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How To Not Let Your Past Define You - Scott Barry Kaufman

Scott Barry Kaufman is a Psychologist at Columbia University, a writer and podcaster. Why is victim culture so common in the West? Everyone’s been hurt, so it’s easy to claim victimhood, so why has it become a core identity, and how do we honour pain without being defined by it? Expect to learn where a victimhood mentality comes from, what predicts whether someone is likely to fall into the victimhood trap or mindset and if modern culture is contributing or incentivising victimhood, the most harmful myths around identity and trauma, how you cultivate psychological flexibility in moments of deep emotional pain, the big difference between authenticity and self-esteem, and much more… - 00:00 Reconciling With Your Past 04:45 What is Victimhood Mentality? 10:26 Where Does Victim Mentality Come From? 14:30 Why is Victimhood So Seductive? 17:46 Our Feeling of Being Broken 20:28 Victimhood in Evolution 30:50 Are Genes Destiny? 37:35 The Dynamics of Epigenetics 44:46 Researching Highly Sensitive People 50:34 How to Recognise if You Are Highly Sensitive 59:19 Advice for Highly Sensitive People 1:04:56 The Role of Internally-Generated Safety 1:09:29 Links Between Self-Esteem & Victimhood 1:12:17 Accepting Your Past Without Being Ruled By It 1:14:05 Where to Find Scott - Get access to every episode 10 hours before YouTube by subscribing for free on Spotify - https://spoti.fi/2LSimPn or Apple Podcasts - https://apple.co/2MNqIgw Get my free Reading List of 100 life-changing books here - https://chriswillx.com/books/ Try my productivity energy drink Neutonic here - https://neutonic.com/modernwisdom - Get in touch in the comments below or head to... Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chriswillx Twitter: https://www.twitter.com/chriswillx Email: https://chriswillx.com/contact/

Chris WilliamsonhostScott Barry Kaufmanguest
May 29, 20251h 14mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 4:45

    Reconciling With Your Past

    1. CW

      "Sooner or later, you have to give up all hope for a better past." What's up with that?

    2. SK

      Yes. Isn't that a great quote? It's- it's probably my favorite quote, out of all quotes (laughs) in the history of the world. Um, the, uh, psychotherapist Irving Yalom talked a lot about that, um, and the importance of taking that existential perspective with his, with his patients, and I think for all of us, it's really important to recognize that, um, we shouldn't be prisoners of our past, um, as much as we keep ruminating over and over again that we wish something was different, that's not gonna change the thing. No matter how many times we ruminate about it, it's not gonna change it. So, what I really wanna do is help people practically, um, and hopefully move forward with their lives.

    3. CW

      I think it's a great point that you ... I- if you're kind of railing against something that happened in your past, hoping that you can enact some kind of control over it, or- or- or alter what it was that occurred, you are fighting a losing battle. So, it's just not gonna happen.

    4. SK

      Yeah. That's- that's exactly right, and, um, I think for a lot of us, we get stuck on a certain frequency, um, and- and- and- and, uh, I think sometimes therapy is not helpful with that, you know? And that- that shouldn't be a controversial thing to say at all, you know? Um, if- if I had to choose, I would choose Irving Yalom (laughs) as my psychotherapist.

    5. CW

      Who?

    6. SK

      'Cause, uh, Irving Yalom is the psychotherapist who has that quote, "Sooner or later, you have to give up all hope for a better past." Yeah. Yeah.

    7. CW

      Talk to me about the intersection of psychotherapy and identifying with our pasts.

    8. SK

      Well, there are a lot of different orientations out there for psychotherapy. Um, there's an orientation called trauma-informed therapy that I criticize a little bit, um, because a lot of therapy is going and talking about your past, and I think that it's possible that if you're viewed only through the lens of your trauma, you s- you can- you can forget that you have other things that you can provide to the world. You forget that you c- you're allowed to- you're allowed to have a future, you know? You're allowed to have a great future. So, I mean, there's ... Not all, and not all trauma-informed therapy is bad. Of course, there's nuance here. But I think, you know, a big part of what I wanted to, the message I wanna give this book is that if we only view you through the lens of your victimhood, um, your pain, you know, your potential takes a back- a back seat to your pain.

    9. CW

      I have to say, I- I did twice weekly psychotherapy for about a year, and-

    10. SK

      What was it like?

    11. CW

      Fascinating. It- it- it told me more about myself than 1,500 to 2,000 sessions of meditation.

    12. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    13. CW

      Uh, you know, it's like inviting somebody into a house you've lived in your entire life, and then walking around and pointing out rooms that you didn't know existed, and those rooms-

    14. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    15. CW

      ... connecting to other rooms that you did know existed, and you're going, "Oh, holy fuck. Like, I wondered why the ki- they threw the back of the kitchen and, oh, that- that leads into, that leads into the living room, and that's how that thing's connected to that thing," and you, the veils really do fall from your eyes. But it creates a fucking ton of open loops.

    16. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CW

      It's basically here is a thing that happened, uh, and maybe this is why and this is how it impacts you in the present, but if you're sort of action-oriented, if you're a bit of a ruminator, if you're a little bit sensitive, dude, the fucking temptation to become a victim is so strong. And I saw this. I've s- I'm still seeing this in myself, and that's why I was so excited to speak to you about your book, uh, largely so that you can, uh, you know, detox me. I need to be exorcized of, uh, of the- the stuff that I'm fighting with.

    18. SK

      Do you know what orientation your s- the psychotherapy was that you underwent?

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SK

      Yeah.

    21. CW

      I could ask.

    22. SK

      Yeah, was it like psychological?

    23. CW

      It wasn't, it wasn't true. Uh, a little bit. Yeah. It was a little.

    24. SK

      Mm-hmm. Well, therapy obviously can be very helpful. I'm also a big fan of coaching, and so that's why I've gone into the coaching space in the past five years, because coaching is very future-oriented, and it's not about diagnosing you or trying to find what is the diagnosis. I think sometimes we get hung up too much on what is my diagnosis, you know, or what am I? Uh, and we get so hung up on that, that it's like we're grasping for something to reduce ourselves to, to hang our, to hang our identity on. And that can get in the way of us seeing our- our full potential, but, you know, seeing the depths of our being as well.

    25. CW

      What do you mean

  2. 4:45 – 10:26

    What is Victimhood Mentality?

    1. CW

      when you talk about a victimhood mindset? Let's set out terms.

    2. SK

      Oh. Absolutely. So, having a victim mindset means you tend to blame all your problems on external circumstances, whether it's that life dealt you a bad hand, or that a person or even an entire group of people have it in for you and are holding you back. You believe you don't need to take responsibility for your actions or reactions, uh, because of your past trauma, so it's perfectly okay to go around being an asshole to people because you can blame that on your own past trauma. You can't stop ruminating about your past victimization, and this probably is th- the most important part of the definition. You may fixate on how to enact revenge, and you rarely think about solutions or ways of moving forward with your life with hope and purpose. That tends to be a real big part of it.

    3. CW

      Everybody has bits of that, though.

    4. SK

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      So, to say, you know, the entirety, o- you- you explain all of your ... I think most people would go, "Well, that's not me. I don't explain all of my-"

    6. SK

      That's right.

