How To Be Single | Relationships 104

Chris Williamson 0:01 What about you guys? Do you think there's any things to look out for-

Jonny 0:03 I-

Chris Williamson 0:03 ... red flags with men?

Jonny 0:04 So, the, the, the main thing is how do they talk about their ex, or if they have any generalisations about women as a whole, if you have someone who it just seems bitter about all women.

Yusef 0:15 So, so that was one. Second one was similar to what you said, I'd just ask them how ... I'd ask them about their mother. Like if they're very caring and speak very fondly of their mother, chances are-

Chris Williamson 0:23 Good to women generally.

Yusef 0:24 Yeah, chances are.

Chris Williamson 0:25 That's a, that's a really, really good test. I think I need to be very careful today. So, the, the, the reason that Tinder is bad is because it immediately brands whatever interaction you are having with the person under the guise of Tinder. Like, "How did you meet?" "Oh, we met on Tinder." "That's the guy from Tinder." You are rated below anybody, even the worst person who comes through on any other preferential medium. The worst person on Instagram is rated above the best person on Tinder. As my dad would say, with regards to the Tinder thing, "You're looking for a streak of piss in a pile of shit."

Jonny 0:57 Oh, see I was gonna say diamond in the rough, but I think-

Yusef 0:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:00 Streak of piss in a pile of shit. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back. Johnny and Yusuf from propanefitness.com, and it is finally time for Relationships 104.

Yusef 1:14 The funnel.

Chris Williamson 1:15 The insta- including-

Jonny 1:17 Oh, yes.

Chris Williamson 1:17 ... the Instagram funnel. This is the episode which is most likely to get me in trouble and make people cross.

Jonny 1:24 To rustle jinnies.

Yusef 1:25 Do you think because we're revealing the funnel, the funnel will work better or worse as a result?

Chris Williamson 1:30 I think I need to be very careful today. No, I ... the, the, the thing-

Yusef 1:34 I think we should go full Louis Theroux and just ask him about it. (laughs)

Jonny 1:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:38 Fine. "So tell us about ..."

Yusef 1:41 "Some people would say, Chris, that this is a very insensitive way of approaching relationships. What, what do you say to those people?"

Chris Williamson 1:47 So-

Jonny 1:47 I think the funnel's gonna be more effective as a ... 'cause people go, "Oh my God, I'm in the funnel."

Yusef 1:50 "I'm in the funnel, I'm in the funnel."

Jonny 1:51 "Yes."

Yusef 1:51 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:52 I, I don't think ... Anyway, so relationships 101, 102, and 103 all charted in the top 50 worldwide on iTunes.

Yusef 2:00 Oh.

Chris Williamson 2:01 So thank you very much.

Yusef 2:02 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:02 Make sure that you share this episode because-

Yusef 2:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:05 ... we wanna do the same again.

Yusef 2:06 You know when you just think like, "What did I say on those episodes?"

Jonny 2:09 Chris is like celebrating, we're just like, "Oh." (laughs)

Yusef 2:11 Oh, God. What ...

Chris Williamson 2:13 Well, you've just got s- severe potential regret, that you don't know what you said.

Yusef 2:19 Y- yeah.

Chris Williamson 2:19 Anyway, so we talked about, um, setting rules and guidelines in a relationship, how to find a good partner. Then we spoke about, uh, cheating, um, and how to get over relationships. And today it's how to be single.

Jonny 2:36 Hmm.

Chris Williamson 2:37 In this room I'm-

Yusef 2:37 So it's the anti-relationships 101?

Chris Williamson 2:39 No, because like how to be single includes, I guess, screening for potential partners.

Yusef 2:45 So we're in, we're in lead gen acquisition and the rest of this-

Chris Williamson 2:47 Conversion.

Yusef 2:48 ... was operations product delivery.

Chris Williamson 2:49 Yes. Exactly.

Yusef 2:50 Fine.

Chris Williamson 2:50 That's exactly correct.

Yusef 2:51 So this is front end?

Chris Williamson 2:52 It is ... Well, this is g- this is you, all over, apart from the fact that in-

Yusef 2:55 But, but you.

Chris Williamson 2:56 But somehow also me.

Yusef 2:57 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:57 Yeah. In the-

Jonny 2:58 So the assumption is being single doesn't mean choosing the hermit life.

Chris Williamson 3:02 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 3:03 It means single with-

Yusef 3:05 With the goal of-

Jonny 3:06 ... lead acquisition.

Yusef 3:07 ... acqui- acquisition.

Chris Williamson 3:08 Not necessarily. Well, it ... yeah, the goal of acquisition, but what you turn that acquisition into, is it long-term business? Is it short-term business?

Yusef 3:15 Got it.

Chris Williamson 3:16 Is it single transaction?

Yusef 3:18 So are, are we assuming ... So is the funnel mainly good for short-term stuff?

Chris Williamson 3:24 Look, so the, the ... (laughs)

Jonny 3:26 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:26 The funnel, the funnel that we're gonna bring up in a little bit is-

Yusef 3:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 3:31 (laughs) ... is not all that this podcast is going to be about. If you-

Yusef 3:34 So that, so that, Chris, is intensely disappointing.

Chris Williamson 3:36 (laughs) Right. I will explain because everyone's gonna be wondering what the fuck is an Instagram funnel. I've been thinking about it.

Yusef 3:42 Actually, let's not tell them.

Chris Williamson 3:43 (laughs) Okay.

Yusef 3:44 No, no. We'll just keep it, we'll just keep it wait- keep waiting.

Chris Williamson 3:46 Just open loop.

Yusef 3:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 3:48 No, I'm gonna-

Yusef 3:48 You wanna tell them?

Chris Williamson 3:48 I might as well. I'm gonna get it out of the way.

Yusef 3:49 All right.

Chris Williamson 3:50 So-

Yusef 3:51 Here we go.

Chris Williamson 3:51 ... I've been thinking about this for ages 'cause I knew that it was gonna, it was gonna happen.

Yusef 3:54 All right.

Chris Williamson 3:54 Um, an Instagram funnel is a particular way to do lead generation for dating. Now, the way that I've kind of tried to conceptualize it-

Jonny 4:07 Can we define a lead?

Yusef 4:09 I was just about to ask that and then I thought, "No, I best not interrupt."

Jonny 4:11 He's in full flow.

Yusef 4:12 Gonna get cross.

Jonny 4:13 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:13 Well, no, no.

Yusef 4:13 And then you did it.

Chris Williamson 4:14 You define lead.

Yusef 4:17 (sighs)

Chris Williamson 4:17 New customer. It's ... okay, it's new customer acquisition.

Yusef 4:20 Got it.

Jonny 4:20 It's, it's pre-customer, so a lead is someone who is within your circle, sphere of awareness, but hasn't yet bought something from you. The reason we're thinking in these terms is 'cause we've been very much in the depths of rearranging our product offering from multiple small cheap offerings compared to five or ten high-end, high-ticket products.

Chris Williamson 4:41 I should clarify that you're talking about-

Yusef 4:42 (laughs) Businesses.

Chris Williamson 4:42 ... internet marketing-

Yusef 4:44 Yeah, not- (laughs)

Jonny 4:44 ... not dating. (laughs) We are talking about internet marketing, but there are many great parallels.

Chris Williamson 4:48 There's loads of parallels.

Yusef 4:49 It's the first level of expressing some kind of interest, isn't it? It's, it's-

Chris Williamson 4:51 So I mean, what are the only two things that you need to do in internet marketing really when it comes to front end? You want lead gen and conversions. Am I right?

Yusef 4:59 That's it. That's all there is.

Jonny 5:00 So a lead-

Yusef 5:00 Traffic and conversions.

Jonny 5:00 ... would be a reader of your website or someone who is on your email list or someone who has seen your post on Facebook. And then a customer is obviously someone who has paid you for something.

Yusef 5:10 There's also a step between that which is prospect.

Chris Williamson 5:12 (laughs)

Yusef 5:12 So lead, prospect, customer.

Chris Williamson 5:14 Okay.

Yusef 5:14 Client.

Chris Williamson 5:15 Okay. Well, I mean-

Yusef 5:16 In, in this context though, it's someone who's moved away, moved d- more towards engaging in, with y- with you in something. Whatever, whatever that-

Chris Williamson 5:26 I'm just gonna, I'm gonna-

Yusef 5:27 Whatever that may be.

Chris Williamson 5:27 Let's reset. So-

Yusef 5:29 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 5:30 ... um, the way that I've tried to conceptualize it is that everybody ... uh, you would be surprised by how many people are appropriate for you and how many people you are appropriate for, but you don't have sufficient exposure. And I think that a lot of that actually comes from simply presenting yourself to them in the best possible light. Now for some people, they may be very good face-to-face, or they might be really good dancers, for instance.

Yusef 5:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:57 Like if you're a guy who's a good dancer or a girl who's a good dancer, you can walk into a nightclub and your lead gen are your dance moves.... like, because people are noticing that's the ... Yeah, that's exactly it. Macarena, yeah, exactly.

Yusef 6:08 I've seen Yousef do some real damage with that, that dance move, yeah.

Jonny 6:12 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:12 Serious.

Jonny 6:12 Cleaning up. (laughs)

Yusef 6:17 (laughs) This one. (coughs) Oh, nice.

Chris Williamson 6:21 Um, (laughs) so e- my point is that everybody needs a domain of competence in which they look like s- they have a particularly high degree of value. That basically gets you through the door, and I think what this leads onto quite nicely is my criticism about Tinder, which I think both of you guys know. And this is-

Yusef 6:40 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 6:41 ... not a strategy that I use anymore, but it was one that I used about five years ago and (clicks tongue) the way that is best, or the way that I think is best to use Tinder is to-

Jonny 6:52 What's wrong with Tinder first?

Chris Williamson 6:53 So the, the, the reason that Tinder is bad is because it immediately brands whatever interaction you are having with the person under the guise of Tinder. Like, "How did you meet?" "Oh, we met on Tinder. That's the guy from Tinder." You are rated below anybody, even the worst person who comes through on any other preferential medium.

Jonny 7:14 You're starting the race with a broken ankle, or like tryin' to sort of hobble.

Chris Williamson 7:17 Absolutely.

Jonny 7:18 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 7:19 And it, it just mars the, the, the rest of the exchange because there-

Jonny 7:23 Through no fault of your own, but it's just because every other guy or girl that th- your prospect is seeing on Tinder is possibly a creep or is from a pool of people that, um ... oh, y- you can't send dick pics, can you, but-

Chris Williamson 7:37 No.

Jonny 7:37 ... but there's that kind of thing-

Chris Williamson 7:38 Yeah.

Jonny 7:38 ... where it's like you just get creeped on so, so many ways.

Yusef 7:41 As, as, as my dad used- Y- you don't go on Tinder to, like, have a casual conversation, do you? There's a, there's an end in mind for most people.

Chris Williamson 7:46 There is. There is, which, that to itself is, is kinda good. But m- as my dad would say, with regards to the Tinder thing, "You're looking for a streak of piss in a pile of shit."

Jonny 7:55 I ... See, I was gonna say diamond in the rough, but I think-

Yusef 7:57 (laughs)

Jonny 7:57 ... I think that you-

Chris Williamson 7:58 Streak of piss in a pile of shit. So I think Tinder, Tinder really for that ... so an alternative for this, and this particularly works well if you're going away on holiday ... again, I, I don't want to come across as the transactional sex guy, but if you need to try and find yourself some companionship when you're going away-

Jonny 8:13 (laughs) The bilateral prostitution guy.

Yusef 8:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 8:13 Bilateral prostitution guy. Um, if you need to find yourself some companionship while you're going away, I think this is an optimal strategy. So onto Tinder, you need to pay for Tinder Gold, then you need to be able to move your location to where it is that you're gonna go. Pop yourself into there, determine your range, tighten the range in so that you are w- well within taxi distance of wherever it is that you're staying, 'cause you don't ... like, you're not gonna travel to the other side of God knows where. Then as you're swiping through people, if there's someone that you find that you particularly like, you can ins- scroll down, go to their Instagram, click through onto their Instagram so it opens, DM them, send message, then go back onto Tinder, swipe left so that they never see you and never find out that you found them on Tinder, then continue the exchange on Instagram. Now, obviously what all of this, that particular exchange is dependent on is the fact that you have an Instagram which at least shows some form of value, and that works for both guys and girls. Like if-

Jonny 9:12 I think, and even, even if not, you still will come across as less of a creep having an Instagram profile and evidence of friends or evidence of some-

Chris Williamson 9:20 (clears throat) Absolutely.

Jonny 9:21 ... you know.

