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How To Fortify Your Mind And Body - 7X Bodybuilding World Champion Phil Heath (4K)

Phil Heath is a professional bodybuilder, 7-time Mr. Olympia winner, entrepreneur and an author. Phil Heath is one of the greatest and most dominant bodybuilders of all time. But what does it take to win Mr Olympia for 7 consecutive years and just what are the inner workings of his mind that led him to success? Expect to learn Phil’s reflections on his rivalry with Kai Greene, what it was like being a part of the Generation Iron documentary, how to improve your relationship with pain, how to conquer small impulses, why Phil used far fewer PEDs than everyone thinks, his 10 best exercises for building muscle, what he thinks of Chris Bumstead, his opinion on the current field of Olympia competitors and much more…⁣ Sponsors: Get a Free Sample Pack of all LMNT Flavours with your first box at https://www.drinklmnt.com/modernwisdom (automatically applied at checkout) Get 50% off your first Factor Meals box by going to to https://factormeals.com/MW50 (discount automatically applied at checkout) Get 10% discount on all Gymshark’s products at https://bit.ly/sharkwisdom (use code: MW10) Extra Stuff: Get my free Reading List of 100 books to read before you die → https://chriswillx.com/books/ To support me on Patreon (thank you): https://www.patreon.com/modernwisdom #philheath #bodybuilding #fitness - 00:00 Where Phil’s Name ‘The Gift’ Came From 02:46 How Phil Developed Bulletproof Self-Belief 06:26 The Inspiring Lessons Phil Learned From His First Show 15:08 The Importance of Giving Yourself Permission to Be You 22:47 Do You Really Want High Standards or Pity? 28:22 Phil’s Relationship With Pain 37:35 The Experience of Filming Generation Iron 46:20 Phil’s Rivalry with Kai Greene 1:02:42 What Does Phil Think of Chris Bumstead? 1:09:24 Explaining the Use of Drugs & Longevity in Bodybuilding 1:20:58 Why Phil Won’t Use Tren or Insulin 1:30:27 The Key to Phil’s Successful Training 1:37:31 If Phil Could Only Do 10 Exercises for the Rest of His Life 1:47:12 How Being an Only Child Impacted Phil’s Career 1:50:05 The Impact of Reverse Role Models 1:58:10 How Influential is Chance in Avoiding Life’s Pitfalls 2:05:50 Where to Find Phil - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostPhil Heathguest
Aug 28, 20232h 8mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:46

    Where Phil’s Name ‘The Gift’ Came From

    1. CW

      Phil Heath, welcome to the show.

    2. PH

      What's happening? (laughs)

    3. CW

      Good to see you, man. You look great.

    4. PH

      Yeah, you too. Thank you. Thank you, I appreciate it. Thanks for having me on.

    5. CW

      Where did the name The Gift come from?

    6. PH

      Uh, well, it wasn't me, okay? It was an old roommate that I had, um, I was already getting into the sport of bodybuilding, and he was like, "Bro, I have the perfect nickname for you." I was like, "What is it?" He was like, "The Gift." I was like, "Seriously? You couldn't have picked a better name than this?" Like, everybody's gonna be like, "This guy is conceited, he's arrogant, he's cocky," this, that, and the other. He was like, "No, no, no, no. Think deeper. You're a former Division I athlete, you're intelligent, you're college educated, you have a great physique, and you know how to speak to those audiences. No one's ever seen this." And I was like, "Yeah, man, but I'm not even pro yet." He goes, "It doesn't matter." He's like, "I've been around..." 'Cause he had competed before, and he s- he's actually from Cyprus. So I, I feel like him being European and seeing more bodybuilders over there and just in that area because of, uh, bodybuilding being a much bigger sport overseas than it is here in the States, um, he just saw talent. And he was like, "This is you, and your gift is to give." And then I was like, "Ah, that's what I'm gonna use it as." Allow people to form their own opinion initially, but that's based on their own stuff. Even like me, I was like, "Oh, yeah, I think it's this," when really it's not. It's about what I can give to you. A gift is something I can give to you, so then you do what? You have happiness, you have joy, you have peace. Um, and I use that, you know, I use the gifts that I have, and obviously in bodybuilding, you know, I did some incredible things. But it was about how I got there, so then I can help other people get to their, you know, champion podium, to go through their levels of adversity, to create better moments of triumph. And I love the nickname, because I feel like we all have a gift. You have one, I have one, everyone has one, but we have to face those fears as well, and understand that we're only as good as the tests. Are we truly battle-tested? So it's like, what makes a person so smart? What makes a person, um, you know, we always see like, oh, well, Shaquille O'Neal hit a lot of free throws by himself, but when the lights were on, maybe not as much, right? Um, so you can't say like, "Oh, yeah, um, this guy, he's so badass." It's like, no, man, that gift is only as good as it's been tested, and it's been forged and fortified over and over and over again. So, for me it's just, it takes on a greater meaning than just like, "Oh, yeah, he thinks he's God's gift to this." It's like, well, no, I can be if I pour into myself and be willing to pour into others.

  2. 2:46 – 6:26

    How Phil Developed Bulletproof Self-Belief

    1. PH

    2. CW

      So 17 years old you do this interview, and somebody asks you whether or not you're going to make it into the NBA. And you said, "I don't know about the NBA-"

    3. PH

      Ah, you suck. (laughs)

    4. CW

      "... but I know that I'm gonna be pro at something."

    5. PH

      Yeah.

    6. CW

      Where... At the age of 17, playing basketball as a 5-foot-9, 180-pound guy-

    7. PH

      Yeah, man.

    8. CW

      ... where do you get the self-belief from that you knew... 'Cause you, despite people's assumptions, and I really wanna get into this, uh, it's not like you came from some privileged background.

    9. PH

      Right.

    10. CW

      It's not like you had things... Whatever the opposite of a silver platter is-

    11. PH

      Right.

    12. CW

      ... it was kind of that scenario.

    13. PH

      Yeah.

