How To Overcome Procrastination | Petr Ludwig | Modern Wisdom Podcast 197

Petr Ludwig 0:00 The main idea about procrastination is that procrastination is not a time management problem, but it's emotional management problem. The more you fail, the more you have negative emotions, and then the more you fail in the future. It's like a feedback loop that reinforce itself.

Chris Williamson 0:18 (wind blowing) I am joined by Peter Ludwick. Peter, welcome to the show.

Petr Ludwig 0:22 Hi. Thank you for having me.

Chris Williamson 0:24 Thank you for being here. Procrastination, the curse-

Petr Ludwig 0:28 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:28 ... the curse of everyone's productivity. You're-

Petr Ludwig 0:31 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 0:31 ... gonna guide us through the murky waters that are procrastination today, right?

Petr Ludwig 0:35 Of course I will.

Chris Williamson 0:36 I love it. So let's get-

Petr Ludwig 0:38 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 0:38 ... into it. What is procrastination? Define it for us.

Petr Ludwig 0:41 Wow. Uh, it's this situation when you know what to do but you are doing something very different. So basically, you know that you want to write a new book and you are spending, uh, endless amount of, uh, time on social media, or you know that you have, uh, 10 emails that are very important but you are answering to those that are unimportant. So basically, procrastination is a situation when you know what to do but you are failing in doing that.

Chris Williamson 1:12 Not fulfilling the things that you say that you're going to do is-

Petr Ludwig 1:16 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:17 ... is such a huge hole, I think, and it becomes, it can quite easily become an existential crisis for a lot of people, right? Because-

Petr Ludwig 1:25 Exactly. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 1:25 ... if you don't have faith in your own word, in the promises-

Petr Ludwig 1:28 Right.

Chris Williamson 1:28 ... that you say you're going to keep to yourself, the next time you say you're going to do something, you have less faith in the fact that you're going to do it.

Petr Ludwig 1:34 Exactly. And the, the main, main idea about procrastination is that procrastination is not a time management problem, but it's emotional management problem. So basically, the more you fail, the more you have negative emotions, and then the more you fail, fail in the future. So it's like a feedback loop that reinforce itself. So the more you procrastinate, the more you procrastinate.

Chris Williamson 1:57 Oh, no.

Petr Ludwig 1:57 That's why it's so, so, uh, dangerous and, uh, I think that it's, it's a, um, main topic for 21st century. Basically, everyone is procrastinating and we see, uh, that it's, it, it's much worse than it was, like, 10, uh, years ago because we have social media, we are overwhelmed, uh, at work by so many emails priorities. So I really believe this, that, uh, to know how to fight procrastination is a key skill for not just to have a successful life, but to have a, like, happy life and calm life and not to be crazy.

Chris Williamson 2:34 I love it, man. Wait, like, where do we-

Petr Ludwig 2:35 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 2:35 ... where do we start then? We want to not procrastinate. We want to be able to do the things we say that we are going to do to ourselves. Where do we begin looking at procrastination?

Petr Ludwig 2:45 Yeah, uh, in my book I have, uh, like, three chapters and first chapter is about motivation, how to find long-term intrinsic motivation. And still I believe that this first chapter is, is the key to understand why you procrastinate because, uh, if you have right motivation, if you truly believe in what we are doing, if we see a meaning in that, then, uh, it's much easier to push ourself. The second, uh, chapter is about willpower, but willpower is, is just a, a little helper but it's not the key for, uh, procrastination because if you have strong willpower and you are pushing yourself to things that are meaningless to you, then at the end, you don't feel good. So first motivation and then willpower. I know a lot of people that they have strong willpowers and they are working on projects, they don't procrastinate, but, uh, they are w- working on project that they are not meaningful to them. So, uh, strong willpower can backfire. And so first, intrinsic motivation and then, uh, willpower. And the third chapter is about how to overcome failures and how to get back on track when you, uh, somehow fail or if you experience some, like, tough, tough, uh, moments in your life, so how to get back on, on, on track.

Chris Williamson 4:04 Got you. So meaning. How do we find meaning? How do we ensure-

Petr Ludwig 4:07 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 4:07 ... the things that we're doing are meaningful?

Petr Ludwig 4:09 Wow. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 4:09 No, no, no small question.

Petr Ludwig 4:10 (clears throat) Yep. Basically I, I probably read all scientific papers about purpose at work, about meaning and, uh, the key to understand this topic is to really know your strengths and use your strengths doing something, uh, greater than you. So not to be just selfish but ask yourself how you can, uh, use your strengths to do, do a, a s- something meaningful to, to others. How to improve, uh, communities that you are part of, how to somehow slowly, uh, improve the world and so on. So using your strengths for others is, uh, is s- it seems that it's the key for long term intrinsic motivation.

Chris Williamson 4:55 Interesting.

Petr Ludwig 4:55 So basically, those people that are just selfish and, uh, if you just want to have, uh, more money or if you want to, uh, be, uh, higher on, uh, on a corporate ladder, that's not the right motivation because then you are still empty because, uh, you are just self-serving to yourself.

Chris Williamson 5:15 Well, a lot of people might say, "I'm at university," or, "I'm, I'm doing a degree of some kind," or, "I'm studying. I want this degree."

Petr Ludwig 5:24 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 5:24 "Sometimes work feels a little bit like a, a drain but I want, I want this law degree, this doctorate degree, this marketing degree," whatever it might be. Um, "But yet when it's exam time, I still sit down at my desk and I get distracted."

Petr Ludwig 5:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 5:37 "I don't do the things." Eh, what's happening there with meaning and, and procrastination? How do those two link in?

Petr Ludwig 5:43 Right. Uh, I do a lot of, uh, projects with students too and it's a huge difference if you are studying just because of the, uh, of the degree at the end or if you are studying because you really want to understand the law and then, uh, help others or, uh, be a good lawyer. So, uh-Intrinsic motivation is always about, uh, purpose, long-term purpose. But extrinsic motivation is about goals. So, and if you read a lot of motivational books, uh, they tell you to set goals. And I really don't believe in goals because it seems that if you have a goal, uh, then, uh, okay, it motivates you, but when you reach the goal, you experience what is called a hedonic adaptation. Yeah, you get used to, uh, that goal, uh, very quickly. So, uh, there was a s- study and it seems that, um, like the positive emotion after you, uh, finish your university or if you get, get a degree, it's only few, f- few hours, maybe few days, but then you are empty again. So, this is You've studied ...

Chris Williamson 6:53 ... just the pitfall. Potentially studied for five years for-

Petr Ludwig 6:56 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 6:56 ... for a couple of hours of satisfaction. (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 6:59 And, and, and, in, in psychology they call it hedonic adaptation and it seems that we, uh, adaptate also on the biggest, uh, things. Like if you win a Noble Prize or if you win a gold Olympic medal, still the, the happiness, the lifespan of the, of the happiness is one week or less.

Chris Williamson 7:19 Shit.

Petr Ludwig 7:20 So I have a friend and I had her in podcast and she, she was a gold Olympic medal winner. And what she told me was that after she won, won the medal, then the next few days were crazy happy and then she was empty. Like, "And now what? I win the Olympics, so what's the next step?" So ...

Chris Williamson 7:44 What's the alternative then? So what's the alternative? If we're not setting goals, what are we doing?

