How To Overcome Procrastination | Petr Ludwig | Modern Wisdom Podcast 197

1. 0:00 – 1:12

   Intro

   1. PLPetr Ludwig0:00

      The main idea about procrastination is that procrastination is not a time management problem, but it's emotional management problem. The more you fail, the more you have negative emotions, and then the more you fail in the future. It's like a feedback loop that reinforce itself.

   2. CWChris Williamson0:18

      (wind blowing) I am joined by Peter Ludwick. Peter, welcome to the show.

   3. PLPetr Ludwig0:22

      Hi. Thank you for having me.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:24

      Thank you for being here. Procrastination, the curse-

   5. PLPetr Ludwig0:28

      Yeah. (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson0:28

      ... the curse of everyone's productivity. You're-

   7. PLPetr Ludwig0:31

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson0:31

      ... gonna guide us through the murky waters that are procrastination today, right?

   9. PLPetr Ludwig0:35

      Of course I will.

   10. CWChris Williamson0:36

       I love it. So let's get-

   11. PLPetr Ludwig0:38

       (laughs)

   12. CWChris Williamson0:38

       ... into it. What is procrastination? Define it for us.

   13. PLPetr Ludwig0:41

       Wow. Uh, it's this situation when you know what to do but you are doing something very different. So basically, you know that you want to write a new book and you are spending, uh, endless amount of, uh, time on social media, or you know that you have, uh, 10 emails that are very important but you are answering to those that are unimportant. So basically, procrastination is a situation when you know what to do but you are failing in doing that.

2. 1:12 – 5:15

   What is procrastination

   1. CWChris Williamson1:12

      Not fulfilling the things that you say that you're going to do is-

   2. PLPetr Ludwig1:16

      Right.

   3. CWChris Williamson1:17

      ... is such a huge hole, I think, and it becomes, it can quite easily become an existential crisis for a lot of people, right? Because-

   4. PLPetr Ludwig1:25

      Exactly. Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson1:25

      ... if you don't have faith in your own word, in the promises-

   6. PLPetr Ludwig1:28

      Right.

   7. CWChris Williamson1:28

      ... that you say you're going to keep to yourself, the next time you say you're going to do something, you have less faith in the fact that you're going to do it.

   8. PLPetr Ludwig1:34

      Exactly. And the, the main, main idea about procrastination is that procrastination is not a time management problem, but it's emotional management problem. So basically, the more you fail, the more you have negative emotions, and then the more you fail, fail in the future. So it's like a feedback loop that reinforce itself. So the more you procrastinate, the more you procrastinate.

   9. CWChris Williamson1:57

      Oh, no.

   10. PLPetr Ludwig1:57

       That's why it's so, so, uh, dangerous and, uh, I think that it's, it's a, um, main topic for 21st century. Basically, everyone is procrastinating and we see, uh, that it's, it, it's much worse than it was, like, 10, uh, years ago because we have social media, we are overwhelmed, uh, at work by so many emails priorities. So I really believe this, that, uh, to know how to fight procrastination is a key skill for not just to have a successful life, but to have a, like, happy life and calm life and not to be crazy.

   11. CWChris Williamson2:34

       I love it, man. Wait, like, where do we-

   12. PLPetr Ludwig2:35

       (laughs)

   13. CWChris Williamson2:35

       ... where do we start then? We want to not procrastinate. We want to be able to do the things we say that we are going to do to ourselves. Where do we begin looking at procrastination?

   14. PLPetr Ludwig2:45

       Yeah, uh, in my book I have, uh, like, three chapters and first chapter is about motivation, how to find long-term intrinsic motivation. And still I believe that this first chapter is, is the key to understand why you procrastinate because, uh, if you have right motivation, if you truly believe in what we are doing, if we see a meaning in that, then, uh, it's much easier to push ourself. The second, uh, chapter is about willpower, but willpower is, is just a, a little helper but it's not the key for, uh, procrastination because if you have strong willpower and you are pushing yourself to things that are meaningless to you, then at the end, you don't feel good. So first motivation and then willpower. I know a lot of people that they have strong willpowers and they are working on projects, they don't procrastinate, but, uh, they are w- working on project that they are not meaningful to them. So, uh, strong willpower can backfire. And so first, intrinsic motivation and then, uh, willpower. And the third chapter is about how to overcome failures and how to get back on track when you, uh, somehow fail or if you experience some, like, tough, tough, uh, moments in your life, so how to get back on, on, on track.

   15. CWChris Williamson4:04

       Got you. So meaning. How do we find meaning? How do we ensure-

   16. PLPetr Ludwig4:07

       (laughs)

   17. CWChris Williamson4:07

       ... the things that we're doing are meaningful?

   18. PLPetr Ludwig4:09

       Wow. Yeah.

   19. CWChris Williamson4:09

       No, no, no small question.

   20. PLPetr Ludwig4:10

       (clears throat) Yep. Basically I, I probably read all scientific papers about purpose at work, about meaning and, uh, the key to understand this topic is to really know your strengths and use your strengths doing something, uh, greater than you. So not to be just selfish but ask yourself how you can, uh, use your strengths to do, do a, a s- something meaningful to, to others. How to improve, uh, communities that you are part of, how to somehow slowly, uh, improve the world and so on. So using your strengths for others is, uh, is s- it seems that it's the key for long term intrinsic motivation.

   21. CWChris Williamson4:55

       Interesting.

   22. PLPetr Ludwig4:55

       So basically, those people that are just selfish and, uh, if you just want to have, uh, more money or if you want to, uh, be, uh, higher on, uh, on a corporate ladder, that's not the right motivation because then you are still empty because, uh, you are just self-serving to yourself.

3. 5:15 – 9:28

   Intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation

   1. PLPetr Ludwig5:15

   2. CWChris Williamson5:15

      Well, a lot of people might say, "I'm at university," or, "I'm, I'm doing a degree of some kind," or, "I'm studying. I want this degree."

   3. PLPetr Ludwig5:24

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson5:24

      "Sometimes work feels a little bit like a, a drain but I want, I want this law degree, this doctorate degree, this marketing degree," whatever it might be. Um, "But yet when it's exam time, I still sit down at my desk and I get distracted."

   5. PLPetr Ludwig5:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson5:37

      "I don't do the things." Eh, what's happening there with meaning and, and procrastination? How do those two link in?

