Modern WisdomHow to Break Free From Chronic Anxiety - Martha Beck
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
105 min read · 21,301 words- 0:00 – 5:33
Anxiety Always Lies
- CWChris Williamson
You say, "Anxiety always lies."
- MBMartha Beck
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
Always. Why?
- MBMartha Beck
I say that at the end of the book. (laughs) And then-
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, spoiler alert. Sorry about that.
- MBMartha Beck
And then, boom! Come at me with the biggest tr- no, here's the thing. We have brains that are very prone to anxiety, and we have a culture that magnifies our proneness to anxiety. But anxiety, unlike fear, which is a very, uh, uh, a response, a visceral response to a danger that is present in the physical moment. There's a, a surge of adrenaline, a surge of activity, and then boom, it's gone. Anxiety comes from, uh, the way we perseverate and tell stories to ourselves in our heads about the things that may or may not happen. As Mark Twain said, "I'm an old man, and I have lived through many troubles, but most of them never happened." So, anxiety is like being haunted. And if you sit with it, you will see that it is never with you in the room. It is never in a form that you can address in the present. It's always saying about- things about something that are s- something that's happening somewhere else in s- uh, somewhere on the line of time. And for that reason, it's never real, it's never present, and it's never true.
- CWChris Williamson
This interesting cocktail between our brain's predisposition and our modern society's reinforcement of that-
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... I suppose. Yeah, I, it's an interesting one talking about anxiety because it's become so pattern-matched. People have used, "I feel uncertain," or, "I am worried," and the term has sort of concept-creeped itself out-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... to, to encompass all of this. So I wonder, I wonder how much of it is, uh, people giving a name which sounds way more pathological-
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... to something which is a normal part of the human experience, you know?
- MBMartha Beck
Well, there is that. No question, we are like over-diagnosing ourselves and over-assigning diagnoses to everything that happens. But it's also true that even like the World Health Organization looking with, with fairly objective tests, as objective as you can get, has shown a dramatic rise in the number of people who are suffering crippling clinical levels of anxiety, um, as diagnosed by independent observers. So that went up by 25% during the, the pandemic and has continued to rise since the pandemic. The reason for that is, I found when I started to study it, is that anxiety only goes in one direction. It always goes up, it never reverses for reasons very particular to the human brain.
- CWChris Williamson
Dig into that. What do you mean anxiety only ever goes up, it never reverses?
- MBMartha Beck
Right. So if you've gone over a, uh, a tire ripper leaving a parking lot, and it's a, uh, there are these teeth, and when you go forward, they, they get smooshed under your wheels. But if you go back, they'll rip you apart. So it's a one-way process. In our brains, we have two things that make us capable of spinning anxiety up and up and up and largely unable to bring it down, down, down. Although that is possible, eminently possible. And the, the two things are something called the negativity bias, which I also call the 15 puppies and a cobra syndrome. If you went into a room and noticed 15 puppies and a cobra, where would all your attention go? It would go to the most frightening thing in the room because that's an evolutionary survival adaptation. Yeah? The problem is that when you see anything in your environment at all, you are likely to interpret it as something dangerous or negative because, and all brains have that, all ma- mammalian brains have that negativity bias. But in humans, it snags on the other capacity, and that is the ability to tell ourselves stories about what might happen, what could happen, what may have happened elsewhere that are so frightening to us that we actually, at a fairly regular rate, certain humans take their own lives rather than face what the story in their heads is telling them about a possible future. So you take the negativity bias, it sees the most negative thing in the room or online, the algorithms are written to give us more of whatever our attentions last, lives on the longest. You know, when we fixate attention, it gears those algorithms to give us similar material, which is an externalization of what's going on in our brains. We see something negative, we think it's gone wrong. We smell something, "Oh, that's strange." Then immediately it's, "Oh goodness, what if there's a gas leak? Oh my God, I know somebody who died in a gas leak. Oh my God." And that story, instead of being seen as fantasy, which it is, is reinterpreted by the primitive levels of the brain as an actual environment. So when you say, "Oh my God, the IRS is coming to take everything," your amygdala responds as if you are actively physically being attacked, and it can stay in that high fight or flight excitation level for literally years while you slowly die of degenerative illness because you were never meant to live in that high state of fear arousal. So yeah, it's, it's a one way, it's what scientists call an unregulated feedback system. It goes in, it feeds on itself.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MBMartha Beck
It drives itself higher and higher. And unless you actively defuse it, to mix a bunch of metaphors, it's just gonna keep going up and up and up.
- 5:33 – 15:22
Are We Designed to Be Anxious?
- MBMartha Beck
- CWChris Williamson
I'm interested in why, and I agree, I, I, I think it would have been maladaptive ancestrally for our, uh, great, great, great, great, great grandparents to have been stricken with anxiety and been unable to move and unable to think and-
- MBMartha Beck
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... permanently worried about going outside of the cave. But it does seem so universal to the human experience in the modern world-
- MBMartha Beck
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... it, it almost seems surprising to me to think that we weren't designed to be this way. It almost looks like we were the anxious creature, you know?