Petr Ludwig 7:48 Yeah. In, in my book I describe two kinds of intrinsic motivation. One is intrinsic motivation on goals and the second is intrinsic motivation by, by, uh, by journey, focusing on path rather than the destination. It's the old saying, uh, uh, that the path is much more important than the destination is. But it seems that the recent psychology really uncovered that it works like that. So basically what we want is to be in a state of flow. If you're doing something and you enjoy the process, then you reach even more goals. If you are just focusing on goals and you don't enjoy the process, at the end it's much worse. So, and I have a great example of one of top hockey players and they made an interview with him and they asked him, like, "What is the core of your motivation?" His name is Jaromir Jagr. He's one of top NHL players. And the answer was that his motivation is that he loved the process, he loved trainings, he loved playing hockey. And if he loves playing hockey, at the end he's winning medals. And it's not about medals, it's about the journey more than about the destination. So I truly believe in, in this. So basically if you love the process, you don't procrastinate doing those things because you already love the process.

Chris Williamson 9:17 Mm.

Petr Ludwig 9:17 So that's why I'm focusing on a project that I really enjoy doing and at the end you don't procrastinate it.

Chris Williamson 9:28 How do people who perhaps don't have as much degrees of freedom to change-

Petr Ludwig 9:34 Right.

Chris Williamson 9:35 ... what they want to do, you know, does-

Petr Ludwig 9:37 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 9:37 Everybody's got to do their car insurance-

Petr Ludwig 9:39 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 9:39 ... or file their taxes, you know? We can't find meaning in everything. So is the rule to find meaning where we can and then is there an alternative strategy for in the things like the taking the bins out, the filing the taxes? What do we do there?

Petr Ludwig 9:54 Right. Right. Uh, I really don't like the saying, like, do what you love. Because if you are telling people do what you love, at the end they don't know what they love. So basically I'm telling, like, love what you do. So for the... In the beginning, you should try to find passion in things that you are already doing and there is a lot of science behind it. It's research from Emile Rzeźnicki from Yale University and he calls this process job crafting. Basically it's about to ask yourself, like, what is your strengths and how you can use those strengths on a daily basis? Or there's the meaning of your work, how you can increase the meaning, so how you can serve your clients even more, how you can do some little things that can help your colleagues, can make them happy and so on and so on. So there's a process how to craft your career, craft your daily working routine and if you change this mindset about your work, at the end you enjoy your work much more. So even though in the beginning you don't like what you're doing, at the end you can do the same job but with a different mindset. So it's more about mindset than about the real work.

Chris Williamson 11:14 I understand. I think one of the things that's interesting is when someone is on a path to a higher purpose for themselves, that might be be an amazing brother, mother, father, you know, son or daughter to someone, it might be to do with contributing to their community or it might be becoming the best athlete that they can become.

Petr Ludwig 11:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:36 All of the other things fall in line to be in service to that, right?

Petr Ludwig 11:40 Right.

Chris Williamson 11:40 If you have to have the job that pays the wage so that you can take three weeks off a year to go and race bicycling in France or whatever it might be, you're happy to go to work because you're like, "Look-"... I feel like my-

Petr Ludwig 11:55 Great. Go on.

Chris Williamson 11:55 ... higher calling is this sport-

Petr Ludwig 11:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 11:57 ... and this, all the, the hours at work, like, cool, I'm just gonna do it. I'm gonna get through it. But y- you're right, like, I think a lot of people struggle with purpose and meaning because they're just spinning the wheels. They don't actually know what the reason is-

Petr Ludwig 12:10 Yep.

Chris Williamson 12:10 ... for them doing the thing.

Petr Ludwig 12:12 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:13 Um, and we, we recently had a, a couple of f- uh, podcasts that have touched on this as well, but explore versus exploit being one of those-

Petr Ludwig 12:21 Right.

Chris Williamson 12:21 ... paradigms is really important, right?

Petr Ludwig 12:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:22 In the beginning try all the different things. Greg Mckeown from Essentialism was on talking about this.

Petr Ludwig 12:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:28 All the different things that you can do. What, do I like this? No. Do I like this?

Petr Ludwig 12:32 Yes.

Chris Williamson 12:32 No. Do I like this? Yeah, it's all right.

Petr Ludwig 12:33 Exactly, yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:34 Yeah, it's okay. It's okay. And then eventually you find something that actually is the reason that you are here. And that might change over time, but just find something-

Petr Ludwig 12:42 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 12:42 ... that allows you to transcend the challenge.

Petr Ludwig 12:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:44 So, okay, I like, I like the, the meaning and, and, and stuff like that.

Petr Ludwig 12:48 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 12:48 Moving on to willpower, what do, what do we know about willpower? How can we utilize willpower for, uh, reducing our procrastination?

Petr Ludwig 12:54 Yeah, it seems that willpower can be trained in the long term. So, basically, uh, they made some research on identical twins and it seems that one of those twins, if they are, uh, raised in different families, can have strong willpower and the second can have, uh, very weak willpower. So it seems that it's not that much inborn. Basically, okay, it's inborn f- um, for, let's say, 30, 40%, but those 60, 70% are in your hands. So that's a good news. And the best way how to train, uh, your willpower is really to exercise. Basically we have one will- willpower for all domains, so if you do, like, 20 push-ups daily, uh, and if I scan your brain on a fMRI, uh, what we can see is not that just your muscles are growing in the long term, but also your prefrontal cortex, th- th- this part of the brain that is, uh, evolved for, for will- willpower. So, the good news is with, uh, regular exercise you can really improve your will- willpower and if you have stronger willpower, uh, from, from d- doing exercise then you can, uh, you can use this stronger willpower at your work, i- in your relationship and so on. So this is th- the first way how to boost your willpower, to exercise daily.

Chris Williamson 14:05 Physical exercise.

Petr Ludwig 14:06 Physical exercise, right. And the second, uh, way how to improve your willpower is, uh, to manage better your emotions. So, mindfulness techniques can really, uh, boost your productivity. There was a, a scientific study like one or two years ago and they linked mindfulness w- with, with, uh, willpower, with procrastination. And basically the outcome of the study was that, uh, the more you meditate, the stronger your, your willpower is. So it's a good news. So, to, to boost your willpower you just need to, uh, spend 10 minutes alone, uh, daily and do some mindfulness techniques and, uh, be able to, uh, self-regulate better and be able to, uh, overcome some bad emotions w- with, uh, calmness.

Chris Williamson 14:54 Mm.

Chris Williamson 14:55 It's interesting, as we're talking about this, like, a lot of what some of the listeners might have expected as we were talking about how to overcome procrastination in 2020, it would have been, um, a bunch of hacks. Like, oh, uh, this particular, use RescueTime on your MacBook and keep your phone outside of your bedroom and do-

Petr Ludwig 15:12 No. No.

Chris Williamson 15:12 ... this and do that and do the other. We're, we're going more high level than that, right?

Petr Ludwig 15:17 Right. Because (laughs) that's the only way how to solve procrastination. I think that, uh, procrastination is, is like a r- red blinking light and it's telling you you don't have the right motivation, you don't see purpose into your work, or y- y- you don't have, uh, a strong willpower. It's, it's, it's not about, uh, installing a new app. Come on, like... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:40 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 15:41 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 15:41 Yeah, no, but t- the fact of the matter is that we are told-

Petr Ludwig 15:46 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:46 ... in this gig economy with constant new courses being released or a new application or this MacBook or whatever it might be, that that is the tool, right? That that is the thing which is going-

Petr Ludwig 15:58 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 15:59 ... to fix it. And it seems like that's just the icing on top of the cake.