   7. PLPetr Ludwig5:43

      Right. Uh, I do a lot of, uh, projects with students too and it's a huge difference if you are studying just because of the, uh, of the degree at the end or if you are studying because you really want to understand the law and then, uh, help others or, uh, be a good lawyer. So, uh-Intrinsic motivation is always about, uh, purpose, long-term purpose. But extrinsic motivation is about goals. So, and if you read a lot of motivational books, uh, they tell you to set goals. And I really don't believe in goals because it seems that if you have a goal, uh, then, uh, okay, it motivates you, but when you reach the goal, you experience what is called a hedonic adaptation. Yeah, you get used to, uh, that goal, uh, very quickly. So, uh, there was a s- study and it seems that, um, like the positive emotion after you, uh, finish your university or if you get, get a degree, it's only few, f- few hours, maybe few days, but then you are empty again. So, this is You've studied ...

   8. CWChris Williamson6:53

      ... just the pitfall. Potentially studied for five years for-

   9. PLPetr Ludwig6:56

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson6:56

       ... for a couple of hours of satisfaction. (laughs)

   11. PLPetr Ludwig6:59

       And, and, and, in, in psychology they call it hedonic adaptation and it seems that we, uh, adaptate also on the biggest, uh, things. Like if you win a Noble Prize or if you win a gold Olympic medal, still the, the happiness, the lifespan of the, of the happiness is one week or less.

   12. CWChris Williamson7:19

       Shit.

   13. PLPetr Ludwig7:20

       So I have a friend and I had her in podcast and she, she was a gold Olympic medal winner. And what she told me was that after she won, won the medal, then the next few days were crazy happy and then she was empty. Like, "And now what? I win the Olympics, so what's the next step?" So ...

   14. CWChris Williamson7:44

       What's the alternative then? So what's the alternative? If we're not setting goals, what are we doing?

   15. PLPetr Ludwig7:48

       Yeah. In, in my book I describe two kinds of intrinsic motivation. One is intrinsic motivation on goals and the second is intrinsic motivation by, by, uh, by journey, focusing on path rather than the destination. It's the old saying, uh, uh, that the path is much more important than the destination is. But it seems that the recent psychology really uncovered that it works like that. So basically what we want is to be in a state of flow. If you're doing something and you enjoy the process, then you reach even more goals. If you are just focusing on goals and you don't enjoy the process, at the end it's much worse. So, and I have a great example of one of top hockey players and they made an interview with him and they asked him, like, "What is the core of your motivation?" His name is Jaromir Jagr. He's one of top NHL players. And the answer was that his motivation is that he loved the process, he loved trainings, he loved playing hockey. And if he loves playing hockey, at the end he's winning medals. And it's not about medals, it's about the journey more than about the destination. So I truly believe in, in this. So basically if you love the process, you don't procrastinate doing those things because you already love the process.

   16. CWChris Williamson9:17

       Mm.

   17. PLPetr Ludwig9:17

       So that's why I'm focusing on a project that I really enjoy doing and at the end you don't procrastinate it.

4. 9:28 – 11:14

   Finding meaning in everything

   1. PLPetr Ludwig9:28

   2. CWChris Williamson9:28

      How do people who perhaps don't have as much degrees of freedom to change-

   3. PLPetr Ludwig9:34

      Right.

   4. CWChris Williamson9:35

      ... what they want to do, you know, does-

   5. PLPetr Ludwig9:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. CWChris Williamson9:37

      Everybody's got to do their car insurance-

   7. PLPetr Ludwig9:39

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson9:39

      ... or file their taxes, you know? We can't find meaning in everything. So is the rule to find meaning where we can and then is there an alternative strategy for in the things like the taking the bins out, the filing the taxes? What do we do there?

   9. PLPetr Ludwig9:54

      Right. Right. Uh, I really don't like the saying, like, do what you love. Because if you are telling people do what you love, at the end they don't know what they love. So basically I'm telling, like, love what you do. So for the... In the beginning, you should try to find passion in things that you are already doing and there is a lot of science behind it. It's research from Emile Rzeźnicki from Yale University and he calls this process job crafting. Basically it's about to ask yourself, like, what is your strengths and how you can use those strengths on a daily basis? Or there's the meaning of your work, how you can increase the meaning, so how you can serve your clients even more, how you can do some little things that can help your colleagues, can make them happy and so on and so on. So there's a process how to craft your career, craft your daily working routine and if you change this mindset about your work, at the end you enjoy your work much more. So even though in the beginning you don't like what you're doing, at the end you can do the same job but with a different mindset. So it's more about mindset than about the real work.

5. 11:14 – 14:55

   Explore vs Exploit

   1. PLPetr Ludwig11:14

   2. CWChris Williamson11:14

      I understand. I think one of the things that's interesting is when someone is on a path to a higher purpose for themselves, that might be be an amazing brother, mother, father, you know, son or daughter to someone, it might be to do with contributing to their community or it might be becoming the best athlete that they can become.

   3. PLPetr Ludwig11:36

      Mm-hmm.

   4. CWChris Williamson11:36

      All of the other things fall in line to be in service to that, right?

   5. PLPetr Ludwig11:40

      Right.

   6. CWChris Williamson11:40

      If you have to have the job that pays the wage so that you can take three weeks off a year to go and race bicycling in France or whatever it might be, you're happy to go to work because you're like, "Look-"... I feel like my-

   7. PLPetr Ludwig11:55

      Great. Go on.

   8. CWChris Williamson11:55

      ... higher calling is this sport-

   9. PLPetr Ludwig11:57

      Mm-hmm.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:57

       ... and this, all the, the hours at work, like, cool, I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna get through it. But y- you're right, like, I think a lot of people struggle with purpose and meaning because they're just spinning the wheels. They don't actually know what the reason is-

   11. PLPetr Ludwig12:10

       Yep.

   12. CWChris Williamson12:10

       ... for them doing the thing.

   13. PLPetr Ludwig12:12

       Yeah. Mm-hmm.

   14. CWChris Williamson12:13

       Um, and we, we recently had a, a couple of f- uh, podcasts that have touched on this as well, but explore versus exploit being one of those-

   15. PLPetr Ludwig12:21

       Right.

   16. CWChris Williamson12:21

       ... paradigms is really important, right?

   17. PLPetr Ludwig12:22

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CWChris Williamson12:22

       In the beginning try all the different things. Greg Mckeown from Essentialism was on talking about this.

   19. PLPetr Ludwig12:27

       Mm-hmm.

   20. CWChris Williamson12:28

       All the different things that you can do. What, do I like this? No. Do I like this?

   21. PLPetr Ludwig12:32

       Yes.

