How To Make Better Decisions (with way less uncertainty) - Joe Hudson

1. 0:00 – 2:27

   How Your Decisions Shape Your Life

   1. CWChris Williamson0:00

      I wanna talk about decision-making.

   2. JHJoe Hudson0:01

      Great.

   3. CWChris Williamson0:02

      There's a line from Alex Hormozi that says, "The life that you want is on the other side of a few hard decisions, and the reason that you're unhappy is because you're not making them." In your experience, how important is the skill of decision-making in guiding someone's life?

   4. JHJoe Hudson0:17

      It's everything. Like, if you look at... [inhales] If I'd say, like, the one of the things I talk about when I'm working with leaders who are, like, growing billion-dollar companies is that your business is only two things. It's the relationships that are held in the business and the decisions that you make. Everything else can-- goes to those two things. There's some capital, you know, there's potentially some IP, but those came from decisions that people made. So it is, for a business, it's the critical thing. And if you look at, um, I think it was, um, founder of Amazon, Jeff Bezos, who said, uh, "For my next company, I want it to be the best decision-making company in the world."

   5. CWChris Williamson1:01

      Mm.

   6. JHJoe Hudson1:01

      So a-after somebody grew the biggest company in the world, he then said, "My next company is gonna be just really great at making decisions." That's how important it is for a company. But if you look at your life, well, what doesn't happen from a decision, right? [chuckles] Like, if you're smoking cigarettes, if you are building a company, if you are getting married, who you're getting married to, how you stay married, how you fight, all these things are decisions that we make. For, for, I think for the framework purposes, I think it's really important to separate what... And this is, this is the way I think about it, so it's, uh, is there's choices and there's decisions. So choices are just the things that you don't think about. Like right now, you're sitting like this. You never thought about it.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:47

      Mm.

   8. JHJoe Hudson1:48

      You just... Right? And, or the first question, maybe you thought, "This is a great first question." Maybe you're like, "Is that the right first question, or is that the other-"

   9. CWChris Williamson1:55

      Mm.

   10. JHJoe Hudson1:55

       "Is that the right first question?"

   11. CWChris Williamson1:57

       Mm.

   12. JHJoe Hudson1:58

       If you are just making choices, it means that you're not sitting there really spending time on it, and so th- I call that a choice. And decisions is where you're really making, spending time on it. So knowing how to make great choices and great decisions is all of life.

   13. CWChris Williamson2:12

       Mm.

   14. JHJoe Hudson2:12

       Like e-everything that you're gonna end-- When you're at your grave, it's gonna be a series of decisions that you made. So I'd say super hyper-critical. And if you can learn how to make great decisions, then you're gonna make decisions that are gonna make a great life.

2. 2:27 – 3:34

   Can You Train Yourself to Be More Decisive?

   1. CWChris Williamson2:27

      Can you train decisiveness, or is it largely a personality trait?

   2. JHJoe Hudson2:32

      You can absolutely train decisiveness. I don't think it's a training, but, uh, i-it's a, a recognition. There's some recognitions that can happen that allow for decisiveness.

   3. CWChris Williamson2:41

      Mm.

   4. JHJoe Hudson2:42

      So once you really understand what's happening behind decision-making, then you can-- then decisiveness starts to flow from that. Like, why, why is it hard for people to make decisions? Why are some decisions hard to make?

   5. CWChris Williamson2:55

      Mm.

   6. JHJoe Hudson2:55

      Why are some choices like, "I'm gonna go to the grocery store. I, I took a left here. I'm calling my friend." Why we don't even think about those, and why some are really difficult to make. And when you get that, when you understand that, then decisiveness becomes, like... There'd be less and less decisions, more and more choices, and the choi- and the, and the result is better and better.

   7. CWChris Williamson3:15

      It feels to me like system one, system two thinking a bit from Daniel Kahneman, "Thinking Fast and Slow." So the system two is very deliberate, and you sort of have to pay a lot of cognitive attention to it. And then over time, you train system two into system one, and the sort of carefully thought decision becomes the, the default.

3. 3:34 – 4:30

   Why Some People Struggle to Make Decisions

   1. JHJoe Hudson3:34

      Right.

   2. CWChris Williamson3:34

      What types of people-

   3. JHJoe Hudson3:38

      Yeah

   4. CWChris Williamson3:38

      ... tend to struggle with decisions the most? What's the avatar of the sorts of people who tend to be the most indecisive, that have the, the toughest time when it comes to decisions?

   5. JHJoe Hudson3:49

      Well, I'll give you, like, what humans, what most people in society would call them, and then I'll tell you, like, the thing [chuckles] that's underneath, right? So it's gonna be people who are perfectionists, people who have been criticized a lot as children, people who, um, who were told that their value was in getting it right, and it's really important for them to get it right, and people who are s- like, have a tendency to be scared of consequences.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:13

      Mm.

   7. JHJoe Hudson4:13

      Those are the people that are gonna have a hard time making decisions. That they're gonna be long, prolonged SWOT analysis, you know, thinking, thinking, thinking, still thinking about it six months later, "Should I marry them? Should I not marry them?" That's, that's gonna be what's behind it-

   8. CWChris Williamson4:28

      Mm-hmm

   9. JHJoe Hudson4:29

      ... for them.

4. 4:30 – 11:03

   Emotion vs Information: What Drives Our Decisions?

   1. CWChris Williamson4:30

      How much is decision-making an emotional problem, and how much is it an informational problem?

   2. JHJoe Hudson4:37

      100% an emotional problem.

   3. CWChris Williamson4:38

      [laughs]

   4. JHJoe Hudson4:39

      So, so that's not, that's not me. That is, that is, uh, neurology. So if you read a book, uh, called "Descartes' Error," 20... 2012, um, he wrote that the emotional center of the brain is what makes decisions. So there are people who've had the emotional center of their brain damaged, and they cease to be able to make decisions. Their whole-- Their IQ stays the same, but their whole life falls apart because, "Well, what color pen should I use?" And 15 minutes later, they're still trying to figure out what color pen or, "Where am I gonna have lunch?"

   5. CWChris Williamson5:18

      Mm.

   6. JHJoe Hudson5:19

      Right? So there is, just to be-- 'cause there's some neuroscientist in, in the audience who's gonna be, who's gonna quibble with me, so I'm gonna... There is a place where the emotional center of the brain doesn't make the decision, like if a snake comes at you and you jump away, then it bypasses that. But if you're trying to decide who to hire, if you're trying to decide what investment to make, no matter what your spreadsheet says, you're making a decision to feel a certain way. So if you think about your life and you say, "How many decisions did I make to feel loved, to feel liked, to feel valuable? How many decisions did I make to not feel like a failure, to not feel like a loser, to not feel dismissed, to not feel rejected?" Right there is guaranteed 90% of your life. So that is actually how we make decisions. Neurologically speaking, that's how. So, so the idea that you're gonna make a logical decision is absolute crap. It, like, it, it's a great idea and it's a g- and it's a great way to, like, justify emotional repression, but it's not true-

   7. CWChris Williamson6:17

      Mm

   8. JHJoe Hudson6:17

      ... neurologically. So that's why I say it's 100% an emotional decision. Where logic comes in is logic says, "I'm going to logically try to figure out how I'm gonna feel if I make this decision, or how I'm gonna feel if I make this other decision."

   9. CWChris Williamson6:33

      Mm.

   10. JHJoe Hudson6:33

       So you-- a SWOT analysis of, like, where you should take your business, where you should invest a million dollars, and if I said to you, and let's say your, your number-one modus operandi was, like, was happiness. And I said, "Hey, I guarantee," and you believe me, "you'd be happier if you did this," and you had that knowledge, there's, the SWOT analysis goes away. Doesn't matter. Maybe your thing is like a meaning, like, "This will give you the most meaning." "Okay, I'm gonna do that thing." But whatever that thing is, you're gonna do it, and all the logic is doing is trying to figure out how you're gonna get to the emotional state.

   11. CWChris Williamson7:10

       Mm.

   12. JHJoe Hudson7:11

       And so that's, that's just the neurological reality of it. And it, and it gives us the biggest clue on how to make great decisions. If you are scared to feel a certain thing, then a certain solution set in your decision-making is not available to you.

   13. CWChris Williamson7:27

       Why?

   14. JHJoe Hudson7:28

       If I'm scared to be a loser, I'm not gonna be able to take the same kind of risk. So you and I know the guy at the bar who doesn't mind getting rejected, doesn't mind that feeling of rejection. They'll go and hit on 10 women-

   15. CWChris Williamson7:42

       Mm

   16. JHJoe Hudson7:42

       ... and they will have options that the person who's scared of rejection, "I don't wanna feel that," and then I make a choice, 'cause I don't wanna get rejected, to not hit on those women. I have no choice.