Petr Ludwig 16:03 Yep. Yep. Uh, I, I truly believe that, uh, the solution, it's m- it's much, much deeper. For example, there was another interesting study and the study was about self-forgiveness. And it, it seems that, uh, if you are able to forgive yourself after you fail, then you procrastinate less.

Chris Williamson 16:23 Ooh, that's really interesting.

Petr Ludwig 16:23 And, uh, the idea behind that is that, uh, if you are unable to for- uh, to do self-forgiveness to, mm, then, then you have much more negative emotions and it can backfire again. So, sometimes when you fail you're, uh, it's not about failure th- that much, it's about your mindset about the failure. And if you are able to for- forgive yourself and if you are fine with that and you are okay, uh, I was able to run, uh, for two weeks and now I failed. Just forgive yourself and start again and, uh, th- that's why self-forgiveness is one of, uh, those hacks how to, uh, decrease your procrastination. And it's very counterintuitive. Um, be nice to yourself, be-

Chris Williamson 17:10 To accept yourself for not achieving the thing you said you were going to do.

Petr Ludwig 17:14 Right. So it's j- just the, the opposite what you should expect.

Chris Williamson 17:18 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 17:18 So, uh, we often think that those people that they are, uh, hard to themself, they procrastinate less, but that's not truth, because they are in even worse situation. Because they're, they're hard to themself, but at the end, they have much more negative emotions when they fail and that, uh, failure, uh, pains themself like, uh, three times more than if they are able to forgive.

Chris Williamson 17:42 Mm.

Chris Williamson 17:43 You, you're right. I can see, I know a, a ton of buddies who will be listening-

Petr Ludwig 17:49 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 17:50 ... that will lambast themselves, the, the self-flagellation, right? They'll-

Petr Ludwig 17:54 Right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 17:54 They'll whip themselves into wanting to do more because it's easy to think that that's the solution.

Petr Ludwig 18:00 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 18:00 I didn't do enough. I need to lean into this even moreso. But...... what we were talking about at the beginning. I love this idea of having trust in your own word, like being able to-

Petr Ludwig 18:10 Uh-huh.

Chris Williamson 18:10 ... keep promises to yourself. Like, if you trust that you're going to keep a promise to yourself and you break it, you don't make it better by telling yourself, "Oh, you're such an idiot." Like, "You need to do better next time."

Petr Ludwig 18:22 Right. Yeah, yeah. With this-

Chris Williamson 18:22 What do you do? Like, think about what happens with a friend. You and a friend get into an argument-

Petr Ludwig 18:27 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 18:27 ... they're a dick or you're a dick, or you're both dicks or whatever it might be.

Petr Ludwig 18:31 Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Williamson 18:31 Um, you say, "Hey man, look, I'm sorry. Let's go for a coffee. Uh, let's put that behind us. Let's move on."

Petr Ludwig 18:38 Exactly, yeah, yeah. And that, and you- you need, uh, a self-esteem to be productive. So if you are undermining yourself, then at the end, uh, you don't trust in yourself and you have much higher risk to fail again.

Chris Williamson 18:54 I think-

Petr Ludwig 18:54 So it's much wiser to be nice to yourself.

Chris Williamson 18:56 Yeah, I mean, Jordan Peterson befriends, uh, treat yourself as if you are someone you are responsible for helping.

Petr Ludwig 19:02 Exactly, exactly. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:02 It's- it's such a wonderful worldview, but it's so hard, right? Especially if you- you want to be driven, type A personality, you wanna do the- the work and- and be as good as you can. It's a slippery slope to go from-

Petr Ludwig 19:15 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 19:15 ... um, thinking, "I am able to accept when I don't meet my own standards," to, "I am simply allowing myself to be lazy, I am allowing myself..." And that line, right?

Petr Ludwig 19:26 Right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 19:27 Finding where that line is, is difficult.

Petr Ludwig 19:28 Mm-hmm. Yep. And I- I have a great tool for that because, uh, I told myself this year to only work, uh, four- four days in a week. So I have one day off and basically, uh, in that day, I'm much more productive because I don't have to be productive. So and for me it's- it's- it's the best day in a week because, uh, I don't plan anything, so I don't have meetings, I don't have webinars. It's just, uh, it's just a free day. But I wake up, then I'm like, doing some unimportant things and then I'm like, "Okay, what's the most important thing to do now?" And basically in- in that day, I'm working on the most important projects and I- I love it because I don't have to. So it- it's- it's, uh, just the opposite motivation, uh, to- to compare to other days when I had to. If I had a meeting, I have to be there. But, uh, that day I also can have a meeting, but I really want to have that meeting. So it's- it's just the opposite mindset and I really recommend this, uh, like tool or hack to- to all my clients because, uh, it's an investment into your, uh, mental health.

Chris Williamson 20:46 Well, I mean, isn't it Google that gives its employees 20% of their time to work on whatever they want to do?

Petr Ludwig 20:53 I think that they used to do that. Now they cancel this rule, but, uh, they had this rule in the beginning of Goo- Goo- of Google. Now they don't have this rule anymore, but- but for me-

Chris Williamson 21:04 That's a shame. Sergei, what are you doing? Listen to us.

Petr Ludwig 21:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:06 We're talking about procrastination.

Petr Ludwig 21:08 Yeah, and, uh, I- I come up to- to, well, to the- to the idea when I go on a holiday, I always book one day before a holiday, like holiday before a holiday.

Chris Williamson 21:22 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 21:22 And then I book one more day after the holiday, like holiday after holiday. And if you have this like, um, bump-

Chris Williamson 21:30 Bumper plates, yeah, yeah.

Petr Ludwig 21:32 Yeah, it works much better because you are not in- in- in that, uh, high level of stress that tomorrow I have to go for a vacation.

Chris Williamson 21:40 (laughs) Man, feel it. Like I- I travel quite a bit, or at least I used to before there was a pandemic, um...

Petr Ludwig 21:46 Right. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 21:46 And, um, I think I went on like 10, 10 or 12 holidays last year and the number of times where one of my housemates will say to me, "Hey man, like you all, you all set for tomorrow?" I'll be like, "Oh dude, no, I've got so much to do before I can even think about leaving tomorrow. Like, I got to go do this and prep the podcast and do this, that and the other." And, um, you're totally correct. Like you, so much of our enjoyment in life comes from the anticipating of things. We are anticipatory beings, right?

Petr Ludwig 22:14 Right, yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:14 We, in fact- in fact, there's some fairly good research that shows we enjoy the anticipation of something more than the thing itself, which is-

Petr Ludwig 22:20 Right.

Chris Williamson 22:20 ... which is super, super interesting.

Petr Ludwig 22:22 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 22:22 But like, I ruin that. I ruin a big chunk of that because I work right up until the limit.

Petr Ludwig 22:29 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 22:29 Like I remember- I remember sometimes I would get like an early morning flight and I would pull an all-nighter before the flight on holiday. And then obviously like the first day of my holiday was just a complete like wreck.

Petr Ludwig 22:42 Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 22:42 It was total chaos trying to recover from the day that allowed me to go on holiday.

Petr Ludwig 22:47 Yep. And I have another example of that is Japan. I go to Japan every year for one month and I do nothing there. It's- it's just my like empty- empty month. I'm not writing a book there, I'm not working on new projects, I'm just there. And it's an investment because the months after I'm back from Japan, I am like three times more productive because you restart everything in your brain, you restart your willpower again, you- you- you are back, uh- uh, in- in the moods that you- you- you are able to do things because you- you- your brain is restarted. So I really recommend to have long holidays, to really do nothing for three- three, four weeks and at the end, uh, you are much more productive. So if you sum the whole productivity of the year, it's bigger altogether even though you spend one month doing nothing. So this- this is, this was the best for my productivity and for my procrastination, not being in Japan.

