Hardship Is An Opportunity To Improve - Bugzy Malone (4K)

1. 0:00 – 6:48

   Pressure is the Secret to Unlocking Your Potential

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      You've got a line that says, "Being a role model's taking its toll."

   2. BMBugzy Malone0:04

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:05

      How so? How does being a role model take its toll?

   4. BMBugzy Malone0:08

      What song is that from now?

   5. CWChris Williamson0:09

      That's a freestyle. It's from the Charlie Sloth original, 10 years ago. Oh, sorry. No, it's from the second one that you did or the most recent one. It's from number two or number three.

   6. BMBugzy Malone0:19

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson0:20

      "Being a role model's taking its toll."

   8. BMBugzy Malone0:22

      I mean, look, so... (clears throat) As I was just telling you there off camera, I've just not long come back from Miami and I've been... I'm, I'm flirting with the idea of writing something, bit of a book. And, um, I get this message off, off a woman and she's like, um, "You know, my, my eight-year-old autistic son wrote today in school that you're his superhero." I'm flipping sat there in this little quirky hotel room that's got, like, a record player and, like, Bob Marley records and stuff. And I decided to just, um, you know, get her contact and give her a ring. They've actually came to, like, meet and greets before, to meet me. Um, and I just wanted to speak to her about it and just see what it is that these kids and these, you know, people in general, you know, seeing me and, and where they're actually taking strength. So, I guess when you understand that things like that are going on, you start to take your job description more serious.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:25

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BMBugzy Malone1:25

       Because you know people are... Some people are living by the things that you say. You know? And I find it keeps me sharp.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:34

       Is there an additional type of pressure that comes along with that? It's the kind of one that you didn't ask for, right? It's a byproduct of doing what you do. It's a, a beautiful benefit, but it's a huge cost as well.

   12. BMBugzy Malone1:43

       Yeah. I think so. Um, and actually, I think I appreciate the pressure 'cause it's this weird, like, paradox, right? Of, like, you wanna be the best version of you, you know? You wanna grow into this individual that you see yourself being. But without the pressure, it's too easy to just not do it. You know? I'm running off not much sleep today. I've been to the gym, I've been boxing, but the pressure of knowing I've got this and I've got the things I've got coming next means that I'll keep rolling.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:13

       Keeps you sharp.

   14. BMBugzy Malone2:14

       Yeah. If I didn't have them things, I'd have for sure laid in bed today.

   15. CWChris Williamson2:18

       There's a bodybuilder called Chris Bumstead, and he was sat in that seat yesterday.

   16. BMBugzy Malone2:22

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson2:22

       Six time Mr. Olympia. He's kind of the, the Arnold of our era.

   18. BMBugzy Malone2:25

       Okay.

   19. CWChris Williamson2:26

       And a good friend. And he had, for a very long time, I think for almost all his career, uh, his caption was, "Pressure is a privilege."

   20. BMBugzy Malone2:34

       It is, yeah. Yeah. It... I've, like, I've... Honestly, bro, I've done things in my career that I had no idea I was capable of. You know? No idea. I, I had a bike accident four or five years ago. On the hospital bed, um, I get a message from Guy Ritchie, "Would you like to be in another film?" I'm like, "Yeah, but I need to learn to walk again first," you know? But the pressure pushed me to being maybe the fittest I've ever been. So, it's definitely a privilege, for sure.

   21. CWChris Williamson3:11

       Is it hard to stay hungry when you've achieved ten times all of the goals that you ever thought that you would've done?

   22. BMBugzy Malone3:18

       That's, that's interesting to say, really, because... (clears throat) And it's a big conversation that's coming up at the minute, in my, in my life in particular. And how I sort of planned it was I sort of planned the bigger picture, and because I used to box, I'd see opponents dotted about, so I'd try and sprint past them, you know? I'll try and win certain battles. Um, so the bigger picture's not done yet. And actually, the picture evolves the more that I learn more stuff, you know? So I'm not actually quite there. So some of the achievements that I get are a surprise for me some, some, some of the time. You know? So, I think in terms of actually staying hungry, as I was saying to you then off camera, I've been listening to motivational videos and your voice keeps popping up. But that's because when I was about 20, 21, I experienced depression for about two years. I couldn't even get out of my bedroom almost. And, and that's when I started to learn about the law of attraction, listening to motivational videos and, and sort of creating, um, healthy habits to shake off this, like, dark place I was in. You know? So now I'm not in a dark place, but I could easily get comfortable. So you gotta act with the, the same urgency, I find.

   23. CWChris Williamson4:45

       I've heard you say that depression occurs when you're lying dormant.

   24. BMBugzy Malone4:49

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson4:49

       Like, when you've not got anything better to do. I think a, an interesting challenge there is the difference between keeping yourself so busy that you don't wallow, that you don't slow up so much that dark things creep in-

   26. BMBugzy Malone5:05

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson5:05

       ... but also not just over-scheduling yourself out of being able to hear the important insights that your brain whispers to you.

   28. BMBugzy Malone5:12

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson5:12

       'Cause when you're very, very busy and you're in chaos mode, you're not paying as much attention to, "Is this really what I should be doing?" And how many artists and business owners and, uh, career people have spent so long just in the chaos. Decades later, they turn around and realize-

   30. BMBugzy Malone5:30

       Yeah.
2. 6:48 – 14:38

   Bugzy’s Key to Staying Grounded

   1. CWChris Williamson6:49

      It's such a common talking point, I think. I, I like the fact that you call out the first 10 years of your career was chaos.

   2. BMBugzy Malone6:58

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:59

      And now the answer to you is balance, but if you had told you during those first 10 years to have balance, it wouldn't have worked.

   4. BMBugzy Malone7:07

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson7:07

      And I've come up with this, this insight with Chris, again, the guy that was sat there yesterday. Uh, model the rise not the result because if you try ... if somebody at the beginning of their journey tries to do what you now, as a veteran, is doing-

   6. BMBugzy Malone7:19

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson7:20

      ... that wasn't how you got to where you are. That is how you are coping with your current position and how you're, uh ... it's a more advanced technique.

   8. BMBugzy Malone7:27

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson7:27

      It's ... someone walks into a boxing gym, "Okay, let's learn to throw a jab. Let's not try this really complex footwork pattern here." You'll do that down the line.

