How Social Media Fuels Our Insecurities - Mike Thurston

1. 0:00 – 5:39

   The Rise of Male Body Dysmorphia

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      Male body dysmorphia-

   2. MTMike Thurston0:01

      Hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:01

      ... is on track to overtake female body dysmorphia within the next few decades. Does that surprise you?

   4. MTMike Thurston0:08

      No, I think it's always been a thing. But especially now, with how big social media is and how jacked so many people are, uh, I think of course it's a, it's a big problem. But did you know there's a guy who's really good at calling people out for editing their photos?

   5. CWChris Williamson0:23

      No. Who? Who?

   6. MTMike Thurston0:23

      You've seen that guy. This, oh God, I don't know his name, but he's got quite a big social media following. And basically anybody who has Photoshopped their photo or videos-

   7. CWChris Williamson0:32

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MTMike Thurston0:33

      ... he gets them.

   9. CWChris Williamson0:34

      Oh, wow.

   10. MTMike Thurston0:34

       So he's doing a good job. He's making sure that people are being truthful with the things that they're posting. But that makes you think how many people are editing. Even people who are literally jacked and shredded-

   11. CWChris Williamson0:46

       Yeah.

   12. MTMike Thurston0:46

       ... they are still-

   13. CWChris Williamson0:47

       Pushing it even further.

   14. MTMike Thurston0:48

       ... editing their photos further to bring in their waist, bring out the lats. And just, it's crazy. So especially with women as well, imagine how bad that is for the average person who is comparing themselves to all these people.

   15. CWChris Williamson1:01

       Hmm.

   16. MTMike Thurston1:02

       And a lot of those people are actually s- still editing their photos to look even more unattainable.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:06

       You've gone, yeah, they've peaked. They've just trained, they've got a pump, they're in good lighting. They've got a good photographer, a good camera, good lens. They've got a tan, blah, blah, blah. And then on top of that, they're editing their photos as well.

   18. MTMike Thurston1:17

       Hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:18

       Yeah. It- it's, you know.

   20. MTMike Thurston1:19

       I think that, th- that's, it's one thing that messed me up a little bit when I competed. So I competed twice. And obviously when you compete, that really is the best that you are going to look-

   21. CWChris Williamson1:31

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MTMike Thurston1:31

       ... probably in your life. Especially for me, in terms of how low I got in my body fat percentage. So when I would look in the mirror, particularly after the show, when it was like more memorable, I'd be, "Oh, I'm pretty fat."

   23. CWChris Williamson1:45

       Because you had yourself as a previous icon.

   24. MTMike Thurston1:46

       Because I was comparing myself to the sub 10% body fat person that I was looking in the mirror. Which is like, it's-

   25. CWChris Williamson1:53

       Well, that says it all. That not only can you have other people out there in the world, the guys and girls that make them feel uncomfortable about their body, or they're taller, or more jacked, or more whatever. But you can also be that for you too.

   26. MTMike Thurston2:08

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson2:09

       You know? This is, I wanted to talk about this. Like, you know, you're 34?

   28. MTMike Thurston2:12

       33.

   29. CWChris Williamson2:13

       33? I'm 35. And we're getting to the stage where we're like, "Right, okay." You know, recovery from workouts takes a little bit longer.

   30. MTMike Thurston2:21

       Mm-hmm.
2. 5:39 – 12:45

   Relationship With Social Media

   1. MTMike Thurston5:39

   2. CWChris Williamson5:39

      Yeah. What's your relationship like with social media now?

   3. MTMike Thurston5:43

      Oh. I think I would love to not have to be on it so much. But I know it's something which I need to be doing regularly more than ever. Like you, especially with what we do in today's day and age, you have to be everywhere. Um, even to this day, I don't like how I still get sucked into it every single time in terms of the, the doom scrolling.

   4. CWChris Williamson6:07

      Mm-hmm.

   5. MTMike Thurston6:07

      I go on there to do a task.... then I get distracted by something, and then I'm scrolling. Then I-

   6. CWChris Williamson6:13

      Still haven't done the math.

   7. MTMike Thurston6:14

      (laughs) And I'm like, "Oh, 15 minutes? Fucking hell." I'm like, "Hang on, I didn't-

   8. CWChris Williamson6:18

      I didn't do the thing. (laughs)

   9. MTMike Thurston6:18

      ... do the thing I was supposed to do." So you have to go back onto it again.

   10. CWChris Williamson6:20

       (laughs)

   11. MTMike Thurston6:20

       So I think, um, yeah, from that point of view, how, I hate how good it is at just sucking you in and rewarding you-

   12. CWChris Williamson6:28

       Yeah.