    7. CW

      Even the most victim-y victim doesn't explain all of their things. Everyone has a degree of agency, right? That they-

    8. SK

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      "I," you know, "I have control at least over this one bedside table. I have control at least over the color of socks I put on my feet," or whatever it might be. Um, so dig into that for me a little bit, because it, I- I guess-

    10. SK

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      ... that most people are, uh, varying degrees of victim on different days based on how much sleep and their blood sugar and- and s- you know-

    12. SK

      Well, you nailed it. And this is, this is what was tricky about the framing of this book and trying to come up with, "How are we framing this book?" Because most of the self-help books that sell really well will tell you it's not you, right? It's, it's either... Uh, usually the two go-tos we blame are your ex-boyfriend and your mom. Those are the two big ones. And, uh, and most of the, the corner of the market in the self-help world either blame the mom, you know, the narcissistic mo- the borderline mother, or the ex-boyfriend. And so, in discussing this with, um... And then also the Jews. We like blaming the Jews for everything as well. (laughs) That's a, but that's another story. Um, so I, um, was working with my publisher. At first, I wanted to pitch a book on vulnerable narcissism, which is what is the topic I've been scientifically studying for the last 10 years, and they're like, "Well, people aren't gonna admit that they're vulnerable narcissists." Um, so I was like, "Okay, but this is something that we all... It's a dynamic mindset that we all can go in and out of." And I do think that you lose your agency and you lose your empowerment when you do outsource all your problems to others. When you blame all your problems on someone else, you are stripping yourself of your agency. And so I really wanted people to see that, and I also wanted to come from a clear place of caring and not diagnosis. And I go through great pains. Uh, you, you'll s- you see in the book, right? Like, every sentence, there's a caveat. You know, I'm not here, I'm not in the game of shaming anyone. Not in the ga- Usually when you talk about narcissism or you talk about a victim mindset, it's always like, "It's the liberals." (laughs) "It's the, you know, the libtards," or it, it's always about something else that, that, and people bond together to like, to have the out-group be the narcissist. And that's not the vibe of my book. I really wanted... I call it honest love, you know? You really validate someone's real felt experience of suffering, and you're honest with them that you believe in their higher potential. What I think is missing is that latter part in our society today.

    13. CW

      Where... Give me some examples of times where people might be acting like victims that they might not realize it. The person who, you know-

    14. SK

      Yeah.

    15. CW

      ... moderate, moderately agentic, upwardly mobile, "I do my thing," but where does a victim mentality sneak in in ways that we might not notice?

    16. SK

      Yeah. Uh, it's a terrific question. All throughout the course of our day, there is an opportunity to choose a victim mindset or to choose an empowering mindset. If we're waiting at Starbucks (laughs) and we're, there's a long-ass line, it's very easy for us to forget that there are other people in that line as well that are probably also not having a great day, you know? But it's very easy to fall prey to the notion, "Gosh, don't they know how bad my day is? I deserve to be at the front of this line." You know? (laughs) It's like, it's like this certain mentality that I think we all can kind of fall prey to when we forget that we're not the only ones that are suffering. Um, it, it happens everywhere. A big, a big, uh, cognitive distortion associated with a victim mindset is seeing malevolent intent in ambiguous stimuli. Very nerdy. I know you'll be able to parse that. But it's a very nerdy way of saying, you, let's say you're going down the street, you smile at someone, they don't smile back, and you take it personally. You get mad. You're like, "What the fu- Why did that motherfucker not smile back at me? I went out of my way to smile at them." And it's like, okay, chances are they probably didn't even see your smile. (laughs) They're not thinking about you. They don't care about you. Why should they care? (laughs) Why should they care about you? They don't kn- they don't know anything about you. Um, you know, um, most likely it was just am- it was just ambiguous. It, it wasn't that aggressive. So s- personalizing everything, um, seeing malevolent intent in really just neutral stimuli. Um, a really good example of that is, is com- it really, that really bothers comedians, you know, 'c- 'cause that's their job. But if they're like, they see aggression in the ambiguous facial expressions-

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SK

      ... when they're performing on stage and that makes them really angry. (laughs) Like, "Why are you not laughing (laughs) loudly at my jokes?" And, uh, and it doesn't even, uh... And they inte- they interpret that as, well, the person hates them and hates their jokes. So that's an extreme example, but if we go across, you know, our everyday life like that, you know, over-personalizing things, um, you know, if someone doesn't text you back right away, um, you fall apart and, uh, think, "Oh gosh, they hate me," you know, all that stuff is really holding you back.

    19. CW

      Where

  3. 10:26 – 14:30

    Where Does Victim Mentality Come From?

    1. CW

      does a victim mentality come from? Like, w- why?

    2. SK

      Ooh.

    3. CW

      Yeah.

    4. SK

      Well, I think everything honestly comes from a mix of nature and nurture, all of our personality dispositions. It's definitely a personality disp- disposition in the sense that some people we find in our studies over and over, people, some people score higher than others regularly on it, but I also think it's a dynamic mindset, and a lot of it does come from, uh, uh, I, I, I'm hesitant to use the word trauma, but a challenging experience in our life, um, uh, where we felt like we've been wronged. There's some really interesting research where they, they wronged people in the laboratory intentionally and they looked to see what that does in terms of whether or not they punish an innocent person in the, in the experiment.

    5. CW

      Mm.

    6. SK

      Don't you love social psychologists? (laughs) So they found that a very, a very statistically significant effect that those who were, um, wronged in the study, like they got the short end of the stick in one way-

    7. CW

      Mm.

    8. SK

      ... were more likely to give a puff of white noise to annoy a completely innocent. They suddenly became a sadistic psychopath.

    9. CW

      (laughs)

    10. SK

      (laughs) They suddenly-

    11. CW

      That's so good.

    12. SK

      So normal, everyday people became a sadistic psychopath. So I think it is, it is a, a mindset that we all can be tr- it can, uh, trigger all of us. I really can't stand this constant, "You're a psychopath, I'm not." You know, we're living in a society right now where everyone is so quick to call everyone else the narcissist and, and see themselves as the perfect angels, and I just don't think that's the accurate reality of the matter. (laughs)

    13. CW

      So is this retributive justice? Is that what you think these people are doing?

    14. SK

      No, I think we feel justified.... because the univer- to balance things out a little bit, to, um, to, uh, it's li- like a ... You know, it's interesting, a lot of people say they're really into justice, but what they're really into is self-justice.

    15. CW

      What's the difference?

    16. SK

      Just- not justice for all, but when there's injustice they see against their self, then suddenly they, hashtag (laughs) myself matters. (laughs) But-

    17. CW

      Oh, right. Okay.

    18. SK

      You see what I'm saying?

    19. CW

      So most, most people's, um-

    20. SK

      Self-justice is a threat against one's own ego.

    21. CW

      But also, their campaigns publicly are usually motivated personally, that-

    22. SK

      Yeah.

    23. CW

      ... I would guess.

    24. SK

      Yeah.

    25. CW

      M- so- something would tell me that most of the people ... Well, actually, I was gonna say this, but then, (sighs) thi- this would kind of run against Rob Henderson's idea of luxury beliefs, right? Like, bec- I, uh, although I suppose that that's actually a hollow campaign, that's someone not really caring about defunding the police, not really caring about black people, not really caring about this social cause.

    26. SK

      No, I think they really care. I think they really care. Um, but they care because it's a threat to something they see themselves a part of. And I think that, um, what really is-

    27. CW

      Oh, so they count a signal against, "I am not part of the bourgeoisie, I am not oppressing you."

    28. SK

      Yeah. Yeah. Um, and it's interesting that you link that to the luxury beliefs idea. Um, w- uh, I mean, the, the idea of signaling is, is everywhere once you start to l- Geoffrey Miller told me that once. He said, (laughs) he said at a conference that once you start to study signaling, you, you can't see anything in this world that, in any conversation, that isn't some form of signaling, signaling.

    29. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    30. SK

      So I, I always thought that was interesting. Um, but I think that, um, what is really lacking is a real care for universal principles, universalism. If you say you care about justice against, you know, racial discrimination, you should care when a white person is discriminated against, right?

  4. 14:30 – 17:46

    Why is Victimhood So Seductive?

    1. CW

      Why is victimhood so seductive? Like, what's the-

    2. SK

      It's weird. It's so seduc- it is our default state. Here's something interesting. Um, have you heard of learned helplessness, the theory of learned helplessness?

