Modern WisdomHow To Put Yourself First Without Feeling Guilty - Nick Pollard
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
155 min read · 31,132 words- 0:00 – 11:24
The Trap of People-Pleasing
- CWChris Williamson
Why is people-pleasing such a trap for so many of us?
- NPNick Pollard
(sighs) I ... Uh, it's a ... There's a, a long answer and a short answer. I think the, the short answer to that is that we have created an environment through social media, really, you know, predominantly that everybody's now seeking to measure up to somebody else, rather than, you know, focused on this internal locus of control where you can y- you can really be vibrant on your own. Um, but the way that we function now as a society is, has changed that, um, and everybody's comparing themselves to people that, uh, you know, are, are insurmountable. And I find myself doing this too, so you know, I worship at the altars of, you know, Alex Hormozi and, you know, James Smith, and all these guys that I see have, you know, millions of followers and make millions of dollars, and they're exciting, and they're fun, and I'm like, "How do I get to that?" Right? Rather than recognizing in myself, like, I can just be happy with where I am. It doesn't ... It's ... Uh, I have a really great friend, um, who said this to me that really resonated with people-pleasing, which, "You don't have to hate where you are to wanna be better." And when I heard that I was like, "That makes so much sense." And I think we've kind of taught people that you have to, like, almost hate the way that you show up in the world in order to wanna better that. And I just... And I think that causes this idea of, "How do I measure up?" And then, "How do I make everyone else around me happy?" Because that's, that's really what the world is, you know, kinda built on these days.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. Draw the line for me between that sense that we, that we measure up, but, you know, people-pleasing isn't about us. It's about optic management. It's about how other people see us. It's about prioritizing their needs over ours.
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
What ... Y- why is that important? What, what's that got to do with it?
- NPNick Pollard
So I think it's, um ... For me, when it was a, you know, when it was more of a problem, and I, I, I would say that I'm a recovering people-pleaser. It's funny, those things... It's one of those things that I don't think ever really goes away. Um, I think you just kinda battle it. But, um, mostly it's the, an overwhelming sense that you're not enough. And when you're functioning from that place, there's no way you can ever really measure up, and i- and there's ways that you can tune that to make it better, right? So if you have something like that, so if you s- you know, have that kind of inferiority complex plus a superiority complex plus, you know, uh, impulse control is a great example, you can do great things, but ... (laughs) But if you just have this idea that, "I'm not enough," and that's sort of the main track in the background, then you're always trying to measure up to something that doesn't actually exist. So, and, and so often this comes from, you know ... It's kind of a pivot point where you have, like, one parent that was super involved in your life and then one parent that wasn't. Maybe they were abusive. Very similar to the, kind of the nice guy narrative, where you, you show up trying to gain acceptance and love, because, uh, the only, and the only way you know how to do that is to either not show up, like to be completely invisible, um, or to make everyone else happy, right, or to keep everyone else calm, or to constantly be in a peace- peacekeeping, you know, frame of mind, and I think that's where people get really hung up.
- CWChris Williamson
That's the, uh, one of the typical childhood situations that people-pleasers would have?
- NPNick Pollard
Very typical. Um, you know, I've got, I've got one-on-one clients all over the world kind of coming from every, um, every background, you know, everything from CEO down to, you know, you know, pick a position, but, um, the thing that I would say is the most common is, generally speaking, one parent made the... It was an enmeshment issue, so one parent made that child the center of their world, and then the other didn't. So, and so what that teaches them is that, you know, to make this other person happy means they won't get abandoned to... If they don't get abandoned, they'll get their needs met, and then this kind of just plays out in childhood. I, I forget who said it to me, but it was, um, they called it a transference. So it's like you developed a childhood coping strategy and you kept it all the way through your adulthood, and now (laughs) it's not serving you, and nobody really knows what to do with that. So then you have to figure out, like, "What do I do now to make my life better?"
- CWChris Williamson
What behaviors should we look out for that suggest you might be a people-pleaser? How would you, uh, get us to self-diagnose?
- NPNick Pollard
(laughs) Without sounding like a real son of a bitch- (laughs) ... most of the time, um, people-pleasers are, are liars, and that's probably the most common denominator among all of the people I've ever worked with, is this dishonesty in, um, just i- in how they show up in general, right? So lying is one of the bigger things, but you have to then identify what is a lie, you know? So saying yes when you mean to say no, well, that's dishonest, right? Committing to things you don't wanna go to, well, that is also dishonest.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah.
