How To Breathe Properly | Brian Mackenzie | Modern Wisdom Podcast 121

1. 0:00 – 15:00

   Today, 500 million years…

   1. BMBrian Mackenzie0:00

      Today, 500 million years ago, aerobic metabolism sits at the forefront of the most efficient way to use energy. And so anything outside of aerobic metabolism becomes anaerobic. So if I don't have that process, that conversion of energy, I'll default very simply, and we should, to this higher stress situation of using energy. So anaerobic doesn't necessarily become a training process. It's more or less the byproduct of I'm no longer able to handle aerobically what's going on.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:32

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BMBrian Mackenzie0:33

      So how quickly I can come back to that aerobic is literally how f- well I can. So w- having a very high aerobic capacity (laughs) means I function high aerobically. So when we look at people like a guy smashing the two-hour marathon, what does he look like physiologically? And although there's like ... Look, uh, to be totally hon- Like, look, I support and I'm very happy for the man and everything, but realistically, if he were in the same setup as they were in 1950 or even 1980, he wouldn't have run a sub two-hour marathon.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:12

      I'm joined by Bryan Mackenzie, the man behind Power Speed Endurance, and today we are talking about something that you will all be familiar with, but probably doing a little bit wrong: breathing. Bryan, welcome to the show.

   5. BMBrian Mackenzie1:23

      (laughs) Thanks for having me.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:26

      It's gonna be awesome. I'm really excited to speak about this sort of stuff today. We've been talking about endurance a lot recently. Had Alex Hutchinson, writer for Runner's World, on analyzing Eliud Kipchoge's recent performance. We've had the, uh, Bryan Carroll, uh, from, uh, PowerAct Strength on talking about squatting at over 1,000 pounds, and all of this is enabled by a lot of different things. But I guess principally, one of those is breath work, right?

   7. BMBrian Mackenzie1:51

      Yeah. Well, physiology and, I mean, all chemistry is regulated through our breath. So (laughs) anything and everything. I mean, I- I'm, uh ... I- I've known Alex for quite some time. We've kind of gone, we've gone back and forth over the years. He's a great ... He's a fucking s- kid, man. I like him a lot. Um, I don't know your other, the other guy, but to squat 1,000 pounds is to understand some things.

   8. CWChris Williamson2:17

      (laughs) He really does.

   9. BMBrian Mackenzie2:19

      (laughs)

   10. CWChris Williamson2:19

       He really does understand some things. I mean, m- uh, Kelly Starrett, w- we just released a- an episode with him today. We've had Dr. Stu McGill on.

   11. BMBrian Mackenzie2:26

       Yep.

   12. CWChris Williamson2:26

       So, you know, we've had a lot of these guys.

   13. BMBrian Mackenzie2:28

       Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson2:28

       And when they, when they talk about this, even, you know, Kelly and, and Stu, people that are really, really kind of at the, uh, the, the top of their game, very well respected within their fields, it's rare that I hear someone bring up breath work.

   15. BMBrian Mackenzie2:40

       (sniffs)

   16. CWChris Williamson2:40

       D- why do you think that is?

   17. BMBrian Mackenzie2:41

       Did Kelly?

   18. CWChris Williamson2:42

       Kelly didn't. Kelly didn't, no. We were talking a bit about The Game Changers.

   19. BMBrian Mackenzie2:46

       Oh.

   20. CWChris Williamson2:46

       We were talking about The Game Changers documentary and veganism. We went off on a rabbit hole down that.

   21. BMBrian Mackenzie2:51

       Oh, really?

   22. CWChris Williamson2:52

       Yeah. That was fun.

   23. BMBrian Mackenzie2:52

       Wow. Yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson2:53

       That was fun.

   25. BMBrian Mackenzie2:54

       No, I know Kel- Kelly's very much into the brea- breath work at this point. Uh, I mean, I introduced it to him, so ... Uh, you know, and I know he in- he uses it inside of his, uh, 101s and 102 courses now, so ... Um, you know, from his work. But, you know, uh, at any rate, um, Kel- Kelly's been a very close compadre of m- mine for a, a very long time (laughs) . Um, so we've kind of grown up together, but, uh, you know, it, it's interesting, uh, how I stumbled onto the breath work and, and why. Even though I was introduced to it quite some time ago, um, and it just didn't take. And, and I understand why it didn't take, um, because it was never explained in a way that, uh, made sense to especially a guy who was participating in strength and conditioning, was all about performance.