    3. CW

      I have. That was-

    4. SK

      Um-

    5. CW

      You put dogs in a cage. You shock them.

    6. SK

      Yeah. Yes.

    7. CW

      Gi- gi- give us the full, give us the full overview-

    8. SK

      Yeah.

    9. CW

      ... and explain how it's been debunked.

    10. SK

      You were, you were halfway there. Um, Martin Seligman, uh, in the '70s and '80s did a h- whole series of studies starting with dogs and rats, and then they eventually went to humans. And, uh, and I'll get to humans in a second. But they found that in dogs, um, you c- continually shock a dog, um, and then you open up the cage. So you keep them locked in a cage, and you ... This, this is delightful, right? This, this sounds like psychopathic behavior, doesn't it? But, um, on the part of the experimenter (laughs) but you continually shock a dog while they're locked inside a cage, and then you look to see at what point, um, when you open up the cage do they walk out. Because you, you let, you wa- you give them the option to be free at some point, and you look to see how many times do you shock them before they no longer walk out of that cage, even though they can be free. And so they found that dogs pretty quickly learn helplessness, you know? It doesn't take that many shocks for a dog to give up, uh, and, and not walk out when the, when the door's open. But what was interesting is when they got to humans, they found ... And they had to completely redo the theory, so they have a paper 50 years later, uh, where they say they got it completely wrong, the completely opposite. In humans, it seems like, um, learned helplessness is the default state in humans. It, uh, there's something very primal about that where we default to learned helplessness, and what we have to learn is hope. Hope is an intentional process that has to be learned. So you ask why is it so seductive? Well, there's something so primal about, um, the rewards we know we're gonna get if we signal victimhood. It is something that just through the ... We're such a social species-

    11. CW

      Mm.

    12. SK

      ... and we know that the person who's perceived as the victim throughout the course of human evolution got, uh, a lot of support. And, of course there are pe- there are real victims, and of course we need to say that. Uh, it, it should almost have to not be said, but we, we obviously should make clear that we are com- too compassionate humans, and of course there are real victims, but there also are, um ... So a victim mindset is independent of victimization. You can have real victimization and not harness a victim mindset about it. I have a, a friend, um, uh, who's really cool, and he has, like, no arms or legs, and he has two hooks, um, Tom Nash, and he, he's like, "I'm not a victim." He had a, he had meningococcal, uh, disease that, that caused him, uh, to lose, uh, to become quadriplegic, and he's like, "I'm not a victim. I actually, I love these hooks." He, like, rolls up in style with them, you know? Um, vice versa, you can not have been a victimized and have a victim mindset as well, and I talk about the dark triad in, in the book. I have a whole section on, uh, dark triad activism.

    13. CW

      Yeah.

  5. 17:46 – 20:28

    Our Feeling of Being Broken

    1. CW

      Just dig a little deeper for me. I thi- I, I've heard you talk about this upending of learned helplessness to learned hopefulness. (laughs) Just that l- uh, kind of turns the gravity of a lot of the way that people see their efforts, um, their perspective on how successful they are. You know, the fact that I don't default to, uh, thinking positive sum, to being, uh, agentic, I find it hard to overcome difficulty, um, a lot of the time I feel like things are outside of my control. I, sometimes I, I get this sense that my past is marionetting me in the future. Um-... just, like, uh, sink a little deeper because I, I really think that's-

    2. SK

      Mm.

    3. CW

      ... I think that's just such a fucking powerful, uh, remover of guilt for people. They go, "Oh, I'm not, I'm not broken. This, this isn't-"

    4. SK

      Oh, yeah.

    5. CW

      "... some personal curse."

    6. SK

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      "This is a in-built part of being a sensitive human."

    8. SK

      I'm really glad you said that. A lot of people, and this is really know- this is well-known in the trauma literature, um, a lot of people who have had a terrible thing happen to them, especially when they were young, they do implicitly, unconsciously believe they deserved it. Um, it's a defense mechanism. It's not a he- it's not a healthy one, but, um, a lot of people will say in trying to be like, "Why? Why did this happen? I must have deserved it," and they start to develop a sense, unconsciously often, that they're broken inside. And a big, you know, a big mission that I'm on and, and the whole second h- half of the book, that's the whole second half of the book, is find the parts of you that are not broken, find the light within yourself. And that is the biggest problem when you identify singly with your iden- with your victimhood. And, and, and what boggles my mind is there's a lot of people that are committed to that. They're committed to identifying with their victimhood completely, and it boggles my mind. Um, I guess for some people it is the only way they know, it's, it's, it's, it's encouraged in their community, in their certain in-group, you know, that that's like the way to be. Um, but there are entire communities where it's not. I mean, if you, if you're part of like the athletic sports community, I feel like there's a r- a whole culture around overcoming a victim. You don't lose a game (laughs) and the coach goes, "All right, team, let's pack it up. (laughs) Let's blame the other team for all our problems. Let's give up. There's not gonna be a next season." (laughs) You know, did LeBron (laughs) and the Lakers, maybe I shouldn't bring up the Lakers (laughs) last season, but I don't think he has a victim mindset over, over that situation that happened this year. Um, so I, I think there's certain cultures and communities that really encourage it and some that, that don't.

    9. CW

      Mm.

  6. 20:28 – 30:50

    Victimhood in Evolution

    1. CW

      So just to go a little further back that you mentioned people who are struggling because humans are so prosocial will tend to be, uh, helped up, they will be, uh, uh, given assistance, this is sort of ancestrally, I guess. Have you thought any more about the EP approach, the adaptive, uh, reason for sort of how victimhood works, that dynamic, what it means?

    2. SK

      Yeah. I hint- I hinted at that, uh, a little bit earlier, but, um, we are such a social species and social value is such a important core part, you know, reputation and social value is such an important part. And I think when you, if you go all the way back to, you know, like savanna, desert, uh, tr- v- we're a v- we're a very tribal species and to be a- and, and there's a constant, I think there's a constant battle, there's a constant victimhood Olympics going on going back to the start of humanity, the dawn of humanity we've been engaging in this victimhood Olympics, where you have two sides, um, that are warring against each other, and there's this notion that there, there can only be one victim and there can only be one oppressor. Um, it, it, it, it, it just, that is what gets you the greatest rewards because if you claim that spot of being seen as the victim of the conflict, you get resources and support. But if you, it's the second that you're seen as the tribal group that is the oppressor, you are... nothing you can do can be right, you know? Like, nothing. You are, you are pure evil no matter what happens. So, I think there's something so primal about that war for that c- coveted seat. And, and as you see, it's, uh, in my, in my last chapter I don't shy away from saying how it's playing out again in the, uh, Israeli Palestine conflict and how it plays out in almost every intractable conflict among humans. There's something so primal about it.

    3. CW

      Does that suggest then that modern culture isn't contributing to incentivizing victimhood, because a lot of, uh, culture war conversations talk about how victimhood is now being pedestalized, it's allowing people to get completely, uh, like contribution-free status and, and, and manipulate the system. But you're saying this is vestigial and has gone back as long as humans have had social groups. So which one's right?

    4. SK

      Well, do you think our modern culture incentivizes, does not incentivize victimhood?

    5. CW

      Oh, I would say it does. I would say it does.

    6. SK

      It does? I think it-

    7. CW

      But I'm trying, uh, I'm, I'm trying to work out is that a magnifying effect? Does it become a catalyst? What is it about modern culture that's caused that to happen?

    8. SK

      I think it's like asking why do humans still like fatty foods (laughs) . I mean, I think that we're seeing remnants of an evolutionarily primal need that needs to be overcome. I mean, it's something that I think we see, uh, generation after generation after generation 'cause it's so deeply seeded into our DNA to, to incentivize that. Um, it's very hard for people to, because it's so deeply en- ingrained, it takes cognitive work to be able to perceive that there could be two victims at the same time.