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I, I used to think that too. But I am a sociologist by training, and when I started looking at the difference between a healthy fear response and chronic anxiety, I saw basically that we have come from a place of anxiety and fear, and we have created institutions, media, and all kinds of other devices that are designed to reflect our obsession with what is dangerous. In the, uh, even 300 years ago, you or I might have woken up in a village where we heard, uh, mainly wind, uh, water running, trees rustling, each other's voices, bird song. We would get up and we would do things all day that we had evolved to interact with, animals, plants, each other, and (laughs) it's interesting that in the modern society, the things that we do on vacation, hunting, fishing, basket weaving, whatever it is, the reason we enjoy them so much is that they are what we evolved to do and they are highly regulating to our nervous systems. But we don't live that way. We get up into a world that is very, to, to cite the work of the wonderful Iain McGilchrist, who you may have heard of, brilliant Oxford neurologist and philosopher. He says we're, we kind of, we live in a world created by only the left hemisphere, which loves things it can grasp, and things it can build, and things it can predict and measure, and it loves to have things, and it's highly anxious. And we never get back, many of us never get back into the environmental situations that are meant to pitch our nervous systems where they really belong, and then we call that normal. Nothing about the world that you and I live in would be normal to a human 100 years ago, and humans have lived for hundreds of thousands of years.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
We are in a wildly aberrant moment, and there are ways you have to deal with that that w- we can't wait to evolve (laughs) to a- adopt them.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's gonna be a slow, a slow long wait. And so the, the main difference here between healthy fear and anxiety is the duration of it.
- MBMartha Beck
Partly. I mean, the, the reality of it. Um, we were just talking before we started recording about how I once tracked up way too close to a rhinoceros, and then really, truly when I looked up and saw this rhinoceros right in front of me, wild rhinoceros, um, really, truly thought I was gonna die. And it came as a wave of clarity and exhilaration and peace, but also acute intense, sort of, visceral knowing that if I did certain things, that if I kept my body soft and slow and low, I would be less likely to be attacked. And I don't know where those deeper things came from. I hadn't been trained to feel them. But that kind of clean fear, there's a psychologist named Steven Hayes who talks about clean pain and dirty pain, and fear goes the same way. Clean pain or clean fear, it's about something that is right there, that is real, that we can work with, and it, it rises and falls very quickly. When the danger is gone, it goes away. I have watched a lion attack an antelope and have the antelope speed up to levels the lion wasn't willing to reach, and so the lion stopped, and the analope- antelope stopped on a dime and started grazing, completely relaxed, with the lion still there-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
... because he knew there would be no attack. That's how quickly a fear response is meant to fall. But this ongoing, brooding anxiety that we have that makes us, it makes us insane, frankly. It makes us act, uh, McGilchrist says like people who've had a, a massive right hemisphere stroke. We don't know anything to do but to try to ensure our survival and our victory over the oppressors, whatever we see as the oppressor, and the whole time we're just sort of sitting in a chair somewhere.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's not the... Well, I... So I'm wondering, wha- how do you think our, our ancestors, 'cause people would look at the way a gazelle operates and think, "Well, that's not us. That's not our nervous system." So how do you think humans would have dealt with this ancestrally?
- MBMartha Beck
I think that they knew what they were dealing with much more intimately. So my friend, Boyd Varty, who was with me tracking that rhinoceros and would never have let me get close enough for it to kill me, but I didn't know that. I've watched him in situations where I was completely freaked out, and he is completely relaxed because he grew up in the African bush interacting with all these animals, with weather situations, with fires, with, um, you know, all manner of natural disasters, and there's a kind of, there's a kind of harmony to them all. And you can kind of tune into them, but you can't do it if you're anxious. I once watched, um, three or four horses that were tied to a post get into a fight. They were all tied to the post. And they started to fight and kick each other, and then they started, like, screaming. Horses can scream very loudly. And one of them kicked another one and fell down, and then they all got tangled and fell down. There were all these guys, grooms, who were there whose business it was to watch the horses, and as they spiked this intense adrenaline surge, I watched all these men get very soft and very gentle and very slow. These, you know, tough cowboys very... Their body language became kind of languorous and they moved in so gently and so calmly.... and they got those horses right. They knew that if you are actually able to calm your own anxiety, your own fear, you can actually entrain other creatures, including other humans, into a state of calm. That's what I saw Boyd knowing because he grew up surrounded by the environment we evolved to live in, and it does not work in what we call the civilized world. Tension and pressure and anxiety actually drive us to fulfill our society's sort of brief, but it's not good for us (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Talk about what anxiety does to our abilities in the moment.
- MBMartha Beck
Oh my gosh. It makes everybody, um, who's ever studied creativity knows that any anxiety at all just shuts it down immediately. Even telling people who are solving a creativity problem that if they do it right, they'll be paid, creates enough anxiety that they can't think. They just can't think anymore. Uh, when we get anxious, we can't relate to other people. We project our fear of danger onto them. And as a coach, I'm often on the receiving end of this. So, I had a woman who was criticized by both her parents growing up, very traumatized by it, and at a certain point, we were doing something outside, and I said, "Um, are you an athlete? Because you move really beau- it's, it's a pleasure to watch you move. You're so athletic." And she got very silent and for the rest of the day, she wouldn't s- well, she wouldn't talk. She sort of hunkered away from the group. And finally, I said, "What? What happened?" And she said, "Well, I was fine until you told me I should've been an athlete." Like, that's how our relationships start to go-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
... when we're living in a state of continuous anxiety. It's horrible. And then we go to work and we can't tune into our customers or into the efficient processing of physical objects or into our coworkers. It's just very counterproductive, and yet we see it as a driver of productivity.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, very interesting. Uh, it's strange, it's strange to think about how much anxiety sort of reshapes people over time.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
If you, if you keep doing that, this way of seeing the world actually becomes your personality-
- MBMartha Beck
Absolutely.
