Modern WisdomHow The Partner You Choose Reveals Your Self-Worth - Quinlan Walther
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
85 min read · 17,319 words- 0:00 – 2:31
What Your Partner Says About Your Self-Worth
- CWChris Williamson
How much does the partner that someone chooses reveal about their level of self-worth, do you think?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I like this, starting with a strong one. Um, well, I wanna add a little bit of context to that. How does the partner that someone chooses reveal how much they love themselves or how they see themselves? It can tell a lot, but I think more importantly is the way that they feel about someone's judgment of that. So the way that I frame it is, if someone told you that they could tell how much you love yourself by the partner that you've chosen, how would you feel about that? It's kind of like if I say, "Oh, is that a new shirt?" And you're a little insecure about it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
You're like, "What does it make me look? How am I ... Do I look a little heavy?"
- CWChris Williamson
[laughs]
- QWQuinlan Walther
"Do I look a little ... Can my muscles look small," right? You're, like, there's an insecurity there.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Versus, "Thank you, it is a new shirt. Doesn't it look great? You know, this color, the new cut." You're, like, right? You're secure in it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So when someone says, "I can tell how much you love yourself by the partner that you've chosen," there's a bit of intuition in that, in your reaction to that.
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting prompt-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... to give somebody.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
And the sense of, "Ugh," or, "Ah."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes. And I, I always try, I frame it up that way intentionally because it's not about someone actually passing a judgment on you. It's your interpretation of that judgment, right?
- CWChris Williamson
It's like a, it's like a Rorschach test-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... for your own partner.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes. It's like, I am not what I think I am. I am not what you think I am. I am what you think-
- CWChris Williamson
I am what you think I think I am
- QWQuinlan Walther
... I think I am. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. [laughs] We did it.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
We did it. Um-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Ah
- CWChris Williamson
... it's interesting though, right? Like, the, uh, the idea that if you feel like you're being mistreated and you believe that the love that you are prepared to accept is a reflection of your level of self-worth-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... that probably tells you everything that you need to know about your relationship.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes. Well, it's does it feel like a compliment or does it feel like an insult? Does it make you proud-
- 2:31 – 5:18
Where Does Self-Trust Come From?
- CWChris Williamson
Where does self-trust come from?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Self-trust. Self-trust will be my greatest obsession for the foreseeable future. Um, self-trust is essentially building a relationship with yourself that allows you to know who you are, like who you are, and build a life that actually feels like yours. That's like clear, summarize it, so that's the brief synopsis. Self-trust to me is ultimately what you have to build in order to find fulfillment, sustainable fulfillment in this life. The way that I see it, the majority of our issues, um, emotional anyway, issues come from uncertainty. What's going to happen to me? What are people going to think of me? What am I going to think of myself? What happens if this uncontrollable thing plays out? How am I gonna handle it? But more importantly, how am I going to feel if this person breaks up with me, if I don't get this job, if someone that I love dies? If the ... right? Most of it is how am I gonna feel on the other end of that? And there's no way to outrun that uncertainty. There's no means of control or no ability, no strategy that was going to apply to all of those situations except for trusting that you will be there in an, in every single one of those situations.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
You'll be, you'll be on the other end of that supporting yourself. The way that I kind of break it down, there's four C's of self-trust. Number one is curiosity. So do you know what you're feeling? Do you know why you're feeling that way? Do you know what you want in this situation, in the next situation, in life in general? Um, do you know what you don't want? How well do you ... How much space do you give yourself to really ask yourself the hard questions or the fun questions and learn the answers? The next one is capacity. So how good are you at being emotionally flexible? When discomfort arises, do you trust yourself to stay in the disappointment, in the sadness, to support yourself through that? When things go really well, do you trust yourself to not totally self-sabotage and fuck it all up, screw it all up? Um, [laughs] and then you're looking at compassion. That's the fourth one. So do you have, uh, compassion for your own, not, not just yourself, but also an understanding of, um, your intentions? Like, do you trust your heart? Do you have compassion that you're well-intentioned and that still means you're gonna screw up sometimes?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Right? Can you recognize your own humanity? And then the last one, C, uh, last C is commitment, which is do I know the kind of life that I want to build? Do I know the kind of person that I want to be? And am I committed, devoted to bringing that to fruition? Am I committed to this life? Because that's what's gonna move you forward through all of that. So in short, that's [laughs] what self-trust is.
- 5:18 – 8:53
Why Curiosity and Capacity Feel So Difficult
- CWChris Williamson
Which one do people struggle with the most?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm. Either capacity or curiosity.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think we like to pretend that we're curious, especially in today's day and age. I have a label for everything. I'll just find the label. I'll explain it all away. Give me the diagnosis and I can stick a Band-Aid on it and we can just keep pushing. You sell yourself short when you do that. You sell yourself short when you don't take the time to maybe question the label or look underneath the label. What's, what are you really feeling? What are you experiencing? What makes up this pattern that you don't like? Um, are you Picking shitty partners because you have daddy issues, slap the label on it and do away with it. "Well, I've explained it. I'm done with the curiosity. What do you m- I, move on to the next one," rather than there's an association that I have where love is supposed to feel like abandonment.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
There's this association that I have that love is supposed to hurt, so s- I'm supposed to expect these, like, high highs and then these super low lows. That's the real problem, my association with love. If I just slapped the label on it-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- QWQuinlan Walther
... I'd miss the whole, the, th- all the important stuff, all the context.