   13. MTMike Thurston6:28

       ... for just getting, like, a notification or whatever. Um, in terms of, like, YouTube and stuff, I'm, I'm, I'm quite selective with what I consume. Like, uh, when I go onto YouTube, I like to watch things which I'm going to no doubt get educated by. I like to watch a lot of podcasts, anything which I'm gonna learn something by. Instagram as well, it's, it's, it's a bit of a mess. I have a t- I like now to employ as many people as possible to just run the platforms-

   14. CWChris Williamson6:56

       Be the buffer.

   15. MTMike Thurston6:56

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson6:57

       Yeah.

   17. MTMike Thurston6:57

       So that I don't have to go onto it. I still... Actually, it's a recent thing, I don't look at comments anymore.

   18. CWChris Williamson7:03

       Okay.

   19. MTMike Thurston7:04

       That used to still mess with your head. I think particularly, like, with the, the gym-related videos, I would do a gym workout or try and do an educational video talking about, like, uh, how to do this exercise or whatever. And then the comment section's all steroids, steroids, steroids, steroids, steroids. "Why are you lying to us?

   20. CWChris Williamson7:21

       (laughs)

   21. MTMike Thurston7:21

       Fake natty." And it's just like, "I'm, I'm trying to help people, yet the c- the whole conversation is about whether or not I'm natural."

   22. CWChris Williamson7:29

       Hm.

   23. MTMike Thurston7:29

       And it used to annoy me so much that I actually pivoted away from making gym videos 'cause it was so annoying that I just-

   24. CWChris Williamson7:34

       Because no one's talking about your supposed steroid use in a lifestyle vlog in Marbella?

   25. MTMike Thurston7:39

       Yeah. So, like, the, the less gym-related stuff in it-

   26. CWChris Williamson7:42

       Yeah.

   27. MTMike Thurston7:43

       ... the, there's kind of less, uh, negativity.

   28. CWChris Williamson7:45

       Dude, I mean, that's, that's something that's really true, that the audience gets to influence the direction of the creator in a lot of ways. And if they make them feel very uncomfortable about whatever it is that they're doing-

   29. MTMike Thurston7:59

       Mm-hmm. That's wh-

   30. CWChris Williamson7:59

       ... they're gonna start to lean away from that type of content.
3. 12:45 – 19:45

   What Motivated Mike’s Decision to Train?

   1. CWChris Williamson12:45

      stuff. One of the things I was interested in, one of the reasons I asked about the male body dysmorphia thing and- and your relationship with social media. I don't think I've asked you this. What drove you in the first place to dedicate so much time to going to the gym and building a business and- and doing stuff like that? Because it's been a very, very long road.

   2. MTMike Thurston13:04

      Hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson13:04

      Significantly more consistent than most people are. And now it might be habit, but what was it originally?

   4. MTMike Thurston13:10

      I think originally on the back end of when Facebook was at its peak and then when Instagram started, I think I just liked being able to showcase all the hard work that I had put in with the gym. I was like, oh, like, this is an opportunity to show the world, like, this is what I've achieved.

   5. CWChris Williamson13:27

      But what about before that? What about when you started training? Like, why did you start training?

   6. MTMike Thurston13:32

      Oh, right. So (sighs) I think it was probably a combination of a few different things, 'cause I was playing rugby for a solid nine years. And I enjoyed it, but I think near the end of last few years of playing rugby, like it's, maybe I didn't like the idea of being in a team. And I- I've- I've became very frustrated sometimes when I wanted to do something, like I wanted to switch this game around, but I had to rely on the other 14 players to sort their shit out, that I felt like a lot of time I was out of control. Sort of, I liked the way that the gym thing was a very individual thing. It was like, it was y- just about you, you're in complete control. Um, I remember the first time when I- I- I- I remember just walking into this- the gym at the school that I went to, I think I was probably 17 years old. And nobody was there, wasn't really a thing. There was no, I had no idea what I was doing, but I- I put, like, my favorite music on the speakers and just started, like, just using a few of the machines. And I was just super happy doing it. And then I remember looking in the mirror and saw a little bit of a pump, and I was like, "Fucking hell, like, I look good." So it was the- the instant reward that you would get from going to the gym, which made me almost want more of it. And then I think I always wanted to just be a- a bigger guy. Like, I remember this one point when I was on, um... I don't know if I was 15 or 16, ended up getting mugged on a bus. So I was- I was on a bus.

   7. CWChris Williamson14:57

      Where were you from, Leeds?