- CWChris Williamson
... that you s- you start to look for it. You start to look for the, the red car that you just bought-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... but it's the equivalent inter-socially with-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... all of the people that are around you.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. Yeah. It absolutely. What wires to- what fires together, wires together in the brain. So, if we're constantly being shunted by the negativity bias into the left hemisphere of the brain where most of the storytelling goes on, the right hemisphere doesn't really use language much, um, and that story keeps feeding back to our amygdalae, um, we are living in a fundamentally different brain than if we knew how to let anxiety subside and bring ourselves into a regulated nervous system.
- 15:22 – 27:30
Overcoming the Anxiety Spiral
- CWChris Williamson
Something else that I think everyone is very common with is getting anxious about your anxiety.
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, yeah (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
The story that you tell yourself about how you feel-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... and your frustration at the story that you tell yourself and your... H- how do you come to think about the sort of fear of anxiety and the anxiousness is anxiousness?
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. It's, I call it the anxiety spiral because ultimately, I mean, what people who have phobias become more afraid of, they, they may be afraid of going outside, but what they're really afraid of is the panic attack that m- once got to them outside. So, it's this really intense escalated sense of fear in the brain that actually frightens us the most, as well it should. It's actually the creator of most of our suffering around anxiety. Very little out of- of it is based on actual circumstances. So yeah, it spirals up and up and up and up until people... Well, it's g- uh, the New York Times called it the inner pandemic. It's become so, such an a- egregiously dominant characteristic for people worldwide, um, that that's why I started studying it, and that's why the World Health Organization is, uh, saying we should look more closely at it (laughs) .
- CWChris Williamson
How do you come to think about interjecting into that spiral, about putting the brakes on it?
- MBMartha Beck
Well, (laughs) there was something I stumbled into once during a very intense panic attack that I had 'cause I had, um, I had two... Well, I had one serious bout of anxiety. It lasted, it started at birth, and it lasted till I was about 60. Um, but there were (laughs) in- uh, I mean-
- CWChris Williamson
That's a pretty serious-
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's a pretty serious bout a bout still.
- MBMartha Beck
I was born with a very sensitive nervous system and did not set it up very well. Until I actually started reading- uh, writing this book, I had never actually thought that I could bring it down to zero. Um, now I believe that we can bring it down to zero. I've experienced that. Um, and I know that it's reliable, so how do we do it? The first thing is something I call kind internal self-talk. Now the acronym for that, K-I-S-T, is KIST, which, you know, I went to Harvard. I don't, uh, three times (laughs) . I don't, like, walk around saying, "We should all kiss ourselves on the brain. It's really good." Um, but kind internal self-talk, uh, is something that I learned by studying the Tibetan Buddhist practice of metta meditation or loving-kindness meditation. Um, many monks before they do any other form of meditation do a year of loving-kindness meditation toward the self. So, all it is, is looking at any part of you that you can observe from sort of as- the short distance of your mind and saying to any frightened parts of yourself...May you be well. May you be happy. May you be free from suffering. May you feel safe and protected. May you be happy. Or even more like simply, I've got you. I'm here. You're all right. There's no danger in the room. We're okay. May you be happy. May you be well. I took myself from a point of maximum anxiety, this was in my early 50s. Um, I used that KIST technique to bring it down, down, down, down until it only rose periodically and then that was my first step away from the spiral of anxiety. And then when I started researching it, I found ways of sort of hooking my thoughts to a very different spiral. And by doing that, I managed to pull myself almost completely out of anxiety at a time when the world was getting increasingly anxious. So yeah, the, but the self-talk is absolutely critical.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, what's your advice for people who have a negative inner voice in that way?
- MBMartha Beck
L- you have to love that too. So, um, one of the people whose work I, I cited in this book is Chris Voss. He was a hostage, the head hostage negotiator for the FBI for many years. Brilliant, brilliant negotiator and he was dealing with like psychopathic terrorists who were holding hostages with guns to their heads. These were not nice people. And, uh, what he knew was that no matter how crazy the person you're talking to is, especially if it's yourself, you're always at the basis dealing with an overcharged amygdala, an amygdala that, that sees fear where there is none. And the amygdala is cued to certain ways of reacting to it. So y- he says you adopt the late night DJ voice. You're like, "Hi, I'm here." And then you start empathizing with it. "I see you. I hear you. Tell me everything. I'm right here." He's great at it. Um, so if you have a critical voice and it's saying, "You stupid lump of lard. Why are you wasting space by existing?" Uh, I've heard that one many times inside my own head. What you have to do is not say, "Shut up," but to say to that critical voice, "Tell me everything. I see you. You're okay. I'm right here. You're gonna be all right." Because it's always a frightened self trying to keep you from being destroyed. And it takes anything bad that ever happened to you, projects it into the future and says, "I will make you so fearful that you will run from every danger before it even has a chance to get near us. And I will do that by screaming and yelling horrible things at you."
- CWChris Williamson
And then you mentioned this KIST, which is loving-kindness meditation. How long were your sessions? How frequently were you doing them? How long did you need to do them for?
- MBMartha Beck
When I was in a panic attack, um, I did it for, I'd been i- in a absolute, like take me to the psychiatric hospital panic for like 72 hours. I think I kept it up for like eight hours before I came completely into calm, which was pretty amazing because I'd been given drugs that weren't working and hypnosi- nothing worked until I did the kind, the loving-kindness meditations. Um, how often do you do it? (laughs) It v- it's like breath. It gets to the point where every single moment of your day there's a part of you saying, "May you be well. I'm right here. I've got you." In IFS therapy, they call this Self with a capital S. And it's this part of the self that's always compassionate, always curious, always creative, always courageous. And once it starts to gently talk to you, you're, you're out of the woods already.
- CWChris Williamson
And then you said you learned how to hook your thoughts to a different type of spiral, so it seems like the first step is to befriend the negative voice, then it's to try and turn the volume down on that a little bit by putting some other positive voices in a little bit more.