   22. CWChris Williamson12:32

       No. Do I like this? Yeah, it's all right.

   23. PLPetr Ludwig12:33

       Exactly, yeah.

   24. CWChris Williamson12:34

       Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. And then eventually you find something that actually is the reason that you are here. And that might change over time, but just find something-

   25. PLPetr Ludwig12:42

       Mm-hmm.

   26. CWChris Williamson12:42

       ... that allows you to transcend the challenge.

   27. PLPetr Ludwig12:44

       Yeah.

   28. CWChris Williamson12:44

       So, okay, I like, I like the, the meaning and, and, and stuff like that.

   29. PLPetr Ludwig12:48

       Yeah.

   30. CWChris Williamson12:48

       Moving on to willpower, what do, what do we know about willpower? How can we utilize willpower for, uh, reducing our procrastination?
6. 14:55 – 17:43

   How to overcome procrastination

   1. CWChris Williamson14:55

      It's interesting, as we're talking about this, like, a lot of what some of the listeners might have expected as we were talking about how to overcome procrastination in 2020, it would have been, um, a bunch of hacks. Like, oh, uh, this particular, use RescueTime on your MacBook and keep your phone outside of your bedroom and do-

   2. PLPetr Ludwig15:12

      No. No.

   3. CWChris Williamson15:12

      ... this and do that and do the other. We're, we're going more high level than that, right?

   4. PLPetr Ludwig15:17

      Right. Because (laughs) that's the only way how to solve procrastination. I think that, uh, procrastination is, is like a r- red blinking light and it's telling you you don't have the right motivation, you don't see purpose into your work, or y- y- you don't have, uh, a strong willpower. It's, it's, it's not about, uh, installing a new app. Come on, like... (laughs)

   5. CWChris Williamson15:40

      (laughs)

   6. PLPetr Ludwig15:41

      (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson15:41

      Yeah, no, but t- the fact of the matter is that we are told-

   8. PLPetr Ludwig15:46

      Mm-hmm.

   9. CWChris Williamson15:46

      ... in this gig economy with constant new courses being released or a new application or this MacBook or whatever it might be, that that is the tool, right? That that is the thing which is going-

   10. PLPetr Ludwig15:58

       Mm-hmm.

   11. CWChris Williamson15:59

       ... to fix it. And it seems like that's just the icing on top of the cake.

   12. PLPetr Ludwig16:03

       Yep. Yep. Uh, I, I truly believe that, uh, the solution, it's m- it's much, much deeper. For example, there was another interesting study and the study was about self-forgiveness. And it, it seems that, uh, if you are able to forgive yourself after you fail, then you procrastinate less.

   13. CWChris Williamson16:23

       Ooh, that's really interesting.

   14. PLPetr Ludwig16:23

       And, uh, the idea behind that is that, uh, if you are unable to for- uh, to do self-forgiveness to, mm, then, then you have much more negative emotions and it can backfire again. So, sometimes when you fail you're, uh, it's not about failure th- that much, it's about your mindset about the failure. And if you are able to for- forgive yourself and if you are fine with that and you are okay, uh, I was able to run, uh, for two weeks and now I failed. Just forgive yourself and start again and, uh, th- that's why self-forgiveness is one of, uh, those hacks how to, uh, decrease your procrastination. And it's very counterintuitive. Um, be nice to yourself, be-

   15. CWChris Williamson17:10

       To accept yourself for not achieving the thing you said you were going to do.

   16. PLPetr Ludwig17:14

       Right. So it's j- just the, the opposite what you should expect.

   17. CWChris Williamson17:18

       Yeah.

   18. PLPetr Ludwig17:18

       So, uh, we often think that those people that they are, uh, hard to themself, they procrastinate less, but that's not truth, because they are in even worse situation. Because they're, they're hard to themself, but at the end, they have much more negative emotions when they fail and that, uh, failure, uh, pains themself like, uh, three times more than if they are able to forgive.

   19. CWChris Williamson17:42

       Mm.

7. 17:43 – 20:46

   Selfflagellation

   1. CWChris Williamson17:43

      You, you're right. I can see, I know a, a ton of buddies who will be listening-

   2. PLPetr Ludwig17:49

      (laughs)

   3. CWChris Williamson17:50

      ... that will lambast themselves, the, the self-flagellation, right? They'll-

   4. PLPetr Ludwig17:54

      Right, yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson17:54

      They'll whip themselves into wanting to do more because it's easy to think that that's the solution.

   6. PLPetr Ludwig18:00

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson18:00

      I didn't do enough. I need to lean into this even moreso. But...... what we were talking about at the beginning. I love this idea of having trust in your own word, like being able to-

   8. PLPetr Ludwig18:10

      Uh-huh.

   9. CWChris Williamson18:10

      ... keep promises to yourself. Like, if you trust that you're going to keep a promise to yourself and you break it, you don't make it better by telling yourself, "Oh, you're such an idiot." Like, "You need to do better next time."

   10. PLPetr Ludwig18:22

       Right. Yeah, yeah. With this-

   11. CWChris Williamson18:22

       What do you do? Like, think about what happens with a friend. You and a friend get into an argument-

   12. PLPetr Ludwig18:27

       Mm-hmm.

   13. CWChris Williamson18:27

       ... they're a dick or you're a dick, or you're both dicks or whatever it might be.

   14. PLPetr Ludwig18:31

       Yeah. Exactly.

   15. CWChris Williamson18:31

       Um, you say, "Hey man, look, I'm sorry. Let's go for a coffee. Uh, let's put that behind us. Let's move on."

   16. PLPetr Ludwig18:38

       Exactly, yeah, yeah. And that, and you- you need, uh, a self-esteem to be productive. So if you are undermining yourself, then at the end, uh, you don't trust in yourself and you have much higher risk to fail again.

   17. CWChris Williamson18:54

       I think-

   18. PLPetr Ludwig18:54

       So it's much wiser to be nice to yourself.

   19. CWChris Williamson18:56

       Yeah, I mean, Jordan Peterson befriends, uh, treat yourself as if you are someone you are responsible for helping.

   20. PLPetr Ludwig19:02

       Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson19:02

       It's- it's such a wonderful worldview, but it's so hard, right? Especially if you- you want to be driven, type A personality, you wanna do the- the work and- and be as good as you can. It's a slippery slope to go from-

   22. PLPetr Ludwig19:15

       Mm-hmm.

   23. CWChris Williamson19:15

       ... um, thinking, "I am able to accept when I don't meet my own standards," to, "I am simply allowing myself to be lazy, I am allowing myself..." And that line, right?