   10. BMBugzy Malone7:36

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:36

       So, if someone that's a world champion says, "Well, a lot of what I'm doing at the moment, my competitive advantage is my amazing complex footwork," okay, but that's not what got you there. What got you there were the basics done really well, and the basics for most people at the start is chaos and not sleeping much and working really, really hard and no work-life balance.

   12. BMBugzy Malone7:55

       There you go, and look, let's, let's face it, like, my come up was in the rap game. It's the youngest genre of music, you know. Only the Americans have pushed it over to a place where you've got Jay-Z and 50 Cent and ... you know. You start getting over here, it's an embryo (laughs) .

   13. CWChris Williamson8:16

       (laughs)

   14. BMBugzy Malone8:16

       Right? So, you, you're looking at a situation that really lacks structure and demonstrations, so a lot of it you, you're having to sort of figure out as you go along. Um, and then when you talk about rap music, it is ... well, essentially we're looking at a guy on his come up, right? We look at a rapper we're interested in. You know, you're looking at a guy that's come from a difficult beginning. I can be quite articulate about that bit and he, he, he talks about it, and then we relate. We think, "I like this guy. I relate to what he's saying." And then some label signs him or his career starts taking off, and then he goes on the come up and he starts talking about what he's spending his money on. This country's not really got past that stage yet. We're still evolving from that sort of stage. So, the first ... for, for me, the first 10 years was, um, establishing, you know, coming from outside of where the industry was sort of based, it was establishing like a foothold in the game as an independent, you know, and, um, it was chaos because there was no m- road map. You know, you're walking in undriven snow. Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson9:30

       How therapeutic was that process? Before we started, you were talking about the fact that you worked through a lot with your music.

   16. BMBugzy Malone9:37

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson9:39

       Do you ever think about the, like, therapeutic usefulness ... People m- ... this might not be where most people go with the rap game, right?

   18. BMBugzy Malone9:47

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson9:47

       "Oh, yeah, I went there to, um, alchemize the first two decades of my life into something that made sense to me and construct a timeline."

   20. BMBugzy Malone9:55

       Yeah, yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson9:55

       But it kind of seems like that happened.

   22. BMBugzy Malone10:00

       So, the first ... this is interesting, by the way, because I was on Instagram the other day, and there's a Manchester guy and he's, he's, um, he's incarcerated as we speak, and he's doing lyrics to camera. He's looking for his come up. He's looking to get into the rap game and get a start in his life going to the next sort of level. And what he's done is he's took sort of the structure of my lyrics from a song called Beauty in the Beast where I say, "Tell her that I'm coming home," and he takes that and he takes the sort of structure and, and, and does his own thing and tells his own story.

   23. CWChris Williamson10:39

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BMBugzy Malone10:40

       Now, when I first started music, five, five ... there was five years that nobody cared, right? And in that five years, I can say this now and sort of, to look back in retrospect, I was using it to transcend depression and me sort of vocalizing the way I was feeling was the quickest way for me to get an understanding of, actually, that's not my fault and I shouldn't be embarrassed about that then. But in the mix, I sort of turned them into songs, right? And it's funny now 'cause them songs have just, um, become a part of the business. We've published them on iTunes and whatever. Before, there was just this, like, underground archive of music that was just doing numbers and I'm like, "How does anyone even know them songs?" Then my career takes off. This is where a lot of people get me twisted 'cause then I have a big rap battle with a big famous rapper, and a lot of people think, "Ah, this is the point that, like, you know, this is, this is it," but there was a full sort of lead up to that point that meant when the spotlight was on me, I was five or six years in with five or six projects under my belt, and I'd been working diligently in the shadows. So, when I got my opportunity, I was more than ready. I was starving, you know? So-What I'm getting at with the rapper there that's u- using the structure of my lyrics is when I first sort of got exposure, and my first fire in the booth or whatever, and I'm telling my story, it's foreign to everyone.

   25. CWChris Williamson12:16

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BMBugzy Malone12:16

       No one's really doing it. And actually, I'm talking about men's mental health, which now is a really popular category, but it wasn't then. And not as a rapper. "Thought you was a tough kid? What do you mean you was depressed?" You know? But for me, I, I... Uh, the nature of me being interested in rapping is that, like, originally I was introduced to artwork, painting, art history, and all that. So... And I'm a bit bone idle, so I find it, like, taxing to draw and paint, but I'm decent. However, I figured I can paint pictures with words in people's minds, and I find that more fluid. It just w- it just comes to me fast, right? And, um, yeah. I just f- I f- I feel like art is vulnerability. It's truth. Truth resonates.

   27. CWChris Williamson13:12

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BMBugzy Malone13:13

       That's essentially what you're trying to do as an artist, is speak your truth regardless to where society's at and what people think is cool or right or... And I'd done it, and for years, I was, I was shunned for it.

   29. CWChris Williamson13:25

       Why?

   30. BMBugzy Malone13:26

       Um, just 'cause... Like I say, men's mental health is a big topic now. I was talking about it years before it was interesting to anybody.
3. 14:38 – 19:28

   Why You’re Never Truly Alone

   1. CWChris Williamson14:38

      Hearing somebody say something, and it resonating in the back of your mind and telling you the lesson, "Fuck, it's not just me," is one of the best... It's... I d- I don't know whether we have an emotion for that. It's a recognition, sort of resonance, a sense of being seen, um...

   2. BMBugzy Malone15:02

      Or is it, or is it a sense of feeling human?

   3. CWChris Williamson15:06

      Maybe being... A- at least for me, it's less broken, I think.

   4. BMBugzy Malone15:09

      Okay.

   5. CWChris Williamson15:09

      We spent s- uh... For me, I spend so much time, have spent so much time in my head. I'm an only child.

   6. BMBugzy Malone15:13

      Okay.

   7. CWChris Williamson15:14

      Uh, grew up in the northeast of the UK. I don't sound like I come from there. I went to state bo- uh, state primary, state secondary, state sixth form college. Like, didn't do the things that the people in my school were doing, and that meant I was always on the outside. Plus, being an only child, you spend a lot of time in your head.

   8. BMBugzy Malone15:29

      Oh, really?

   9. CWChris Williamson15:30

      And that means you can get yourself into a situation where you feel like any challenges that you're facing are a personal curse that's just you.

   10. BMBugzy Malone15:43

       Yeah, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:43

       Like, "Only I feel this thing."

   12. BMBugzy Malone15:46

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson15:46

       "Only I have this thought. Only I criticize myself in this way, have this shortcoming." And when you hear someone that has the same fear or uncertainty that you do, you go, (sighs) "It's not just me."