Chris Williamson 23:52 How about-

Petr Ludwig 23:52 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 23:53 How about people who have concerns that they might fall out of a, um, good habits whilst they're away? So they go to Japan or Texas or Romania or wherever it is for a month and they just, they're getting up whenever they want and they're not- they're not in the rhythm of training or working or doing whatever and they're scared that when they get back, they're not going to have that routine and it's gonna, they- they're just gonna, all the habits are gonna be out the window.

Petr Ludwig 24:20 ... yeah, then you have to ask why you want to have those routines. And often, you want routines because you don't have willpower to push yourself to do things. And if you spend one month alone, then you have much stronger willpower, so then you don't need routines that much. So, the answer is that after you are back, it, y- you are doing everything much, uh, easier and, uh, everything is very easy after being, uh, back fr- from su- such a long holiday. And the second very important argument for, for this is that, uh, I'm entrepreneur. I have 35 employees and I, mm, do business for, let's say, 14, 15 years now. And for me, uh, this is the definition of the freedom, to be able to spend one month alone and not to be a slave in your own company. So, I really had to change many things and m- many, m- many, uh, processes in my company to make the company ready for me to not be there. And when I moved to the US, because, uh, I moved to the US, uh, two, two months, uh, t- two years ago, uh, at the end, the company was ready for me to not to be there. And, uh, that was the best in my life because now I'm very free. I can do whatever I want, and the company works, uh, without me. So-

Chris Williamson 25:45 Have you read The E-Myth, The Entrepreneur's Myth, the book?

Petr Ludwig 25:48 N- no, no.

Chris Williamson 25:49 Okay. So, in that they talk about the fact that if you have a business or if you're a business owner and you can't leave that business for more than two weeks without everything breaking, you don't have a business.

Petr Ludwig 26:04 Mm-hmm. Right.

Chris Williamson 26:04 You've, you just have-

Petr Ludwig 26:05 Oh, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:05 ... you have a highly leveraged job.

Petr Ludwig 26:06 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 26:06 You'd love, you'd love that book, man.

Petr Ludwig 26:08 Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 26:08 The E-Myth, yeah, it's, it's, it's a, it's fantastic. Um, so okay, we've got the fact that we need purpose and meaning. We need to find that. We're getting that through explore and exploit while also trying to connect to a higher purpose.

Petr Ludwig 26:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:20 That higher purpose also tends to be serving other people, transcending ourselves, peop- uh-

Petr Ludwig 26:25 Right.

Chris Williamson 26:26 ... the listeners who heard my most recent episode with Scott Barry Kaufman on his book Transcend, which is all about Maslow's hierarchy of needs-

Petr Ludwig 26:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 26:33 ... they'll know that already. Um, and after that, we're talking about willpower. We know that willpower ebbs and flows and it can be trained, that we need to do physical exercise. And what was the second thing that we need to do?

Petr Ludwig 26:46 Mindfulness.

Chris Williamson 26:46 Mindfulness.

Petr Ludwig 26:47 T- to regulate your emotions.

Chris Williamson 26:49 Cool. Okay.

Petr Ludwig 26:49 Because as I said in the beginning, procrastination is emotional problem rather than time management problem.

Chris Williamson 26:54 I love it. Um, before we move on from willpower, what side of the fence do you sit on about whether or not you get willpower depletion through the day or not?

Petr Ludwig 27:04 Yeah, basically, I believe in depletion because, uh, I, my experience is whenever I'm tired, it's much more difficult to push myself to do things. And whenever I'm tired, I procrastinate, uh, much more and, uh, it's easier to me to, uh, drink beers and so on. So, I believe in depletion during the day, but I truly believe that, uh, you can overcome the depletion w- with small rests d- during the day. So basically, sometimes I'm m- I- I'm, uh, tired and then I have a big talk for, let's say, 500 people, and at the end of the talk, I have, uh, new energy and, uh, I'm able to restart everything. And, uh, I truly believe that working on projects that are meaningful, uh, are not draining your energy, but they give, uh, they give you the energy. So, that's why, uh, if you procrastinate, at the end you, are empty, but if you are working on mea- meaningful projects, at the end you will have even more energy than, uh, at the beginning.

Chris Williamson 28:12 That's the problem I have when I do this podcast-

Petr Ludwig 28:14 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:14 ... because I'm often recording with people in America.

Petr Ludwig 28:16 Exactly.

Chris Williamson 28:17 And that-

Petr Ludwig 28:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:17 ... that recording time tends to be about-

Petr Ludwig 28:19 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:19 ... 6:00 or 7:00 PM at night. And then I've got to try and wind down, and I'm going to bed at like 10:00-

Petr Ludwig 28:24 Yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 28:24 ... and my mind's still buzzing. Yeah, exactly, about all of the cool stuff we've just talked about. So yeah, I, I get that a lot. The reason that I wanted to ask, some of the listeners who haven't delved into the ongoing internet battle that is, is ego depletion true or is it not? There does seem to be this constant, like, first Roy Baumeister does a study and then you say yes, and then there's someone else who says no, and then it's yes and no. And it's just like-

Petr Ludwig 28:49 Yup.

Chris Williamson 28:49 ... like trends with is it cool to have skinny jeans or loose jeans?

Petr Ludwig 28:52 (laughs) Yeah.

Chris Williamson 28:53 Or is it cool to wear like a sleeveless T-shirt or a T-shirt with sleeves? Uh, do you know what I mean?

Petr Ludwig 28:57 Yeah, but I truly believe that both sides are right, because, uh, sometimes it's, uh, depleting, but sometimes not. So, I, I, I believe that, uh, if you read all those arguments, it's not like, uh, black or white. I think that the truth is, again, somewhere in the middle. Yeah. So, it's possibly be both.

Chris Williamson 29:18 Yeah. The, the funniest, uh, the funniest argument that I've heard so far for ego depletion is ego depletion exists if you believe it exists.

Petr Ludwig 29:27 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:28 Have you heard that one?

Petr Ludwig 29:29 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 29:29 Yeah, s-

Petr Ludwig 29:30 It can be like that.

Chris Williamson 29:30 So I'm like-

Petr Ludwig 29:31 Yep, and it can be like that, yeah. (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:32 ... "Fuck." Like, "I, what do I need to... Can I unlearn, can I unlearn the word ego depletion?"

Petr Ludwig 29:37 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 29:37 Um, so yeah, I, I don't know, man. Okay, so that's two chapters down. Third chapter.

Petr Ludwig 29:43 Uh, third chapter w- was about, uh, handling failure. And I truly believe in some, uh, like, deep experiences and, uh, I want to explain you more in detail what, uh, those experiences are. Uh, I have two examples that I experienced something that is called near-death experience. First was that, uh, I was like 19 years old and I was playing basketball, and I had some, like, brain of, um, kind of paralysis. And after a few hours, right side of my, my body was completely paralyzed. And, uh-

Chris Williamson 30:19 Holy shit.

Petr Ludwig 30:20 ... it was the first situation in my life that I was, uh, experiencing the situation when you...... realist thing that you can die. And-

Chris Williamson 30:29 Fuck.

Petr Ludwig 30:29 ... it was fucking scary.

Chris Williamson 30:31 (laughs) That's so bad.