- CWChris Williamson
It's a protection mechanism in some ways, a shallow level of curiosity that, "Oh, well, now I've pathologized it or identified it or given a term for it, that's enough. I've done the work." You gotta know that that's actually antithetical to doing the work. It's actually pushing you away from it because it's making you feel like you've done something whilst actually stopping you from diving into the thing that would've fixed it.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Bingo. Totally.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Completely. And the other part is the curiosity continues on. I mean, it's kind of ever-changing. The way that we feel, the things that we want change shape, change form. So there's, there's a lot there. Um, and then capacity. We're not really good at sitting in discomfort. We're pretty good at finding every possible way to get out of it, around it, under it, over it, all of the things. And, um, we typically prefer what's familiar over what's unfamiliar. So if we're used to our certain few emotions, we're used to good bit of disappointment, good bit of sadness, little bit of anxiety, and then a smidge of joy, we're [laughs] gonna probably stay within that-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- QWQuinlan Walther
... ratio unless we intentionally decide to expand the capacity there.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Where it's like, "No, no, no, no, I'm not gonna stay in the disappointment. I'm gonna teach myself how to move through it. I'm gonna support myself in whatever I need to do to move through this rather than just staying in it and drowning in it," whether that be-
- CWChris Williamson
Or fleeing from it
- QWQuinlan Walther
... or fleeing from it. Yes, exactly. And the, the positive, quote-unquote, emotions, it's the same thing. We [laughs] we like to think, "Well, if I can just get rid of my anger and my sadness and my disappointment and all of that, I can just relish in all of these good emotions." And the reality is 99% of us, if we took a good hard look at it, when the good stuff comes up, we're either waiting for the shoe to drop. "Well, it's not gonna last long, so what's it gonna be? What's gonna hurt me?" Right? We're al- we've already checked out of the happy moment 'cause we're expecting something to come around and, and kick us over. Or it's self-inflicted and we self-sabotage anyway because we don't trust it.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- 8:53 – 19:17
Are Our ‘Types’ Just Unresolved Trauma?
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned there about, uh, people feeling unusually familiar with negative patterns in the present related to something that they're probably, uh, they've become acclimatized to from their past.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
How much of having a type do you think is just unresolved trauma showing up in adulthood?
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs] Oh, this is a good one. Can I open my-
- CWChris Williamson
Crack on
- QWQuinlan Walther
... new tonic for this one?
- CWChris Williamson
Get that in you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Whoo.
- CWChris Williamson
You need it. Watch the nails.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, yeah, look, I, I...
- QWQuinlan Walther
What do you think? What's your opinion on that?
- CWChris Williamson
I think an awful lot of the things that feel exciting and activating to people in adulthood are absolutely familiarity masquerading as resonance.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's just something from your past. Um, there's this line from Kathy Overman-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... where she says, uh, "Your nervous system will always choose a familiar hell over an unfamiliar heaven." And Jesus fuck if that's not true, right? Like, how many people had the distant and difficult to please father that they had to perform for-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... and then if love is easily given to them in adulthood, they feel like they should run away.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Or it's not worthy of something. Uh, there's something wrong with people who show them love too easily, and there's something alluring about people that make them work for it.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Even though by definition they're probably the people who aren't showing up ready for a relationship and are gonna turn your life upside down. Or, um, somebody's mother was unusually fragile, uh, uh, or, um, explosive, and, uh, they had to walk on eggshells, and they get into a relationship with somebody who seems to be slightly unpredictable and explode when you might not anticipate it.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And that is felt by the nervous system as, "I've been here before." There is a... There's kind of an iron lore, I think, of, of attachment that if you have something that's unresolved from your childhood, you will continue to repeat that pattern until you-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... finally resolve it in adulthood or never do. And I think a lot of people end up in the never do.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Uh, just... It's like a book that you started when you were three years old, never finished, and then you spend the rest of your life trying to find a couple of chapters to finish it off.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs] I like that. It, you're speaking to the uncertainty that I was mentioning earlier, where it seems like most of the issues come down to uncertainty.
- 19:17 – 23:31
Who Do You Need to Be to Feel Loved?
- CWChris Williamson
How does somebody build safety as an adult?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think it's s- I would start with the question of who do you have to be to be loved? That's a pretty good place to start because ideally the answer is, "Well, myself." And it feels, it feels quite easy to say that. You're like, "Well, there's just, you know, I'm me and my mom loves me because of this, my best friends love me 'cause I'm just myself. You know, I don't, I don't feel like I have to be all that much." Versus if that question causes you to really tense and you're thinking, "Oh my God, well, I have to be the guy with this job title because status. I have to be the guy with this much money because power and importance. I have to be the guy that never shows his emotions, so I'm supposed to be strong and sturdy and everyone relies." It's like w- that there's a problem there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
There's a problem there because y- you belong just for existing. I think it's Brené Brown that says, "The opposite of belonging is fitting in." Maybe.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So to that, the opposite of belonging, the opposite of safety is fitting in because you have to be someone that you fundamentally aren't.
- CWChris Williamson
Performance.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Performing, yeah. So I would start with that question.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's an interesting one. I, I feel like the sort of hypervigilance that a lot of people are dealing with at the moment, this need to... It is about uncertainty. I think anxiety is, is almost exclusively about uncertainty.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
That if I can imagine every different potential path that the future might take, and imagine it, if it happens, I'll be ready.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yep.
- CWChris Williamson
I'll be ready. I'll be ready to take on whatever catastrophe, 'cause I've imagined catastrophes that the physics of reality couldn't even deliver to me.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
My grandma's come back from the dead, and she's, she's shouting at me because I did that thing wrong. And if I can imagine all of the different ways that the future might unfold, especially in horrible ways-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... I don't need to deal with the uncertainty of not knowing.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
So I've collapsed down the uncertainty of the world into a, albeit tragic, but certain nightmare.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Well, and run that through. Grandma comes back. Grandma's here yelling at you. Why is that bad?
- CWChris Williamson
Because I don't belong. Because I'm wrong.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Well, she would probably say something that would hurt your feelings.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So you're essentially running away from a bad feeling.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. By imagining a worse one.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Spend, spend days and weeks and months and years trying to avoid a bad feeling. A bad feeling, like you're letting emotions, a feeling, run your life. And not just run your life, but exhaust you in the process.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
When if you... I mean, I'll go extreme here. When, when my mom died s- and I was in my early 20s. I was relatively young. I had younger siblings, too, so there was a lot in that. But I remember when my mom died, I was like, "Well, you, you have a lot of options here, Quinlan. You can throw your hands up and, you know, stay in a ball on the living room floor for the next three to five years and pick your head up then and see what's going on. Um, or you can, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps lovingly and just venture out little by little with the grief, with the sadness, with all of the stuff, you know, on my shoulders, just like venture out little by little every day." And the other, the first option really included like, "Okay, but what happens if I start crying in public? What happens if I get a call that my brother's having a breakdown? What happens if, you know, X, Y, or Z? What happens if I'm in school and I can't remember..." I was in college at the time. "What happens if I'm in school and I can't remember anything on the exam that I was just studying for?" Right? All of these things were essentially, "What happens if I get sad?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
What happens if I have to deal with an emotion that I don't wanna deal with? And there's no way to control that other than to prep yourself, support yourself-
- 23:31 – 34:41
Are You Choosing a Partner Or a Wound?