Chris Williamson 9:21 You're immediately rated above the best person on T- the worst person on Instagram is rated above the best person on Tinder.

Yusef 9:26 So we've got in this ... so, so I've been through that. I've, I've done that with Ti- with Tinder. I've got five or six people on Instagram. There's two problems now. One is if my Instagram's just photos of me like-

Chris Williamson 9:38 (laughs)

Yusef 9:38 ... like that, then I'll probably struggle.

Chris Williamson 9:39 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 9:40 But also, I have to say the right things to them.

Chris Williamson 9:42 So the thing that-

Yusef 9:43 So what should my Instagram feed look like?

Chris Williamson 9:44 So (stutters) I said this on the, um, how to get on Love Island video, and it's that your Instagram particularly, because it's quite surface deep, quite transactional, very easy to see, it's visual, right? Like Twitter and Facebook is a little bit more nuanced 'cause it's microblogging, whereas when you're looking at Instagram, it's like window shopping.

Yusef 10:04 It's just images.

Chris Williamson 10:05 Right. Yeah, exactly.

Yusef 10:06 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:06 Um, so Instagram is absolutely no representation of your value, but it is a ubiquitous, internationally recognized form of social currency.

Yusef 10:16 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 10:16 And it does represent some degree of popularity. Now, that popularity might have been gained through the fact that (clears throat) you were once in a porno or, do you know what I mean, like any particular reason or you were once part of a race scandal. God knows what it might be, but it ... you can't-

Jonny 10:34 But you were recently.

Chris Williamson 10:35 Part of a race scandal?

Jonny 10:36 With the, the antisemitic stuff and-

Chris Williamson 10:39 You, you are talking about Chris Williamson MP, yeah.

Jonny 10:42 Oh.

Yusef 10:43 Oh.

Chris Williamson 10:43 Yeah.

Jonny 10:43 That looks really good. (laughs)

Yusef 10:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:44 That is ... Yeah, so of all of the, of all of the politicians-

Yusef 10:48 Straight over my head. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 10:49 Of all the politicians that I could share a name with-

Jonny 10:52 I know. That's so unfortunate.

Chris Williamson 10:53 ... I had to choose the one that started hating on Jews.

Yusef 10:55 (snorts) Yeah.

Jonny 10:56 Doesn't happen very often that you get a antisemitic politician in the UK, and then-

Chris Williamson 10:59 But the problem is he's been in the news like three times in the last 18 months and all of them have been for bad reasons.

Yusef 11:06 (laughs) There was a hashtag about ... just #ChrisWilliamson as well.

Chris Williamson 11:09 Yeah, no. It trended nationwide.

Jonny 11:11 Oh, guys.

Yusef 11:11 You know, Paul.

Chris Williamson 11:12 Yeah.

Yusef 11:13 So he got ... someone got his Twitter handle, some- someone called Paul Charnock had done something in the US, like something really criti- critical and start- like a UK journalist had said that ... started tagging Paul saying, "I'm gonna write articles about this." So you, you do have to be careful with what you call yourself, what, your birth name, and then your-

Chris Williamson 11:33 You need to be careful, yeah, in advance.

Yusef 11:34 ... Twitter and Instagram handle. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 11:35 So, um, yeah, with regards to the Instagram thing, like I, I think that you do (laughs) people do need to think about the way that they come across online. Like as well, (clears throat) you might be someone from the old school who says, "I prefer to meet people the old way." It's like, well, that's great, but you have to spend an awful lot of time out and about just looking versus how efficient you can be on your phone. Especially f- the fact that you can essentially be dating. This is presuming again, presuming that somebody actually wants to find a partner.

Yusef 12:05 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:05 You can be dating on your lunch break.... you know what I mean, browsing around-

Yusef 12:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:09 ... and messaging people and putting in groundwork, so to speak, so that you, you know, progress whatever relationship it is that you're-

Jonny 12:14 Compared to the '90s where you'd, uh, you'd go out to a coffee shop and just speak to people on your lunch break.

Chris Williamson 12:19 Well, I mean-

Jonny 12:19 It's like that's a very... The, the interesting thing as well, just on the note of like the, the image that you're creating on Instagram, is what you said about, like, if there's multiple photos of them, just go like... Because I think there is no greater creep stamp than a photo of someone-

Chris Williamson 12:34 On my Instagram.

Jonny 12:34 ... in the house on their own.

Yusef 12:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 12:37 (laughs)

Jonny 12:37 Because it's just like, it-

Chris Williamson 12:38 Or a series of photos of one person in lots of different locations.

Jonny 12:41 Yeah, you d- you see some people that all of their profile-

Chris Williamson 12:43 No.

Jonny 12:43 You see this on Facebook, like people, uh, their profile photos, they've got 10, and it's always just them either in their room or in different places.

Chris Williamson 12:51 Mm-hmm. Slightly sullen.

Jonny 12:53 Slight... Yeah, just unhappy at life.

Yusef 12:55 It's like a magazine, isn't it? Or a brochure of you.

Chris Williamson 12:58 Yeah. But again, like, this is, you know, someone could say, "Well, that, you know, fucking... I'm not using my Instagram as a shop window for me." Then, like, that's fine, but you need to concede that if Instagram was part of your lead generation, that your-

Jonny 13:10 Which it should be.

Chris Williamson 13:11 ... well, which it can be. Like, again, good dancer, fine, you don't need to do Instagram. You can do whatever. But if you want to give yourself, obviously, you know, 80/20 it, cover all of the bases to a degree, and it's not hard to have a, a good outward representation of yourself. So yeah, like, the photos of you pushing your mate down the street in a trolley pissed or, like, you battered at your gran's 80th, like, they'll probably keep them off.

Yusef 13:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 13:36 Um, and stick to the ones that are well-lit and, you know-

Jonny 13:39 Okay.

Chris Williamson 13:40 ... look nice. So, uh, m- my main point here in the whole thing really about the Instagram (laughs) , the Instagram funnel is just that you want to have some form of, um, high immediate value that other people can interpret. And I think the reason that Instagram has become this really interesting, um, social currency is that it is a game that almost everybody's playing. So it's the same as when you watch the Olympics, you watch Usain Bolt, and you watch how fast he runs. Everybody has run, pretty much everybody has run. And you're like, "Holy fucking shit, I've done something similar to that and he is the best in the world at it."

Jonny 14:21 Mm.

Chris Williamson 14:22 The same as when you watch people that are really strong. People watch, like, Strongest Man's on every, um, Christmas, right?

Jonny 14:27 Mm.

Chris Williamson 14:27 Like prime time Channel 5.

Jonny 14:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 14:30 Because everyone looks at a big stone and goes, "Fucking hell."

Jonny 14:34 "I can't lift a stone."

Chris Williamson 14:34 Like, I, I tried to, I tried to pick up the shopping the other day and it was really heavy. So those people are competing within a domain that other people can interpret.

Jonny 14:43 The conversation in the office, "Johnny, how much do you lift?" "300." "300?"

Yusef 14:49 "Is that a lot?"

Jonny 14:49 "Whoa, is that... That's like 300 bags of sugar."

Yusef 14:53 (laughs)

Jonny 14:53 "I'm, I'm... Well, since when have you..."

Yusef 14:54 I always get, at Christmas, I always get, like, "How much can you do on that?" I'm like, "Uh."

Chris Williamson 14:57 "How much can you do on that."

Yusef 14:59 Because when they're watching Strongman.

Jonny 15:00 Or a snatch, and you're like... Yeah.

Yusef 15:01 Like, I'm not Strongman, I don't weigh 200 kilos.

Chris Williamson 15:04 (laughs)

Yusef 15:04 I don't use a lot of anabolics. I'm, I'm not on TV. Not that v- not that much in comparison. They're like, "Oh, go on. How much?"

Chris Williamson 15:12 (laughs) .

Yusef 15:13 Half.

Chris Williamson 15:13 So you can give them any number.

Yusef 15:14 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:15 You, you could say-

Yusef 15:15 10,000.

Chris Williamson 15:17 Oh, whoa.

Jonny 15:18 Whoa.

Yusef 15:18 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:18 Yeah, understood.

Jonny 15:19 "That's like three of me."

Yusef 15:20 So because I have an Instagram-

Chris Williamson 15:22 Yeah.

Yusef 15:22 ... and I have f- 400 followers and I see someone's Instagram that has 5,000 followers and lots of really polished photos and it's like, "Wow, this person-"

Chris Williamson 15:33 Good shop window.

Yusef 15:34 "... therefore is popular."

Chris Williamson 15:36 Well, you've got some so-

Yusef 15:37 Same, et cetera.

Chris Williamson 15:37 It's social proofing.

Yusef 15:38 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 15:38 Right? And, uh, this comes back to kind of the first thing that I said, which I think is really virtuous actually, that a lot of people would make fantastic potential partners. The only problem is that you're not giving them the chance.

Jonny 15:51 It's the marketing.

Chris Williamson 15:52 Yeah. They're, they're, they're, they're literally, they're literally just marketing themselves poorly.

Yusef 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:57 Or maybe you're marketing yourself poorly. So it's like right, well, if you present yourself online in the best possible way, and if everyone else does as well, then you're giving yourself the best chance of being accepted by whoever, whichever potential partners it is that you want to get.

Yusef 16:11 So I suppose all Tinder's doing by allowing photos and content on there is a, is, uh, almost like a template of like, "Look, fill this in, fill it, fill the best stuff in," and this is a mini version of Instagram, isn't it? And everyone has that.

Chris Williamson 16:25 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 16:25 But that's all in the context of, "I've created this to try and get a date or get laid or whatever."

Chris Williamson 16:31 Well, because the least sexy thing about any exchange between two single people is one of them obviously knowing that the other one's after them.

Yusef 16:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:41 And Tinder precludes that immediately.

Yusef 16:43 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 16:45 Does that make sense?

Yusef 16:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:46 Like, it just chops off at the knees any coyness about the exchange.

Yusef 16:51 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 16:51 Because like how, how the fuck are we... Like y- we both know why we're on here, like-

Jonny 16:55 Which is good for the very utilitarian, like, I haven't got time for any nonsense people- ... where they're just like, "Right, okay."

Chris Williamson 17:02 I get that part.

Jonny 17:02 "Power off and..."

Chris Williamson 17:03 Even with that in the exchanges backwards and forwards that you have on Tinder, they tend to be so, like, vapid.

Jonny 17:09 That's why everyone's j- like you see the, the whole, "Oh, I'm just on here as a joke," like, or "Just I'm not really seri-" Like people trying to qualify that they're not really that serious about it-

Chris Williamson 17:19 Mm.

Jonny 17:19 ... to try and communicate that-

Chris Williamson 17:21 In short, Tinder should only be used for lead gen, get them onto Instagram, then use that for lead conversion. Okay, there we go. Um, uh, when it comes to... That, like, really, to be honest, that is about as far as the Instagram funnel goes. Like, there's no secret script to converting from, uh, from there in-

Yusef 17:38 I bet there is.

Chris Williamson 17:40 (laughs)

Yusef 17:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:40 There is a-

Yusef 17:41 You don't think there is?

Chris Williamson 17:41 There, there isn't, there is an upsell available in the show notes-

Yusef 17:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:44 ... but there isn't. Not yet. Um, but really, uh, you just need to develop some degree of charm online. Like that-

Yusef 17:52 So here are some quite, maybe quite cold questions. So how many, how many people, leads does it take to get someone to have a meeting off Instagram? Now I realize your numbers may be-... better than the average person. (laughs) But is it, are we talk- 'cause obviously Tinder, like, if I'm on there, I have an expectation that at some point someone's gonna wanna meet me off Tinder.

Chris Williamson 18:17 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 18:17 Right? So I'm, let's say, is it, I don't know-

Chris Williamson 18:20 Lo- so on Instagram-

Yusef 18:21 ... one in ten, am I gonna expect one in 20, one in 30 on Instagram, or-

Chris Williamson 18:24 On, on Instr- on Instagram it would be lower leads, uh, lower volume leads, higher volume conversions. But you need to screen more carefully because not everyone's single.

Yusef 18:32 Right.

Jonny 18:33 What are the factors that influence conversion? So you, you've mentioned total number of followers.

Chris Williamson 18:38 Good-

Yusef 18:38 Photos with good lighting.

Chris Williamson 18:39 Curated feed. And then just-

Yusef 18:41 Curated feed.

Chris Williamson 18:41 ... literally just compatibility. So I think really it's n- we can try and create this semi-autistic framework for (laughs) -

Yusef 18:47 (laughs) Fully autistic.

Chris Williamson 18:48 (laughs) Fully autoni- yeah, fully automated.