- NPNick Pollard
And so when I work with people and they s- and they kind of realize, "Oh my God, I lie all the time," and it's not that you're lying to the person on purpose. It's not in this kind of malicious way. It's just y- you don't even recognize the damage you're doing to your own wellbeing, and then all of the sudden you have no free time. That's one of the things that you can look for is, like, are you lacking free time? Like, is your calendar always full? (laughs) If you're constantly doing that, are you low on money because other people n- have needs, right? Um, are you prioritizing the wants and needs of other people above your own? Well, that's virtuous in many ways, right? But again, it's like, balance. If you constantly do that and never prioritize yourself, then what ends up happening to you is you're, you're broke, you're alone, you feel miserable. Um, one of the things that I used to say is that I never got invited to barbecues when I was a people-pleaser. Like, my friends would have parties and I'd never get invited to those things. They'd wanna hang out with me for lunch at the office.... right? Or they'd want me to help them do something, but they, they never really engaged with me. And so I think one of the core components that I see with people is that if they're truly in that people-pleasing mind frame, they have a lack of connected relationship, because it's- it's just a masking. I mean, in- in many ways it's similar to narcissism in that way, is that you can't really get to know that person, which is why... Um, so the way I found you was you had kept identifying yourself as a people pleaser, and I'm like, "Uh, y- you don't come off that way to me." (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, interesting. You've got a- a fucking radar that's searching for people pleasers on the internet. No, look, uh, I mean, very much self-diagnosed. Uh, I- I- I'm fascinated by your work. Uh, it's been something... You know, I've spent a lot of time this year reflecting on that. Um, I tend to put other people's needs before mine, and-
- NPNick Pollard
Okay.
- CWChris Williamson
... in many ways, in many ways, that can be seen as considerate, caring, uh, altruistic. You know, looking to-
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... bring other people up. And, um, you know, this must be... I guess, e- e- even the- the real gateway drug at the top of the avalanche is, well, lots of the things that you're talking about when done by, uh, when done consciously, uh, and effortfully, uh, come from a place of virtue, and they're good-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... for the world in many ways, but when you're compelled to do them, when you don't have any other choice than to do them, it takes away a lot of the virtue and it also doesn't allow you to ever advocate for your own needs. Joe Hudson, at the start of this year, a- and I know that you'll agree with this, he said, "If I can't trust your no, I can't trust your yes." And-
- NPNick Pollard
Oh my God, yes. Wow.
- CWChris Williamson
... you kn-
- NPNick Pollard
I love that quote. I've never (laughs) heard that.
- CWChris Williamson
Joe's- Joe's a fucking... He's a beast. Um, but yeah, the fact that you're not saying yes to going to the party or your friend's wedding, you simply cannot say no. And I'm not... I mean, uh, you know, on the gradation of- of, uh, fucking nuclear fallout from a people pleaser, I'm nowhere near as... I'm not like, uh, you know, the elephant's foot inside of fucking Chernobyl. But, um, it's- it's... There's definitely a lot of those tendencies inside of me to put other people's needs before mine, to not advocate for my own needs-
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... to subjugate, uh, my own discomfort in order to not make somebody else uncomfortable. This sense that if you're not okay, I'm not okay, uh-
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... that your emotional state is my responsibility, and, um, you know, I d- I mean, this (laughs) this only came out kind of during therapy where m- my therapist sort of mentioned to me, "You do seem to sort of put other people's needs before yours a lot, and you're kind of prepared to suffer unnecessarily, uh, even though you could probably stop this, but the stopping it would cause a little bit of discomfort, but you're prepared to avoid a little bit of discomfort and just spread a metric fuck-ton across, you know, days and months and years."
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
And, um, yeah, that's my- that's my self-diagnosis, I suppose.
- NPNick Pollard
Okay, so maybe I was wrong. (laughs)
- 11:24 – 17:18
Learning to Be Honest With Yourself
- CWChris Williamson
I- I really wanted... I- I- I have something that's more important. Uh, the fact that people pleasers are liars, um, that there is a sense of inauthenticity, um, a malleability, appliability that you have-
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... uh, which m- means that you're not telling the truth, and-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... you know, uh, it's- it's uncomfortable because again, you're- you're saying that I should do something that upsets people more than something that's nice. It's like, well, ki- if it's not the truth, if it's not genuinely what you believe, then which one's more virtuous? And, uh-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... if it's not coming from a place of-... genuine care, uh, and, and, like, y- y- you speaking forward what you actually want, it is a lie. Like-
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... you, you can wrap it up however you want and, and say that it makes the world better and that it's coming, it's because of compassion and all the rest of it, but it's like, it's a fucking lie, dude.
