Fixing The Most Violent Countries On Earth | Rachel Kleinfeld

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   (wind blows) Ladies and gentlemen,…

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      (wind blows) Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Rachel Kleinfeld, Modern Wisdom, how are you today?

   2. RKRachel Kleinfeld0:12

      Very well. Great to be here, Chris.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:14

      Uh, I'm really excited to speak to you today. It's a, a turbulent time in politics and the, the 21st century for governments trying to make themselves work effectively, so I think it's gonna be a, a, a really interesting conversation. I'm reading your bio here. A senior fellow of the Carnegie Endowment for In- International Peace, and the founding CEO of the Truman National Security Project. Is that right?

   4. RKRachel Kleinfeld0:39

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson0:40

      Those sound like situations where there's lots of serious stuff happening all the time.

   6. RKRachel Kleinfeld0:46

      (laughs) Well, there's certainly a lot of attempts to, uh, have serious conversations about serious issues, yes.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:52

      (laughs)

   8. RKRachel Kleinfeld0:53

      Um, but, you know, the, the, the world of think tanks in Washington, D.C. is, uh, is one of advi- advising, so we advise our government, we advise your government in Britain.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:03

      Mm-hmm.

   10. RKRachel Kleinfeld1:04

       Um, and all around the world, trying to, trying to make a difference.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:07

       Yeah, uh, something tells me that you don't get much time to just, like, crack jokes and kind of chill out. It's probably a lot of serious stuff.

   12. RKRachel Kleinfeld1:16

       Uh, we have our fun, but, um, you know, I'm not, I'm not present there very often. I spend an awful lot of time at 40,000 feet, so, um, you know, flying from place to place to ... so my fun is generally on the fly in different countries doing, you know, eating street food in Afghanistan or, uh, or riding lorries in Bangladesh. That kind of thing.

   13. CWChris Williamson1:36

       That's pretty cool. So, we're, we're gonna talk about A Savage Order, which is your new book.

   14. RKRachel Kleinfeld1:41

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:42

       Um, can you tell us, uh, why you started writing this and, and what did you want to find out when you began?

   16. RKRachel Kleinfeld1:49

       Uh, absolutely. So, when you work in a think tank, eh, there's a lot of serious talk as you've discussed, but there can also be a lot of talk that doesn't really go anywhere. And so, I wanted to see could we do anything about the problem of violence? I spent all my time reading about it, thinking about it. How do we end conflicts? What do we do about violence? And it turned out, we knew very little about what actually worked. And so, I pulled together a big conference. I brought together the experts on electoral violence, on organized crime, on gang violence. You know, you have it, we had them all in a room together. If a bomb had gone off in that room, who knows? You know (laughs) .

   17. CWChris Williamson2:23

       (laughs) It would have been ruined.

   18. RKRachel Kleinfeld2:24

       It's a, a massive, uh, brain power on violence would have been ended. Um, and I said, you know, "What do we know?" And we put together a literature review on here's all that we knew, which was quite a lot. We, we had a great deal of knowledge, actually, about how you fight gangs, how you get better policing, all sorts of things. Um, and then I said, "Okay, well, how would you get a corrupt police force in X country to adopt these ideas?" And, you know, the room just went silent, and I thought, "Okay. That's the problem I need to focus on for this book."

   19. CWChris Williamson2:53

       Wow. Um, so you must have had to include certain areas and exclude other ones. Were there certain geographic locations that you focused on?

   20. RKRachel Kleinfeld3:02

       Yeah, so when I first wrote the book, I thought it would be a pretty typical think tank book of, uh, lots of little ideas that, you know, lots of little different kinds of violence and different ways to fight it, and so I picked case studies on every continent on Earth that was settled. So not Antarctica, but everywhere else.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:16

       (laughs)

   22. RKRachel Kleinfeld3:17

       And, um-

   23. CWChris Williamson3:17

       If there's wars going on in Antarctica and gangs, roving gangs of, uh, like-

   24. RKRachel Kleinfeld3:22

       Emperor penguins-

   25. CWChris Williamson3:23

       Yes.

   26. RKRachel Kleinfeld3:23

       ... who are really upset at each other-

   27. CWChris Williamson3:25

       Yeah, I know.

   28. RKRachel Kleinfeld3:25

       It could be. I've never been to Antarctica, but-

   29. CWChris Williamson3:27

       Sequel.