   24. PLPetr Ludwig19:26

       Right, yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson19:27

       Finding where that line is, is difficult.

   26. PLPetr Ludwig19:28

       Mm-hmm. Yep. And I- I have a great tool for that because, uh, I told myself this year to only work, uh, four- four days in a week. So I have one day off and basically, uh, in that day, I'm much more productive because I don't have to be productive. So and for me it's- it's- it's the best day in a week because, uh, I don't plan anything, so I don't have meetings, I don't have webinars. It's just, uh, it's just a free day. But I wake up, then I'm like, doing some unimportant things and then I'm like, "Okay, what's the most important thing to do now?" And basically in- in that day, I'm working on the most important projects and I- I love it because I don't have to. So it- it's- it's, uh, just the opposite motivation, uh, to- to compare to other days when I had to. If I had a meeting, I have to be there. But, uh, that day I also can have a meeting, but I really want to have that meeting. So it's- it's just the opposite mindset and I really recommend this, uh, like tool or hack to- to all my clients because, uh, it's an investment into your, uh, mental health.

8. 20:46 – 23:53

   The Google Rule

   1. PLPetr Ludwig20:46

   2. CWChris Williamson20:46

      Well, I mean, isn't it Google that gives its employees 20% of their time to work on whatever they want to do?

   3. PLPetr Ludwig20:53

      I think that they used to do that. Now they cancel this rule, but, uh, they had this rule in the beginning of Goo- Goo- of Google. Now they don't have this rule anymore, but- but for me-

   4. CWChris Williamson21:04

      That's a shame. Sergei, what are you doing? Listen to us.

   5. PLPetr Ludwig21:06

      (laughs)

   6. CWChris Williamson21:06

      We're talking about procrastination.

   7. PLPetr Ludwig21:08

      Yeah, and, uh, I- I come up to- to, well, to the- to the idea when I go on a holiday, I always book one day before a holiday, like holiday before a holiday.

   8. CWChris Williamson21:22

      (laughs)

   9. PLPetr Ludwig21:22

      And then I book one more day after the holiday, like holiday after holiday. And if you have this like, um, bump-

   10. CWChris Williamson21:30

       Bumper plates, yeah, yeah.

   11. PLPetr Ludwig21:32

       Yeah, it works much better because you are not in- in- in that, uh, high level of stress that tomorrow I have to go for a vacation.

   12. CWChris Williamson21:40

       (laughs) Man, feel it. Like I- I travel quite a bit, or at least I used to before there was a pandemic, um...

   13. PLPetr Ludwig21:46

       Right. (laughs)

   14. CWChris Williamson21:46

       And, um, I think I went on like 10, 10 or 12 holidays last year and the number of times where one of my housemates will say to me, "Hey man, like you all, you all set for tomorrow?" I'll be like, "Oh dude, no, I've got so much to do before I can even think about leaving tomorrow. Like, I got to go do this and prep the podcast and do this, that and the other." And, um, you're totally correct. Like you, so much of our enjoyment in life comes from the anticipating of things. We are anticipatory beings, right?

   15. PLPetr Ludwig22:14

       Right, yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson22:14

       We, in fact- in fact, there's some fairly good research that shows we enjoy the anticipation of something more than the thing itself, which is-

   17. PLPetr Ludwig22:20

       Right.

   18. CWChris Williamson22:20

       ... which is super, super interesting.

   19. PLPetr Ludwig22:22

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson22:22

       But like, I ruin that. I ruin a big chunk of that because I work right up until the limit.

   21. PLPetr Ludwig22:29

       Mm-hmm.

   22. CWChris Williamson22:29

       Like I remember- I remember sometimes I would get like an early morning flight and I would pull an all-nighter before the flight on holiday. And then obviously like the first day of my holiday was just a complete like wreck.

   23. PLPetr Ludwig22:42

       Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   24. CWChris Williamson22:42

       It was total chaos trying to recover from the day that allowed me to go on holiday.

   25. PLPetr Ludwig22:47

       Yep. And I have another example of that is Japan. I go to Japan every year for one month and I do nothing there. It's- it's just my like empty- empty month. I'm not writing a book there, I'm not working on new projects, I'm just there. And it's an investment because the months after I'm back from Japan, I am like three times more productive because you restart everything in your brain, you restart your willpower again, you- you- you are back, uh- uh, in- in the moods that you- you- you are able to do things because you- you- your brain is restarted. So I really recommend to have long holidays, to really do nothing for three- three, four weeks and at the end, uh, you are much more productive. So if you sum the whole productivity of the year, it's bigger altogether even though you spend one month doing nothing. So this- this is, this was the best for my productivity and for my procrastination, not being in Japan.

   26. CWChris Williamson23:52

       How about-

   27. PLPetr Ludwig23:52

       Yeah.

9. 23:53 – 25:45

   Good Habits

   1. PLPetr Ludwig23:53

   2. CWChris Williamson23:53

      How about people who have concerns that they might fall out of a, um, good habits whilst they're away? So they go to Japan or Texas or Romania or wherever it is for a month and they just, they're getting up whenever they want and they're not- they're not in the rhythm of training or working or doing whatever and they're scared that when they get back, they're not going to have that routine and it's gonna, they- they're just gonna, all the habits are gonna be out the window.

   3. PLPetr Ludwig24:20

      ... yeah, then you have to ask why you want to have those routines. And often, you want routines because you don't have willpower to push yourself to do things. And if you spend one month alone, then you have much stronger willpower, so then you don't need routines that much. So, the answer is that after you are back, it, y- you are doing everything much, uh, easier and, uh, everything is very easy after being, uh, back fr- from su- such a long holiday. And the second very important argument for, for this is that, uh, I'm entrepreneur. I have 35 employees and I, mm, do business for, let's say, 14, 15 years now. And for me, uh, this is the definition of the freedom, to be able to spend one month alone and not to be a slave in your own company. So, I really had to change many things and m- many, m- many, uh, processes in my company to make the company ready for me to not be there. And when I moved to the US, because, uh, I moved to the US, uh, two, two months, uh, t- two years ago, uh, at the end, the company was ready for me to not to be there. And, uh, that was the best in my life because now I'm very free. I can do whatever I want, and the company works, uh, without me. So-

10. 25:45 – 29:18

    The EMyth

    1. PLPetr Ludwig25:45

    2. CWChris Williamson25:45

       Have you read The E-Myth, The Entrepreneur's Myth, the book?

    3. PLPetr Ludwig25:48

       N- no, no.