   14. BMBugzy Malone16:04

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson16:05

       "Thank fuck it's not just me. I'm not cursed by the gods." This isn't some unique, de-

   16. BMBugzy Malone16:10

       Attacked.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:10

       ... designer, um, disease that I have, this weird pathology of one. It's not that. It's, "Maybe I'm not quite as strange and broken as I thought I was."

   18. BMBugzy Malone16:25

       However, I'll throw a component on the table here. The more that I've g- sort of grown into my success, the more I understand that, like, as a spirit, I have a purpose. There's, there's- something that I've, I'm here to do. And we all feel it in us that there's a purpose, there's a bigger meaning, there's a... You know? And I've been, I've been really trying to get to grips with that. And I, and I think when you have real potential to do something special in terms of like contributing back to the planet, I think you get individual challenges. And I think that, you know, m- my life was quite hard pretty early on, and I could see lots of people that didn't have that particular challenge at that particular time, but that was my individual journey. So, you know, although you're saying, yeah, it's not like this personal attack from the gods, they are your set of challenges-

   19. CWChris Williamson17:29

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BMBugzy Malone17:29

       ... for you as an individual that give you the opportunity to become your higher self. And the reason I say that is because i- i- if I didn't have the bike accident that I had, for an example, that, for me, was a huge challenge.

   21. CWChris Williamson17:44

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BMBugzy Malone17:45

       You know? And then I, I was coming back from that. I'm thinking, "I'm bouncing back. The rap game's young. This will be like a, a comeback, the biggest UK comeback in history."

   23. CWChris Williamson17:54

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BMBugzy Malone17:55

       And then I, then I was hit with a blood clot. And then there's, then there's a bigger challenge than the bike crash. And then you realize, like, "No, no, no, this is for you to sit down and reflect and-"

   25. CWChris Williamson18:07

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BMBugzy Malone18:08

       "... you know, really..."... be broken and rebuild. And although I come flying out the gates looking confident and looking strong, like, it was a dark place.

   27. CWChris Williamson18:19

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4. 19:28 – 31:07

   The Accident That Changed Everything

   1. CWChris Williamson19:28

      Can you tell me the story of the bike crash and what happened after that?

   2. BMBugzy Malone19:32

      For sure, for sure. I, um, I was in a relationship at the time. And the relationship th- it was- it wasn't right for a long time, but the girl was a really nice girl and, and it was love for sure. However, we- t- we sort of just slowly but surely growing apart bit by bit, and ... So, I didn't know it until, like, I ... The night I'm sat in the hospital and I know that I've got this blood clot and it's in my leg, and blood clots, you know, famously travel. I knew I was potentially in trouble that night, and I had this moment where I'm like, "I have to ... There's some difficult decisions I need to make in life." There's some friends that, you know, this isn't ... It's not a true friendship. The relationship, although it sort of ran well and, and it was a great girl, it wasn't necessarily right, you know? So, there was just big decisions, um, that needed to be made. In terms of the actual crash, I was just flying up the w- the road and flipping-

   3. CWChris Williamson20:42

      What was it? What's the vehicle?

   4. BMBugzy Malone20:44

      It was a three-wheeler, probably inspired by Batman (laughs) and, um, a cannon, so it's fast. Off the, off the line, it's fast. And I was ... Yeah, I'm going through like a- a sort of a junction and a car just sort of pulls out on me but, like, slow. So, you know you're crashing for about 10 seconds, 15 seconds and you're like, "Ah." Smash. Unconscious. Woke up on the floor. People's feet are on my head. "You all right, mate?" You all right mate?" And, like, noise comes back slowly. I'm muffled and then ... And it's a really strange situation to be lay on your back in public, right? Like, if you've not chose to lie on the floor, right? If you've not chose to lie on the floor in public and you wake up on the floor in public, it's weird. And I was like, I was like lay there and I've tried to get up and dropped and I'm like, "Oh, I'm in some kind of trouble." So, it turns out I snapped my patella, kneecap, and I'd fractured my skull in three p- three places. So, I had bleeding on the brain, but my head's open, so there's a puddle of blood next to me that's just growing. And that was a weird process because ... And head blood is different to other blood, I think, 'cause it was thick. It was a deep red and, and it's coming- uh, you can see it's coming from my head. And I'm sort of lay there and then people are talking to me and, and then ... And people are filming me. And in this weird moment of a guy being like that with his phone, I, I realized like, oh, like, this is one of the first times in my life as an adult I felt helpless 'cause I can't even ask that guy to stop filming. So, you're just being filmed, you know? And, um, people are like, "Who should we contact?" I'm like, "S- let my girlfriend know I've, I've wrapped up." She comes. She sees my face. She panics, like horror. Starts to cry. And I was like, "Don't cry." Because of the nature of my background, I always said to her, "If anything really bad happens to me and it's a bit bloody and a bit gory, you know, don't panic and just get yourself somewhere safe." And, um, so there we were in the situation. So, I said, "Don't cry." And you seen her snap out of it and realize like, let me, you know, usher people out of the way. And, and that was that, and then her dad turned up. He-

   5. CWChris Williamson23:16

      'Cause she got there before the ambulance.

   6. BMBugzy Malone23:18

      She got there before the ambulance, yeah. And, um, and then her dad turned up. He seen me burst out crying. That's another weird one 'cause people are seeing you and then you see their reaction, right? And when someone looks at you and they burst out crying, you know you're in some trouble, you know? So this, this blood keeps growing, the patch next to me, the puddle next to me, and then when the ambulance guy got there, he was like, "All right, mate, we're gonna get you onto the stretcher." And then as my ex-girlfriend and, and people, like, step back, I've gone, "Am I dying?" Like, "Do I die here?" You know? And he was like, "Don't worry, mate. We're gonna get you on ..." I think legally they're not allowed to tell you.

   7. CWChris Williamson24:02

      Hmm.

   8. BMBugzy Malone24:03

      Yeah. So, and then-

   9. CWChris Williamson24:05

      Well, I don't know whether you can be sued by somebody who you say isn't dying that then dies.

   10. BMBugzy Malone24:09

       Yeah. I think they're not allowed to-

   11. CWChris Williamson24:10

       (laughs)

   12. BMBugzy Malone24:11

       ... 'cause that's them.

   13. CWChris Williamson24:13

       (laughs)

   14. BMBugzy Malone24:13

       So, and that was that, and then you were in the back of an ambulance. That's a new experience. Blue lights, lots of bumping around.

   15. CWChris Williamson24:20

       Mm-hmm.

   16. BMBugzy Malone24:20

       And then you get your head sort of flipping boarded to the stretcher. And then you're sort of rushed into hospital. I was in Salford Royal, so that's like, uh, an old sort of stomping ground, so the nurses was really kind and, like, endearing. They was spiritual, so they, they was doing Reiki over me while I was, while I was, um, relaxing, you know? So I was just in there having, having good fun, but also, like, morphined up, you know, and doing a lot of sleeping. So, yeah. I mean, it was a, it was a profound experience in that it needed to happen. For me to dig into why it needed to happen, it's a funny one because when I was coming onto this podcast, the reason I said to you over there I'm a bit nervous is because I respect your work, right? And I respect it because it's sophisticated. You can go on too many levels with many different types of people, which I'm capable of doing also. But I heard a thing the other day, um, because I'm trying to study some literature. I think the fans want me to write a book, all right? And, um, I was looking into JK Rowling, and the interviewer said, um, "Do you think you're one of the people in the world that's got the, like, one of the largest understandings of the class system? Because you, you was in a situation where you was just before being homeless."

   17. CWChris Williamson25:45

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BMBugzy Malone25:45

       "You were so poor you was just before being homeless."

   19. CWChris Williamson25:47

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BMBugzy Malone25:48

       "And now you've climbed up to being a billionaire."

   21. CWChris Williamson25:49

       Mm-hmm.

   22. BMBugzy Malone25:50

       And she was like, "I mean, yeah, you, you could say that." And to, to some extent, you know, she's within her rights to say that. However, that made me think what must I understand, because I'm from the place beneath what people deem as to be the bottom. There's also the minus, you know? So the bike accident had to happen because, uh, things were potentially getting dark, you know? And sometimes there is sort of divine intervention. It was better that I, I hurt myself than, you know, I end up in a crazy situation.

   23. CWChris Williamson26:29

       What would have happened if you hadn't gone through that bike accident?

   24. BMBugzy Malone26:31

       Um-

   25. CWChris Williamson26:31

       What could you envision?

   26. BMBugzy Malone26:34

       I mean, g- good question, right? But what I just, what I know is, you know, people in, in music will s- refer to me as the King of the North, the, the first one from the north of England to get into the music industry and, and make sort of leeway in the rap space. That comes with ramifications, you know? If you're gonna be turning up in a new car every couple of weeks and a new watch and flipping, you know, and your family infrastructure fell, fell to bits and you ended up in, in sort of gang culture and a gang becomes your family and you're, you're, you're as good as them and you're the one that's winning. You know, it just, it, it gets small. It gets, it gets intense.

   27. CWChris Williamson27:18

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BMBugzy Malone27:19

       And I'm easily provoked.

   29. CWChris Williamson27:20

       Hm.

   30. BMBugzy Malone27:21

       So it was just a recipe for disaster.
5. 31:07 – 37:03

   Rebuilding Yourself from the Ground Up

   1. BMBugzy Malone31:07

   2. CWChris Williamson31:07

      What did recovery look like to get yourself back to fully functional?

   3. BMBugzy Malone31:13

      It looked like a message off Guy Ritchie, "Do you fancy being in a film again?" And me saying, "Yeah, uh, damn right. I'll get it done."

   4. CWChris Williamson31:19

      Was that more important than some of the rehab in some ways?

   5. BMBugzy Malone31:21

      Um, probably 'cause I remember pulling up outside rehab one day, and I, I had, a, a Scottish friend who was a boxer. And, um, he'd committed suicide, you know, so I was outside dealing with my own ... I'm, I'm writing an album by the way, so I'm writing, like, the resurrection through these stages of recovery. And I have up days 'cause of the sort of life that I come from. I learned to laugh through traumatic situations, so I'll have up days where I'm just laughing my head off. And then I have days where it catches up with me and I feel quite low. And then it's topped off with, you know, such and such has hung himself. I just remember being, like, sat outside of physiotherapy and, and, um, a little tear rolled down my cheek, (sniffs) and I literally just had to suck it up and get in there and get it done. 'Cause you're going through pain, like, every session. It's crazy pain, you know. But in my head, I could see Jason Statham.

   6. CWChris Williamson32:20

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BMBugzy Malone32:20

      'Cause I knew he was, he was gonna be in the film.

   8. CWChris Williamson32:22

      So this is the second one?

   9. BMBugzy Malone32:23

      This is the second film, yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson32:25

       Yeah.

   11. BMBugzy Malone32:25

       I'd done the, The Gentlemen and had been offered this, like, action sort of-

   12. CWChris Williamson32:30

       Bigger role.

   13. BMBugzy Malone32:30

       ... bigger role. Jason Statham, notoriously known for i- his ability in sort of combat sports and his, his physique, his, you know-

   14. CWChris Williamson32:40

       So I've got to try and keep up with him.

   15. BMBugzy Malone32:41

       He's a man's man. And, uh, yeah, I just felt like I'm not turning, I'm not turning up there to be, like, the, the tag along. Like, I'm gonna try and on screen fit the bill.

   16. CWChris Williamson32:51

       Mm-hmm.

   17. BMBugzy Malone32:52

       So-

   18. CWChris Williamson32:52

       I think, uh, the comparison between the first, your first role, which was, uh, not simple, but at least you were playing an analogous character to yourself in The Gentlemen.

   19. BMBugzy Malone33:03

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson33:03

       Right? Not too dissimilar to ... You're not ... For all that you've got talents, you're not a weapons expert.

   21. BMBugzy Malone33:10

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson33:11

       Right?

   23. BMBugzy Malone33:11

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson33:11

       Like, with sniper rifles and bullshit like that. So you're, "Okay, I'm being really, really ripped out of the world that I know." And, um, I think at least what I take away from, from that is that somebody who's got a lot of self-motivation and discipline and is powered by what they want to achieve still needs a goal to be moving toward in order to drag them through a very difficult time.