   30. RKRachel Kleinfeld3:27

       ... uh, I focus ... (laughs) My husband would be thrilled.
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. RKRachel Kleinfeld15:00

      system. Um, the Communist Party kept saying this. They kept saying, "Hey, look, the Christian Democratic Party is (laughs) working with the mafia." And the Christian Democrats would say, "Oh, that's just the Communists talking. Do you wanna believe the Communists? Besides, they're tied in with the Soviet Internationale." And that was also true. The Communist Party of Italy was deeply, deeply, um, uh, paid for by the Soviet Union. And so, th- they could, they could dissuade people from looking into the mafia contacts by undermining the credibility of the Communists. So you see that kind of polarization making it impossible to solve the problem, and you see high, high levels of inequality. And the inequality matters because it makes it really hard for the middle class to imagine what's going on in other people's lives. When, um, these democracies become violent, the middle class doesn't tend to face the violence. They tend to look different. You know, Guatemala, for instance, uh, they're lighter skinned. They're taller. They can be a head taller than an indigenous person. They live in different neighborhoods. And so, the violence is happening to poorer people, more marginalized people, people who look different. And when it happens, you read it in the newspaper, maybe. Maybe it doesn't even make the paper because it's so normal for people to be harmed in those parts of town.

   2. CWChris Williamson16:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RKRachel Kleinfeld16:09

      And you say, "Oh, well, they're in the bad part of town. It's just criminals killing criminals. That's what happens in those part..." And so you see a lot of rationalization on the part of the middle class where they say, "It's over there. It's not touching me. I can ignore it. And besides, they're probably involved in the businesses," as it's usually... in Mexico, for instance, even though 20,000 people, um, are dying a year, they say, "Oh, it's probably just people involved in the business. It's not regular people like me and so I can, uh, distance myself."

   4. CWChris Williamson16:37

      Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that... Uh, I'm gonna guess as well that the middle class will be a, a heavy bulk of the voters as well, and probably the ones who would be the ones that will swing also and make big differences in elections.

   5. RKRachel Kleinfeld16:51

      That's exactly right, because the, the poor and the marginalized, they just don't vote as much. Maybe they're being... Maybe they're facing election violence that's keeping them from voting.

   6. CWChris Williamson16:58

      Yeah. Punching in the face. Yeah.

   7. RKRachel Kleinfeld16:59

      Um, maybe they just... Exactly, exactly. Who's gonna play ice hockey following... Apparently, Americans do. I don't follow (laughs) ice hockey. But a lot of people won't play ice hockey if those are the rules, right? You're not gonna vote, uh, with, uh, with that. Um, but it might also be that there's just nothing on offer, right? If it's an oligarchic system, it's a dem- democracy, but basically it's the same elites who run the show. Whether it's right or left, whoever you vote for, nothing's gonna change for you. Why take the time to bother voting? And so you see a lot of people choosing not to vote because they don't see an option, even if the violence isn't specifically targeting them. So you're right. The middle class are the voters, and if they can pretend the violence won't hit them, it can go on for a really long time and get pretty darn bad.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:38

      I get that. So other than the issues of personal, uh, safety and personal privacy and then the, um, uh, I guess the manipulation of particular parties getting into power within these countries, is there a, a wider problem than this? Is there... downstream is there something that happens that you can see if these in- inequalities and these weak, weak democracies continue to roll forward? Is there a, uh, a 2.0 version of this, which is a bigger, nastier beast that we really need to be worried about?

   9. RKRachel Kleinfeld18:12

      Um, in fact, yes. So that- that structure of governing-

   10. CWChris Williamson18:16

       I was really- I was really, really hoping you were gonna say no. (laughs) I really hoped-

   11. RKRachel Kleinfeld18:19

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson18:19

       ... you were gonna say no.

   13. RKRachel Kleinfeld18:20

       I wish I could say no. I wish I could say no. The book, I should say, is positive, you know? The book is about how you get out of this system.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:25

       Uh-huh.

   15. RKRachel Kleinfeld18:25

       So we can talk about how you get into it, but I'd love to talk some about how you get out of it-

   16. CWChris Williamson18:29

       Yeah.