Petr Ludwig 30:31 But, uh, it really changed my, my, my values. It was very humbling experience. So, um, I was in the hospital, I was thinking that's, that's end of my life. But at the end, uh, I survived that after a few days without any side, side harm, si- side effects. So, basically tu- it was the best, uh, experience because since then, I'm thinking slightly differently about, uh, what is meaningful or what's not. So, for example, during the pandemic, uh, I only saw one, uh, film on my Netflix, only one because-

Chris Williamson 31:08 What was the film?

Petr Ludwig 31:09 ... I really don't want to w- waste my time.

Chris Williamson 31:11 What did you watch? What was the film?

Petr Ludwig 31:13 Uh, it, it was series about Donald Trump and I only saw-

Chris Williamson 31:17 Oh, was it the American Dream thing?

Petr Ludwig 31:19 Yeah, it was. It was.

Chris Williamson 31:19 That's good.

Petr Ludwig 31:20 And it was- (laughs)

Chris Williamson 31:20 That is pretty good. That's worth, that's a worthwhile series to watch.

Petr Ludwig 31:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs) So, and, um, and after the beginning of the pandemic, uh, I switched everything and I was wor- working on a, on a project, Masks4All, to help as many people as possible to wear a face mask, and so on. So I switched my focus from procrastination to face masks from one day to another. So I spent like three weeks in a row, every day, like 12 hours, uh, doing on that project.

Chris Williamson 31:48 Wow.

Petr Ludwig 31:48 So, and it was very meaningful, so I, I w- was not procrastinating. I remember when I, uh, got a number, a, uh, telephone number for, for one lady that is o- one of top executives from, uh, WHO, and I called her directly because I didn't procrastinate that because I was in, like, "Okay, if I procrastinate, uh, there are people dying." So, it, it, it was, uh, the most fulfilling, uh, period in my life, the beginning of the pandemic.

Chris Williamson 32:14 Wow, that's so good. I, I, I watched, um... I'm gonna give you a, a potential second thing to watch on Netflix during the-

Petr Ludwig 32:22 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:22 ... during the pandemic.

Petr Ludwig 32:24 Okay.

Chris Williamson 32:24 And the guys from Vox have done a series called Explained, and it's mini, mini documentaries around about 20 minutes long, and they've done one on the coronavirus, and it's three parts.

Petr Ludwig 32:35 Okay.

Chris Williamson 32:35 And the first part explains how a virus works, it talks about sort of the biology of what viruses are.

Petr Ludwig 32:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 32:42 Um, and then the second one talks about the implications, I think more nationally and internationally. And then the final one talks about what vaccines are and how vaccines work. And dude, like-

Petr Ludwig 32:53 Okay, cool.

Chris Williamson 32:53 ... when you look, I think, there's about 70 to 100 vaccines that are the front runners, and there's maybe two or three that are really at the f- at the, uh, the-

Petr Ludwig 33:03 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 33:03 ... um, highest likelihood of this. And when you s- see the epidemiologists and the virologists and the vaccine creators in their labs, these people are living, eating, sleeping, everything-

Petr Ludwig 33:16 Yep.

Chris Williamson 33:16 ... in their laboratory.

Petr Ludwig 33:17 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 33:17 They're not, they're not having problems with procrastination.

Petr Ludwig 33:20 Right.

Chris Williamson 33:20 You know?

Petr Ludwig 33:20 Yeah, because they're doing something meaningful and they're re- using their strengths, so it's just-

Chris Williamson 33:25 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 33:25 ... interconnected. And-

Chris Williamson 33:26 What was the second, what was the second story?

Petr Ludwig 33:28 Yeah, yeah, uh, the second story was that, uh, it was 2015 and I had a flight from Amsterdam to Prague, and after the takeoff, after, like 15 minutes after the takeoff, our right engine blew up and there was fire, and yeah, you really don't want to-

Chris Williamson 33:44 Holy fucking-

Petr Ludwig 33:44 ... experience that during your flight, but I experienced something, uh, terrible. And, uh, we had to, uh, perform emergency landing. So, the thing that they are telling you in the beginning, like, uh, "Put your head in front, uh, between your, uh, knees." And so on-

Chris Williamson 34:01 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 34:01 ... I really experienced that-

Chris Williamson 34:03 Oh, my God.

Petr Ludwig 34:03 ... in, in person. So, and it was terrible because I was sitting just next to the engine, so th- the guy, uh, um, next to me told me, like, "Look, there is fire." And I was like, "No, I don't wanna see that."

Chris Williamson 34:15 (laughs) Don't remind me, mate, all right? Chill out.

Petr Ludwig 34:17 And, uh, it took us around, like, 15, 20 minutes to, uh, to, to land. And those were, like, the longest 15, 20 minutes in my life.

Chris Williamson 34:28 Did you land at an airport?

Petr Ludwig 34:30 Uh, yeah, we, we get back to the, uh, Amsterdam, to, to, to Amsterdam, uh, airport.

Chris Williamson 34:35 Shit.

Petr Ludwig 34:36 But, but only with one engine, and, uh-

Chris Williamson 34:39 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 34:39 ... the airplane was shaking and it was, uh, very noisy-

Chris Williamson 34:42 'Cause Am-

Petr Ludwig 34:43 So it was like (imitates plane shaking) .

Chris Williamson 34:43 Amsterdam to Prague will be a small plane. It's not a big 747, right?

Petr Ludwig 34:48 No, it, it, it wa- it wa- it was ju- just the, the, the s- standard size plane, like, the, the normal one.

Chris Williamson 34:54 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 34:55 But it was quite scary and when we landed, uh, a few people are crying there, and we were hugging each other. And the, uh, the pilot, uh, he, he went outside of his cockpit and he shake the hand with all passengers. And it was very strong experience. And again, um, if you experience something like that, at the end, uh, it's very humbling. Since then, I'm, like, thinking, "Okay, like, uh, how to really invest my time wisely? What are those main things to do?" And I doesn't wanna, I want to waste my time with social media, for example, because it's, it's mostly meaningless. You're just consuming things, but you're not creating and so on. So, uh, I think that the coronavirus is similar to those two, uh, stories from my life because, uh, we were all in the similar situation. We were i- in danger of pandemic. And, uh, I want the coronavirus to be similar to those two, uh, near-death experiences of myself for the whole society. And I truly believe that we can change because the, the old w- world had many problems, yeah? So I truly believe that we need some changes in societies around the world. Like, we are m- many societies are divided, uh, many people are working, uh, on projects that they don't believe, so th- there is a huge lack of meaning at work. And, uh-... kindness is, is not a virtue for, for m-many people, so I really believe that this, this situation can change, uh, things.

Chris Williamson 36:34 Man, I,

Chris Williamson 36:35 I couldn't agree more. There's a, a ton of quotes and, and thinkers that I've been, uh-

Petr Ludwig 36:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:39 ... referring to recently, one of them being Naval Ravikant, and he says, "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes." And that touches on the social media thing, like what's the prize?

Petr Ludwig 36:47 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 36:47 What's the prize for always checking your Instagram three times a day? Like, you don't get-

Petr Ludwig 36:51 Yep.

Chris Williamson 36:51 ... anything for that. You just-

Petr Ludwig 36:53 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 36:53 ... satisfy yourself. There's this quote-

Petr Ludwig 36:54 Yep.

Chris Williamson 36:54 ... from, uh, Jean-Paul Sartre here that I've got. "It is our duty to risk the easy and commonplace for the unique and great, to work toward our full potential in the face of all obstacles, including ourselves, to take responsibility for our life and what we make of it. Ultimately, no matter what we do or say or believe, there will always be a great many who disagree, or judge, or ridicule, or become upset by our decisions. But it is of essential importance that we try as often as possible to ensure that among these people, ourself is not one of them."