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
And then-
- MBMartha Beck
I ... Yeah, and I didn't give you, uh, what you very, uh, reasonably asked for, which is a practice. Like, I, you get to the point where loving-kindness becomes the way you think.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
But at first, I would give it, um ... If you can do it for 10 minutes a day, three times every day, like morning, noon and night, I think that would give you a really strong contrasting experience of what the rest of your day is like versus the time-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
... that you're doing the loving-kindness. That's a great motivator to str- to lengthen those and then string them together, because you can do it while you're doing anything else. It doesn't take extra time from your day. It's just a change of, um, perspective. And it doesn't actually turn down the volume. It, it doesn't smother or reduce your anxiety. It befriends it. Always think of your anxiety as an animal because that is literally what it is. In our culture, we treat an anxious brain as though it's a broken machine. That's how we treat our bodies. But it's not a broken machine; it's a frightened animal. And it's so interesting to me. Everyone I've ever met, if they found, if you found a really bedraggled, uh, scared, shivering puppy or horse or whatever and you were, and it was very afraid and you decided to calm it, you know how. Like, we learn all these advanced therapies and stuff, but all of us are born knowing how to calm a frightened animal. And Chris Voss just made it a profession, right? (laughs) So like, y- what would you do if you found a grungy little puppy that was terrified and you decided, it was on your doorstep and you decided to like take pity on it. How would you approach it?
- CWChris Williamson
... slowly, softly, gently.
- MBMartha Beck
Yep. Yep. You're off- you can go like that into the energy that changes anxiety into calm. And it's not turning down the volume. It's more like satisfying a thirst, that the anxious part of us is desperate to be told it can take a break, it can take a rest.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
And then there's this huge, huge sense of relief when it starts to let go. And then you can start to move from initial sensation going into fear, which is the left hemisphere reaction, to, uh, an amygdala reaction that moves you toward curiosity. That's the first step that is really gonna take you away from anxiety completely, and it's, it's closely linked. It's like, do you ever, have you ever rubbernecked at an accident site? You drive by-
- CWChris Williamson
I, I try not to, but yeah.
- MBMartha Beck
We all try not to, but we all want to. (laughs)
- 27:30 – 30:26
How Anxiety Impacts Creativity
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, talk to me about this tension between creativity and anxiety.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. Um, here's the thing. The left hemisphere has this strange tendency known as hemispatial neglect, and what that means is that it doesn't believe that anything except itself is real, itself and its own perceptions. So if someone has a right hemisphere stroke, and they only are working with their left hemisphere, tha- that's the part that r- runs the right side of the body, right hand and leg and side of the face, and they may shave or put makeup on only that side of their face.
- CWChris Williamson
No way.
- MBMartha Beck
They ignore everybody who is on their left. Only, the only things that matter are on their right. If you ask them to draw a clock, they'll fill in all the numbers on the right and leave the rest blank. It's very bizarre. Oliver Sacks, the great, uh, writer and, and psychiatrist once went into a hospital where there was a man who'd woken up and had a right hemisphere stroke in his sleep, and he was screaming that the nurses had put a severed leg into bed with him as a kind of sick joke. And he was screaming and yelling and pointing at his own left leg. And Oliver Sacks came in, and, and (laughs) th- the guy picked up his own leg and threw it out of the bed. He said, "If nobody will get rid of this thing, I will." And he threw it up-
- CWChris Williamson
How do you throw your own leg out of the bed?
- MBMartha Beck
Well, it turns out you're attached. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
So he's lying there going, "Oh my God, it's attached to me!"
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- MBMartha Beck
"Get it off! Get it off!" And, and Oliver Sacks said, "Well, if that's not your leg, where is your left leg?" And he just stopped and he looked around and went, "It's completely gone. It's nowhere to be seen." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- MBMartha Beck
Total irrationality. The right side of the brain does not have this capacity. Where the left hemisphere excludes things, the right hemisphere includes things. So when the whole brain is working or when the right brain is dominant, it's fully aware of all the data brought in by the left hemisphere. It can track the dangers and measure the things and know the words, but it's grounded in something more present, uh, more meaningful, more, um, in Self, capital S. It's basically in the right sides of our brains, so it's able to contextualize everything. If we're stuck in anxiety, we truly believe that nothing else exists. But when you get out of anxiety, you see so much more, but you also see the part of you that's anxious, and you can include it in a sort of circle of compassion. And that's, that makes the brain balance. And then you can use your left hemisphere for data to make and learn things that only human brains can learn. And that is a joyride.
- 30:26 – 34:00
Activating the Right Side of Your Brain
- CWChris Williamson
What are your favorite way ... I don't know how to activate my left versus right hemisphere. What are some of the, uh, proximate ways for me to try and get that to, to get started?
- MBMartha Beck
Well, um, one thing you can do, if you have a pen and paper there, is, uh, write your name. And then-
- CWChris Williamson
I don't, unfortunately. I'll let you do it.
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, okay. Oh, I don't have a piece of paper here. Hmm. Okay, you write your name forward. Then, uh, this is in the book as well. Then you go to the left side of it. Oh, here's a piece of paper I could use. And you write your name backwards. So, I'm gonna do this here. I'll write Martha, and then I'll go to the other side. It's not as, it's not as clear, but I can do it.
- CWChris Williamson
That's unbelievably impressive.