   26. CWChris Williamson3:43

       Yeah.

   27. BMBrian Mackenzie3:44

       Um-

   28. CWChris Williamson3:44

       I understand.

   29. BMBrian Mackenzie3:45

       So I, I, I entered into this world of yoga many years ago, and had a yoga practice because I was a triathlete who was getting tight (laughs) . And when you get tight, you need to loosen up. And so I went to yoga, and I ended up enjoying yoga real ... like a ton. And I chased around a yogi in Ashtanga, um, that was really good at what she was doing. But I just never paid attention to the fact that we were in ... We were utilizing a breath practice at the foundation of this practice. Like, we were controlling our breathing. We were told to control our breathing. We were told to control our breathing in specific patterns. You know, this went on and on. And I was like ... You know, I, I just remember it blowing over to a large degree. And that, in and of itself, is kind of how we all behave to a large degree. And I'm, I'll connect all this through this talk, so (laughs) like so that it makes sense for everybody else. Um, you know, but I largely just paid attention to the fact that I needed to get more flexible or more mobile at the time. And then I drifted away from yoga for a little bit, really got hardcore into endurance training, obviously wrote a couple books on that, and c- came to a pretty good understanding of some ways to tweak things for people who are busy, um, and who are injured. Uh, you know, and that, that was a big part of my career for about 10 or 12 years. And then, um, somebody handed me a training mask, and I laughed. And I was like, "This doesn't change altitude." I know how pressure works. I've actually worked on altitude training for quite some time, and this can't change press- pressure, so we're not talking about altitude with this thing. And, but nonetheless, you know, when you, you, you, you make fun of something and if you're in- you know, done enough work in your life to understand that, that you haven't ... If you're making fun of things or you're criti- criticizing things that you've never y- done, that's called ignorance. And I didn't want to remain ignorant to something (laughs) , so I put the damn thing on. And I instantly went from, like, I'm seated now to ...... I sat up and my, I engaged my diaphragm and I felt my ribs expand out and, like, my back light up, and, like, I was like, "Whoa!"

   30. CWChris Williamson6:11

       (laughs)
2. 15:00 – 30:00

   (laughs) …

   1. BMBrian Mackenzie15:00

      understand the feelings and the processes and the things that are going on. And so, the brain is where the circuitry and, and the information is being sent out. The brain works perfectly fine as long as we're connected to the physiology and understand the physiology. If we don't understand the physiology, the brain will get away from us and start overthinking, right? And so, as kids, when we come into this world, we have this thing where we're attached to a parent, and we learn, and this is, i- i- it's unavoidable, right? And, and so, from a neurobiological perspective at the top layer, the most evolved part of the brain is our neocortex. And this is where the stories, this is where some of the emotional things, like, start to trigger. But this is where the storytelling, motor control, a lot of, there's a lot of, uh, uh, dedicated area to motor control in the brain, um, to where we can do different tasks. Like, I can ta- or, like, I can talk and drink water at the same time-

   2. CWChris Williamson15:52

      (laughs)

   3. BMBrian Mackenzie15:52

      ... or think and drink w- you know, you know what I mean? I mean, just-

   4. CWChris Williamson15:54

      Yeah.

   5. BMBrian Mackenzie15:55

      ... simple, basic shit that we go throughout our day that some of us confuse ourselves in thinking it's multitasking, of which it's not. Um, so that's the storytelling side of things. Below that becomes the limbic system. This is where emotions are now concrete and set up in the system, and where I will have a reaction emotionally to something, and then the storytelling gets played into there, right? And so, it can get exacerbated. Then down below that, we have the brain stem where th- or we could call it the reptilian brain, the oldest part of the brain. And this is where the kind of evolution of everything takes place. It just so happens that our respiration centers are set up in that brain stem. So, meaning, they are on autopilot with my system, and they can respond to every emotion and every thought that I have. It also can respond to the work that I have because I have dedicated chemoreceptors set up in the carotid and the aortic valves, which are, uh, headed out to the periphery. So, that means we're on a prediction system that carbon dioxide levels that are set up in my brain stem (slaps table) react to a prediction of what's occurring in the system through chemoreceptors and baroreceptors that are in my arteries, and it's triggering me to breathe.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:15

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BMBrian Mackenzie17:16

      So, my heart rate responds to that, right? So, the heart rate's late to the game. And so, you know, th- there's a whole plethora of things in there, but how I decide to grow up and how I go through my experiences in life inevitably have a Rolodex of things on how I actually respond to breath. So, when I actually am working out, I can tell with many people where the potential trauma or problems can set up, or we can see metabolic issues even from somebody who doesn't work out as they sit and are doing things.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:53

      I get you, yeah. Um, one thing that's just come to me there as you were talking. Do you think it's strange that we don't have control over our heartbeat as humans, as evolved creatures?