   17. CWChris Williamson7:52

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JHJoe Hudson7:54

       It's, i- and it's that in everything. "I'm scared that my boss will yell at me, and I will have to feel like a, a dweeb. I don't wanna feel like a dweeb, so I'm not gonna say the thing to my boss," and therefore, that option is off the table. So that, that's, that's really what's going on behind decision-making. So if you can get to, "Oh, I love..." and this is gonna sound weird to everybody, but like, "I, I don't mind feeling rejected." Like that guy, like, I'm good with that. Even, like, I look forward to feeling rejected. I know that I'm winning if I have tried enough times, right? Just like a hurdler who's like, "I know if I practice enough, if I do enough reps, doesn't matter how many times I fail, I'm winning." Or if I say, "Oh, I f- I'm okay feeling like a dweeb. I'm okay embarrassing myself. I'm okay not looking good for a moment," then I can make really clear decisions, because then I'm making decisions based on my principles, based on what's most important to me, not based on a fear of, of a consequence.

   19. CWChris Williamson8:59

       Yeah. The, your value s- or your option set gets constrained a lot if you're not prepared to face a, a ton of emotions.

   20. JHJoe Hudson9:09

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson9:09

       James, business partner in Neutonic, used to work door to door selling, like, gas for N Power, which is, like, a, a utility company in the UK, and he needed, I think, two more sales before the end of the week in order to hit his target and not lose his job.

   22. JHJoe Hudson9:24

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson9:24

       And he was getting all stressed about it, and he spoke to his, the team leader, and the team leader said, "What's your sales rate? Like, how many doors do you need to knock on to get a sale?"

   24. JHJoe Hudson9:35

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson9:35

       He said, "At the moment, it's one in 50."

   26. JHJoe Hudson9:38

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson9:38

       He says, "Okay, so if you do 100 doors, you've hit your target."

   28. JHJoe Hudson9:42

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson9:42

       "You just need to be rejected 98 times."

   30. JHJoe Hudson9:44

       Yeah.
5. 11:03 – 16:52

   The Secret to Making Great Decisions

   1. CWChris Williamson11:03

      frame.

   2. JHJoe Hudson11:03

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson11:04

      How do you come to think about decision-making then? What are the component skills?

   4. JHJoe Hudson11:08

      Yeah. So, so the other thing to understand is, like, in that, before I can go into that, the, the, the, the decision, like, back to decisions and choices. So choices are often done because we have subconscious emotions that we don't wanna feel and never gets into consciousness, right? Like, so I'm gonna smoke the cigarette so I don't have to feel the thing, or I'm gonna scroll so I don't have to feel the thing. Or I'm going to tell my wife I love her because that lets me feel the thing, right? So that's one set of, like, how do you, how do you make good choices? How do you make great decisions? The thing to understand, I noticed the thing that, like, unlocked this for me around, uh, making decisions was that every time I was making a decision, I was in fear. So if you are in fear, your brain does certain things. You, one of the things your brain does is it Um, goes black and white thinking. Like, you become very binary. Should I take the job? Should I not take the job? Should I break up with the girl? Should I not break up with the girl? It doesn't say, "Oh, I could talk to the girl and say, 'This is what I need if we're gonna stay together.'" It doesn't say, "I could buy the car," or, "I could lease the car," or, "I could buy the car that's a different color," or whatever. So it doesn't see all the possibilities. It, it, it narrows things down into black and white thinking. The other thing that it, fear does in the brain is that it creates a false end. Like, okay, so you make a bad decision. So what? Like, you get to make another one tomorrow.

   5. CWChris Williamson12:49

      Mm.

   6. JHJoe Hudson12:49

      And you get to make another one after that. Amazon is another, an- another great example of Amazon. Make decisions fast if you can, if you can pull them back. If you h- if you can't, then okay, take a minute.

   7. CWChris Williamson13:00

      Mm.

   8. JHJoe Hudson13:00

      Make your decision.

   9. CWChris Williamson13:01

      Mm-hmm. Reversible decision.

   10. JHJoe Hudson13:02

       Yeah, exactly. So, so that's another one, uh, that, that fear does to the brain. And, and so, so that false end is like you don't see through the end, like what's happening afterwards. And so that's why most people think of decisions as like, "What do I do about this decision?" They don't think about decisions as a portfolio the way somebody who's running a hedge fund or in your stock account, if you have one, you're saying, "I don't need to get everything right. I just need to be principled about what I buy because a majority of them will work out."

   11. CWChris Williamson13:38

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   12. JHJoe Hudson13:39

       And so people are thinking, "This decision right now is really important instead of the portfolio of decisions that I'm gonna make this year."

   13. CWChris Williamson13:47

       Final decision I will ever make.

   14. JHJoe Hudson13:49

       Right. Exactly. So, so and so that's wh- how we know that we're in fear. Now, there's the, the rare occasion where someone's like, "Oh, I'm just gonna really think through this," and I'm, "Okay, I've thought about it. I've collected data. This is what I'm gonna do," right? That's pretty rare. So most of the people who are like, "Oh my God, I gotta make a decision. What am I gonna do?" It means there's just a tremendous amount of fear that's going on under the surface. And so one of the things to learn is that the fear is of a consequence, and if you go and you feel that consequence, you're gonna make a better decision. So I'll give you an example of this. My wife and I have been married now 27 years. We've been married a long time. But I've mar- I've been married to three or four different women, all with her name, right? She's been very, she was very different at 27 than she was at 37 than she was at 47. And, and so there's been these moments in our life where the, the, the marriage is rough. Like, what, what are we doing? And I'm scared to lose her. So I'm, I'm trying to make decisions to keep her, but I'm abandoning myself by doing that. I'm abandoning my principles. So both of us have come up with this, this method where we basically just mourn the marriage. Okay? Because what I'm scared of is that I'm gonna lose her. So I'm, I'm just gonna assume I've lost her. I'm gonna feel all that stuff. And then in feeling all that stuff, I'm not scared of it anymore. And then my response is, "Okay, this is who I am, and I'm gonna show up like that." And she shows up as who she is, and then we work out, like, how are we gonna be together? Do we wanna be together? What's gonna actually go on? But that fear isn't there. And this is, like, an age-old process. So whether you are a stoic or a samurai or Tibetan Book of Living or Dying, the way to overcome the fear of death is to actually visualize and feel the experience of death over and over in slow motion again and again, and then that fear is gone.

   15. CWChris Williamson15:56

       That includes, like, watching your own body decay-

   16. JHJoe Hudson15:59

       Oh, yeah

   17. CWChris Williamson15:59

       ... away and stuff. It's like even after you're dead, you're thinking about it.

   18. JHJoe Hudson16:02

       Because, because you're going past the false end.

   19. CWChris Williamson16:05

       Oh, right.

   20. JHJoe Hudson16:07

       That's why it's critical.

   21. CWChris Williamson16:08

       Interesting.

   22. JHJoe Hudson16:09

       Right. It's the same thing. If you're gonna, if you're gonna, like, mourn your marriage, you go, don't go to the moment of divorce. You go to, like, "And then I'm lonely after, and I can't find a woman." And then, you know, you do the whole thing.

   23. CWChris Williamson16:21

       And then, and then, and then.

   24. JHJoe Hudson16:22

       And then, and then, and then, and then I have a marriage again, or then I'm, you know, whatever it is. So, so overcoming your fear that way is a really critical thing because if you're having a hard time making a decision, it's not because you don't know what to do, typically. It's because you're scared of a consequence, and the consequence you're scared of is an emotional consequence.

   25. CWChris Williamson16:44

       That is the episode. Like, that's the-- That, that's really lovely. That's a great, a great summary.

6. 16:52 – 25:43

   How Fear Holds Us Back

   1. CWChris Williamson16:53

      Why is it fear? Why is that the emotion? I understand that there's this sort of absolutist thinking.

   2. JHJoe Hudson16:59

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson16:59

      Uh, I understand that creates a, a type of constraint which will cause panic.

   4. JHJoe Hudson17:05

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:05

      I also understand that if there's a kind of finality to things because you don't think that the life is gonna continue beyond this decision, and if you choose, especially if you choose the wrong one or not.

   6. JHJoe Hudson17:14

      Yeah. Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson17:14

      Um, but why fear? Like, why, why is that the case? Why is that the emotion default?

   8. JHJoe Hudson17:19

      Yeah, this is a great question because the fear is because the identity is gonna get messed with, right? So, like, who do I think I am? I think that I am a very successful person. It's important for me to be a successful person, so taking this job is really important. The things that are really important to us are the things that define us and our identity. And so that's gonna be a, that's gonna be where we're really important. And in some way, every time we're making a decision and we are in that fear-based decision-making process, it teaches us exactly where we're not principled in being ourselves.

   9. CWChris Williamson17:55

      Hmm.

   10. JHJoe Hudson17:56

       And so that's actually the antidote. So for instance, I have a set of principles that I make 80% of my decisions by. And I make them that way the same way that, like, uh- Berkshire Hathaway says, "This is what we invest in." That it's not guesswork. It's like, "These things have to be true for us to invest."

   11. CWChris Williamson18:15

       Mm-hmm.