    14. CW

      How do you develop self-belief at an age where you only have minimal evidence that something's gonna come of it?

    15. PH

      Well, understanding who is pouring into you. Mom, stepfather, even my father poured into me. The coaches that I had poured into me. I had friends that were highly competitive that, you know, forced me... And that's the key word, is competitive nature. Like I said, I grew up in Seattle, Washington, so you gotta think, at that time, I was born in '79, so just in my neighborhood, we had guys that are now pros in something. Um, I was neighbors with, uh, Nate and Kevin Burleson. I was neighbors to Nate Robinson, to Jamal Crawford, to Jason Terry, to, you know, all these different athletes, right? And we're talking about just the guys that you may recognize. What about the other ones that didn't make it? So, my whole journey was about finding who I am and not being afraid to be who I am, who I'm supposed to be, and having that killer instinct. So I had a coach by the name of Mike Bethea, and he's still at my high school to this day. And h- he was probably the Bobby Knight of basketball back then in high school sports. So like, will yell at you, will curse at you, will damn near hit you upside the head, right? Totally different than what we can get away with today. (laughs) But you know what it was? He just wanted to pull it out of you. Like, you know, like some people can really see something within you, and they know that you're being really timid, and they can't whip yet but they wanna like shake you. It's like the coach that grabs the face mask of the guy and says, "You can do this, but I gotta yell at... I, I just, I'm losing my mind here. You're, you're messing up, and I know you can succeed." So, you know, at that given point in time, you know, I got the opportunity to get a Division I scholarship to the University of Denver, signed that letter of intent, and then I was interviewed by the Seattle Times. And something just came over me of like, okay, you already beat the odds. You're f- you're five foot nine, and I was actually 155 pounds at the time, and... But I already beat these odds. I was a guy that was already dunking a basketball. I was already running a 4.34. You know, I was doing... I was a state tr- you know, 100 meter track athlete, you know? Like, I've already defeated a lot of odds, like... But I had to be real, and growing up in Seattle, you understand like what else is around you, so like you have basketball but you also have Microsoft. You're seeing more millionaires come out on Microsoft than there are in the NBA. So, I guess just through repetition in my mind of always having something, uh, to carry you beyond athletics, with academics and stuff, um, 'cause that's my parents, you know, they always forced that on me.... always have something to fall back on, right? Still to this day when I hear this, I'm like, man, that was prophetic. That was not from me, man. That was from source above. It was like, y- he was telling the truth. You may not be pro in basketball, but you're definitely gonna be pro at something, and I became that.

    16. CW

      So, I think a

  3. 6:26 – 15:08

    The Inspiring Lessons Phil Learned From His First Show

    1. CW

      lot of people hearing that plus the gift as the nickname, plus this illustrious career of seven Olympia wins, and- and everything else that you've achieved would presume, okay, this guy, even if not everything was handed to him, psychologically he had all of the tools ready from the beginning, from before the beginning-

    2. PH

      Right.

    3. CW

      ... to be able to do this. Can you take me through the day of your first show-

    4. PH

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      ... and what it felt like to step out on stage?

    6. PH

      Oh, well, the night before I asked all my teammates, 'cause I was still living in the basketball house, to not bring the party back to the house. Of course, they did. It's about 2:00 in the morning, you know. I'm over here being awakened 'cause I was living in the- living in the basement, right? And I have forgiven them, but, you know, (laughs) like, I have to be realistic. They were gonna do it anyway, right? College girls, you know, red cups, you know. (laughs) It's just loud music.

    7. CW

      Yep.

    8. PH

      But then realizing I'm in it. I did all the work, remove myself from this situation, go to your car, which is parked in the garage, sleep in there. You still have a car. You can still sleep in there. Woke up, and my friend, Josh Crandall, picked me up and drove me to Boulder, and I'm literally telling him, "If I don't win this damn thing, man," like, "I don't know if I could do this again." Because so much work for someone that could tarnish this. It's not like basketball games, like, where you can go out, you can drink, you can party and all this. I'd still go play in a game. Bodybuilding, no way, and I learned firsthand, right? So, going into that first competition, you know, walking in there, there was a couple things. Of course, I'm already tired from last night, and then also realizing that I don't really know what I don't know. So, I- I've... Just because I watched a bodybuilding show in person and on a VHS tape, watching Ronnie Coleman win the '98 Olympia, it's different when you're there signing up, putting your name on there, buying your NPC card and all this other stuff. You're now, you're... What are you gonna do? You're not looking at yourself. You're looking at everybody else. And with you looking at everybody else, you forget who you are so much that, I'm like, "Whoa, this guy. Whoa, he's got all these muscles, and he's vascular, and this, that, and the other. Uh, looks like he's on PEDs or something." My friend goes, "He is."

    9. CW

      (laughs)

    10. PH

      And I'm like, "What? I'm not... Like, why didn't you tell me this?" I was like, "Man, you asshole. Like, what's going on?" And he goes, "You would've never done it if I would've told you that you were going against people like this." I was like, "But..." And he was like, "Just be chill, man. You look great." Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure. So, of course, I was leaving with a lot of anxiety and whatnot. So, as I was, uh, walking on that stage I thought, "I need to dress myself with a cloak of, like, armor, like, of, like, strength." So, that's when I was like, uh, you know, walking out like this, like the Terminator. That's what I was thinking about. Just walk out like the Terminator, like, be strong, be this, when really, I was just looking like an idiot. But I was looking at, uh, looking like a guy that was totally insecure. And that false bravado was definitely on stage, and everybody started laughing. But now I'm thinking, "Oh, my gosh. I'm so exposed" (laughs) "that they can see the false bravado, too. Oh, man. What's going on?" It was the fact that they had seen everybody else, and I'm gonna win this whole damn show, but I don't know that. So, I'm paying attention to the negative beliefs more than the actual reality that I've done the work, I'm gonna win this thing, and now it's time to own all of it. So, it wasn't about to the point by a lady that yelled out, "Smile, you're beautiful," that I realized, like, "Oh, wow. Okay. Now, I can be in my own." So, I did the novice and the open, so then I could get more practice because I recognize that if you only do one category, you're up there for, you know... It feels like an- an eternity, but you're only up there for, like, a minute, and then you're gone. I did, you know, the open. I- I did the novice and the open, so it all worked out, but after that prejudging, I was like, "Holy smokes. Like, how exhilarating is this?" So, then coming back, then I had, like, more of a smile, and then I'm like-

    11. CW

      You got the swagger?