Yusef 18:51 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 18:51 Um, we, we can try and create this kind of framework for it, but like-

Jonny 18:54 I can feel the YouTube comments already, like on the last one we made, "You're comparing women to the secondhand car market." Like, no, we're not comparing women to the secondhand car market.

Yusef 19:02 Comparing people.

Jonny 19:03 Comparing relationships to-

Chris Williamson 19:03 Women and men.

Jonny 19:04 Like, you've inserted-

Yusef 19:04 Which is absolutely valid.

Chris Williamson 19:06 Yeah. Um, but yeah, like, you ... I don't think that there is really much that can be done.

Yusef 19:12 So I suppose wh- what I'm, what I'm getting at with the question is, um, if you stand in a supermarket and try and sell people something-

Chris Williamson 19:22 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:22 ... versus if you go around and knock on people's doors and try and sell people something, it's a different experience because one of them, I'm there to buy things, and the other one is like, "I'm in my home, piss off."

Chris Williamson 19:30 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:30 Like, if I'm just on my Instagram and someone messages me, 'cause Tinder is very much like the Facebook feed where once upon a time it was just people posting ph- like photos of themselves. Now to get attention it's like, "Attention!" Blah, blah, you know, like, fake news shit.

Chris Williamson 19:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yusef 19:44 Because w- we're trying to get attention, so people open with stupid shit on Tinder and s- and, you know-

Chris Williamson 19:49 Yeah.

Yusef 19:49 ... have all these attention-grabbing headlines. That's what they're used to on Tinder. You obviously can't do that on Instagram.

Chris Williamson 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 19:55 Or if you try to, you're gonna be like-

Chris Williamson 19:57 You'll come across very weird.

Yusef 19:58 ... "I'm gonna ring the police." Because people aren't expecting that on Instagram. They're expecting, like, "Hey, how are you?"

Chris Williamson 20:03 Well, it's ... the other thing as well to consider is that no one, I don't think anyone really can have too many friends, and just by messaging someone you might actually end up making a good connection with them.

Yusef 20:12 Wh- there is a number, isn't there? There is a, there is a thing-

Chris Williamson 20:14 Dunbar's, Dunbar's number.

Yusef 20:15 Dunbar number, yeah.

Chris Williamson 20:15 Dunbar's number, 250.

Yusef 20:17 Of like how many friendships people can actually maintain.

Chris Williamson 20:19 It's supposed to be how many, um, connections, interplayed connections between different social actors within your consciousness you can hold onto at one time. And that's supposed to be the upper limit of what our tribe size would've been when we were nomadic people-

Yusef 20:32 Right.

Chris Williamson 20:33 ... moving around. But having spoken to William Von Hippel, um, who is like king big dick on this, he was like-

Yusef 20:38 Makes me think of raspberry ripple. Makes me think of raspberry ripple.

Jonny 20:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 20:41 He, he didn't, he didn't have any.

Yusef 20:42 Didn't he know? That's funny.

Chris Williamson 20:43 Um, he, uh, he said that realistic upper, upper, um, bound was 50 because if you've got a tribe of 250, people at the bottom have no chance of rising to the top so they just splinter off and make their own. Um, it's too big.

Yusef 20:58 So you have multiple 50 size tribes?

Chris Williamson 21:00 Around about that. It would appear that between kind of 20 and 50 was more realistic. But yeah, I mean, f- also any promoters that are listening, you know that that's bollocks. Like, I'm able to, in my heyday I was able to have like a thousand people and understand-

Jonny 21:12 'Cause that's, that's when you're pushing it and you're, you're like, "Now I have to start creating systems to maintain as..."

Yusef 21:17 (laughs) .

Jonny 21:17 But, so apparently as well off the back of the 250 thing, seeing a friend or touching base with someone every 14 days apparently is the, the minimum interval that you need to-

Yusef 21:30 To maintain.

Jonny 21:31 ... maintain a friendship, yeah.

Chris Williamson 21:32 Imagine if, imagine if Johnny went really hard on his digital detox, that's 30 days, we're no longer friends.

Yusef 21:36 Just (clicks tongue) gone.

Chris Williamson 21:37 If you do, if you do Cal Newport's digital detox we'll no longer be friends.

Yusef 21:39 I'll have no friends. I won't have no friends by the end of it.

Jonny 21:41 But, but it's not, it's not a one strike and you're out. Like I th- I feel like if you, if you-

Chris Williamson 21:44 No, it is.

Yusef 21:45 Well, it's not 14 days, is it?

Jonny 21:47 ... lost it. Hmm.

Chris Williamson 21:48 (laughs)

Jonny 21:48 Yeah, have to have a word with Raspberry Ripple. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:52 See-

Yusef 21:53 (laughs) See if he's had any raspberry ripple yet.

Chris Williamson 21:55 So anyway, so-

Jonny 21:56 Have you had any?

Chris Williamson 21:57 (clears throat) I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go back to just more, now we've moved on from the Instagram funnel thing. Fuck.

Yusef 22:02 Now we just have more of that?

Jonny 22:03 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:03 No, no more Instagram funnel. The ... You just like this 'cause it's like internet marketing.

Yusef 22:07 No, I like it because-

Chris Williamson 22:09 (laughs)

Yusef 22:09 ... it's what everybody wants to know.

Chris Williamson 22:11 Well, yeah.

Yusef 22:12 So anybody who's seen ... I don't know how much I can say.

Chris Williamson 22:16 Previous episodes of this?

Yusef 22:17 No. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:18 Oh.

Jonny 22:18 Oh.

Yusef 22:20 So you're, you're, you're a popular guy with women. Yeah?

Chris Williamson 22:25 Uh-

Yusef 22:26 Y- Yusuf and I have s- have observed this. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:28 (laughs) Sorry.

Jonny 22:29 Tread incorrectly purely-

Yusef 22:30 Nothing, nothing's blown up yet.

Chris Williamson 22:32 (laughs)

Yusef 22:32 (laughs) So, and, and I imagine other people will have, will have observed that.

Chris Williamson 22:38 Uh-huh.

Yusef 22:39 So ...

Chris Williamson 22:41 (laughs)

Yusef 22:41 (laughs)

Jonny 22:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:42 I'm, I'm watching you fight against the binds of an invisible, like-

Yusef 22:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:48 ... corridor maze that you're walking through.

Yusef 22:49 You see, I don't know what I'm afraid of 'cause as soon as I say the wrong thing-

Chris Williamson 22:51 I'm just gonna turn it down.

Yusef 22:52 ... it'll just get axed, so.

Chris Williamson 22:53 Yeah, exactly.

Yusef 22:54 But yeah, so that, that's what people want to know. Like, if I, I'm a, I'm a single guy or a single girl and I, I'm str-

Jonny 23:00 Single 21-year-old horn, horn-laden man that just wants-

Yusef 23:05 Or, or, or woman. Or woman.

Jonny 23:06 Or woman.

Chris Williamson 23:07 Come on.

Jonny 23:07 Oh, God.

Yusef 23:07 Come on, don't be, don't be like that.

Chris Williamson 23:08 Everybody gets, everybody gets horny.

Yusef 23:10 So, (laughs) and, and, and I'm struggling with Tinder, I'm having crap results, and this is relationships 104-

Chris Williamson 23:17 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 23:17 ... pro, pro edition.

Chris Williamson 23:18 How to be single.

Yusef 23:19 How to be single.

Jonny 23:19 How to be single.

Chris Williamson 23:19 But how to be single-

Yusef 23:20 I, I, I want the method.

Chris Williamson 23:20 How to be single doesn't simply exist online. Like, I think that, again, the synopsis of this first section is, in my opinion, that you need to try and find a domain of competence, or a domain i- in which you represent or you present as much value as is possible as quickly as is possible. And that means, like if you like CrossFit girls let's say, let's say that you like really fit girls. If you get good-

Jonny 23:46 Or men. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 23:49 (laughs) From now we're only-

Jonny 23:49 Does this apply to, d- d- in, in seriousness, do, do you think this domain of competence and the social proofing strategy applies as much in both ways? Like, do you ... 'cause I remember you asked Raspberry Ripple this-

Chris Williamson 24:01 Yeah.

Jonny 24:01 ... which was, are, um-

Chris Williamson 24:03 The Rippler.

Jonny 24:04 Is, yeah, like is social status as much of a coveted feature in-

Chris Williamson 24:10 ... male to female attraction- Uh- ... as it is for female to male. So, I think, as we've said in the previous episodes, the typical, uh, direction of, uh, the protagonist's dialogue goes male to female. Uh, males tend to be the actors and females are like the maidens, right? Mm-hmm. (clears throat) Like that's just typical. Mm-hmm. Um, so I think girls essentially just get better conversions on everything. They're just better at lead gen, they're better at conversions. Like, because if they- At the initial stage. Yeah. Now, uh, m- moving forward in relationships is, they actually ... that probably gets reversed. Mm-hmm. Um, so you can have a wider initial market, but then actually converting them into a proper boyfriend or girl ... a, a proper boyfriend as a girl is probably gonna be a little bit more difficult.

Yusef 24:53 Rat- rationally speaking-

Chris Williamson 24:55 Mm.

Yusef 24:55 ... statistically speaking, you would assume that's because (laughs) ... just getting all the prefaces in there.

Chris Williamson 25:02 (laughs)

Yusef 25:02 You would assume that that's because women receive more propositions than men.

Chris Williamson 25:07 Yes.

Yusef 25:07 So, like, if, if a man receives five propositions a year and he knows he's gonna, gonna receive five propositions a year, he's probably gonna say yes to quite a lot of them.

Chris Williamson 25:14 Mm-hmm. Uh-

Yusef 25:14 Which would suggest that women have ... That's why they-

Chris Williamson 25:17 Because the bottleneck is wide at one point and narrow at the other-

Yusef 25:20 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 25:20 ... and it flips for-

Yusef 25:21 Whereas if, if women receive 50 a year, they can afford to be more selective without going through periods of-

Chris Williamson 25:25 I also think that that is genetically just the way that we tend to be wide as well.

Yusef 25:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:30 That men will go, uh, wide and shallow and women will go narrow and deep.

Yusef 25:34 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 25:35 Um, but yeah, so I think, uh, like I say, to, to bookend that, you need to try and find some domain within which you present value and also yourself in the best possible light. Uh, like I say, if you like, uh, girls who do CrossFit, like, get really good at CrossFit and spend some time in a CrossFit gym. Like, if you, if you get really good at CrossFit and you rise to the top of the people within your gym, you are presenting yourself in ... with a lot of value in a domain which they are competing in.

Yusef 26:00 Mm.

Chris Williamson 26:01 The reason that I think or the reason that I'm proposing that Instagram is a, uh, a fruitful avenue for a lot of people to do is it's a domain that almost everyone competes in.

Yusef 26:12 Agreed.

Chris Williamson 26:13 Everyone understands what 1,000 followers and 10,000 followers and 100,000 fol- ... and this particular kind of image and et cetera, et cetera, this many likes on a photo.

Yusef 26:21 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 26:21 Again, these aren't, like, judgments on your genuine value, but the point is that- They're a metric which allow a quick judgment. Exactly. And all you're doing is getting yourself cross in the best possible light.

Yusef 26:33 Also, if, if you take the, uh, s- the average 20-something who's left uni and now works a job, maybe goes to the gym or CrossFit or something, goes out on the weekend, struggles to meet someone they like in a club, there's no one they like at work, like, where are you gonna find that person? 'Cause-

Chris Williamson 26:49 B- big question. Yeah. And this is a big trap that people are stuck in. Well, yeah. They have the same routines and the same people-

Yusef 26:53 You've maybe had a relationship at, at uni that failed or is no longer there. You're looking ... you're moving, in your late 20s, looking for someone to settle down with, but, like, who is that person? So, it's how do you find that? That's why Tinder or that's why these services become an option, because how do you f- ... you just need to be in contact with more people, don't you ultimately?

Chris Williamson 27:10 It's difficult.

Yusef 27:11 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:11 It's difficult, man. Um, so yeah, that's, that's that section, I suppose. I think what ... (snaps fingers)

Yusef 27:18 Oh.

Chris Williamson 27:18 Yeah, exactly. Thank fuck for that. (laughs) (exhales)

Yusef 27:21 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:21 Um, what I wanted to kind of move on to was just the strategies really for, uh, being careful about who you actually choose to date. So, uh- Red flags. Yeah. Big, big, fat red flags. Anyone who is ... I mean-

Yusef 27:34 I feel like we're just walking through a minefield here.

Chris Williamson 27:35 It's, it's delicate, right? But whatever.