    9. CW

      Mm.

    10. SK

      It, it, it's very hard for people to wrap their head around that, and I think that's the only way forward.

    11. CW

      Is, is there an additional level of incentivization or, or contribution from the modern world? Is it, uh, d- social media, or is it, uh, a, a, a desperate-

    12. SK

      Yes.

    13. CW

      ... desperate need to try and upend inequality? W- w- w- why is it that there's a-

    14. SK

      Yes.

    15. CW

      ... little bit of a catalyst going on?

    16. SK

      Yes and yes. Yes and yes. Um, I just, uh, had a conversation with Jonathan Haidt on my podcast about this. Um, yes, uh, vic- um, social media especially TikTok really incentivizes a victimhood identity among youth, so there really is a lot of peer pressure. Um, for s- for, you know, it's no, um...... no surprise that teenagers go through an identity crisis. That's happened since the dawn of teenager hooded- hoodum. But now teenagers are hitching their identity as much as possible on some sort of marginalized identity because they know that's the w- that's the only way they can belong, that's the only way they can feel like they're included by...

    17. CW

      Why? Why would- why would somebody be more included on the margins than in the middle?

    18. SK

      Well, this is the million-dollar question. We- we- you get the Nobel Prize if you figured out exactly what was happening. But there seems to have been a cultural shift among youth where, um... And, uh, Jean Twenge has- has done a great analysis of this in her book, Generations. Prior generation, um, high self-esteem and grandiose narcissism was the- was the f- major form of entitlement, which is, "Uh, we're the best." You know, "We're the best generation," and- and they're, you know, and they're proud, and, um, happy about, uh, about, uh, being superior. But now the entitlement, um, you get special privileges for saying you've suffered. So it- it has become a vulnerable form of entitlement that is being incentivized more than prior generations. Um, the... It's an interesting question. I- I think that social media must play some role in that. There's some sort of feedback mechanism where that seems to be what gets more attention and gets more likes. I mean, when we deal with the attention economy, like we're doing with social media-

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SK

      ... you start to see certain things start to get magnified, um, and certain things start to compound, um, that maybe we didn't even t- uh, that weren't as prominent in the past. But you just don't get as many, um, likes if you're not being polarizing and if you're not, um, talking about some sort of victimhood.

    21. CW

      I remember, I think it's in The Happiness Hypothesis, Jonathan Haidt says, uh, uh, "Sympathy is investment advice."

    22. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    23. CW

      And ancestrally what he's talking about is the fact that if you see somebody who's really down on their luck and kind of desperate and in need of support, that person will... You basically get a multiplier for every unit of effort that you give them compared to somebody who doesn't really need the effort. Now, the person that doesn't really need the effort, you give them some berries, they might be thankful for some berries. But someone who's starving, if you give them some berries, they really, really owe you. Now, there's lots of reasons why we have sympathy. We're a pro-social species, we don't wanna see other people suffer, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, deep down, there is gonna be a bit that says, "Hey, you support this person, they're really gonna owe you. This is gonna be great for you long term." Uh, and I wonder whether-

    24. SK

      Hmm.

    25. CW

      ... your opportunity to crowdsource that level of sympathy across the internet is a big motivating factor for people to do that because you have an unlimited sized tribe of people who can think, "Oh, God, I really should help this person. I don't really know why, but they really seem to be struggling," and, "Wow, in an internet filled with people that are being performative and not showing their true selves, look at this person. That's real vulnerability. That's authentic. That's relatable. I see me in them." And as soon as you create this dynamic where people are incentivized to help-

    26. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    27. CW

      ... and you stand out by having, uh, some degree of what appears to be authenticity, authenticity very easily... I think a good way to t- talk about authenticity would be, uh, or to signal it, is to say a thing that typically would be costly to say otherwise. Um-

    28. SK

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      ... uh, you know, uh, Sam Harris, I think, is- uh, is- is authentic. M- uh, we don't need to agree with him or disagree with him, but he pays a high price for a lot of the opinions that he holds-

    30. SK

      Mm-hmm.

  7. 30:50 – 37:35

    Are Genes Destiny?

    1. CW

      Okay. Are genes our destiny? Surely they're the most immutable parts of us, so how can people not identify with their genes?

    2. SK

      Did, did I, did I address your prior point though? 'Cause I thought it was really interesting.

    3. CW

      Absolutely. Absolutely.

    4. SK

      I thought it was really, really interesting. Um, yeah, so, uh, genes. Okay, so gene is like a dirty word, right, in, um, in a lot of circles. I think people think of genes as something that is immutable, that, uh, we can't change, but I would much rather live in a world where nature and nurture contributed than, than either living in a genetic deterministic world or an environmentally deterministic world. So I'm actually happy with the way that, uh, evolution has given us genes that are highly sensitive to the environment but are not completely determined by the environment. Um, so I like that. So do you wanna, do you wanna, do you wanna cover attachment theory? Is that...

    5. CW

      Whatever you think is best, dude.

    6. SK

      Whatever? Let's, let's, let's put-

    7. CW

      Yeah, whatever you think is most salient from the genes side.

    8. SK

      Let's, let's dive into attachment theory, because there is, there are so many misconceptions about what attachment theory is, and there are so many ideas that it's all the fault... I think a lot of people have a victim mindset about attachment theory. They say, "Well, I have an insecure attachment because of the way I was raised." But as I talk about in the book, the behavioral genetics research shows that there is a pretty substantial heritability of your attachment style, and I think that it relates to your personality. Like if you are, score very high in neuroticism, which is going to be influenced by your genes and your environment, but genes really matter in, in the tr- in, in influencing, uh, the development of your neurotic traits. You're gonna be more anxious in your relationships. You're going to be more, uh, self-doubting, and it's gonna show up in your relationships, but it's also gonna show up everywhere in y- everywhere else in your life. So I think attachment theorists sometimes look a little too narrowly, um, at the attachment relationship domain, and I think they could use to zoom out a little bit and take a bit of a personality, neuroscience/genetics perspective a little bit more.

    9. CW

      Hmm. Well, I mean, look, genes are everything, right? They are the, your height, they're your weight, they're your ability to gain muscle. Uh, I'm sure you've looked at, uh, in some parts, the sort of incel black pill ideology.

    10. SK

      Oh, yeah.

    11. CW

      A lot of that is, you know, genetic dead end. That that's actually what they refer to themselves as. So it's difficult for a lot of people t- y- y- facial symmetry. Are you telling me I'm gonna have to go... People go and get leg lengthening surgery.

    12. SK

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      You know, all of the different ways, the compensatory mechanism. I've gone bald early in life. You know, whatever your... Uh, a- and then you compensate. You fly to Turkey and get new teeth or get new hairline or whatever.

    14. SK

      Sure.

    15. CW

      Um, genes in many ways are our destiny, and it's hard not to identify with them because they are immutable in many ways.

    16. SK

      Yes, but if, if I gave only that message, then there'd be no point in write- writing the book Rise Above. (laughs)

    17. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SK

      Um, because we also have an agency, as you said, to compensate, to do what we need to not... You know, what, what's it gonna do to help you to say, "Oh, well, I have the genes for shortness. I'm just gonna never talk to women ever again." You know? What, what's, what, what is, what is the use of that? What is the benefit of that? So no matter what circumstance you're in and no matter what hand God has dealt you, um, I, I think it's, it's, it's very much in our control to, to do what we can with what we have. So I think both are true and we can hold both in our mind at the same time. But you're right. I mean, it drives me crazy when people ignore the role of genes, dri- and I have a whole section of my book on that in terms of, uh, not just attachment theory, but, um, but also, um, well, it's a very controversial thing to say that trauma is heritable. That, that's probably one of the most cont- If you wanna not be a, uh, a lot of people to like you at a cocktail party, (laughs) tell them that heritability, that trauma has a high heritability.