- QWQuinlan Walther
you.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. How do you think people know when they're choosing a partner versus choosing a wound? Like, you have this old ancient script that's running inside of you. These patterns are laid down. This is what love is. This is how people relate. And then someone comes along, and the difference between chemistry and chaos-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... are usually kinda hard to discern.
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think the question there, I would tailor it a little bit to do you like the way the relationship feels?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Because we can... If it's really all conditioning- Right? If the wound is essentially bad conditioning, meaning it brings out a destructive relationship versus positive conditioning, if you will. Positive associations with love bring you a happy, healthy, stable, loving-
- CWChris Williamson
Of course
- QWQuinlan Walther
... relationship.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It could be my patterns from my past make me only choose people who respect me and are there for me and show up for me-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Right. We love that
- CWChris Williamson
... and make me feel like more of myself.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
I should get rid of those things.
- QWQuinlan Walther
We love that.
- CWChris Williamson
No, no, no, no, no, keep those ones.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
You need those ones.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So I think the real question is, how do you know if you're choosing from, from a wounded place? It's, well, do you like the way the relationship feels?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
And if not, there's probably something in your conditioning that has taught you to associate this subpar behavior-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... with love. And-
- CWChris Williamson
Bit interesting. That's... It, it's a great, it's a great answer, but how many people are surprised by, "Well, yeah, my, my relationship probably should make me feel good all the time. Most of the time."
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Revolutionary.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Show me where.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you know what I mean?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Show me. Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Like, that, that, that is... Well, no, 'cause, 'cause, uh, you know, it's ... Life's hard and life's supposed to be hard.
- 34:41 – 38:21
Are Avoidant People the Most Attractive?
- CWChris Williamson
Do you think avoidant people seem disproportionately attractive in the dating market?
- QWQuinlan Walther
[sighs] People who have a strong sense of self are attractive, period. Esther Perel talks a lot about this, where typically we find our partners most attractive when they're in their element, when they're self-sufficient, when there's a level of mastery or agency at play. We find people most attractive when they are doing their own thing. Avoidant people just tend to have that on the surface more readily available to be seen and admired. They have their lives, their jobs, maybe some friends, they, hobbies. There's more going on. They're not so obsessed with the validation of everyone else around them, right? Avoidant people just tend to show their more avoidant tendons... Or, I'm sorry, anxious people tend to show their more anxious tendencies kind of right off the bat 'cause you can sense it.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So on the surface, yes. I think the answer to your question is yes. Avoidants just seem to have more of that, um, independent sense of self, firm sense of self-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... right off the bat.
- CWChris Williamson
That's very interesting. I wonder how much as well the intermittent reward-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm
- CWChris Williamson
... of we're on, things are good, and then, hang on, where the fuck did you go? And we're on again, and things are good, and then, oh, you sort of ran away again.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder how much that combined with they're so impressive. They just seem to have, especially if you have the classic sort of anxious and avoidant relationship coming together, one who maybe is a little bit less self-assured, one who does need a little bit more reassurance from the other person, and someone else who seems to have it all together and can then provide the amount of stimulation and reward that you do want and then withdraw it.
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think it depends on what you value.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
And a lot of that Often comes with age. I won't say always, but I'll ... You get to a certain point where that rollercoaster is unattractive. You get through those first, uh, inconsistent exchanges. You haven't texted back in days or canceled plans again, and you've, y- part of you just says, "I don't ... No. No, thanks. Not interested. Been here 17 times. I'm not interested in an 18th round." Like, "No, thank you. I value communication, transparency. I don't need you available to me all the time, but you absolutely need to let me know rather than canceling last minute." Or like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- QWQuinlan Walther
... y- your standards are just clearer when you know what you value in a relationship. It becomes a hell of a lot easier to say, "Does this feel the way that I want love to feel? And if not, I'm good. I don't need to understand why. I don't need to know why you're avoidant. You know, what, what, what was it your m- was it your mom or your dad?"
- CWChris Williamson
The late, like, the late-night journaling sessions.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Give me ... Yes. [laughs] Um, it just doesn't help at the end of the day if the relationship isn't, for the most part, feeling the way that you want it to feel. That's the important distinction.
- CWChris Williamson
Such a basic rubric.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Crazy. Mind-boggling.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Of all of the different bits of relationship advice-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... do you feel good in this relationship, and is it making you feel the way that you want it to feel?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah. And that's a good thing to ask if you're already in a relationship, too. If you have a conversation with the person you're with, like, "Hey, is this feeling the way you want it to feel? Pulse check. What's up? Do ... Is there anything that I can do? Is there better ways that I can love you?" I mean, again, it's kind of a, kind of a cliché at this point, but do you know how the person you're with wants to be loved? Or are you coming in so big and bold and self-obsessed [laughs] that you're only giving what you wanna receive?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Looking outside of yourself.
- 38:21 – 41:07
Why Healing the Past Changes Everything
- CWChris Williamson
It's an interesting one around disappointment. You know-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Oh
- CWChris Williamson
... it's, it's very easy to show up well when things are going well.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But to sit in, "I've been disappointed, and I now need to try and be my best self too, even if this person doesn't deserve it." Like, they messed up.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
This person messed up. They don't deserve me to be good-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... now. Like, I'm allowed to stamp my feet and be petulant.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
So there's this line from Visakan Veerasamy that he calls the divorce paradox. He says, "Why is it that so many people seem to divorce their supposed best friend?" And it's the, the way people handle bad times is a much better indicator of how long the relationship will last than how they handle good times.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And the fact being that if you're able to go through a hard time and come out the other side okay, safety-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... that is, that, that, that is so much more predictive than we just didn't have enough peak experiences.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
You know? We didn't go to Six Flags enough.
