putting in little games and things like that now just to keep us occupied while we're waiting or while we're traveling. Now, all the way to the extreme of the Eurostar, um, that, um, created a, a, a wonderful AI mask for kids riding between London and Paris, where as you go under the tunnel, you put the sort of, the ma- the ma- the mask on, and, um, and you're transported to this foreign world under the s- under the sea. And before you know it, you've popped up on the other side. So, rather than sitting there bored, you're just sort of engaging the brain, tricking it into, to believing that it's experiencing some other sort of social, social benefit. Um, and the last i- is looking at, at the, the, what's known as the peak-end effect, the, the peak and, and how it, how it ends. And funnily enough, this was also brought up over the, over the last week with my partner when we talked about (laughs) our, our trip and the, and the peak, um, experience, um, uh, w- was certainly this bush walk. But we tend to remember events based on their peak, how extremely positive or negative they are and, and how they end. Um, and so if we can start to manufacture more peaks and, and positive endings, and that's not necessarily lifting the average experience from a six to a seven, that's finding out what are some opportunities to sprinkle in some more tens? Then we can, again, um, boost the experience without actually changing its duration.
- CWChris Williamson
Another nightlife example for you here.
- STSam Tatam
Please.
- CWChris Williamson
We, we used to d... So, uh, during the evening, we would have an events schedule. The schedule would be stuff like confetti drop at midnight and balloon drop at 12:30 and stage games at 1:15 or whatever.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so that was peaks, right? And the peaks are often we leave that up to the DJ mostly, that combined with a little bit of production. But one of the things we realized is if we gave people a little, a little treat on the way out, that would maximize the end effect as well, because everybody has to leave.
- STSam Tatam
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And some people are leaving early because they've bagged off with a, uh, partner for the night or maybe because they've had a little bit too much to drink so they don't maybe need one.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And we actually managed to combine two really great strategies here. One of the issues you have in most cities is that nightclubs are not a million miles away from residential areas. And although the nightclubs themselves will be sufficiently soundproofed to avoid leakage going out above the decibel level that is for the noise pollution, you can't mandate the same for the people that leave. The patrons that leave go outside and they start doing football chants and they start screaming and shouting at each other and recording TikToks. So, what we did to combine both of these was we gave people lollipops on the way out, just nice little lolliprops, but, and there was someone handing them to them rather than the bucket, 'cause the bucket just didn't feel like a, a nice experience. It was a pretty girl or a good-looking lad and he would be handing out, "Oh, there you go. There's a lollipop." The lollipop was the end effect. It made them feel like they'd been well-treated. It was given out by somebody that left a good lasting impression.
- STSam Tatam
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And because you're sucking on a lollipop, you're not gonna start chanting because you've got some sugar in your mouth.
- STSam Tatam
Yes. Wonderful.
- CWChris Williamson
So, we managed to come up with a solution for that as well.
- STSam Tatam
Perfect. Uh, that's a cracker, and again, uh, th- th- and this is what I find 'cause I've, I've not explored the, the world of, of, uh, optimizing an, an evening at a nightclub and I think that's-
- CWChris Williamson
Sam, you should do. This is where you're missing.
- STSam Tatam
... now we should.... but having a, having a balloon drop, I mean, that's a, that's a, that's a wonderful, like, again, peak memorable moment.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, fuck. Sorry.
- STSam Tatam
Um-
- 1:06:45 – 1:07:31
Where to Find Sam
- STSam Tatam
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Sam Tatum, ladies and gentlemen. If people want to check out the stuff that you do, where should they go?
- STSam Tatam
Uh, look at me on, on, uh, on, on LinkedIn, on, on Twitter. I think it's S_Tatum, T-A-T-A-M. Uh, if you're interested, check out the book Evolutionary Ideas on Amazon, all good booksellers. Um, it's been a, a labor of love and, and really fun to sort of talk through some of the elements of it. I've really enjoyed this conversation, mate. Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Sam, I appreciate you. Cheers, mate. (instrumental music) What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.
Episode duration: 1:07:31
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode aoK36Fz7xuM
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome