How Social Media Fuels Our Insecurities - Mike Thurston

Chris Williamson 0:00 Male body dysmorphia-

Mike Thurston 0:01 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 0:01 ... is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within the next few decades. Does that surprise you?

Mike Thurston 0:08 No, I think it's always been a thing. But especially now, with how big social media is and how jacked so many people are, uh, I think of course it's a, it's a big problem. But did you know there's a guy who's really good at calling people out for editing their photos?

Chris Williamson 0:23 No. Who? Who?

Mike Thurston 0:23 You've seen that guy. This, oh God, I don't know his name, but he's got quite a big social media following. And basically anybody who has Photoshopped their photo or videos-

Chris Williamson 0:32 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 0:33 ... he gets them.

Chris Williamson 0:34 Oh, wow.

Mike Thurston 0:34 So he's doing a good job. He's making sure that people are being truthful with the things that they're posting. But that makes you think how many people are editing. Even people who are literally jacked and shredded-

Chris Williamson 0:46 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 0:46 ... they are still-

Chris Williamson 0:47 Pushing it even further.

Mike Thurston 0:48 ... editing their photos further to bring in their waist, bring out the lats. And just, it's crazy. So especially with women as well, imagine how bad that is for the average person who is comparing themselves to all these people.

Chris Williamson 1:01 Hmm.

Mike Thurston 1:02 And a lot of those people are actually s- still editing their photos to look even more unattainable.

Chris Williamson 1:06 You've gone, yeah, they've peaked. They've just trained, they've got a pump, they're in good lighting. They've got a good photographer, a good camera, good lens. They've got a tan, blah, blah, blah. And then on top of that, they're editing their photos as well.

Mike Thurston 1:17 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:18 Yeah. It- it's, you know.

Mike Thurston 1:19 I think that, th- that's, it's one thing that messed me up a little bit when I competed. So I competed twice. And obviously when you compete, that really is the best that you are going to look-

Chris Williamson 1:31 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 1:31 ... probably in your life. Especially for me, in terms of how low I got in my body fat percentage. So when I would look in the mirror, particularly after the show, when it was like more memorable, I'd be, "Oh, I'm pretty fat."

Chris Williamson 1:45 Because you had yourself as a previous icon.

Mike Thurston 1:46 Because I was comparing myself to the sub 10% body fat person that I was looking in the mirror. Which is like, it's-

Chris Williamson 1:53 Well, that says it all. That not only can you have other people out there in the world, the guys and girls that make them feel uncomfortable about their body, or they're taller, or more jacked, or more whatever. But you can also be that for you too.

Mike Thurston 2:08 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:09 You know? This is, I wanted to talk about this. Like, you know, you're 34?

Mike Thurston 2:12 33.

Chris Williamson 2:13 33? I'm 35. And we're getting to the stage where we're like, "Right, okay." You know, recovery from workouts takes a little bit longer.

Mike Thurston 2:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:21 Recovery from nights out takes an awful lot longer. You're thinking-

Mike Thurston 2:24 A couple more wrinkles on the forehead. My photographer keeps reminding me of that. Cheers, Rob.

Chris Williamson 2:29 Don't listen to him.

Mike Thurston 2:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:30 Don't listen to him. Uh, yeah. Just thinking about as that happens, you almost use yourself as, "Well, I used to be X or Y."

Mike Thurston 2:39 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:39 "I used to be this, able to get up and, and train hard, or lift this much, or be this lean, or eat this many calories," or whatever. And then you can't.

Mike Thurston 2:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:49 So you use yourself as your own barometer. And you know, the discomfort that's associated with that-

Mike Thurston 2:55 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:55 ... of not being as jacked as you used to be-

Mike Thurston 2:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:57 ... not being as able to recover from workouts as you used to be. It's like a harsh realization. Like-

Mike Thurston 3:03 The, the body dysmorphia, I think with me in particular, I've, I've not really been that person that's always compared myself to others. But more so I'm always comparing myself to myself, and how good I have looked in the past.

Chris Williamson 3:16 Mm.

Mike Thurston 3:17 That's what I'm always comparing myself to. And you're right, I think fortunately for me now, I still feel like I'm, I, I don't know if I have peaked. I think, especially if I was to fine-tune a few things-

Chris Williamson 3:29 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 3:30 ... the peak is still yet to come.

Chris Williamson 3:31 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 3:32 But when I do have these thoughts of, "Okay, well, it's only downhill from here."

Chris Williamson 3:37 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 3:38 Then I'm like ...

Chris Williamson 3:39 You do know that (clears throat) I, I think about that, and this, whatever you want to call about, like aging gracefully as a man.

Mike Thurston 3:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:45 Whatever that means, right?

Mike Thurston 3:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:47 Uh, probably not taking all of your self-worth from the way you look might be a good place to start.

Mike Thurston 3:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 3:54 And I think, "Oh, you know, how difficult it's going to be, uh, the recovery from the workouts, and not being as jacked, and not being the fastest guy in the room, or the strongest guy in the room," or whatever. But then you realize that that's like women from age 25.

Mike Thurston 4:07 Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we as men have got it good.

Chris Williamson 4:10 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 4:10 Like, we can, we can get older and age, and get the, the, the gray whiskers, more wrinkles. And if anything-

Chris Williamson 4:18 And still look good.

Mike Thurston 4:18 ... it's still kind of ... It might even make you look better. Like I remember, I looked back at some footage from when I was even like 20, 27, 28. And I feel personally I look a lot better now.

Chris Williamson 4:31 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 4:31 Like I had like ... Maybe it didn't help that I was like clean, shaving myself all the time. But I looked nice.

Chris Williamson 4:36 You grow into it, your style a little bit.

Mike Thurston 4:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:37 But yeah. You know, for, for all the I can be chronically fearful of my own mortality and getting older and all the rest of it-

Mike Thurston 4:44 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 4:45 ... thinking, yeah, but the speed of descent isn't as rapid as it is for-

Mike Thurston 4:51 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:51 ... women. So yeah. The, the male body dysmorphia thing being on track to overtake female body dysmorphia kind of doesn't surprise me. Um-

Mike Thurston 4:57 I think you, you probably just have to be careful with who you're following and who you're comparing yourself to. Like if-

Chris Williamson 5:02 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 5:02 ... if you were an average guy and you are following the (laughs) like top 1% of athletes in the world, or the top 0.01%, of course you're gonna feel pretty small in comparison to them.

Chris Williamson 5:14 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 5:14 So it depends. Like for someone like me, if I am following like the elite-

Chris Williamson 5:19 You trained with Kai Greene this morning.

Mike Thurston 5:21 Yeah. So but it, so it's-

Chris Williamson 5:23 Chris Bumstead's in town at the moment.

Mike Thurston 5:24 So if I, if I'm following them, I'm the type of person that gets inspired by it. Like I- I get motivated by that.

Chris Williamson 5:30 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 5:30 But other people can take it the opposite way and be like, "Oh, that's unachievable. I'll never get there, and I feel worthless."

Chris Williamson 5:39 Yeah. What's your relationship like with social media now?

Mike Thurston 5:43 Oh. I think I would love to not have to be on it so much. But I know it's something which I need to be doing regularly more than ever. Like you, especially with what we do in today's day and age, you have to be everywhere. Um, even to this day, I don't like how I still get sucked into it every single time in terms of the, the doom scrolling.

Chris Williamson 6:07 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 6:07 I go on there to do a task.... then I get distracted by something, and then I'm scrolling. Then I-

Chris Williamson 6:13 Still haven't done the math.

Mike Thurston 6:14 (laughs) And I'm like, "Oh, 15 minutes? Fucking hell." I'm like, "Hang on, I didn't-

Chris Williamson 6:18 I didn't do the thing. (laughs)

Mike Thurston 6:18 ... do the thing I was supposed to do." So you have to go back onto it again.

Chris Williamson 6:20 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 6:20 So I think, um, yeah, from that point of view, how, I hate how good it is at just sucking you in and rewarding you-

Chris Williamson 6:28 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 6:28 ... for just getting, like, a notification or whatever. Um, in terms of, like, YouTube and stuff, I'm, I'm, I'm quite selective with what I consume. Like, uh, when I go onto YouTube, I like to watch things which I'm going to no doubt get educated by. I like to watch a lot of podcasts, anything which I'm gonna learn something by. Instagram as well, it's, it's, it's a bit of a mess. I have a t- I like now to employ as many people as possible to just run the platforms-

Chris Williamson 6:56 Be the buffer.

Mike Thurston 6:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:57 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 6:57 So that I don't have to go onto it. I still... Actually, it's a recent thing, I don't look at comments anymore.

Chris Williamson 7:03 Okay.

Mike Thurston 7:04 That used to still mess with your head. I think particularly, like, with the, the gym-related videos, I would do a gym workout or try and do an educational video talking about, like, uh, how to do this exercise or whatever. And then the comment section's all steroids, steroids, steroids, steroids, steroids. "Why are you lying to us?

Chris Williamson 7:21 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 7:21 Fake natty." And it's just like, "I'm, I'm trying to help people, yet the c- the whole conversation is about whether or not I'm natural."

Chris Williamson 7:29 Hm.

Mike Thurston 7:29 And it used to annoy me so much that I actually pivoted away from making gym videos 'cause it was so annoying that I just-

Chris Williamson 7:34 Because no one's talking about your supposed steroid use in a lifestyle vlog in Marbella?

Mike Thurston 7:39 Yeah. So, like, the, the less gym-related stuff in it-

Chris Williamson 7:42 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 7:43 ... the, there's kind of less, uh, negativity.

Chris Williamson 7:45 Dude, I mean, that's, that's something that's really true, that the audience gets to influence the direction of the creator in a lot of ways. And if they make them feel very uncomfortable about whatever it is that they're doing-

Mike Thurston 7:59 Mm-hmm. That's wh-

Chris Williamson 7:59 ... they're gonna start to lean away from that type of content.

Mike Thurston 8:01 And this was, was one of the reasons why I got a hair transplant. 'Cause when I was losing my hair and it was thinning really badly, and when I look back at it now, I was, like, poof, like, it was pretty bad. And I was like-

Chris Williamson 8:09 I don't ever remember it being that bad, was it?

Mike Thurston 8:11 No, but it was pretty bad. I was, there was a, a six-month phase where probably should've just shaved it. Like, you know how when everyone's losing their hair they try and just cling onto it?

Chris Williamson 8:19 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 8:20 And you've just got, like, little strands-

Chris Williamson 8:22 Mm.

Mike Thurston 8:22 ... just, you know, it's looking-

Chris Williamson 8:24 The Alan Shearer.

Mike Thurston 8:24 ... pretty pathetic and lonely. And the whole comments section was just about, "Ah, he's losing his hair," like, "Oh, the steroids again," like, "Ugh."

Chris Williamson 8:32 Wow.

Mike Thurston 8:32 And it was just, like, I'm making these videos, yet all everybody wants to talk about is the hair loss.

Chris Williamson 8:37 Yeah. Well, we spoke about this the last time that I had you on, uh, I mentioned that I admire the fact that you've chosen to stay out of internet drama-

Mike Thurston 8:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 8:47 ... as best you can. I think that's partly both yours and my disposition.

Mike Thurston 8:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:51 Which is, I'm just not very conflicty person. I quite like having, being chill and-

Mike Thurston 8:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 8:56 ... and, and peaceful and relaxing, and I'm not in it for the beef. But there's certainly... It feels extra unfair if you haven't done, made a career out of, like James Smith-

Mike Thurston 9:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:07 ... right? My partner in Nutonic. He made a career calling people out for, like, shit fitness advice or for lying about stuff or for editing photos or for do- being, you know, unethical. It's kind of open season-

Mike Thurston 9:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:19 ... for him. Because guess what? Like, that's the way that you went about things. I knew, like, as we were in the build-up launching this drink, and he started doing call-out videos about Prime-

Mike Thurston 9:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:27 ... and everything else, and I was like, "James, you do-"

Mike Thurston 9:30 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 9:30 "... know that by doing this, you're just-"

Mike Thurston 9:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:33 "... making it open season on us?" But anyway, for him, it's like, all right, well, you know, if you've spent a lot of time criticizing other people, it's kind of open season on you. That's not to say that people who've never criticized should be, uh, insulated from any criticism.

Mike Thurston 9:47 Mm.

Chris Williamson 9:47 But-

Mike Thurston 9:48 It's just like, "Hang on, what have I done to you?"

Chris Williamson 9:50 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 9:50 (laughs) Like-

Chris Williamson 9:51 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 9:51 ... why, why are you dragging me into this?

Chris Williamson 9:52 Yeah. But-

Mike Thurston 9:53 And in, in a way, I was, it's kind of good in one sense because it's exposure.

Chris Williamson 9:58 Yes.

Mike Thurston 9:58 But when it is a person of authority talking shit about you-

Chris Williamson 10:02 Mm.

Mike Thurston 10:03 ... then they have a l- a, a huge audience who do listen to every word that they say.

Chris Williamson 10:08 Big influence.

Mike Thurston 10:10 And it's kind of a, it's a, only one argument is being put forward. Of course you could do a response video and give your side of it, but where does it end? And then they're like, "Yes, he f-"

Chris Williamson 10:21 Never mind. I've got him. I've got him. Yeah. Yeah, but I think, you know, even for the people that aren't content creators, everybody, especially with TikTok, TikTok is so, the number of followers you have basically doesn't count. If you put an insane video on TikTok-

Mike Thurston 10:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:37 ... guess what? There's a million likes on it. You know, if it's really, really good and you catch the algorithm at the right time, et cetera, et cetera. Which means now that everybody, content creator or mother that happens to take a funny video of her dog doing something, is open to the entire internet saying, "Oh, that's, that's animal abuse."

Mike Thurston 10:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 10:54 Or whatev- You know what I mean? Like, there's just, everybody's open to criticism. And I think (clears throat) some kind of education about how to deal with criticism from strangers on the internet would probably be a pretty good thing-

Mike Thurston 11:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:10 ... for everybody to learn.

Mike Thurston 11:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 11:12 Uh-

Mike Thurston 11:12 Well, I, I remember th- when I started with YouTube, I think whenever you're on a platform that people can post anonymously, they'll go harder. They'll be more relentless with what it is-

Chris Williamson 11:22 Mm.

Mike Thurston 11:23 ... that they wanna say. And I think that took me-

Chris Williamson 11:25 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 11:25 ... a bit of getting used to, and I almost had to learn, "Okay, I've gotta develop thick skin here-"

Chris Williamson 11:31 Mm.

Mike Thurston 11:31 "... in order to just carry on with doing it." I mean, even the people who are, like, the, the nicest guys ever that you would just, and girls, you just think, "How can you not like this person? Like, such a likable person." They're still getting hate for something.

Chris Williamson 11:46 Tons and tons of distaste. Yeah, well, there's an idea called the bystander effect. Do you, have you heard of this?

Mike Thurston 11:51 No.

Chris Williamson 11:51 So, um, you have a, a, a crime. Let's say somebody's being attacked, right, in the, um, courtyard of a bunch of flats somewhere. And everybody that lives in the flats hears the attack going on and there's someone, you know, screaming for help or saying, "Please ring the police," or whatever. All of the people think that one of the other people will do the right thing and call the police-

Mike Thurston 12:13 Mm.

Chris Williamson 12:13 ... or whatever. Bystander effect. And-There's kind of a- an anonymity equivalent here, which is when you know that you're not going to be found out, you can almost lean in and be a little bit- you'd be way more mean. No one's gonna come after you. You're not going to be held accountable for the things you say. If it's a burner account on YouTube, like, you know, I mean, s- dude some of the stuff, like, antisemitism and stuff that's happened this year on-

Mike Thurston 12:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:36 ... on, like, random comment threads. And I'll see people talking in code about, like, or, like, you know, whatever, reverse antisemitism. Crazy.

Mike Thurston 12:43 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:44 Crazy, crazy

Chris Williamson 12:45 stuff. One of the things I was interested in, one of the reasons I asked about the male body dysmorphia thing and- and your relationship with social media. I don't think I've asked you this. What drove you in the first place to dedicate so much time to going to the gym and building a business and- and doing stuff like that? Because it's been a very, very long road.

Mike Thurston 13:04 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 13:04 Significantly more consistent than most people are. And now it might be habit, but what was it originally?

Mike Thurston 13:10 I think originally on the back end of when Facebook was at its peak and then when Instagram started, I think I just liked being able to showcase all the hard work that I had put in with the gym. I was like, oh, like, this is an opportunity to show the world, like, this is what I've achieved.

Chris Williamson 13:27 But what about before that? What about when you started training? Like, why did you start training?

Mike Thurston 13:32 Oh, right. So (sighs) I think it was probably a combination of a few different things, 'cause I was playing rugby for a solid nine years. And I enjoyed it, but I think near the end of last few years of playing rugby, like it's, maybe I didn't like the idea of being in a team. And I- I've- I've became very frustrated sometimes when I wanted to do something, like I wanted to switch this game around, but I had to rely on the other 14 players to sort their shit out, that I felt like a lot of time I was out of control. Sort of, I liked the way that the gym thing was a very individual thing. It was like, it was y- just about you, you're in complete control. Um, I remember the first time when I- I- I- I remember just walking into this- the gym at the school that I went to, I think I was probably 17 years old. And nobody was there, wasn't really a thing. There was no, I had no idea what I was doing, but I- I put, like, my favorite music on the speakers and just started, like, just using a few of the machines. And I was just super happy doing it. And then I remember looking in the mirror and saw a little bit of a pump, and I was like, "Fucking hell, like, I look good." So it was the- the instant reward that you would get from going to the gym, which made me almost want more of it. And then I think I always wanted to just be a- a bigger guy. Like, I remember this one point when I was on, um... I don't know if I was 15 or 16, ended up getting mugged on a bus. So I was- I was on a bus.

Chris Williamson 14:57 Where were you from, Leeds?

Mike Thurston 14:58 Leeds, yeah. Double-decker bus. And, yeah, these two guys came on and basically just started fucking with me, and then wanted to take my money. And I felt completely useless. I couldn't do anything about it. I was like a little skinny kid back then. So I was shook by the whole experience, and I felt, like, completely unprepared for any kind of confrontation, um, that I thought, "Well, I need t- I need to put on some size." Like, I know maybe I should learn how to fight, but the easiest thing for me to do right now is just to look like the type of guy that you probably wouldn't want to get in a fight with. But it's been, I think it's been pretty good, the fact that I've been able to put on size. I don't, I'm not the type of person that people come up to and want to start a fight with (laughs) , which is good, most of the time, which is good.

Chris Williamson 15:44 You can-

Mike Thurston 15:44 I- I- I never go looking for trouble.

Chris Williamson 15:46 You can't overshoot that. There's definitely a size that you get to where people want to just-

Mike Thurston 15:49 Yeah, people are like, "I want to fucking drop this guy." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:51 Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. You're in the, you're in this Goldilocks zone in the middle.

Mike Thurston 15:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:54 Yeah, I think, um... It's so nice to hear that, to hear... And it was the same for me. Like, I was, you know, skinny kid, picked on sometimes in school for not being as- as, like, big as everybody else or whatever. And I didn't want to be like that.

Mike Thurston 16:07 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:07 I wanted, I wanted to feel like I had more physical formidability.

Mike Thurston 16:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:14 And, um...

Mike Thurston 16:15 I don't, I don't know if it had something to do with me. I used to be, like, really awkward with girls as well. So I don't know if that had, uh... Maybe my chat was so bad that I thought, "Well-"

Chris Williamson 16:24 Compensate by bigging up. (laughs)

Mike Thurston 16:24 "... to cap, to compensate for this horrendous chat that I have, at least I can look good, and then I don't have to do as much work." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:32 Mm-hmm. My social anxiety doesn't matter as much.

Mike Thurston 16:34 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 16:35 But- But even with that, man, like, all of these things are the pure, beautiful reasons why guys start going to the gym.

Mike Thurston 16:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:44 And a good chunk of that, I think, has been lost in talk about body dysmorphia and comparison and- and, you know, uh, unrealistic male body image standards and stuff like that. But so much of it is just, "I want to feel more like a man-"

Mike Thurston 17:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:00 "... when I've still got kind of the body of a boy."

Mike Thurston 17:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 17:03 "And I want to be more attractive to women, and I want to be more confident."

Mike Thurston 17:06 Mm-hmm. I- I- I don't understand why all men don't want to try and improve their physique and the way they look, because so much of what I have achieved to this point in time has come from my physique. Like, it- it's crazy how many doors it's opened for me. But at the same time, just the- the confidence that it gives you. I know there's quite a lot of big, jacked guys who are, you know, just don't have that confidence. But if th- if you are unhappy about your life or there's- there's something not going right, uh, the- the easiest thing you can do is just to at least try and sort out your physical appearance. And usually, once you sort that out, good things start coming after that.

Chris Williamson 17:45 The bar is set pretty low as well.

Mike Thurston 17:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:47 If you go, if you do push per leg split three times a week for a year, you're probably in the top 1% of all fitness people.

Mike Thurston 17:53 But that's- that's really all- all you need.

Chris Williamson 17:54 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 17:54 I think a lot of people, they get, um, confused, and they think, "Oh, well, if- in order to look like that, or if I want to look better, then I have to go to the gym six times a week, and I have to start eating this boring stuff every single day."

Chris Williamson 18:07 Hmm.

Mike Thurston 18:07 In reality, you don't need to do that. It's- it's just the- the consistent efforts every single week. But most people, they go through periods, whether it be a few weeks or a few months, where everything's going good, and then it just, it stops.

Chris Williamson 18:22 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 18:23 And then people will come up to me, they're like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm just kind of unhappy with my shape at the moment." I'm like, "So well, tell me about your, your training. What's it been like?" And they say, "Oh, yeah, f- so I haven't really been to the gym for the past six months." I'm like, "How have you not been to the gym for the past six months?" Like, of course, you're not where you wanna be because you've done six months of nothing. Like, you should be doing something every single week. Even if you have a bad week and you train twice, it's still better than doing nothing.

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Chris Williamson 19:44 What's

Chris Williamson 19:45 that sort of journey taught you about where confidence comes from? Because it has to come from something more than-

Mike Thurston 19:51 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:51 ... simply the way that you look.

Mike Thurston 19:53 Yeah. I learned that. I think it, it's, it's many different areas of life. I don't think I was fully... I was fully content and comfortable with the person that I was probably at the age of 20, 27, 28. I just feel like at that point in time, I was like, "Okay, yeah. My, my shit is sorted now." I think a lot of it came from being financially comfortable as well.

Chris Williamson 20:17 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 20:17 I feel like it's quite hard to be com- to be comfortable, or not, not comfortable sort of, confident when you have no money in your account. Like, you-

Chris Williamson 20:26 That'd be difficult.

Mike Thurston 20:26 ... you could, you could look the part, you could be, you know, great with women or great at talking. But let's say, for example, if I was in a room full of very successful entrepreneurs that had a lot of money, I would feel the absolute opposite of confident. I'd be like, "Wow, I really have nothing to offer in this situation right now." So the moment I got my finances sorted, I was happy with my physique, the way I looked, the lessons which I had learned from previous relationships and just from previous work experiences.

Chris Williamson 20:59 What about the, uh, social confidence or the confidence with women as well though?

Mike Thurston 21:05 I think that came from just experience o- of having lots of different relationships, because I just... Like now, i- if or in the past few years when I'd been dating someone the first time I'd go on a first date, it's just like, "Oh, here we go again." Like you just know, you know what to do, you know what to say, and everything is, is good. But I, I think as well this, being on YouTube has helped massively. So I have drastically improved my ability to speak in front of the camera, speak in front of like lots of different people to be able to have a conversation with someone, to be able to entertain the audience that's watching you. That has massively helped with my social interactions. 'Cause most of the time, well, I'm more introverted, like if you look at the introverted-extroverted scale, I'm more on th- in the introverted side. I think to be before the days of YouTube, I was a lot more introverted. Like I had my, my group of friends and my social circle, but you'd never see me come out of my shell unless I was with my closest friends. And even then, if I was in a situation with like a lot of people, I'd be the quiet guy not really saying anything, I would just listen. So the, the whole journey through the social media, the YouTube, has helped me to come out of my shell, and I'm a lot more, you know, confident now, I have a lot more to say. But there's still that introverted aspect to me where, let's say for example, you've had a day full of socializing, talking, whatever, I come back home and I'm like-

Chris Williamson 22:31 Dead.

Mike Thurston 22:32 And I need to be alone just to recharge. So it's, uh, yeah. I think... I always ask myself this, and I want to ask you this as well. If there's one thing that you could change about yourself, what would it be?

Chris Williamson 22:43 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 22:43 Because for me, I think I would like t- if I could be more extroverted, I feel like I would be able to go further with my career and everything that I'm doing, because I would just naturally want to be meeting everyone, going to events, chatting to everyone, like just entertaining everyone. But to me that's like, it's, it, it takes a lot of work-

Chris Williamson 23:02 It's effortful.

Mike Thurston 23:03 ... for me to do that. And even before, sometimes before there's an event, I have to psych myself up to go, 'cause I just want to stay at home and just do my thing-

Chris Williamson 23:12 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 23:13 ... and be alone sometimes. But I'm like, "I need to go to this thing," so I have to, you know, get myself prepared.

Chris Williamson 23:18 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 23:18 And then I go and I do it, and I'm actually really happy after it's done because I went and did something I didn't want to do, and it ended up actually being like really good.

Chris Williamson 23:25 It was a big hill to get over before you do-

Mike Thurston 23:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:26 ... it though. Yeah, I mean, that would certainly be a big... It'd be a huge change for me if I did that. It does, um... Even though standing out the front of 1,000 club nights and meeting a million people, right-

Mike Thurston 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 23:38 ... across a 15-year career, that... It didn't feel like socializing. I wasn't properly invested in all of these people. It was just like-

Mike Thurston 23:48 It's a lot of small talk.

Chris Williamson 23:49 Yeah, yeah. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. Which was good, um-

Mike Thurston 23:52 With drunk people.

Chris Williamson 23:53 With very drunk people.

Mike Thurston 23:55 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:55 But I would have been... I would, I would have liked to have tuned up the extroversion as well, because it does take... it does take a, a, a good chunk of energy for me to go and do that. I've noticed that with these live shows during the meet-and-greet at the end.

Mike Thurston 24:08 Oh.

Chris Williamson 24:09 It's like a high-intensity-

Mike Thurston 24:10 Oh.

Chris Williamson 24:10 ... interval conversation of 500, 600 people in half an hour or 45 minutes. That dude, Peterson, going on this tour that he's done, which is basically a permanent, a permanent world tour, and, uh, he's meeting-... I think you need to get a special ticket or whatever, so there's maybe 300 people, 400 people a night that have the, like, big dick ticket that allows you to get the, the meet-

Mike Thurston 24:31 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:31 ... and greet. But he's doing it every single night, you know, like, 50 dates, 100 dates a year, I don't know how many. Dude, it's, for me, very, very exhausting. I think that he's kind of a little bit introverted at least as well. So that would be, that would be a huge change. What else do I wish that I would change? I have a good bit of self-doubt, uh-

Mike Thurston 24:50 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 24:51 ... around whether or not I'm doing the right thing or whether I'm doing the thing right.

Mike Thurston 24:55 I think, I think you're doing it right.

Chris Williamson 24:57 I'm trying.

Mike Thurston 24:57 I think certainly now the result, (laughs) the results are showing.

Chris Williamson 24:59 Well, that's the thing, though-

Mike Thurston 25:00 Like, I, I feel like when- when I see you interview these people, I'm like, "Fuck, you were born to do this."

Chris Williamson 25:04 Thank you.

Mike Thurston 25:05 And I think it's like, you've not even really got started yet.

Chris Williamson 25:09 Well, yeah.

Mike Thurston 25:10 Like where, w- what is, what is the goal? You wanna be the number one podcast in the world?

Chris Williamson 25:15 Rogan's got that title, man. Like the guy's a fucking-

Mike Thurston 25:18 I, I liked what Patrick said about the, the three main, uh, characteristics-

Chris Williamson 25:23 Yes.

Mike Thurston 25:23 ... or attributes of a good or the best, uh-

Chris Williamson 25:27 Yes.

Mike Thurston 25:27 ... podcaster.

Chris Williamson 25:28 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 25:28 And one of them is, uh, h- having that natural curiosity and asking the right questions. The other thing is being able to entertain the, the guest, be a good host. And the other one is actually having an audience that really wanna hear your own opinion-

Chris Williamson 25:44 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 25:44 ... on a specific topic.

Chris Williamson 25:46 Yeah. I, I had a, a conversation about this, one of the Q&As at the live show asked about, um, basically are you gonna do more solo stuff over the next few years. And I was so unconfident and so unprepared to think that I was bigger than I am. Like, who am I to spout my opinion-

Mike Thurston 26:08 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:09 ... sat at a table with Andrew Huberman?

Mike Thurston 26:11 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:11 Like, it's obvious who's the A side here.

Mike Thurston 26:14 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:14 Right? It's obviously him. He's the one that's got the expertise and the, the PhD from Stanford and all the rest of it. Just let him shine. And I'm really good at letting other people shine. But there definitely seems to be... I don't know, there's like, it's, it's good to develop your own opinions around things and to put those forward and to have faith that what you have to say-

Mike Thurston 26:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:34 ... might be of use or of interest to pe- And more than that, to play with ideas. To think, "I wonder what happens, I wonder what people think about this. I've got this idea about this thing, I wonder what people think about that." But I think for a good chunk of time as well, I was just so, uh, concerned about putting something forward that made me look stupid.

Mike Thurston 26:50 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:51 "I'm gonna put this idea forward and, and, um-"

Mike Thurston 26:53 What, of the, the, the live shows?

Chris Williamson 26:55 No, no, no, no. Uh, uh, on the show, on the podcast. So gonna have some idea, I've got a take on-

Mike Thurston 27:00 Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:01 ... whatever the, whatever this thing is. Like, don't comment on things that you know nothing about.

Mike Thurston 27:05 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:05 But when you're sat with an expert-

Mike Thurston 27:06 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:07 ... you're always, you always know nothing in comparison-

Mike Thurston 27:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:10 ... with the expert, even if you know almost everything, in comparison with a normal person that knows nothing about it. Right? So, because you're... I've made a career out of being the most stupid person in every conversation. (laughs) Right?

Mike Thurston 27:20 D- Do you feel like there's a pressure for you to, uh, improve your knowledge in all these different areas? 'Cause you, you've had guests on from every different industry and market.

Chris Williamson 27:32 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 27:32 Like, do you feel like, "Fuck, I need to learn more about this and more about this and more about this?"

Chris Williamson 27:36 Uh, so-

Mike Thurston 27:37 'Cause being a good host is your ability to just have, like, good general knowledge about (laughs) fucking everything.

Chris Williamson 27:45 That's true. So I think... I, I wanted to do this as a challenge, uh, a year ago. I wanted to do a day of recording where I didn't know anything about the guest, I didn't know who they were, and I would just sit down opposite them.

Mike Thurston 27:57 Oh, that's scary.

Chris Williamson 27:57 And I had to try and hold a conversation together-

Mike Thurston 27:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:59 ... without, like, the audience realizing, and me just going like, uh, "So, you know, what do, what do you think most people get wrong about the world that you come from?" Like what do... And just like, like trying to sort of work out without actually asking them, "So what do you do?" Um, I thought that would be kind of fun to do. But-

Mike Thurston 28:14 Did you do it?

Chris Williamson 28:15 I'd, I'd consider, I'd still consider doing it. I, uh, has a big long list of things that I wanna do. But yeah, th- I think one of the reasons why I, I steered clear of putting my own opinion forward was I didn't want to feel silly, I didn't want to say things... The internet can be a bit of a fucking ruthless place with playing-

Mike Thurston 28:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:30 ... with ideas. And, you know, you don't want to, you don't wanna look like the idiot in the room e- more than you already are. But yeah, I, I know enough now to be able to hold a conversation with pretty much anybody.

Mike Thurston 28:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 28:40 Especially if it's about them, right? If it's, uh, we're talking about fitness, we're talking about psychology, we're talking about philosophy, we're talking about politics, we're talking about whatever, it's like, I can draw out of pretty much anyone. When it comes to me having my own takes on stuff, I have things that, you know, I've got domains of expertise. You want to talk to me about training, about mental health, about psychology, evolution, like all of these things I've got. But if we start to push out into, you know, g- g- how are we gonna fix the problems of the Middle East?

Mike Thurston 29:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:05 It's like, "Bro, like it's not, that's not my bag." And then working out where the line is between those two, uh, and not just spouting more noise-

Mike Thurston 29:13 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:13 ... into the world, actually adding some signal which is useful to people, that's kind of... That's something that I'm, maybe I should do more. But then another bit of me thinks, "Well, just bring on the guy that knows and be the person that's able to get the best answer (claps hands) out of them."

Mike Thurston 29:26 Yeah. Ask, ask the right questions.

Chris Williamson 29:26 Yeah. Ask the fucking expert.

Mike Thurston 29:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:28 Like, I don't need to go on WebMD and try and self-diagnose-

Mike Thurston 29:31 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:32 ... like whatever ailment I've got. It's like, just get the doctor, the equivalent of the doctor on, speak to that person.

Mike Thurston 29:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:36 But there's definitely a bit of me that wants to do... that doesn't just only want to be the person that-

Mike Thurston 29:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 29:45 ... uh, plays second string, uh, uh, to the, the expert in the room. Like, it'd be great to be considered an expert in my own right. And yeah, it's, uh, it's interesting getting past that discomfort or that uncertainty about whether or not you have legitimacy-

Mike Thurston 30:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:02 ... because everyone else has a, a million letters after their name or is a PhD or is a billionaire or something, and you go, "What the fuck? Like, why should... Like, I'm just the guy that asks the questions."

Mike Thurston 30:10 Speaking of discomfort, what

Mike Thurston 30:12 was it like the first time doing the show? Like, the very first show?

Chris Williamson 30:15 Live show?

Mike Thurston 30:15 Y- yeah. Were you shitting yourself?

Chris Williamson 30:17 That was n- nerve-wracking. Yeah.

Mike Thurston 30:19 'Cause for me, yeah, the, the thought of that is (laughs) pretty fucking scary.

Chris Williamson 30:25 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 30:26 I think as well, it's...Q&A's fine.

Chris Williamson 30:30 Oh, okay.

Mike Thurston 30:30 But to- to go up there by yourself and to talk for an hour or more about something, like first I was thinking like, "What the hell would I even talk about? Like, what would- would people even want to know?"

Chris Williamson 30:40 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 30:42 Like I- I- I guess I would have to sit down and think about it.

Chris Williamson 30:45 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 30:45 I'm sure that there is an audience out there that wanna hear me talk about something.

Chris Williamson 30:48 Dude, I would- I'd- I'd attend.

Mike Thurston 30:50 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 30:50 Um, but yeah, the live shows that I've done, I just did one in Dubai, and now I fly to Edmonton for 20 hours with James tomorrow morning at 2:00 AM.

Mike Thurston 31:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:00 Which is gonna fucking suck my soul out of me. (coughs) He's managed to book us one of those things that's like the side by side seats as well.

Mike Thurston 31:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 31:10 Like the- with the dividing door. I'm just gonna put the door up and not have to speak to him (laughs) for the entire time.

Mike Thurston 31:14 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:15 But standing on stage, you know, th- this is kind of old trope for people that listen to Rogan and they're always on about you working the material and the crowd energy and the room and the vibe and all this sort of stuff. But it's wild to stand on stage and- and just have, you know, 80 eyes or 1,000 eyes or whatever it was in the Dubai show the other night, like t-

Mike Thurston 31:35 Yeah, there was a lot of people there.

Chris Williamson 31:37 ... like 1,000 people there or whatever, like just looking at you. And you can't see the end of the room.

Mike Thurston 31:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 31:40 It's like it's just endless. And then you look at what Schulz has done, he sold out where the Raptors play in Canada or he just did this place in- in Australia where it's so far away that they need screen- repeater screens to be able to see the fucking dude that's just this little dot down on that.

Mike Thurston 31:55 And he has the pressure of having to say something funny.

Chris Williamson 31:58 Oh, he's gotta be funny. I mean, that's- that-

Mike Thurston 31:59 I mean, like nearly every- every 10, 20 seconds he has to say something funny.

Chris Williamson 32:02 You gotta- you gotta get a laugh. Yeah.

Mike Thurston 32:03 At least you don't have that pressure.

Chris Williamson 32:04 Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it- it's so- such a good insight that if you're doing a- anything close to public speaking and you manage to get four zingers in the space of an hour, like you're hilarious.

Mike Thurston 32:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:16 And if you're a comedian that doesn't get four zingers in a minute, you're shit. (laughs)

Mike Thurston 32:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:20 So (laughs) , um, yeah, the- the criteria's very different. But it- it was- it was very nerve-wracking. Um, I... The most nerve-wracking one that I did was the very first Work In Progress show in Austin. So I ran the show four times in Austin in front of 40 people at this like tiny kind of rundown comedy club, East Austin Comedy Club. And I ran that four times in front of 40 people. But that's kind of even more scary, 'cause you can hear like a cough.

Mike Thurston 32:46 Oh.

Chris Williamson 32:46 Or you can- you can hear like someone's phone vibrate in their pocket.

Mike Thurston 32:49 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:49 You can hear everything. It's just you in a room. I don't even really need a mic, I could probably just speak and everyone would hear. And before I went on, I checked my, uh, Whoop, and you know it's got the stress monitor. My stress is at like 2.-

Mike Thurston 33:00 You've been cycling. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:01 2.8, exactly. (laughs) Nice, good evening workout, Chris.

Mike Thurston 33:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:05 No, no, no, no, I was just, I was just scared. Um, but to be honest, man, after a while I- you're so confident in the material, um, because it's a set.

Mike Thurston 33:13 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:14 Right? It's not scripted, but the ideas, I know this idea's interesting and this idea's interesting and this idea makes people laugh and this idea makes people cry and this idea does whatever. And after a while, you just have faith that what you're saying is important.

Mike Thurston 33:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:26 It'd be like me saying to you, like, "Here's a word for word script that you can say that will make people be interested in what you say and laugh. Learn it off by heart, go on stage and say it, and I can guarantee 100% that it'll be fine." You wouldn't feel nervous. What you're nervous about is the uncertainty of whether or not you're going to look silly up on stage.

Mike Thurston 33:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:42 And after you've done sufficient iterations of anything-

Mike Thurston 33:45 Reps in.

Chris Williamson 33:46 Yeah. It's the same with the show. The only difference is that you don't have the live audience in front of you. Having a live audience in front of you and saying a thing and then watching them and being like, "Please love me."

Mike Thurston 33:56 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:56 Like, or just at least pr- please don't think that I'm totally terrible.

Mike Thurston 34:00 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:00 Um, Jimmy Carr told me, "A true entertainer says, 'If you don't love me, I don't love me.'"

Mike Thurston 34:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:08 And I think that that kind of, I can see how someone whose entire industry is, the audience needs to give me a- adoration, and that's where I get my sense of self-esteem from.

Mike Thurston 34:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:23 Kind of the same, you know, looking at the bodybuilding world, (blows air) which is ruthless, because it's not even a objective metric. It's not, that's 380 kilos. Whichever man that weighs 93 kilos picks that up wins.

Mike Thurston 34:35 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 34:35 It's like, subjective and ephemeral and, you know, it's like he's got better shape or conditioning or proportions or whatever. It's very, very hard. But you're permanently just outsourcing your sense of self-worth to these fucking judges.

Mike Thurston 34:48 Well, yeah, especially if you're- you're competing and it's, yeah, it's the- it's the judges you need to impress. And if for whatever reason they're not impressed, (laughs) they can literally-

Chris Williamson 34:56 Guess what big delts are out this year or-

Mike Thurston 34:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:57 ... like big thighs are in or whatever.

Mike Thurston 34:59 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:59 Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah. I- it, but it's- it's been very interesting. It's been- the veils have kind of fallen from my eyes a little bit about seeing super, super competent people up on stage, because it- they're infinitely better than I am. But you can just see, it's okay, it's just one step after the next. Watching Jimmy Carr in Wembley, he did two hours and 20 minutes of one-liners. Must've been- it must've been 400 jokes in like two and a bit hours. I was like, "Oh my God." And we were with him 30 seconds before he walked out on stage. 'Cause I was checking my watch going like, uh, "You go on stage in 10 minutes. Do you want us to..."

Mike Thurston 35:37 Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:37 'Cause he might need to do some pregame ritual or whatever, get his head in the game. He's like, "No, no, no, it's fine. Stick about. Stick about." And then he was like, "All right, ready to go, boss." And like Jimmy's about to like get the fucking headset on or whatever and walk out on stage, and like, "Should we leave?" And he's like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crack on. I'll see you out there."

Mike Thurston 35:53 Unbelievable.

Chris Williamson 35:53 Crazy. But you see, you know, anyone's just accumulated those skills over time. And I think it's kind of the same with the first time that you did a YouTube video, the first time you did a podcast, the first time you did whatever. There's just this extra degree of-

Mike Thurston 36:06 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:07 ... I can see the people watching.

Mike Thurston 36:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:08 And it's, yeah.

Mike Thurston 36:09 First time I did a podcast I was like, "What am I doing?" (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:12 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 36:12 It was your first one? It was Wil- Wil Ahmed, the founder of- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 36:15 Founder of-

Mike Thurston 36:15 Went straight into the deep end with a- a CEO, founder-

Chris Williamson 36:19 Biohacking guy, yeah.

Mike Thurston 36:19 ... of a billion, billion company. Crazy. But yeah, it's like the moment you start doing more and more of them, it just becomes normal. I can imagine, like especially for you-... doing three a week. You're, what? You're in the 700s now?

Chris Williamson 36:33 This will be 720, something like that. Yeah.

Mike Thurston 36:35 It must be so normal. (sniffs)

Chris Williamson 36:38 Yeah, it is. And that's something that's quite bizarre, um, to do something very alien. I mean, think about this. Porn stars.

Mike Thurston 36:44 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:45 I would love to ask our friend Lauren whether or not it's like, whether there's still intimacy in that.

Mike Thurston 36:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:53 'Cause what you're looking at, a- a conversation like this, usually very messy, very unstructured. Someone will get up and go and do a thing, people are on their phone. You know, there's like, all structural side to things. Plus then, there's cameras. Plus then, there's a team of people.

Mike Thurston 37:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:07 Plus then, there's, you know, it's going out to an audience, and there's gonna be scrutiny, and there's gonna be criticism, there's gonna be whatever. So it's like a, something that you're familiar with, in an alien environment.

Mike Thurston 37:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:16 And I wonder whether porn stars feel the same. Something that you can be quite familiar with, but in a even more alien environment. Like it's, it's this, but porn.

Mike Thurston 37:25 I think, I was speaking to Sterling, he's ex-porn star.

Chris Williamson 37:28 Okay.

Mike Thurston 37:29 And he, he was saying, that ev- that with some actresses, there's just an instant chemistry that you can't really explain, but it's just like a thing.

Chris Williamson 37:38 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 37:38 And it just makes things automatically very spicy and flow naturally. Whereas sometimes it's just like-

Chris Williamson 37:44 Robotic.

Mike Thurston 37:44 ... there's nothing there, and it's just very forced. But yet you have to try and force that chemistry.

Chris Williamson 37:50 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 37:50 Like you can tell when you watch porn if it's like, if they're having a good time or not.

Chris Williamson 37:54 How much porn do you watch?

Mike Thurston 37:55 Oh, it's weird. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 37:56 (laughs) I'm a connoisseur, I'm a connoisseur.

Mike Thurston 37:57 Let's not go there. (laughs) What's porn? (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:00 Yeah. I'm a connoisseur. Um, but yeah, the, it's weird to think, like, can people reintegrate? This is one thing. So I've,

Chris Williamson 38:09 I've been doing therapy in, uh, Austin. And this lady's great, this woman that I've been working with.

Mike Thurston 38:14 Why, why does, why does he need therapy?

Chris Williamson 38:16 I think that everyone does. I genuinely think that everybody would benefit from just-

Mike Thurston 38:19 I would love to have, uh, I don't know if it would be therapy or just to speak to an expert on relationships.

Chris Williamson 38:26 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 38:27 Because I feel like that is something every day, every year, I'm still learning more about relationships and how do they work? Are you with the right person? Like, what? I'm sure there's a lot of things wrong with me. I don't think I'm an easy person to date.

Chris Williamson 38:40 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 38:40 Especially with my, my job, the way I look, social media. It's whoever I'm in a relationship with, they have to be-

Chris Williamson 38:49 They gotta deal with that.

Mike Thurston 38:50 Yeah. They gotta deal with the fact that I'll get attention. And you know, probably if I'm with a really hot girl, which I have been in the past, like, they obviously have attention as well, so.

Chris Williamson 38:58 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 38:58 But I'm cool with that.

Chris Williamson 38:59 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 39:00 It's, um, it's a tricky one. And I think at, like, I- I've always been pretty horrendous at communicating. (laughs) Uh, that's just who I am. Like, I would just, I don't know. It's, I keep, I keep a lot of my feelings to myself and just assume that they know what's going on or that everything's all right. When in reality, you need to have a pretty hard conversation.

Chris Williamson 39:19 Neil Strauss, the guy that wrote The Game, who is now kind of this super aligned, awakened family man, uh, there's this fucking awesome quote from him that said, "Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments."

Mike Thurston 39:34 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:36 Jesus Christ. Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And you know, when you're talking about that, I, I will maybe keep my feelings to myself, I won't really mention something that's either bugging me or that I wish that I would bring up. But you get the sense that the other person-

Mike Thurston 39:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:51 ... should know or might know or could know or whatever.

Mike Thurston 39:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:54 And after a while, you almost end up building a conversation with yourself about the thing that you never said-

Mike Thurston 39:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:59 ... to the person who didn't know it. Um, so yeah. I mean, Bill Perkins, that wrote Die With Zero, one of the most dialed systems guys that I know, uh, Ali Abdaal came out to (laughs) he came out fucking wake surfing with us. Ali had a bad day.

Mike Thurston 40:12 Bet, bet he was good at that. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:14 Dude. Alex O'Connor, cosmic skeptic, came out and stood up first ti- first try. Yousef, my friend, went out e-foiling yesterday over there, stood up within the first session. Ali Abdaal (laughs) , not like... I mean, so just insanely smart. And I think he's got, he's got like... I can't remember what he's good at. He's good at like some physical sport, but like, it wasn't fucking wake surfing. Anyway, he asked Bill Perkins, "What's the number one coach that you've got?" Out of everything, the business coaching, all the rest of it. He was like, "Relationship coach."

Mike Thurston 40:42 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:42 First thing he said, "Relationship coach, most important." They check in. I think both partners work separately and then, uh, they maybe do couples-

Mike Thurston 40:49 I think after-

Chris Williamson 40:50 ... sessions together.

Mike Thurston 40:51 Yeah, to begin with and the honeymoon period is fine. You don't need any help like, it just, it runs itself. But the longer the relationship goes on for, like after a year, after two years, that's when you have to work on it. That's what I've learned.

Chris Williamson 41:02 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 41:02 You know, after a, a two year relationship, there's, there's, there's things you gotta work on. Um, and there's a lot still which I need to learn. I've had a lot of (laughs) relationships that have been six months (laughs) . Put it that way.

Chris Williamson 41:15 Honeymoon period and on and over.

Mike Thurston 41:17 (laughs)

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Chris Williamson 42:21 growth is Sam Sulek.

Mike Thurston 42:23 Oh God, yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:24 What do you think about Sam Sulek?

Mike Thurston 42:27 Uh, uh, I'm f- I am, this is, I'm so fascinated how certain people just pop off on social media. Like I'm trying to understand the, like what has the formula been like-I didn't, I didn't know of him before until his basically kind of ... You see the memes first. You're like, "Why is there a meme about this guy?" And then, uh, you go onto the Instagram, you go onto the YouTube, and you just see, like, the following and the consistently high views. And you're like, "Oh, my, what, what is he, what's he doing then?" And you watch it, and it's just, like, pretty normal. There's no fancy edits or anything cinematic. It's just ... I think the reason why it's worked so well is 'cause he's just gone almost in the opposite direction. Inste- in- in- instead of trying too hard with, like, the showing off and the, the musics, the edits, he's just like, "This is just-

Chris Williamson 43:17 Is there ever-

Mike Thurston 43:17 ... a normal guy."

Chris Williamson 43:18 ... any edits? It's just, it's, as, after the-

Mike Thurston 43:20 No music. He just, like-

Chris Williamson 43:21 ... like, da, da, da, da, dun, dun, dun, dun. Like, after that first thing, it's just straight to the edit.

Mike Thurston 43:24 As far as I know, it's just a camera on a tripod, and he's just doing his thing and sharing his thoughts. Which is very simple, but it, it ki- uh, after watching it, it makes sense why it works, 'cause-

Chris Williamson 43:37 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 43:37 ... he has some in- a lot of insightful things to say.

Chris Williamson 43:41 I think, uh, I heard this term the other day, growth hacking authenticity.

Mike Thurston 43:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:46 Um, and I think that everybody now is so skeptical of someone that's contriving, uh, a, a version of themselves. If you see someone that looks like they're trying too hard-

Mike Thurston 44:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:01 ... or they're putting on a, a particular ... It's just, there's discomfort and ick and, "Oh, I don't-"

Mike Thurston 44:05 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:05 ... "like that." And I think Sam's lack of fancy car or fancy edit or fancy thumbnails or, like, any of that-

Mike Thurston 44:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 44:17 ... is just a signal of reliability. I think that's what people are-

Mike Thurston 44:20 I, I think it's very relatable if you think about how many men are in a similar situation to him. I remember when I, when I started a YouTube channel, like, everything was really basic. I was in, you know, not a ver- it was a terraced house in Newcastle. I was doing my meal prep video in a pretty shabby kitchen.

Chris Williamson 44:38 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 44:38 My pots and pans were all completely fucked up.

Chris Williamson 44:40 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 44:40 Like, there was no lubrication on it. It was just sticking to everything.

Chris Williamson 44:44 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 44:45 And I was just doing my meal prep, shopping at Lidl or Aldi, and just taking it to work with me. And people loved that 'cause so many people could relate to it. And I remember the moment I kind of moved away from that, staying in more fancier places, when I upgraded to my apartment in London, and then I left London and came to Dubai. It was, my audience was divided. There was half of them who were, like, really inspired, and they were like, "Wow," like, "Look what he's done. I want to do this as well." And then there was the other half who were just like, "I, I can't really relate to you anymore." Like, "I can't relate to your life."

Chris Williamson 45:15 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 45:16 The, the-

Chris Williamson 45:16 Well, I mean, make, make no mistake, man. If I was to guess the revenue that Sam is making per month. Forget his Hostile, uh, sponsorship and forget the other stuff. Just from AdSense.

Mike Thurston 45:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:29 I reckon it's at least a quarter of a mil.

Mike Thurston 45:32 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:32 A month.

Mike Thurston 45:32 'Cause he's banging out a video nearly every day, and it's like-

Chris Williamson 45:34 It's daily, daily videos-

Mike Thurston 45:35 ... over half a mil.

Chris Williamson 45:36 ... of, of half a mil, yeah. So it's probably-

Mike Thurston 45:37 But I, I wonder-

Chris Williamson 45:37 ... it's probably quarter of a mil a month.

Mike Thurston 45:39 There is always trends in the industry. Like, S- S- something comes along from nowhere and is very popular.

Chris Williamson 45:47 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 45:48 But there's very few things that remain that popular over a long period of time. Like, will it get to a point where his style of videos are not gonna do it for people? Like, that, that gets to a point where it's, "Oh, it's boring now." Like, "Let me find something. What's the next hot-"

Chris Williamson 46:04 Sam Sulek.

Mike Thurston 46:05 ... "trending thing?"

Chris Williamson 46:06 Yeah. Well, there's definitely, for every trend, there is a counterculture trend. So I said this before. If you want to predict the future, look at the trend that exists now for which there hasn't yet been the exact opposite. So, for every, um, y- let's say, like Mike Thurston, well-edited fitness vlog with like cool, fucking cinematic lighting and a guy with a gimbal and stuff, there's a Sam Sulek. Which is kind of the same thing, but delivered in, in a very different sort of a way. Um, summer 2020, everyone's locked down, no one can go out. Summer 2021, Megan Thee Stallion does Hot Girl Summer. Dress yourself up, go out, you know, like, have casual sex. Like, be dolled-

Mike Thurston 46:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:45 ... and glam. Summer 2022 is Feral Girl Summer, which is be a sloth, don't shave, don't wash. You don't need to be bothered even leaving the house. Just eat beans-

Mike Thurston 46:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:55 ... in your pajamas. So, like, you have culture or trend, and then counterculture or countertrend. And I think that Sam largely is, uh, not necessarily, probably a, a worse example to use you. I don't know who he's quite the antithesis of. But he's definitely counter to much of the fitness industry that is contrived.

Mike Thurston 47:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:17 That's like, um, you know, kind of like the equivalent of the pop idol boy band that was, like, pieced together. But, like, "You're the cool one and you're the whatever one." It doesn't feel like that.

Mike Thurston 47:26 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:26 It's just some bloke going about his day. But ... And I, I said this on a, an episode with Zach, and people got mad about it. I still think it's the truth. If Sam wasn't elite-level jacked, people wouldn't follow him.

Mike Thurston 47:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:41 I think that what works about Sam ... If Sam was some skinny, skinny fat guy-

Mike Thurston 47:46 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:46 ... that wasn't in good condition, wasn't lifting heavy, and didn't have really great insight about fitness, he's just some bloke-

Mike Thurston 47:53 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 47:53 ... going to the gym.

Mike Thurston 47:54 That's a lot of people trying to do that.

Chris Williamson 47:55 That's so m- that's all, that's everyone's YouTube.

Mike Thurston 47:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:57 That's every person's YouTube channel. I think that Sam is a likable, relatable guy who happens to be fucking massive.

Mike Thurston 48:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 48:05 And it's like, "Oh." Like, "He's me, but better."

Mike Thurston 48:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 48:10 He's ... So much of what we have is relatable and is the same. And on top of that, he's, you know, bodybuilder huge.

Mike Thurston 48:18 It's like, I look at CBUM as well. Like, CBUM has this huge, huge f- like he is the biggest name in bodybuilding now. And I try and think, "Well, okay, so why, why is that the case?" Obviously, he, he looks amazing. But he's such a nice, humble guy as well, that I, I can't imagine why anyone would ever have a problem with him. So you combine that super jacked amazing physique with just being a nice, humble guy. And it does, without a doubt-... get harder to remain humble when you have that many people who are idolizing you and you have, like, over-

Chris Williamson 48:52 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 48:52 ... 21 million people following you. To not let that get to your head is-

Chris Williamson 48:56 Well, there's two, two ways that it can get to your head. The first one being your ego is being inflated by everyone thinking that you're great.

Mike Thurston 49:02 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:03 The second one is you becoming defensive and bitter about all of the people criticizing you.

Mike Thurston 49:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:10 So you- it works in two different ways. I'm going to become more harsh and, and more, uh, quick to attack because people have done it to me in the past. And-

Mike Thurston 49:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:20 ... all of these people are telling me that I'm great and I've got five championships. How the fuck am I not, like, the best-

Mike Thurston 49:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:25 ... in the world? And everyone should listen to me.

Mike Thurston 49:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 49:27 It's like hard. It's hard to hold on those things.

Mike Thurston 49:28 Especially if you're combining it with, like, if you're taking, you know, some steroids as well. Like, that can also mess up with your mentality and the way that you're thinking.

Chris Williamson 49:35 Yeah. Yeah, I wonder, you know, the- I was watching, uh, a, a couple of videos from the Trentwins as well. And, uh, they're like- I find them, like, a pretty interesting-

Mike Thurston 49:46 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 49:46 ... uh, interesting pair. Like, they're an interesting pair of dudes. But, uh, Sam is just a fucking phenom at the moment. Uh, what's his face? Cam Hanes brought him up to Rogan yesterday on, uh, on his show. "Have you heard of this Sam Sulek kid?" It's like, there you go.

Mike Thurston 50:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:00 Derek from More Plates More Dates did it as well in a little way. I think he, you know, he purposefully didn't make his, uh-

Mike Thurston 50:05 Yeah, like he, he could have definitely leveled up with the production.

Chris Williamson 50:09 Yep.

Mike Thurston 50:10 But it was like, "No."

Chris Williamson 50:10 "No." People just wanted that, like, relatability-

Mike Thurston 50:14 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:14 ... like, high level insight-

Mike Thurston 50:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:17 ... sprinkling of autism. Like, that's what they wanted-

Mike Thurston 50:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 50:19 ... from their-

Mike Thurston 50:20 C- I, sometimes I try not to get too heavily influenced. 'Cause you know I've had, uh, Iman Gadzhi on the show.

Chris Williamson 50:25 Yes.

Mike Thurston 50:25 And the production quality on his videos is absolutely, like, insane.

Chris Williamson 50:29 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 50:30 Like, best of the best. And then I'm thinking, "Fuck, maybe I need to get to that- that level of production." But I- I don't- I don't need to. I just- just focus on what it is that you're gonna say.

Chris Williamson 50:39 It's your thing, yeah.

Mike Thurston 50:40 'Cause some- if you go too hard with the production, it- it gets a bit distracting and maybe, again, it becomes unrelatable.

Chris Williamson 50:46 How do you think about

Chris Williamson 50:48 enoughness? You know, the- the stress and- and responsibility-

Mike Thurston 50:51 Oh.

Chris Williamson 50:51 ... and paranoia that comes along for the ride with wanting more and success and money-

Mike Thurston 50:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 50:56 ... can kind of sap the fun out of it. Do you think about enoughness?

Mike Thurston 50:59 Yeah. I think, um, it's harder to fall asleep quicker, that's for sure.

Chris Williamson 51:04 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 51:04 'Cause when I go to bed, I'm just thinking about all the things that I need to do, should be doing, and haven't done. So that's taken a hit. 'Cause I remember in my 20s I never had a- I- I remember just, I could just fall asleep straight away. Now it's a lot harder. Um, and yeah, I th- I think especially right now, I'm in a position where if I really want to, I can go full steam ahead and really take things to the next level. Like, the- everything is in my favor. I have the team, I have- you know, I'm living here in Dubai, I'm at a point where I ha- I have a following, I have some respect. So let's go fully into this. But then that's gonna come at a price. And I know if- if that's something which I wanna do, you know, if- if you want all the numbers to be increasing, the subscribers increasing, the views, the money, you know, I'm gonna have to say goodbye to a couple of things. And it's- it's gonna be a sacrifice with relationships, it's gonna be a sacrifice to the things which I like to do sometimes. That's like to just wake up and do nothing and do my own thing, just go for a walk, just chill, take life easy. Like, I- I love nothing more than doing that sometimes. Which I had a kind of experience of doing that over the summer, where I wasn't working as much-

Chris Williamson 52:14 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 52:14 ... and less productive, really just enjoying life and what I've achieved, the fruits of my labor. But then after a couple of days or weeks of doing that, you just feel like, "Fuck, I'm kind of- I'm wasting my potential here. And things are starting to go in the reverse direction." And I think that was quite a s- a sort of scary experience for me. I had a big break from doing the podcast. And I think I got up to, um ... Was it, was it 20 episodes? You know, I- I- I don't think I got myself into that 1%.

Chris Williamson 52:42 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 52:42 I was just shy and I was like-

Chris Williamson 52:43 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Thurston 52:44 ... "Fuck! I'm- I'm the, I'm the statistic." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:45 Me neither. "I'm the guy. I'm the fucking guy." Yeah.

Mike Thurston 52:47 I'm that guy that gave up.

Chris Williamson 52:48 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 52:49 And I- I noticed when I- when I stopped doing the podcast, um, 'cause I didn't have my team with me. I was in- like, traveling about a bit. I just, I think I just wasn't- for whatever reason, I'd lost the motivation a little bit.

Chris Williamson 52:59 Hmm.

Mike Thurston 52:59 But I just felt, um, like I was doing a disservice to my audience. Like, everyone was asking me, it was like, "When's the next episode? When's the next episode?"

Chris Williamson 53:07 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 53:07 And I was just like, "I don't know." I just felt like, "What a fucking waste I am." Like, I have this potential and opportunity to create these amazing conversations with amazing people-

Chris Williamson 53:18 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 53:18 ... but I'd rather just go to a beach club or I'll go on a date with this girl or just fuck about.

Chris Williamson 53:22 Well, there's a pressure that comes with that. And yeah, I think about enoughness a good bit. I wanted- I've got another episode with Hormozi coming up, uh, probably within the next few months. And I wanna try and really dig into it because I know that he's 99th percentile of hardworking-

Mike Thurston 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:37 ... guy. It's very inspiring to be around.

Mike Thurston 53:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 53:41 But I wonder how scalable and replicable that is with people who don't have his very particular-

Mike Thurston 53:49 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:50 ... quirk of mindset and work rate.

Mike Thurston 53:53 I li- I listen to him and I'm like, "Fuck, I would like a little bit more of his-"

Chris Williamson 53:56 Yes.

Mike Thurston 53:56 "... mindset." I- I want more of that, "I like to work. I want to do more work." I- I wanna do less of the, the fun things that people want to do. But one thing-

Chris Williamson 54:05 You do realize, like, saying, "I want to do less of the fun things." Like, why are you doing more of the work? Presumably because the work is fun.

Mike Thurston 54:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:11 It's like the more direct route to it is, is just doing the fun thing.

Mike Thurston 54:16 Yeah. I think if you- if you can find a way that your- your job is fun, then that's- that helps a lot. Like, me and I g- you as well having the opportunity to speak to some amazing people, it's pretty- it's a rewarding job. And having a very positive impact on the world, like, that's- it feels pretty damn good. And it doesn't- doesn't really feel like work. It's a pleasure to be able to do this for a living. I think it's absolutely crazy. Like, even this morning, training with Kai Green, like, what, I get to train with some of the best bodybuilders on the planet. That's a fucking dream.

Chris Williamson 54:48 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 54:49 And I've been able- I've got myself into a position where I can do that.

Chris Williamson 54:51 But there's- there's definitely a- and again, this- I think this is for everybody.You have opportunities that are in front of you. And if you're even remotely competent at what you do, you will always have more opportunities than time to do them in.

Mike Thurston 55:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:04 Is it your role in life to take every single opportunity that comes your way? W- what is life outside of those-

Mike Thurston 55:10 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:10 ... opportunities? Like, how much are you grinding? There's this great quote from Morgan Housel that says, "The best measure of wealth is what you have minus what you want. And by this measure, some billionaires are broke." And it's kind of the same as, you know, what- what do you want from a- an achievement perspective? Like...

Mike Thurston 55:28 You know what's good with me, I feel like a lot of the things I wanted to do, I did in my 20s.

Chris Williamson 55:31 Hmm.

Mike Thurston 55:32 Like, I really did. Th- there's a list of things-

Chris Williamson 55:35 Really sent it.

Mike Thurston 55:35 ... I really did a lot of things I wanted to do. And I think once you've done them, you realize that the majority of the time, it's not actually as good as you thought it would be. You do it and you're like, "Uh, you know, it was good, but it was a little bit of a l- it was a bit of a letdown."

Chris Williamson 55:48 Hmm.

Mike Thurston 55:48 "Like, I thought it was gonna be better." And once you've kind of checked off more things on the list, you know, you just get, like, more and more motivated to actually just do- do some work and be of use.

Chris Williamson 56:04 Yeah. Yeah, there- there's definitely, like, uh, a bit of fuckery that goes on when you're a kid and you're- you're happy to just bounce around-

Mike Thurston 56:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:11 ... and have fun. But then as you grow up, you realize, "Okay, well, my time's actually fucking limited."

Mike Thurston 56:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:16 Like, "So what am I here to do? Am I here to work and not leave anything on the table or am I here to find time to..." This is still, dude, I mean, it must be the most common theme of questions that I've probably asked anybody this year, and it- it's maybe, um, telling given, like, how this year has gone. How can you balance being enough whilst wanting to be more?

Mike Thurston 56:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:43 Like, feeling comfortable and content and your mind is where your feet are in the moment, and being able to take pleasure in the things that you do and the successes that you have, whilst also knowing that you don't want to leave anything on the table and you want to try and maximize your time here, your brief period of 80 years on this planet. And it's still, you know, Sam Harris had this really beautiful idea about the balance of being and becoming that was really lovely. But tactically, I have to say I'm s- I'm struggling to still really, really get that balance-

Mike Thurston 57:13 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:14 ... nailed. Because so much of what you do when you want to become better, I want to become bigger, I want to become leaner, I want to become richer, I want to move to a better house, I want to move to a better neighborhood, I want to be smarter, I want to be more articulate, whatever. All of those things, as soon as you posit that ideal, you then start to compare yourself to that ideal and you find yourself lacking.

Mike Thurston 57:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:30 And in that lack is dissatisfaction that rips you out of the present moment. But the only reason that you're doing that is presumably so that when you get there, you're like, "Ah, now I can be in the present moment."

Mike Thurston 57:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:40 But each goal that you hit just pushes another goal. You say, "Oh well," like, "yeah, I mean I've done the 21st episode, so like now it's, I've, it's gotta be 50," right?

Mike Thurston 57:47 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 57:47 "Like, 50 is the next goal, or 100 is the next goal, or it's a million, blah bah blah bah blah bah." Like there's always just another thing.

Mike Thurston 57:53 Yeah. I- I think it's really important to celebrate the wins, like to go out and like... If you do hit a particular milestone, just go out and celebrate it. And then, yeah, come back and then set a new goal. I think it's th- The most difficult thing I've had now, particularly when I go through phases where I'm super motivated and I want to grow, it's like the friendship aspect and the relationship aspect takes a hit.

Chris Williamson 58:18 Mm.

Mike Thurston 58:18 Like if you're trying to go full steam ahead with your business and your, all these opportunities you have in front of you... I've noticed when I've been in a relationship, any spare time that I have, I have to devote that to my partner. Which then means I have to fuck my friends off.

Chris Williamson 58:34 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 58:35 Whereas if, let's say for example, I was single, then that gives me an opportunity to spend more time with my friends. Like, to try and juggle everything is really difficult.

Chris Williamson 58:46 I think Ryan Holiday's got, uh, scene, business, family. Pick two. You can be a part of the scene, you can be successful in business, you can be a great part of your family, but it's really, really, really rough to do all three. Uh, who'd I say that seems to have got it all? I don't know much about Joe's, uh, family life-

Mike Thurston 59:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:04 ... uh, although it seems he- he- he seems to have got that pretty dialed. Um-

Mike Thurston 59:08 Joe Rogan.

Chris Williamson 59:08 Yeah. Yeah.

Mike Thurston 59:09 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:10 Um, he- he seems to have certainly got two of them, two of them sorted.

Mike Thurston 59:14 I- Imagine, us, like we're in a situ- situation now where we don't even have kids and we're already fucking complaining.

Chris Williamson 59:19 Mental. Mental.

Mike Thurston 59:20 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 59:20 Mental, mental, mental. But yeah, I um, I know what you mean. Oliver Burkeman has this other idea about, uh, choose in advance what you're going to suck at, which is pretty cool. So for a period of time you're going to work on your business and you're gonna grow your net worth, or you're gonna try and double the revenue of your business, or you're gonna try and get a raise or get a promotion or do whatever. That period of life, just as important as what you're going to do-

Mike Thurston 59:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 59:46 ... is what are you prepared to sacrifice for it. Because, you know, if you need to stay late in the office three nights a week for the next six months so that your boss sees the work that you're doing or so that you get more sales in or so that you what- do whatever it is that you need to do, your training's probably gonna take a hit.

Mike Thurston 1:00:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:02 And when you start to see your condition or your fitness depreciate over time, if you're a type A go-getter you can feel uncomfortable and say, "Oh well, uh, I, that shouldn't be happening." And then you take your eye off the ball of the thing that was supposed to be your thing for the next six months, and then go, "Oh, I'll- I'll only stay late in the office one night a week and I'll get, I'll fit training, I'll slot training in-

Mike Thurston 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:26 ... two more nights." You go, "Well, that wasn't the plan."

Mike Thurston 1:00:28 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:28 The plan was put everything into this one thing, level myself up, and then play catch up with everything else to bring myself back up to baseline. Um, so yeah, choose in advance what you want to suck at, uh, is like a really, really good tactic, 'cause it helps you when other things start to slip.

Mike Thurston 1:00:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:00:45 It stops it feeling like, uh, an error or- or, um, a curse of some kind, and actually is like, "Oh, this is part of the plan."

Mike Thurston 1:00:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:55 "This, this, this was actually part of the plan. Part of the plan was..."I wouldn't get to see my friends as much, or my sleep would suffer, or my fitness would suffer, or my business would suffer 'cause we've just had a kid or whatever. Like, I think that's important.

Mike Thurston 1:01:07 And, and that thing that sucks at the moment, it's not gonna suck later on.

Chris Williamson 1:01:10 Precisely.

Mike Thurston 1:01:10 Like, you can easily flip it around.

Chris Williamson 1:01:11 Switch out the suck.

Mike Thurston 1:01:12 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:13 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:01:14 So I think like, especially right now, for the next couple of years, next five years, I wanna go all in on just, "Okay, let's try and build a, a, a solid business, businesses, whatever it might be, make myself extremely financially comfortable." So that later on, you know, when I get to my late 30s, 40s, when it's time to, you know, really raise a family, I'm in a very comfortable situation where I can do that, and then devote more of my time to raising my kids and being there for my partner.

Chris Williamson 1:01:41 That's the-

Mike Thurston 1:01:42 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:01:42 That's the plan that I, I think I've got as well, that one of my friends, David Perell, told me most of my 20s was spent making myself into the dad that my future kids deserve. And I really like that idea-

Mike Thurston 1:01:56 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:01:56 ... that you're putting a lot of work in now, which is gratifying in the moment. It would be like-

Mike Thurston 1:01:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:00 ... way, way too full of myself to be like, "And all of this is for the sacrifice for my future kids." Like, no, it's not. Like, I get, I take loads of pleasure from the things that I do.

Mike Thurston 1:02:08 Matt, Matt Does Fitness, does a great job of raising his kids.

Chris Williamson 1:02:11 Does he?

Mike Thurston 1:02:12 He's a very good role model for being a father. Like, he's just-

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 Chad to dad pipeline.

Mike Thurston 1:02:15 Yeah. He's just, he's, he, he's in a position where he doesn't have to go to work. He's even built like a home gym at home so he can just spend more time with his family. And like you can just-

Chris Williamson 1:02:25 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:02:25 You can see how well he's raised his two boys. Like, whenever you're around them, they're just like the happiest, most positive, like, they're even comfortable in front of the camera. They're already like really skilled at like (laughs) loads of random different things-

Chris Williamson 1:02:38 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 1:02:38 ... because Matt has been there all the time to-

Chris Williamson 1:02:41 Wow.

Mike Thurston 1:02:41 ... teach them, educate them, and push them.

Chris Williamson 1:02:43 But you've got to have that. Y- y- i- it's interesting what you say. I think I always... About the finance thing, I think I always kind of steered clear of commenting on finances, largely because I came from such a fucking working class background that money was just-

Mike Thurston 1:02:55 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 ... never a consideration. And it, it, it wasn't really that much of a discussion always.

Mike Thurston 1:03:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:01 Um, so I kind of steered clear of talking about it. But, you know, Tate mentioned it too, that until you're financially liberated, you're kind of at the mercy of a lot of things.

Mike Thurston 1:03:10 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:10 And financially liberated doesn't mean like compound in Romania. It just means more money than you need to be able to live-

Mike Thurston 1:03:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:03:17 ... and not having to compensate by working an insane number of hours that ruins the rest of your life outside of it.

Mike Thurston 1:03:24 You have so much more freedom.

Chris Williamson 1:03:26 Yeah. It is im- it de- uh, I mean, and it's-

Mike Thurston 1:03:28 S- it's funny now, as, as you, as obviously the podcast has grown, you have more staff to take care of. Like, you've got salaries to pay for now. You've got studios to pay for.

Chris Williamson 1:03:39 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:03:39 It's not that you need to earn more money so you can live a better life. It's, "No, I need to also earn more money so I can take the quality of my production to the next level, and ensure-"

Chris Williamson 1:03:51 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:03:51 "... that I can keep giving you guys the best, so that I can fly to the other side of the planet to try and do this fucking thing."

Chris Williamson 1:03:56 (laughs)

Mike Thurston 1:03:56 "To go and speak to this guy."

Chris Williamson 1:03:57 Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's an interesting one, man. I, um, I don't know. It's, it's like a... It's been very, a very interesting year, like quite a disquieting year in some ways, like so satisfying, but also just rapid changes in status. This is one of the things about like, a kid like Sam, who even more than either of us in terms of the rapidity of his change of status, people say that they want, you know, fame, and, and accolade, and, and wealth, but just having it thrown at you-

Mike Thurston 1:04:25 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:04:25 ... is fucking terrifying. Yeah, I had this idea,

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 um, that I learned from Jimmy Carr. Trajectory is way more important than position. If you're number two in the world but last year you were number one, that is way worse than sitting at number 150 but being on a huge upward slope from number 300 12 months ago.

Mike Thurston 1:04:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:04:43 There's a few reasons for this. Recency bias. If your value is increasing now, that means that you have to be popular at the moment. By looking at recent trajectory, you're selecting for only the people who are trendy right now, which really is all that we can remember. We can also romanticize where someone will be in future if they're currently hot shit. How high might they go? Who knows? Maybe to the top, may- even, maybe even beyond the top. Humans struggle to realize that everything is temporary, including growth and decline. Instead, it's easy to label people as heroes and losers based on what we know of them right now so we don't have to predict a messy future. There's an old saying that there's three types of people on the ladder, one at the bottom, one at the middle, and one at the top. Which one is the best to be? The one that's still climbing.

Mike Thurston 1:05:21 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:05:22 This doesn't just work for status, but possessions, achievements, wealth, sex, and everything else. It's not just how we see other people, it's also how we see ourselves. We know when we're moving up or down, when life is getting better or worse. Andrew Tate said, "Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun."

Mike Thurston 1:05:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 Another way to look at this is, any accomplishment is just a new higher bar for you to get over in future. I see this in my own work. Let's say that we do a new episode that hits a million plays in a day. Amazing, that's very exciting and a new record. Wow. Also, that means that every video in future-

Mike Thurston 1:05:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:05:52 ... is now going to feel unimpressive unless it does 1.1 million views or higher in 24 hours. In this way, rapid increases in status are more a curse than a blessing.

Mike Thurston 1:06:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:06:02 So here's a theory which I co-signed with Dan Bilzerian like a few weekends ago, so you know it's legit. Even though we might want our goals and accomplishments to arrive immediately, maybe a strat- a smarter strategy is to stretch out the achievements of our dreams. We shouldn't wish for overnight success, as we would then need to be able to beat it pretty soon, lest we feel like we're declining. Instead, slow, consistent progress is a more reliable way to maintain satisfaction. Purposefully aiming for slow success strategy may actually ensure you always feel like you're going in the right direction.

Mike Thurston 1:06:32 Yeah. 100%. It's almost like when you, if you were to win the lottery, like if you were to be given 100 mil versus actually working your ass off, over time-

Chris Williamson 1:06:44 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 1:06:44 ... your salary or however much money you're earning gradually increases, and then you get to that point where, "Okay, now I've got 100 mil." Which one is more satisfying?

Chris Williamson 1:06:52 It's a curse. That would, I think you would look back on it as almost certainly the best and worst day of your life at the same time.

Mike Thurston 1:06:59 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:07:00 You got gifted a-... unbelievable amount of money or an unbelievable amount of status or whatever, how are you ever gonna have a better day than that day?

Mike Thurston 1:07:07 I always thought that, "Oh, God it'd be so cool if I won the lottery." But it would, uh, it would literally fuck me up, in the worst way.

Chris Williamson 1:07:14 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:07:15 I would hate that.

Chris Williamson 1:07:17 Yeah, it's weird man. It's weird the way that we play with status. And, um, what's the energy that you're trying to prioritize in your life at the moment? Like, what is it ... What sort of people do you want around you? What sort of vibe are you trying to prioritize?

Mike Thurston 1:07:31 I think, um, people who are going to help inspire me. I think that's what ... I struggle with sometimes on a day-to-day ba- basis with being motivated, especially when you, when you've got to the point where you've got everything you really need. Like, look, I'm in this ... I have a nice car, I have a nice apartment, I've got great friends. Like, I mean, what more do I really need in my life? When I spend more time with people who are ahead of me financially, business-wise, whatever it might be, even just being around them gives me a, I don't know, it ... I guess I'm kind of a little bit competitive as well. Like, it makes me want to be ... And I, and I wanna get to that level.

Chris Williamson 1:08:13 It fuels the fire a bit.

Mike Thurston 1:08:13 Yeah. So it makes me think, "Okay, there's, there's levels to achieve with this." Um, I'm certainly past the days where I was interested in like the partying and doing that kind of thing. I think when we last spoke, it was already getting to that point. But even now, I c- I compare what, what my desires were at the start of this year, compared to what my desires are now-

Chris Williamson 1:08:35 Mm-hmm.

Mike Thurston 1:08:35 ... and they've definitely changed for the better.

Chris Williamson 1:08:37 What do you think's caused that to happen?

Mike Thurston 1:08:42 Um, I think just coming to the realization of what is, like, really important, um, knowing that a lot of things which I've wanted to do, I've done. And I think I'd, I'd put myself in a few situations this summer where I had been at, like, parties. Obviously I went to Ibiza a couple of times, doing the usual debauchery and then, um, just thinking, "Fuck, I don't ... (laughs) Well, this is ... I don't like doing this anymore."

Chris Williamson 1:09:05 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:09:06 "I really don't like it." I don't get as much enjoyment from it, but I hate the way it makes me feel.

Chris Williamson 1:09:11 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:09:11 I think with what I'm doing now, you know, especially with what we do, doing the podcast, being on YouTube, I have to be on it, like, all the time and actually really enjoy this elevated state which I'm at. Like, there isn't ... No alcohol, there's nothing which is slowing me down. So if you do go out and you drink or you do anything negative for your, for your health or your mindset, just waking up and feeling groggy and shit is like-

Chris Williamson 1:09:39 Yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:09:39 It's horrible. I want to wake up every day feeling as good as I can possibly feel.

Chris Williamson 1:09:44 Dial.

Mike Thurston 1:09:44 And you know when, you know when you have a really good sleep, and you wake up and you're like, "Oh my God, that was a good sleep."

Chris Williamson 1:09:49 This is what it's like to be human. Yeah, yeah.

Mike Thurston 1:09:49 And you feel like you've taken a friggin' limitless pill. That, I want that every day.

Chris Williamson 1:09:54 Yeah. That's, um ... I, I know Iman Gadzhi's a big fan of Monk Mode-

Mike Thurston 1:10:00 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:10:00 But it's one