- MBMartha Beck
And then, well, it, it comes from learning to open your right hemisphere. I actually taught in the art department at Harvard under a brilliant professor named Will Reiman, and he did lots of these exercises to help awaken the right side of the brain. And, um, this was one of the things that he did. And, um, you can do it upside-down. You can ... Now, as I'm doing this, I'm writing my name upside-down, and then upside-down and backwards-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
... I am less able to talk to you because as (laughs) ... Just lost it completely.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- MBMartha Beck
You can't talk and do this at the same time 'cause the right hemisphere, um, doesn't talk.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MBMartha Beck
As it says in my favorite book, the Tao Te Ching, the Chinese Tao Te Ching, though, "That which talks does not know. That which knows does not talk."
- CWChris Williamson
Very interesting. Okay. So, try-
- MBMartha Beck
So that's one way.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- MBMartha Beck
Drawing anything is helpful. Drawing with your non-dominant hand, or with your left hand, um, if you're right-handed. Um, any kind of motion through nature. Tracking, uh, that we were talking about earlier, is one of the most powerful ways to wake up your right hemisphere that I have ever experienced. It's ... (laughs) I had a client once who was, he ha- ran a sports empire, and he specialized in what he called the spiritual sports. And these were skiing, surfing, golfing, oddly enough, um, I know, sailing, rock climbing, things that demand extremely focused attention on the body kinesthetically moving through space. That is ... You, you have to drive hard into your right hemisphere to make that work.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- MBMartha Beck
Left hemisphere cannot do it. And that's why, I don't know if you do any of those things, but if you do, you may have found them almost addictive. Like, like, people just ... I've never surfed, but people will, like, they live to surf. I used to live to ski. Um, now I live to do so many things because I have a list of activities that turn on the right side of my brain, and I can always access one or more of them on any day. Skiing or no skiing.
- CWChris Williamson
What are the ones that you do the most?
- MBMartha Beck
Drawing and painting. Yeah. So this painting behind me is-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, very nice.
- MBMartha Beck
It's just ... It's a painting of, uh, I went on a walk with some friends through the Cotswolds-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
... last October.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
And that was a real place where we stopped, and I took a picture and did a painting.
- 34:00 – 39:35
The Role of Courage in Pursuing Creativity
- MBMartha Beck
- CWChris Williamson
What role do you think courage has when it comes to pursuing your creative purpose in this way?
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. Just to say, "I am going to step out, uh, and be creative," in our cultural context and with the anxiety most of us carry, is an act of courage. And most of us have been shamed for trying to do creative things and not doing them well enough. And if we're really good at them, we got praised for them, but as I told you a little while ago, even being praised for doing something creative, or being told that you'll be paid for it, increases anxiety. So, courage, it takes courage to say, "I'm gonna try this at all." And then it takes courage to know that you will fail, to achieve the sort of surrounding culture's definition of what's impressive, and that that is not the point. Uh, I throw away hundreds of paintings because the point is not the painting. The point is painting. You don't go to the gym to steal all the equipment. You go to the gym ... Or, or to lift it up in the air and let, let it stay there. You lift it and let it fall, you lift it and let it fall again, over and over, because what you take out of the gym is a different body because it has been involved in, uh, has been engaged in that activity. Anything you do that's creative, and everything we do is creative. Getting dressed, or buying our clothes is a creative act. It, it involves aesthetic choices. Making food is a creative act. Um, a conversation can be a creative act. A dinner party, um. Uh, pretty much everything humans do can be seen as creative. And if we go into that mode, everything becomes suffused with a sense of, uh, beauty and presence and even awe, which is why in Zen they say, "Before enlightenment, chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment, chop wood, carry water." But the same activities are imbued with a kind of sacred astonishment to the one who has left anxiety behind.
- CWChris Williamson
What if someone doesn't feel very creative or like they have much room for creativity in their life? How do you think about awakening your inner creative if it's something that's been hidden for a long time?
- MBMartha Beck
The first thing is that most people are exhausted. And the first act of creativity the brain will undertake is returning us to homeostasis, to health. So, if you are exhausted by years of anxiety and pushing your body to go against its circadian rhythms and its ultradian rhythms and basically all its rhythms, if you've been, uh, robbed of peace and the kind of creativity children engage in, which is w- without any particular objective, you will first probably need to rest for a long time. Not that long. Four days. That's what it takes usually for when someone's totally exhausted. Four days of absolutely no agenda, like, lie on the couch eating ice cream and watching, you know, reruns of The White Lotus or whatever. And on the third day there will be a return of a flicker of hope. The first two days, you're just like, "I'm a waste of space and I hate myself." The third day, you're like, "Oh, I remember life. It wasn't that bad." And on the fourth day you'll think, "Huh." (laughs) "Maybe there's something I could do. I want to make ... I want to, like, build, to make pottery after watching the Great Pottery Throw-Down." Like, you start to get spontaneously creative after four days of rest.
- CWChris Williamson
Right. So, you are ... It's a battle of attrition, of boredom, to give yourself so little to do that you've got nothing- uh, no other choice than to become creative. Is that what we're doing here?
- MBMartha Beck
No, no, no. I think of it more-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
... as filling the well. You want to consume pleasures. Uh, and- and we're so resisted- so resistant to this, especially, you know, you're the kind of person who works out hard and performs h- uh, at high levels in everything he does. And everything in the culture says that's the right way to do it. But you will destroy yourself if you do nothing else. And for all that effort you put out, you have to drink in what is around you, uh, in nature, but also what's created by the creativity of other people, which has sort of a profound frequency of peace, delight, um, merriment. The- the right hemisphere only uses language for songs, poems, and jokes. You know, if you sat and watched ... (laughs) I remember when, uh, Boyd Varty, I thought he was very ... Sorry to name you, Boyd. Um, but I met him at a time when he was completely physically and mentally exhausted, and he came to see me in the US. And I made him lie down and watch Eddie Izzard routines, the- the comedian, Eddie Izzard, um, for three days. And he was like ... And I brought him ice cream. He and his sister were there, and I brought them ice cream and told them, "No, more comedy. More comedy. You haven't done (laughs) your comedy today."