   12. JHJoe Hudson18:16

       And I think right now they're sitting on, like, $230 billion because nothing is true enough to invest in. They're like, "It doesn't hit what we invest in, so we're just holding cash." Right? And, uh, that was the case maybe, like, three months ago. I don't know where they are today. And, um, and so it's the same thing. If... I'll make a decision based on a set of principles of who I wanna be in the world. And if I'm thinking about those principles, the way I think about the principles are, if I have five, seven principles, do they, do they get me where I wanna go 80% of the time? Do they almost guarantee success over time? Not a single success, but over time.

   13. CWChris Williamson19:02

       Mm.

   14. JHJoe Hudson19:03

       And do they solve 80% of my problems? Like-

   15. CWChris Williamson19:07

       Can you give me an example of a principle? It doesn't necessarily need to be one of yours.

   16. JHJoe Hudson19:11

       Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely. Um, I'll give you a decision-making principle we have at our business, which is, whenever we're building something new, we go to the thing we know the least amount about, and we build it first.

   17. CWChris Williamson19:25

       Give me an example.

   18. JHJoe Hudson19:26

       So if I'm gonna build a car, and I know how to build a car, but I don't know how to build a catalytic converter, most people will build the car, then build the catalytic converter, and then go, "Oh, shit, the catalytic converter doesn't work inside this car. I'm gonna have to rebuild part of the car." I'll say, "Let's build the catalytic converter first, and now build the car around it," because it's gonna be a more efficient process.

   19. CWChris Williamson19:49

       Why?

   20. JHJoe Hudson19:50

       Why is it a more efficient process?

   21. CWChris Williamson19:52

       Why, why do the hard thing first? What's the-

   22. JHJoe Hudson19:54

       Because then I don't have to redo the car.

   23. CWChris Williamson19:56

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JHJoe Hudson19:56

       'Cause I don't have to, like-

   25. CWChris Williamson19:57

       How does that make... How does that help with the decision? Like, I suppose that's a principle, but w-

   26. JHJoe Hudson20:01

       Right

   27. CWChris Williamson20:01

       ... in what way does that make the decision more likely to be successful?

   28. JHJoe Hudson20:04

       Right. So if we're... Yeah. So the, so, uh, the decision that we're... If we're in the decision of we're gonna build out a podcast for the first time-

   29. CWChris Williamson20:13

       Mm-hmm

   30. JHJoe Hudson20:13

       ... we're gonna be more successful because we went to the thing we don't know, and we've solved that first, rather than do all the things we know-
7. 25:43 – 29:27

   Why You Should Trust Your Brain’s GPS

   1. CWChris Williamson25:43

      Uh, have you heard of GPS Brain?

   2. JHJoe Hudson25:45

      No.

   3. CWChris Williamson25:45

      Or the G- the GPS principle. It's g- it's something not too dissimilar, which is if you are trying to get to a destination following Google Maps, when you miss the turn, Google Maps doesn't judge itself or you for you missing the turn. It just updates the route.

   4. JHJoe Hudson26:00

      Correct.

   5. CWChris Williamson26:01

      GPS Brain.

   6. JHJoe Hudson26:02

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson26:02

      Which is cool.

   8. JHJoe Hudson26:03

      Yeah, so a cool s- so there's this guy who was a... I love this story. This guy, he was a surgeon and he was a dog trainer. And so in dog training, you have this little click that tells the dog you did it right, and you go click, click, click, and that just, it's like a GPS Brain.

   9. CWChris Williamson26:20

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JHJoe Hudson26:21

       Click, click, click, click. So he's working with this, um, dog, his dog. He's pretty successful, but he loses his shit one day and just fucking yells at the dog. Doesn't do the clicker, just yells at the dog. And the dog, like, goes back, like regresses horribly. And so he's like, "Oh, crap." Like, that's what happens when there's any kind of emotional content in, in... his assumption is either good or bad. It's just like you did it right or you didn't do it right, GPS Brain.

   11. CWChris Williamson26:51

       Mm.

   12. JHJoe Hudson26:52

       So he goes to his surgeon students and he's teaching them, like, how to tie tendons and stuff, and there's like a six press, six thing problem. And he starts bringing a clicker. [laughs]

   13. CWChris Williamson27:03

       [laughs]

   14. JHJoe Hudson27:04

       Instead of saying, "Good job, you got it right. Don't do that. What are you doing here?" And he just clicks when they get it right. And he improved the rate of their learning dramatically-

   15. CWChris Williamson27:14

       No way

   16. JHJoe Hudson27:14

       ... by having GPS Brain. So that's another, like, okay, if, if everything is an iteration is a principle that gives me GPS Brain, which is what it does, th- then it helps me be more successful. So now when I'm confronting a problem, what do I do about this? One of the principles I look at is everything's an iteration.

   17. CWChris Williamson27:33

       Mm.

   18. JHJoe Hudson27:34

       What, if everything's an iteration, what would that tell me to do?

   19. CWChris Williamson27:37

       And this is in service of trying to improve the quality and accuracy of decisions, but also rid that fear. Get rid of that fear. Not just feeling it, not just going to the, like, reductio ad absurdum of the kind of mental projection.

   20. JHJoe Hudson27:51

       It's mostly this is who I want to be in the world.

   21. CWChris Williamson27:54

       Mm.

   22. JHJoe Hudson27:55

       Do I want to be neurotically freaking out about each one of my decisions? Nah, I don't really want to be that. Does this work as to make me successful? Yes, it does. Is this, like, more comfortable and awesome? Yes, it is. Cool. That's a principle.

   23. CWChris Williamson28:08

       Mm.

   24. JHJoe Hudson28:09

       Like, I have another principle that is connection. It's, you know, we have the connection course, but it's a principle. It means that if we bill somebody, we, we, how do we bill them with connection? If I'm sitting here talking to you, how do we actually build connection? And over the years, we've actually built connection. If I run a course, how do I make sure everybody feels like we're deeply connected with them and we really care about them? Because we do, and how do we help them find connection? And I have this video with Ali Abdaal where I'm coaching him.

   25. CWChris Williamson28:40

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JHJoe Hudson28:41

       And we're having this moment where I was like, "Oh, you know," I, I'm not sure if I mentioned it's one of my things. I was just like, "Okay, let's go through all your business problem and look at it through the lens of connection. What would make you feel more connected to yourself and others as a solution?" And you could see him come up with, like, multiple solutions to the problem because he's just looking through the lens of that principle.

   27. CWChris Williamson29:00

       Right.

   28. JHJoe Hudson29:01

       And so it's the same thing. And so, so now I have a decision to make. Let's say, like, do I go on the Chris Williamson podcast? And I'm like, everything's an iteration. Okay, I don't give a shit if I po- blow this. Like, why would I care? Okay, that's a one, that's a, and connection. Well, I, I love being with Chris. This is something that makes me feel connected. I'm gonna do it, and I get to connect with a lot of people. Yeah, okay. And so I'll just go through my principles if I have a decision to make-

   29. CWChris Williamson29:26

       Mm

   30. JHJoe Hudson29:26

       ... and I

8. 29:27 – 32:36

   Is Courage the Key to Better Decisions?

   1. JHJoe Hudson29:27

      will, and I'll do it that way.

   2. CWChris Williamson29:27

      It feels like, I mean, we haven't even got into the, like, the structure, but this seems really interesting to me. Kind of the idea of engineering bravery or courage in a way that this is, like, improving your bravery to some degree. It's increasing your preparedness to face scary things. When people think about bravery and courage, a lot of the time that's what it is. Uh-

   3. JHJoe Hudson29:51

      Yeah

   4. CWChris Williamson29:52

      ... so i-i-i, is bravery or courage, are those words that factor into this at all?

   5. JHJoe Hudson29:56

      It's so interesting because as you say it, I, I'm like, yeah, that's true, but it's, it's, but it's not, wasn't the thought process, right?

   6. CWChris Williamson30:04

      Of course.

   7. JHJoe Hudson30:04

      So, so the thought process was what are the thing, how... I can't control the outcome of a decision, but I can control- How I wanna be in that decision-making process. Am I proud of how I made that decision? That's the thing I can control.

   8. CWChris Williamson30:19

      Yeah.

   9. JHJoe Hudson30:19

      So it came from that. It came from, like, I think over a portfolio of decisions, these principles are gonna work, and I'm gonna be proud of them even if they don't work. And if they don't work, I'll iterate on the principles themselves, right?

   10. CWChris Williamson30:32

       You know that from the outside, somebody looking at you choosing to make decisions that are big or scary or difficult-

   11. JHJoe Hudson30:37

       Yeah

   12. CWChris Williamson30:37

       ... whatever, in that way would go, "Wow, that is brave."

   13. JHJoe Hudson30:41

       Right.

   14. CWChris Williamson30:41

       Very courageous-

   15. JHJoe Hudson30:42

       Right

   16. CWChris Williamson30:42

       ... that you've chosen to do that.

   17. JHJoe Hudson30:43

       Right. So, so then, then, then what happens? So this is the cool thing. So then you start making decisions that way, and most of them are easy. You're like, "Okay, I'll make it. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, that makes sense." And then there's one where it's like, "I don't wanna fucking do that." [laughs]

   18. CWChris Williamson30:57

       [laughs]

   19. JHJoe Hudson30:57

       Like, there's nothing in me that wants to do that. But if I look at my principles, it's very clear that's what I'm supposed to do.