- NPNick Pollard
Right. Well, and so if somebody was to come to you, um, let's pretend you're all- you're allergic to peanuts, right? And somebody says, "Do you want peanuts?" Well, and it might hurt their feelings if you don't eat the peanuts. Are you gonna eat the peanuts? Probably not, right? Because it'll kill you. (laughs) But so if, if that's the case, when you think of anything that you, you dislike or genuinely don't wanna do, it, it's in, it's almost in the same vein because on a long enough timeline, it kills your ability to experience joy and happiness and authenticity. 'Cause you, and then, you know, and so often I hear it, like, "How do I find myself?" Well, so one of the core concepts, and you, you'd mentioned, you know, psychology before, and I'm not a psychologist, uh, you know, I, I'm just a person who's been through this and something I see in a lot of my clients is that they, they've either didn't have a ton of play in childhood or, or, you know, so they were kind of caretakers or, or meeting the needs of their parents, et cetera, or they've forgotten how to play in adulthood.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- NPNick Pollard
And because what we find is that, you know, if you don't play and you, and you don't learn, then you can't, um, self-define. If you can't self-define, then you lose kind of a scope of who you are. So I actually believe, you know, people pleasers struggle with the idea of self-identity very often. Um, and they're always asking me like, "How do I find myself?" And my advice is never do that. Never, ever find yourself. Constantly invent the new version of you. And through self-invention, you find more joy. But you have to do that through play.
- CWChris Williamson
Talk to me about ... Yeah. Talk to me about this sort of lineage between play, self-invention, self-identity. How does this fit together?
- NPNick Pollard
So I, I think I figured it out. (laughs) It, it is a relatively new development for me. I, I have made an effort in the last 12 months to be more playful and because I'd kind of lost all my whimsy. You've started a business. You know what I'm going through. I'm in year three of this thing. It's a fucking disaster all the time.
- CWChris Williamson
Eating glass. Yeah.
- NPNick Pollard
Right? I'm constantly lighting myself on fire, um, and then trying to put myself out with kerosene. It's really great. But, so I, I really made a commitment to myself that I was gonna do more playful stuff, and I was watching kids in the park the other day and I'm watching them play and i- it occurred to me that they're not just playing. To the adult, like to you and I when we see kids play, what do we see? We see just fun and, you know, they're on the jungle gym and they're, and they're doing the thing, um, whatever they happen to be doing, and they're gonna get hurt and they're gonna do whatever. But they're not playing. They're learning. They're discovering through play, like, what are their boundaries? What can they physically tolerate? What do they like? What don't they like? And they do that by playing with each other, and then very often they're, they're putting on personas of who they wanna be. Right? So y- you know, one kid wants to be Iron Man, one guy wants to be a fireman, one little girl wants to be a princess, somebody else wants to be something else, right? And, and through that idea of like, self-invention, that's how they start to form the idea of, like, what is their, their definition of self? And I think adults don't play enough to continue that self-invention process so they lose contact with that core kid-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- NPNick Pollard
... um, where they're like, "Okay, well now who am I?" Well, I don't know. You haven't spent any time inventing that.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah. That's very interesting. Uh, I've been thinking an awful lot recently about trying to find more fun in the things that I do and, um, this sort of balance between joy and meaning, uh, I kind of have it in my head that there's broadly two buckets of people. One are more hedonists and the other are David Goggins, and lots of people-
- NPNick Pollard
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Lots of people that listen to this podcast will probably fall into the latter category, the people who like to take things seriously, they're earnest about their work, uh, they apply effort, they're rigorous, they pay attention, uh, they're prepared to, you know, marshmallow test their way until the end of time.