Petr Ludwig 37:26 Huh. Man-

Chris Williamson 37:27 That's it, man. That's it.

Petr Ludwig 37:28 Incredible. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 37:30 I love it.

Petr Ludwig 37:30 And I truly believe that we are all on the same boat, because, uh, we are all global citizens. And, uh, I have experience living in Europe, in the US, in, in Asia, in Japan, and so what I feel is that we are all the same. We have all the same Instagrams, we have the similar struggles. The virus basically was everywhere. So now we know that we are on the same boat, so why not to cooperate more? Why, why not to be more, uh, collaborative as, uh, as m- mankind? Because we are divided by so many stupid things.

Chris Williamson 38:05 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 38:06 Ugh.

Chris Williamson 38:06 Man, a- again, it just, it's so counter to, I think, innately what we feel we should do, because maybe a little bit of social norms, you see these guys crushing it, always working hard-

Petr Ludwig 38:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:20 ... type A mentality. Me with my Rolex, me with my fast car, me with my big house.

Petr Ludwig 38:24 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:24 Um, but every single person that I know that is well-respected within the field of evolutionary-

Petr Ludwig 38:30 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 38:30 ... psychology or, uh, cognitive, uh, psychology or leadership or o- organizational psych- e- everything. Everyone says that the best way to improve your life is to improve other people's lives. And it's like-

Petr Ludwig 38:43 Right.

Chris Williamson 38:43 ... there, there's not some big fucking conspiracy going on here.

Petr Ludwig 38:46 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 38:46 There's not, there's not like some Masonic-

Petr Ludwig 38:49 Right.

Chris Williamson 38:50 ... lodge hiding with big cloaks over their heads-

Petr Ludwig 38:52 Let's go.

Chris Williamson 38:52 ... in a darkened room with a big pentagram on the floor saying, "We need to get everyone to think that they need to work with each other so it makes-

Petr Ludwig 38:59 No.

Chris Williamson 38:59 ... it easier for everyone else." That's not the way it is. All of you guys-

Petr Ludwig 39:02 No.

Chris Williamson 39:02 ... everyone that is an expert in this field is-

Petr Ludwig 39:04 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 39:04 ... converging on the same outcome, because-

Petr Ludwig 39:08 Right.

Chris Williamson 39:08 ... there is truth in it.

Petr Ludwig 39:09 Yeah. And I truly believe that we have only one enemy, and that's our ego. Because, uh, if you have a big ego, like if you are egoistic and you, if you think about yourself, then it's very difficult for you to help others, because you are only thinking about yourself. So humbleness, in my world, is, uh, the key, uh, antidote for, for the ego. So basically, those, uh, near-death experiences or those difficult moments, uh, those humbling experiences then help you to help others more. Because then you understand that the world isn't, is not about yourself, it's more about others. Because if you are, if, if you die, well, th- the life continues without you, so that's why you should help others and improve the society, because it, uh, you live your life after in those people, so-

Chris Williamson 40:05 That's your legacy, right?

Petr Ludwig 40:06 It's your legacy. It, and s- it's your immortality if, if, if you are self- selfless. So being-

Chris Williamson 40:13 How do you-

Petr Ludwig 40:13 ... selfish, selfish is, is, is, uh, v- very, uh, how, how, how to describe it?

Chris Williamson 40:21 Destructive?

Petr Ludwig 40:21 Like being selfish is, is, is, is, um, not that wise, let's say.

Chris Williamson 40:26 (laughs) Okay, cool.

Petr Ludwig 40:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 40:28 How do you, um, how do you have, how do you hold in reality at the same time the fact that-

Petr Ludwig 40:33 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:33 ... humbleness is a virtue which helps you to remove the ego-

Petr Ludwig 40:36 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 40:36 ... which is bad for you, but you need to be able to have pride in doing things well to encourage you to continue to do things well? How do you hold those two things together?

Petr Ludwig 40:45 I truly believe that it's not one or another, but you can have both. You can be, like, healthy egoistic, like focusing on others, but being able to say no, being able to have your, uh, private room, uh, that you are able to, uh, have your time for yourself and so on. So basically, if y- you are too selfless, for example, those mothers that they are only investing their time in, in their kids and they are, uh, they don't have their, uh, hobbies anymore and so on, they're not that good mothers at the end. So, uh, being, like, healthy selfish means that you invest in your, uh, health, you invest your time in, in, in, in your sleep. And at the end, if you are healthy selfish, you have energy to help others even more. So- and it's all about to have a courage to say no, because y- y- you, you have to, uh, have s- uh, time for yourself-

Chris Williamson 41:42 I understand.

Petr Ludwig 41:43 ... to help others.

Chris Williamson 41:44 Okay. So talk to us about how near-death experiences and being humble relates to failure and procrastination.

Petr Ludwig 41:51 Uh, I truly believe that everyone experience something similar. Everyone experience failure, everyone experienced, uh, some problems in their relationships and so on. And being able to, like, overcome those problems in terms of, um, like, changing your mindset about those failures is a, is a key for boosting your self-esteem for the future, and then you procrastinate less. So basically, what I advise is to, uh, do a simple, uh, exercise...... like to take a, a blank piece of paper and, uh, write down, uh, the graph of your happiness during your, your life. So for example, when you w- were, uh, when you was a kid, it was nice, then, then studies was bad, then was good again, and so on. So basically have your, like, uh, lifetime, uh, graph of your happiness. And if you are somewhere down, those are those moments that, uh, are the best in terms of, uh, if you recognize what the situation gave you, for example, in terms of your values, for example, if you ask yourself, like, how that situation shaped your values. For example, my near death experience, uh, the first one, shaped my values because since then, I don't want to waste my time. So I appreciate time much, much more than before. So even though it was, like, very unpleasant experience, at the end, it changed, uh, my life in a positive manner, in a, in a positive way. So and I truly believe that everyone has those, uh, situations and if you ask yourself how this situation, uh, helped, uh, shape your values or wha- what, what was the positive outcome of that, then, uh, you can gather some vi-, uh, some w- wisdom for the future and you have much more positive emotions and then you procrastinate less because you know that even though you fail, then you gain something, uh, positive. So you don't a- you are not afraid about failure that much.

Chris Williamson 43:56 Does that mean that traumatic experiences are better learning opportunities-

Petr Ludwig 44:01 Right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 44:01 ... than successful experiences?

Petr Ludwig 44:02 Yeah. It, it, there, there, there is a huge meta-analysis from 2009 about, uh, post-traumatic growth and it seems that, uh, if you have a traumatic event, then you can have post-traumatic, uh, PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, or you can have post-traumatic growth. Uh, and the, the key or the difference between those two people is really the mindset. So basically, there are many examples of, uh, survivals of, uh, concentration camps and at the end, they live to their 90s, 100s, and they wrote many books and they lived a, uh, many fulfi- uh, fulfilled lives, but, uh, there is also examples of many people that after, uh, they, uh, liberated those camps, they committed suicide. So and basically, uh, I truly believe that not the situation, but our mindset about the situation shapes, uh, the future for us. So even though I survived two near-death experiences-

Chris Williamson 45:08 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 45:08 ... I think that, uh, I'm very happy that I experienced those two events, even though it was so, so scary.