- QWQuinlan Walther
We need more vacations.
- CWChris Williamson
We didn't go to Six Flags enough. He wouldn't ride the fast roller coaster with me-
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
... or whatever it is. It is all about how do you and your partner get on ... Obviously, there's other things, but I think way more separations occur because people couldn't deal with bad times, not because they didn't have enough of the elated ones.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Well, I think it's a ... I would, I'd venture to guess it's indicative of a bigger issue. Like, the not handling bad times is actually a symptom of a bigger issue, not handling bad times well.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Where just take consideration, consid- like, general consideration for someone else's well-being. If you don't naturally have that, if you aren't actively working on that, if you aren't aware that that's important in this relationship, you're definitely not gonna show up with that in bad times, and that would make the good times 100 times better.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
You see, you, you see what I mean? Where if you're, if you're pretty self-centered, if you're not all that introspective or self-aware, if you're not trying to become more emotionally mature, which I think most of us can almost always, you know, progress in, in that area, of course when bad times come around, your capacity's shot. You're kind of, like, running on E, and what's left is, is none of the good stuff.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
None of the stuff that keeps you together, that values connection.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Nothing that's gonna feed this love. But I think if you have it tenfold, if you have all of the love and consideration, all those things, um, that when you get down to running on E, there's still a little bit of that left.
- 41:07 – 45:43
Is Too Much Empathy a Bad Thing?
- CWChris Williamson
sense. Do you think empathy can become dangerous, then, in that regard? Uh, it, it overrides self-respect and boundaries. Too much understanding can be a bad thing.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah, absolutely. It could ... Empathy without boundaries is self-abandonment, and on the back end of empathy that lacks boundaries is some sense of, um, lack. Like, okay, if I just empathize enough, if I can understand why this person is treating me so badly, then I'll be able to rationalize it, and I can keep them around a little bit longer because I still need to be chosen. So the idea of being lonely and not having anyone there, we, we can't ... That's l- last, last thing we ever want to encounter. So let me just try to empathize enough to be okay with the behavior that I don't like-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh
- QWQuinlan Walther
... because it's meeting a need.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So rather than having a pretty firm sense of self that says, "I'd rather be alone than be treated like shit," I'm gonna say, "No, I'd rather be anything but alone, so I'll be okay with being treated like shit."
- CWChris Williamson
It's so interesting that you're saying empathy is rationalization to help us keep going.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it's ... Actually, empathy becomes very selfish in that way.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Abs- yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, it's both self-abandonment and selfish at the same time, but it's not really about the other person.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Well, self-abandonment is almost always self-serving.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
It's always the abandonment of self to meet some deeper need.
- CWChris Williamson
Say more
- QWQuinlan Walther
So if you're, uh, people pleasing, right? Similar to what we're talking about with empathy. Well, I'm just gonna make nice so everyone around me will be good and appeased because I need people around. I need to be accepted. I need to belong, right? So I'm gonna abandon so that I can get this fundamental need met. Where the self is really more, um, your self-respect, like your self-concept, the, the you that is, uh, maturing and has a firm sense of this is who I am, this is what I like about myself, this is what I, um, this is how I allow people to treat me, et cetera. But self-abandonment always comes with some kind of benefit. We don't just do it for fun. It meets some deeper psychological need that isn't being met overtly.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so interesting to think about that, that empathizing aggressively allows you to understand the other person's situation.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Which just extends that fuel. It just pours a little bit more fuel back into the tank.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, I can keep on pu- pu- pu- puttering along-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... a little bit more, and then, uh, something else happened. But I, I, oh, but their childhood.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Exactly.
- CWChris Williamson
You know? But their, their relationship to their stepfather.
- QWQuinlan Walther
And what about it? And what about it, is always what you follow it up with. What and what about it? We're all the way that we are because of something.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm. Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
No one j- did you just fall out of the sky like that? We ... There's a reason. There's a why for everything. It doesn't mean that it's reason to tolerate behavior that's disrespectful or harmful.
- CWChris Williamson
But ultimately it gets to, is this making you feel the way that you want it to?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah. And the-
- 45:43 – 52:04
The Boundary Lessons Everyone Needs
- CWChris Williamson
what do you wish more people knew about how boundaries worked? I think that this is ... I, I, I'm aware that a lot of the time pathologization of therapy speak language, but also a really important thing that you're supposed to do inside of a relationship. So, what do more people need to know about boundaries?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Boundaries are rules for yourself. For yourself. They are rules that I will abide by because I know what I want for myself, for my life, from the relationships that I will have in my life. It's a rule for myself. And people t- tend to think that it has to come with a, a means of control, controlling the other people around them, getting what they want out of life. It doesn't. It's, "I will do this," or, "I won't do this. This is what I want in life. Are you in or are you out?" Kind of a th- if, if you're specifically in romantic relationships, um ... There's a creator that I was ... I can't remember who it is, I'm sorry. Uh, th- I was watching a video and basically this couple that's married, um, the guy was saying that he didn't want to marry a woman who was going to bars.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Wasn't what he wanted.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
You know, bars are typically for single people. Now, whether you agree with that or not, it's a boundary of his.
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- QWQuinlan Walther
And he didn't even ask her to stop going to the bars, didn't ask her to leave. He just said, "I don't want to ... You know, I'm looking for a wife, and the wife that I have isn't gonna be going to bars by herself for, you know, for whatever reason." It was his boundary. She said, "Cool. I'm good with that. Don't need it. I'm also looking for the same thing, the same level of respect, so no more bars for me." That's his boundary, and she had the option to say, "Cool, I'm in," or, "No, sorry, I'm not."
- CWChris Williamson
Yep.
- QWQuinlan Walther
That's, that's an example of a real boundary.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Not, "Hey, you better leave because I told you that I wasn't cool with this, and so if you go to the bar, I'm not gonna talk to you and you're gonna..." No. It was his rule.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
She got to opt in or opt out.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
That's a boundary.