- NPNick Pollard
(laughs) Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
But as Bill Perkins says, "Delayed gratification in the extreme results in no gratification." And more than that, not only do you continue to sort of mañana, mañana put off all of the things that you're going to do to a time that never comes, you end up ... You end up forgetting the reason that you're supposed to do these things. You're not doing hard things so you can do more hard things so you can do more hard... There has to be a point at which an inherent good comes through, which is some sense of joy and play and lightness, and you end up being sort of very, very rigid and brittle in a very strange way. You're sort of stiff with the way that you go about things. You're not prepared to be flexible. You're not prepared to take on adventures in the same way. Even your adventures need to be fucking planned. Your holiday needs a massive itinerary and you need to make sure that you work twice as hard before you leave so you don't feel like a piece of shit when you're there. And, you know, all of this sort of comes together. So, uh, yeah. The, the sense of play, uh, certainly resonates with me, uh, or the, the, the lack thereof, um, the difficulty in finding joy.
- 17:18 – 22:02
Why People-Pleasers Struggle to Find Joy
- CWChris Williamson
I'm gonna guess, uh, typically do you find with people pleasers, your clients, people that you've spoken to, that, uh, finding joy in life is something that they often difficut- find difficulty with?
- NPNick Pollard
Tremendous difficulty. Um, and it comes from so often in any way, I think it shows up in a ton of these guys and girls as, like, giving to themselves feels inappropriate. It feels ... So they, they're kind of wracked with shame. It's, uh, in the same way that ... So people pleasing very often can mirror addiction, um, in terms of, you know, I'd say its North Star, which is shame. Um, so when you're trying to make everyone around you happy, you're basically kind of always in this modality of trying to appease this inner voice that says, "I'm not good enough. I'm not enough," which is toxic shame. It's like, "I'm bad. I'm no good," right? Rather than, "I did bad," "You are bad." And when you're always trying to prove yourself as better, that means deep at your core, what does it, what do you believe? It means that, "I'm not enough."Right? Well, ask any addict why that they're- you know, nobody wakes up in the morning and goes, "Fucking great, I'm gonna do some heroin today." Like, nobody's excited about that. Why do they do it? It's to bury this feeling of, of toxicity in themselves. Um, and then it just kind of spirals out of control. So when you're talking about somebody that is- that experiences a- almost a total inability to give to themselves before they give to everyone else, um, yeah, it's really hard to find joy. It- you know, for me, God, I- I would... I have a story. It was- (laughs) I was, I was in roofing sales. This is years ago, and, um, w- I've heard a lot of your stuff, by the way, on everybody should have a door-knocking job or a, a club promoter job, and I fully agree with that sentiment, um, because I'm not afraid of rejection in any way, shape, or form. But, um, that's probably a lie. (laughs) Anyway, (laughs) going back to, to the idea, you know, here I was. I was- I had- I had just gotten out of rehabilitation. I, you know, I, I'd sobered up and I'd done all the things. You know, my story's a pretty dark one. And, um, I was standing in, in a warehouse store, um, looking at televisions and I was crying. Like, because I couldn't force myself to do this thing for myse- and I, and I had the money. This wasn't like something I had to go and, you know, take out a credit card for. I- I- sitting on plenty of cash, and my bills were paid, and my rent was paid for the year, and, uh, (laughs) I mean, I was good. And there I stood, just, you know, sobbing, because I couldn't make myself buy myself this present, because it didn't serve the purpose of making other people happy. And I did this for weeks. Weeks! Like, weeks on end, I would just go stand there and be like, "I can't pull the trigger." And finally, um, I went to my own therapist, and, and he said to me, you know, uh, "You could just stop being a coward and buy the fucking TV." And I was like, "Okay." (laughs) So, I go in and buy it, and, um, I made him strap it to the car before I sw- I swiped my credit card, so I couldn't turn back. Um, and, uh, I think that was- that was really the first time I'd noticed it in myself, really. So this is back in 2019 when I really went, "Wow, I have a real challenge with experiencing joy. I've- I have a bigger problem with experiencing celebration. I have a huge problem with asking for what I need. And then once I do that, I have a bigger problem with receiving it." So all of these components, I started to put it together. I'm like, "Wow, that sucks." Like, that's a really terrible way to live your life. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Permanently making yourself the second or third or fourth priority...
- NPNick Pollard
Oh, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... after everybody else.
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So just dig in a little bit more to the real costs of being a people pleaser. Why- wha- why is it a bad thing? What does it do to your- you mentioned well-being earlier on. Wh- wh- what does it do to the pleaser themselves?