   9. BMBrian Mackenzie18:03

      Well, the only way you're gonna control your heart rate is how?

   10. CWChris Williamson18:07

       Output? Movement?

   11. BMBrian Mackenzie18:10

       Nope.

   12. CWChris Williamson18:10

       Breath?

   13. BMBrian Mackenzie18:12

       You got it.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:13

       I'm just thinking, because I can either-

   15. BMBrian Mackenzie18:15

       So if I just said, "Hey, Chris, check it out."

   16. CWChris Williamson18:18

       (laughs)

   17. BMBrian Mackenzie18:19

       "Control your heart rate for me, right now." And if we l- could put you on a heart rate monitor, 'cause that's what you- y- we- most people would do. They'd go, "All right. Let me get on a heart rate monitor." Like, w- no, no, no. Can you feel your heartbeat? Right now? Without doing anything? Can you feel it?

   18. CWChris Williamson18:35

       A tiny bit. I'd have to be very tuned into my body.

   19. BMBrian Mackenzie18:39

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Took me about, it took... About three years ago, I was able to, like, I can just sit there and I can pick it up anywhere on my body if I really want to. Or I wanna do it in a toe, or a finger, or my neck-

   20. CWChris Williamson18:48

       (laughs)

   21. BMBrian Mackenzie18:48

       ... or whatever, right? But it's like, "All right. How do I lower that?" And I literally will go (breathes deeply) and my heart rate will just start to drop. I control my breathing.

   22. CWChris Williamson19:03

       I understand. I think that, that obviously shows that the heart rate is, um, at the mercy of the breath, to a large degree.

   23. BMBrian Mackenzie19:10

       Mm-hmm.

   24. CWChris Williamson19:11

       I was just thinking about whether it's, it's... I can control my breath. I can consciously-

   25. BMBrian Mackenzie19:15

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson19:16

       ... hold it, breathe quicker, breathe slower. But that's not something that we have with our digestive system. That's not something that we have with our heart. You know, that, that it would appear that from our, uh, the, the things that are inside of us, the lungs are kind of the only thing that we have that kind of control over. Is that fair to say? Or am I missing something there?

   27. BMBrian Mackenzie19:36

       Your, your breath i- i- is... So check this out. This, and this might flip your lid. (laughs)

   28. CWChris Williamson19:42

       I'm ready.

   29. BMBrian Mackenzie19:43

       Y- your breth, your breath controls all that.

   30. CWChris Williamson19:47

       Okay. Rest and digest is controlled by the breath.
3. 30:00 – 45:00

   How much of the…

   1. BMBrian Mackenzie30:00

      That was the whole point of that. And so we'll set protocols up for people based on where they need the most help.

   2. CWChris Williamson30:08

      How much of the breath control that we're talking about there is simple ability to avoid discomfort? Because someone who is in a good place, who might feel like, "I can control this gasp reflex for longer," that will contribute a little bit. But as you've mentioned as well, the CO2, the CO2 tolerance appears to be like the master of this.... is that right?

   3. BMBrian Mackenzie30:33

      Yeah. So what's the question? You mind rephrasing it or, or bringing that back again?

   4. CWChris Williamson30:36

      So how much can be trained in terms of someone's ability to breathe that is, uh, separate to the way that their physiology is put together at that time? So is there someone who's very good at controlling their breath but still might be in this-

   5. BMBrian Mackenzie30:48

      That ... (laughs) Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that's, that's the interesting thing, and this is why, this is where my work really diverted, because I was running around with guys like Wim Hof. I was literally pretty close with Wim Hof. Um, and there's nothing ... Like, Wim's got a great thing. He's doing great work. Um.

   6. CWChris Williamson31:04

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BMBrian Mackenzie31:04

      You know, uh, there's other ... Like, I've gone and participated and learned about Tummo, um, many of the, you know, yoga practices, et cetera, et cetera. Um, holotropic, um, like the, the Buteyko, um. Like, there's a lot of methods out there, right? And unfortunately, each and one, uh, each and every one of these methods is making claims that it doesn't do in some fashion.