- CWChris Williamson
Interesting how many disputes that we've seen, you know, some text leak of a couple, famous couple or whatever, and one person is saying one thing, "This is what I like," or, "This is what I don't like," and yeah, the, uh, delivery of it.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
There's an awful lot to be said about that.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But ultimately, how many debates have been had online, on, on podcasts about should you be okay with your partner going to the bar or whatever? And you go, that, that is a completely personal choice-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes
- CWChris Williamson
... for you with your partner, and it is a completely personal choice for them, too. It is absolutely fine for you to want whatever you want.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes. Uh-
- CWChris Williamson
Up to a limit.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, to a limit. Must put a caveat in. Um-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Check the laws-
- CWChris Williamson
Exactly
- QWQuinlan Walther
... before, before you proceed.
- 52:04 – 56:43
Is Ego Getting in the Way?
- CWChris Williamson
What do you make of the differences between the sexes right now? Like, are men and women just becoming less culturally compatible?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think we're all becoming more egocentric. It's almost like arrested development. Uh, children by nature are egocentric because there's no way that their little brains can conceptualize anything beyond just them and their need to survive fundamentally, right?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
And so then ideally, you grow up and you can ascertain the stability of the world and whatever. You go on to form an identity and a sense of self. If you get stuck at a more egocentric age or in a more egocentric phase, everything is about you. Everything is a reflection of you. Your needs are the most important thing. People who have different, um, opinions or values or feelings, all the thing's wrong because it is me and I am I and the center of the world. I'm being hyperbolic, but I think that we have a really difficult time, both men and women, really looking outside of ourselves without losing ourselves. Are you familiar with the term differentiation?
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Are you familiar with the term enmeshment?
- CWChris Williamson
Kind of.
- QWQuinlan Walther
S-
- CWChris Williamson
Yes.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Okay. So they're ki- they're chips off of the same block.
- CWChris Williamson
Explain. Explain.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So differentiation is essentially I can stay connected to me while also being connected to you. So we are not one, and this goes for platonic relationships, uh, familial relationships, or all the things. But I can hold my sense of self while still being connected to someone who's different than me.
- CWChris Williamson
Give me an example of the opposite of that.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Enmeshment.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Codependency.
- CWChris Williamson
Right.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Right? Your feelings are my feelings, so if you're not okay, I'm not okay, and I have to fix it for both of us.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
That sense of we are all just one unit. I think that being able to hold on to who we are, what we want, what we value, and still being able to relate to people that have, that feel differently, that see the world differently, that have their own sense of self, I'm not sure that we have much practice in that, let alone solid examples-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... of what that really looks like.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's contributing to men and women struggling a little bit in the modern world because of cultural differences, because they're stuck in this childhood ego phase?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think it's... That sound, that sounds bad, but yeah, I think it is a, it's a socialization issue where we aren't really taught how to relate in a way that says, "Tell me who you are, and I'll tell you who I am, and we can still have a relationship even if all of these characteristics don't align."
- CWChris Williamson
As if your self is a threat to my self.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
Now, that's interesting, and that's certainly something I think that we see on the internet a lot, that- ... somebody stating a view, a, a, a girl stating a view about what she thinks to do with child-rearing-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... is seen by not only men, but especially women-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm
- 56:43 – 1:00:39
The Most Common Misconceptions Between the Sexes
- CWChris Williamson
What are the most common misunderstandings that you think modern men and women have about each other, if you were able to pull a chip out of one sex and give it to the other?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm. This is a really good question. I think I would want women to understand the power and influence and importance that they play in men's lives. I think that gets lost in conversation. You know, a good, loving woman is quite powerful in a man's life if he also loves and, and respects her. Like, and I think that that gets lost, especially in today's conversation of, like, um, submission and being a docile, good woman, and it's like we, uh... Just put the rules aside. You're important. You make a really big difference in, in this man's life, and I think that that should be reiterated. I also think that if, if women know that they're appreciated and that they're valuable, and just their, their presence and their love and their attention goes a long way, that's how we get things to, to change. When you feel valued, when you feel appreciated, it's like, "Oh, that's great. I wanna give more."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So that needs to be c- um, communicated. And I think that I would want men to know, so if I was implanting this-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... I think I would want men to know... I would want men to know that there's far more value in who you are beyond just what you can offer on a piece of paper, beyond just the things that you can write down. I see that a lot in, in clients that I work with who are dating and clients that I work with who are married. It's, it's still a lot of these norms of you're only really worth anything if you can, if you're of a certain size, stature, if you make a certain amount of money, if you have certain status, power, you know, whatever. The, the things that you can write on a resume-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... basically. And-
- CWChris Williamson
[clears throat]
- QWQuinlan Walther
... just the value in showing up and being present and being loving and being available-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... as a man-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... is also important and necessary to women. So basically, less bravado, if I make a long story short. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Do you think emotional men often get overlooked?
- QWQuinlan Walther
[sighs] I think it's starting to change, but I do think that there is a bit of socializing, um, socialization that has taught us that men aren't supposed to cry. Men aren't supposed to have more feeling. They're definitely not more feelings than the women in their lives. That's like, that'll, that'll scare you away. Like, oh, can't do that. And I don't think that's true, and I think that that conditioning... I know that's not true, and I think that the conditioning around that is starting to fall away.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think that we're having more conversations about it. We're taking a real honest look at what we were socialized to believe and that it doesn't really make sense, right? If women are complaining about all of these emotionally unavailable men, and I can't get the man to have a conversation with me, and, like, he doesn't care about my d- like you're just... If you want an emotionally available guy, that's gonna mean that his emotions have to come to the table.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So, you know, what do you want?
- CWChris Williamson
I want you to be able to sit in emotions, but only if they're mine.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
I don't want you to have your own. Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
I s- I see that mostly in, in the work that I do. It's like giving men the vocabulary and the language to express what it is that they're feeling and, like, the space to actually-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... communicate that. And then I often see a lot of the work with women is the practice of allowing the men's emotions to take up space and not just theirs.