    12. PH

      Yes. Now, I got to take the swagger from basketball, transfer that into bodybuilding all in my first show. And I won that whole damn show, man. I- I- I beat them all down. And what was really cool was that was the- the same evening that I met Jay Cutler, as he was in his pursuit of becoming Mr. Olympia. So, I remember taking a picture with him backstage. I was like, "So, hey, man, what do you weigh?" He's like, "I'm 290."

    13. CW

      (laughs)

    14. PH

      And I was like, and I was like, "Well, I'm 190. Now what?" You know?

    15. CW

      (laughs)

    16. PH

      So- so, we... You know, I'm sure you probably have seen the photo with he and I, you know, and that's how that came about.

    17. CW

      So, the- the- the lesson that I love from this is, there's a little bit of a juxtaposition going on here, which on one hand, massive capacity-

    18. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      ... massive capability, uh, self-belief, but also crippling insufficiency. And that, from somebody that's won all of the world championships, that's so well-known, millions of followers, inspired lots of people, I think it's so important for normal people who, as of yet, haven't fulfilled the dreams that they want to-

    20. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... to be able to understand just how visceral the fear, and the embarrassment, and the shame, and the uncertainty of any glory at all-

    22. PH

      Right.

    23. CW

      And like, the- the- the fact that it took some little lady in the crowd to shout, "Smile, you're beautiful," to give you the license to believe in work that you'd already done.

    24. PH

      Right.

    25. CW

      I think there's so much...It's- th- that's- uh, as inspiring of a story as winning the Olympia seven times, I think.

    26. PH

      Right. Yeah.

    27. CW

      Because with the future, knowing where you were going to go-

    28. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. CW

      ... but seeing the lack of self-belief, it gives people who right now do not have that degree of self-belief-

    30. PH

      Right.

  4. 15:08 – 22:47

    The Importance of Giving Yourself Permission to Be You

    1. CW

    2. PH

      Well, you have to- you have to, uh... And I agree. I mean, you have to expose the lies. Expose all the lies that you tell yourself. Now- now, let's be clear. We have, what, thousands and thousands of years of DNA stored within us? So, some of those stories aren't yours. Could be your parents', could be grandparents', uncle. Some- something, right? Expose those lies, man (sighs) . I've learned now, you know, uh, growing up, that, okay, I am good enough. Why am I talking down to myself? Don't I want a championship moment? Don't I- don't I deserve that? And all I have to do is give myself permission to be me. And yeah, I may fail. But what drives me is that a lot of the time, we're always, "Oh, what's my calling?" And even in that moment on that stage, right, where I still re- remember the lady's name. Her name was Margaret. She gave me permission to be me. Where are we giving ourselves permission to be our best version of self? You have to give yourself permission every day. You just woke up every day and then didn't even... First of all, you didn't even thank your body for putting up with your ass. So, I should give myself permission and almost declare it every day. Like, "I declare that I'm gonna go out here and make a difference in my life. I declare that I'm gonna go do this cardio that I freaking don't like. I declare that I'm gonna eat better. I declare that I'm actually going to look at my wife in the eye and tell her something sweet, pick up the kids, you know, pet the dog," whatever. Say hello to that one employee that, "You know what? Typically, I don't really like 'em. But today, I'm gonna do something different, 'cause I'm gonna change the pattern. I'm gonna change the pattern, and I'm gonna make it work for me, because this life is worth living." So, I give myself permission to be great. And I think what happens is, by giving yourself permission, other people see that, and they get frustrated, because they're like, "How did he figure it out?"

    3. CW

      Mm.