    19. CW

      Have a look, uh, d- dig into the research around that for me.

    20. SK

      Okay. How do we, how do we cover this sensitively? Well, um, I think that in a lot of ways, trauma is the narrative that we tell ourselves about an, an experience that happened to us. Um, there's a notion that trauma is stored in the body, I don't think is scientifically accurate. You know, The Body Keeps the Score is like the number one, it's been on the New York Times bestseller list. It's created a whole cult following. It has so much popularity. But I don't, and I don't believe that's how the brain works. So it, it, our trauma story is stored in our brain. It's not stored in our body. What we have in our body for sure is survival stress. We have in our body, um, lots of, um, uh... We, we can obviously feel, um, the stress involved with assaults, with, with various things that happen to us. But the, but the word trauma, that really is the narrative that we've cognitively and consciously put on a series of things and though... And, and it can change. You see, you can see it change too. You can see situations where a person never thought they had trauma, and then they go to therapy, and then they get convinced by their therapist that, that what happened was traumas and then they change their whole narratives. You can see how f- how fluid our notion of traumatic experiences are. So when I say that trauma has a high heritability, well, it is interesting because there is research showing that people who have a genetic proclivity towards the personality, personality trait neuroticism do tend to see the world differently than people who are low in neuroticism. They tend to see threat everywhere, um, whereas people who score low in neuroticism don't tend to see the threat everywhere. You could have twins, um, you could have, well, you could have siblings who are not twins. You could have siblings who don't share a lot of genes, um, non- non-identical twins.And they both could have experienced the same exact thing in their childhood from their parenting style, and one is like, "I had a traumatizing childhood," and, and then you, you see this case. And then the other child is like, "What are you talking about? We had such a great childhood." (laughs) You know, and it's like, well, what's the truth? In a lot of ways the truth is in the e- eye of the beholder. Um, and you also see that with attachment styles. So I talk about it in the book, but the genes for neuroticism color the extent ... T- what you focus on in your relationship. Um, and so you're ... It, it, it ch- it, it focuses your attention on various aspects of the relationship and it makes you ignore maybe some of the better, lovely aspects of a relationship that you just can't see because you're so focused on, "Will they leave me, will they leave me, will they leave me?" Does that make sense? And I hope that was somewhat sensitive.

    21. CW

      No. Yeah, it does. It does. Um,

  8. 37:35 – 44:46

    The Dynamics of Epigenetics

    1. CW

      I mean, I remember you talk a bit about epigenetics and (sighs) I can't remember who it was I was speaking to, um, might've been, uh, Roy Baumeister, and he was saying that if a mother goes into poverty t- uh, during pregnancy, so if a, a, a mother who's pregnant loses her job, which is a pretty reliable way to go into poverty, uh, you get epigenetic changes inside of the, uh, baby that-

    2. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    3. CW

      ... is, is, is being carried inside of her. So, you know, ancestral trauma, uh, which is, I think, people talking about, "I'm one-sixteenth Native American, or one, one, like, 120th Native American, and I can feel the sort of pain of the ancestral land," I think that starts to get us outside of the realm of science and into the realm of woo a little bit. Uh, but given the fact that if you have a daughter as a, a baby that's inside of you, uh, that baby has every egg that she's ever going to carry for her entire life. So at one point you were inside of your mother, who was inside of your grandmother. Like, that's the kind of position that you hold. I don't know how epigenetics works down to the level of egg cells inside of a developing baby, but I could see that you could quite easily create two generations of epigenetic change by having a really, really stressful event occur to the mother while she's pregnant.

    4. SK

      Yes. Yes. And, um, people do make too much of intergenerational trauma effects, uh, because the data does show that beyond two generations, um, there's no, uh, indication in the blood of the, of, of this. So I think that there is some partial truth to this, but I think the trauma researchers make too much of it. They go way beyond what the evidence actually shows. I mean, I could literally show you papers that w- I could ... (laughs) I won't, I won't even minimize my use of the word literally, I wanna work on that. (laughs)

    5. CW

      (laughs)

    6. SK

      Yeah, I overuse the word literal sometimes. But I would love to show you some papers, um, that, that really cast doubt on the pervasive effects of intergenerational trauma, uh, beyond two generations. So in terms of the Holocaust, for instance, or in terms of people's slavery, Black sl- you know, people say, "Intergenerational trauma, you know, from, you know, my great-great-great-great-grandmother is, is the reason why I, I am the re- way I am today," and the evidence is actually slim on that idea.

    7. CW

      Mm. J- uh, o- one final element here to s- try and curveball you, epigenetic change, uh, the, uh, increased activation or, uh, o- of particular genes, in, uh, expression, uh, of genes, uh, within someone, surely let's say that you, uh, start off child of a slightly neurotic parent, uh, you've probably got the genes for a bit of neuroticism, and then during childhood you, or e- even during adulthood, you go through a really, really protracted period of chronic stress-

    8. SK

      Mm.

    9. CW

      ... and this epigenetic change that was primed, you had all of the materials, you had all of the ingredients for this very neurotic soup inside of you, uh, and they get turned on. How do people not identify with the fact that maybe they can even remember a time before this when they weren't this way and now this epigenetic change has occurred? And it's very ... As far as I am aware, easy to increase the expression of genes, but it's very hard to decrease the expression of genes once they've begun to be expressed.

    10. SK

      Yeah. Uh, great point, and if you wanna discuss epigenetics within the development of an individual's lifespan, there is a lot of evidence for that, for sure. Um, and that's a different topic than the in- the intergenerational trauma issue.

    11. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SK

      Those are separate issues.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SK

      Within, within an individual's lifespan, um, there seems to be genes that influence general sensitivity versus, um, orchid dandelion, you know, hypothesis. So there are genes that influence you to be the kind of person who's sensitive to everything, uh, for better and worse, and then there are some people who seem to have a combination of genes that cause them to not be so affected by anything. (laughs) And for those who have the genes that make them, uh, really sensitive to everything, the environment, the epigenetics really, really matters for those folks, because, uh, there are some really cool studies with, like, summer camps, um, that, uh, takes these kids who have, uh, uh, who are prone to a general sensitivity and may show neurotic-like traits, and cause them to, um, to really face their fears and, um, in a very supportive, encouraging environment. Um, Rachel Gracio-Planá and Colin DeYoung did a great study about this, by the way. Um, and really, uh, support them and, and activate the curiosity a- uh, element of this, because sensitivity, it can go either way. It can cause you to avoid the world, but it can also ... Sensitivity doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. It c- um, or a way of holding you back in life. If you're in a supportive environment where you learn early enough that you, uh, can take that feeling of fear and anxiety-... and, and, and still act, it actually gives you a sense of great resiliency, and it gives you a great, uh, sense of curiosity. So they found that they had the... Those kids had the highest... By the end of the summer camp, they had higher curiosity scores and openness to experience than anyone else in the camp.

    15. CW

      But unfortunately, most people listening to this podcast-

    16. SK

      Yeah.

    17. CW

      ... they're not going to be children.

    18. SK

      Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trying to be hopeful. (laughs) I'm trying, I'm trying not- (laughs)

    19. CW

      Realistic. We're being realistic and hopeful.