    4. CWChris Williamson25:49

       Okay. So, in that they talk about the fact that if you have a business or if you're a business owner and you can't leave that business for more than two weeks without everything breaking, you don't have a business.

    5. PLPetr Ludwig26:04

       Mm-hmm. Right.

    6. CWChris Williamson26:04

       You've, you just have-

    7. PLPetr Ludwig26:05

       Oh, yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson26:05

       ... you have a highly leveraged job.

    9. PLPetr Ludwig26:06

       (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson26:06

        You'd love, you'd love that book, man.

    11. PLPetr Ludwig26:08

        Exactly, yeah, yeah.

    12. CWChris Williamson26:08

        The E-Myth, yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's fantastic. Um, so okay, we've got the fact that we need purpose and meaning. We need to find that. We're getting that through explore and exploit while also trying to connect to a higher purpose.

    13. PLPetr Ludwig26:20

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CWChris Williamson26:20

        That higher purpose also tends to be serving other people, transcending ourselves, peop- uh-

    15. PLPetr Ludwig26:25

        Right.

    16. CWChris Williamson26:26

        ... the listeners who heard my most recent episode with Scott Barry Kaufman on his book Transcend, which is all about Maslow's hierarchy of needs-

    17. PLPetr Ludwig26:33

        Mm-hmm.

    18. CWChris Williamson26:33

        ... they'll know that already. Um, and after that, we're talking about willpower. We know that willpower ebbs and flows and it can be trained, that we need to do physical exercise. And what was the second thing that we need to do?

    19. PLPetr Ludwig26:46

        Mindfulness.

    20. CWChris Williamson26:46

        Mindfulness.

    21. PLPetr Ludwig26:47

        T- to regulate your emotions.

    22. CWChris Williamson26:49

        Cool. Okay.

    23. PLPetr Ludwig26:49

        Because as I said in the beginning, procrastination is emotional problem rather than time management problem.

    24. CWChris Williamson26:54

        I love it. Um, before we move on from willpower, what side of the fence do you sit on about whether or not you get willpower depletion through the day or not?

    25. PLPetr Ludwig27:04

        Yeah, basically, I believe in depletion because, uh, I, my experience is whenever I'm tired, it's much more difficult to push myself to do things. And whenever I'm tired, I procrastinate, uh, much more and, uh, it's easier to me to, uh, drink beers and so on. So, I believe in depletion during the day, but I truly believe that, uh, you can overcome the depletion w- with small rests d- during the day. So basically, sometimes I'm m- I- I'm, uh, tired and then I have a big talk for, let's say, 500 people, and at the end of the talk, I have, uh, new energy and, uh, I'm able to restart everything. And, uh, I truly believe that working on projects that are meaningful, uh, are not draining your energy, but they give, uh, they give you the energy. So, that's why, uh, if you procrastinate, at the end you, are empty, but if you are working on mea- meaningful projects, at the end you will have even more energy than, uh, at the beginning.

    26. CWChris Williamson28:12

        That's the problem I have when I do this podcast-

    27. PLPetr Ludwig28:14

        Yeah. (laughs)

    28. CWChris Williamson28:14

        ... because I'm often recording with people in America.

    29. PLPetr Ludwig28:16

        Exactly.

    30. CWChris Williamson28:17

        And that-
11. 29:18 – 36:35

    Ego Depletion

    1. PLPetr Ludwig29:18

    2. CWChris Williamson29:18

       Yeah. The, the funniest, uh, the funniest argument that I've heard so far for ego depletion is ego depletion exists if you believe it exists.

    3. PLPetr Ludwig29:27

       (laughs)

    4. CWChris Williamson29:28

       Have you heard that one?

    5. PLPetr Ludwig29:29

       Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson29:29

       Yeah, s-

    7. PLPetr Ludwig29:30

       It can be like that.

    8. CWChris Williamson29:30

       So I'm like-

    9. PLPetr Ludwig29:31

       Yep, and it can be like that, yeah. (laughs)

    10. CWChris Williamson29:32

        ... "Fuck." Like, "I, what do I need to... Can I unlearn, can I unlearn the word ego depletion?"

    11. PLPetr Ludwig29:37

        (laughs)

    12. CWChris Williamson29:37

        Um, so yeah, I, I don't know, man. Okay, so that's two chapters down. Third chapter.

    13. PLPetr Ludwig29:43

        Uh, third chapter w- was about, uh, handling failure. And I truly believe in some, uh, like, deep experiences and, uh, I want to explain you more in detail what, uh, those experiences are. Uh, I have two examples that I experienced something that is called near-death experience. First was that, uh, I was like 19 years old and I was playing basketball, and I had some, like, brain of, um, kind of paralysis. And after a few hours, right side of my, my body was completely paralyzed. And, uh-

    14. CWChris Williamson30:19

        Holy shit.

    15. PLPetr Ludwig30:20

        ... it was the first situation in my life that I was, uh, experiencing the situation when you...... realist thing that you can die. And-

    16. CWChris Williamson30:29

        Fuck.

    17. PLPetr Ludwig30:29

        ... it was fucking scary.

    18. CWChris Williamson30:31

        (laughs) That's so bad.

    19. PLPetr Ludwig30:31

        But, uh, it really changed my, my, my values. It was very humbling experience. So, um, I was in the hospital, I was thinking that's, that's end of my life. But at the end, uh, I survived that after a few days without any side, side harm, si- side effects. So, basically tu- it was the best, uh, experience because since then, I'm thinking slightly differently about, uh, what is meaningful or what's not. So, for example, during the pandemic, uh, I only saw one, uh, film on my Netflix, only one because-

    20. CWChris Williamson31:08

        What was the film?

    21. PLPetr Ludwig31:09

        ... I really don't want to w- waste my time.

    22. CWChris Williamson31:11

        What did you watch? What was the film?

    23. PLPetr Ludwig31:13

        Uh, it, it was series about Donald Trump and I only saw-

    24. CWChris Williamson31:17

        Oh, was it the American Dream thing?

    25. PLPetr Ludwig31:19

        Yeah, it was. It was.

    26. CWChris Williamson31:19

        That's good.

    27. PLPetr Ludwig31:20

        And it was- (laughs)

    28. CWChris Williamson31:20

        That is pretty good. That's worth, that's a worthwhile series to watch.

    29. PLPetr Ludwig31:23

        Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) So, and, um, and after the beginning of the pandemic, uh, I switched everything and I was wor- working on a, on a project, Masks4All, to help as many people as possible to wear a face mask, and so on. So I switched my focus from procrastination to face masks from one day to another. So I spent like three weeks in a row, every day, like 12 hours, uh, doing on that project.