   8. MTMike Thurston14:58

      Leeds, yeah. Double-decker bus. And, yeah, these two guys came on and basically just started fucking with me, and then wanted to take my money. And I felt completely useless. I couldn't do anything about it. I was like a little skinny kid back then. So I was shook by the whole experience, and I felt, like, completely unprepared for any kind of confrontation, um, that I thought, "Well, I need t- I need to put on some size." Like, I know maybe I should learn how to fight, but the easiest thing for me to do right now is just to look like the type of guy that you probably wouldn't want to get in a fight with. But it's been, I think it's been pretty good, the fact that I've been able to put on size. I don't, I'm not the type of person that people come up to and want to start a fight with (laughs) , which is good, most of the time, which is good.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:44

      You can-

   10. MTMike Thurston15:44

       I- I- I never go looking for trouble.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:46

       You can't overshoot that. There's definitely a size that you get to where people want to just-

   12. MTMike Thurston15:49

       Yeah, people are like, "I want to fucking drop this guy." (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson15:51

       Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. You're in the, you're in this Goldilocks zone in the middle.

   14. MTMike Thurston15:53

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:54

       Yeah, I think, um... It's so nice to hear that, to hear... And it was the same for me. Like, I was, you know, skinny kid, picked on sometimes in school for not being as- as, like, big as everybody else or whatever. And I didn't want to be like that.

   16. MTMike Thurston16:07

       Hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson16:07

       I wanted, I wanted to feel like I had more physical formidability.

   18. MTMike Thurston16:13

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:14

       And, um...

   20. MTMike Thurston16:15

       I don't, I don't know if it had something to do with me. I used to be, like, really awkward with girls as well. So I don't know if that had, uh... Maybe my chat was so bad that I thought, "Well-"

   21. CWChris Williamson16:24

       Compensate by bigging up. (laughs)

   22. MTMike Thurston16:24

       "... to cap, to compensate for this horrendous chat that I have, at least I can look good, and then I don't have to do as much work." (laughs)

   23. CWChris Williamson16:32

       Mm-hmm. My social anxiety doesn't matter as much.

   24. MTMike Thurston16:34

       Yeah. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson16:35

       But- But even with that, man, like, all of these things are the pure, beautiful reasons why guys start going to the gym.

   26. MTMike Thurston16:43

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson16:44

       And a good chunk of that, I think, has been lost in talk about body dysmorphia and comparison and- and, you know, uh, unrealistic male body image standards and stuff like that. But so much of it is just, "I want to feel more like a man-"

   28. MTMike Thurston17:00

       Mm-hmm.

   29. CWChris Williamson17:00

       "... when I've still got kind of the body of a boy."

   30. MTMike Thurston17:03

       Mm-hmm.
4. 19:45 – 30:12

   Where Confidence Should Come From

   1. CWChris Williamson19:45

      that sort of journey taught you about where confidence comes from? Because it has to come from something more than-

   2. MTMike Thurston19:51

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson19:51

      ... simply the way that you look.

   4. MTMike Thurston19:53

      Yeah. I learned that. I think it, it's, it's many different areas of life. I don't think I was fully... I was fully content and comfortable with the person that I was probably at the age of 20, 27, 28. I just feel like at that point in time, I was like, "Okay, yeah. My, my shit is sorted now." I think a lot of it came from being financially comfortable as well.

   5. CWChris Williamson20:17

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MTMike Thurston20:17

      I feel like it's quite hard to be com- to be comfortable, or not, not comfortable sort of, confident when you have no money in your account. Like, you-

   7. CWChris Williamson20:26

      That'd be difficult.

   8. MTMike Thurston20:26

      ... you could, you could look the part, you could be, you know, great with women or great at talking. But let's say, for example, if I was in a room full of very successful entrepreneurs that had a lot of money, I would feel the absolute opposite of confident. I'd be like, "Wow, I really have nothing to offer in this situation right now." So the moment I got my finances sorted, I was happy with my physique, the way I looked, the lessons which I had learned from previous relationships and just from previous work experiences.

   9. CWChris Williamson20:59

      What about the, uh, social confidence or the confidence with women as well though?

   10. MTMike Thurston21:05

       I think that came from just experience o- of having lots of different relationships, because I just... Like now, i- if or in the past few years when I'd been dating someone the first time I'd go on a first date, it's just like, "Oh, here we go again." Like you just know, you know what to do, you know what to say, and everything is, is good. But I, I think as well this, being on YouTube has helped massively. So I have drastically improved my ability to speak in front of the camera, speak in front of like lots of different people to be able to have a conversation with someone, to be able to entertain the audience that's watching you. That has massively helped with my social interactions. 'Cause most of the time, well, I'm more introverted, like if you look at the introverted-extroverted scale, I'm more on th- in the introverted side. I think to be before the days of YouTube, I was a lot more introverted. Like I had my, my group of friends and my social circle, but you'd never see me come out of my shell unless I was with my closest friends. And even then, if I was in a situation with like a lot of people, I'd be the quiet guy not really saying anything, I would just listen. So the, the whole journey through the social media, the YouTube, has helped me to come out of my shell, and I'm a lot more, you know, confident now, I have a lot more to say. But there's still that introverted aspect to me where, let's say for example, you've had a day full of socializing, talking, whatever, I come back home and I'm like-

   11. CWChris Williamson22:31

       Dead.