- NPNick Pollard
So the... It deprioritizes a lot of things. So, um, I- I'd say the first is your physical well-being will take a backseat to everybody else's needs. And so the first thing I started to do was get in shape. Um, and I- I've been listening to your show for years now, and every single person that comes on says, "Yeah, everything changed for me when I got in shape." So here's the One more to the list. ... I'll be the- I'll- right, I'll be the 7,000th person to say that on this show. Um, so the first thing I noticed was that, um, I had been deprioritizing the- really the core of what my body needs. So I was eating poorly because I didn't have enough time to cook for myself. I was-
- 22:02 – 26:55
The Cost of Being a People-Pleaser
- NPNick Pollard
um, you know, I wasn't going to the gym. I wasn't, you know, taking yoga classes. I wasn't stretching. I wasn't meditating. I wasn't doing any of the- any of the cool shit I do now. Um, so that's kind of the first thing, is that you notice that your health is suffering. So the second, um, and probably more important, is that your emotional well-being takes a hit every day. Like, you always kind of feel like you're behind the eight ball in, um, where you're going. I used to... Uh, it was really weird for me, but I never felt like I could catch up to anybody. Um, so, uh, I think you're 35, I'm 44. Um, if I was in a room with you, I would feel like I was younger than you. (laughs) And I have no idea why that was. Like, everybody was a titan to me. Everybody was better than me, and I was constantly trying to measure up. So when you think of what that does to your mental health, it just puts you in a position that you always feel like you're in the lurch and you can never be what you want to be. And then, uh, financially, it'll ruin you. You know, I would give away- I would give away money to my mom, I'd give away money to my girlfriend, I'd give away money to anybody that needed it. And I'm watching my bank account dwindle, and I'm bailing people out of jail, and I'm doing everything I can to make everybody else's life easier, because I thought that's what it meant to get love. And so when you consider the implications of how- over a long timeline, how it will impact you, it will literally take your life away. It- the average people pleaser that I work with is- is either at or about to be burnt out at 38. Like, completely burned out. (laughs) And it's really kind- and n- now, very often they'll burn out and they can continue to keep going, because, well, they have responsibility, and they have... You know, so entrepreneurs are really great at this. Um, we're awesome people pleasers very often, because we get to a place where, like, the customer's always right, um, and we're trying to make money in that first three years especially, where you really have to have boundaries, you really have to know what you're doing. Um, if you aren't careful, you can go down that road really quickly. But, um, people that h- have high levels of success as people pleasers generally are burnt out and they're just kind of burying it, and their misery is growing, and their income is rising, and they're like, "Why aren't I getting happy? Why aren't I getting happy? Why aren't I getting happy?" And the paychecks get bigger, and the- and, and it just keeps expanding. So it's like-It's like that foam you see that they make, and, you know, have you ever seen the stuff, um, where they make this, like, super foam and they pour it out of a bucket-
- CWChris Williamson
Oh, and it goes all o- it goes all over someone's-
- NPNick Pollard
... and then it fills the room. (laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
... yeah, garden. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have seen that, yeah.
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah. That's, that's kinda what I feel like people-pleasing does, is that it, it starts out as this small problem, but it becomes very explosive toward the end, and then what you see is somebody with no boundaries, no, um, uh, a self-image that's generally pretty flawed, um, or wildly inaccurate. Um, you see people that are depressed, um, that are, you know, kind of... And they'll come to me and say, you know, "I'm, I'm living in my own misery," and I'm like, "Well, stop." Like, "Just don't do that anymore." And (laughs) , you know, and then, and they look at me like that's possible. Like, yeah, you can choose to not do this. Um, and it's, uh, I think the biggest challenge is, is overcoming the idea too that, um, the opposite of people-pleasing isn't being an asshole. Um, I think there's this, there's, it's this polarized thinking that, you know, you see it in American politics a lot, you see it in, well, you see it in America a lot, um, and, you know, it's like, it's either left or right, right or wrong, black or white, and it's not that, you know? So-
- CWChris Williamson
People-pleasing or asshole.
- NPNick Pollard
Right. It's, you, you know, why would you try and find the tipping point between two wildly toxic extremes?
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- NPNick Pollard
Um, they're on the same through line. They both come from, "I'm a not enough." So move up to, "I'm enough," and then, you know, let's see where you land.
- CWChris Williamson
How can someone distinguish between being considerate and sacrificing their identity f- to please others?
- NPNick Pollard
I knew you were gonna ask me that, and I still don't know how to answer it, but I'm gonna give it a, I'm gonna give it my best shot.