   8. CWChris Williamson31:29

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BMBrian Mackenzie31:29

      In some fashions they do, in other fashions ... And th- this is the problem with, you know, getting caught up in, you know, and, and understanding our attachments to things and, you know, thinking that, you know, we've got an answer, and the answer is you. You're the answer. You're the only answer there is. It's not your breathing. Your breathing's not an answer either. It's just an indicator of something, right? And so our abil- ability biologically is, is, is not even close to being tapped, and I, I think that be true even with something like, you know, what happened with the eleoid. But going back to this is it's ... I started seeing that not everybody reacts to the same protocols in the same way.

   10. CWChris Williamson32:09

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BMBrian Mackenzie32:10

       And so it became a, there is not a one-size-fit-all, fits all. There's a, you know, there's a, a, more or less kind of a fingerprint to some degree, and although we can bucket people and categorize them in specific ways or, you know, things that are going on, like, "Hey, this guy d- is angry about stuff, and that guy's angry about stuff, and she's angry about stuff, and, you know, she's more emotional, and he's more emotional about things." Like, like, meaning depending on how you emotionally handle things, there are gonna be certain patterns that are gonna set certain, uh, things off and connect you to certain things. So we had to s- I had to start ... I was literally running around fingerprinting people with breath, breath protocols, because not everybody was responding the same way, and that wasn't a very, you know, viable thing for helping people. I was, sure, I was helping specific people, but I was burning myself out, and there was no way I was ever going to be able to do this by myself. So build an app and build an algorithm that worked with that, and we understood how to do that. So we, we, we literally customized things to people, but then it's like, okay, well, a lot of these people like to engage in performance, and they should, because you should have a movement practice. Any human being that does not have a movement practice is not being a human being. Um, we, we are designed to move. Now, m- getting neurotic about that to the degree that, like, I have to be this specific thing or whatever, that, that's where it gets crazy. But, nonetheless, applying this inside of movement, the framework of movement, becomes the next catalyst in how we do things. And the base layer of that is, hey, for the first few weeks, we're going to just be nasal breathing. You can't go anything past nasal breathing. And for most people, that's such a kick in the balls-

   12. CWChris Williamson33:53

       (laughs)

   13. BMBrian Mackenzie33:53

       ... that it's like, "I don't wanna do it." Like, my ego's not ready for that check." And, you know, you take a power lifter that squats 1,000 pounds, I can tell you right now, if they've not done any breath work, their CO2 tolerance is shit.

   14. CWChris Williamson34:04

       (laughs)

   15. BMBrian Mackenzie34:04

       That's a massive, massive carbon print. You're carrying so much l- lean muscle, so much muscle, but you don't do ... You know, most of these people don't do enough of the kind of aerobic efficiency work, and, and that's a scary word to guys like that and gals, because they think that they, they're scared of aer- And it's like, that's not what I'm talking about. What I'm talking about is the thing that actually makes you survive, like, aerobic metabolism is what makes you survive. So when you're resting, you should be pr- high-level aerobic, and yet you see these guys and gals on oxygen tanks and, like, breathing like ... (breathes rapidly) And it ... That's, that's not necessary. It's not. And, and it's not healthy.

   16. CWChris Williamson34:52

       What's that due to?

   17. BMBrian Mackenzie34:52

       That's, that's an indication-

   18. CWChris Williamson34:53

       What's that due to?

   19. BMBrian Mackenzie34:55

       C- po- poor CO2 tolerance.

   20. CWChris Williamson34:57

       Okay. And that is exacerbated-

   21. BMBrian Mackenzie34:58

       Yeah.

   22. CWChris Williamson34:58

       ... by people who are high mass, high muscle mass, heavy weight?

   23. BMBrian Mackenzie35:03

       It's a car- hu- look, look, lo- h- what's the demand for oxygen with more muscle mass?

   24. CWChris Williamson35:08

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BMBrian Mackenzie35:10

       It's up higher.

   26. CWChris Williamson35:11

       Yeah.

   27. BMBrian Mackenzie35:11

       So I need more oxygen in or- because the m- like, look, like, you know, so I've got all this tissue. Well, when I don't have enough oxygen, or I'm not efficient enough (breathes rapidly) , about four or five breaths in, you're gonna start dipping that needle more towards those anaerobe, like, like more towards the, the, the, the demand for, the tissue's demand for more glucose, more glycogen. Okay? The nervous system and brain are pr- are, are stuck with glucose and glycogen. There's no, there's no ifs, ands, buts about that, right? But fat is what the muscles, like, can use. So the more fat we're using with, with tissue, the better, right? And so the better we get the mitochondria functioning, the better off we are, and there's no reason why an NFL lineman and a gymnast or an endurance athlete can't all be aerobically efficient.