   25. BMBugzy Malone33:40

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson33:40

       Because had you have not had this new challenge, this new outcome, this new, uh, peak that you're aiming toward, how much harder is it going to be for you to go through? W- where is the motivation? It's purely self-generated, right, as opposed to every single training session, every single rehab session Jason Statham's there just-

   27. BMBugzy Malone34:02

       Yeah, like, having a goal for sure changes it. If there was no goal, uh, it would've just been a more thorough process of healing-

   28. CWChris Williamson34:08

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BMBugzy Malone34:09

       ... uh, because I'd have got it done-

   30. CWChris Williamson34:11

       Wow.
6. 37:03 – 49:01

   What Actually Keeps You Going

   1. CWChris Williamson37:03

      I'm interested in if you've got a lot of pain that you're working through at the start of your career, writing, inspiration, uh, motivation to go and achieve things-

   2. BMBugzy Malone37:15

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson37:16

      ... is it a different skill to keep working hard without the pain to push you forward?

   4. BMBugzy Malone37:25

      Yeah. Yeah. It's transferring... I mean, there's always some pain in life, right? There's little bits of pain and there's big bits of pain. So we see sort of... Yeah, sort of making, um... Tr- it's a transferrable skill, I think. It just feels uncomfortable at first, you know, because if you're... if at first you're motivated by pain and stress and- And in- in my early career, I was motivated by sort of competition with, um, you know, not- not very legitimate characters. And it was just the world I was- I- I understood and- and the- the sort of fear of there being a potential problem would make me think, "I'm not living like this forever. I'm not getting trapped in this. I- I need to- I need to refine my approach to going to where I'm going, 'cause right now it's a million miles away." You know? And, um, it's interesting actually because I- I remember, I remember before being in the Gentlemen film, being sort of parked outside the boxing gym and, um, uh, ending up in a physical o- altercation with a guy that had just got out of jail for he killed his cousin, killed his own cousin. This is- this is me bringing you into Manchester.

   5. CWChris Williamson38:55

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BMBugzy Malone38:55

      All right? There's no rappers. There's- there's rappers but they're not earning a living from music, you know, substantially. And there's some talented guys but they're not m- making inroads into the game, right? And I'm sat there, I'm a couple of years into being a bit famous and making some music and th- this whole sort of inspirational thing building up and this guy that's just flipping... He's- he killed his cousin nine years ago, he does nine years in jail, so he bugs him alone, sat in a car, he's banging on the door. Long story short, me and him end up in a fight. I'm at the b- I'm outside the boxing gym, I'm going to the boxing gym to do some sparring because I'm... That's the way I stay on the straight and narrow, you know, 'cause I'm not signed to a major label or, like, I go into being in a really sort of famous situation to just having free will. And that's where a lot of rappers or famous people fall to bits, 'cause they don't fill that middle bit with anything productive. They go to the clubs, they see different women, you know. There's no structure to it so they fall to bits. So boxing has played sort of a role in just sort of keeping me focused onto sort of the next assignment. Anyway, I get into this flipping big kerfuffle with this guy and, um, I come out of the situation - and because of the way that the situation went, he w- he wanted retribution or whatever you'd call it and it was, i- i- it was... I took motivation from that, the fact that this guy says, "When- when I see you, I'm gonna do whatever." I would take motivation from situations like that. You start climbing your career and them situations subside and-

   7. CWChris Williamson40:35

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BMBugzy Malone40:36

      Right? And you- you're just dealing with your own ambition, your own sort of goals, and you're- you're no longer fueled by fear or, you know, anxiety or whatever it is.

   9. CWChris Williamson40:50

      Mm-hmm. Chip on your shoulder.

   10. BMBugzy Malone40:51

       Yeah. And- and- and I did, I found that difficult. I... And that's where the whole sort of be inspired motto sort of came from.

   11. CWChris Williamson40:59

       Mm-hmm.

   12. BMBugzy Malone41:00

       Um, because if I see people have done well for themselves, I wanna- I wanna study the history. How did he do well for himself? Why did he do well for himself? Where did it go wrong? Did it go wrong?

   13. CWChris Williamson41:14

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BMBugzy Malone41:14

       You know? And in- in studying different people, the Roman Empire, emperors, kings, you know, I sort of seen the people that failed and the patterns as to why they failed and the people that sustained and remained impressive throughout their life.

   15. CWChris Williamson41:32

       What are some of those patterns that you've noticed?

   16. BMBugzy Malone41:36

       Vices. Vices. And that's why I say bec- and be- And what I've sort of seen is that some of them people didn't come from the streets or the minus, they had good parents and nice life, but life still presents bits of pain, right? And I think that undertone... Gabor Mate is quite good around this topic. I think the sort of undertone, um, to any vice is like a- a sort of low level pain. It's like having a headache all the time and you wanna suppress the headaches, you want paracetamol, right? Um, but then people do it by way of vices, gambling, drinking, drugs, smoking, all of the vices. Um, and I- I feel like them vices grab people.... the seven deadly sins. Lust gets people, greed gets people. (inhales deeply) And I think, and I think you're, you're attacked by them things. I think the higher you sort of climb in towards doing something positive for the world-

   17. CWChris Williamson42:36

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BMBugzy Malone42:37

       ... and sort of instilling love back into a world that's always, like, battling and battling each other, I think the more you're attacked by these, um, you know, lust, greed.

   19. CWChris Williamson42:48

       Oh, that's interesting. That's interesting, that it is a counterweight. As you put things into the world that you think are good, you are tempted by evermore seductive and evermore advanced-

   20. BMBugzy Malone43:01

       Well, let's give it biblical framework, right?

   21. CWChris Williamson43:03

       We're in the right place.

   22. BMBugzy Malone43:03

       Which is fear, since we've got these f- these, um, stained-glass windows. You know, if you, if you look at it from a position of if you're, if you believe you're a soldier of God, you're doing God's work on the planet, and that's just being a good person, you know, helping, contributing... You might be a teacher. You might do charity work. You might do a podcast and inspire people, music, whatever it is, and your intention is to be as helpful to the planet as you possibly can, and we're using this biblical framework and seeing it like it's a film. Then, you know, it's as if, it's as if demons are now triggered by you and the light that you carry, and they're like, "How can we stop him seeing his highest potential? Because if he sees it, he's going to create more light, and the shadow c- a, a shadow can't exist in the light."

   23. CWChris Williamson43:57

       Mm-hmm.