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- MBMartha Beck
A- And they talk about that as a kind of turning point, because no one ever told them that was okay. And I was telling them, "No, it's required."
- 39:35 – 43:20
Effective Interventions For Anxious People
- MBMartha Beck
- CWChris Williamson
What else is there to say about interventions that you found successful for the perennially anxious person?
- MBMartha Beck
Sometimes it can help to plug into the energy or the presence of someone who's already gotten over the hurdle of, um, conformity to the culture. So, if you can be with someone who is a great meditation teacher or, uh, a poet or a musician, and if you can be with them in this field of ... You can actually experience almost tangibly a field of stillness and again, this phenomenon of entrainment. It may be partly because we have mirror neurons in our brains. We reflect each other's brain patterns. So, when I look at you and you look at me, our brains are actually moving to be more alike. So, if you're with someone who's profoundly calm, it can really help you entrain, but I actually think it's more than the mirror neurons. I think it's probably, um, something to do with electromagnetism. We have electrical systems made of meat. (laughs) Our nervous systems. And we all know that electrical things can con- can communicate without wires, so you feel things. You pick up things, and you become much more intuitive in those spaces as well, which makes it extra fun.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, so you're using the, uh, social pressure of being around people who appear to have already done that work to help you to do yours?
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs) Maybe. I ... No. (laughs) No, I would prefer that you be in a small room on the s- uh, s- you know, with the door closed, and the pers- the enlightened person is in the other room doing something.
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, I see.
- MBMartha Beck
And you just get to eat ice cream. It is not about... Uh, n- in one way of looking at things, nature is the opposite of culture, yeah ?And so bringing culture in always ... Because we have an anxious culture, it's always gonna spur that anxiety, which is the way it immediately turns into, "Oh, now I've got social pressure." No, there's no pressure whatsoever. It is like falling when you are in the field of someone who is profoundly without anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
It- it actually can be disorienting, um, and give you a bit of vertigo, but it's so delicious. It's ... Because your nervous system is finding its place again, probably after years of being jacked up and anxious.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think, uh, my joke version of social pressure was talking about the way that mirror neurons work. If you hang around-
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, okay.
- CWChris Williamson
If you hang around with happy people, you tend to be a little bit happier.
- MBMartha Beck
True.
- CWChris Williamson
If you hang around with sad people, you tend to be a little bit more sad. Um, but yeah. Whatever, whatever you want to call it. Uh, mirror neurons, social consistency bias, just the vibe of the room. Uh, all of those things are ... So, one thing I've got-I think about this quite a lot. I wonder whether mastering anxiety is a game of control or a game of acceptance. And-
- MBMartha Beck
100% acceptance.
- CWChris Williamson
... it, it, it does seem to be the more that you fight it, the worse that it gets.
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
That's where that anxiety spiral, uh, the-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... anxiety cycle comes in.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. We call it the fight-flight system for a reason, although it's fight, flight, faint, freeze, flop-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
... falling out. They have all these other F words. But yeah, as long ... If you go into fight mode to get rid of your fight or flight, uh, arousal, it's going to exacerbate your flight arousal.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah, that's why they say fighting for peace is like fornicating for virginity.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs)
- 43:20 – 47:47
Martha’s Autoimmune Issues
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I didn't know that you'd had autoimmune issues-
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... for such, for such a long time. Can you tell the story of that?
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, my goodness. They started when I was 18. Um, I was running about 100 miles a week. I was running marathons, um, finishing my freshman year at Harvard, and I got hit by a car, and it just dinged me on the hip and threw into a snow bank, and then I ran 11 miles home. But the next day, I was in a lot of pain, went to a doctor and the doctor said, "Well, we're gonna immobilize you until the pain goes away." And it was 12 years later that the pain went away. (laughs) It just ... Not only did it not get better, it got much worse and it started traveling. Um, I started having very, very high levels of inflammation in all different areas of my body, different organ systems. By the end of 12 years, I'd, I'd largely given up on medical treatments because they all told me, "We don't know what's wrong with you." Um, but I was diagnosed with three measurable observable, um, autoimmune conditions, all of which they told me were, um, poorly understood and incurable, and progressive.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Thanks, guys.
- MBMartha Beck
Yay. Yeah, I actually ... They gave me a pamphlet for one of the things, interstitial cystitis. All you IC people out there, three cheers. Um, constant, um, internal pain, and they gave me a pamphlet when I was diagnosed, and I opened it randomly and it said at the top of this one page, "To keep yourself from committing suicide, remind yourself of your religious beliefs." (laughs) And I was like, "That's your treatment?"
- CWChris Williamson
Wow.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah, it was gnarly.
- CWChris Williamson
Was that because of the impact? Was that because of the treatment?
- MBMartha Beck
No.
- CWChris Williamson
Was it because of being sedentary?