   28. CWChris Williamson36:07

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BMBrian Mackenzie36:07

       It's just different thresholds at which point ... Like, sure the foot- lineman's going to be much more of an anaerobic athlete, like much more high level s- you know, sh- you know, sprinter type explosive, you know, and so is the gymnast to some degree is, you know, pulling it back a little bit more, and then it's like we got the endurance athlete where you're like, you know, all slow twitch, right? And it's all the same thing in terms of efficiency aerobically. It's like, so if I got an, uh, if I've got an endurance athlete who's going out on an, uh, uh, a-... high-level aerobic ride, but they got to open their mouth, I can tell you right now, they're not as aerobic as they could be. They might be somewhat aerobic, but they are not as aerobic as they could be, and they are not utilizing the system in a way that they could. With- th- this is literally factual things we have tested that are now going into read- that, that have raised some eyebrows enough to go, "Wow, we didn't really look at it like this. We should really be testing this." So this is what's happening.

   30. CWChris Williamson37:07

       I get it. So let's take it-
4. 45:00 – 1:00:00

   Why do we then?…

   1. BMBrian Mackenzie45:00

      horse, they will not breathe out of their mouth. They just have a bit in their mouth. They breathe through their nostrils. They literally will not breathe out of their mouth.

   2. CWChris Williamson45:10

      Why do we then?

   3. BMBrian Mackenzie45:11

      Because we... Uh, you know, it's interesting. We have, um, done real well at progressing ourselves culturally through comfort and convenience. And in that process, we've more or less stressed ourselves more than we actually needed to. So by that I mean this. Uh, there's a book written in 1867, I believe. I, I forget the date. Um, but George Catlin wrote a book called Shut Your Mouth and Save Your Life. And he wrote this book as a historian who was a lawyer from England who came over to the States, which was basically North America and South America at the time, studied about a h- a million and a half indigenous cultures and civilized world. He was, uh... The biggest thing he picked up on was the fact that indi- in indigenous culture, they did not breathe through their mouth. Rarely, when, and when they talk, when they spoke, they spoke with intent. They did not speak too much. They meant what they said, they said what they meant. When they slept, they slept with their mouths shut. When they hunted, they hunted with their mouths shut. They did everything they could, including when children came off of the nipple, mothers would shut the mouth of the child for fear of the black mouth. Because not only was the white eye called the white eye or round eye-

   4. CWChris Williamson46:51

      Mm-hmm.

   5. BMBrian Mackenzie46:52

      ... he was called the black mouth. And the reason he was called black mouth is because his mouth looked disgusting. And why would that be? Well, look at what we started doing culture, look at what, what we started doing. I mean, we're drinking more alcohol, we were, sugar started to become, agriculture started to kick in. All of these things of convenience started to happen, right? And here's a culture of people who pay attention to nature. What is nature? Physiology. That is literally one of the definitions of nati- uh, uh, physiology, is nature, origin. And thus paying attention to the feelings of nature and what's going on. So what happens when I feel when I breathe through my mouth, right? Well, I get ramped up. I turn on. I speak. If I go speak somewhere and I talk just for an hour, I'm on. Like, I feel like I'm on. If I speak for a entire day, I'm exhausted. I don't go work out. I try not to go to dinner with people afterwards.

   6. CWChris Williamson47:50

      Oh.

   7. BMBrian Mackenzie47:50

      Why am I so exhausted? I'm blowing off a ton of carbon dioxide. I'm more sympathetic dominant. I'm actually using less of the fat, so I'm use... I'm not as aerobic e- as, as I could be. Even though I'm still slightly aerobic, I'm not as aerobic as I could be, right? So it's learning those waves. They felt that shit, man.

   8. CWChris Williamson48:09

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BMBrian Mackenzie48:10

      They felt it. We don't feel. We le- how we have these things in front of us and we're getting stimulated and we've got all these kids that are going batshit crazy because they don't have recess anymore, they're told from playing, they're told what to do, they're told how they're gonna learn, then they're given infinite possibilities on a machine to play games and keep them occupied because mom and dad don't wanna deal with them, and then they've got anxiety because of this. They don't have anxiety. They've got proper stimulation from being overstimulated. They've got physiology that's running amok and they don't understand it. And this has been, by and large the, what's going on with us even those of us that like to train a lot.