    4. PH

      'Cause all I did was answer the call to my own greatness. Your ass is still wondering where the call is coming from. It's already there. Just pick up the phone and say, "I- I accept." When we don't accept that calling, it then goes to somebody else. Someone else got- someone else got... "Hey, who's gonna pick up that phone? Someone gonna get that?" "Well, it's your- for you, Phil-" "No, uh..." Oh shit, it's for me. If I don't pick it up in time, the way this works, it's gonna go to somebody else, and then they're gonna get the championship moment and... You and I both have seen this, whether it been happening in our lives or someone else's life. When they don't pick it up, if you don't pick it up, oh shit. That's when you don't get the girl. Ch- you know, you don't get the date for prom that you really wanted. You settled for something else because of your indecisiveness, because of your fear. You didn't get the job. You didn't go to the school. You didn't get anything that you really wanted, and now the person that had half as much as- the talent as you, that just took a risk on themselves and gave themself permission to succeed, and if they fail, so what? You're hating on 'em. You're talking shit about 'em. You're saying, "Oh, yeah, must be nice."Must be nice you get to go on the vacations. Why does he have to... Oh, he's a kiss ass. He's this, he's that. No, you dummy. It was you and your inability to execute. So, by me seeing that in myself and being a wuss, I had to eliminate that shit right away. Because I recognized in certain areas of my life where I did stand up and say, "I'm gonna do this," what was the outcome? I killed it. If I go up to the squat rack and I see 450 pounds or whatever it is, and I'm like, (panting) , I've already lost. I have to go into it knowing that I should win because I've trained for this. Now, if I haven't trained for that, there's danger. There's extreme danger with this, and I shouldn't (laughs) do it. But if I trained for this, I should know that, yep, it's heavy, it's gonna be heavy, but I'm gonna take you for a ride. You ready? And when I pound that chest, oh, I'm ready. And it's me reminding myself who the hell I am. And that way, I can then, and only then, impose my will onto someone else. You can't impose your will on someone else if you don't know who the hell you are. And that's what makes the Michael Phelps slapping the freaking water to the Usain Bolt. You know that it's all effective shit. Michael Jordan, the only guy to ever have his tongue out while he's driving to the basket and dunk on your face. To Fly, to the Bo Jackson's that... Man, I mean if that guy never got hurt, but did so much, breaking bats. This guy was like a demigod, and was never afraid of being who he was. So, that's why I always admire those people that believe in themselves. And you're, you're telling me that they didn't have moments where they're having that tactical minefield in their head, like saying, "You can't do this, Phil. Come on, man. You don't know anything. Oh, you wanna be an entrepreneur? You wanna run a business? You don't know that." No shit, dude. It, it's not like I didn't know anything when I picked up a basketball the first time or played the piano or played the freaking Nintendo game. I didn't know. But I had passion behind it. I was curious about it, and I put effort into it. And I was passionately present with others so that, you know, I could yield some good wins. And, uh, I could easily say I've had more wins than losses. And I've had, I'd say, more than 95% of those wins come from extreme competitive nature derived by positive belief. Like, you could not be around me at the Olympia and say, "Hey, Phil, you think you're gonna win this year?" Get the fuck outta here. Why are you even still standing here? You would not ask a mother that is getting ready to give birth, "Hey, you ready to..." What are we talking about? So, you know, a lot of people can only understand so much of this, right? But in their own lives, I think this is the most relatable thing. Being in relation to, like, you know, o- obviously I would tell myself, "Phil, you're so misunderstood because of what you achieved and this and that." Well, now I recognize it's about what's in here and what's in here that I can give. And this is part of this conversation is that you have to give yourself extreme permission to just learn and be curious and ask questions and say, "Man, I don't know, man. Chris, can you... You know, you've been podcasting, you've been doing all these episodes. I'm just getting started. Like, what do you think the three things that I should be doing right now? Do you see anything in me? 'Cause I believe that these are my qualities. And do you think those qualities can be applicable into this?" And just sitting back and shutting the hell up and letting people speak, right?

    5. CW

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  5. 22:47 – 28:22

    Do You Really Want High Standards or Pity?

    1. CW

      came up when you were talking about your coach that perhaps from a bygone era would have grabbed you by the scruff of the neck and-

    2. PH

      Oh, my God, yeah.

    3. CW

      ... told you to do that.

    4. PH

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      A, uh, quote from a friend who I was with yesterday says, uh, "Cry to someone who pities you rather than believes in you." And it makes me... Th- that, um, treating self-love or, or believing that self-love is holding yourself to a higher standard than anybody else is such a beautiful reframe of saying, "Okay, what do you want? Like, what do you want in this moment?" Right?

    6. PH

      Right.

    7. CW

      Things are hard. It, it... Diet is difficult. Uh, this business you're trying to get off the ground, the, the, the job that you're trying to go for, it's not happening. What do you want? Do you want sympathy? Or do you want me to have higher standards for you than you do?

    8. PH

      Thank you.

    9. CW

      Do you want me to hold you-

    10. PH

      Yes.

    11. CW

      ... to higher standards than you do because I believe in you? Why do you think I'm holding you to high standards? Do you want me to hold you to low standards?

    12. PH

      Yeah. And they wonder why they were getting yelled at by their teachers. Getting the calls home.

    13. CW

      I see something in you.

    14. PH

      I used to get calls home from the teachers, right? Once a quarter. (laughs) It was on... It was like clockwork. "Phil's being disruptive." Well, I was probably being disruptive because... I had to explain this to my mom. I was like, "I'm being disruptive probably because I'm getting my work done first 'cause I'm, like, wanting to get this done first so I can be left alone."

    15. CW

      Yep.

    16. PH

      But then, I, like, turn around, I'm like, "Hey, what's up, man? What's going on?" You know what I mean? And I get caught. But then I used to tell... I remember on more than one occasion, I would... After they... I'd... We'd get the call and my parents would sit me down and just... You know, they ground you. So, the parents sit me down and they ground me, right?... you said you wouldn't do this anymore. We gotta, you know, punishment. No Nintendo, no this. You know, you can't go out with your friends." Whatever it is. I go up to the teacher and I'm like, seeking retribution, man. I'm like, "Hey, man, why'd you call my parents, man?" You know what I mean? (laughs) Like, not that I could threaten an adult. But I'm like, "But, but Timmy over here is, you know, throwing pencils and paper," and this, and that, and the other. And I remember this happening on more than one occasion, and the teacher would say, (sighs) "Meet me after class. I gotta say something to you." And you know what it was? "We don't expect something from him or from her, but I see something in you that I'm ... And your mom told me to ride you." So, I'm going home, "Mom, man, like, what's going on?" And I realized, like, that is a form of love if saying like, hold my kid to the highest standard because obviously they see something that I don't see.

    17. CW

      Yeah.

    18. PH

      What do they see? They see talent.

    19. CW

      Someone who believes in you rather than Someone that believes- ... criticizes you.

    20. PH

      So, right. So therefore, "Oh, you got a, you got a 3.8. Why didn't you get a 4.0?" "But come on, Mom." And then he's like, "No, but why not? Why can't you? And why can't you do it for just more than one quarter? Why can't you do it for more than one semester? Why can't you do it forever?"

    21. CW

      'Cause we know that you can.

    22. PH

      Right. Well, you've already proven it. If you can sit there and play video games for three hours, you can do the ... You can read a book for three hours.

    23. CW

      So this is, this is something that I think's really important to drive home. The better that you get, the better that you realize that you can become. And in that way, the more that you work, the more painfully you become aware of your deficiencies.

    24. PH

      Right.

    25. CW

      And I think this is, anybody that feels like they have potential, the real pain in life is getting to the end of it and realizing that you left something on the table, I think.

    26. PH

      Yeah.

    27. CW

      That I had unfulfilled potential.

    28. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    29. CW

      I could have done more.

    30. PH

      Yep.