Chris Williamson 45:16 I know. Uh, I said this at the very beginning of the coronavirus that it's one of the few things that can unite us as a species, right? It doesn't-

Petr Ludwig 45:22 Exactly. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:23 It doesn't even rain everywhere on the planet at the same time, but I know what it feels like to be in lockdown the same as someone in Italy-

Petr Ludwig 45:28 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:29 ... the same as someone in America-

Petr Ludwig 45:30 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:30 ... the same as someone in Brazil or Wuhan, you know, I know what-

Petr Ludwig 45:33 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 45:33 I don't have the perfect, uh, but I- I'm united. I'm reading, um, Toby Ord., his book-

Petr Ludwig 45:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:39 ... his new book, The Precipice, and it's a-

Petr Ludwig 45:41 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:41 He's from the Future of Humanities Institute and it's all about existential risk. And it's like-

Petr Ludwig 45:46 Yep.

Chris Williamson 45:46 ... make no mistake about this, we are a thin veneer of surviving on top of what is, everything is trying to kill us. From natural-

Petr Ludwig 45:53 Yep.

Chris Williamson 45:53 ... risks to anthropo- uh, anthropology, anthro- whatever it is, that risk-

Petr Ludwig 45:57 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 45:58 ... to the, (laughs) uh, to future risks that are gonna come from bio-weapons-

Petr Ludwig 46:01 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:01 ... from artificial general intelligence, whatever it might be. And he-

Petr Ludwig 46:05 Yep.

Chris Williamson 46:05 This is, this guy has written, uh, 500 page, 400 page book on it from the premier existential risk department in the world and he puts our chance of surviving the next 100 years at 50%.

Petr Ludwig 46:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 46:21 Why? Like, that, that is a reason to live your life. That is a reason to try and find the most meaning, to try and be the best person that you can be. And a- again, like, when you reframe that and you realize I've spent, uh, 150 hours during lockdown watching Netflix movies that I didn't even like-

Petr Ludwig 46:37 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:38 ... it k- it does shine quite a harsh light-

Petr Ludwig 46:40 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 46:40 ... onto that. And that's not me saying I don't do it. Like, I waste my time just as much as anyone, but you know what I mean.

Petr Ludwig 46:45 No, uh, I, I have a great example. Like, when I started doing Movement Masks For All with the first video, uh, it, it was the most fulfilling experience in my life because, uh, slowly after a few days, uh, people started to wear face masks outside, uh, here in Prague. And then, uh, I took my, uh, good friend and, uh, she, she was studying, uh, in LA, she's, she's a, a, a director and we made a, uh, English video. And the video went viral. Now, uh, the campaign Masks For All has, uh, reached more than 1.2 billion. So we basically-

Chris Williamson 47:23 Oh my God.

Petr Ludwig 47:24 ... made a video that helps.

Chris Williamson 47:25 And that was your video? That was your idea?

Petr Ludwig 47:27 It was, it was, well, m- my and her s- uh, our video, and it was featured in CNN, BBC, in the main media around the world. And, uh-

Chris Williamson 47:37 Dude, that's so good.

Petr Ludwig 47:38 ... then it was shared by, by few, uh, few American, uh, senators and a few candidates on, uh, uh, US president and politicians around the world, but from both sides, bo- both parties. For example, Ivanka Trump shared the, the, the picture that she, she is sewing her own face masks and, uh, it was incredibly positive, uh, moment o- of my life when I saw that we are all united in front of the virus. And it was so strong to me because, uh, now we have volunteers every- where, uh, around the world, basically we have more than thousand volunteers in New Zealand, for example, and, uh, the solution for the pandemic was to really wear a face mask. And now there is a lot of new scientific evidence that it really works.... so, and it started with, with my s- simple video and then another video, and then it went viral.

Chris Williamson 48:35 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 48:35 And now 70 plus countries have, uh, masks mandatory.

Chris Williamson 48:39 Peter, con- congratulations.

Petr Ludwig 48:39 And we have enough evidence that it really started with video, like ... (laughs)

Chris Williamson 48:42 That's so ... (laughs) You've managed to change the

Chris Williamson 48:45 world. What a- what a- what a thing to do. Okay, so I wanna, I wanna kind of bookend what we know about procrastination. We've given ourselves-

Petr Ludwig 48:51 Right.

Chris Williamson 48:51 ... a nice framework there. Let's say someone's listening and they just keep procrastinating. They've got a bunch of tasks that they've got to get done, maybe they don't quite have the degrees of freedom to be able to not do them, they can't get rid of them to find meaning. You're sitting down now to start to do the things that you have to do, what would you say or what are some of the things that those people can do in terms of actual takeaway tactics that will actually move the needle for them?

Petr Ludwig 49:17 Well, do 20 push-ups daily. (laughs) Basically, do exercise on a daily basis because it really, uh, can boost your willpower. Uh, ask yourself what is, uh, the real reason why you are doing those things, so what is the purpose? So basically ask the question why. Why are you doing those things, and how you can, uh, improve those things that you are doing in terms of a greater, uh, meaning. So, how can you add some small details that can help your clients or your colleagues, uh, even more? And then, um, ask what are your strengths and how you can improve those, those strengths, because, uh, if you already believe in what you are doing and if you believe that you are skilled in those domains, you enjoy the process even more. And focus on the process more than, uh, the destination. So goals are not important because we are getting used to them because of the hedonic adaptation. So try to enjoy the process more and try to enjoy th- e- every minute, and, uh, I call this healthy perfectionism because, uh, th- I have this concept from Japan. So whatev- whatever you do, try to, uh, do it as, as, as, as good as possible. And if you are focused on details, you enjoy the process even more, so ...

Chris Williamson 50:41 That's cool. I noticed, I noticed today, you haven't mentioned anything about next actions, about next physical actions or about breaking large tasks down into their next iterative step. Is there a reason for that?

Petr Ludwig 50:54 Yeah. No, I have th- this in my book too, but I think this- it's, uh, too obvious, so I wanted to discuss some non, uh, intuitive, uh, ideas.

Chris Williamson 51:05 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, I mean, for the people who don't see it as obvious, would you be able to explain the concept of using a next action?

Petr Ludwig 51:12 Okay, for example, when I was, uh, writing the book, uh, in the beginning I told myself, "Well, uh, write a chapter." So I had in my to-do, uh, plan, write a chapter, and w- write a chapter is a huge, uh, task, so, uh, I had a very negative emotion towards, uh, that task. But if you, uh, like cut the, the big thing into smaller parts, uh, then it's much easier. So for example, if you told, uh, tell yourself to write two paragraphs daily, it's much easier than to write a, a whole chapter. So basically this is a key hack how to overcome procrastination, so if you procrastinate something, just cut the task in the middle or, uh, divide the task into three smaller tasks, and then, uh, it's much easier. Because as I said, procrastination is emotional problem, so you have to really decrease the negative emotion, uh, the aversion against the, uh, the task, and if you divide the task, then you have, uh, smaller negative emotion.

Chris Williamson 52:16 I like that. I like that a lot. I think the, the marrying of the big overarching meaning-based conceptual stuff with breaking things down, so for instance, the next action's one of them, I know that you have, uh, on your website, you talk about, um, a lot of the time people might not continue a task because they don't actually know what to do next.

Petr Ludwig 52:37 Right.

Chris Williamson 52:37 Like, "What, what should I do?" And you talk about ...

Petr Ludwig 52:40 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:40 I think it's, um, go and do some research or ask someone for advice. Are those the two ...