   12. MTMike Thurston22:32

       And I need to be alone just to recharge. So it's, uh, yeah. I think... I always ask myself this, and I want to ask you this as well. If there's one thing that you could change about yourself, what would it be?

   13. CWChris Williamson22:43

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MTMike Thurston22:43

       Because for me, I think I would like t- if I could be more extroverted, I feel like I would be able to go further with my career and everything that I'm doing, because I would just naturally want to be meeting everyone, going to events, chatting to everyone, like just entertaining everyone. But to me that's like, it's, it, it takes a lot of work-

   15. CWChris Williamson23:02

       It's effortful.

   16. MTMike Thurston23:03

       ... for me to do that. And even before, sometimes before there's an event, I have to psych myself up to go, 'cause I just want to stay at home and just do my thing-

   17. CWChris Williamson23:12

       Yeah.

   18. MTMike Thurston23:13

       ... and be alone sometimes. But I'm like, "I need to go to this thing," so I have to, you know, get myself prepared.

   19. CWChris Williamson23:18

       Mm-hmm.

   20. MTMike Thurston23:18

       And then I go and I do it, and I'm actually really happy after it's done because I went and did something I didn't want to do, and it ended up actually being like really good.

   21. CWChris Williamson23:25

       It was a big hill to get over before you do-

   22. MTMike Thurston23:26

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson23:26

       ... it though. Yeah, I mean, that would certainly be a big... It'd be a huge change for me if I did that. It does, um... Even though standing out the front of 1,000 club nights and meeting a million people, right-

   24. MTMike Thurston23:38

       Mm-hmm.

   25. CWChris Williamson23:38

       ... across a 15-year career, that... It didn't feel like socializing. I wasn't properly invested in all of these people. It was just like-

   26. MTMike Thurston23:48

       It's a lot of small talk.

   27. CWChris Williamson23:49

       Yeah, yeah. Bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. Which was good, um-

   28. MTMike Thurston23:52

       With drunk people.

   29. CWChris Williamson23:53

       With very drunk people.

   30. MTMike Thurston23:55

       (laughs)
5. 30:12 – 38:09

   Chris’s First Live Tour

   1. MTMike Thurston30:12

      was it like the first time doing the show? Like, the very first show?

   2. CWChris Williamson30:15

      Live show?

   3. MTMike Thurston30:15

      Y- yeah. Were you shitting yourself?

   4. CWChris Williamson30:17

      That was n- nerve-wracking. Yeah.

   5. MTMike Thurston30:19

      'Cause for me, yeah, the, the thought of that is (laughs) pretty fucking scary.

   6. CWChris Williamson30:25

      Mm-hmm.

   7. MTMike Thurston30:26

      I think as well, it's...Q&A's fine.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:30

      Oh, okay.

   9. MTMike Thurston30:30

      But to- to go up there by yourself and to talk for an hour or more about something, like first I was thinking like, "What the hell would I even talk about? Like, what would- would people even want to know?"

   10. CWChris Williamson30:40

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MTMike Thurston30:42

       Like I- I- I guess I would have to sit down and think about it.

   12. CWChris Williamson30:45

       Yeah.

   13. MTMike Thurston30:45

       I'm sure that there is an audience out there that wanna hear me talk about something.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:48

       Dude, I would- I'd- I'd attend.

   15. MTMike Thurston30:50

       Mm-hmm.

   16. CWChris Williamson30:50

       Um, but yeah, the live shows that I've done, I just did one in Dubai, and now I fly to Edmonton for 20 hours with James tomorrow morning at 2:00 AM.

   17. MTMike Thurston31:00

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson31:00

       Which is gonna fucking suck my soul out of me. (coughs) He's managed to book us one of those things that's like the side by side seats as well.

   19. MTMike Thurston31:10

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:10

       Like the- with the dividing door. I'm just gonna put the door up and not have to speak to him (laughs) for the entire time.

   21. MTMike Thurston31:14

       (laughs) Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson31:15

       But standing on stage, you know, th- this is kind of old trope for people that listen to Rogan and they're always on about you working the material and the crowd energy and the room and the vibe and all this sort of stuff. But it's wild to stand on stage and- and just have, you know, 80 eyes or 1,000 eyes or whatever it was in the Dubai show the other night, like t-

   23. MTMike Thurston31:35

       Yeah, there was a lot of people there.