  6. 28:22 – 37:35

    Phil’s Relationship With Pain

    1. CW

    2. PH

      Well, my relationship with pain ... Oh, man. I mean, we don't have enough hours, but I can give you an example of how I deal with it. Well, you could easily super hyper-focus, like w- going to the gym, let's say. You know, uh, breakups make great bodybuilders, those type of things, right?

    3. CW

      (laughs)

    4. PH

      We already know that. But I'll give you one for instance. I've s- I've shared this story and you probably already know it. But, you know, uh, few years back, like eight, uh, like eight years ago or nine years ago, I was actually guest posing in Cleveland, Ohio for Dave Lieberman. Did a great event. You know, I'm posing, I'm having fun, having a great speech. Can't remember everything, but I remember getting like a standing ovation. It was very rare. Like, people were like, "Yeah!" Like, "This is awesome what he was saying and pouring into us." Then I get in the limo to go back to the hotel where I rinse all the tanning off, and then I go do a meet and greet with like 100 people inside of a restaurant. I found out that my father had passed away. And I had the phone on speaker, and the driver's like, "Uh, Mr. Heath?" And I said, "Just slow it down a little bit. Slow down the, the drive, if you don't mind." So, I get to the room, and I'm like, "Mm. No tears. Does that make me callous? I'm trying to process this." It's like, well, you already knew that your dad was sick, so this shouldn't come with ex- no surprise, you know? It's, it's upsetting. Opening up the, the, the laptop and going on Facebook, and then realizing that that's not the way to of handling things because that's how everyone else handles things, and you're not them. And you're not giving yourself a ti- time period of digesting what just happened. That doesn't mean that you're gonna burst out in tears. That doesn't mean you're gonna yell. But I gave myself permission. I felt like, oh, I need to give myself some time to kinda like just sit with this and ask myself, "What does this mean?" You know what I- you know what I got? Uh, it's, it's like John C. Maxwell talks about the whisper. When you're in silence, you get a whisper. It's usually from above, right? Or your consciousness, you know, like something that voice in your head. You get a whisper. Says, "Go to work."... got work to do. And that sounds like my father, right? So I'm like, "Okay." (laughs) So I go in the shower, I get everything ready and all I did was do a nice gesture. I called up my best friend, put him on FaceTime, and your friends kinda know you, so he, the minute I did it, he was like, "No." And I was like, "Yep. Shot of teq- tequila, please. Cheers to my Pops." That's that. By now, the, the promoters heard what was going on. They gave me every opportunity to just w- walk back to the hotel room, get a meal, set up, and, uh, call it a night and get on the next flight home. I said, "No, I'm good. I just needed this moment, just to make sure there's no pictures, you know." Just me and my boy, we're just talking, and I did that, and I did my job. Because guess what? I'm not the first person to go through this. And I look at it as a badge of honor of how I handle things in battle-tested moments. So I never was in the military, but I always think of that, like, people that get those stars, those badges and stuff, they had to go through something. This is my opportunity... to say, "You know what? I went through this, and now I can help somebody else go through theirs." Could you imagine going through these things? So you talk about pain, absolutely. I mean, yeah, I was upset, but, but there was no time for that yet. What I've learned is, like, you have to still give your, uh, body, mind and spirit an opportunity to let those feelings come, and you can't always push 'em underneath, and I did that throughout a lot of my career so I do understand pain. You know, death with my father, his wife, um, passed, like, two years later, now I got my half-brother, high-functioning autistic, perfectly fine as, as far as, like, his scholastic achievement is concerned, super hyper-focused and that, graduated high school at 15, Phi Theta Kappa at 16. But now do I have to change my why to make sure that he's taken care of financially, right? Huh. Dealing with a divorce at the same time of running a business that's crumbling, having the ridicule go online because now I'm the Tom Brady of bodybuilding, realizing also that I'm now chasing, you know, the Jay Cutlers, the- the Dorians, the now Arnolds of Olympia championships... and saying, "Why am I doing this?" And having the pain of just the physical torture that I had to put myself through, and I put myself through it on purpose, because I knew in the end, it'd all be worth it. So I say my pain tolerance, I think, uh, is, is very, very high. You know, I went through divorce, death, business, ridicule publicly. Um, those are all relatable things, but I did it all while still kicking a lot of freaking ass on the Olympia stage. And that made me more powerful on that Olympia stage. So when I walk out, I'm like, "You guys have not gone through this. I know your life," right? 'Cause on social media we all kinda share a lot-

    5. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    6. PH

      ... and some people overshare, so now I really know what's going on with you. I'm like, "Oh, you haven't gone through this, therefore you didn't have to do some self-work." You, you have a p- some of these guys had a perfect life, right? I'm like, "Man, you didn't have these struggles and shit, and you can't even diet? You can't even train? You have a whole entourage picking up your weights and stuff." I train by myself 99% of the time. Oh, I know who I am. Like how Dorian Yates would say, "They could never out-train me, they could never out... That's why they couldn't beat me." I felt the same way. I out-prepared them. I out-motivated myself. When I'm looking at myself in the mirror, I'm like, "Yeah, you're here. You're here to work, and you're gonna get this job done." And I call myself MFer, mmn, a million, probably a zillion times, because I also knew what legacy really means. What legacy really means is when you're s- in the dirt, or in some mausoleum or whatever, people have some incredible things to say about you because of what you not just won, but what you provided them. And they knew that even your...

    7. CW

      (clicks tongue)

    8. PH

      ... the biggest hater is actually (laughs) one of your greatest soundboards when you're gone, because of what you did. So when I decided to not compete, those biggest haters that were just drive... I mean, they weren't driving me insane. I actually enjoyed it. They were the ones that said, "Man, I wish he came back, because I don't see the level of competitiveness in this sport ever again," and, "Man, I wish I could have appreciated him." And I look at that and I say, "That's life." Sometimes we don't appreciate it w- until it's gone, but it's really cool to know that those people that just despised your greatness really embraced your greatness, in all essence, because it was a m- reminder. Phil Hughes coming to Olympia? There's a standard. I could... Let's say I came back next year, not that s- (laughs) create any... r- right?