   24. BMBugzy Malone43:57

       You know? So you're a threat, so you get attacked from all different angles. You know, and if we're talking quite spiritually there, in the sort of physical world that comes by way of lots more girls approaching now, but it's not girls with good intentions. Lots more friends want to be around you now, but they ain't got good intentions either. You know, like I say, the cheesecake looks a bit nicer. The nightclub seems a bit more interesting. You know, and without saying any names, we've, we've all see p- seen people that have fell. That's throughout history. Um, and if you look at it, it's the same thing that, over and over again, that, that grabs them and, and pulls them. So on the flip side of that coin, we're, we're talking about the people resilient enough to, um, transcend the urge to give into vices. And in the process of that, you got to lean into the, the pain, whether it's old situations you went through, old family situations. Whatever pain it is you feel, you got to face it, and that's what anybody that's been interested in my music has, has sort of witnessed, has been the process of me looking my traumas in the face and becoming comfortable with them.

   25. CWChris Williamson45:12

       Mm-hmm.

   26. BMBugzy Malone45:12

       Yeah, and understanding that I'm strong enough now to withstand the pressure that that makes me feel or the sadness it makes me feel and understanding that it's okay to feel sad about a trauma, traumatic event that happened. That's how you should feel-

   27. CWChris Williamson45:30

       Mm-hmm.

   28. BMBugzy Malone45:30

       ... because you're human. Um, so they're the peop- they're the people I'm impressed by. So when you're talking about a Matthew McConaughey, a Denzel Washington, these people that have just sort of figured out a job description and, and become really good at it, and then, and then just kept climbing and building and refining themselves. And, 'cause I think I seen McConaughey's talking about how he used to drink a lot or... You know, he's human, and he's been through his, his stages.

   29. CWChris Williamson45:56

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BMBugzy Malone45:57

       So then for him to get to where he, he's landed is double impressive to do.
7. 49:01 – 58:23

   Why Resilience is Power

   1. BMBugzy Malone49:01

   2. CWChris Williamson49:01

      I think my favorite idea that I've learned from you since doing my research is it's easy to be inspirational when everything's going well.

   3. BMBugzy Malone49:08

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson49:10

      You can talk about how important discipline is and that it, motivation is fleeting, it comes and goes. Discipline is always there, doing the hard thing in spite of not wanting to do the hard... It's... Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's like being generous when you're rich.

   5. BMBugzy Malone49:25

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson49:27

      When things are going badly and you're suffering, how tough is it to put your motivation where your mouth was?

   7. BMBugzy Malone49:34

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson49:34

      To put your discipline where your mouth was.

   9. BMBugzy Malone49:36

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson49:37

       "Oh, you said that this was important. You said that overcoming hard things was important. Okay."

   11. BMBugzy Malone49:43

       Game time.

   12. CWChris Williamson49:43

       Let's see how well you can do.

   13. BMBugzy Malone49:44

       Yeah. Yeah. And that's, that's been my experience of, um, the success journey because one, at some point it's, you know, the boat's floating and it's fine, and then the next thing there's a storm.

   14. CWChris Williamson49:57

       Bailing water.

   15. BMBugzy Malone49:58

       Right. You know, and like, in, in that sort of happening, um, it's game time at that point. Are you who you say you are or did you lose it? You know, have you gone soft? Have you got the silk pajamas on now? You know, and, and you find out about yourself. So, the bike accident taught me about myself. I used to judge myself on these sort of small situations that I'd overcome-

   16. CWChris Williamson50:25

       Uh-huh.

   17. BMBugzy Malone50:25

       ... in the streets. And then you have a blood clot pass through your heart and you survive that because your arteries are clean because you've ate well and you've continued training for many years and, and you've got the resilience to survive the two or three-hour process that it takes to sort of go through your heart. You, you, you understand you've got a, a different kind of strength, you know, and you sort of respect yourself more because it's not a, it's not a bravado. It's not, it's not, it's nothing to do with anything like that. It's just a resilience and a, a, a, a passion to live. And I didn't know that about myself. And actually, I think, to go on a deeper level with you, I think the bike accident happened to me. It was if, it was if I was being asked, "Do you wanna live or not?" Uh, I think the, the sort of past that I've come from makes you so self-destructive that in moments of madness, you're like, "I don't care what happens."

   18. CWChris Williamson51:25

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   19. BMBugzy Malone51:26

       And actually, when I fell off my bike and I was laying on the floor and this little puddle of blood keep- keeps growing, there's a, there was a part of me that was like, "This might be easier, you know. If that's just gonna keep leaking until I'm fading out and then I'm gone-"

   20. CWChris Williamson51:40

       Hmm.

   21. BMBugzy Malone51:41

       "... it could be easier than the complications of family situations I've had to go through and pains I've had to live through." And you know, that, that was my attitude and that's why I'm sort of just laying on the floor accepting it because I'm like, "We'll see what happens."

   22. CWChris Williamson51:57

       Hmm.

   23. BMBugzy Malone51:57

       And then when you get to the blood clot going through your heart and it's lodged, it's like there's a question being asked. Do you wanna live or not? Before I bless you with all of these great things that you've imagined happening in your mind, you're gonna do all these great things and contribute back to the world, at first you have to commit to loving yourself. And that's what I think I'd lost the ability to do through all the abuse that I went through growing up or whatever. Abuse is, is like, um, the, the between the lines says that you're not lovable. (laughs) Do you get me?

   24. CWChris Williamson52:34

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BMBugzy Malone52:34

       And I'd sort of embraced that thinking. So it was all bravado. My self-esteem was, was bravado but, like, deep down, you know, I was like, "I sort of don't care what happens to me."

   26. CWChris Williamson52:47

       Hmm.

   27. BMBugzy Malone52:47

       And, and the crash brought that to a head. It's like now we're gonna have to have this conversation.

   28. CWChris Williamson52:51

       Because you have nothing to be, to, to base your bravado on. How are you gonna flex if you can't move your head without feeling as-

   29. BMBugzy Malone52:59

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's game, set, and match, and what, what do you want? 'Cause you're talking big like you wanna be this, this motivation to the world. You wanna, um, you, you wanna earn yourself some money. You wanna bring... You wanna have a functional family, a functional wife, functional kids, and a beautiful house that's a creative space and all these mad ideas and plans, but you've not yet figured out how to love yourself. But if you can't love yourself, who can you love? And, and that's sort of what I learned about, like, trauma. Trauma sort of chips away at the ability to, to love yourself, and in losing the ability to love yourself, you lose the ability to love anybody else-

   30. CWChris Williamson53:36

       Uh-huh.
8. 58:23 – 1:01:24

   Life Lessons from Guy Ritchie

   1. CWChris Williamson58:23

      What have you learned from your time with Guy Ritchie?