- 1:00:39 – 1:02:01
The Mistake Many Women Make When Men Open Up
- CWChris Williamson
What are the problems that women encounter when giving enough space, giving space to men's emotions?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think there's, there's a fear that if their emotions aren't being recognized, if we're making space for his feelings, his emotions to come into play, then mine are just gonna be overlooked.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Then mine get put on the back burner, and then I'm just appeasing him, and then what am I even here for? I'm just here to validate him, and he doesn't do anything. It's like- Okay, well, nothing's gonna get done with that attitude. Nothing. The real question is, can you build the, the capacity and the practice of having your feelings and tabling them for a second while we also talk about his?
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Right? It's ... Women tend to feel and express boldly, largely, loudly in a lot of ways, which I'm not against at all. I'm very passion- I'm, I'm quite loud myself. [laughs] But it has to come with an understanding that if you wanna be in this relationship with another human who has feelings, sometimes we have to give it a beat. Emotions are not emergencies. Just because you feel a certain way doesn't mean that you have to act on it now, and it doesn't mean that we can't give attention to the other person who's in this dynamic.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Does that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
No, it does.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
It does. I, I've been thinking for a while, I wonder whether,
- 1:02:01 – 1:07:16
Have Dating Standards Become Unrealistic?
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder whether standards have risen or expectations have become unrealistic.
- QWQuinlan Walther
[sighs] Both? Am I allowed to say both? I think it's both.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think that far more people are actually marrying for love. I think that, again, Esther Perel talks a lot about this, but we're expecting one relationship to fill the needs that an entire village would've before, and we're on social media that is filled with every single highlight reel, magical moment that's all been produced and very meticulously crafted, by the way. Um, and then comparing that to our, you know, normal Tuesday nights. It's like, "Well, you must not love me 'cause you didn't send me $7,000 worth of flowers on Valentine's Day," and you sh- "I can't be with her because, to be honest, I mean, she's not a double D, and she's, like, put on, like, 10 pounds, and, like, she's kind of a bitch sometimes." It's like, can we just ... Where's the humanness-
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... in all of this? I think we've lost, we've lost the plot when it comes to expectations, and we need to make room for the higher standards that we have while also accounting for people's humanity, for the connection that occurs just between two people who have a little bit of chemistry, similar visions of the future, and decide to build lives together.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So I, I think it's both.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I see it in common threads all the time about problems with coupling, and I would say on average it's more, um, our standards have risen from women-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... and more the expectations are n- unrealistic from men.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, that at least from where I see it in comment sections. I would love someone to do some data on this. Um, regardless of who is saying what, um, it's not, it's not particularly helpful to say either of those things at the other side.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, "You need to be better."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Women or men. You go, well, do you not fucking think that they're trying? Who's actively trying to not be better?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Right? Who is actively trying to not be better, and s- when was the last time that somebody was, like, cajoled, like, beaten over the head into change en masse as a group?
- QWQuinlan Walther
[laughs] No, it doesn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
No.
- QWQuinlan Walther
It doesn't work.
- CWChris Williamson
No. No. People think that they can change other people, but they can't.
- QWQuinlan Walther
It-
- CWChris Williamson
And people think that they can't change themselves, but they can
- QWQuinlan Walther
... it's one of my biggest pet peeves, this idea, and it's kind of come back into trend recently, th- that we should be shaming ourselves into change. Like, bring back public shame. Bring back ... And it's like, why don't we just bring back, like, respect and, you know, uh, a sense of decency, but not shame? Shame, shame doesn't create any kind of sustainable change that anyone's going to want. The more that you criticize someone, the more that you shame them, the more that your actions are going to be fuel- I mean, okay, shame at its core is this fundamental belief that you are broken or bad. So everything that you do is going to be to s- some way disprove that you are fundamentally broken or bad if your actions are fueled by shame.
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
At some point you're gonna be exhausted and you're gonna run out of energy to do so because you can't outrun it. You can't disprove it. There's no way to do that, not the actual belief of shame. You, um, you're much better off trying to say, "That's not a person that I wanna be, and I believe in who I am. I'm devoted to being a better person, not because I'm fundamentally [laughs] broken, but because I know what a good person I can be, and that's my commitment, is to be that person." Do you see how, like, you see how that differs? So this idea of shaming your way into change, uh, bring back public shaming, it's like it doesn't work, and I think that it perpetuates more negativity, more aggression, um, and honestly more isolation than it does any kind of beneficial change.
- CWChris Williamson
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- 1:07:16 – 1:08:33
The Hardest Relationship Cycles to Break
- CWChris Williamson
A checkout. What do you think are the most difficult cycles for people to get out of in relationships?
- QWQuinlan Walther
The ones that are just kind of bad. Kind of ba- I'm, I'm kind of taking a left on your question, but this is what came to mind first. The cycles that are most difficult to break, I find, are the ones where the relationship is fine, not totally destructive, but, like, kinda bad. Because neither person is really all that committed to making the change in the relationship because it's just kinda bad.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So then over time, the cracks grow, and the cracks grow, and the damage continues, and it expand, and you're, you're, you're basically looking at an issue that could've been repaired if it had only been a little bit worse a little bit earlier because you probably would've taken it more seriously.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Does that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
That's the-
- CWChris Williamson
It's 1,000 tiny paper cuts.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yes. Yes, exactly. Or there's another option that people, if anyone's listening and is kinda like, "Oh, that's me," you can care. You can just start to care. You just have to intentionally see that this kind of bad thing could get worse if you don't pay attention to it.
- 1:08:33 – 1:15:01
How to Repair Ruptures in Your Relationship
- CWChris Williamson
You mentioned repair then. What's the gold standard for rupture and repair in your opinion?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Well, you have to start with curiosity. You have to make sure that you understand why the rupture happened, how the other person was feeling. Um, share how you were feeling. You know, whoever was, whoever was kind of on the receiving end of that, that damage has to be able to say, "This is why this hurt. This is what I was feeling. This is what your actions meant to me." And then the other person has to take accountability. It's really that three-step process: curiosity, accountability, and then actually changing.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Implementing-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... the, the change. And I think what often, what becomes difficult in this rupture repair kind of cycle, um, is the fact that we often don't change it right away. It will more than likely happen again-
- CWChris Williamson
Yep
- QWQuinlan Walther
... sooner than we'd like. And tolerating that disappointment can feel really difficult. So you rupture. You repair. "I won't do that again." And then you do.