   10. CWChris Williamson48:51

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BMBrian Mackenzie48:51

       Like, I mean, I'm on, I'm talking to you, I'm on. I need to shi- when I'm done here, I'm feeling this. I feel it. So I've gotten to the point where I feel all this stuff and I'm paying attention. If I, my mouth opens when I'm asleep at night, I wake up.

   12. CWChris Williamson49:06

       Why?

   13. BMBrian Mackenzie49:07

       Why would I wake up if my mouth opens-

   14. CWChris Williamson49:12

       I don't know.

   15. BMBrian Mackenzie49:12

       ... based on everything we- I've just kind of gone over?

   16. CWChris Williamson49:15

       (sighs) Because you become more stressed?

   17. BMBrian Mackenzie49:18

       Bingo. I'm now slipping more into sympathetic and I'm (claps hands) turning myself on.

   18. CWChris Williamson49:23

       Mm. Okay. I understand.

   19. BMBrian Mackenzie49:25

       How many of us are trying to sleep in this high sympathetic activity f- state, right? And I'm also not as aerobic. And then, oh shit, I've got sleep apnea, so now I'm holding my breath in an awkward fashion and (breathes heavily) like I've got all... Like, weird. Like, what are you paying atten- Are, are, like, you need medication and a fucking... You need a, a, a mask to wear at night? I've got friends who do this. And they refuse to do breath work. And I'm like, "Dude, it's your choice."

   20. CWChris Williamson49:52

       Mm.

   21. BMBrian Mackenzie49:53

       I've got more DMs and pe- I don't even talk about this. I don't write about this stuff publicly. Like, I don't go out and go, "I'm gonna solve your problems." No, here, start with some breathing protocols, start rearranging your training, then start feeling what's going on in your body. You're gonna default to places that you can. Is it weird that George Catlin was also in a book that I've read and the- I'm the only person who's caught this so far, right? Only because I've read this other book. It's a book called Empire of the Summer Moon, and it is about the Comanche Indians, who are arguably th- the most war-driven tribe of people that have almost existed. They're, they're in comparison to the Mongols and like, um, you know, a lot of the stuff that happened then, but they were very, very gnarly. They were so gnarly that had the Colt revolver not ended up in the hands of a few young white boys from Texas called Texas rangers, they would have... Th- this world, th- this country would be a very different place right now. They knew how to fight off of horseback in a way that no other culture had understood, and they couldn't combat it. So shooting a rifle with one shot was no good, right? And so, this book was written, and there was a guy around. There was a number of historians that were there that were interviewed, and one of those historians throughout this book that was written about was George Catlin. And so there's this guy that's there, and the biggest thing he picked up on was that the people who were of the pla- uh, of the Earth, that were literally living on the Earth, that were living in plains that everybody feared to cross because they had no idea how to navigate, they had no idea how to do things, and there was this murderous culture of people who did not want them near anything, in- including other tribes. Like, other tribes feared the Comanche, right? Like, they were feared. And it, it's a fantastic read. But the fact of the matter is, is I'm able to now connect through reading physiology and then reading about literally... Hey, George Catlin wrote this book in the 6th and 1800s about this... Holy crap, there it is. What is history? It's literally telling us what's going on w- like, wh- there's lessons to be learned about all this stuff and what people were doing. You think, you think a Comanche Indian who knew how to navigate the land could get onto his horse and ride for three or four days straight with no food basically or limited food supply and water supply? Um, what do you think the physiology of a human being like that is? Like, literally could survive in freezing cold temperatures, navigate land and storms? Like, where do you think we're at culturally right now? We're worried about squatting 1,000 pounds-

   22. CWChris Williamson52:47

       (laughs)

   23. BMBrian Mackenzie52:47

       ... and running a two-hour marathon. I don't think we're anywhere close to what our biological potential is. I think we missed the boat. I think we're confused. I think we think that technology is this great thing that's gonna get us into the future, and it's not. It's gonna, s- just gonna lead us right back to our own biology and going, "Shit, we're mimicking all this technology after stuff we internally are able to do." It's why I asked you, what would you, how, what, what, what's your hear- how do you control your heart rate and how do you feel that? "Well, I'd have to be calm for a minute, and then I could really pick up on it." Yeah. Well, guess what? You can feel that at any moment you want. Just gotta spend the time to get back to that.