- MBMartha Beck
All of the above. Yeah. Um, what I had was, uh, I think now I would probably call it tension myofascial syndrome, but it did reach levels in my organs where it caused other disease. But it's basically just a spasmodic tightening of different muscular systems in the body. They don't really know. But, um, it actually ... I finally got that diagnosis when I was 31. I was 18 when I got hit, went 31. A doctor went out (laughs) and came back with one of his med school books. He was just a newly fledged doctor, and he goes through this huge book, and he said, "I think you have this." And it said, um, the only treatments they had were vacations and exercise. (laughs) And I said, "Can I have a note to that effect? Um, oh, and massage. Yes." And I went directly from there to the gym. And I was so weak I couldn't lift a two-pound leg extension weight. Leg extension, I couldn't lift two pounds. And, uh, it was excruciating, but they ... I had learned it probably wasn't harming tissue, and so I, I found that exercise was actually a magic bullet for me, as long as I also stayed very relaxed as lik- relaxed as I could and, this is the key, only did things I enjoyed.
- CWChris Williamson
Why?
- MBMartha Beck
Because anything else ... You know, the reason lie detectors work is that when we, when we say things that we know aren't true, everything in the body reacts against that. Our muscles tighten, our perspiration incre- increases, our blink rate, um, our per- you know, hand sweat, they can measure immediately. All these things happen when we lie, and they can pick that up on a machine. Well, when you do something you don't enjoy and you show up without protest, you're kind of lying with your life. You're lying with your actions. And little kids won't do that.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
They will scream their lungs out if they're taken to a place they hate, and we just beat it out of them. Well, don't beat them anymore, but a lot of people have been beaten for it. And it's ironic because what they're doing is they're following an evolutionary imperative to find what's right for them by following a sense of enjoyment. It's that simple. But the culture we live in does not really teach us to do that.
- 47:47 – 51:33
Advice For People With Chronic Illness
- MBMartha Beck
- CWChris Williamson
What would be your advice to someone that's going through a protracted period of chronic illness? I mean, you were bedbound for a very long time.
- MBMartha Beck
Like 12 years, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. I mean, that's ... it's a special kind of living hell-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... with even f- less happening. So it's like-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... boring hell. Um-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. What, w- how did you get through that stuff? And, uh, in retrospect, what do you wish that someone had told you sort of during that period of your life?
- MBMartha Beck
Hmm. The first thing is that, um, please direct compassion to the parts of yourself that are in pain. I was at war with the, with my own pain. I was so angry at it for keeping me ... 'cause I was highly active before that, and, um, I directed hatred and violence at it internally.... when I learned to meditate, which is- that's another thing that I would really, really advise. The one thing I- (laughs) I decided I could do in that situation, the one thing I could learn was meditation, and so I started. And I sort of got into it before the general public sort of adopted it in the United States, and I'm really grateful that I did. What I would say to another person though is first be kind, be kind, be kind to the parts of you that are hurting. And secondly, realize that there is the capacity to increase your life's value and experience by going outward for experience, and then there is also the capacity to go infinitely inward. And when you are forced to go infinitely inward, you find that the inner space is as vast and interesting and full of information and experience as the outer world in which your body lives. It can be quite trippy, and it's worth doing.
- CWChris Williamson
So you learned to meditate.
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What a- what about when it comes to, uh, don't, uh, rail, don't sort of fight, don't have violence against the parts of you that are the ones that are struggling or the ones that are falling behind?
- MBMartha Beck
Hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
What else? What else sort of have you come to reflect on about that period?
- MBMartha Beck
I wanna tweak that a tiny bit. So love the parts of your body that are hurting, and also love the part of you that hates it-
- CWChris Williamson
Ah.
- MBMartha Beck
... the part of you that- that hates the pain, that hates the restriction. Say, "I get it. I'm here. I'm- I hear you. Tell me everything." And just allow yourself to, "I poured it all out in journals when my hands worked," which wasn't always. Um, and self-expression is another way that has been shown very effectively to reduce levels of stress and anxiety, especially when you're in a tough situation. Does that answer the question?
- CWChris Williamson
Self ex- self-expression as in journaling, just being able to get your words out in a relatively judgment-free way?
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. And- and you don't even have to use words. You could draw pictures. You could, um, uh, you- you use music, uh, play songs that help convey your emotions. Uh, it's almost as if getting the experience of all the difficulty of human life into a state where it can be communicated is not only, uh, a really, really positive way to get out of suffering, but also an incentive to connect with the world and other people in a deeply authentic way-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
... which, again, we're not taught to do. And unless we're in a lot of suffering, most of us never even think of doing it, so I'm really grateful for that horrible experience. (laughs)
- 51:33 – 57:01
The Most Common Limiting Beliefs
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. What are the, for the people, whether they're sick or not, what are the most common limiting beliefs that the people who you work with tend to have? I think a lot of the time when we look at our inner landscape as kind of like a personal curse or blessing in some way-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... but no matter what we think of it as unique to us, and, uh, upon hearing the way that other people think or feel, you realize that this is probably much more of a feature of being a-
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... sensitive human than it is a bug of being broken and you.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah. Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, so I'm just interested in what those common self-limiting beliefs are.
- MBMartha Beck
The first one is, "I'm not good enough." Um, "There's something wrong with me. I'm not enough. I'm too much." It's about the quality of the being you essentially are being maladapted to the world and unacceptable. That is universal. And I think it's because you have these... (sighs) We're born with really, really active brains. I mean, we have so much going on inside our brains when we're just born. And if we're cared for by people who are really tuned into our needs, that is great for us, and we develop brains that trust the world. But the moment the person we are inside starts to run into, um, contradiction or social pressure, for example, they don't like it when I cry all the time, um, we- when we get that socialized, uh, pressure, we (laughs) in- instantly sell out our true nature and do what people want us to do. And then there's something called the just world hypothesis, which almost all children have, which is being misunderstood by adults who frankly don't even know how to connect with you because you can't talk or make... You- you know, it's- it's a ridiculous fail-fail situation. The parents can't win. The baby can't win. It's bizarre. But the baby, uh, has this conception of the world that says, "Well, these people that are supporting me are absolutely necessary to my wellbeing. So if I've got a problem with them, the world is full of demons and I cannot bear to exist. So what must be going on here is that I'm not good enough for them."