   24. CWChris Williamson31:37

       ... like 1,000 people there or whatever, like just looking at you. And you can't see the end of the room.

   25. MTMike Thurston31:40

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson31:40

       It's like it's just endless. And then you look at what Schulz has done, he sold out where the Raptors play in Canada or he just did this place in- in Australia where it's so far away that they need screen- repeater screens to be able to see the fucking dude that's just this little dot down on that.

   27. MTMike Thurston31:55

       And he has the pressure of having to say something funny.

   28. CWChris Williamson31:58

       Oh, he's gotta be funny. I mean, that's- that-

   29. MTMike Thurston31:59

       I mean, like nearly every- every 10, 20 seconds he has to say something funny.

   30. CWChris Williamson32:02

       You gotta- you gotta get a laugh. Yeah.
6. 38:09 – 42:21

   Does Everyone Need Therapy?

   1. CWChris Williamson38:09

      I've been doing therapy in, uh, Austin. And this lady's great, this woman that I've been working with.

   2. MTMike Thurston38:14

      Why, why does, why does he need therapy?

   3. CWChris Williamson38:16

      I think that everyone does. I genuinely think that everybody would benefit from just-

   4. MTMike Thurston38:19

      I would love to have, uh, I don't know if it would be therapy or just to speak to an expert on relationships.

   5. CWChris Williamson38:26

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MTMike Thurston38:27

      Because I feel like that is something every day, every year, I'm still learning more about relationships and how do they work? Are you with the right person? Like, what? I'm sure there's a lot of things wrong with me. I don't think I'm an easy person to date.

   7. CWChris Williamson38:40

      Mm-hmm.

   8. MTMike Thurston38:40

      Especially with my, my job, the way I look, social media. It's whoever I'm in a relationship with, they have to be-

   9. CWChris Williamson38:49

      They gotta deal with that.

   10. MTMike Thurston38:50

       Yeah. They gotta deal with the fact that I'll get attention. And you know, probably if I'm with a really hot girl, which I have been in the past, like, they obviously have attention as well, so.

   11. CWChris Williamson38:58

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MTMike Thurston38:58

       But I'm cool with that.

   13. CWChris Williamson38:59

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MTMike Thurston39:00

       It's, um, it's a tricky one. And I think at, like, I- I've always been pretty horrendous at communicating. (laughs) Uh, that's just who I am. Like, I would just, I don't know. It's, I keep, I keep a lot of my feelings to myself and just assume that they know what's going on or that everything's all right. When in reality, you need to have a pretty hard conversation.

   15. CWChris Williamson39:19

       Neil Strauss, the guy that wrote The Game, who is now kind of this super aligned, awakened family man, uh, there's this fucking awesome quote from him that said, "Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments."

   16. MTMike Thurston39:34

       Hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson39:36

       Jesus Christ. Unspoken expectations are premeditated resentments. And you know, when you're talking about that, I, I will maybe keep my feelings to myself, I won't really mention something that's either bugging me or that I wish that I would bring up. But you get the sense that the other person-

   18. MTMike Thurston39:51

       Mm-hmm.

   19. CWChris Williamson39:51

       ... should know or might know or could know or whatever.

   20. MTMike Thurston39:53

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson39:54

       And after a while, you almost end up building a conversation with yourself about the thing that you never said-

   22. MTMike Thurston39:59

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson39:59

       ... to the person who didn't know it. Um, so yeah. I mean, Bill Perkins, that wrote Die With Zero, one of the most dialed systems guys that I know, uh, Ali Abdaal came out to (laughs) he came out fucking wake surfing with us. Ali had a bad day.

   24. MTMike Thurston40:12

       Bet, bet he was good at that. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson40:14

       Dude. Alex O'Connor, cosmic skeptic, came out and stood up first ti- first try. Yousef, my friend, went out e-foiling yesterday over there, stood up within the first session. Ali Abdaal (laughs) , not like... I mean, so just insanely smart. And I think he's got, he's got like... I can't remember what he's good at. He's good at like some physical sport, but like, it wasn't fucking wake surfing. Anyway, he asked Bill Perkins, "What's the number one coach that you've got?" Out of everything, the business coaching, all the rest of it. He was like, "Relationship coach."

   26. MTMike Thurston40:42

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson40:42

       First thing he said, "Relationship coach, most important." They check in. I think both partners work separately and then, uh, they maybe do couples-

   28. MTMike Thurston40:49

       I think after-

   29. CWChris Williamson40:50

       ... sessions together.