Yusef 27:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 27:37 Like, fuck it. People, people get cross with us all the time.

Yusef 27:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 27:40 It's fine. My, my DMs are open, as always. Funnel.

Yusef 27:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:44 (laughs) Um, you, you just get dropped in the funnel. If you message about it, all that's gonna happen is ... (mimics sound of message arriving) .

Yusef 27:48 Before you know it, you're on a date with Chris and you don't even know why or-

Chris Williamson 27:51 (laughs)

Yusef 27:52 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 27:52 So, I think for safety, the, the first thing to do is to identify red flags in our own gender and then ... And the ... Also, what we haven't done is gay 101 or gay-

Yusef 28:04 We're waiting, we're waiting on a ... I've got a couple of potential good, eloquent-

Chris Williamson 28:08 That ... I'm excited for that because- ... gay men. ... 'cause I don't know if I'd go-

Yusef 28:10 I just want ... I'd like to learn more about it.

Chris Williamson 28:12 Yeah. I want to know how you know if you're a bummer or a bummy.

Yusef 28:14 (clears throat)

Chris Williamson 28:16 That's a question everybody wants to ask.

Yusef 28:17 Is that, is that a conversation?

Chris Williamson 28:18 Burning question.

Yusef 28:19 Like, is that a ... Do they actually have a frank conversation about it?

Chris Williamson 28:22 I think that there must be-

Yusef 28:22 Uh.

Chris Williamson 28:22 ... some form of written agreement.

Yusef 28:24 Like a waiver.

Chris Williamson 28:26 I don't know. Or do you get assigned? I know ... So, you told us that it was this bottom or top thing, right? Was it you who told us this on Tinder? Well, that, that, that's the- Uh, Grindr. Oh, well, they list themself as one. I don't know if-

Yusef 28:37 Bottom or top.

Chris Williamson 28:37 That would be clever. I, I, I don't know if the developers have put like a field in the, in the profile for that.

Yusef 28:40 They should do.

Chris Williamson 28:41 But yeah, it would make- But you can't get two. But you can't get-

Yusef 28:43 Also, I imagine you should be able to do both.

Chris Williamson 28:44 What?

Yusef 28:44 Why can't you do both?

Chris Williamson 28:45 I don't know- I don't know.

Yusef 28:45 I find that bizarre.

Chris Williamson 28:47 I mean, if you ... The thing is, as well-

Yusef 28:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:48 ... if you do get that and you have two bottoms, nothing happens. It's like two negative polarities on a magnet. Yeah, exactly.

Yusef 28:56 Yeah. It's just pushed apart. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:58 You're trying to push the ... whoop. That's the word.

Yusef 29:00 Yeah. Um. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:01 It's not gonna work. Um, so I think some things that I can think of that you should be careful of if you're a, a girl looking to date a guy, um, especially ... So, let's presume that this is you actually starting to ... like, prospecting with the potential that this might turn into something more as opposed to simply being purely transactional. Like, if it's simply being transactional, make sure that you're safe, obviously.

Yusef 29:25 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:25 Like, do maybe a bit of some form of background checking. If you're going round to the house, tell your friends where you's going (laughs) like, if you're going for the first time.

Yusef 29:32 Taser.

Chris Williamson 29:33 Taser. Yeah, um, pep spray. So sign up with Experian Pro. You can run credit checks on other people- Wow.

Yusef 29:38 This is getting out of control.

Chris Williamson 29:39 ... to see that they're not fucking. (laughs)

Narrator 29:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:40 Not really that fun.

Yusef 29:41 Who let the autist in?

Narrator 29:42 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:44 (laughs) No, d- I, I think that's illegal actually to run a credit check on somebody. (laughs)

Narrator 29:47 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:48 (laughs) Um, so- Just a bad joke, just to clarify. (laughs) To e- con- uh, with regards to that, like, just choose someone you're attracted to basically.

Yusef 29:56 Mm.

Chris Williamson 29:57 Um, but, uh, yeah, if you're looking for a little bit more as a girl, I think a really good question to ask a guy is, "When was your last relationship?" And if they- Do you want it to be recent or not? You just want it to exist.

Yusef 30:10 It's just data, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 30:11 Okay. Like if it- So it's a- If it was, if it was ... I would say if it was within the last month-... or more than the la- more than five years ago.

Yusef 30:20 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 30:20 So, if it was when they're nine, is it, "I held hands with my, with my girlfriend-"

Chris Williamson 30:24 Yeah.

Jonny 30:24 "... at nine years old."

Chris Williamson 30:25 And if it was-

Yusef 30:26 E- eject. Eject.

Jonny 30:26 Eject. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 30:26 And if it was nine hours ago?

Jonny 30:28 Uh, also eject.

Yusef 30:29 Oh, I see.

Chris Williamson 30:29 Both of those. There's a Goldilocks zone in the middle.

Yusef 30:31 Nine and nine.

Chris Williamson 30:31 Yeah.

Yusef 30:32 Older than nine years old-

Chris Williamson 30:33 (laughs)

Yusef 30:33 ... but m- w- l- further, further away than nine hours ago.

Chris Williamson 30:37 Than nine hours ago. There we go, the rule of nine.

Yusef 30:38 There's your sweet spot. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:38 Give you the rule of nine. (laughs)

Yusef 30:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 30:40 Um, so, I think that's... What about you guys? Do you think there's any other things to look out for-

Yusef 30:43 I-

Chris Williamson 30:43 ... red flags with men?

Jonny 30:45 So, the, the, the main thing is, and this goes for both, how do they talk about their ex? And yes, there is a chance that their ex was this massive psycho that, that... But even then, there's a level of tact and class that if someone just downplays it or doesn't tend to go on about it, or if they have any generalizations about women as a whole, if you have someone who, um, it just seems bitter about, about all women, like, that's another-

Chris Williamson 31:14 Like, you read sorts of red pill stuff.

Jonny 31:16 Oh, yeah, particularly. R- r- red, red pill-

Chris Williamson 31:18 If he's got any Rollo Tomassi books.

Jonny 31:20 R- I don't know who that is. But-

Yusef 31:21 I don't know what any of that is.

Jonny 31:22 (laughs)

Yusef 31:22 What's a r- what's a red pill book?

Jonny 31:23 It's a red, red pill.

Yusef 31:24 Who's Rollo, man?

Jonny 31:25 Th- there's, there's two new kind of online movements for people... Is it, is it, uh, three. So you've heard of incels. That was in the news recently. Like-

Chris Williamson 31:31 Involuntary celibates.

Jonny 31:33 People who are c- celibate, but not through their own choice. So they've, they've basically... They're virgins, and they want to not be virgins, but nobody will have sex with them, and so they then funnel that-

Chris Williamson 31:41 Wow.

Jonny 31:42 ... into this bitterness for all women.

Yusef 31:44 Fucking hell.

Jonny 31:44 And then-

Yusef 31:45 What a problem they are.

Jonny 31:46 ... they're the, they're the kind of people that you see the occasional like, um, ambassador of the incels that does like, one of the school shootings and, you know, that, that kind of thing.

Yusef 31:55 Oh, Jesus.

Jonny 31:55 So, it's quite a dark hole.

Chris Williamson 31:56 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 31:57 Red pill is a similar... I, I'm probably, like, if anyone's-

Yusef 32:00 Is this Matrix-related? Red pill, sorry, yeah.

Chris Williamson 32:01 No. So the red, the red, red pill, red pill, as far as, as far as I'm aware is a, um, e- equivalent male opposition to the feminist movement, which puts, uh, kind of m- male values first.

Yusef 32:12 Right.

Chris Williamson 32:12 And it's exactly that. It's taking the red pill instead of taking the blue pill so that you see through the façade of what the games... It's specifically like, games like hypergamy, like female hypergamy, dating up and across, like, things like that. And these guys tend to use pick-apart-as-three strategy, and they have quite, um, militant ideas about how you should deal with, uh, women and stuff like that. Like, Rollo Tomassi's book, The Rational Male, one of the rules that he has in that is never let the f- the woman be in charge of the childbirth. So, it's basically like, if you're not using a condom, you're a fucking idiot.

Jonny 32:48 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 32:49 Um, if you're... Another one of his iron rules, so he's got te- I think it's ten iron rules, one of the iron rules is never live with a woman unless you plan to marry within the next six months. Um, and, uh, a whole bunch of other ones. So, it's quite a, a very, very hard-lined, male-first perspective, which at its core is just protecting men from being hurt by women-

Yusef 33:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:12 ... but actually ends up manifesting itself as men just being really fucking bitter. Like, crazy-

Yusef 33:17 Quite weird.

Chris Williamson 33:18 ... crazy bitter. I mean, if you just, if you want to go and have a read of this, like...

Yusef 33:21 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:22 Uh, Illimitable Man is a pretty good example of this. And in that, there's this dark triad of, um... Have you read this?

Jonny 33:30 Is he the one who wrote the article about monk mode?

Chris Williamson 33:32 Yeah.

Jonny 33:32 So- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:32 Which is fucking great.

Jonny 33:33 So, it's really f- uh, th- basically, it's y- it was this bl- uh, blog post that I think you or George Yeah, I shared it, yeah, yeah. And it's about, like, how to, how to focus in your life, and it was like, "Do monk mode for a few months." So, you know-

Yusef 33:46 Oh, thinking of-

Chris Williamson 33:47 Isolation, intensity.

Yusef 33:48 ... shifting that resonance.

Jonny 33:48 Shut off social media, get-

Chris Williamson 33:49 Yeah, yeah.

Jonny 33:49 It was all about, like, pr- basically productivity tips and-

Chris Williamson 33:51 Yeah.

Jonny 33:52 ... how to, like, really double down.

Chris Williamson 33:53 It was awesome.

Yusef 33:53 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 33:53 And, and it's like, "Oh, great. I wonder what else this guy s- oh, god." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 33:57 Holy fuck. Yeah, you just open up this Pandora's box of like, you need to develop psychopathy, um, like-

Jonny 34:03 Narcissism and-

Chris Williamson 34:04 ... narcissism and-

Jonny 34:05 But this is-

Chris Williamson 34:05 ... something else, the dark triad of like, these things. So anyway, to, to move away from that, like, um, you were saying?

Yusef 34:12 (laughs)

Jonny 34:13 (laughs) Uh, the, oh, so s- the three movements. Yeah, so we have red pill, we have, uh, incels.

Chris Williamson 34:20 Incels.

Jonny 34:20 And there's another one called MGTOW, men going their own way. And I think it's a-

Yusef 34:25 The level of knowledge that you two have about this shit is honestly-

Chris Williamson 34:27 You spend a lot of time on the internet.

Jonny 34:29 It's, yeah, it's, it's Twitter. There, there's a few of these characters on Twitter that-

Yusef 34:32 Right. Fucking-

Jonny 34:32 ... like-

Yusef 34:33 Okay.

Chris Williamson 34:33 You've got time on the internet, man.

Jonny 34:34 Um, and it's, it, I think probably-

Yusef 34:36 So, so to summarize these movements, it's, it's kind of a very-

Chris Williamson 34:39 Man fuckers.

Yusef 34:40 ... extreme masculine movement.

Jonny 34:42 Reactionary, quite, quite woman-hating, um, approach to-

Yusef 34:46 Okay.

Jonny 34:46 So, 'c- 'cause I think-

Yusef 34:48 So, you-

Jonny 34:48 ... there's obviously the-

Yusef 34:49 Presuming you wouldn't find yourself on a date with someone like this anyway.

Chris Williamson 34:51 No, that you, you, you might do, but it would-

Jonny 34:53 I, I don't know how common it is.

Yusef 34:53 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 34:54 It's deff- well, with an incel, like, not, because as soon as that happens...

Jonny 34:58 They've left the house.

Chris Williamson 34:59 Yeah, they're out, they're out.

Yusef 35:00 Right.

Chris Williamson 35:00 So-

Yusef 35:01 That's when things get interesting.

Chris Williamson 35:01 But I just think y- your point there was be careful about (laughs) the sort of blogs that they read and the books that they talk about-

Jonny 35:08 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:08 ... and if they have this kind of overarching woman-hating-

Yusef 35:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:12 ... rhetoric that they put across.

Jonny 35:13 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 35:13 That's pretty dangerous.

Jonny 35:14 And, and the, I suppose the problem is it's not... It, it may be subtle or it may be, it may be overt, but, um, that's-

Yusef 35:21 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 35:21 ... you know, and it may be also directed towards a woman in their life. If they talk about their mother in a bad way or their ex, then-

Chris Williamson 35:29 I like the fact that you've said that there's a degree of class with which you should be speaking about your, your exes.