- CWChris Williamson
It happens again.
- QWQuinlan Walther
And then there's this-
- CWChris Williamson
Same thing
- QWQuinlan Walther
... same thing, sensitive issue, comes back, comes back, and you're like-
- CWChris Williamson
"Hang on a second. I just gave you my trust that you were gonna change this thing. You didn't change this thing. It's happened again. It's never gonna change."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"I now can't ever trust any more repair."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yep. And the disappointment that you fall into with that. It's, there's a certain tolerance for disappointment that we all need. And I hate... It's such a, it's such a [laughs] it sounds like such a negative phrase. It's such a bad connotation. But there is a certain amount of disappointment that we have to tolerate if we're gonna be in relationship with another imperfect human.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Now, the second, third, fourth time that that issue comes around, that it was ruptured again, and it was ruptured again, I wouldn't say that's a si- it's not a sign that you're necessarily with the wrong person if each time it comes around you can stay in it with the same curiosity, with the same genuine, like, "Okay, shit, this is why I did... Okay, you're feeling this way? Okay, that's similar to last time, but this time there's a little more anger than there is sadness. Okay, so the reason why I screwed up this time for the fourth time, honestly, it just, it slipped my mind. And so because it just slipped my mind, this is what I'm gonna do to try to keep it more top of mind."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
"How does that sound to you?" Like, you're, you're gonna have to keep coming back to the same, to the same issues for at least a little bit-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... if not for a long bit.
- CWChris Williamson
You've got this line, "Life doesn't remove what isn't for you. It just lets it exhaust you over and over and over again until you choose differently."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah. Yeah. There's, um, [laughs] I also, I take issue with pretty much anything that starts with, "Someone who loves you would," or, "Someone who loves you wouldn't." I know that sounds like a kind of a... Yeah, okay, I'll explain.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
But the... You lose a sense of intuition when you take other people's black-and-white assumptions without any kind of introspection or feeling into your own sense of right or wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
So someone who loves you would. It's like, well, m- uh, someone who loves you would text you every, would text you good morning every day because they love you, and that's just how it is. It's like, okay, well, that's a little silly. There's plenty of ways to love people. I wanna feel into whether or not this love feels right for me because, like that, um, that line is, is highlighting, there's a sense of knowing that you have, a sense of knowing whether something is really for you or really not. So the universe doesn't remove what isn't for you. It just lets it exhaust you over and over and over and over and over again. That's gonna be a felt sense of, "Shit, this is the 700th time-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah
- QWQuinlan Walther
... that I've felt this way."
- 1:15:01 – 1:18:03
Balancing Impulse and Overthinking
- CWChris Williamson
how do you come to think about... I, and I think it's a really nice rubric. You are allowed to like the things you like. You are allowed to not like the things that you don't like, and your desires and the way that you feel is legitimate. But also, we know that instinct and intuition and gut feeling, uh, can cause us to act rashly.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
They can cause us to, um, follow our impulses when we should have actually taken a little bit more of a step back and tried to be a bit more equanimous. I know you're a fan of the mindfulness gap in between stimulus and response.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you come to think about balancing those two things? Because I think the curse of the overthinker is somebody who goes, "Okay, so it's important for me to feel how I feel, and how I feel is right." Well, yeah, but there's also impulse in there and a lot of reaction and sometimes activation.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you understand how these two things could be sort of on-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... opposite sides of the same scales?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think it comes down to knowing your values. The, the s- the majority of the decisions that we make become a lot clearer when we know what's important to us. So if, um, kindness is important to you, what's the kinder decision here? And genuine kindness, as in maybe I need to leave this relationship because it's unkind of me to stay in it knowing that this other person is fully in it and I'm not. Like, it's unkind of me to stay. So then the kind decision would be to leave, right? The... When you're looking at the, the values that you hold true to you, you basically are left with, okay, yeah, this one's more aligned and this one's not. And if you aren't, then it's pretty much a game of self-trust, 'cause you're gonna say, "I'm gonna go left and I'm gonna make the most of whatever left is gonna bring me."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
I trust myself to do that. I've looked at the... I, I have another video where I say, um, actually it's on overthinking, and it's, um, [laughs] basically, uh, if things go according to plan, great. Keep it moving. If it d- if they don't, great. Keep it moving. But the reality is you need to know that you are there to pick yourself up if or when things don't go according to plan. So make a well-intentioned decision, preferably one that aligns with your values, and then take it from there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
But if you're... I think if you know that you, that this decision isn't going to genuinely harm someone, if that, that's pretty obvious, right? If it's gonna harm someone, you probably shouldn't do it. [laughs] But most other decisions are typically gonna come down to what do I genuinely want more of or less of in my life? And it's gonna feel really big and really heavy, and it's gonna feel like this catastrophic or potentially catastrophic decision. It's like, well, if you really boil it down to this one's gonna bring me more of this and this one's gonna bring me more of that, which one do you want? And then you decide.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- 1:18:03 – 1:23:36
Why You Need Self-Trust in a Relationship
- CWChris Williamson
So much of it is, again, self-trust. It really does come back to that. I wonder how people are able to operate functionally inside of a relationship if they don't have self-trust.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Not well. Not well. I mean, you're looking at, you have to look at... You have to look at who you are in this, I call it, like, the third entity that, that you're building is the relationship, and you have to look at your side of the street, and that's really difficult to do without shame spiraling.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Like, being able to take a look at how you've contributed to the circumstances of your relationship that you dislike. Being able to genuinely do that is necessary to move the relationship forward in a healthy way, but it's impossible to do if you don't trust yourself to go there. If you don't trust yourself, you spiral. It's like, oh, I'm so bad and everything's so awful. And you're, you also can't, you can't hear the other person in the relationship without falling into, uh, you know, d- defense mechanisms and, uh, another shame spiral and more judgments and deflection, right? If you, if you bring something to your girlfriend, wife, whoever, if you, you're gonna say, "Hey, I'm really bothered by this. You know, I, I really miss you. You know, you've been working a lot. I've been working a lot, and I just, I want more time with you." She could hear that as, "He doesn't appreciate the work that I do. He just wants me home. He doesn't even understand. He only cares about his job," right? When in reality you're saying, "Hey, I miss you. Could you, could we spend more time together?" You have to be able-- She would have to be able to really trust-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... her ability to handle her own feelings, and thus trust you in the relationship to really hear the request there. Does that make sense?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. It's, it's interesting how many people would prefer to default to a shadow sentence or passive aggression. "Oh, going out with your friends again tonight," as opposed to, "I miss you and I'd really like to see you, and, and it would be really great if we could spend some time together this week."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, the difference in those two sentences. And one of them kind of encourages this ever-escalating game of tit for tat-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... of, "Well, last time when you did that thing, na, na, na, na, na," as opposed to, "I see where you are. You're doing something just exclusively out of love-"
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm
- CWChris Williamson
... pretty much, "And fuck, like, I should nurture that."