- CWChris Williamson
Cool.
- NPNick Pollard
Um... I think the way that I distinguish it is by the emotion itself. So when I give to somebody from a place of, of love, and that can be anything, whether I'm buying my girlfriend flowers or whether I'm taking my kid to the park or whatever, um, there's a sense of peace in that. And... sometimes I
- 26:55 – 29:34
When Does Being Considerate Go Too Far?
- NPNick Pollard
wanna do it, sometimes I don't. But there's still... But that overwhelming sense of peace in being, um, giving is real for... And it, and I think that's real for all people, right? I think generosity is, is probably one of my, you know... If it's not my North Star, it's probably in the, in the top three, right? And so I think there's this beauty in generosity and, and being authentic about that. When I find myself in the pleasing modality, there usually is something bubbling behind it. Like, most people know when they're doing something wrong. Like, you can feel it. It's, like, the minute that resentment hits you, you need to correct course, and for me, resentment in the body just shows up, like, right here in my solar plexus and, "Motherfucker, why am I having to do this?" Right? And if I start hearing that narrative in my mind, and I've trained my mind to hear it now, it's like, maybe I need to not, you know, do that. The other thing that I, I, I think you can really do to determine this is, is put space between your decision to giving. So if you make a decision like, "I'm gonna give, you know, 500 bucks to the waitress because that's a cool thing to do at Christmas," or whatever, right? That's fine, right? That's perfectly normal. You're ne- you're never gonna see that person again. They're not gonna be pleased with you for eternity. But, like, when you're ready to give to somebody you love, give yourself an hour, give yourself a day to ask the question, like, "What am, what is the purpose of this? Am I doing this for the reasons that are, are genuine and generous and kind and loving, or am I doing this because I need validation?"
- CWChris Williamson
Is there a difference... You, you mentioned it earlier on, guys and girls that you work with. Talk to me about the difference in how men and women show up with their people-pleasing nature. Is it motivated differently? Does it present in different manners? Is the framing, uh, uh, d- different in any way?
- NPNick Pollard
I'd say it's similar. I don't (laughs) I don't know that it's... I don't know that there's a wild difference. It's one of those really interesting things, and it's, um, between the masculine and feminine. I don't know that, um, I don't know that I could pinpoint, like, a major difference.
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- NPNick Pollard
So much as I would say there's, there's different ways of recognizing it. Um, women tend to be, you know, they, they're... (laughs) So I've never met a people-pleaser that wasn't angry. I've never met a people-pleaser that wasn't a liar. And I've never met a people-pleaser that wasn't aggressive or passive-aggressive. Women tend to be more passive-aggressive on this side. So the one thing that
- 29:34 – 40:02
How Men & Women People-Please
- NPNick Pollard
I can say about, you know... And I, I, weirdly, my, my practice will shift. It does this weird thing. Like, I'll have guys, and then it will stop, and then I'll have girls-
- CWChris Williamson
Hm.
- NPNick Pollard
... and then it will stop. (laughs) I don't know why it does this, um, but it does. And right now, I'm working with mostly women, but what I find mostly in women is they tend to externalize it as a problem of everyone else, where men tend to internalize it as, "I'm a piece of shit."
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, that's interesting.
- NPNick Pollard
Um, so women will say to me a lot, like, "If I could only get this person to do this thing, I would be able to set boundaries." I'm like, "Hm, no, like, maybe set boundaries, and then if they don't do the thing, let's move on from that." Whereas men are like, "I'm such a piece of shit. I can never set boundaries." (laughs) So-
- CWChris Williamson
I wonder... Yeah. I was, I was thinking about this. Uh, I wonder whether there's an extra level of shame for men around being pliable. Uh, you know, you're supposed to be this sort of-... rigid, stoic, self-sufficient pillar of the community, or r- your relationship, or your friendship, or your family, or whatever it might be. And, um, that's not to say that women shouldn't have a backbone as well. Obviously, they should.
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
But the level of assertiveness that we just expect dispositionally from men tends to be higher. Men, on average-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... are more disagreeable, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And, um, regardless of whether or not the actual manifestation of it is more or less acceptable, I think the story that men tell themselves around their pliability, uh, I think that there's perhaps some additional levels of shame in that.