    30. CWChris Williamson31:48

        Wow.
12. 36:35 – 38:06

    Naval Ravikant

    1. CWChris Williamson36:35

       I couldn't agree more. There's a, a ton of quotes and, and thinkers that I've been, uh-

    2. PLPetr Ludwig36:39

       Mm-hmm.

    3. CWChris Williamson36:39

       ... referring to recently, one of them being Naval Ravikant, and he says, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." And that touches on the social media thing, like what's the prize?

    4. PLPetr Ludwig36:47

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson36:47

       What's the prize for always checking your Instagram three times a day? Like, you don't get-

    6. PLPetr Ludwig36:51

       Yep.

    7. CWChris Williamson36:51

       ... anything for that. You just-

    8. PLPetr Ludwig36:53

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson36:53

       ... satisfy yourself. There's this quote-

    10. PLPetr Ludwig36:54

        Yep.

    11. CWChris Williamson36:54

        ... from, uh, Jean-Paul Sartre here that I've got. "It is our duty to risk the easy and commonplace for the unique and great, to work toward our full potential in the face of all obstacles, including ourselves, to take responsibility for our life and what we make of it. Ultimately, no matter what we do or say or believe, there will always be a great many who disagree, or judge, or ridicule, or become upset by our decisions. But it is of essential importance that we try as often as possible to ensure that among these people, ourself is not one of them."

    12. PLPetr Ludwig37:26

        Huh. Man-

    13. CWChris Williamson37:27

        That's it, man. That's it.

    14. PLPetr Ludwig37:28

        Incredible. Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson37:30

        I love it.

    16. PLPetr Ludwig37:30

        And I truly believe that we are all on the same boat, because, uh, we are all global citizens. And, uh, I have experience living in Europe, in the US, in, in Asia, in Japan, and so what I feel is that we are all the same. We have all the same Instagrams, we have the similar struggles. The virus basically was everywhere. So now we know that we are on the same boat, so why not to cooperate more? Why, why not to be more, uh, collaborative as, uh, as m- mankind? Because we are divided by so many stupid things.

    17. CWChris Williamson38:05

        (laughs)

13. 38:06 – 43:56

    Social Norms

    1. CWChris Williamson38:06

    2. PLPetr Ludwig38:06

       Ugh.

    3. CWChris Williamson38:06

       Man, a- again, it just, it's so counter to, I think, innately what we feel we should do, because maybe a little bit of social norms, you see these guys crushing it, always working hard-

    4. PLPetr Ludwig38:20

       Mm-hmm.

    5. CWChris Williamson38:20

       ... type A mentality. Me with my Rolex, me with my fast car, me with my big house.

    6. PLPetr Ludwig38:24

       (laughs)

    7. CWChris Williamson38:24

       Um, but every single person that I know that is well-respected within the field of evolutionary-

    8. PLPetr Ludwig38:30

       Mm-hmm.

    9. CWChris Williamson38:30

       ... psychology or, uh, cognitive, uh, psychology or leadership or o- organizational psych- e- everything. Everyone says that the best way to improve your life is to improve other people's lives. And it's like-

    10. PLPetr Ludwig38:43

        Right.

    11. CWChris Williamson38:43

        ... there, there's not some big fucking conspiracy going on here.

    12. PLPetr Ludwig38:46

        (laughs)

    13. CWChris Williamson38:46

        There's not, there's not like some Masonic-

    14. PLPetr Ludwig38:49

        Right.

    15. CWChris Williamson38:50

        ... lodge hiding with big cloaks over their heads-

    16. PLPetr Ludwig38:52

        Let's go.

    17. CWChris Williamson38:52

        ... in a darkened room with a big pentagram on the floor saying, "We need to get everyone to think that they need to work with each other so it makes-

    18. PLPetr Ludwig38:59

        No.

    19. CWChris Williamson38:59

        ... it easier for everyone else." That's not the way it is. All of you guys-

    20. PLPetr Ludwig39:02

        No.

    21. CWChris Williamson39:02

        ... everyone that is an expert in this field is-

    22. PLPetr Ludwig39:04

        Mm-hmm.

    23. CWChris Williamson39:04

        ... converging on the same outcome, because-

    24. PLPetr Ludwig39:08

        Right.

    25. CWChris Williamson39:08

        ... there is truth in it.

    26. PLPetr Ludwig39:09

        Yeah. And I truly believe that we have only one enemy, and that's our ego. Because, uh, if you have a big ego, like if you are egoistic and you, if you think about yourself, then it's very difficult for you to help others, because you are only thinking about yourself. So humbleness, in my world, is, uh, the key, uh, antidote for, for the ego. So basically, those, uh, near-death experiences or those difficult moments, uh, those humbling experiences then help you to help others more. Because then you understand that the world isn't, is not about yourself, it's more about others. Because if you are, if, if you die, well, th- the life continues without you, so that's why you should help others and improve the society, because it, uh, you live your life after in those people, so-

    27. CWChris Williamson40:05

        That's your legacy, right?

    28. PLPetr Ludwig40:06

        It's your legacy. It, and s- it's your immortality if, if, if you are self- selfless. So being-

    29. CWChris Williamson40:13

        How do you-

    30. PLPetr Ludwig40:13

        ... selfish, selfish is, is, is, uh, v- very, uh, how, how, how to describe it?
14. 43:56 – 45:16

    Traumatic Experiences

    1. PLPetr Ludwig43:56

    2. CWChris Williamson43:56

       Does that mean that traumatic experiences are better learning opportunities-

    3. PLPetr Ludwig44:01

       Right. Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson44:01

       ... than successful experiences?

    5. PLPetr Ludwig44:02

       Yeah. It, it, there, there, there is a huge meta-analysis from 2009 about, uh, post-traumatic growth and it seems that, uh, if you have a traumatic event, then you can have post-traumatic, uh, PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, or you can have post-traumatic growth. Uh, and the, the key or the difference between those two people is really the mindset. So basically, there are many examples of, uh, survivals of, uh, concentration camps and at the end, they live to their 90s, 100s, and they wrote many books and they lived a, uh, many fulfi- uh, fulfilled lives, but, uh, there is also examples of many people that after, uh, they, uh, liberated those camps, they committed suicide. So and basically, uh, I truly believe that not the situation, but our mindset about the situation shapes, uh, the future for us. So even though I survived two near-death experiences-

    6. CWChris Williamson45:08

       (laughs)

    7. PLPetr Ludwig45:08

       ... I think that, uh, I'm very happy that I experienced those two events, even though it was so, so scary.