   2. BMBugzy Malone58:26

      Um, I mean, look, I'd done a- I'd done a film, I spent some time with him offset and I guess what you saw witnessing his- just his excellence is- he's just somebody that I could relate to and somebody that I, um ... Somebody that makes you sort of understand that success, in what we deem as success, we look at his brand, right, and we see success. It's- it's the result of years of sort of work and refinement and when you understand that, it breaks it down because it's such a big brand that i- if you're not careful you just see a giant. And then when you speak to the human being behind it, you're like, "Oh. Oh, like, you've really worked your ass off-

   3. CWChris Williamson59:14

      Mm-hmm.

   4. BMBugzy Malone59:15

      ... for years." You know? So I- I learned that. And there's lots of other little sort of details that I sort of learned but, like, that was the- the- the sort of main thing that I understood.

   5. CWChris Williamson59:30

      Especially given that Guy makes very British films.

   6. BMBugzy Malone59:34

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson59:34

      That feels like a very British philosophy, very British sort of takeaway.

   8. BMBugzy Malone59:38

      Yeah, I guess so.

   9. CWChris Williamson59:39

      The not getting too big for your boots-

   10. BMBugzy Malone59:42

       Yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson59:42

       ... and sort of, uh, keeping your feet on the ground.

   12. BMBugzy Malone59:44

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson59:45

       And that's difficult. You know, there's ... It's a double-edged sword with British culture that we like to take the piss. There is a little bit of tall poppy syndrome and that's good for keeping people humble and for making some people driven.

   14. BMBugzy Malone1:00:01

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:00:01

       But it's also disincentivizing for people that want to take risk because-

   16. BMBugzy Malone1:00:07

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:00:08

       ... they're worried, "Well, what are people gonna say?" And in America it's got a lot of problems but they're very supportive of people being, uh, exploratory, adventurous, trying new things-

   18. BMBugzy Malone1:00:18

       Yeah, yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:00:18

       ... aiming for the stars. We don't quite have that same-

   20. BMBugzy Malone1:00:21

       Bit different.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:00:22

       ... positive some influence in the UK, maybe 'cause it's a smaller country, we're waterlogged, the weather's not as good, that's just the culture. I- I'm not sure. But to think that you've got England's Christopher Nolan, uh, and he is still focusing on the basics-

   22. BMBugzy Malone1:00:41

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:00:41

       ... and- and still turning up every day and doing the hard thing-

   24. BMBugzy Malone1:00:45

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson1:00:46

       ... that's inspiring.

   26. BMBugzy Malone1:00:47

       ... yeah, it just changes your thinking. 'Cause you think you've gone to a different level and at this point you sh- you can, like, kick back, chill a little bit and, you know. But when you sort of see someone that's probably outworking the, the common man that, that turns up and, you know, goes to work or whatever-

   27. CWChris Williamson1:01:04

       Yeah.

   28. BMBugzy Malone1:01:04

       ... somebody that's putting in, like, hours into their craft-

   29. CWChris Williamson1:01:07

       Mm-hmm.

   30. BMBugzy Malone1:01:08

       ... you understand that it's time to just sort of, um, double down and go again.
9. 1:01:24 – 1:13:54

   Does Money Equal Success?

   1. CWChris Williamson1:01:24

      Given that you're in an alternate universe (laughs) , like, literally a different universe from the one that you started in-

   2. BMBugzy Malone1:01:31

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:01:32

      ... were there things that you thought the right amount of wealth and the right amount of attention would have just, "Oh, you know, that's not gonna be, that's gonna be, not gonna be an issue for me anymore."

   4. BMBugzy Malone1:01:44

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01:44

      "I'm gonna be... That is a byproduct of my situation, not of myself."

   6. BMBugzy Malone1:01:51

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:01:51

      Does that make sense?

   8. BMBugzy Malone1:01:52

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you, you, you know, it's a blur, right? You've g- grow up in a household that's chaos and it's falling to bits and the finances are low and the morale's d- low and, and all it's, it's chaotic and violent and stressful and the blinds are closed 'cause the bailiffs knock on every day. Like, it- it- it- it clouds what the answers are, 'cause the answers are actually quite sophisticated. But for me, it's interesting. I've- I've got a song called "The, The Ten Graft Commandments," you know, and I, and I say, "Stage One is make it, maintain it." And what I'm talking about is, you know, in society if you've got no money, you're just gonna come unstuck just because it's the way that, it's the way that things are sort of built up. You- you're just not gonna get much free time, you're not gonna get time to think, not gonna get time to be yourself. You've got no social mobility, you can't, you can't go to the places you wanna go. And, you know, some people need to heal, man. And that's why I've tried to make the songs that touch on certain topics because people sort of are out there desperately needing to heal but without the freedom that money can bring-

   9. CWChris Williamson1:03:10

      Mm-hmm.

   10. BMBugzy Malone1:03:10

       ... you don't get the time to a- address-

   11. CWChris Williamson1:03:12

       Yeah.

   12. BMBugzy Malone1:03:13

       ... um, certain situations, you know? So yeah, in, in my calculations, which I'm quite accurate by the way, a lot of the time. I feel like even when I'm wrong, I was right. And in my calculations I thought, "First of all, I need some dough, point blank."

   13. CWChris Williamson1:03:32

       Mm-hmm.

   14. BMBugzy Malone1:03:33

       "And I'll get more sophisticated when I get there," you know. So when I got to a place where the dust had settled and I wasn't, like, new money anymore and I didn't feel like I was gonna go tumbling back to level one, which it probably felt like that for 10 years, I, I started to study on a sort of deeper, deeper level because these, these, these facets-

   15. CWChris Williamson1:03:57

       Well, rule two is protect, protect your energy, right?

   16. BMBugzy Malone1:04:00

       Yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:04:03

       It's interesting when... You're right. It wasn't everything, but it was the first thing. It's the launch velocity that gets you off the, the launchpad.

   18. BMBugzy Malone1:04:16

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:04:16

       Right? That initial start. And without that there is a co- there's multiple costs that you pay and you can't do much without it. Uh, but I think assuming that that was good and got me here means that that is all I'll ever need and is what will fix the remainder of the problems in my life-

   20. BMBugzy Malone1:04:35

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:04:35

       ... is where people get stuck.