Petr Ludwig 52:44 Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 52:46 Yeah. Well, I mean, the number of times that people sit down to try and do a task and they procrastinate on it because they don't actually know how to do the thing that they're trying to do.

Petr Ludwig 52:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 52:54 Now obviously, if you don't know how to do the thing you're trying to do, you're not going to do the thing that you're trying to do, right?

Petr Ludwig 52:59 Right. Yeah. (laughs) Exactly. Yeah, so that's why I love some, uh, like visual plans, like mind maps. You can, you can, uh, for example, if you are starting a new project, I highly recommend to start with a mind map because then you know, like, what to do next. For example, uh, when I was writing the book, I had a mind map for each chapter, and when I was about to write, I already had the map and it told me, like, "Today you should write about, uh, willpower," for example. And, uh, to have a visual plan helps you to know what to do, uh, next. So it's, it's like a, a real map. If you are lost in a, in a city, uh, without map, you are confused, but if you have a map, then you know what to do next. So, uh, I highly recommend you to have mind maps for every project that you are working on.

Chris Williamson 53:43 Yeah, I- I'm someone who naturally doesn't plan a whole lot, um, which I know, yeah, it's, it's shocking. Um, but the more that I've trained myself to be able to do it, I ... It, it

Chris Williamson 53:55 changes. It's such a game changer, and I think, um, previously, I had a resistance to planning because I thought this time that I'm spending planning could be spent doing. I don't need to do the plan, I can just start doing it. This is all wasted time. Why would I spend two hours planning something? I can get two hours of work in. What you don't realize is that that time at the beginning makes such a difference. You're like 10 times more efficient, like, even 100 times more efficient.

Petr Ludwig 54:21 Exactly, yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:23 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 54:23 100% right. Yeah. The, the, the writing, it's, it's, it's like that because if, if you sit and, uh, tell yourself ...... "Okay, now write."

Chris Williamson 54:32 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 54:32 You don't know what to write. If you have a good plan and if you have a, a, like, mind map for, uh, almost e- every paragraph of the book, then it's much easier to write. You just write wha- and you know what to write. So, um, like if you spend s- some time with planning, at the end, as you said, you are 10 times more productive-

Chris Williamson 54:51 Yeah.

Petr Ludwig 54:51 ... probably. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 54:52 Peter, it's, that's awesome, man.

Petr Ludwig 54:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 54:54 Anything else to say? Any final notes that we haven't covered today? Any bits that people need to know about procrastination?

Petr Ludwig 55:01 Well, uh, I really want s- people to really rethink their lives in era of the, the virus. And I truly, uh, and highly recommend people to, um, be more humble after the, the crisis. So humbleness should be the, um, outcome of the, uh, crisis. So, that, that w- that was the main, uh, uh, idea for- for me for today, I guess.

Chris Williamson 55:31 Man, I think, um, well, anyone that's leaving the last few months, anyone that's leaving 2020-

Petr Ludwig 55:39 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 55:39 ... and feeling like it's time to have it, to build an ego up, uh, like you just haven't existed in the same reality that the rest of us have.

Petr Ludwig 55:48 Yep. Yep.

Chris Williamson 55:48 Like how can you see this as anything other than wow, mortality and humanity are so tenuous and so delicate.

Petr Ludwig 55:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 55:58 And, i- i- and- and y- you know, it does say a lot for the way that people are developing that I'm speaking to my neighbors more as I do a morning walk now.

Petr Ludwig 56:08 Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:08 And people are coming up and they seem to be... I haven't seen road rage. Like do you remember road rage?

Petr Ludwig 56:12 Mm-hmm.

Chris Williamson 56:12 I haven't seen road rage in like four months.

Petr Ludwig 56:14 Hm.

Chris Williamson 56:14 There's no road rage. Everyone's, "Ah, this guy is having a bad time. This is challenging." There's, there's more-

Petr Ludwig 56:19 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:19 ... understanding, more empathy, right? So-

Petr Ludwig 56:21 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:21 Maybe, maybe you're right, maybe that's what's going to happen. Or perhaps people's memories are going to be short and it's going to take mother nature to fire another shot across our bow for us to realize-

Petr Ludwig 56:35 Right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:35 ... that we need to get our egos in check.

Petr Ludwig 56:38 Right. Yeah. So probably this crisis can help us, and if not, we need another crisis, so.

Chris Williamson 56:44 (laughs) ? ? ? Well, I'll tell you what, if we d- if we haven't fixed it, you can just order us another crisis.

Petr Ludwig 56:49 Right. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 56:49 Amazon, Amazon probably have a couple of crises that you can just buy, so go and get yourself one of there.

Petr Ludwig 56:54 (laughs)

Chris Williamson 56:55 Um, where can people get your book, Petr? And what else should they check out? What do you wanna plug, uh, send people to?

Petr Ludwig 57:00 Yeah. It's, it's very easy. Our domain is procrastination.com. So you can remember it easily. And it's, I guess, everywhere. It's in 18 languages now.

Chris Williamson 57:10 Oh my God.

Petr Ludwig 57:10 So we have Japanese translation, Korean translation, many, uh, European languages. So you can get, uh, the book in your favorite language.

Chris Williamson 57:19 Man, lovely.

Petr Ludwig 57:20 I believe. It's a bad one.

Chris Williamson 57:20 And then what about... Are you on, are you on social media if people wanna check you out?

Petr Ludwig 57:23 Yeah, of course. It's @P-E-T-R L-U-D-W-I-G, so my name and surname.

Chris Williamson 57:28 Petr Ludwig. Lovely.

Petr Ludwig 57:29 And it's, uh, I'm mostly on LinkedIn and Instagram. I don't like Facebook that much because my timeline is full of, uh, crazy political, uh...

Chris Williamson 57:40 Facebook's a cesspool, man.

Petr Ludwig 57:41 ... sh- shit, let's say. Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:41 Facebook's, Facebook's been... Never been as bad as it has now.

Petr Ludwig 57:44 Yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:44 You know what the fi- the, the final fatality of COVID-19 is? Facebook news feeds. That's what it is.

Petr Ludwig 57:50 Right. Right. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Williamson 57:51 (laughs) That's the final fatality.

Petr Ludwig 57:53 And, uh, they, they really paid the best, uh, addictologists around the world to make the timeline more addictive to you. So basically it's your, uh, like a personal tabloid for you, and it's all about your emotions, so they know what, uh, makes you crazy. So, um, so that's why my, uh, timeline is f- full of Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.

Chris Williamson 58:16 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 58:17 I don't know.

Chris Williamson 58:17 I get you. Look, man, Petr, it's been, it's been great. I hope that it's hoped- helped a lot of people to get over their procrastination. Uh, everything that we've spoken about will be linked in the show notes below. If you've got any questions, comments or feedback, you know where to get them, @ChrisWillX, or find Petr online and give him, give him some hassle as well. Dude, thank you so much and congratulations on your amazing social campaign for the, uh, for the masks.

Petr Ludwig 58:39 And Chris, thank you so much for this interview. I really enjoyed it. And next time we should do that, uh, in person because yeah.

Chris Williamson 58:46 Yes. I mean, with- with masks?

Petr Ludwig 58:48 I don't like to do everything online.

Chris Williamson 58:49 (laughs)

Petr Ludwig 58:49 So yeah, we can do it with masks.

Chris Williamson 58:52 Cool, man.

Petr Ludwig 58:52 So thank you for having me. And, uh, listeners, take care and stay safe.

Chris Williamson 58:56 Of course. Peace.

Narrator 59:01 (techno music plays)