    20. SK

      Yeah, yeah, and bo- both. Both. Yeah. Um, it is true. The, the other way around is true as well, and it's, it's a real, it's a real shame. I mean, it, it matters a lot what kind of partners you choose. Do you have sensitive... Do you have partners who are sensitive to your triggers? Do you have partners who are, um, going to gaslight you, abuse you, you know? Um, especially, you know, if you have a genome that makes you super sensitive to that sort of thing. It is interesting though, there are some people with these genes that, that don't... That make them just rock solid, like stoic, regardless of, like, whatever's thrown at them. Um, that, that's interesting. You know, there's like a genetic proclivity towards that as well, you know. I don't know. Maybe David Goggins (laughs) has those genes, or maybe he developed it. Maybe he was... Maybe he was the other way, and he developed it. Who knows? But, um, but it is interesting. Um, so yes, so of course we should have compassion as well for all the different ways epigenetics happen, but I don't think it means that there's no hope. I mean, like you said, it makes it harder, especially, um, in childhood. I, I bring up childhood because it's... In adulthood, you know, if these things happen, you're, you're really influenced a lot by these sensitive periods in your life when your brain is still developing, um, when your prefrontal cortex is developing, and you're coming up with cognitive strategies to overcome things and learn things. But I do think you can learn these strategies at any point in your life, to a certain extent.

    21. CW

      Right. Okay. What's

  9. 44:46 – 50:34

    Researching Highly Sensitive People

    1. CW

      the research on highly sensitive people? I literally didn't even know that this was a thing. I thought it was just-

    2. SK

      Really?

    3. CW

      I, I thought it would just be like a colloquial term. "Oh, yeah, he's very sensitive." But highly sensitive people is a, a, a... I, I mean, tell me what it is. Explain it.

    4. SK

      Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. And we should also talk about the link between masculinity and being an HSP, because I think a lot of men score high in this trait and feel ashamed of it-

    5. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SK

      ... because they feel like societal expectations say that they're a sissy boy or something, just 'cause they score high on these traits. But being a highly sensitive person is the combination of two traits, neuroticism, that we talked a little bit about, which is being fearful, having a lot of anxiety, but also people who are highly sensitive also score very high in openness to experience, um, appreciation of beauty and excellence. And what you often find is that they're so open to so many... so much input in the world that they get overwhelmed quickly and then they need to retreat. So there's a constant push and pull between a, a full engagement, a full, um, engagement in the world and all of its splendor, in all of its splendor, and, and an avoidance because one becomes overwhelmed with all the input that's coming in. That's really all it means, you know. Um, uh, some people make more of it than it is. Um, I saw a post, an interview with Kanye West where he said, "He's very misunderstood. He's really just a highly sensitive introvert." Um, and then, um, I, I, I made the argument, you... It's actually possible to be a highly sensitive asshole. (laughs) There's no contradiction in that, in, in, in that. (laughs)

    7. CW

      Right. (laughs) Going to the highly sensitive people thing, because I get the sense that this sort of show is going to be very heavily trafficked by people who lie somewhere on that spectrum, you know.

    8. SK

      Mm-hmm.

    9. CW

      They're introspective. They reflect. They do self-work. They consider whether or not this is the best use of their time. They want to be better. They're probably plagued with quite a lot of self-doubt. Maybe they're dealing with a little bit of s- low self-esteem. They worry about what other people think of them. Uh, they care deeply about other people's opinions, probably too much.

    10. SK

      Yeah.

    11. CW

      All of that stuff doesn't sound very good. What are the advantages? Like, how can people transform high sensitivity into a strength?

    12. SK

      Yeah. W- I'm really glad you asked that question, because I think a lot of people can view these things as negatives. Um, but contextually speaking, uh, it is very conducive to creativity to be able to see the nuances in things, to be able to see... To have such an open mind where you're ab- you're able to make connections between things that most people aren't seeing. Um, a big part of my PhD dissertation was investigating the trait, uh, reduced late inhibition and its correlation with creative thinking. People who have a reduced late in- inhibition... I actually did this research with Jordan Peterson, believe it or not, back before he was famous. We published papers on this. But a reduced late inhibition means that your filter is, is down where you don't see things as ir- as necessarily irrelevant to the current goal that you have. So there are people who, when they have a goal, they're so narrow minded and single focused about it, that they ignore everything else around them that doesn't seem obviously relevant to their goal.

    13. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    14. SK

      But we found that cr- really creative people, especially in the arts, and, uh, a- actually, the paper, uh, uh, I published, Jordan Wilks, said the difference between scientific creativity and artistic creativity. We found that people particularly in the arts, um, have, um, this reduced late inhibition, where they actually at an, uh, unconscious level, let in a lot more information, um, than, that, that, uh... They're... For some reason, their, their, their, their, uh, salience brain network is not tagging this incoming input as irrelevant. So they, they're, they're able to entertain it, and they also have the working memory capacity to entertain it. Shelley Carson also did some really great research showing that having a reduced late inhibition plus an enhanced working memory capacity is kind of like the ideal state of being for creativity. You can handle this influx of information and, and, and sort out what's relevant and what isn't at the conscious level-

    15. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SK

      ... whereas most people filter out at the subconscious level. Is that makes sense?

    17. CW

      Well, I imagine, I imagine if you get this wrong, you get perilously close to attention deficit disorder as well.

    18. SK

      And schizophrenia.Yeah, i- i- in the most extreme versions, this is what you see in mental illness, um, you know, we put p- people in mental institutions for having too extreme version of this.

    19. CW

      Mm.

    20. SK

      But for people who can have a moderate version of it, it seems to be the most conducive towards creative thinking.

    21. CW

      Right. What other advantages?

    22. SK

      I also think that social sensitivity. I think being able to be in a conversation and, and feel what another person is feeling or take in a lot of information, even non-verbal cues, not be blind to them, um, can be very valuable. Uh, it can help make you a more, uh, caring human in a lot of ways. Um, so we have the creativity, we have the sort of social aspects. Um, I think also just appreciating life. Being able to, um, see beauty where other people don't see beauty could be a big part of it as well. You do, you do, you do tend to find ... Uh, they actually have separated ... I- I- I talk about this study, uh, in some of my articles, um, but they, they separate the appreciation of beauty and excellence part from the, uh, anxiety part, and they find that if you separate that part, um, of the high sensitivity, it's actually correlated with much higher levels of happiness and wellbeing, whereas the anxiety part is correlated with lower levels of anxiety and wellbeing. So there are good things we can take from being a highly sensitive person, and we can try to manage the other parts.

    23. CW

      Great lead-in there to

  10. 50:34 – 59:19

    How to Recognise if You Are Highly Sensitive

    1. CW

      if ... Uh, actually, first off, how can you tell if you're one of these people? How can people ... I, I, we don't wanna get self-

    2. SK

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... fucking diagnosing, but, uh-

    4. SK

      (laughs)

    5. CW

      You know what I mean. I don't, I don't wanna go down that-

    6. SK

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... rabbit hole. But how can people tell if they're highly sensitive, and then on top of that, if this is you, if this sounds like you, what are the challenges that people should be aware of? What are the areas that if you can just get control of this and this and this, your quality of life is likely, you're really able to unlock the advantages of being more highly sensitive?

    8. SK

      Do you think you m- uh, do you think you might be a highly sensitive person?

    9. CW

      (laughs) I think I am. Uh, yeah. Yeah. I, based on what I've read, given the fact that I've known about this concept for about two days, uh, I- I would identify with a lot of those things. Um, I had a huge genetic test done at the s- back end of last year, and all of the alleles that came back that were interesting from a behavioral perspective would predispose me to, to this stuff. Very dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, um, sometimes struggles with, uh, serotonin, very goal-driven, uh, may struggle to come back to emotional baseline after a perturbment, clears adrenaline slowly. Uh, like, ju- it's ... Dude, it's fucking wild. Like, when you look at-

    10. SK

      Yeah. I, I think this is really important for people like you to admit that. Um, I was in a movie recently called Sensitive Men Rising, uh, starring, um, me (laughs) and Alanis Morrissette, and La- Luke Goss. Do you know who Luke Goss is, the actor?