   20. CWChris Williamson31:03

       Mm.

   21. JHJoe Hudson31:04

       And you look and you say, "Well, shit, all I can say is that my principles work most of the fucking time, and I can't come up with a better solution, so I'm gonna do it even though I don't wanna do it." And you do it, and maybe it works. Most of the time it works. Occasionally it doesn't work. But every time you act on the principle, the courage req- there, there's less and less courage required.

   22. CWChris Williamson31:31

       Because you are positively reinforced that the principles work, which means you trust them more in future?

   23. JHJoe Hudson31:35

       That's one. And the other one is because you are being who you wanna be, so there is an implicit reward whether, no matter how it works out.

   24. CWChris Williamson31:44

       Yes. Yes. I'm showing up in the way that I want to, and if the choice was between showing up in the way that I want to and the decision going wrong and showing up in the way that I don't want to and the decision going right, a lot of the time-

   25. JHJoe Hudson31:56

       Yeah

   26. CWChris Williamson31:56

       ... people would actually prefer the former to the latter.

   27. JHJoe Hudson31:58

       I think I, I-- Margaret Cho, if I have her name right, she had an early standup. Like I'm saying how old I am. But she had an earl- I think it was her first standup. And she was a comedian who had like an Asian sitcom and it failed. And her whole sitcom thing basically, this one-woman show is it failed, but that's not what hurt. What hurt was I abandoned myself and then it failed. I would rather have been true to myself and fail-

   28. CWChris Williamson32:32

       Yeah

   29. JHJoe Hudson32:32

       ... than been fake and succeed.

9. 32:36 – 39:31

   The Hidden Trap of Audience Capture

   1. CWChris Williamson32:36

      Have I taught you about audience capture before? Do you know this term?

   2. JHJoe Hudson32:38

      No, no.

   3. CWChris Williamson32:39

      You-- I detest how afflicted you are with not being on the internet.

   4. JHJoe Hudson32:44

      [laughs]

   5. CWChris Williamson32:44

      I re- I require you to be more terminally online. Fucking infuriating. Um, uh, okay. So, um, audience capture is when a creator, typically on the internet, but I'm sure it's happened with newscasters and, and, and people in late night shows and more traditional media as well, uh, begins to not create what they want to, but they create what they think their audience wants. So it's referred to-

   6. JHJoe Hudson33:10

      Ah

   7. CWChris Williamson33:10

      ... as throwing red meat to the audience.

   8. JHJoe Hudson33:11

      I get it. Yeah, yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson33:12

      Um, very common and may have even been born out of the politics wing. Uh, if you're a political commentator, you know, you have your takes and your audience comes to you. "Wow, that's an interesting take for the person that's on the left or the right or the whatever." And then after a while you realize because you're looking at the popularity, uh, maybe the play count, the positive reinforcement that you get, "Ooh, when I talk in this way about this kind of subject from this lens, people seem to give me more positive reinforcement." And over time you like Pavlovian-ly con- condition yourself into this type of behavior.

   10. JHJoe Hudson33:46

       Gotcha.

   11. CWChris Williamson33:46

       What's interesting about this is-

   12. JHJoe Hudson33:49

       Wow

   13. CWChris Williamson33:49

       ... it's almost like a looking glass creator-

   14. JHJoe Hudson33:51

       Wow

   15. CWChris Williamson33:51

       ... here.

   16. JHJoe Hudson33:52

       Yeah, yeah.

   17. CWChris Williamson33:53

       Yeah. It's fucking cool, eh?

   18. JHJoe Hudson33:54

       Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts here. [laughs]

   19. CWChris Williamson33:55

       Um, um, what you-- The thing that's one interesting wrinkle is it's not what the creator knows the audience wants, it's what the creator thinks that the audience wants.

   20. JHJoe Hudson34:08

       Right.

   21. CWChris Williamson34:08

       And people don't always know what they want.

   22. JHJoe Hudson34:10

       Right.

   23. CWChris Williamson34:10

       Which is interesting.

   24. JHJoe Hudson34:11

       Yes.

   25. CWChris Williamson34:11

       Like what's that Henry Ford line? "If I asked the customer what he wanted, he would say a faster horse."

   26. JHJoe Hudson34:14

       Faster horse. Yeah, yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson34:16

       Um, so that, that's, that's one interesting thing. And then you roll the clock forward a little bit. You know, roll the clock forward six months, one year, a couple of years. This creator is now, uh, out of touch with their taste, uh, because they haven't created something from themselves for a very long time.

   28. JHJoe Hudson34:29

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson34:30

       They are kind of marionetted or puppeted by the audience.

   30. JHJoe Hudson34:35

       Yeah.
10. 39:31 – 44:04

    Why Your Principles Matter More Than You Think

    1. JHJoe Hudson39:31

       pretty principled life.

    2. CWChris Williamson39:32

       Does this mean that we need to canonize our principles before we can start making good decisions?

    3. JHJoe Hudson39:37

       I don't think before, but it's super freaking useful.

    4. CWChris Williamson39:39

       Okay. So do we need to talk about-

    5. JHJoe Hudson39:40

       Yeah. So we have a, we have a, we have a course called The Great Decisions course, and that is one of the things-

    6. CWChris Williamson39:43

       Which everyone needs to get ready to sign up for 'cause it's in January?

    7. JHJoe Hudson39:47

       January. January. Sells out usually in a day.

    8. CWChris Williamson39:49

       Fuck, yeah.

    9. JHJoe Hudson39:50

       Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson39:50

        Well, okay, get ready.

    11. JHJoe Hudson39:51

        Yeah. [laughs]

    12. CWChris Williamson39:52

        Um-

    13. JHJoe Hudson39:52

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson39:53

        Yeah. Does this mean, okay, process, component skills-

    15. JHJoe Hudson39:56

        So that's one of it, yeah

    16. CWChris Williamson39:57

        ... decision-making. Does that mean that, is that one of the first things to do? I mean, you're not gonna stop making decisions. You'll be like, "I'm gonna put all decisions in a holding pattern-

    17. JHJoe Hudson40:04

        Right. No, no, no. [laughs]

    18. CWChris Williamson40:05

        ... including what pants I'm gonna wear today, up until the point at which I've done my principles."

    19. JHJoe Hudson40:08

        Well, the, yeah, so one of the things you can do is just start looking at the decisions you made in the last year and say, "What are the principles I've actually lived by? Or am I, am I proud of those, and are they working?"

    20. CWChris Williamson40:16

        Might be a ugly reflection.

    21. JHJoe Hudson40:18

        Yeah. For a lot of people it is. But yeah, so two main components of great decision-making and great ma- making great choices is, can I become comfortable with all sorts of emotions so that I have my s- my set of solutions available to me? And the other one is-

    22. CWChris Williamson40:37

        I'm prepared to talk to the girl in the bar.

    23. JHJoe Hudson40:38

        Right. And the other one is, what are the principles that I wanna live by that are going to lead me to success, that are gonna solve most of my problems for me if I just live by my principles?

    24. CWChris Williamson40:50

        Mm.

    25. JHJoe Hudson40:50

        And those two things are gonna be incredibly, like, that's a, a huge portion of the work. Yeah. That, that's really the summary.

    26. CWChris Williamson40:59

        I imagine that's gonna be hugely disappointing to a lot of people, that they were expecting to have some lovely framework for how to bypass having to feel things-

    27. JHJoe Hudson41:06

        [laughs]

    28. CWChris Williamson41:07

        ... or having to face things. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. What's the flowchart that I follow in order to make sure that my decision doesn't require me to encounter any negative emotions?

    29. JHJoe Hudson41:15

        Yeah. Yeah, so here's, here's a, here's the coolest thing. This is one of the things I get to see in my work so much. This, and I ha- and they're gonna hate this even more.

    30. CWChris Williamson41:25

        Brilliant.
11. 44:04 – 53:27

    The Emotions That Control Your Decisions

    1. CWChris Williamson44:04

       What are the most common emotions that, uh, people encounter when it comes to that, that's stuck with a decision?

    2. JHJoe Hudson44:11

       Anger, fear, and grief. Sadness. Yeah, sometimes helplessness. Yeah. The, some of the really, like, hardcore decisions. But the, but the, underneath that emotional content is, like, the identity breaking, right? So with my daughter, there's like, she had to let go of this identity of being the smart one, of the straight A student, of the one who can get anything she wants done, done. She had to say, "I'm gonna be myself, and people can accept me or not accept me." And that was her anger. Her anger was, "Fuck you. Like, I don't care if you judge me. If it's, if your, if your school can't see me, go fuck yourself."

    3. CWChris Williamson44:51

       This keeps on sounding like bravery and courage. Like, that's the word, and maybe my conception of bravery is, is tied up in, in decisions more closely than it should be. But, like, you hear that and you say, "Hey, this p- place is gonna take me or it's not gonna take me, and I'm a 17, 18-year-old girl, and, you know, it's a big deal, and all of my friends are gonna have things to say if I don't get into college or whatever."