   24. CWChris Williamson53:24

       I understand. Yeah, I, it's interesting what you said there about when you spend a whole day talking, right? So I do coaching calls.

   25. BMBrian Mackenzie53:30

       Yeah.

   26. CWChris Williamson53:30

       I g- I coach a, a-

   27. BMBrian Mackenzie53:32

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson53:32

       ... sales company in Germany, and every time I'm done, let's say it's maybe three hours, and I've been talking to these guys, and it's a conversation. It's at least 50/50 between me and them. It's not all me. But once I'm finished, let's say I've done three hours, four hours of, of talking, a little bit of water in between, a little bit of chill or whatever, after I've done that, I'm absolutely gassed. Like, once I'm done, I'm like, "Oh, I'm really tired." And I, I wasn't really too sure. I thought, "Well, maybe it's 'cause cognitively it's quite demanding. I'm trying to link these things together. It's because I'm really putting myself into the person I'm speaking to," or whatever it might be. And your suggestion here is that one of the principal reasons for this is going to be that I'm just inhaling and exhaling quite a bit of air quite a lot.

   29. BMBrian Mackenzie54:17

       Well, you're bre- yeah. Y- y- yeah, you're on, right? And so you're getting stimulated. But you're getting a stimulation that you're automatically... Like, you're falling into autopilot on because you're talking. I'm talking, right? So we're... I'm, I'm ramping myself up. Not only am I ramping myself up and getting into what I'm doing, I'm getting focused and I'm being engaged with you, but the byproduct of that becomes my breath. My breath is the instant reaction to that. It, it, it's, it's the first respondent. There's only two, two things we can do in order to regulate or, or stimulate autonomic control consciously. That is our breath and our vision. So I can choose not to look at you right now and I can look at the end of the room and I can go into peripheral vision and I can downshift myself. I can go outside and look at the fucking... Look at nature, look at trees, right? How many people freak out looking at a sunset?None of 'em. Why? 'Cause it's math. No, it's beautiful. Yeah, beautiful is there, but that's not math. Math is the algorithm that enters the light waves that enter your eyes and open you up to go whomp. And it drops you into parasympathetic.

   30. CWChris Williamson55:35

       It's interesting you're out of sight.
5. 1:00:00 – 1:06:12

   (laughs) …

   1. BMBrian Mackenzie1:00:00

      this chick just takes off running, man (laughs) .

   2. CWChris Williamson1:00:03

      (laughs)

   3. BMBrian Mackenzie1:00:03

      Like, she's trying to win it, you know? And one of our coaches, Danny Yager, who's phenomenal, um, he runs CrossFit Kingfield out in Minnesota. And he's, like, he watches this and then he sees a bunch of guys. So there's a lot of people there in, in the warfare community. And so there's a lot of, you know, dudes and people who are, like, wanna win, right? It's like, "What are you trying to win?" So Danny stop it, and he goes, "Hey, if you think we brought you here to actually see how long you could hold your breath while farmer walking kettlebells, you don't understand why you're here. You don't understand what we're doing. What is it you're feeling when you're holding your breath and walking these things? W- what's... If you're trying to win the farmer carry holding your breath, what is it you're winning here? There is no reward." It's, we're here to experience something and understand what this thing can do and teach us. "Well, I thought I was gonna be able to carry those kettlebells a lot further." Or, "I thought I was only gonna be able to carry 'em a few steps, and I went further than I did." Awesome. Now we're starting to get somewhere.... versus, "Oh, I gotta win this." Like, win what? What are we winning? That's called ego. And, and you just removed yourself from understanding all purpose of, of training. All training, at the foundation of training, is to make better decisions under stress. Carbon dioxide is the metabolic stress messenger of the human body. Done deal.

   4. CWChris Williamson1:01:50

      I love it. I love it. Brian, today's been fantastic. I really appreciate you coming on. Anyone who wants to check out some more of your work, where should they head? We've talked about The Art of Breath. How does that relate to the State app? Is the State app a part of that? No.

   5. BMBrian Mackenzie1:02:04

      Doesn't. Separate. No. State app's sh- uh, a bit, a bit diff- um, uh, the State app's separate. The, you know, a lot of the stuff with the business is gonna change real soon.

   6. CWChris Williamson1:02:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. BMBrian Mackenzie1:02:13

      Um, in fact, the whole name, everything's gonna change. We're changing that so it'll all kind of fit and be seamless, so it makes more sense (laughs) to the world.