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
"I'm sorry that I haven't."
- QWQuinlan Walther
And you, you said that so nicely there.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
That was such a beautiful way [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
It's the British accent
- QWQuinlan Walther
... of suggesting [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
It's the British accent.
- QWQuinlan Walther
But sometimes it does come off a little passive-aggressive. And even in that opportu- even in that is an opportunity to actually listen in to what's being asked of you, even though the delivery isn't great. That's-- No, we don't like to talk about that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
We don't like to talk about having to be the bigger person in the relationship. And I'm not saying that you should be with someone who talks down to you all the time, you know, but we all have off days where we didn't regulate before we came to the table, and we weren't able to say, "Hey, I really miss you. Could we please spend some time together?"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
It comes off as, "Well, about time. Haven't seen you all week," you know, "First dinner we've had together in six days."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yada yada. There's an opportunity there to lean in and see, "Okay, what is being asked of me?"
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
"What is the request here?" You know, I care about this person enough to assume that what they want isn't necessarily to my detriment, right? It's not going to hurt me. They're looking for something that I can supply. So if they're looking for more love, what could the love look like in this passive-aggressive-
- 1:23:36 – 1:32:40
What AI Relationships Reveal About Modern Love
- CWChris Williamson
What do you think AI relationships say about people today and their need for connection?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I don't know. What do they say?
- CWChris Williamson
Well, I mean, there's an awful lot... Uh, uh, GPT-4o, when that got released-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Oh, you're saying our relationships with AI?
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. So the p- the fact that people are having relationships with AI, what do you think that says as a comment about where people's attachments are at the moment?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I think we search for the least amount of friction possible, and that's an issue because humans are imperfect, right? Like, we're, we're all fallible, and that's a problem when you can log on to a chatbot who's going to validate your every request, every desire, going to validate your every thought, your every feeling with zero expectations, zero, um, expectation of reciprocity anyway. Y- and you get to scratch that itch. That becomes a problem when you're looking at, you know, real life, and if you're really looking for a husband, a wife, a partner, someone to-- even just friends. Then your friends become annoying because your friends have inconvenienced you, unlike your chatbot does. Um, that worries me a little bit.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
It does.
- CWChris Williamson
Do you see, uh, Whitney Wolfe Herd, Bumble CEO, talk about how people's AIs will date other people's AIs-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... and then sort of pass that up to the inverse sales funnel?
- QWQuinlan Walther
I mean, I don't s- see... I would love to actually see what she's talking about, 'cause that just sounds insane. That sounds absolutely bonkers. You tell so much about a person by the photos that they choose on their dating app, by the way that they answer certain prompts-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm
- QWQuinlan Walther
... by the way that the opening line that you get when you first message. Like, there's so much that you read into. Well, what does that even mean, your AI avatars are going to be speaking to each other? I don't think it should be legal. Sorry, I don't. Or, I, I, I really, I think that you're crossing into really dangerous territory when it comes to choosing romantic partners based on your AI avatars. It removes the humanness from a fundamentally human necessity.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- QWQuinlan Walther
That's concerning to me.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, the one area that AI sucks is, uh, most, is taste.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Being able to be tasteful. If you ask it to tell you a joke, like, "Write an interesting joke about this," I'm yet to hear any that f- even partly understands how human psychology works.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Um, and that level of discernment, I think, is essentially nonexistent. Now, that, this may just be a compute problem, right? If you get 10 times the transformers, maybe this will just come along for the ride. But something tells me that, yeah, it's, it's fundamentally a human, a human challenge. And also, there is something about the meet, the, uh, what's it called? A meet cute story.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Like, how did you guys get together?
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
No one wants to say online. No one wants to say online dating.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
I fucking bet even fewer people want to say, "Oh, my AI avatar and his AI avatar-
- QWQuinlan Walther
Yeah
- CWChris Williamson
... they really got on well, and we didn't think it was gonna work, but the AI avatars, they convinced us."
- QWQuinlan Walther
I... Do we, do we know how it's going to work?
- 1:32:40 – 1:33:18
Where to Find Quinlan
- QWQuinlan Walther
Good. [laughs]
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, cute. Let's bring this one home. You're awesome. I love your work. I think you're great. I love the fact that you're trying to help people understand themselves better. Where should everyone go to check out what you're doing?
- QWQuinlan Walther
@quinlanwalther on all the things, all the places. I'm doing a live tour. Super excited. 12 live workshops. Um, dates to be announced, but it's in the coming months. Gotta keep that one a little, a little quiet.
- CWChris Williamson
I know.
- QWQuinlan Walther
But very excited.
- CWChris Williamson
I appreciate you.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
Until next time.
- QWQuinlan Walther
Thanks, Chris.
- CWChris Williamson
Bye. All right. See you next time, everyone. Yes. Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, YouTube knows who you are deeply. It thinks you're gonna like this one even more. Go on, press it.
Episode duration: 1:33:19
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Transcript of episode 7q9g3khJdAE