   30. MTMike Thurston40:51

       Yeah, to begin with and the honeymoon period is fine. You don't need any help like, it just, it runs itself. But the longer the relationship goes on for, like after a year, after two years, that's when you have to work on it. That's what I've learned.
7. 42:21 – 50:47

   Mike’s Opinion of Sam Sulek

   1. CWChris Williamson42:21

      growth is Sam Sulek.

   2. MTMike Thurston42:23

      Oh God, yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson42:24

      What do you think about Sam Sulek?

   4. MTMike Thurston42:27

      Uh, uh, I'm f- I am, this is, I'm so fascinated how certain people just pop off on social media. Like I'm trying to understand the, like what has the formula been like-I didn't, I didn't know of him before until his basically kind of ... You see the memes first. You're like, "Why is there a meme about this guy?" And then, uh, you go onto the Instagram, you go onto the YouTube, and you just see, like, the following and the consistently high views. And you're like, "Oh, my, what, what is he, what's he doing then?" And you watch it, and it's just, like, pretty normal. There's no fancy edits or anything cinematic. It's just ... I think the reason why it's worked so well is 'cause he's just gone almost in the opposite direction. Inste- in- in- instead of trying too hard with, like, the showing off and the, the musics, the edits, he's just like, "This is just-

   5. CWChris Williamson43:17

      Is there ever-

   6. MTMike Thurston43:17

      ... a normal guy."

   7. CWChris Williamson43:18

      ... any edits? It's just, it's, as, after the-

   8. MTMike Thurston43:20

      No music. He just, like-

   9. CWChris Williamson43:21

      ... like, da, da, da, da, dun, dun, dun, dun. Like, after that first thing, it's just straight to the edit.

   10. MTMike Thurston43:24

       As far as I know, it's just a camera on a tripod, and he's just doing his thing and sharing his thoughts. Which is very simple, but it, it ki- uh, after watching it, it makes sense why it works, 'cause-

   11. CWChris Williamson43:37

       Mm-hmm.

   12. MTMike Thurston43:37

       ... he has some in- a lot of insightful things to say.

   13. CWChris Williamson43:41

       I think, uh, I heard this term the other day, growth hacking authenticity.

   14. MTMike Thurston43:46

       Mm-hmm.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:46

       Um, and I think that everybody now is so skeptical of someone that's contriving, uh, a, a version of themselves. If you see someone that looks like they're trying too hard-

   16. MTMike Thurston44:01

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson44:01

       ... or they're putting on a, a particular ... It's just, there's discomfort and ick and, "Oh, I don't-"

   18. MTMike Thurston44:05

       Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson44:05

       ... "like that." And I think Sam's lack of fancy car or fancy edit or fancy thumbnails or, like, any of that-

   20. MTMike Thurston44:16

       Mm-hmm.

   21. CWChris Williamson44:17

       ... is just a signal of reliability. I think that's what people are-

   22. MTMike Thurston44:20

       I, I think it's very relatable if you think about how many men are in a similar situation to him. I remember when I, when I started a YouTube channel, like, everything was really basic. I was in, you know, not a ver- it was a terraced house in Newcastle. I was doing my meal prep video in a pretty shabby kitchen.

   23. CWChris Williamson44:38

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MTMike Thurston44:38

       My pots and pans were all completely fucked up.

   25. CWChris Williamson44:40

       (laughs)

   26. MTMike Thurston44:40

       Like, there was no lubrication on it. It was just sticking to everything.

   27. CWChris Williamson44:44

       Mm-hmm.

   28. MTMike Thurston44:45

       And I was just doing my meal prep, shopping at Lidl or Aldi, and just taking it to work with me. And people loved that 'cause so many people could relate to it. And I remember the moment I kind of moved away from that, staying in more fancier places, when I upgraded to my apartment in London, and then I left London and came to Dubai. It was, my audience was divided. There was half of them who were, like, really inspired, and they were like, "Wow," like, "Look what he's done. I want to do this as well." And then there was the other half who were just like, "I, I can't really relate to you anymore." Like, "I can't relate to your life."

   29. CWChris Williamson45:15

       Yeah.

   30. MTMike Thurston45:16

       The, the-
8. 50:47 – 1:04:29

   The Price of Increasing Ambition

   1. CWChris Williamson50:47

      enoughness? You know, the- the stress and- and responsibility-

   2. MTMike Thurston50:51

      Oh.

   3. CWChris Williamson50:51

      ... and paranoia that comes along for the ride with wanting more and success and money-

   4. MTMike Thurston50:56

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson50:56

      ... can kind of sap the fun out of it. Do you think about enoughness?

   6. MTMike Thurston50:59

      Yeah. I think, um, it's harder to fall asleep quicker, that's for sure.