   17. RKRachel Kleinfeld18:29

       ... 'cause that was what interested me. But yes, it does get nastier because what basically happens is, you have a group of politicians who think, "We can't win a legitimate clean election. We're not gonna get in power. We want campaign finance money from organized criminals. We want to enable violence that's electoral violence. We wanna take bribes ourself and if the voting public knows how corrupt we are, they're not gonna vote for us." So for var- various different reasons, they think they're not gonna win a particularly clean election. So, they enable this violence and, um, use these violent groups to help them fill up their campaign coffers. You know, maybe they don't care about the violence. They don't want that to happen. They just want the money, but they're gonna let it happen so they can get the money. Uh, whatever the cause, that violence starts continuing. Well, the middle class buy their way out. So they buy private security, they live in gated communities, they buy houses in nice parts of town, you know, th- like anyone in a- in any normal place, they try to do what they can to provide for their kids and so on. So, you see this proliferation of private security services in a lot of these places and the s- in Spanish-speaking Central America, every single country, they outnumber, uh, police, um, this private security. And you see that everywhere, in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Pakistan. Um, so that's what the middle class does. So the violence falls on the poor and the marginalized, and that's kind of the implicit deal with these countries. You know, you don't kill the voters, you don't kill the middle class. That only happens by accident or if it's sending a particular message to someone who's getting nosy, an investigative journalist or something.

   18. CWChris Williamson20:00

       Mm-hmm.

   19. RKRachel Kleinfeld20:01

       Um, the- the violence falls on the marginalized. What do they do? Well, they can't turn to the state because state has been politicized. So the second thing that happens is the- the leadership, these politicians, politicize their police and security services because they can't have the police and security services arresting the violent groups that they've promised to give impunity to. That would break their promise.

   20. CWChris Williamson20:23

       Mm-hmm.

   21. RKRachel Kleinfeld20:24

       So they have to- they have to make those groups more political. And it turns out when you politicize your security services, good people don't wanna stay in them. Um, perhaps not surprisingly, morale just plummets for people who really wanna do their job.

   22. CWChris Williamson20:37

       Mm-hmm.

   23. RKRachel Kleinfeld20:37

       And what you see is a lot of violence. Uh, if you're- if you're a good policeman in a bad system like that that's letting off bad guys, what do you do? Some people turn to violence and they say, "Look, I'm a white hat. I'm gonna use extrajudicial violence because I know that the- the judges aren't gonna convict these people and the prisons aren't gonna keep them." So you start seeing these death squads that start up, um, from poli-

   24. CWChris Williamson21:02

       That's a terrifying word.

   25. RKRachel Kleinfeld21:02

       ... cia who are trying to do their job.

   26. CWChris Williamson21:03

       (laughs) Death squad.

   27. RKRachel Kleinfeld21:03

       Sorry, I- I (overlapped by Mark laughing) ... worked in the world of terrifying things.

   28. CWChris Williamson21:05

       Oh, no. No. I just-

   29. RKRachel Kleinfeld21:07

       You know? Uh-

   30. CWChris Williamson21:07

       Death- death squad is really what I don't wanna bump into, like, at all. (laughs)
3. 30:00 – 41:04

   Mm-hmm. …

   1. RKRachel Kleinfeld30:00

      you say, you know... Look at Venezuela right now. And you say, "I'm gonna take over and make this place goo-" You know, what kind of person thinks they can do that? Well, it's a particular kind of person. It's a very egotistical kind of a person.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:11

      Mm-hmm.

   3. RKRachel Kleinfeld30:12

      Um, very high energy, and, uh, someone who really believes in themselves a lot, and you need those characteristics. So, they're good characteristics in that they need those things to get through and to do these incredibly tough tasks.... but they have a dark side. And so, you see these reformers start out on re- as reformers and then as they start doing things that are more and more gray and people start challenging them, they get upset and they get more autocratic and they get more authoritarian and they need to be thrown out by the same population that voted them in. So you see this kind of loop of reform that goes (laughs) like up and then down.

   4. CWChris Williamson30:49

      Yeah.

   5. RKRachel Kleinfeld30:50

      Um, and so it's really important for outsiders to help, help the reformer at the beginning, but then recognize when that curve starts to turn and not hold onto them too long. 'Cause if you, if you keep thinking they're a reformer when they become an autocrat, you know, that's the story of an awful lot of the independence fighters in a number of African countries, for instance.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:09

      Yeah. I get that. Were there any, um, really surprising stories or any kind of, um, shocking moments while you were doing your research? You said that you traveled to an awful lot of countries, an awful lot of interviews. Was there anything in particular which stood out? I mean, it sounds like there would've probably been quite a lot of highlights on the highlight reel, but was there anything in particular that stood out?