- NPNick Pollard
I would fully agree with that. Um, I think it shows, I think it rears its ugly head in a lot of ways. Um, and w- one of, you know, potentially one of the biggest, most toxic ones is in sexuality. Um, you know, the unfortunate news about being a man in this day and age, especially one that happens to look, talk, and act like me, um, is that I have no voice. I ... And if I do, then I'm, I'm also a piece of shit. But if I don't, I'm also a piece of shit. (laughs) There's no way to win, um, y- in, in this, you know, present environment. But I think the manosphere isn't helping, um, by any stretch of the imagination. I think this idea of, like, everybody has to be stoic, and if you're not, you know, self-denying yourself, and i- if you're not, you know ... Again, to your point of, like, if I'm not deferring my gratification, then, you know, why even show up? And it's-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNick Pollard
... you know, if I don't, if I don't make $300 million a year, I may as well just, you know, hang myself. And it just, it's all of these kind of giant narratives where it's, it's the loudest, craziest people on every spectrum that get the most notoriety. And, um, so I don't think that's helping. But, um, I think you're, I think you're touching on something that's very interesting, is that we've redefined masculine as this toxic trait. And meanwhile, if we don't function in our masculine, we are considered toxic. So most of my male-
- CWChris Williamson
Or use- or useless.
- NPNick Pollard
Right. It's either useless or toxic. So most of my male people pleasers, you know, when I, when I look into that genre, you're gonna find that Dr. Glover and I, you know Robert Glover, um, function in the same realm as ... You know, the male version of a people pleaser is a nice guy. And very often, nice guys were raised in, you know, predominantly female environments where, you know, mom was in control, dad was generally either not around, uh, available, semicolon, however, or, or, you know, in this sphere of abuse or some other awful thing, which is part of my story. And, um, so I think to find those guys and tell them they're okay, like, this is okay, like it, it's just you struck on something that's, like, deep in my heart, so I'm trying to get this to, to articulate, and it's not quite working. Because I spent my entire life being ashamed of who I was as a man, and then when I wasn't, I was pissed.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs) Yeah.
- NPNick Pollard
Like, because, because I was ... Because now wounded, right? Now I'm like-
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah.
- NPNick Pollard
... I spent my whole life not thinking women liked me. I spent my whole life not thinking I was good enough. I spent my whole life climbing a ladder I didn't wanna climb. Like, I did all this crap for everyone else, and I became a resentful, angry, drunk, addicted piece of shit. (laughs) Because I didn't know what to do with it. Right? There's nobody ... And you've said it before, and, uh, you know, I've said it a million times, is that I, I truly believe that, um, psychology as it exists today is not built for men. Like, it just doesn't b- y- ... I don't need you to tell me I'm okay. I don't need to cry on your shoulder. That's not what I need. And, um, for somebody to just say, "Hey, maybe, like, let's look for some purpose. Let's do something else," um, has been so helpful. But yeah, I, I don't know if that answers your question.
- CWChris Williamson
I, I understand this sort of, uh, threading of a needle between w- ... We want men to be strong, but we also want them to open up. Men want to be understood, and they want their suffering to be recognized, but they also don't want to be pandered to or treated with kid gloves.
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And it's a really difficult balance to strike. It's superbly-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... difficult balance to strike, because you don't want to patronize guys, 'cause that's gonna switch them off.
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
But the line between not patronizing and ignoring is actually perilously pretty close, uh, and then-
- NPNick Pollard
(laughs) That's a great phrase.
- CWChris Williamson
... that speaks into, that, that, that speaks into all of the fears that every guy has about, "Well, if I open up, I'm gonna be shunned by m- my girlfriend, or my wife, or-
- NPNick Pollard
Sure.
- CWChris Williamson
... society. I'm not going to be seen as a, a competent man, so I'll just swallow it down. But I'm also told that if I don't do that ... And I also have the sense as well that that's probably not super healthy for me from a psychological standpoint. I feel like I should be able to, you know, feel joy, and feel fear, and feel pain, and feel scared-
- 40:02 – 55:37
Why People Struggle to Advocate for Their Needs
- NPNick Pollard
the biggest fear that I see in- in that people pleasing set, when I- when I talk about things like setting boundaries is, everybody's gonna be mad at me. Everybody's gonna hate me. Um, and when I hear that, um, I hear my own, um... I hear that part of me that was a little kid that just wanted to be loved and accepted, and I just wanted to make friends. And, um, I struggled with that, you know, mightily most of my life. So I think it's... I think the advocacy of self presents a- a really big challenge because it's probably the scariest thing you can do, is to say, "I need something." And when you're a kid and you don't get it, and then you learn to ask, um, is dangerous, um, or could get me abandoned, um, or, you know, to stand up for myself means the bully gets bigger, not goes away, right? Um, I- I think that's where that comes from.