   7. CWChris Williamson51:04

      (laughs)

   8. MTMike Thurston51:04

      'Cause when I go to bed, I'm just thinking about all the things that I need to do, should be doing, and haven't done. So that's taken a hit. 'Cause I remember in my 20s I never had a- I- I remember just, I could just fall asleep straight away. Now it's a lot harder. Um, and yeah, I th- I think especially right now, I'm in a position where if I really want to, I can go full steam ahead and really take things to the next level. Like, the- everything is in my favor. I have the team, I have- you know, I'm living here in Dubai, I'm at a point where I ha- I have a following, I have some respect. So let's go fully into this. But then that's gonna come at a price. And I know if- if that's something which I wanna do, you know, if- if you want all the numbers to be increasing, the subscribers increasing, the views, the money, you know, I'm gonna have to say goodbye to a couple of things. And it's- it's gonna be a sacrifice with relationships, it's gonna be a sacrifice to the things which I like to do sometimes. That's like to just wake up and do nothing and do my own thing, just go for a walk, just chill, take life easy. Like, I- I love nothing more than doing that sometimes. Which I had a kind of experience of doing that over the summer, where I wasn't working as much-

   9. CWChris Williamson52:14

      Mm-hmm.

   10. MTMike Thurston52:14

       ... and less productive, really just enjoying life and what I've achieved, the fruits of my labor. But then after a couple of days or weeks of doing that, you just feel like, "Fuck, I'm kind of- I'm wasting my potential here. And things are starting to go in the reverse direction." And I think that was quite a s- a sort of scary experience for me. I had a big break from doing the podcast. And I think I got up to, um ... Was it, was it 20 episodes? You know, I- I- I don't think I got myself into that 1%.

   11. CWChris Williamson52:42

       Yeah.

   12. MTMike Thurston52:42

       I was just shy and I was like-

   13. CWChris Williamson52:43

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   14. MTMike Thurston52:44

       ... "Fuck! I'm- I'm the, I'm the statistic." (laughs)

   15. CWChris Williamson52:45

       Me neither. "I'm the guy. I'm the fucking guy." Yeah.

   16. MTMike Thurston52:47

       I'm that guy that gave up.

   17. CWChris Williamson52:48

       Yeah.

   18. MTMike Thurston52:49

       And I- I noticed when I- when I stopped doing the podcast, um, 'cause I didn't have my team with me. I was in- like, traveling about a bit. I just, I think I just wasn't- for whatever reason, I'd lost the motivation a little bit.

   19. CWChris Williamson52:59

       Hmm.

   20. MTMike Thurston52:59

       But I just felt, um, like I was doing a disservice to my audience. Like, everyone was asking me, it was like, "When's the next episode? When's the next episode?"

   21. CWChris Williamson53:07

       Mm-hmm.

   22. MTMike Thurston53:07

       And I was just like, "I don't know." I just felt like, "What a fucking waste I am." Like, I have this potential and opportunity to create these amazing conversations with amazing people-

   23. CWChris Williamson53:18

       Mm-hmm.

   24. MTMike Thurston53:18

       ... but I'd rather just go to a beach club or I'll go on a date with this girl or just fuck about.

   25. CWChris Williamson53:22

       Well, there's a pressure that comes with that. And yeah, I think about enoughness a good bit. I wanted- I've got another episode with Hormozi coming up, uh, probably within the next few months. And I wanna try and really dig into it because I know that he's 99th percentile of hardworking-

   26. MTMike Thurston53:37

       Mm-hmm.

   27. CWChris Williamson53:37

       ... guy. It's very inspiring to be around.

   28. MTMike Thurston53:40

       (laughs)

   29. CWChris Williamson53:41

       But I wonder how scalable and replicable that is with people who don't have his very particular-

   30. MTMike Thurston53:49

       Hmm.
9. 1:04:29 – 1:13:52

   Trajectory is Better Than Position

   1. CWChris Williamson1:04:29

      um, that I learned from Jimmy Carr. Trajectory is way more important than position. If you're number two in the world but last year you were number one, that is way worse than sitting at number 150 but being on a huge upward slope from number 300 12 months ago.

   2. MTMike Thurston1:04:43

      Mm-hmm.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:04:43

      There's a few reasons for this. Recency bias. If your value is increasing now, that means that you have to be popular at the moment. By looking at recent trajectory, you're selecting for only the people who are trendy right now, which really is all that we can remember. We can also romanticize where someone will be in future if they're currently hot shit. How high might they go? Who knows? Maybe to the top, may- even, maybe even beyond the top. Humans struggle to realize that everything is temporary, including growth and decline. Instead, it's easy to label people as heroes and losers based on what we know of them right now so we don't have to predict a messy future. There's an old saying that there's three types of people on the ladder, one at the bottom, one at the middle, and one at the top. Which one is the best to be? The one that's still climbing.