    11. CW

      No.

    12. SK

      Google him. Luke G-O-S-S. He reminds me of you a little bit. Um-

    13. CW

      Okay.

    14. SK

      He, he's, um, you know, he's, he's very, uh, buff. (laughs) Very good-looking. (laughs) Um-

    15. CW

      He's bald.

    16. SK

      Yeah, well, testosterone's correlated with baldness.

    17. CW

      Okay.

    18. SK

      But-

    19. CW

      All right.

    20. SK

      So ... But, but look, you know, he's, he's a, he's a, he's a great actor, but he really talks in this movie about how he thinks he's a highly sensitive person-

    21. CW

      Mm.

    22. SK

      ... and how he feels like there should be, there shouldn't be this stigma about manly-looking men saying that they're highly sensitive people.

    23. CW

      Hm.

    24. SK

      And I really agree with that. I agree with that completely, and I think, you know, we need more people like you and Luke and, and me. (laughs) I've been hitting the gym-

    25. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    26. SK

      ... uh, making ... No. Uh, I- I'm being cheeky. But we really, we really need to, to give more men the memo that it's not, it's not a negative. It doesn't make you a sissy, you know?

    27. CW

      Well, dude, look at what is it that drives people to do the things that they do to their career or to their body or to their mind or to their s- net worth or to their ability to communicate or these things. Like, a lot of it is a, a need for control, safety-

    28. SK

      Yeah.

    29. CW

      ... validation, a desire for respect, uh, a sense of something that was missing when you were a child. And yeah, certainly for me, I was pretty lonely, pretty bullied in school, uh, pretty unpopular, and started-

    30. SK

      Really, you were bullied?

  11. 59:19 – 1:04:56

    Advice for Highly Sensitive People

    1. CW

      It's definitely deep. It's definitely a high resolution way to view the world. Um, but it can cause you to move slowly because you don't make rash... I don't make very rash decisions. I sort of-

    2. SK

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... think through things very carefully. I tend to move very conservatively. Uh-

    4. SK

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... I have m- sort of massive loss aversion, fucking huge loss aversion, huge fear of regret. Um, and, you know, this is why the question that kind of got us onto this was, if you're someone who resonates with this highly sensitive person archetype, what are the things that you need to get under control to unlock well-being in your life as much as possible?

    6. SK

      Well, in my book, the biggest thing I say is don't be a victim of your HSP. Don't create a victim mindset around being a highly sensitive person. Um, you see a lot of people who are HSPs, they literally see it as the core of their victim identity. So they expect people to tiptoe around them.

    7. CW

      Oh, I feel things so very deeply. Please be careful with me, blah, blah, blah.

    8. SK

      (laughs) And you, you see it. I mean, you see it. There's always one person there (laughs) who's like, "I'm triggered, triggered!" And it's like, okay, um, really take responsibility for your HSP-ness and don't expect everyone to cater to that one aspect of your being, because I find that very disempowering.

    9. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    10. SK

      You empower your HSP-ness when you lead with it in a way-

    11. CW

      (laughs) I can't, Scott.

    12. SK

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      I can't let you continue to say the, the sentence HSP-ness.

    14. SK

      (laughs) I just literally said HSP-ness. (laughs)

    15. CW

      (laughs) Yep, highly sensitive person-ness. Yep.

    16. SK

      Is, is this an outtake? You know, if it's one of these movie bit-

    17. CW

      No, no, no, this is a, this is a keep in take.

    18. SK

      Yeah. Um, being a highly sensitive person, you know, it's like anything else, any other aspect of your identity. Are you gonna make it the core of your victim identity or are you going to harness it in the service of growth?... and becoming a better person. And I think you can ask that about any aspect of your personality.

    19. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    20. SK

      W- w- no matter what it is, your extroversion, your introversion, your conscientiousness. You know, all these things can have trade-offs. People who are too conscientiousness, too conscientious, like, too gritty, that, there's a dark side to grit, right? You know, if, like, if you're a workaholic, if you're, you know... Uh, that could be part of your victim identity, is that you're too, too, you work too hard, you know. Look, you could make anything, you know, the core-

    21. CW

      Hmm.

    22. SK

      ... of your victim identity. And, and I don't want people to make anything the core of their victim identity. I want them to not see themselves as that's, that's the thing that's holding them back from the rest of their personality structure, but as the thing that enables the rest of their personality structure.

    23. CW

      Okay. How do people become victims of their emotions?

    24. SK

      Yeah. Yeah. So when a lot of people think about becoming a victim, in general, they think about all the ways they're a victim to the external world, and the twist in my book is that part, uh, one are five ways that we're actually a victim to ourselves. It has nothing to do with the outside world. We can become a victim to our emotions when we take our emotions as facts. We don't just treat them as signposts, but we, we take them seriously, so seriously that we act immediately on whatever we're feeling, um, and we are quick to label, to find a label for whatever it is that we're feeling, as opposed to just checking on, in on the experience itself. So that's a big way that we become victim to our emotions.

    25. CW

      Hmm. And what are the emotions that people typically fall victim to?

    26. SK

      Anxiety is a big one. Um, um, fear. Fear is a huge one. Fear holds us back from so many things in our life, and that's why in that chapter I talk about the ACT approach, which I'm a big fan of. Um, Stephen... Have you had Stephen Hayes on your podcast ever?

    27. CW

      Uh, no.

    28. SK

      He's the-

    29. CW

      Who's that?

    30. SK

      He's the founder of the ACT approach to psychotherapy, which, uh, is a really brilliant form of psychotherapy, um, that allows you to act in line with your values no matter how you're feeling about, about the situation, um, in the moment. Maybe you don't feel like it. Maybe you wake up, you're like, "I wanna go to the j- I wanna lose weight, but I don't feel like going to the gym today." And you really are able to regulate your emotions in a way where you still end up in the gym, you know, really thinking more about what you wanna get out in the long term as opposed to what may be holding you back in the short term. So I think the ACT approach is a, is a really, uh, a really great way forward.

  12. 1:04:56 – 1:09:29

    The Role of Internally-Generated Safety

    1. CW

      of the things we've talked about a little bit, and I imagine that this is... This plays a big role when it comes to the emotions side of victimhoodness, the role of internally generated safety, self-regulation. Um, you know, if we're not saying... If you're say- well, hey, you can be tyrannized by your own internal state, as well as you feel like you're being traumatized by your own external state. What's the role of safety, internally generated, self-regulation, stuff like that?

    2. SK

      Well, first of all, I wanted to say, you asked me, "Where can people find out if they're an HSP?" And I just want to say hsperson.com. Uh, Lane Aaron has a scale that you can take some self-tests. So I wanted to say that.

    3. CW

      Cool.

    4. SK

      Um, this question you ask, uh, I was wondering if you could ask it one more time so I can really fully process it. Um, safety, in- feeling a sense of internal sa- safety? Is that it?

    5. CW

      Yeah. What's the role of internally generated safety? I just get, I get the sense-

    6. SK

      Yeah.

    7. CW

      ... that when it comes to emotions, what people are struggling with is feeling out of control, feeling unsafe. I don't r- I just, uh, you know, like, this feels like it's beyond me, and I don't have, uh, I- I don't have the capacity to deal with whatever these emotions are, which to me-

    8. SK

      Yep.

    9. CW

      ... suggests you need self-regulation.