Jonny 35:33 Oh.

Chris Williamson 35:34 Especially early on-

Jonny 35:35 There's no, there's no upside.

Chris Williamson 35:35 ... as well. Like, if it's, 'cause we're talking before you're in even anything that's seeing someone, like within the first, first few dates where you're speaking to them online or having-

Jonny 35:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:43 ... a phone call or a FaceTime with them or whatever it might be.

Yusef 35:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 35:46 Uh, if one of the openers is, "That fucking bitch." Like if that's uh, if "that fucking bitch" ever comes up, then I think just exit immediately.

Yusef 35:58 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 35:59 Block.

Yusef 35:59 Get out.

Chris Williamson 36:00 Yeah, exactly. Which is also another good thing about Instagram. Just block.

Yusef 36:04 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 36:04 So, the, yeah, there's no upside to talking ill of someone that you're no longer with, but also even if they were terrible, even if they were truly, objectively terrible, and you talk about them neutrally, civilly and respectfully, that can only reflect well on you.

Chris Williamson 36:22 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 36:23 So, ƒ¿¡¿ (cross talk)

Chris Williamson 36:24 Whatever you're signaling to the other person, they're never going to go, "Really fancied him because of how badly he talked about his ex." (laughs)

Jonny 36:29 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:30 And if you're a guy who does have residual feelings about their ex, then use this as a, a, a good canary in the coal mine and just don't, don't mention them. Like if you can't w- like the old adage, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."

Jonny 36:42 Yeah.

Yusef 36:42 'Cause there might be some people, it, it's the whole like, d- does protest too much, but also there might be some people that will be trying to do it to almost like try and prove that, "Oh, no. I'm over her 'cause I hate her." Right?

Chris Williamson 36:52 Mm.

Jonny 36:52 But even then, hate is quite a, is quite a strong emotion, and so you still thinking about somebody ƒ¿?

Chris Williamson 36:57 The absolute ultimate way, and George McGill, uh, tweeted something about this a few months ago, and it was like, "The ultimate way to prove that you've- that you're over somebody is indifference."

Jonny 37:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:08 It's exactly what you want. You want to see them walk by in the street and feel nothing, no bitterness and no happiness. Like just-

Jonny 37:17 Hello.

Yusef 37:18 It's a test to see if you're, you're a rebound as well, isn't it? Like if someone is speaking quite emotively and aggressively about their previous relationship, chances are it's not fully-

Chris Williamson 37:28 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 37:29 ... out the, out the tubes yet. ƒ¿?

Jonny 37:29 'Cause if you are the rebound, you're, you're not ... they're not seeing you for you. They're just seeing you as a-

Yusef 37:33 You're just getting in- in- entangled in a previous relationship.

Jonny 37:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:36 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 37:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:37 I mean, uh, you know, we both or a- all of us know people who appear to just pinball around-

Yusef 37:44 (laughs)

Jonny 37:44 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 37:44 ... from different relationships. Like there's a lot of people-

Jonny 37:46 Pinball. (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:47 Well, that's what it is.

Yusef 37:48 (laughs) It's a great image, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 37:49 There's just, there, there are some people who exist that can't bear to be on their own.

Yusef 37:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 37:55 And I'm aware that I'm jumping in ahead of you here, but the ... this is for guys and girls. There are people for whom they can only feel comfortable in a relationship. Like I remember, so this is a, a story that I can tell. It's like outside of the NDA of relationships, which is a decade.

Jonny 38:13 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:13 So this story is more than 10 years old. Um, so a girl who I'd been with and then-

Jonny 38:18 Is that a thing? The 10-year rule?

Chris Williamson 38:19 I've made it, I've made it up.

Yusef 38:20 It is in Crystalline.

Chris Williamson 38:21 I've made it up. It is in my world. Um-

Yusef 38:23 Crystalline.

Chris Williamson 38:23 Being with, being with a, being with a girl, like, just seeing her on and off, nothing too serious, but anyway, back and forth, back and forth. And, um, we decided that we w- I decided that we were going to end it, uh, and she got a little bit emotional about it. And then got even more emotional and started kind of being a little bit hysterical and said something to the effect of, "I really don't want to break up because I don't want to have to go back to going out all the time." And I was like, "Hang on. What, what ... I don't understand. What do you mean?" And she says, "Well, like, because I'm not with you anymore, I'm going to have to go out all the time." And I was like, "Why?" "Well, because I'm not with anyone." And I was like, "Oh my God. I'm seeing this frantic desire to not be on the- not be on your own play out in front of me."

Jonny 39:10 It's the order ƒ¿?

Chris Williamson 39:10 ... in such an overt way for it to happen.

Jonny 39:13 Mm.

Chris Williamson 39:13 And I'm like, "Wow." Like, that's a very dangerous situation to be in. If, so an alternative to, "When was your last relationship?" I think also a good question to ask would be, "When was the last time you were single?"

Yusef 39:28 Mm.

Chris Williamson 39:28 And if the last time that they were single was for two weeks, two months ago.

Jonny 39:32 Was the longest stretch-

Chris Williamson 39:33 And the last time before that was-

Jonny 39:34 ... that he was single.

Chris Williamson 39:34 Yeah.

Yusef 39:35 Mm.

Chris Williamson 39:35 Um, if you can't bear to be on your own, Daniel Sloss said this in the episode, link will be in the show notes below.

Jonny 39:41 That's a-

Chris Williamson 39:41 Dean will make it appear.

Jonny 39:42 That's a good podcast.

Chris Williamson 39:43 Fucking unbelievable, man. Just crossed 20,000 views.

Jonny 39:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:47 Um, Daniel said like, "If you can't learn to love yourself, how can you expect someone else to love you? And how can you expect to be able to give yourself across to them the best that you can 'cause you don't know who you are?" So there you go. Like, spend some time on your own. And if that person hasn't, then they either will have a, a poorer understanding of their self or they're someone who is pinball ball.

Yusef 40:10 Well, and it just, there's just a lack of in- of in- of independent thinking and way of operating as well. Like, if someone is relying on you for everything on a day-to-day basis, you know, like, "Oh, uh, you've made plans on Friday, but I haven't got plans, so I don't need to do anything." That sort of situation. Like, I, I, I can't think of anything worse, to be honest, than, than-

Chris Williamson 40:30 Well, that's-

Yusef 40:31 ... being in that situation, but-

Chris Williamson 40:32 Mm.

Yusef 40:33 ... I think that can often result from people who have never had to make plans on their own on a Friday 'cause it's always just been stay in and watch Lost or whatever, you know?

Chris Williamson 40:43 It's a dangerous ... That's another dangerous one, man. That's not the same-

Yusef 40:46 Lost.

Jonny 40:46 I agree. It's terrible.

Chris Williamson 40:47 As Lost. Fucking really dangerous.

Yusef 40:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:48 Finished it awfully. It was all a dream.

Jonny 40:50 (laughs) yeah.

Yusef 40:50 Oh, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 40:50 Was it all a dream?

Yusef 40:51 Was it? That was the thing. That was it finishing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:53 It was all just, like, this special heaven place that they'd made to be with each other.

Jonny 40:57 That's such an eight-year-old-

Chris Williamson 40:58 Oh, shut-

Jonny 40:58 ... finishing, finishing a story. And he woke up, and it was all a dream.

Yusef 41:03 And it was all okay. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:04 'Cause the, the thing was with Lost, like it got towards halfway through the final season, and you were like, "Uh, fucking hell, guys." Like there's-

Yusef 41:12 Mm.

Chris Williamson 41:12 ... there's eight hours of programming left and you haven't explained the polar bear. You haven't explained why the plane came down. You haven't explained why everyone that's dead keep coming back. You haven't explained it. You haven't ... And it sure enough, it got to the end and you knew, like, there's just got to be a big answer. There aren't a lot of individual answers here. And the big answer was like, "It was all a dream." (sighs) Like-

Yusef 41:29 So I gave up after the first season.

Chris Williamson 41:31 Well, you've missed nothing. There you go.

Jonny 41:32 Mm.

Chris Williamson 41:32 There's the answer. Um-

Yusef 41:34 It's like Prison Break.

Chris Williamson 41:35 So that's a-

Yusef 41:36 Something like that.

Chris Williamson 41:36 ... a different, a different situation to someone who loves to be in relationships is someone who doesn't want you to be a part of their life, but wants you to be their life.

Yusef 41:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 41:47 And that is a very dangerous partner to get with as well.

Yusef 41:50 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 41:50 Like I mean, actually-

Yusef 41:51 Destructive.

Chris Williamson 41:51 Actually, how the ... How on earth do you find someone who isn't a complete psychopath? See, uh, all that we're doing here is just-

Yusef 42:00 Rue the guy. (laughs)

Jonny 42:01 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 42:01 ... can't be with him and can't be with her, and they don't work, and this one's awful. And you know.

Yusef 42:06 Mm.

Jonny 42:06 So we need white flags as well. Is that the opposite of a red flag?

Yusef 42:09 I think white flag's often seen as surrender.

Chris Williamson 42:11 Surrender.

Yusef 42:12 Green flag.

Jonny 42:13 Oh. Green flag.

Chris Williamson 42:13 Green flag.

Yusef 42:14 Green light.

Jonny 42:15 Good color. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 42:16 So I-

Yusef 42:16 I have some warning points first.

Jonny 42:17 Okay.

Chris Williamson 42:18 Cool.

Yusef 42:18 So I, so this is more just, like, a, a personal frustration is guys who play the, um, "Oh, no, no, no. We're just friends" r- route. And then, so like let's say you're trying to-... get, get with someone, go out to someone, whatever. And that girl has a mate who's a guy who is, like, just there for advice and may be quite critical of you for whatever reason, who then tries to swoop in at the last minute.

Chris Williamson 42:47 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 42:47 I think they are some of the most dangerous-

Chris Williamson 42:49 Insidious ones.

Yusef 42:50 ... because it's straightaway-

Jonny 42:50 It's very vulture-like.

Yusef 42:51 ... they're not up front with their intention.

Chris Williamson 42:53 It's difficult though, right?

Yusef 42:54 So I would, I would watch out for s- personally, I just, I've seen situations that, uh, e- envelope? Un- un-

Chris Williamson 43:03 Unfold?

Yusef 43:04 ... unfold?

Jonny 43:04 Unfold.

Yusef 43:05 That haven't worked out very well. So, it's just based on pers- past experience, I would say, that, you know, if someone wants to be with you in that way, they should just say.

Chris Williamson 43:14 I think it's difficult to, um... like, it's the age-old question of can guys and girls just be friends?

Yusef 43:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 43:20 And you're like, yeah, they can, but if the girl's in a relationship and the guy's not the person she's in a relationship with-

Yusef 43:26 Difficult, isn't it? Some people-

Chris Williamson 43:26 ... it's, you just... what have you opened up there?

Jonny 43:29 Someone's written a list of red flags for women, but I think they're all quite sexist, actually. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 43:35 Okay. (laughs)

Yusef 43:35 Right, let's just-

Jonny 43:36 I think we better skip them.

Chris Williamson 43:37 No, people, more people will hear from.

Yusef 43:38 So, so that was one. Second one was similar to what you said of just ask them how... I'd ask 'em about their mother, 'cause I think the way that... it's just, you know, a woman in the, in the person's life. Like, if they're very caring and speak very fondly of their mother, chances are-

Chris Williamson 43:53 Good to women, generally.

Yusef 43:54 Yeah, chances are. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 43:55 That's a, that's a really, really good test.

Yusef 43:58 Yeah. Well, yeah.

Jonny 44:00 Oh. So, thought of two green flags, then.

Yusef 44:03 No, we still have, we still have, I still have a red flag.

Chris Williamson 44:05 We still need to do red flags for men.

Jonny 44:07 For women.

Yusef 44:09 Do we?

Chris Williamson 44:10 Towards which, in the direction-

Yusef 44:11 Oh, towards women.

Chris Williamson 44:12 Yeah.

Yusef 44:12 Yeah. Um, I would ask them about one or two polarizing topics, ideally in the media at the moment, and just see what they say.

Chris Williamson 44:22 Mm-hmm. Can you give a, an example?

Yusef 44:23 So some- something like, um, like the Liam Neeson thing would be a good example.

Chris Williamson 44:27 Hmm.

Yusef 44:28 So something that i- is, like, you know when people just have, like, a s- clever soundbite to say?

Chris Williamson 44:32 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 44:32 So, like, they'll have a, they'll have a Brexit soundbite that they say, or-

Chris Williamson 44:35 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 44:36 ... um, a Theresa May soundbite. But ask them something that, like, pushes a moral button, and just see what they do. 'Cause I think that's when someone's caught off guard.