    4. JHJoe Hudson45:15

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson45:15

       "And I don't care. I'm just going to do the me thing." Like, that level of... It, it, from the outside, it seems like self-assuredness, self-esteem, self-worth, confidence-

    6. JHJoe Hudson45:25

       Yeah

    7. CWChris Williamson45:25

       ... resilience, bravery, courage.

    8. JHJoe Hudson45:28

       Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson45:28

       It's like all of these things wrapped up in-

    10. JHJoe Hudson45:31

        It doesn't feel like it in the moment. I'm with you because I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, that's true. I can't, I can't deny it." But in the moment when you're doing it, it feels like I'm being honest.

    11. CWChris Williamson45:42

        Hmm.

    12. JHJoe Hudson45:43

        So it doesn't feel like shit. There is that moment of like, "Oh my gosh," 'cause there is like the, "I'm stepping into a bigger room." There's like, "Oh my God, I'm getting on stage and I'm doing this thing." There is that excitement that comes along with it. So you feel the excitement, but mostly you feel, like, honesty.

    13. CWChris Williamson46:00

        Hmm.

    14. JHJoe Hudson46:01

        Right? Because we kn- we know what it feels like when we compromise ourselves. It doesn't feel good. Like, it, uh, like there's a way to say it takes a lot of courage and bravery to feel like you're compromising yourself.

    15. CWChris Williamson46:13

        Yeah.

    16. JHJoe Hudson46:13

        That feels, like, far worse than feeling like you've done the right thing and been rejected.

    17. CWChris Williamson46:19

        Alex has a line where he says, "Fear is an inch deep and a mile wide." That when-

    18. JHJoe Hudson46:23

        [laughs] That's so good. Hold on. That's so good. That's so good.

    19. CWChris Williamson46:29

        Yeah.

    20. JHJoe Hudson46:29

        That is so freaking good.

    21. CWChris Williamson46:31

        Yeah.

    22. JHJoe Hudson46:32

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson46:32

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    24. JHJoe Hudson46:32

        That's right.

    25. CWChris Williamson46:32

        They're looking out over this massive lake and, you know, "My God, how am I ever gonna be able to... It's so terrifying." You go like, "Oh," and it's a little splash.

    26. JHJoe Hudson46:40

        That's right.

    27. CWChris Williamson46:41

        You go, "Oh, fuck."

    28. JHJoe Hudson46:42

        Right.

    29. CWChris Williamson46:42

        "It wasn't that bad."

    30. JHJoe Hudson46:43

        Yeah.
12. 53:27 – 1:03:43

    How to Make Conscious Choices

    1. CWChris Williamson53:27

       Okay.

    2. JHJoe Hudson53:27

       For me.

    3. CWChris Williamson53:27

       What else, what else is there to say about breaking down those component skills that, that we haven't covered so far?

    4. JHJoe Hudson53:33

       Yeah. Th- so the, the, on the choice side of things that's really important is to slow down. The, this is where you get into the world of habits. The underlying principle is that your identity is still at stake, right? So you still have to work through the identity piece. But, but the other piece is to really be able to slow down the emotional process that's happening there and be present with it in one way or another. So if you are, um, trying to quit coffee, as an example, 'cause your coffee somehow you've decided is bad for you. Um, what you [laughs] what you should do instead is reach for a Neutonic. Uh... [laughs]

    5. CWChris Williamson54:18

       Yes. Sound like a true investor.

    6. JHJoe Hudson54:22

       Um, uh, you have like a series of habits that are gonna trigger that desire for the coffee. It's gonna be an unconscious reach for the coffee when you drink it. Can you Actually be totally present. What's the emotion that's happening before you drink the coffee that makes you want to drink the coffee, that you get after the coffee? To slowly unpack that experience and start noticing what you're avoiding or trying to run into.

    7. CWChris Williamson54:51

       So this is kind of unwinding current choices to become decisions-

    8. JHJoe Hudson54:55

       Yeah

    9. CWChris Williamson54:55

       ... in a way.

    10. JHJoe Hudson54:55

        Yeah, yeah. I would say making-- turning choices into consc- conscious choices.

    11. CWChris Williamson55:01

        Right. Yep.

    12. JHJoe Hudson55:01

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson55:01

        Yep.

    14. JHJoe Hudson55:01

        And, and so that's a really important skill set if you want to change kind of the habitual choices that you're making.

    15. CWChris Williamson55:09

        Mm-hmm.

    16. JHJoe Hudson55:09

        Which is, there's lots of tricks and, and, uh, James Clear is amazing at what he writes for all the tics, tips and tricks. But one of the key ones on the emotional level, because the decisions are being made emotionally, is, "Can I slow down, unpack, and feel the stuff that I don't wanna feel that drives me into some bad habits?"

    17. CWChris Williamson55:31

        It comes back to awareness-

    18. JHJoe Hudson55:32

        Yes

    19. CWChris Williamson55:32

        ... again.

    20. JHJoe Hudson55:33

        Yes.

    21. CWChris Williamson55:33

        Interestingly. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I can give you a, a- an example from my own life that because I've been fighting with health stuff for the last couple of years, a lot of the time that's disrupted my sleep. And when I wake up on a morning, if my body decides it wants to rip me awake at 3:00 AM or 4:00 AM or something, and there is this story that I tell myself of, "Oh, well, fuck, like, today's already gonna be ruined, and this is really, really painful, and I'm gonna lie awake and I'm gonna stare at the ceiling, and this is super annoying, and isn't that gonna suck? And I'm not gonna perform as well on the podcast, and then maybe people are gonna laugh or they're not gonna like me and my whole life's gonna fall apart, and I get gluten intolerance and live under a bridge, and it's all gonna go wrong." And reaching for my phone and being, distracting myself from that emotion-

    22. JHJoe Hudson56:17

        Yeah

    23. CWChris Williamson56:18

        ... is now, after a while, your sleep has improved, which has meant the fear's gone away, but you're left with the fucking residue of the habit.

    24. JHJoe Hudson56:27

        [laughs]

    25. CWChris Williamson56:29

        It's this very strange situation where-

    26. JHJoe Hudson56:31

        Oh, brilliant. Yes

    27. CWChris Williamson56:32

        ... you're, you're-

    28. JHJoe Hudson56:32

        That's very-

    29. CWChris Williamson56:33

        ... you're being puppeted by the coping mechanism of a emotion that you're no longer feeling.

    30. JHJoe Hudson56:39

        Right.
13. 1:03:43 – 1:09:44

    How to Face the Biggest Decision of Your Life

    1. CWChris Williamson1:03:43

       Is there a category of decision that is markedly different? People, some people may have problems with, like, what, what am I even gonna wear today or, you know, how am I gonna have a conversation with this barista at the, at the coffee shop? But for the most part, I think it's gonna be bigger things.

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:04:02

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:04:02

       And when it comes to bigger things, am I going to stay in this relationship or not? Am I gonna marry this person or not? Am I gonna leave this job or not? Am I gonna move to a new city or country or not?

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:04:12

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:04:14

       How-- I- is, is there anything different when it comes to that? Because it's less routine, right? Like, you're not go-- This is less of a reversible door. Not necessarily a reversible door, but significant.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:04:23

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:04:23

       Like, fuck, if you're gonna, like, move back from a country-

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:04:26

       Yeah, yeah

    9. CWChris Williamson1:04:26

       ... you've picked up all of your possessions and you've gone over there, and maybe there's financial implications and stuff.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:04:29

        Yeah, yeah.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:04:30

        Like, things happening.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:04:30

        Yeah, yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:04:31

        And also, how many times have you moved countries previously? Like, show me the CV of how this has gone for you in the past. I don't know. I've never done it.

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:04:37

        [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:04:38

        Um, uh, I'm thinking about when people are facing the biggest decisions of their life-

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:04:43

        Yeah

    17. CWChris Williamson1:04:43

        ... what they feel are the most impactful, the most momentous, the scariest, the grandest.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:04:48

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:04:48

        How do you advise them to go through that?

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:04:49

        Well, there's a couple things that I think are really important to see first, and then we can talk about the advice. So the, the-- you started with the guy who's like, "How do I talk to the barista?" It doesn't matter if it's how do I talk to the barista if the decision is, like, as hard as it is to, like, where do I move? It's because the identity is at stake. So that person probably has, like, social anxiety, some sort of version of that, and they're like, "Oh my God," like, "Am I gonna be liked? Am I gonna be..." Like, their whole identity of I am a person who's not good with other people is at stake if they talk to the barista.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:05:26

        Hmm.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:05:27

        Uh, the person who's, like, moving, their whole identity is at stake for, like, more obvious reasons like, "I'm a, I'm a, I'm a British guy in England who's a party boy. I am a guy in Austin. Well, who the-- what the fuck is Austin? Who's gonna like me?" Right? So the identity starts-- In either case, that's, like, a really important piece to understand. The other thing to understand is that we have no idea what our big decisions are. We have no fucking idea what the big decisions are. So you could say my big decision was to marry my wife, Tara. Well, how about the decision to meet my wife? I didn't make it. How about the first date? I wouldn't even gotten to getting married if I didn't have the first date decision.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:06:09

        Mm-hmm.