   8. CWChris Williamson1:02:22

      (laughs)

   9. BMBrian Mackenzie1:02:22

      Um, that being said, uh, The Art of Breath is a component of what we teach with- inside of Power Speed Endurance. It's a performance-based seminar. There's a 101 that we teach around the world, but we also have it online, so that can be found on Power Speed Endurance. The State app is, you can find each app, whether it's Android or iOS, on shiftstate.io. Anything about me or, or if you wanna get in contact with me, or, you know, whatever, can be found on brianmackenzie.com or you can go through Power Speed Endurance.

   10. CWChris Williamson1:02:55

       Amazing. I, uh, I, I have to say, it was, uh, a listener who recommended that I, that I check out, uh, the State app and, uh, get in touch with yourself, and I think I found the new thing that I'm going to add into my morning and evening routine. I've been looking for what it's gonna be. I've stopped doing, uh, ROMWOD for the time being, and I do miss some of the breath control. I miss that parasympathetic activation. I'm still doing my meditation on the morning, I'm reading, I'm doing other bits and pieces, Stu McGill's Big Three, but I'm not, I'm not feeling myself in the body quite so much with that. It's very, it's very visceral. It's very kind of, um, transactional, that I'm doing it for the, for the return on, on what I know it needs to do to my spine health. Uh, and I think-

   11. BMBrian Mackenzie1:03:36

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson1:03:37

       ... I think the next, I think the, between now and Christmas, it'll be, it'll be me doing that. So I'll report back. I'll keep you updated and I'll, uh, I'll let the listeners know as well.

   13. BMBrian Mackenzie1:03:45

       Please do. Please do. Yeah. Look at, like, I, I would do the either feel alert or be present protocol. If you're g- if you're s- doing, doing your meditation in the morning-

   14. CWChris Williamson1:03:54

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BMBrian Mackenzie1:03:54

       ... do the breathing beforehand. There's a reason why breathing is at the foundation of every meditative practice.

   16. CWChris Williamson1:04:00

       That's interesting. So you'd say, for a lot of people that are listening, maybe we'll have a meditative practice in their morning routine. You'd say, "Do the breath work before that"? And then w- how, how would you program that in an evening? Immediately before bed?

   17. BMBrian Mackenzie1:04:10

       I- i- if you have an active sitting ... Yeah. If you have an active sitting meditative practice-

   18. CWChris Williamson1:04:15

       Mm-hmm.

   19. BMBrian Mackenzie1:04:16

       ... just be clear that if you want that brought up to the next level, add breathing before that. If you want it really brought up to the next level, use the State app so that you can fingerprint your, the rhythms that work with you. Like, so your app's different, gonna be different than mine.

   20. CWChris Williamson1:04:33

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   21. BMBrian Mackenzie1:04:34

       Based on to- you know, how you actually handle carbon dioxide, cognitive, and, and how you handle emotional stress. So, that can give you an, a ramp in. I can't tell you how many people who come to me who are like, "I, I can't meditate. It's just, I don't have the patience. I don't have this. I don't have that." You're already there. But it's like, I show 'em breathing, and the fact is, is breathing is, uh, controlled breathing is meditation. Literally.

   22. CWChris Williamson1:04:59

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BMBrian Mackenzie1:05:00

       It ... You'll get there. It ... Just give it some time. Right? So, so use that beforehand. In the evening, anything less than two hours before you go to bed.

   24. CWChris Williamson1:05:09

       Mm-hmm.

   25. BMBrian Mackenzie1:05:09

       Okay? Using the fall asleep protocol. That'll downshift you and change the sleep. You'll, you should probably see some increases, definitely in deep sleep, but also potentially in the REM cycle.

   26. CWChris Williamson1:05:24

       Fantastic. I've also got, uh, my new Whoop band coming, as the last one is, uh, has lapsed. So we'll, uh, I'll actually be able to track that and see if that's making any difference as well, which will be, which will be interesting. But Brian, today's been absolutely awesome. To the people that are listening, you already know what to do. The links to everything that we've spoken about, the State app, shiftstate.io, Power Speed Endurance, and Brian's website will be linked in the show notes below. Go hassle him online if, uh, if you (laughs) need to get some more info out of him. Um, but Brian, it's been, it's been fantastic, man. I'm really looking forwards to getting in my breath work.

   27. BMBrian Mackenzie1:05:55

       Right on, Chris. Thanks for having me, man.

   28. NANarrator1:05:59

       (techno music plays)

Episode duration: 1:06:12