Chris Williamson 44:44 How would you analyze that?

Yusef 44:46 Just, "Do you like it or do you not?"

Jonny 44:47 So it's either, "Who's Theresa May?" In which case, run.

Yusef 44:50 Leave.

Chris Williamson 44:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Jonny 44:51 Uh, or-

Yusef 44:52 "What's Brexit?"

Jonny 44:53 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 44:53 (laughs) But, like, you know, but what do you-

Jonny 44:55 Where am I-

Yusef 44:55 "Oh, I've just seen that Liam Neeson thing, what do you think about that?"

Chris Williamson 44:57 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 44:57 And obviously, like, that- that's something where someone will just show their true-

Jonny 45:00 It's not even about their opinion, it's just about can they formulate a-

Yusef 45:03 Yep.

Jonny 45:03 ... uh, uh, something reasonable, and-

Yusef 45:04 I think our-

Chris Williamson 45:05 And, and even if they don't know, can they, with grace, play off the fact that they don't know?

Yusef 45:09 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:09 Like, "Oh, I'm not really into politics, like, but I can tell you a lot about tracking forms."

Yusef 45:14 Or even just-

Jonny 45:14 Formula One. (laughs)

Yusef 45:15 ... even just say, "I don't know. I've not heard about that. What's that?"

Jonny 45:17 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:18 Yeah.

Yusef 45:18 For example.

Chris Williamson 45:19 Yeah.

Yusef 45:19 'Cause a very, a masculine thing is like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I saw that."

Chris Williamson 45:22 "Did- tell me about it."

Yusef 45:24 "Yeah, the Brexit stuff? Yeah. Oh, yeah, I was reading about that."

Jonny 45:26 Or, like, the male answering syndrome, like, "Oh, me? I- I wrote the book on Brexit, man."

Yusef 45:30 "Mm-hmm." (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:30 (laughs)

Yusef 45:31 "I am Brexit, man."

Chris Williamson 45:32 "Brexit? But we went out for drinks, like, three nights ago."

Yusef 45:36 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:36 "It was brother. He's, he's, he's brother, his brother used to play football with me."

Jonny 45:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 45:40 Oh, right. Yeah. Okay. (laughs) Um, so what-

Yusef 45:44 Or show them an Anton Creel clip and see if they react or not.

Chris Williamson 45:46 In which case, marry them immediately.

Yusef 45:47 If it's positive, grab them, hold them.

Jonny 45:49 We were talking about that last week. The, like, embarrassing things you said when you were younger. They're like, "Oh, no, thanks. I've got 12 ounces at home." 12 ounces? No you haven't.

Chris Williamson 45:59 We weren't talking about that on this.

Jonny 46:00 Oh.

Yusef 46:00 No. We were you talking to yourself?

Jonny 46:02 It was, it was the life fails most re... anyway, um-

Chris Williamson 46:06 So, um, I wanted to... what about, what should guys look out for, red flags in, in women?

Yusef 46:12 Okay.

Chris Williamson 46:12 And now we're, we're straying into slightly more dangerous territory-

Jonny 46:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:15 ... but it's territory that I am incredibly familiar with, so watch me tiptoe with finesse through the minefield.

Yusef 46:22 (laughs) I think I know what skills

Narrator 46:24 You see.

Yusef 46:24 I think, I think you and I will probably say similar things.

Chris Williamson 46:26 Okay.

Yusef 46:26 I'm excited to see.

Jonny 46:27 HDM.

Chris Williamson 46:27 So just as a, as a disclaimer here-

Yusef 46:30 Yeah.

Jonny 46:30 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 46:30 As a disclaimer, like, you two are fairly successfully, um, like, continuously monogamous people, right?

Yusef 46:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:41 Like, you're in relationships-

Jonny 46:43 I think you see me as continuously monogamous, but in the last 15 years, I've been in a relationship for s- five of them.

Chris Williamson 46:50 Right, but in the last seven years?

Jonny 46:53 Last seven years, uh, in, yeah, a relationship for five, six of them.

Chris Williamson 46:58 (laughs)

Yusef 46:58 So you are-

Jonny 46:58 Sixteen-

Chris Williamson 46:58 How have you, how have you been in a relationship for six of seven but on the five of 15?

Yusef 47:03 He's just, he's just picked the time frame.

Chris Williamson 47:05 (laughs)

Jonny 47:05 No, sorry, hang on. Se- six-

Chris Williamson 47:07 (laughs) You can't-

Jonny 47:07 Seven... s- seven of fif- no, oh, God.

Yusef 47:10 Don't worry. It's not five of them.

Chris Williamson 47:12 (laughs)

Yusef 47:12 He's just saying... so currently, you're in a successful relationship.

Chris Williamson 47:16 You're a serial mo-

Yusef 47:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:17 You both serial monogamists.

Yusef 47:18 Uh, okay.

Chris Williamson 47:18 To one degree or another.

Yusef 47:19 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:19 Now me, so background, four girlfriends took up from 18 to 25, and the longest period I was single was four months.

Yusef 47:28 Right. And then?

Chris Williamson 47:30 So w- just, no, and then another three-year relationship after that.

Yusef 47:32 Oh, right.

Chris Williamson 47:33 But the vast majority of my life up to now has been with me being in a relationship.

Yusef 47:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 47:38 Just s- you know.

Yusef 47:40 For, for me-

Jonny 47:40 Four and a half of the last seven.

Chris Williamson 47:42 (laughs)

Yusef 47:42 God.

Narrator 47:42 Fucking hell.

Yusef 47:43 That's it.

Narrator 47:43 For, for me, I- I've, I've never... this is gonna sound arrogant, but I don't, I've never, like, ended a relationship and then sought the next one.

Yusef 47:51 Mm-hmm.

Narrator 47:51 Things just tend to fall into place.

Chris Williamson 47:53 You are successfully serially monogus- monogamous though-

Yusef 47:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:56 ... as far as I can see.

Yusef 47:57 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 47:57 Anyway, so what, what will you, what do you think?

Yusef 48:00 Red flags?

Chris Williamson 48:01 Yeah.

Jonny 48:02 (laughs)

Yusef 48:04 Christ. So-

Jonny 48:05 I love dropping us in it.

Yusef 48:06 Okay, so I- I think the most important thing is emotional stability. Like, without question, the most important thing.

Chris Williamson 48:15 How would you judge that?

Yusef 48:16 So very difficult to judge. So the reason I say that is inevitably, you're gonna end up in an argument or a discussion or disagreement over something.

Chris Williamson 48:25 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 48:25 And if that can be managed as a, uh, in a, in a sensible adult conversation, chances are it'll last an hour and then go away again. If that becomes, like, well, like, "Fuck you, I'm taking your car," and "I'm-"

Chris Williamson 48:38 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 48:38 Or, you know, like, "This is over." And-

Chris Williamson 48:40 "I'm leaving."

Yusef 48:40 Suddenly it spirals into something massive. So emotional stability is a, is a big one. In terms of how you assess that-... apart from-

Chris Williamson 48:48 Especially early on as well, right? Because-

Yusef 48:49 Apart from just by feel, I suppose.

Chris Williamson 48:51 What's the, like ... breasts. (laughs) Yeah, feel the- (laughs)

Jonny 48:57 Oh, I see. What, how, how do you-

Chris Williamson 48:58 Is there an outward kind of, is it if they're-

Jonny 49:01 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 49:01 ... firmer and higher.

Jonny 49:02 Oh, see. (laughs) No.

Chris Williamson 49:05 So, I mean, what was that thing you said in one of the podcasts, Yusuf, where you were like, um, "It's really easy to convince anyone for 20 minutes that you're not a psychopath." Yeah, so- So like early on in a relationship, anyone can convince anyone that they're not an emotional wreck and it's gonna kick off.

Jonny 49:17 Which is why I think, I think job interviews are a terrible way to assess somebody because of exactly that reason.

Chris Williamson 49:23 Yeah.

Jonny 49:24 Um, if anything, if you are a psychopath, you're the best at maintaining that Um, I would disagree with the emotional stability thing though.

Chris Williamson 49:32 Okay.

Jonny 49:33 So, it, it's definitely my preference, and I think it's your preference.

Chris Williamson 49:36 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 49:37 Um, David Deida talks a lot about sexual polarity and, um-

Chris Williamson 49:42 The masculine energy-

Jonny 49:43 ... masculine and feminine energy.

Chris Williamson 49:44 ... and the feminine energy.

Jonny 49:44 And saying that if you are a true shivite third stage man, you should be like fully navigating the fields of having a, a woman who's like really emotionally labile and being able to ride those waves and-

Chris Williamson 49:55 Okay.

Jonny 49:56 ... and fully, like, enjoy in saying that the more, um, the more of that there is, like, the more it tests you as a, as a masculine spirit, and it helps you to, to grow and, and to, like, uh, allow, allow your relationship to flourish through that. Um, I think-

Chris Williamson 50:11 Which is quite, quite trying.

Jonny 50:12 Yeah, I, I think I'm just not zen, I'm not zen enough for that.

Chris Williamson 50:15 I'm not on board with David with regards to that. I don't think anyone is either.

Yusef 50:17 It seems, it sounds like an unnecessary situation to be in.

Chris Williamson 50:21 Johnny, Johnny, do you want me to tell you about the best analogy that I came up with in the sauna the other day with Yusuf?

Yusef 50:27 (laughs) Come on then.

Chris Williamson 50:28 So, the emotional instability thing that you've just said there-

Yusef 50:32 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 50:32 ... is exactly the same. It's so good. It's, you can imagine that-

Jonny 50:38 So th- this is like the analogy for having, like, you have like a normal discussion or you come to a, a conclusion for something, but there's all this turmoil and argument in the meantime that was just totally unnecessary just to come to a decision that ...

Chris Williamson 50:55 So what, input is what are we doing tonight? Output is let's meet at 8:30. But in between that, there is this crazy back and forth and emotional turmoil and fighting and all the rest of it.

Yusef 51:08 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 51:09 Is exactly the same as you putting a trade on and-

Jonny 51:14 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 51:15 ... and the market dropping by 50% for it to bounce all over the place and finish 1% up in the green.

Jonny 51:22 (laughs)

Yusef 51:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:24 And you're like, "What the fuck was that?"

Yusef 51:27 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 51:27 "What was this bit here?"

Yusef 51:29 And you've got to manage how you feel about all the-

Chris Williamson 51:31 All of the emotion, all of the-

Yusef 51:32 ... all of the bullshit.

Jonny 51:33 And don't trigger your stop loss 'cause if you do, then-

Chris Williamson 51:34 If you trigger your stop loss, the, the relationship's over. It's exact... And I, I will challenge anyone out there to tell me that's not exactly the same.

Jonny 51:41 Exactly like that.

Yusef 51:41 It all just comes back to Chris Kathy.

Chris Williamson 51:43 (laughs) Great trade.

Yusef 51:45 You know? Fundamental. You know the emotions.

Chris Williamson 51:47 (laughs)

Yusef 51:48 And you trade 'em. I saw him in Caffe Nero.

Chris Williamson 51:50 I know, Yusuf told me.

Yusef 51:51 And that's when-

Chris Williamson 51:51 You wouldn't go, you wouldn't go to him on a free day.

Yusef 51:53 I saw him running. Jogging.

Jonny 51:55 Oh, really?

Chris Williamson 51:55 Jogging. So-

Yusef 51:57 Just like that.

Chris Williamson 51:57 Um ... (laughs) Yeah.

Yusef 51:59 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 52:00 Uh, right, we're talking about people. The, the listeners don't know who we're on about now.

Yusef 52:03 So, okay, so, um, so emotional stability just allows for efficient outcomes.

Chris Williamson 52:09 I agree.

Yusef 52:09 We, we-

Jonny 52:09 There was a second thing as well, wasn't there?

Chris Williamson 52:11 That was the first one.

Yusef 52:12 No.

Jonny 52:13 You said there was two things, emotional stability and-

Yusef 52:15 I don't know.

Jonny 52:15 Maybe, maybe that was the-

Chris Williamson 52:16 Anyway, what, what about you?

Yusef 52:18 Weird.

Jonny 52:19 So, for ... I don't have any red flags for women. Uh-

Chris Williamson 52:24 You can't think of anything-

Jonny 52:26 I think-

Chris Williamson 52:26 ... bad that a woman could be-

Jonny 52:28 Give me some time to-

Chris Williamson 52:29 ... that you shouldn't.

Jonny 52:29 'Cause I, it's because, because I've just-

Chris Williamson 52:31 That's all right.

Jonny 52:31 ... seen that list, and I'm trying to not say anything on that list.