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:06:09

        Right? So there's a whole bunch of little choices that I made along the way that allowed for the dec- for me to even be considering whether I am going to-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:06:19

        Yeah

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:06:19

        ... marry my wife.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:06:21

        I think that's interesting. It's certainly true that there are some choices or decisions that we face that we don't realize what the future impact of them will be.

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:06:31

        Yeah.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:06:31

        Um, but I would say that there is a certain category of decision or choice that we are going to make where we realize the likelihood of this being small isn't that great. Like, this is probably going to be a big decision.

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:06:45

        Right.
14. 1:09:44 – 1:12:47

    Why Change Feels So Scary

    1. CWChris Williamson1:09:44

       Is the-- Do, do you, do you think about fear of change? I- is that playing in? 'Cause most decisions will result in some kind of change.

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:09:52

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:09:53

       I, I suppose, interestingly, uh, inaction is also a decision, right? The decision to continue doing what's happening now. We have, like, a status quo an- anchoring bias, inertia, momentum thing that kind of-

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:10:03

       Yeah

    5. CWChris Williamson1:10:03

       ... carries us through, and, yeah. Well, that's also kind of a decision. It's just a d- a decision to not change as opposed to a decision to change. But I think about fear of change, difference, different, being, things being different.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:10:14

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:10:14

       Is that, does, does that, has this got a role to play in action and-

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:10:16

       So I, I just think it's, like, a higher order or lower order, right? So fear of change. What's actually the behind the fear of change? The fear of change is the unknown, and what's behind the unknown? I'm not gonna be okay.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:10:27

       Hmm.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:10:28

        And I'm not gonna be okay as identity. So I'm scared that I, the job situation's gonna change. Okay, cool. I guarantee you the job situation's gonna change, but I also guarantee you that you are gonna be better off because of it. Okay, cool. I don't, I'm not scared of the change anymore. I'm only scared of the change because of the potential negative repercussions on me. It's an unknown thing that might be bad for me.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:10:53

        Hmm.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:10:53

        And it's the me that's the essential part of it. So yeah, I do, but obviously, there's a fear of change. It's just a higher order. It's like, it's not the core of what you're dealing with.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:11:03

        Understood.

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:11:04

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:11:05

        Is there anything else to say on the difficult decision, big, grand decision process?

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:11:09

        No, not much. Just that it's a great opportunity. I mean, I've had some amazing... That level of, like, if I have a client come to me and they're like, "I'm in a big transformation moment in my life, like, shit is changing," I'm like, "Yay." [laughs] Because that's where the most growth is gonna happen for a person.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:11:25

        Yep.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:11:26

        And if you look at your own life and you say, "When did I grow the most as a human?"

    19. CWChris Williamson1:11:31

        Hmm.

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:11:31

        "Or decline the most because I didn't pay attention?"

    21. CWChris Williamson1:11:34

        Yes.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:11:35

        It's gonna be those moments of transformation. And so, so I get excited for them. They're a huge opportunity, so that-

    23. CWChris Williamson1:11:41

        I'm aware, I'm aware you get excited because-

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:11:43

        [laughs]

    25. CWChris Williamson1:11:45

        ... because you are the cross-leggy emotional equivalent of a Navy SEAL drill sergeant.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:11:52

        Right.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:11:52

        Or, like, a particularly rough PT. Like, y- anyone that's ever worked with a trainer or been on a sports team or whatever, and they've seen the strength and conditioning coach. The strength and conditioning coach has got this unnerving grin on their face on the morning of one practice, and they're like, "Oh, we're gonna have fun today." That's the face you pull.

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:12:10

        Yeah. [laughs]

    29. CWChris Williamson1:12:10

        That's the face you pull more than you should as you're staring. It is, because you're a bastard, and you-

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:12:18

        [laughs]
15. 1:12:47 – 1:18:16

    What Actually Makes a Decision Bad?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:12:48

       Are there any big indicators that somebody's about to make a terrible decision that you could see, that somebody could sense inside of themselves whether they're about to like, "Oh, I'm pointing in the wr- I'm really pointing in the wrong direction"? The reason I ask this is-

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:13:02

       Yes

    3. CWChris Williamson1:13:02

       ... I think-- Good.

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:13:03

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:13:04

       Uh, I think, um- W- Expediting success is, is great and what we want, but avoiding failure, like the, um, what's, uh, Warren Buffett's two pieces of a trading advice? Uh, uh, number one is never lose money, and number two is please read number one. Um, that i- if you can go through life avoiding pitfalls, that's a pretty fucking good start.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:13:29

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:13:29

       And expediting success can come after rule number one-

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:13:33

       Yeah

    9. CWChris Williamson1:13:33

       ... of avoiding pitfalls. So i- somebody is about to make a terrible decision. What's going on?

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:13:39

        So I think there needs to be a definition of, like, what does it mean to make a terrible decision, [chuckles] right? So most people think a terrible decision is a decision where they don't get what they want.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:13:51

        Hmm.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:13:51

        That's what they think a terrible decision is. Meaning, like, they're sitting there saying to themselves, "I want a girl." No, "I want a can of-"

    13. CWChris Williamson1:14:00

        Cola, Frostie. That's not a terrible decision. Use something else.

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:14:03

        Yeah, exactly. [laughs]

    15. CWChris Williamson1:14:04

        "I want a cigarette."

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:14:05

        "I want a cigarette." [laughs]

    17. CWChris Williamson1:14:05

        "I want a cigarette." There we go.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:14:06

        "I want a cigarette." And they, they-- and if they get the cigarette, then they have m- made a successful decision.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:14:18

        Hmm.

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:14:20

        That's what they're thinking, right? "I want the girl. Did I get the girl? I made a good decision. I want the money. Did I get the money? I made a good decision. I want the job. Did I get the job? I made a good decision." That is not what makes a good decision because the question is, if I got the cigarette, did the cigarette actually give me what I want over the next year, month, week, decade? If I got the girl, did I get the thing?

    21. CWChris Williamson1:14:48

        Hmm.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:14:49

        Right? Yesterday we talked about people be successful so that they can get the mate of their choice, but then the mate of their choice is, the only mate of their choice are the transactional ones who only want them for their success.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:15:00

        Yeah.

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:15:01

        So, so the, the question is, if you're thinking about it that way, no, I don't have a way to tell you if you're making a great choice or a bad choice. I can tell you that the, um, more fear that's in the choice makes it less likely that you're gonna get the thing you want.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:15:19

        Right.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:15:20

        Because if I'm coming to you with something that I want and I'm scared I'm not gonna get it, you're less likely to give it to me.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:15:26

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:15:27

        "I was wondering if you could donate to my cause?"

    29. CWChris Williamson1:15:32

        Yeah.

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:15:33

        Right? Isn't gonna be as good as like, "Hey, I've got this great cause." So the more fear that I have, I'm probably gonna not get the thing that I want. The more fear that I'm running when I'm doing it. Not that fear is a bad thing, it just means your fear is unprocessed.
16. 1:18:16 – 1:20:46

    Is Seeking Reassurance a Form of Self-Abandonment?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:18:16

       I can imagine there's a certain category of person who constantly needs reassurance from others that their decisions are okay.

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:18:23

       Every single one of those moments of needing reassurance from others is a self-abandonment.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:18:27

       Why?

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:18:29

       Uh, how do you explain this? Um, it's saying, "I don't know what's right for me," which is a lie.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:18:38

       Hmm.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:18:38

       "But you do," which means I am literally giving my power over to you. I'm h- I'm saying, "And I'm giving my happiness. The responsibility for my happiness is yours now, not mine," which is an, a self, a self-abandonment. And I'm saying, "You know the answer for me," when the truth is that I know the answer for myself. All of that is some level of self-abandonment.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:18:59

       In other news, have you ever noticed how some websites make it ridiculously easy to buy while some feel infinitely harder?

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:19:05

       Back in my day, I had to walk 10 miles to the local store.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:19:09

       Aren't you younger than me?

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:19:10

        Yeah, but my dad got a DUI.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:19:13

        Anyway, the reality is most businesses just get the website wrong, and if your setup is messy, you lose a ton of sales, which is why I'm such a massive fan of Shopify. They power 10% of all e-commerce in the United States, including brands like Gymshark, Skims, Alo, and Neutonic. Because when it comes to converting browsers into buyers, they are best in class. Their checkout's 36% better on average compared to other platforms, and with Shop Pay can boost conversions by 50%. So upgrade your business and get the exact same checkout that we use at Neutonic with Shopify. You can sign up for a free trial period by going to the link in the description below or heading to shopify.com/modernwisdom. That's shopify.com/modernwisdom. How do you split the difference between that and genuinely having a friend that is a good confidant, that has a degree of expertise, that knows you, that is able to see things that you don't see? You know, that this would make a, a wonderful case for never listening to anybody ever about anything in your life.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:20:13

        Oh, no, I, I, I'm not ever saying don't listen to people. I think listening to people is, like, s- where a tremendous amount of wisdom comes from. I'm saying that if you're looking for their approval.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:20:26

        Mm.