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
"I did something wrong. There's something bad about me. I need too much. I'm not giving enough." And, you know, the twig gets bent in the first months of life-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- MBMartha Beck
... and then we all bump into various small and large traumas along the way and internalize all of those into our self-concept. There's always this shame-based feeling of the es- the essential self that I am is somehow just wrong.
- CWChris Williamson
How do you advise... I mean, this seems like such a- a basic assumption that people have about themselves, so- so much-
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
... so that it's- it's not even an assumption. It's more like the physics-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... of their system, um, you know, the thermodynamics of the inside of their mind. Uh-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... what sort of wormhole do you need to break through in order to change that?
- MBMartha Beck
It's funny that you use, um, the term physics because I wrote a book called The Way of Integrity where I said you have to be in the truth, the truth of your own experience. And integrity was not meant in a moral sense, but in a structural sense. A plane that's in structural integrity can fly. A plane that's not in integrity often can't fly or will crash or whatever. So what happens, I think, is that you- you start to look at... And- and I said in the book, it's not morality, it's just physics. So here you have a world view and a set of beliefs, and if it's in perfect integrity, that is all your sense of what is true, at all levels of your body, mind, heart, soul, if they're all in alignment, there is no psychological suffering. If you have psychological suffering, if there's anything wrong with your, um, your mood, your relationships, your career, anything, the physics are off. And in there somewhere is something that's out of true, and that will always, 100% of the time... Sometimes it's a trauma, an internalized trauma that happens at a very physical level, um, but most of the time it's a story held in the brain very deeply, and it gives us a message that we're not safe and things are not okay. And that's out of alignment with the truth. It may be absolutely in accord with what we're taught in- in our culture, in school. You know, a kid is dyslexic and he's failing and everything, the school will say, "Yeah, you're wrong." Something's... If they don't know he has dyslexia. "You're not trying enough. You're not working up to potential." And he internalizes that as- as self-hatred and shame. Um, but it's wrong, so the- the physics won't work, so he can't move forward, he can't feel at- at peace, he can't be settled, he can't... And it will not leave us alone.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- MBMartha Beck
Any failure of integrity causes structural issues that make our lives unable to work well. So if you have something that's wrong, go in and find the physics of belief, find the belief that you are holding that is not in accordance with what you feel to be true at the very deepest level. And anxiety is one of the things (laughs) that is most often out of true, especially in our culture.
- 57:01 – 1:02:51
Pay Attention to Your Fleeting Thoughts
- MBMartha Beck
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, there's... It's strange thinking about digging a little bit deeper and working out sort of who you truly are, what integrity looks like, because I think it's very easy to distract, swipe, uh, dopamine your way out of hearing that. That voice in the back of your mind, I- I did a lot of therapy, uh, last year.
- MBMartha Beck
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
And one of the best things that my therapist taught me was pla- pay attention to fleeting thoughts.
- MBMartha Beck
Oh, I love that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's gorgeous. And, um, I don't think she means fleeting as in flimsy or as in fickle.
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But fleeting as in quiet.
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, but typically repetitive, right?
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the same thing that you've heard a few times over and over again.
- MBMartha Beck
I love that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's great. Um, pay attention to fleeting thoughts. But the problem is, uh, and I noticed this, you know, as I was heavily caffeinated in a car, just having finished an episode or, you know, I'm on Slack but I've taken a call at the same time.
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And then I'd get in and shoo, there's just this huge deceleration.
- MBMartha Beck
Huh.
- CWChris Williamson
Okay, now- now I'm on the cushion and let's see what happens for 50 minutes.
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, and it would be, you know, there would... The first 20 minute, kind of like meditation, of-
- MBMartha Beck
Yes.
- CWChris Williamson
... almost all of the overhead that you're paying is getting into the process of meditation, which is one of the-
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... disadvantages of only doing 10-minute sessions or 15-minute sessions.
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs) Right.
- CWChris Williamson
You spend all of these, pay all of the overhead to get into it, and none of the sort of profit of being in it. Um, and then, yeah, after a little while, fleeting thoughts would be a little bit louder, but it just-
- MBMartha Beck
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
That comparison between how I was when I was going in and how I was when I was first there and how I was toward the end of the session, um, before I got, I tended to sort of run out of gas. I th-
- MBMartha Beck
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It's so funny you think, you look at 50 minutes and you think, "I can't achieve anything in 50 minutes." And if you're 45 minutes into a therapy session you actually think, "Yeah, I'm ready to be done-"
- 1:02:51 – 1:03:33
Where to Find Martha
- CWChris Williamson
gentlemen. Martha, let's bring this one into line. That was so beautiful. Uh-
- MBMartha Beck
Thank you.
- CWChris Williamson
... where should people go if they wanna keep up to date with-
- MBMartha Beck
Oh.
- CWChris Williamson
... all this stuff you're doing?
- MBMartha Beck
Uh, just marthabeck.com. I also run an online, um, community called wildercommunity.com, so if you wanna, like, hang out with people who think like this... (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- MBMartha Beck
Yeah, uh, it's fun. It's weird, but it's fun. Our motto is, "Feeling good by looking weird."
- CWChris Williamson
Okay. Yeah, good. I like that. Uh, that's cool. Martha, I really appreciate you. Until next time.
- MBMartha Beck
Thank you so much. Take care.
- CWChris Williamson
Congratulations. You made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? Come on.
Episode duration: 1:03:33
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