15. 45:16 – 48:45

    Existential Risk

    1. PLPetr Ludwig45:16

    2. CWChris Williamson45:16

       I know. Uh, I said this at the very beginning of the coronavirus that it's one of the few things that can unite us as a species, right? It doesn't-

    3. PLPetr Ludwig45:22

       Exactly. Yeah.

    4. CWChris Williamson45:23

       It doesn't even rain everywhere on the planet at the same time, but I know what it feels like to be in lockdown the same as someone in Italy-

    5. PLPetr Ludwig45:28

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson45:29

       ... the same as someone in America-

    7. PLPetr Ludwig45:30

       Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson45:30

       ... the same as someone in Brazil or Wuhan, you know, I know what-

    9. PLPetr Ludwig45:33

       Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson45:33

        I don't have the perfect, uh, but I- I'm united. I'm reading, um, Toby Ord., his book-

    11. PLPetr Ludwig45:39

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CWChris Williamson45:39

        ... his new book, The Precipice, and it's a-

    13. PLPetr Ludwig45:41

        Mm-hmm.

    14. CWChris Williamson45:41

        He's from the Future of Humanities Institute and it's all about existential risk. And it's like-

    15. PLPetr Ludwig45:46

        Yep.

    16. CWChris Williamson45:46

        ... make no mistake about this, we are a thin veneer of surviving on top of what is, everything is trying to kill us. From natural-

    17. PLPetr Ludwig45:53

        Yep.

    18. CWChris Williamson45:53

        ... risks to anthropo- uh, anthropology, anthro- whatever it is, that risk-

    19. PLPetr Ludwig45:57

        Mm-hmm.

    20. CWChris Williamson45:58

        ... to the, (laughs) uh, to future risks that are gonna come from bio-weapons-

    21. PLPetr Ludwig46:01

        Yeah.

    22. CWChris Williamson46:01

        ... from artificial general intelligence, whatever it might be. And he-

    23. PLPetr Ludwig46:05

        Yep.

    24. CWChris Williamson46:05

        This is, this guy has written, uh, 500 page, 400 page book on it from the premier existential risk department in the world and he puts our chance of surviving the next 100 years at 50%.

    25. PLPetr Ludwig46:20

        Mm-hmm.

    26. CWChris Williamson46:21

        Why? Like, that, that is a reason to live your life. That is a reason to try and find the most meaning, to try and be the best person that you can be. And a- again, like, when you reframe that and you realize I've spent, uh, 150 hours during lockdown watching Netflix movies that I didn't even like-

    27. PLPetr Ludwig46:37

        Yeah.

    28. CWChris Williamson46:38

        ... it k- it does shine quite a harsh light-

    29. PLPetr Ludwig46:40

        Yeah.

    30. CWChris Williamson46:40

        ... onto that. And that's not me saying I don't do it. Like, I waste my time just as much as anyone, but you know what I mean.
16. 48:45 – 50:41

    Bookend

    1. CWChris Williamson48:45

       world. What a- what a- what a thing to do. Okay, so I wanna, I wanna kind of bookend what we know about procrastination. We've given ourselves-

    2. PLPetr Ludwig48:51

       Right.

    3. CWChris Williamson48:51

       ... a nice framework there. Let's say someone's listening and they just keep procrastinating. They've got a bunch of tasks that they've got to get done, maybe they don't quite have the degrees of freedom to be able to not do them, they can't get rid of them to find meaning. You're sitting down now to start to do the things that you have to do, what would you say or what are some of the things that those people can do in terms of actual takeaway tactics that will actually move the needle for them?

    4. PLPetr Ludwig49:17

       Well, do 20 push-ups daily. (laughs) Basically, do exercise on a daily basis because it really, uh, can boost your willpower. Uh, ask yourself what is, uh, the real reason why you are doing those things, so what is the purpose? So basically ask the question why. Why are you doing those things, and how you can, uh, improve those things that you are doing in terms of a greater, uh, meaning. So, how can you add some small details that can help your clients or your colleagues, uh, even more? And then, um, ask what are your strengths and how you can improve those, those strengths, because, uh, if you already believe in what you are doing and if you believe that you are skilled in those domains, you enjoy the process even more. And focus on the process more than, uh, the destination. So goals are not important because we are getting used to them because of the hedonic adaptation. So try to enjoy the process more and try to enjoy th- e- every minute, and, uh, I call this healthy perfectionism because, uh, th- I have this concept from Japan. So whatev- whatever you do, try to, uh, do it as, as, as, as good as possible. And if you are focused on details, you enjoy the process even more, so ...

17. 50:41 – 52:16

    Next actions

    1. CWChris Williamson50:41

       That's cool. I noticed, I noticed today, you haven't mentioned anything about next actions, about next physical actions or about breaking large tasks down into their next iterative step. Is there a reason for that?

    2. PLPetr Ludwig50:54

       Yeah. No, I have th- this in my book too, but I think this- it's, uh, too obvious, so I wanted to discuss some non, uh, intuitive, uh, ideas.

    3. CWChris Williamson51:05

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, for the people who don't see it as obvious, would you be able to explain the concept of using a next action?

    4. PLPetr Ludwig51:12

       Okay, for example, when I was, uh, writing the book, uh, in the beginning I told myself, "Well, uh, write a chapter." So I had in my to-do, uh, plan, write a chapter, and w- write a chapter is a huge, uh, task, so, uh, I had a very negative emotion towards, uh, that task. But if you, uh, like cut the, the big thing into smaller parts, uh, then it's much easier. So for example, if you told, uh, tell yourself to write two paragraphs daily, it's much easier than to write a, a whole chapter. So basically this is a key hack how to overcome procrastination, so if you procrastinate something, just cut the task in the middle or, uh, divide the task into three smaller tasks, and then, uh, it's much easier. Because as I said, procrastination is emotional problem, so you have to really decrease the negative emotion, uh, the aversion against the, uh, the task, and if you divide the task, then you have, uh, smaller negative emotion.

18. 52:16 – 53:55

    Visual plans

    1. PLPetr Ludwig52:16

    2. CWChris Williamson52:16

       I like that. I like that a lot. I think the, the marrying of the big overarching meaning-based conceptual stuff with breaking things down, so for instance, the next action's one of them, I know that you have, uh, on your website, you talk about, um, a lot of the time people might not continue a task because they don't actually know what to do next.