    9. CW

      (laughs) Careful. The internet's listening.

    10. PH

      Right, it's gonna... Oh, yeah. Yeah. But let's just say I did, or did the Arnold Classic or something like that. People would get excited. And some people would say, "Oh, well, he can't do this and that..." But then some- there's gonna be a m- large majority that says, "But what if he did? What if he isn't hurt? What if he isn't this? What if he is who he is?" They say, "Well, it's over." It's not just like, "Oh, he has a chance." It's like, "No, it's freaking over." And that was because of the standards that I created for a long stretch of time. It was not luck. And that's why I loved speaking, uh, public speaking, talking to different corporations and talking to C-suite executives about stamina, which is a word that is never used, whether it be in business or in athletics. It's very rarely used. How often do you hear the word stamina? They don't. They talk about peak performance, but peak performance just goes shoo, and it may go down. Let's go peak performance and hold it. That'd be muscular endurance, but I like stamina, you know? Stamina in the bedroom, stamina in the gym-

    11. CW

      (laughs)

    12. PH

      ... stamina, you know, like, stamina reading a book, you know? But having peak performance with enough stamina, you are freaking unstoppable and you are now a machine. And I, and I just, I love people that are having high standards of themselves 'cause they're always having a endless pursuit of personal excellence, and it weeds out the, the bullshitters. It weeds out the fakers that we see online. We, we see so much of it right now, and I think it's our job to do exceptional work on ourselves so then the consumer of content will realize-He actually has proof in his performance, based on the journey that he can share, that he shared 'cause, I mean, your life too... I mean, you know, you're a great storyteller because you've done work and you've had experiences. Some of the younger people haven't gone through that yet, so we can't talk about things yet. And a young Anakin Skywalker cannot talk in retrospective, like, who he was as Darth Vader before he passed. He didn't know who he was until the end. My job is to check, check in with myself (laughs) , you know what I'm saying, in different chapters of my life. Let's check in. Let's journal a little bit. Let's actually use a pen and paper because we know the neurological connection. Let's do that. Let's look in each other's eyes when we speak. Let's not do this at the dinner table. But let's also give ourselves permission again to, to, um, acknowledge our failures and trim the fat, seriously, when possible.

    13. CW

      So you start off with

  7. 37:35 – 46:20

    The Experience of Filming Generation Iron

    1. CW

      this, The Gift nickname. It sticks with you. It's got multiple meanings.

    2. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      It's layered. And then there's a really interesting period, sort of 2012 to, I guess, kind of 2014, '15, where the Dream Killer-

    4. PH

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... comes in. What did you think about having that name?

    6. PH

      I loved it. I actually love that one more than The Gift sometimes, because that's like the... You know, they say Kobe Bryant, Black Mamba, Black Katt for Michael Air Jordan. Is it Usain or is it Usain Bolt? The Bolt, you know, like all these nicknames, you know. And Dream Killer actually came about because of the fans. After Generation Iron was published, I was getting ready for the 2013 Mr. Olympia, and I had a feeling that that was my opportunity to close the door on Kai Green, just, just close the door. Because when the movie would come out, and if I lose, then they're gonna watch the movie, even though it was based on 2012, know what game you're playing, Phil. The way people see things on TV, they may not have watched 2013. They may think that's a previous show. Now, you're not champion anymore. Now, that movie just makes you look like y- y- oh, you fell off. So I, I put that added pressure on myself and I stepped up to the challenge and I said, "You know what? You're gonna train harder. You're gonna train smarter. You're gonna, you're gonna do whatever it takes to, you know, beat the living shit out of him on stage." You know, you're gonna... A- a- and, and then I was like, "Well, how do you do that?" I was like, "All right. Well, sometimes you gotta train angry." Take 2011, take 2012, merge them, 2013. And I had one call-out that year, right? Well, like I said, after Generation Iron, a lot of people had opinions about me that I felt that was, uh, very interesting 'cause it was a docudrama and it wasn't a documentary, right?

    7. CW

      So take me through this experience of filming Generation Iron. So for the people that aren't familiar,-

    8. PH

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... there's, uh, from the past, originally Pumping Iron with Arnold, and then they actually did, was it Total Rebuild?

    10. PH

      Yeah, so they,-

    11. CW

      So this is-

    12. PH

      ... it was two words, right? It was two names, The Comeback and Total Rebuild, right?

    13. CW

      Yes, yeah.

    14. PH

      Yeah, they, yeah, it's like different, but the same.

    15. CW

      I think, uh, Pumping Iron is actually free available on, uh, YouTube Premium or whatever at the moment. But anyway, they do this, and then the, I guess, you would say the progeny of that production company decide to-

    16. PH

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      ... come back and show the new generation of bodybuilders.-

    18. PH

      Yes.

    19. CW

      ... and the key rivalry in this-

    20. PH

      Mm-hmm, so-

    21. CW

      ... is yourself and Kai Green.

    22. PH

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      So take me through before it happens, what are you told about it, what's the experience, and what happens after?

    24. PH

      It was pretty much exactly what you just said. It's like, "We already know Pumping Iron. We're pretty much doing this for the new era. Phil, you're the champion. Your role as the champion, you're defending for the first time. That's pretty much it. We're gonna follow you around." They literally parked an RV outside of my house for a week, and they were in my house at the gym, driving with me, doing everything. A lot of, a lot of hours of content obviously that still hasn't been published. You know, maybe they'll come out with a director's cut later on of me screwing around in the gym, talk- telling jokes, talking shit, you know, like different things. Uh, I loved it because I, uh, I also looked at it as an opportunity to maybe step outside of bodybuilding and go into Hollywood, kinda like what Arnold did prematurely, you know, because Arnold did that film toward the end, where I'm at the beginning. But I was like, "Hey, if they pull you away, mayb- you, you're, you'd still be young enough to come back, right?" So I go into the show knowing that I have to win. So I, I did that and then obviously when it came out, it was, it was, it was good. I mean, I, I, I remember seeing the two movie premieres in LA and New York, and I was like, "Man, this is dope. This is exciting. And I'm looking good right now so I know I'm gonna win." And I remember my coach, Hanley Rambod, pulls me aside. He goes, "This isn't good." I go, "What, what are you talking about?" He goes, "No, it's a good film, but I think people are gonna look at you as the villain, the way they, they made it seem like you had everything and I know your upbringing. You worked for everything, and they made it seem like you just, you know, you're driving the Bentley, you got the house, you got two houses, you got the..." You know what I mean?