Yusef 52:33 (laughs)

Jonny 52:33 Um, so-

Chris Williamson 52:34 Okay. Well, I mean, so for, for me, the, again, the main ones for men also occur for women. Like, do they have a life outside of their partner?

Yusef 52:43 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:43 Do they have their own interests, their own friend group? Are they able to be independent? Do they demand your time over activities that they know you really value? Like, if you're saying-

Jonny 52:54 Okay.

Chris Williamson 52:54 ... "Oh, no, I can't see you tonight, I've got to play video games," then that's probably not tremendously justifiable. If it's, "No, I can't see you tonight, I've got training for this upcoming weightlifting competition," or, "I've got football with my friends that I only do once a week," or, "I've got to see my parents," or, "I've got to do something else," which they know is of genuine value to you-

Yusef 53:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:16 ... and that is the sort of thing, especially because we're talking now about the, as my mum and dad would call it, the courting stage-

Yusef 53:23 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 53:24 ... in which the leveraging of all trades is at zero. Like, there's no magnification. There shouldn't be any, um, overreaction really to anything, because there's no justification on either side yet.

Jonny 53:40 So, yeah, you, you have to have more sensitivity-

Chris Williamson 53:43 Like, we're just, we're not even-

Jonny 53:43 ... to the smaller changes early on.

Chris Williamson 53:45 The ripples.

Jonny 53:45 Because people are on their best behavior, and so you've got to then be more tuned in to that going on.

Chris Williamson 53:50 Absolutely.

Jonny 53:51 I, I definitely agree, like, you, if they don't have your best interests at heart, and if you don't have theirs at heart, then that's immediately a sense that, you know, even on a minor level, you think, you might think, "Oh, well, that's within my tolerance. Fine, I'll leave it." But actually, it could mean that when things are magnified after they take off the mask-

Yusef 54:09 Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

Jonny 54:09 ... that they're much more vindictive, and that they're actually willing to trample on you for-

Chris Williamson 54:14 You need to wa- you need to watch for these things super carefully, espe- especially early on.

Yusef 54:17 What about stuff like, um, you know, people stress a lot about how often to message, how fast to reply-

Jonny 54:25 Uh. (laughs)

Yusef 54:26 ... after, after a meeting, who, who messages first.

Jonny 54:28 I think that, that is such a waste of mental space.

Yusef 54:31 I, so I agree.

Jonny 54:32 Such a waste.

Yusef 54:32 But if you feel like someone's doing that-

Chris Williamson 54:34 Doesn't get around the fact that it is actually a little bit of a nuanced point, and it is, to a degree, quite important, because-

Jonny 54:43 Well, the frequency of reply and stuff.

Chris Williamson 54:45 And, and who actually is the-

Yusef 54:46 Just conduct in that phase.

Chris Williamson 54:46 Who's the pro- who's the protagonist in it because-The, one of the main things, there is a l- a video from School of Life, Alain de Botton again, he's just the king of these little aphorism, kind of maximy type things. And, um, he talks about why we hate people, or why we're, why we're unattracted to people who like us, and it's because it feeds in ... Someone who is aloof naturally gives themselves some sense of being above and beyond and out of our reach, which naturally we push towards. Like, if someone, if you put your hand on someone's chest and you push, their natural reaction is to lean into you. So, that's exactly what happens. As someone pushes harder, you, you tend to push back harder against them, because you kind of don't really like what's going on.

Jonny 55:32 Mm-hmm. Unless they're a judo master and they can just like-

Chris Williamson 55:34 Yeah, they're just taekwondo you to the floor.

Jonny 55:36 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:37 Yeah. Um, so yeah. I think ... So that's why I like the, "I'm not gonna reply 'cause if I reply now then I seem-"

Jonny 55:44 I don't want to seem too keen.

Chris Williamson 55:45 Too keen.

Jonny 55:45 Or desperate. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:46 But the, the worst thing as well is that that ... I, I know for a fact that that has been a turnoff for me with girls. Like, girls who are not un-keen enough, which isn't the same as being too keen.

Jonny 55:58 Not un-keen enough. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:01 They're insufficiently un-keen.

Jonny 56:02 They're insufficiently aloof.

Chris Williamson 56:03 Yes.

Yusef 56:03 So, they're keen.

Chris Williamson 56:04 No.

Jonny 56:05 Which is the difference. (laughs) The- th- th- they're not aloof enough. They're not, um-

Chris Williamson 56:08 Oh, right.

Jonny 56:09 Now-

Chris Williamson 56:09 Insufficient. No. Got it. Got it. So if you want to make-

Yusef 56:11 They're too keen.

Jonny 56:11 (laughs) They're not. (laughs)

Yusef 56:13 They're too keen. They are, Chris.

Jonny 56:14 But yeah, there, there, they're too keen. Yes. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:16 That's what you're, you're presuming there's a spectrum and it's a single-

Yusef 56:19 Oh.

Chris Williamson 56:19 ... just a single linear ... (slaps hands)

Jonny 56:21 No. The-

Yusef 56:22 Not keen. Keen.

Jonny 56:23 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:23 Well, that-

Yusef 56:23 And you're saying they're not far enough over this direction.

Jonny 56:26 Yes.

Chris Williamson 56:26 All of our-

Yusef 56:27 (laughs)

Jonny 56:27 I think you're over-complicating it.

Yusef 56:29 Okay.

Chris Williamson 56:29 It, it is true. However, I, the, the problem is, and the reason I'm saying it's a waste of mental space is that as soon as you even start second-guessing your own like, "Oh, well, maybe I shouldn't reply. Oh, that ..." Then you're being keen again because you're trying too hard. It- it's the same as why like the whole pickup artistry thing only works for a short period of time until people realize, "Actually, this is just a really desperate guy that's tried to, like, micromanage all of his little social interactions." I, I, I disagree.

Jonny 56:57 Okay.

Chris Williamson 56:57 Because-

Jonny 56:58 Because if they truly didn't care, they'd just reply as in when they saw their phone, which is-

Chris Williamson 57:02 But the, the pickup artistry, the pickup artistry thing is you changing the core of who you are as a person. What I think, and again, this comes back to the reason for using the Instagram funnel-

Jonny 57:11 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 57:11 ... is that you are wanting to get people over the hump of that very first bit. I-

Jonny 57:18 To convince them that you're not mental.

Chris Williamson 57:19 Yeah. And I think that a lot of people would ... There would be a lot more good short relationships if everybody was presenting themselves in the best light. I think a lot of people make a lot of really basic fuck-ups. Like, and that's not to say that I don't. I, but ... A lot-

Jonny 57:38 So are you advocating that they are inauthentic with the way that they-

Chris Williamson 57:41 No, no. I think that what you need to do is just retrain yourself to be not mental and not too keen. Like, if your response rate is within seconds all the time, and you quadruple message all the time, you have to concede the fact that for some people, that will be a turnoff. You also have to concede the fact that if you don't message sufficiently frequently, it will be a turnoff. But I think that there inevitably, as with everything, the virtuous mean, there is something in the middle.

Yusef 58:10 So it's the same way as you would go to a job interview wearing a shirt and tie even though you don't necessarily want to because it's about signaling to that person that you're of a certain order and type.

Jonny 58:19 I see. But if you wear a tux, it's like-

Chris Williamson 58:21 "What the fuck are you doing?" If you go in joggers-

Jonny 58:23 I see.

Yusef 58:23 So, so have a-

Jonny 58:25 (laughs)

Yusef 58:25 Have a, just have a rule with yourself then. Do you know what ... Do, do, do you agree or not?

Jonny 58:30 As in, like, I reply after-

Yusef 58:31 So like, after, after the first date, I'll reply after 36 hours or whatever. And then you just don't think about it because I think people get stressed because they're, they think something and then they second-guess what they thought and then they second-guess that.

Chris Williamson 58:43 The worst thing, the worst-

Jonny 58:44 This is the thing, I think, that needs to be avoided.

Chris Williamson 58:45 Mm-hmm. So one thing that actually has occurred due to the advent of WhatsApp and other instant messaging services like that, is that back in the day-

Jonny 58:55 You can see when people have read.

Chris Williamson 58:56 But back in the day, texting would have been ... There's always this culpable deniability about, "Oh, I didn't read it yet."

Yusef 59:02 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 59:02 And it's like, "Fuck off, mate." Like, "I've seen you come on and offline 20 times."

Yusef 59:07 I remember having a conversa- it was, might have been with you when they, when they released the blue ticks on WhatsApp of like, this is gonna cause problems.

Jonny 59:14 Oh.

Chris Williamson 59:14 Yeah.

Yusef 59:14 This is gonna cause arguments.

Chris Williamson 59:16 Real turbulent.

Jonny 59:16 (laughs)

Yusef 59:16 'Cause you used to be able to turn read receipts off on iMessage or have them on.

Chris Williamson 59:21 Do you remember when ... You might have never had Snapchat. Oh, you, you do have Snapchat. Do you remember when you used to have top friends on Snapchat?

Yusef 59:27 Mm-hmm.

Jonny 59:27 Oh, yeah. People would really fall out, like they'd put kids with ... Oh.

Chris Williamson 59:29 Can you imagine how many relationships that's rumbled?

Jonny 59:32 Because Snapchat particularly is, like-

Chris Williamson 59:37 Where you get like a-

Jonny 59:37 I guess, it's sending photos, isn't it?

Chris Williamson 59:38 ... a score, don't you, or a little streak. Yeah. But it certainly-

Jonny 59:41 With a fire, a flame.

Chris Williamson 59:43 Excuse me, yeah. So like, if you see that someone's got, um, that with whatever person-

Jonny 59:48 Someone else then-

Chris Williamson 59:49 That doesn't exist anymore, so you're safe. Um, have you come up with anything, any red-

Yusef 59:53 What, what were you saying? Oh, yeah. So, so I, I bet e- e- in your examples when you're saying someone's too keen.

Chris Williamson 59:59 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 59:59 Not, s- insufficiently-

Chris Williamson 1:00:01 Un-keen.

Yusef 1:00:01 ... un-keen.

Chris Williamson 1:00:02 Yeah.

Yusef 1:00:02 Um, that they, they probably just do it without thinking. And even if they're not, even if the, that doesn't truly represent them, they just, they've done something like, "Oh, sorry."

Chris Williamson 1:00:14 I think one of the ... Especially now that the response rate is less of a concern or a less of a major factor because of the advent of instant messaging, the content is. Like if it's, "What are you doing tonight? When are we going out next?"

Yusef 1:00:32 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:00:32 Like, you can, you can talk quite freely backwards and forwards and keep it casual.

Yusef 1:00:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:37 You can also talk quite fr- I think sarcasm and a little bit of kind of jibing is a good tactic to be able to keep everything playful.

Yusef 1:00:45 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:45 Not only does it stop you from falling too deep into the, like, falling in, uh-... early stages of love for someone who you've only met a few times.

Jonny 1:00:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 1:00:53 It also kind of, it's that playful territory that, like, you can't have that ... Once you've been with someone for, like, six months, you can't gib them about not really being that bothered about, like-

Jonny 1:01:05 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:05 Do you know what I mean? Like, "F- fuck off, mate."

Yusef 1:01:06 Yeah.

Jonny 1:01:06 It also probes-

Chris Williamson 1:01:07 "I've seen your bumhole."

Yusef 1:01:07 Boring. (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:09 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:09 (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:10 It, it probes whether they would, um-

Yusef 1:01:11 Change everything. (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:12 ... whether they can take a joke as well. And, and that's it. So, so I think for me, the red flags are, yeah, can they take a joke? Are they ... Have they got a sense of humor? 'Cause I think that pre-frames a lot of other things, a lot of character traits as well.

Chris Williamson 1:01:25 What are those, like, what-

Jonny 1:01:25 Like, if someone can't laugh, then there's a lot of other things wrong with them.

Chris Williamson 1:01:28 It's like pre-screening for particular-

Jonny 1:01:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:01:32 ... down-stream genetic diseases and stuff like that-

Jonny 1:01:34 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:34 ... isn't it?

Jonny 1:01:34 Genetic diseases. (laughs)

Yusef 1:01:35 Just A and E, isn't it?

Jonny 1:01:36 D-

Yusef 1:01:36 Just triage.

Jonny 1:01:38 (laughs) It's like ... That's, that's like the blood pressure measurement.

Yusef 1:01:40 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:01:40 (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:41 Um, so take their blood pressure.

Yusef 1:01:42 What are your symptoms? What else are you experiencing?

Jonny 1:01:44 Take, take their heart rate, take their spiritual-

Chris Williamson 1:01:45 Was it a normal masturbation?