   22. BMBugzy Malone1:04:37

       Oh yeah, 'cause you, you... And by, and like, look, by the way, that's why I say sort of be inspired because if somebody comes from a two-parent household where the parents done well and the kid was able to go to university and whatever, like, it don't make that person any less of a, a person, right? They're still gonna have their challenges. And, and you gotta sort of respect the parents for building a platform. But that child has still got his own challenges moving forward. He can still fall to complete pieces, you know? So it, it, it applies no matter where anybody sort of starts. But if you've got no, um, financial intelligence, if there's no one to teach you about money, then you just think that money changes everything. You just think that it's the answer to everything. And it's not until you achieve them sort of financial goals, a certain car, certain house size or whatever, that you're like... 'Cause you can see the trophy, right? It's there. And then you pick it up and it's completely hollow and you're like, "Oh no," because I thought inside that trophy was gonna be the answers to all my trauma, all my pain, all my fractured and damaged relationships with family members that are dysfunctional and haven't transcended it. And I thought it was gonna really... And it's like, no, no, no. What this does is gives you the f- the freedom to do the work.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:06:01

       (laughs)

   24. BMBugzy Malone1:06:03

       And yeah, it's like-

   25. CWChris Williamson1:06:03

       Oh, you're telling me that this money is the entry ticket-

   26. BMBugzy Malone1:06:07

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:06:08

       ... into the assault course, which I now have to go and do.

   28. BMBugzy Malone1:06:10

       You gotta invest in yourself. Self-investment all the way through. And, and that's what, that's what had to happen. I, I remember, I remember bu- I remember buying a, a Lamborghini off the showroom, right? I'm... So it's five, six, seven years ago. I'm much younger and I'm brash. I need rappers in London to know I'm serious. "You guys think you're serious? Like, we're not playing." So I'm big and boisterous about it. I'm filming myself on Instagram. I was one of the early adopters of, like, doing dumb shit on Instagram to, like, have people take notice.

   29. CWChris Williamson1:06:44

       Yeah.

   30. BMBugzy Malone1:06:44

       So I'm in the bank like, "Yeah, I need to, um, put 200,000 down please."So, I buy this car and then I get it all blacked out, so everybody knows, like, it's paid for. You know, my name on the wheels and stuff. And I remember, like, as I go to drive off the showroom, I don't know what I thought was gonna happen. I probably thought I was gonna take off and fly to Mars and, like, the rest was history. I come off the showroom and I was like, "Oh. Oh, like, nothing's changed." Not only has nothing changed, now I actually understand that financial gain isn't gonna change certain things. Like, I'm still stressed out about that thing I was stressed out about this morning. I'm excited 'cause I'm driving a Lamborghini.
10. 1:13:54 – 1:25:04

    Is Fame a Cage?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:13:54

       I love the idea of objectification. Uh, I've been thinking about this a lot. I was sat next to Tucker Max. You know who he is?

    2. BMBugzy Malone1:14:03

       No.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:14:03

       So he wrote a book called I Hope There's Some Beer In Hell. He was a-

    4. BMBugzy Malone1:14:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:14:06

       It was called Fratire. So it was, um, uh, 10, 15 years ago. He was a young guy drinking and partying and fucking women and writing about his exploits. It was like, um, American Pie the book, right?

    6. BMBugzy Malone1:14:25

       Okay.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:14:25

       Like, kind of like that. And it was, like, semi-memoiry stuff, and he was really fantastic. Then he went away, did a ton- like, five years of daily psychotherapy, uh, and came back a changed person.

    8. BMBugzy Malone1:14:37

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:14:38

       Much more aligned.

    10. BMBugzy Malone1:14:39

        Mm-hmm.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:14:39

        Uh, still very confident, but much more aligned. And I sat next to him at dinner in Austin where I live now, and we were talking about objectification. And he was saying to become successful as a man is to agree to allow the world to see you as a resource to be extracted from or a human to be objectified. Says that women have it in a different way. Women get objectified because of, uh, what they are, how they present-

    12. BMBugzy Malone1:15:08

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:15:09

        ... how people see them in the world.

    14. BMBugzy Malone1:15:10

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:15:11

        Men get objectified because of who they are and what they can offer you, and people see you as a resource to be extracted from.

    16. BMBugzy Malone1:15:19

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:15:19

        And, um, just that idea whenever I think about male objectification 'cause we think about McConaughey or Brad Pitt or, you know-

    18. BMBugzy Malone1:15:28

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:15:28

        But I don't think that that's most objectification that happens toward men. I think it's somebody that has fame and you want to be in the blast radius-

    20. BMBugzy Malone1:15:38

        Mm-hmm.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:15:38

        ... of that. You wanna be in the containment zone.

    22. BMBugzy Malone1:15:40

        Yeah, that's a good way of putting it, yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:15:41

        Um, trickle down effect of somebody that has wealth and you want the opportunities. "Oh, they get first access to investment deals or maybe they can give me some advice." And it's not reciprocal and it's transactional and transient, uh, and disposable. And, um, I like the idea of sitting with somebody and not even necessarily having to talk about their work, not having to talk about the thing, but just seeing how they operate. And you can learn just as much from that as you can... Matthew McConaughey, I mentioned before we started, he's coming back on soon. I learned as much from watching the way that he talked about his tennis shoes. He wouldn't fucking shut up about these tennis shoes. "These are the fastest tennis shoes on the market. I go straight from here to the tennis court." Like, but just passion, commitment, charisma, kindness. Open to the room. So he wasn't bothered about sitting straight. He decided to come in and he put his chair right out to the side.

    24. BMBugzy Malone1:16:40

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:16:41

        He sat like this and he's like, "These tennis shoes, fastest tennis shoes on the market." And he's just talking to everybody that was sat there. And I just thought, "So fucking cool." Nothing about how you do a movie, nothing about how you act. And he's there and he's got nothing in his mouth. He's like s- s- s- the way he does, like does this. It's like so cool. But yeah, to become... To be successful as a man is to agree to be a resource to be extracted from or a human to be objectified.

    26. BMBugzy Malone1:17:14

        Yeah. And it's- it's a- that's a difficult position to- to exist in, especially if you're street smart. You know, they say, the- the terminology, you can't kid a kidder.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:17:29

        Mm-hmm.

    28. BMBugzy Malone1:17:30

        And people are trying to warm you up and, you know, they've- they've- they've got a goal in mind of what they're gonna extract from you. And what you're supposed to be is you're supposed to be, um, blind to the fact that that's what they're doing. And if you're not and if you do come from a situation where you're street smart, you know, or sharp-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:17:53

        Mm.

    30. BMBugzy Malone1:17:53

        ... you see it coming every single time.

Episode duration: 2:31:40