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:20:26

        And there's, uh, like a-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:20:27

        Is this okay?

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:20:28

        ... big difference.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:20:29

        Is this okay for me to do?

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:20:30

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:20:31

        Yeah.

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:20:31

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:20:31

        Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:20:32

        Like, somehow or another, it's like if you're saying... If you can't say, "I feel good about doing this," without, like, looking over to you and say, "Is it all right that we do this?" Then you know you're, you're abandoning yourself.

17. 1:20:46 – 1:24:48

    Is Decisiveness Just Confidence in Uncertainty?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:20:46

       How much of decisiveness do you think is learning to cope with increasing amounts of uncertainty?

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:20:58

       Yeah. So without a doubt, y- if you're, if you are confident in your identity, decisiveness increases dramatically.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:21:07

       Mm.

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:21:09

       People who have a very stable sense of self are far more decisive than people who don't. There is also... There's, in business, what you'll notice is that most CEOs start realizing that making decisions is better than getting decisions right.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:21:30

       Making decisions is better than getting decisions right?

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:21:33

       Yes. Meaning, if I have a choice between making 10 decisions a day and making them right, making sure that they're right, which I never perfectly do, or making 100 decisions a day and just getting them made, the 100 decisions a day is a better choice. And the reason is, is because as soon as you make a decision, then you're testing your thesis against reality.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:22:00

       Yeah.

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:22:00

       If I'm sitting there going, "How do we market? Well, let's make sure we market it best. What's the thing?" And do all the data, I have n- I'm not running any experiments. I'm not actually going, "Well, what did the audience say? Okay, what did I learn?" As soon as I make a decision, then I run an experiment, then I learn something, then I can make another experiment, then I can... I'm interacting with the world and learning from the world immediately. And so making the decision allows the action to happen so that the learning can occur. And so it's the same in life, is that m- be- making that decision is really important. The thing that stops you from making the decision is, again, if your identity is in jeopardy. So there's certain identities, like if I have the identity of I'm an action guy, then it's easy for me to be decisive by nature.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:22:41

       Yeah.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:22:42

        But if I have the identity of I have to be right because every time I was wrong, my parents criticized me for 20 years and made fun of me, and like six years later, I'm at the dinner table and I'm still being told how I like made a mistake from six years ago, then I'm gonna be like, "Okay, I gotta, I gotta make this thing right."

    11. CWChris Williamson1:22:59

        Mm.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:23:00

        Because my identity is, is engaged. And so as people start to be really confident of like, "This is who I am and I'm valuable just because I'm valuable"-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:23:13

        Mm

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:23:13

        ... those people become far, far more decisive. And, and even more than that, it's like i- there's less decisions and more choice because there's less fear, because there's less-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:23:24

        Yeah. Gotcha

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:23:24

        ... there's less identity at stake. Like, what, like, what, what, what do I have to worry about?

    17. CWChris Williamson1:23:31

        George has this line, he says, "I'd rather be high conviction and wrong than low conviction and right."

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:23:36

        Oh, fucking right. Absolutely.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:23:38

        Isn't that cool?

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:23:39

        I, yeah. Because I will learn I'm wrong a lot quicker.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:23:42

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:23:43

        [laughs]

    23. CWChris Williamson1:23:44

        Yeah, yeah. I'd rather-

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:23:44

        Yeah

    25. CWChris Williamson1:23:45

        ... be high conviction and wrong than low conviction.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:23:46

        I love this thought process. The, there's this, uh, test we use for gauging talent, and it's a, a test that has, uh, X, Y axes that people think are not, uh... They, they think they're contrary when they're not contrary, and it's called paradox axes. And so one of them is conviction and one of them is openness. And most people think you can either be convicted and open.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:24:13

        Mm.

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:24:13

        But this graph is basically saying you can be high in convicted, high in openness, low in both, right?

    29. CWChris Williamson1:24:20

        Where do you place yourself on the graph?

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:24:22

        I, um, I test as, uh, both very open and very convicted.
18. 1:24:48 – 1:28:30

    Does Regret Paralyse Our Ability to Make Decisions?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:24:48

       Yeah. Does regret play a role here? Lots of people fear future potential regret, so much so that they get stuck and paralyzed in the moment now. They almost transpose it from the future and start to feel it down in the present.

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:25:08

       Yeah. Yeah, I see that for sure. The interesting thing that I notice with a lot of people, and I think this is really useful for folks at home- Do you re- will you regret what you're imagining will happen more than you regret being indecisive for three months about whether to marry the woman or not?

    3. CWChris Williamson1:25:32

       Hmm.

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:25:34

       Like, what's interesting is that the thing that people fear is often the thing that they are feeling and stuck in, in the moment of trying to make the decision.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:25:45

       Hmm.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:25:47

       Like, "I'm really scared that if I marry her, I'm gonna be stuck." You're stuck right now trying to make this decision for six months. "I am really scared that I'm going to regret that I wasted my time if I do this wrong." You're wasting your time right now in making this, like, decision for, like, three to six months.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:26:09

       In your low-conviction stew.

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:26:10

       [chuckles] Exactly. So, so what's amazing is that the, oftentimes the thing that people are scared, the emotional consequences people are scared of are far less. They're one inch, but the shit you're stewing in right now is, like, 10 inches deep.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:26:26

       Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:26:26

        To use Alex's metaphor.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:26:27

        There's a, a line from Alain de Botton talking about leaving relationships, and he says, uh, "People are worried about leaving relationships because they're scared of being lonely, but what they don't realize is that exiting is the first step towards feeling connected."

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:26:43

        Yes.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:26:43

        "That the loneliness they fear is what they're already enduring."

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:26:46

        Exactly. That's exactly-- That's oftentimes the, the, the consequence that we're scared of in the decision is the thing that we're actually currently suffering.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:26:55

        Yeah. And is less, at a, at a velocity or an amplitude that's less than, than we're currently-

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:27:00

        Yeah

    17. CWChris Williamson1:27:00

        ... dealing with.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:27:01

        Well, there's also the opportunity for it to stop, [chuckles] where there isn't any opportunity to stop unless you take the action.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:27:06

        Yeah. And presumably less shame-

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:27:09

        Yes

    21. CWChris Williamson1:27:09

        ... around, "Well, I am doing this to myself."

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:27:13

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:27:13

        "I'm choosing to. I'm, like, imprisoned inside of this cell, and I know that not only am I the prisoner, but I'm also the captor that's holding the keys."

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:27:26

        Yeah.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:27:26

        "And for some reason, I refuse to put the key in the fucking lock and turn it-"

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:27:29

        Right

    27. CWChris Williamson1:27:30

        "... and open the gate."

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:27:31

        Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that's really interesting is I think people when they're, they're, they're in that deep indecisiveness, they really forget that they're being super self-abusive.

    29. CWChris Williamson1:27:41

        Hmm.

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:27:41

        There's a lot of self-abuse in that. You have to get it right. Why? Why can't you get it wrong? What's the problem? Like, you, you don't know. It's like you're literally telling yourself, "You have to get it right. You don't know. You don't know what's best for you. You don't-- Like, you can't-- And whatever happens, you're not gonna be able to work yourself out of it." You know that, right? Like, you're not gonna just be able to take it as a lesson and then, like, grow from it. It's gonna destroy you forever. Like, that's the, that's the subtext of being indecisive, right? And so that level of self-abuse is, is, is often unacknowledged or unrecognized, and when somebody actually sees it, it often can allow them to see, like, themselves in a way that allows them to be more decisive.

19. 1:28:30 – 1:29:47

    What Are the Costs of Indecision?

    1. CWChris Williamson1:28:30

       Can you go, just for a little bit, can you go full Joe Hudson, Connor Beaton crossover and apply as much pain as possible to people that are being indecisive?

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:28:39

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson1:28:40

       Like, what, what are the costs that people-

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:28:43

       Not to apply pain.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:28:44

       But w-

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:28:44

       To give them freedom

    7. CWChris Williamson1:28:44

       ... apply some pressure. Give them the gravitas of the situation. Like, how important is this, and, and what is it that they-- What is it that this situation is costing them if they choo- if they're continuing to, if they continue to be indecisive? What does indecisiveness cost you?

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:29:02

       Yeah. Um, I, I think the thing I would say in that is some version of, "I'm, I'm really sorry you're depressed and that somehow or another you think you need to be perfect to be valuable, to be loved, to be worthy, and you, you don't. And if you could see yourself clearly for a moment, you would see that this decision isn't gonna define you for who you are and that you're worthy of love no matter what decision you make here."

    9. CWChris Williamson1:29:38

       Hmm.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:29:38

        "So make the one you're proud of."

    11. CWChris Williamson1:29:40

        Hmm.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:29:41

        I would say something like that.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:29:43

        Hmm.