   7. RKRachel Kleinfeld31:31

      Oh, gosh. Uh, so many stories. We could talk for another half hour, but, um, I guess one of 'em when I was in Columbia, I was trying to track down this investigative journalist. There was an investigative journalist who went by the name of Nacho, uh, like the chips, and, um-

   8. CWChris Williamson31:45

      S- yeah. Sounds like a completely normal...

   9. RKRachel Kleinfeld31:48

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson31:48

       Yeah. Definitely, definitely ?

   11. RKRachel Kleinfeld31:49

       A fa- uh, absolutely, like, the, the guy who had... He knew what had gone on inside the Cali cartel and the Medellín cartel. He knew what was going on inside the paramilitary groups. He had been targeted for assassination 22 times. Every, everyone wanted to kill this guy because he knew so much. The Columbian military tried to kill him, their intelligence services, both the cartels, the paramilitaries, just everyone had it in for him, and I wanted to know some of what he knew because trying to figure out the violence in Columbia is really difficult. It's a really complex situation. So we made, we'd make appointments and then he'd cancel the appointments, and I'd make another appointment and he'd cancel. And I, I was getting ready to leave Bogotá, and I really needed to meet with him, and finally made an appointment at his... a four story walk-up apartment building, and I said, "Okay, I'll be there." And he kept that appointment. So I go up to the apartment building, I walk up the four floors. I'm heavily pregnant, I should add, at this time. I was six months pregnant when I was doing that part of the research.

   12. CWChris Williamson32:42

       Yup.

   13. RKRachel Kleinfeld32:42

       So I'm this bowling ball walking up these four flights of stairs and get to his little tiny apartment. He locks maybe five, six padlocks on the door and then he says, "My bodyguard didn't show up today." Now in Columbia, um, bodyguards are given by the government 'cause the violence is so much-

   14. CWChris Williamson32:59

       Mm-hmm.

   15. RKRachel Kleinfeld32:59

       ... that if you've been targeted a lot, you can request a state-funded bodyguard.

   16. CWChris Williamson33:03

       Oh my god.

   17. RKRachel Kleinfeld33:03

       It's an old, old tactic in Columbia that if the bodyguard doesn't show up, that's when you're gonna be targeted next, um, because the state will withdraw the bodyguard and then someone will target you. So they lost a number of presidential candidates this way. So he says, "My bodyguard didn't show up today," and I'm thinking... I'm sitting on your couch six months pregnant, you know, but-

   18. CWChris Williamson33:21

       Great. (laughs)

   19. RKRachel Kleinfeld33:22

       But, you know, his teenage daughter is in the room right behind me and she's this, like, lovely, beautiful teenage girl and I'm just thinking, "Well, she doesn't seem scared. She's making a snack." Um, I guess-

   20. CWChris Williamson33:32

       (laughs)

   21. RKRachel Kleinfeld33:32

       ... I will, you know, do this interview.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:34

       Right.

   23. RKRachel Kleinfeld33:34

       And so, you know, I just sat watching the padlocks on the door hoping that they held and, um, we did the interview and he gave me incredible information that was really useful (laughs) for the book and, um, you know, so far so good. He's, he's made it through, so.

   24. CWChris Williamson33:47

       Wow. Are you still in contact with him? I'm gonna guess he's a, a difficult man to get a hold of.

   25. RKRachel Kleinfeld33:53

       Off and on. I, uh, you know, I had to ask him for permission to use the language that I used in the book and things like that, so a little bit.

   26. CWChris Williamson33:59

       That's cool. That's really cool.

   27. RKRachel Kleinfeld34:00

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson34:00

       So-

   29. RKRachel Kleinfeld34:00

       Yeah. Well, it's... That, those are the guys that are... and women, who are really doing the brave work. You know, this, the kind of, uh, violence inquiry that, that they do, that's why journalists are the f- canaries in the coal mine for all of this. It's why they keep getting killed all around the world, 'cause they are really the ones who expose what's going on in these countries.

   30. CWChris Williamson34:17

       So they're a degree of lifeblood, I suppose. They carry these messages around.

Episode duration: 41:04