   4. MTMike Thurston1:05:21

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:05:22

      This doesn't just work for status, but possessions, achievements, wealth, sex, and everything else. It's not just how we see other people, it's also how we see ourselves. We know when we're moving up or down, when life is getting better or worse. Andrew Tate said, "Having things isn't fun. Getting things is fun."

   6. MTMike Thurston1:05:38

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:05:38

      Another way to look at this is, any accomplishment is just a new higher bar for you to get over in future. I see this in my own work. Let's say that we do a new episode that hits a million plays in a day. Amazing, that's very exciting and a new record. Wow. Also, that means that every video in future-

   8. MTMike Thurston1:05:52

      (laughs)

   9. CWChris Williamson1:05:52

      ... is now going to feel unimpressive unless it does 1.1 million views or higher in 24 hours. In this way, rapid increases in status are more a curse than a blessing.

   10. MTMike Thurston1:06:01

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson1:06:02

       So here's a theory which I co-signed with Dan Bilzerian like a few weekends ago, so you know it's legit. Even though we might want our goals and accomplishments to arrive immediately, maybe a strat- a smarter strategy is to stretch out the achievements of our dreams. We shouldn't wish for overnight success, as we would then need to be able to beat it pretty soon, lest we feel like we're declining. Instead, slow, consistent progress is a more reliable way to maintain satisfaction. Purposefully aiming for slow success strategy may actually ensure you always feel like you're going in the right direction.

   12. MTMike Thurston1:06:32

       Yeah. 100%. It's almost like when you, if you were to win the lottery, like if you were to be given 100 mil versus actually working your ass off, over time-

   13. CWChris Williamson1:06:44

       Mm-hmm.

   14. MTMike Thurston1:06:44

       ... your salary or however much money you're earning gradually increases, and then you get to that point where, "Okay, now I've got 100 mil." Which one is more satisfying?

   15. CWChris Williamson1:06:52

       It's a curse. That would, I think you would look back on it as almost certainly the best and worst day of your life at the same time.

   16. MTMike Thurston1:06:59

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson1:07:00

       You got gifted a-... unbelievable amount of money or an unbelievable amount of status or whatever, how are you ever gonna have a better day than that day?

   18. MTMike Thurston1:07:07

       I always thought that, "Oh, God it'd be so cool if I won the lottery." But it would, uh, it would literally fuck me up, in the worst way.

   19. CWChris Williamson1:07:14

       Yeah.

   20. MTMike Thurston1:07:15

       I would hate that.

   21. CWChris Williamson1:07:17

       Yeah, it's weird man. It's weird the way that we play with status. And, um, what's the energy that you're trying to prioritize in your life at the moment? Like, what is it ... What sort of people do you want around you? What sort of vibe are you trying to prioritize?

   22. MTMike Thurston1:07:31

       I think, um, people who are going to help inspire me. I think that's what ... I struggle with sometimes on a day-to-day ba- basis with being motivated, especially when you, when you've got to the point where you've got everything you really need. Like, look, I'm in this ... I have a nice car, I have a nice apartment, I've got great friends. Like, I mean, what more do I really need in my life? When I spend more time with people who are ahead of me financially, business-wise, whatever it might be, even just being around them gives me a, I don't know, it ... I guess I'm kind of a little bit competitive as well. Like, it makes me want to be ... And I, and I wanna get to that level.

   23. CWChris Williamson1:08:13

       It fuels the fire a bit.

   24. MTMike Thurston1:08:13

       Yeah. So it makes me think, "Okay, there's, there's levels to achieve with this." Um, I'm certainly past the days where I was interested in like the partying and doing that kind of thing. I think when we last spoke, it was already getting to that point. But even now, I c- I compare what, what my desires were at the start of this year, compared to what my desires are now-

   25. CWChris Williamson1:08:35

       Mm-hmm.

   26. MTMike Thurston1:08:35

       ... and they've definitely changed for the better.

   27. CWChris Williamson1:08:37

       What do you think's caused that to happen?

   28. MTMike Thurston1:08:42

       Um, I think just coming to the realization of what is, like, really important, um, knowing that a lot of things which I've wanted to do, I've done. And I think I'd, I'd put myself in a few situations this summer where I had been at, like, parties. Obviously I went to Ibiza a couple of times, doing the usual debauchery and then, um, just thinking, "Fuck, I don't ... (laughs) Well, this is ... I don't like doing this anymore."

   29. CWChris Williamson1:09:05

       Yeah.

   30. MTMike Thurston1:09:06

       "I really don't like it." I don't get as much enjoyment from it, but I hate the way it makes me feel.

Episode duration: 1:17:20