Yusef 1:01:46 (laughs)

Jonny 1:01:47 Yeah. Um, so then you want to do a skin swab.

Chris Williamson 1:01:53 Oh, God.

Jonny 1:01:54 Uh, a-

Yusef 1:01:54 A skin swab?

Jonny 1:01:54 A urine dipstick. Um, do a stool sample on them. No, so the-

Chris Williamson 1:01:58 If you made it to stool sample, that person's a keeper.

Jonny 1:02:00 Well, yeah. If someone's-

Yusef 1:02:01 You, you've, you've seen their bumhole.

Jonny 1:02:02 "Listen, I've got to screen with you at the moment. I've just got a few tests, just for, you know, m- peace of mind."

Yusef 1:02:07 (laughs)

Jonny 1:02:08 "Um, if you could just poo in this-"

Yusef 1:02:09 (laughs)

Jonny 1:02:09 "... and then I'm just gonna wrap this, uh, cuff around your arm, right?"

Chris Williamson 1:02:14 While they're pooing.

Jonny 1:02:14 While they're pooing, yeah, and just screen ... So there's the laughing test. The ... Also, like, do they just laugh at stupid things?

Chris Williamson 1:02:23 Mm.

Jonny 1:02:23 Like, um, if you do a puff-puff, do they, do they find it funny?

Yusef 1:02:27 Do they call you names?

Chris Williamson 1:02:28 I'm, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hold my hand in the air here. I have never been ... And this may speak to the degree or the depth of relationships I've been in. Never been in a relationship where I've been comfortable to fart in bed with people.

Jonny 1:02:38 Same. I think it's, I think it's a cruel thing to do to someone, if you're in bed as well, to Dutch oven them. But-

Chris Williamson 1:02:43 Mm.

Yusef 1:02:44 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 1:02:44 Dutch oven's lethal.

Jonny 1:02:45 It's really bad. (laughs) So-

Chris Williamson 1:02:47 And so I just ... I don't, I'm not sure that's a l- that's a comfort thing. I think that ... Like, in the same way that, like, I, I, I wouldn't just slap Yosef for no reason.

Jonny 1:02:54 'Cause it's, 'cause it's an assault on someone to, to do a puff-puff.

Chris Williamson 1:02:56 Yeah. (laughs)

Yusef 1:02:56 Like, it's ... What do you do? 'Cause you're in a long-term relationship now, and you live, live with someone. How do I navigate flatulence?

Chris Williamson 1:03:02 Yes.

Yusef 1:03:03 So, it's not something that I really think about. I don't think I have that much room.

Jonny 1:03:08 Really? So the trick I've heard is you go into ... This is if you're on a date.

Chris Williamson 1:03:12 Oh, right.

Jonny 1:03:12 You go into the bathroom, and you get your bum above your head. So you make sure your head's lower than your bum, so the air ... 'Cause the air is gonna rise over the liquid, and so then you percolate the puff-puffs, and that'll just-

Chris Williamson 1:03:23 Over the liquid?

Jonny 1:03:23 O- over, well, any other s- anyth- anything else in your bowel, so that you can then get it out quickly. But the problem is, a lot of the time people say, "Well, by the time I've walked to the bathroom, it's gone (imitates fast-forward sound) and it's basically up there."

Chris Williamson 1:03:34 (laughs)

Jonny 1:03:34 And you're like-

Chris Williamson 1:03:35 You're a burper-farter.

Jonny 1:03:35 Yeah, you're like, "Now I can't get it down again."

Chris Williamson 1:03:37 So you ... Hold on, you, you need to fart, you go to the toilet, and for some reason-

Jonny 1:03:40 You, you invert yourself.

Yusef 1:03:41 Why can't, why don't you just go to the toilet and fart?

Jonny 1:03:43 Yeah, no, 'cause you have to be in hip flexion as well.

Yusef 1:03:45 To fart.

Jonny 1:03:46 Well, no, it ... Do- just to accelerate, 'cause you don't want to be in there for 20 minutes trying to, like-

Yusef 1:03:50 Crack this fart out.

Jonny 1:03:50 Yeah, you, you just, you wanna be, you know-

Yusef 1:03:52 Oh, okay.

Jonny 1:03:52 'Cause otherwise they'll be like, "Oh, well, he's, he's gone for a poo," and then it, then you have to go, "I wasn't, I wasn't pooing, I, well, I was g-"

Yusef 1:03:57 Why don't you just go-

Chris Williamson 1:03:58 "I wasn't pooing, I was just farting." That's-

Yusef 1:04:00 Go in, sit on the toilet, and just contract as hard as you can. Something will come out.

Jonny 1:04:04 No, because-

Yusef 1:04:04 If you do a bit of poo, great. Buy one, get one free.

Jonny 1:04:07 I, I don't ... No, 'cause I think if you, if you, if you try and poo when you don't need to-

Yusef 1:04:10 When you don't have a shattafa.

Jonny 1:04:12 When you don't have a shattafa, really good.

Yusef 1:04:13 (laughs) Bless you. Bless you.

Jonny 1:04:14 Um, then, (laughs) then you're gonna, you're gonna end up with-

Yusef 1:04:17 No tissues.

Jonny 1:04:17 ... a half one, and it's a problem.

Yusef 1:04:19 (laughs)

Jonny 1:04:19 Anyway, the, the second green flag or red flag is-

Yusef 1:04:24 (laughs) Before we go- Well, no, which is it? Don't say green flag or red flag, then say something, 'cause-

Jonny 1:04:29 Well, you'll, you'll see-

Chris Williamson 1:04:29 Imagine if the guy that was waving the plane in did that. Like, one's green and one's red.

Yusef 1:04:35 One just says, "Stop." (imitates engine revving)

Jonny 1:04:36 Yeah.

Yusef 1:04:36 Trouble.

Jonny 1:04:37 Like, li- listen to the flag and you'll under- you'll both understand why it's, can be both.

Yusef 1:04:40 Okay.

Jonny 1:04:41 So how they treat the waiter. Again, this is a minor variance that will, over time, widen and ... So it, it'll eventually leverage and you'll be able to see. So do they treat the waiter rudely or nicely?

Chris Williamson 1:04:58 Same for taxi driver, bus driver.

Jonny 1:05:00 Yeah, an-

Chris Williamson 1:05:00 Train conductor.

Jonny 1:05:01 So it's, so anyone that they don't have anything to gain from and that they're ... you know. Are they generally civil and respectful to other human beings?

Yusef 1:05:08 Do they say waiter?

Jonny 1:05:09 Do they say waiter?

Yusef 1:05:10 Or waiter?

Jonny 1:05:10 Excuse me, or do they call them garcon or, like-

Chris Williamson 1:05:13 Oh, yeah.

Jonny 1:05:13 ... hip.

Chris Williamson 1:05:14 If they (snaps fingers) .

Yusef 1:05:16 Oh!

Jonny 1:05:16 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:05:16 If they do a, if they do a double clap.

Jonny 1:05:17 I don't think I've ever seen someone do that, but that's, yeah, that's a very-

Yusef 1:05:20 What about attitude to tipping?

Jonny 1:05:22 Oh, so-

Chris Williamson 1:05:22 No, not at all. Not at all. Fiscal policy isn't, isn't included at this stage.

Yusef 1:05:26 (laughs)

Jonny 1:05:26 Yeah. So, so with, with paying for a meal, I wi- I will always pay on the first date. If, it's if they offer to split. I'll always say, "No, no."

Chris Williamson 1:05:36 What if you steal?

Jonny 1:05:37 If I st- Well, if they offer and I'm going, "All right."

Chris Williamson 1:05:38 If they split it ... No, if they split and you steal, then, then you take it all, don't you?

Yusef 1:05:42 Then you find yourself in the game Prisoner's Dilemma.

Jonny 1:05:44 Oh, I see. That, that, that, that's when it-

Yusef 1:05:44 It then becomes game theory.

Jonny 1:05:45 That's when you say, "Can I go to the toilet?" And then you run.

Chris Williamson 1:05:47 Yeah, you leave.

Jonny 1:05:47 And then you've got a free meal.

Chris Williamson 1:05:48 Out the window.

Jonny 1:05:49 Yeah. Um, so if-

Yusef 1:05:50 (laughs)

Jonny 1:05:51 So, so, so if they, if they offer to. And interestingly, there's a, there's a dating coach for women that did a video on this, and he said-

Yusef 1:05:58 He was really famous. I saw it.

Jonny 1:05:59 Yeah, it r- it went viral. He was like ... Have you seen this?

Chris Williamson 1:06:01 No.

Jonny 1:06:01 Where he's like, "All right, ladies." And he's in a room with, like, 250 women. "Who thinks the man should pay-"

Chris Williamson 1:06:07 Pretty much every hand goes up.

Jonny 1:06:08 "... on the first date?" Everyone puts their hand up and he's like, "Okay, and who thinks that you are obliged to sleep with the man, um, whenever and however he wants?" No one puts their hand up. And he's like, "Well, that doesn't match up, because what you're saying is that your time is worth le- is worth more than his, and that he should have to pay for it. And then you've instantly set an unequal basis for the relationship."

Yusef 1:06:31 But one is, one is having sex with someone.

Jonny 1:06:34 Yeah.

Yusef 1:06:35 And that ... I, I see what he's getting at. I see what he's getting at.

Jonny 1:06:37 So, but he, he was implying that, like, what you're all doing is like ... Prostitutes do that. They say their time is worth more than th- And so-

Yusef 1:06:43 I see.

Jonny 1:06:43 ... he's like, "Unless you put yourself on equal footing with the man from the beginning, then you are ..." So-

Yusef 1:06:48 I think ... So for m- for me personally, I'll ... As a man, I will always at the first meal tend to be like f-I'll, I'll get this, don't worry.

Chris Williamson 1:06:56 I got, I got this.

Yusef 1:06:57 But if that ... I, I know for a fact, in my heart of hearts, if that girl forcibly said, essentially, "There's fucking no way that's happening, take half of my money," I'd be like ...

Chris Williamson 1:07:07 Hmm, it's great.

Jonny 1:07:08 Awesome.

Chris Williamson 1:07:09 The harder someone pushes them, the brilliant. Yeah, brilliant.

Yusef 1:07:11 Mm-hmm, but as long as it's not-

Jonny 1:07:12 It's not just fiscal policy with things like that. It's like, if it was, um-

Chris Williamson 1:07:17 What kind of issue.

Jonny 1:07:18 ... who's gonna drive, who's gonna do whatever. Like, there's a, uh, just having a girl ... I find it, like, incredibly attractive to have a girl who's very forthcoming about these sort of things. Like, it's the same reason, I think, why female athletes tend to be attractive to a particular kind of man, because you're like, "Well, I know that there is a very, sort of protagonistic, um, independent, forward-minded, mentum kind of-

Chris Williamson 1:07:44 Mm-hmm.

Yusef 1:07:46 ... uh, theme to what this, woman is demonstrating.

Chris Williamson 1:07:49 What I think might be interesting-

Jonny 1:07:50 I think it's not about the money, it's about the, the attitude. Do they see you as an equal?

Yusef 1:07:54 Mm-hmm. And do they have the command to be able to?

Jonny 1:07:58 Yeah.

Yusef 1:07:59 Okay.

Jonny 1:08:00 So-

Chris Williamson 1:08:01 So the way they treat the ǀᵘwētā.

Jonny 1:08:02 The ǀᵈᵣwētā, or the-

Chris Williamson 1:08:03 Or the ǀᵈᵣsō.

Jonny 1:08:04 ... whether they choose to split or steal, and then the, the puff-puff thing, what was that?

Yusef 1:08:09 You said the puff-puff thing.

Jonny 1:08:10 Yeah.

Yusef 1:08:10 You said it.

Jonny 1:08:11 It was a third one. Anyway, there is also the, the old story, the old adage about the guy that was, um, talking to a couple of guys in the pub, and he was like, "Oh mate, I'm, I'm a behavioral psychologist. I can, I can tell a lot about you from a single thing." He turns to the first guy, and he's like, "Tell me, do you have a goldfish?" And the guy's like, "Yeah." And he goes, "Oh, well, okay, so you've got a goldfish. That means you live in a relatively stable house. That means you've probably got a, a dog as well, so you've got a pet, you've demonstrated that." "Right." "And that means you're probably married, and that means ... and you're young, and so you probably haven't got kids, you've probably got quite an active sex life, and so you don't masturbate." The guy's like, "Whoa."

Yusef 1:08:58 (laughs)

Jonny 1:08:59 Like, "You actually tell so much from that." He turns to the other guy, he says, "Have you got