20. 1:29:47 – 1:37:05

    How to Take Back Control of Your Choices

    1. CWChris Williamson1:29:47

       What else is there to say to-

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:29:49

       You dweeb.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:29:50

       You dweeb. Yeah.

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:29:50

       [laughs]

    5. CWChris Williamson1:29:52

       Fucking idiot. How does this relate to assertiveness? 'Cause I imagine maybe not quite the same.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:30:01

       Yeah, yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:30:02

       But the people-pleasing, the standing up for myself, the saying what's true for me, the, the assertiveness. I imagine people who have clicked on an episode about decision-making to become better with their decisions-

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:30:14

       Yeah

    9. CWChris Williamson1:30:14

       ... may also, you know, like the, "You may also like this"-

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:30:17

        Yeah, yeah. [chuckles]

    11. CWChris Williamson1:30:17

        ... uh, thing. It's like, you may also be interested in being more assertive.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:30:21

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:30:21

        How do you come to think about assertiveness?

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:30:24

        I'm not gonna be audience-shaped. Like, what was-- I'm sorry, what was it called? Audience-

    15. CWChris Williamson1:30:29

        Captured.

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:30:29

        Yeah, I'm not gonna be audience captured like that. I don't give a fuck what they want.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:30:31

        Oh, that's right. Yeah. Fuck you.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:30:33

        [laughs]

    19. CWChris Williamson1:30:33

        Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no.

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:30:34

        Um-

    21. CWChris Williamson1:30:34

        I'm gonna talk about fucking sushi.

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:30:36

        Sushi. [laughs]

    23. CWChris Williamson1:30:36

        Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah.

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:30:37

        Exactly.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:30:38

        Yeah.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:30:38

        Um, I, assertiveness I think can be... So there's a difference between being assertive, I would say, and having agency. I would say that if you do the work to be decisive, you definitely feel like you have more agency.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:30:55

        Hmm. Mm-hmm.

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:30:56

        Agency doesn't-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:30:57

        I'm coming to life.

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:30:58

        Yeah. Agency doesn't have to be assertive, and I think those get confused a lot.
21. 1:37:05 – 1:38:06

    How to Distinguish Real Intuition From False Instincts

    1. CWChris Williamson1:37:06

       How do people know the difference between the genuine embodied wisdom-fueled intuition and something masquerading as int- intuition, impulsivity, fear that I imagine many clever people that are two hours into a podcast about-

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:37:30

       [laughs]

    3. CWChris Williamson1:37:31

       ... decision-making will be afflicted with? Uh, uh, they've managed to ... cleverly contort and pretzel this thing actually, ooh, that is my intuition speaking.

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:37:41

       Right

    5. CWChris Williamson1:37:41

       But it's not. It's just a, a clever c- like confabulation of, of what is actually fear or maybe it is impulsivity or coping or whatever. Is there a way to discern?

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:37:51

       Yeah, the way, in coaching relationship, it, it is your capacity to understand yourself, right? So the more clearly you see yourself, the more clearly you can see others.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:37:59

       Hmm.

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:38:01

       Like, and, and exactly the way I can't see myself is exactly the way I'm not gonna be able to see you.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:38:05

       Hmm.

22. 1:38:06 – 1:41:50

    Joe’s Recent Retreat

    1. CWChris Williamson1:38:07

       Can we, can you tell me about what your retreat was like that you did recently?

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:38:11

       Oh.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:38:11

       I've been real excited to learn about this. Are you, do you mind talking about this?

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:38:15

       I don't wanna talk about this.

    5. CWChris Williamson1:38:16

       Okay.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:38:16

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson1:38:16

       Okay.

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:38:16

       There's a lot. Uh, I mean, I could j-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:38:18

       Well, we can go for a walk and I'll find out, find out about it, yeah

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:38:20

        ... I, yeah, happy to. I can tell you, I can tell you like a broad thing.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:38:23

        Good.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:38:23

        But I, I can't-

    13. CWChris Williamson1:38:23

        Cool, cool

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:38:24

        ... yeah. Um, yeah, I've been, ever since I was in my 20s, I really got into, uh, the Vedic sciences generally, just as one of the avenues in which I've learned. So I got into Zen. I got into, uh, Hermann Hesse. I got into the Vedic sciences. And the Vedic sciences have a, a part that's all about health, and they have something called Ayurvedic health, and they have something that they do for longevity called panchakarma. You could call it longevity. You could call it health. I call it health. And it's basically like a reset, where there's a very particular diet and they give you, in this particular place where I went, um, they give you like six hours of treatments a day, and they can be-- They're all sorts of crazy treatments. And, um, and so I did it. Uh, it was, I've done it three years in a row now. This is the most intense one that I've ever done. I found a very intense place to go.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:39:23

        Hmm.

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:39:24

        And it was an amazing emotional rollercoaster, which I haven't experienced in years. So that was really cool to like watch my emotions do this thing. And it was a-

    17. CWChris Williamson1:39:33

        Yeah, I imagine that sounds a little bit like a Brazilian jujitsu fourth-degree black belt going, "I got twisted into a pretzel."

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:39:40

        Yeah.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:39:40

        "That's been a little while."

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:39:41

        That's it, yeah. [laughs]

    21. CWChris Williamson1:39:42

        "Yeah, I didn't think that that was gonna happen."

    22. JHJoe Hudson1:39:43

        Yeah.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:39:43

        "I remember what that feels like."

    24. JHJoe Hudson1:39:45

        Yeah, and it was all through physical stuff. So the, the, the part that I enjoyed the most about it is that they really disencourage, discourage talking. So everywhere there's rooms saying silence. There's no phones in the cafeteria. There's no talking in the cafeteria. The-- like, you're basically alone, quiet. It's in a forest, you know? And so-

    25. CWChris Williamson1:40:05

        A little like noble science adjace- uh, noble silence adjacent.

    26. JHJoe Hudson1:40:08

        Yeah. So I got to do a lot of meditation, which made me really happy. So I got to really observe the cra-

    27. CWChris Williamson1:40:14

        The fuckery

    28. JHJoe Hudson1:40:14

        ... the, the, the craziness of basically, I think the mood was mostly just a nervous system because there was a, a huge part of it is a nervous system reset, or in their words, it's like a vata reset. And, and so there was just this massive kind of for the six-day period of just like, "Wow, holy crap. I gotta do things. Wh-why am I gotta do that? I don't need to do anything. Why do I..." Like that kind of-

    29. CWChris Williamson1:40:38

        Yeah, yeah

    30. JHJoe Hudson1:40:39

        ... and I was, and it was in this contrast between like absolute bliss and peace. So I'm like, "Oh, this is amazing." And then it just turned on.
23. 1:41:50 – 1:43:15

    Where to Find Joe

    1. CWChris Williamson1:41:50

       afflicted with it. Uh, dude, I love you.

    2. JHJoe Hudson1:41:52

       What a pleasure to be with you. Thank you.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:41:53

       I love you to bits. Um, people that are interested in this, what should they go and look at? Where should they go?

    4. JHJoe Hudson1:41:59

       Uh, we have the deci- There's, we have a couple podcasts on decision-making that go into some depth on all of the things that we talked about and, uh, the decision, great decisions course. I will say it's only a five-week course, but oftentimes it is an extremely intense course because you're going right into a lot of these emotions. So just, like know that that's what you're-

    5. CWChris Williamson1:42:20

       Treat with care.

    6. JHJoe Hudson1:42:20

       Yeah, that's, know what you're getting into and-

    7. CWChris Williamson1:42:23

       And that's at the s- that begins at the start of the-

    8. JHJoe Hudson1:42:25

       January. I think we sell it the very beginning of January, like as a New Year's resolution kind of thing.

    9. CWChris Williamson1:42:30

       When does that go live? You got any idea? Like when the o- the places open.

    10. JHJoe Hudson1:42:34

        You can get on, you can get onto the waiting list, and the waiting list gets a 24-hour early, uh, thing, and you can get on the waiting list today.

    11. CWChris Williamson1:42:41

        And it usually sells out within the waiting list.

    12. JHJoe Hudson1:42:43

        Very. Within the waiting list.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:42:44

        Yeah. Great, uh, connection course.

    14. JHJoe Hudson1:42:45

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:42:45

        All of the other stuff, Art of Accomplishment podcast. You're the best.

    16. JHJoe Hudson1:42:48

        Thank you.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:42:49

        See you, man.

    18. JHJoe Hudson1:42:49

        Pleasure.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:42:50

        All right. See you next time, my beauties. Dude. [claps]

    20. JHJoe Hudson1:42:54

        That was a good one. Very tight.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:42:56

        A quick note. Lots of people tell us that YouTube unsubscribes them from the channel even though they already pressed it. So just check down there and see if the subscribe button is pressed. You get access to episodes before anybody else if you do. Supports me and the show, helps me to bring you bigger and better guests, uh, and it makes me very happy. So just go and give it a tap for me. I thank you. [blows kiss]

Episode duration: 1:43:15