    25. CW

      Meanwhile, Kai is living in this-

    26. PH

      And I was like, "I know."

    27. CW

      ... like one bedroom-

    28. PH

      Which is complete bullshit. Like, okay, you have this house, but like, I can't even speak on another man's income, but like, you just do... You know, I'm a very logical person. I'm like, the fans, all they have to do is say, "Well, this guy won the Arnold Classic like a couple of times, man. Like, this guy's not broke. He's got a Wheeler contract. He's got a"-

    29. CW

      MuscleMeds.

    30. PH

      ... MuscleMeds contract.

  8. 46:20 – 1:02:42

    Phil’s Rivalry with Kai Greene

    1. CW

      about how you reflect on your relationship with Kai Greene.

    2. PH

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      Because people call it the greatest rivalry in bodybuilding, and it's then the stakes are raised with Generation Iron.

    4. PH

      Yeah. (laughs)

    5. CW

      It's the inception of social media.

    6. PH

      Right.

    7. CW

      Talk to me about that relationship with Kai Greene.

    8. PH

      I think it's, I think it is the greatest rivalry. I think it's bigger than Jay and Ronnie's just because they were friends. We weren't. And I think we wanted to be friends, Kai and I, but I feel like because of we want, us both wanting something so freaking bad, and during the social media era, one camp, the other camp, they're talking so much, and we can see the chatter, that it kinda made it look like, "So you don't like me, Chris? Okay, uh." It's like high school, you know what I mean? Like, "You talking shit?" And then all you do is look at me weird and I'm like, "All right, what's up?" So I know that Kai had to play psychological warfare, because this is bodybuilding. It's not MMA, it's not boxing, you know? Like, it's not even basketball or football, right? It's just a person lifting weights and dieting and doing heavy amounts of cardio imposing, that it's hard to impose your will on someone physically.

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. PH

      So you gotta figure out how he can beat me. So for him to start a fight, you know, like in 2014, flipping the hair and all this other stuff, I don't blame him. People used to get mad at me for like, accepting it. Like, in my, like, friend circle, they were like, "Man, like, you're just cool with this guy."

    11. CW

      Push back.

    12. PH

      But I said, "I expected it." They're like, "How'd you, why'd you expect this?" I said, "Listen, it all started at the damn press conference." But I knew he was gonna do something. I didn't know what I was gonna respond, by saying the three facts and all this other stuff.

    13. CW

      'Cause he'd signed, hadn't he'd signed his name-

    14. PH

      Oh, yeah. He did.

    15. CW

      ... as Mr. Olympia-

    16. PH

      Yeah, he started doing-

    17. CW

      ... on your, like over your face or something?

    18. PH

      So, yeah, yeah, yeah. So we have a, we have an Olympia poster that comes out every year. So when we get our Olympia credentials, you know, our per diem, all that good stuff, we have to sign a bunch of merchandise. One of it is like a big ass poster that we give out all the VIP holders. So, you know, of course, you know, I'm like, it's front and center, so people are gonna sign like maybe the leg or this and that. This fool like took on the face. I'm like, "Oh, it's like that." And he wrote Mr. Olympia. I'm like, "Okay, how many times did he do it?" For like a whole row of them. I'm like, "Oh, he's trying to send a message." So, uh, you know, basketball mentality comes out right now. It's like, "Oh, this is, oh, the, the..." I love it, the disrespect. I love it. Like, now I get to-... make this more intentional and he has no idea what I look like. He's then going to try to probably say something at this press conference. Why? Because that's what I would do. Know thyself. Know your opponent know how to respond versus react. See, when you don't play through these things and when you only get fixated on how much food and water do I drink and yes, I have to do this mundane stuff, you need to work on the mind of figuring out all the different permutations that can exist, all the different scenarios that can happen. That way you know how to handle yourself and anything that comes towards you. So, I g- I gave him what he needed at the press conference and he had nothing to say after that and that's when I knew the only thing left was for him to try to do something physical and I handled it well and unfortunately, that was like the end of that prejudging because-

    19. CW

      Yeah, they split you apart, right?

    20. PH

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      They put Denis Wolf in between you and no one's-

    22. PH

      Yeah, so-

    23. CW

      No one's walking through him.

    24. PH

      I mean, it w- in a way it was, it was, it was effed up because I'm like, "We're not performing now."

    25. CW

      Yeah.

    26. PH

      Um, and it was a big adrenaline dump as well for he and I both. I know he probably had it 'cause I felt it.

    27. CW

      I was gonna say, so talk, talk to me. You're, you're on stage, you've worked toward this thing for ages. Generation Nine is out now.

    28. PH

      Yeah, it's already out for the second year.

    29. CW

      Yeah. So, you've got the rivalry is not only private, it's public.

    30. PH

      Yep.

  9. 1:02:42 – 1:09:24

    What Does Phil Think of Chris Bumstead?

    1. CW

      Give me your thoughts on Chris Bumstead.

    2. PH

      Most popular. Um, no rival. Really good bodybuilder. I saw him when he was coming up at, like, what? 19, 20 years old? Guys over at Team MuscleTech used to tell me about him 'cause, you know, MuscleTech is a Canadian company, pretty much. And they were saying, "Oh, this guy's coming up." And I said, "Yeah." And when I- a- and they're like, "What? You don't think?" And I go, "I'm gonna treat him just like they treated me." Meaning, I see big things, and he's done those things. And like I shared with him at- after his, uh, Olympia win, I said, "Now it's just you. You solidified yourself in this category where it's just you. You're running by yourself now. You have no equal." Um, and what do they do? They raised the weight limit up for everybody else. But now, he has to realize that what I was saying was true because they only change the game when you're dominant. Happened to Coleman with the challenge round, happened to me when they decided to, uh, make the fans a judge at the Olympia table. They actually put that in Flex magazine by Jim Manion himself. So then I realized like, they do this to make it more entertaining.