    3. PLPetr Ludwig52:37

       Right.

    4. CWChris Williamson52:37

       Like, "What, what should I do?" And you talk about ...

    5. PLPetr Ludwig52:40

       Mm-hmm.

    6. CWChris Williamson52:40

       I think it's, um, go and do some research or ask someone for advice. Are those the two ...

    7. PLPetr Ludwig52:44

       Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson52:46

       Yeah. Well, I mean, the number of times that people sit down to try and do a task and they procrastinate on it because they don't actually know how to do the thing that they're trying to do.

    9. PLPetr Ludwig52:54

       Mm-hmm.

    10. CWChris Williamson52:54

        Now obviously, if you don't know how to do the thing you're trying to do, you're not going to do the thing that you're trying to do, right?

    11. PLPetr Ludwig52:59

        Right. Yeah. (laughs) Exactly. Yeah, so that's why I love some, uh, like visual plans, like mind maps. You can, you can, uh, for example, if you are starting a new project, I highly recommend to start with a mind map because then you know, like, what to do next. For example, uh, when I was writing the book, I had a mind map for each chapter, and when I was about to write, I already had the map and it told me, like, "Today you should write about, uh, willpower," for example. And, uh, to have a visual plan helps you to know what to do, uh, next. So it's, it's like a, a real map. If you are lost in a, in a city, uh, without map, you are confused, but if you have a map, then you know what to do next. So, uh, I highly recommend you to have mind maps for every project that you are working on.

    12. CWChris Williamson53:43

        Yeah, I- I'm someone who naturally doesn't plan a whole lot, um, which I know, yeah, it's, it's shocking. Um, but the more that I've trained myself to be able to do it, I ... It, it

19. 53:55 – 55:31

    Planning is a game changer

    1. CWChris Williamson53:55

       changes. It's such a game changer, and I think, um, previously, I had a resistance to planning because I thought this time that I'm spending planning could be spent doing. I don't need to do the plan, I can just start doing it. This is all wasted time. Why would I spend two hours planning something? I can get two hours of work in. What you don't realize is that that time at the beginning makes such a difference. You're like 10 times more efficient, like, even 100 times more efficient.

    2. PLPetr Ludwig54:21

       Exactly, yeah, yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson54:23

       Yeah.

    4. PLPetr Ludwig54:23

       100% right. Yeah. The, the, the writing, it's, it's, it's like that because if, if you sit and, uh, tell yourself ...... "Okay, now write."

    5. CWChris Williamson54:32

       (laughs)

    6. PLPetr Ludwig54:32

       You don't know what to write. If you have a good plan and if you have a, a, like, mind map for, uh, almost e- every paragraph of the book, then it's much easier to write. You just write wha- and you know what to write. So, um, like if you spend s- some time with planning, at the end, as you said, you are 10 times more productive-

    7. CWChris Williamson54:51

       Yeah.

    8. PLPetr Ludwig54:51

       ... probably. Yeah.

    9. CWChris Williamson54:52

       Peter, it's, that's awesome, man.

    10. PLPetr Ludwig54:54

        (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson54:54

        Anything else to say? Any final notes that we haven't covered today? Any bits that people need to know about procrastination?

    12. PLPetr Ludwig55:01

        Well, uh, I really want s- people to really rethink their lives in era of the, the virus. And I truly, uh, and highly recommend people to, um, be more humble after the, the crisis. So humbleness should be the, um, outcome of the, uh, crisis. So, that, that w- that was the main, uh, uh, idea for- for me for today, I guess.

20. 55:31 – 59:13

    The fragility of humanity

    1. PLPetr Ludwig55:31

    2. CWChris Williamson55:31

       Man, I think, um, well, anyone that's leaving the last few months, anyone that's leaving 2020-

    3. PLPetr Ludwig55:39

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson55:39

       ... and feeling like it's time to have it, to build an ego up, uh, like you just haven't existed in the same reality that the rest of us have.

    5. PLPetr Ludwig55:48

       Yep. Yep.

    6. CWChris Williamson55:48

       Like how can you see this as anything other than wow, mortality and humanity are so tenuous and so delicate.

    7. PLPetr Ludwig55:57

       Yeah. Yeah.

    8. CWChris Williamson55:58

       And, i- i- and- and y- you know, it does say a lot for the way that people are developing that I'm speaking to my neighbors more as I do a morning walk now.

    9. PLPetr Ludwig56:08

       Yeah. Yeah.

    10. CWChris Williamson56:08

        And people are coming up and they seem to be... I haven't seen road rage. Like do you remember road rage?

    11. PLPetr Ludwig56:12

        Mm-hmm.

    12. CWChris Williamson56:12

        I haven't seen road rage in like four months.

    13. PLPetr Ludwig56:14

        Hm.

    14. CWChris Williamson56:14

        There's no road rage. Everyone's, "Ah, this guy is having a bad time. This is challenging." There's, there's more-

    15. PLPetr Ludwig56:19

        Yeah.

    16. CWChris Williamson56:19

        ... understanding, more empathy, right? So-

    17. PLPetr Ludwig56:21

        Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson56:21

        Maybe, maybe you're right, maybe that's what's going to happen. Or perhaps people's memories are going to be short and it's going to take mother nature to fire another shot across our bow for us to realize-

    19. PLPetr Ludwig56:35

        Right. Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson56:35

        ... that we need to get our egos in check.

    21. PLPetr Ludwig56:38

        Right. Yeah. So probably this crisis can help us, and if not, we need another crisis, so.

    22. CWChris Williamson56:44

        (laughs) ? ? ? Well, I'll tell you what, if we d- if we haven't fixed it, you can just order us another crisis.

    23. PLPetr Ludwig56:49

        Right. Yeah.

    24. CWChris Williamson56:49

        Amazon, Amazon probably have a couple of crises that you can just buy, so go and get yourself one of there.

    25. PLPetr Ludwig56:54

        (laughs)

    26. CWChris Williamson56:55

        Um, where can people get your book, Petr? And what else should they check out? What do you wanna plug, uh, send people to?

    27. PLPetr Ludwig57:00

        Yeah. It's, it's very easy. Our domain is procrastination.com. So you can remember it easily. And it's, I guess, everywhere. It's in 18 languages now.

    28. CWChris Williamson57:10

        Oh my God.

    29. PLPetr Ludwig57:10

        So we have Japanese translation, Korean translation, many, uh, European languages. So you can get, uh, the book in your favorite language.

    30. CWChris Williamson57:19

        Man, lovely.

Episode duration: 59:13