    10. SK

      Yeah. Well, I think that in general, we have much deeper reservoirs of resiliency than we realize, and we don't give ourselves the chance to test our resiliency muscles because we're too quick to constantly avoid things, eh, uh, that we fear. So first of all, I, I do think that's very important. I also think that a lot of young people didn't get the memo that you don't have to feel happy all the time. Um, a lot of young people, the second they f- they're, they're, they, they feel, feel unsafe, you know, they avoid at all costs, you know, what, what, what could happen. Um, and of course, we, we wanna be, we wanna be safe, but don't always avoid the feeling of feeling unsafe. Um, a lot of people feel unsafe around ideas, around words, you know. Uh, that's become a thing in the younger generation as, as, as Jonathan Haidt and Greg Lukianoff talk a lot a- lot about in Coddling of the American Mind. Um, a lot of people feel unsafe with ideas with, with people that don't agree with them. They feel unsafe, and I don't think that's the way forward in life. You know, that's not the way you challenge yourself. That's not the way you groward and grow, um, and, and, and, and encounter other perspectives. Also, experiences that get, get you out of your comfort zone are sometimes the most profound, wonderful experiences in humanity. Imagine if every time you start a new relationship, you, you start to, you know, uh...... you have one fight, you know, with a person, like, and then you just give up, you know? Um, you're, you're gonna have a long stream of unfulfilled relationships. (laughs)

    11. CW

      Mm. Mm-hmm. How, uh, how can people cultivate better psychological flexibility in-

    12. SK

      Yeah.

    13. CW

      ... moments of, moments of deep emotional pain, discomfort, stuff like that?

    14. SK

      That is the term. That is the, the psychological term that's used in the ACT approach.

    15. CW

      I know. That's because I'm reading the ACT journal, Scott.

    16. SK

      Oh, no.

    17. CW

      That's because I'm-

    18. SK

      You shouldn't. That's so cool. Well, I'm impressed. I thought it was 'cause you read chapter four of my book. (laughs) It was all about the-

    19. CW

      Because of both. It's been-

    20. SK

      Both, yeah.

    21. CW

      ... reinforced by you.

    22. SK

      Um, that's so cool. Um, I'm impressed. Um, yeah, I mean, there is no protocol for this, you know? There's no, like, you have to, first of all, check in with your own experience and try your best to not label it. Try your best to, um, create a distance from what you're feeling and your higher values and where you wanna move to. Um, you know, let's say, you know there's... You're starving, um, and you know that there's something really sweet and fatty waiting for you in the fridge, all you have to do is open up the fridge and get it, and move toward it. What you do is you check in with, well, what actually... You don't check in with, "What are my, um, feelings right now?" You check in with, "Well, what are my higher values?" That's what you check in with, your higher values. "I want to lose weight. I want to not be the kind of person that immediately opens up that fridge every time I'm hungry and picks out the m- most unhealthiest thing I have in the fridge." Check in with all of that first, um, and let the emotions and the desires and those quick feelings subside.

    23. CW

      Mm-hmm.

    24. SK

      Um, but be with them. Don't label them.

  13. 1:09:29 – 1:12:17

    Links Between Self-Esteem & Victimhood

    1. CW

      Mm-hmm. I imagine there's a, a correlation or a relationship between self-esteem and victim-

    2. SK

      Yeah.

    3. CW

      ... hood as well.

    4. SK

      Big one. A big one with low self-esteem. Well, actually, there's no such thing as low self-esteem. This is interesting. On psychological surveys, you, you, you very rarely will ever meet a human that says they have zero self-esteem when you, when you ask them to rate on a scale of one to seven how much self-esteem do they have. It's usually a bimodal distribution, so you usually see, um, a lot of six and sevens. The people with a high self-esteem are clear, but then, the second type of person is usually it's, uh, in the middle somewhere, so that it's unclear. So, it's an uncertain self-esteem. Usually, a l- what we call low self-esteem is really an uncertain self-esteem. The person is constantly looking outward for... They don't know, they don't have a good inner compass of what they think they should be. Um, and, and also from an evolutionary point of view, it's important to recognize there are different domains of self-esteem that evolved that are very separate from each other. You can have very high self-esteem for your work, you know, f- and have very low self-esteem for your mate value. Um-

    5. CW

      Hmm.

    6. SK

      They're, they can be very different things. So, I think there's do- domain-specifically evolved self-esteem as well, and there's some really great evolutionary psychology papers around that that I cite in my book.

    7. CW

      Right. Uh, so, the issue, I imagine, with low self-esteem is that your sort of robustness to being able to deal with insults, both internally and externally generated, you're going to take them more personally. Like, i- i- you know, your, your base is less, uh, uh, resilient in that way.

    8. SK

      Yeah, absolutely. Um, vulnerable narcissism, which I, I talked about earlier, is very strongly correlated with this uncertain sense, sense of self. The more that you can have an internal sense of who you are and what you want and be clear on your values, the less your self-esteem is gonna make a difference at all, you know? Um, you don't wanna be obsessed with your self-esteem. You don't wanna be constantly in pursuit of high self-esteem. You don't want that to be your primary goal either. Um, so, that's why it's really important to get right with your own inner compass of what you want out of this life and, and, and what your actual real felt interests are, and listen to them. I think a lot in life we get values from our society, we get values from others, um, and we wanna belong. So, we care so much about belonging to a certain group that we adopt all of their values, even if it doesn't really suit us individually.

    9. CW

      Hmm. How do you come to think

  14. 1:12:17 – 1:14:05

    Accepting Your Past Without Being Ruled By It

    1. CW

      about acknowledging, uh, past hurts and hardships while not identifying with it? It seems like on one end of the spectrum, you've got denial. And on the other end of the spectrum, you've got identification. Like, "This didn't happen to me, I'm gonna completely ignore it. And this is the most important thing in my entire life and totally, uh, chooses my direction moving forward." Um, like, how, how do you come to think about this, this tension?

    2. SK

      Like, what's the optimal point?

    3. CW

      Well, yeah. Like, how do you acknowledge the fact that you've been through tough stuff while not, uh, uh, uh, while not identifying with it, while not making it your entire sense-

    4. SK

      Well-

    5. CW

      ... of self?

    6. SK

      ... uh, I think that's why, why we need to harness a, an empowerment mindset. We've talked so much on this podcast, Dave, about the victim mindset, but my call is for everyone to adopt an empowerment mindset where you play Yes, And... You know, I really love improv. Like, Yes, And... the game where you say, "Yes, I've had something terrible happen to me, and I got this." And it is a shame, I see so much in our society of us just stopping with the, "So much has happened to me," and I don't see the "and" part of that, which is, "And I have the deep reservoirs of resiliency to move forward with my life with meaning and purpose." Both-

    7. CW

      Hmm.

    8. SK

      ... things can be true at the same time. We don't need to neglect or downplay terrible things that have happened to someone else or that have happened to ourselves. That's, that's, that's love is being able to acknowledge and validate. People just wanna be validated. But they... Well, no, they don't just wanna be validated. People want to be validated, but they don't just wanna be validated. They wanna be validated for what they've been through, but they also want people to believe in them that they can rise above it.

    9. CW

      Scott, I appreciate

  15. 1:14:05 – 1:14:42

    Where to Find Scott

    1. CW

      the heck out of you, man. Uh, let's not-

    2. SK

      Likewise.

    3. CW

      ... wait five years before we bring-

    4. SK

      Yeah.

    5. CW

      ... you back on. Uh, where should people go if they wanna keep up to date with all the stuff you're doing?

    6. SK

      Thank you, and, and likewise, by the way. I really respect the hell out of you, man. Um, yeah, my website is, um, scottbarrykaufman.com. I have lots of stuff on there. I, um, you can buy Rise Above in, uh, hopefully any bookstore or online bookstore, and I have the psychology podcast. Yeah.

    7. CW

      Damn right. Scott-

    8. SK

      Wherever you need to be.

    9. CW

      ... I appreciate you, man. Until next time.

    10. SK

      Until next time.

    11. CW

      Congratulations. You made it to the end of the episode. And if you want more, well, why don't you press right here? Come on.

Episode duration: 1:14:42

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