    3. CW

      Needs to remain competitive.

    4. PH

      And every-

    5. CW

      And if someone is making it too uncompetitive-

    6. PH

      Right.

    7. CW

      ... the rules gotta change.

    8. PH

      So- so yeah, they... Y- you're telling me that there wasn't an opportunity to tell Chris maybe this in January? Did you tell all the athletes at the same time? Maybe, maybe not, right? Because there's certain athletes that are going against him right now that are, you know, much bigger in their off season. So it makes you question, did they already know?

    9. CW

      Yeah.

    10. PH

      Or did someone in their camp kinda hear something? 'Cause everybody in this, uh, industry can't hold water, so... What I think are Chris Bumstead is that he has a- he has a great reach, great opportunity, great following, um, great responsibility, and an- an incredible amount of responsibility right now.

    11. CW

      Why?

    12. PH

      Oh man, because look at his demographic. It's not- it's like, what? 30 and under. It's not 30 and over, it's 30 and under, probably 25 and under. So your legacy (laughs) is gonna be predicated how you become a leader for these younger people. See, I can still inspire these people, but they're gonna maybe reach towards someone that is around the same age. So that's why there's a responsibility, because he's not perfect. He's still learning. He's still young.

    13. CW

      He's very public-

    14. PH

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... about his failings, his insufficiencies, his fears. Dude, I- I sat down for him- with him for two and a half hours a few months ago in Florida. I genuinely think he might be the most likable person I've ever met in my life.

    16. PH

      Right.

    17. CW

      He is so beyond the real deal-

    18. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    19. CW

      ... it's- it's insane. And if there- if there was somebody to be this particular micro generation's fitness leader-

    20. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    21. CW

      ... people talk about Rogan the same way, especially people that are friends with him a l- have been friends with him for a long time and they realize y- they say stuff like, "You do realize how rare it is to have a benevolent king." The guy that's at the top of this particular industry-

    22. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      ... is one who is more concerned with raising other people up than raising himself up-

    24. PH

      Right.

    25. CW

      ... and is happy to just spread spoils-

    26. PH

      Right.

    27. CW

      ... all the time.

    28. PH

      The timing with Chris is impeccable.

    29. CW

      I think so too.

    30. PH

      I think that's what helps too, because I would say, a Jay Cutler with social media back when he started would be just as popular, if not maybe more.

  10. 1:09:24 – 1:20:58

    Explaining the Use of Drugs & Longevity in Bodybuilding

    1. CW

    2. PH

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      G- e-... One of the things that came up in conversation with Chris, your sport is psychologically, hormonally, physically, pharmacologically very taxing. And I asked him about any concerns that he had around longevity.

    4. PH

      Mm-hmm.

    5. CW

      Um, were there any points in your career where you were forced to make a, a choice between, "Well, if I keep pushing like this, I'm concerned about what this is going to do for my health over the long term?" Uh, and talk me through that, you know, that mindset when-

    6. PH

      I love this.

    7. CW

      ... you are faced with those choices.

    8. PH

      I love this conversation because, um, I took less than everybody. And I can, I can point it out. I've had blood work from the very beginning.

    9. CW

      How s- how deep can you go into that?

    10. PH

      Okay. So, I went into Mr. USA taking 500 milligrams of testosterone with a shot of Deca a week. (laughs) I didn't have any money, but I whipped everybody's ass. First crack at it, and quoted as one of the greatest Mr., uh, Mr. USAs of all time. Didn't take growth hormone until my second Arnold Classic.

    11. CW

      How deep are we in there?

    12. PH

      I turned pro in '05. We're talking about 2008. I'd already won two pro shows, and now I decided to take growth hormone for the first time.

    13. CW

      And you're still running 500 milligrams of test-

    14. PH

      No, I was probably doing, like, 750.

    15. CW

      Yep.

    16. PH

      Very minimal stuff. Because here's my thought process with this. Uh, you watch Fast and the Furious?

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. PH

      You know the s- good old saying, "Too soon, Junior?" That plays in bodybuilding. The guy that hits the nitrous too fast in the race loses every time.

    19. CW

      Why?

    20. PH

      Because that car was a, what? Little Honda Civic with a little turbo kit and some bullshit. Handmade, handcrafted Ferraris will always beat that shit. And if you put a little bit of a mod on that thing, you can't catch 'em.

    21. CW

      So, you're saying that building-

    22. PH

      I rather would build... Okay, better analogy. You go Super Saiyan, and I can beat you in my base form.

    23. CW

      (laughs) The internet is happy at the, uh-

    24. PH

      You see what I'm saying?

    25. CW

      ... Dragon Ball Z reference, yeah.

    26. PH

      So, so let me, let me go ahead and beat you in the base form. Let me work on the base form.

    27. CW

      Is the... So, you're, i- it seems like you're s-

    28. PH

      Then I can't rely on this stuff, because here, with pharmacology and stuff, are you really getting it from a valuable source? Are you getting it from Bayer? Are you getting it from Schering? Are you getting it from these companies? You don't know. You don't work there. You really wanna tax your body? You really wanna take something that you really don't know? That could really hurt you, and now you're becoming a drug addict. Buying drugs from someone at a gym. You're buying it from drug dealers. I know drug dealers. I grew up around drug dealers. I know the mentality. I stayed away from that shit, because I was like, "You know what?" Like, "Let me just go ahead and slowly roll myself into this, because if I wanna have longevity after the, after my career, it would be nice to show that my blood work can prove it."

    29. CW

      Would you ever release that?

    30. PH

      My blood work?

Episode duration: 2:08:07

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