- CWChris Williamson
Certainly, the pattern of simply not being used to it, not thinking that your needs are valid, uh, uh, d- definitely, you know, thinking if- if you grew up in a household where it was difficult for you to communicate transparently. Maybe parents didn't communicate very transparently.
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
There was a lot of p- passive aggression or shadow sentences. People didn't say what they meant. They said a thing and hoped that the other person would arrive at the thing that they meant and then resent them if they didn't.
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
Uh, at what point have you got the training for it? So, you know, for all for me to say, you know, it's a trike, "It seems very strange that we wouldn't be able to advocate for ourselves, we're the first person," and you go, "Well, I guess so," but what it really shows is just how far from center your life has sort of taken you that you don't even think that advocating for your own needs is something that you should prioritize. And, um-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
... I imagine, as well, that there must come a stage or the more heavily ingrained people pleasers, they must get themselves to a situation where they've people pleased for so long that they don't actually know their own opinion or what they believe or what they want. The... Like, ad- advocating for your needs is tough if you've subjugated them for so long that you have no idea what they are anymore.
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah, it's- it's really hard to come back from (laughs) in that way. Like, if you do it long enough, um-So, and this is- it's interesting you- you come to that because we talked a little bit about, you know, what is the difference between agreeableness and people pleasing. Um, well, (laughs) at some point you just become agreeable to everything (laughs) because you- you... It's not that you don't care, it's that you don't know, right? So, um, if you ask me on a Tuesday, "Do you wanna go out and get tacos or do you wanna go out and get pizza?" I- I'm not gonna give a shit either way. Like, I- I like food and both those sound great, right? So that's what agreeable means to me, is like, I'm happy to just go along- go with the flow from time to time because I don't care, right? But when you do that because you don't, like, want to be the issue of the moment (laughs) , um, and you do that long enough, you're right, you- you don't have a sense of like what are- what... Do I even like pizza? Um, when was the last time I, you know, I had an opinion on- on, God forbid, Donald Trump or- or, you know, Joe Biden? When- when was the last time I actually spoke up for myself? Um, and this can be hugely powerfully painful at work, um, you know, especially if you're- if you've done the corporate environment like I have. You know, I was a corporate sales monkey for years and, um, I would... I was always number two, never number one. That was always interesting, um, because I didn't wanna get... I- I wanted to be seen, but I didn't wanna be that seen, right? Um, and I never stood up for- for what was right. I never stood up for what I believed. And- and, you know, the eventuality was I burned out in corporate America. And I'm- I'm a pretty talented guy. Um, I just couldn't do it anymore. So, yeah, I think that- I think o- over... (laughs) I think that line gets really blurry. Um, and that's probably one of the first things to go in terms of your self-image, is your ability to formulate opinion. Um-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- NPNick Pollard
And I- I mean, I can't put it on a... I couldn't, like, delineate a timeline. Like, if you started at 16, by the time you're 24 you won't have an opinion anymore. But I would say that, like, the first thing you probably start to feel is, "I don't know what my interests are and I don't know what my opinions are." And there's really only way to find that out is to, you know, do some journaling and go try some shit.
- CWChris Williamson
Yeah, it's a particularly... It feels like a particularly unfair curse to know that maybe you've begun to see the light, you've realized that, "I need to s- be more assertive. I need to stand up for myself." And then when you think, "Well, what does that... What am I standing up for? What is myself?" Uh, y- presumably there's some concoction of- of things that I want. "Well, what do I want?" And you don't know, and you realize that the reason you don't know is because you buried it under layers and layers and layers of appeasing others as opposed to appeasing yourself, uh, and prioritizing others as opposed to prioritizing yourself. And you think, "Well, I- I know that I kind of need to do this thing and I don't even... I don't... I'm in a fucking dark jail cell and I don't even know which way- which direction the door is to get out to begin to think about my fucking escape plan."
- NPNick Pollard
True.
- CWChris Williamson
So, yeah, I, um, I think about that a lot. I realized toward the end of my 20s that, you know, I'd, uh, I'd spent a lot of time trying to do whatever I thought I needed to do in order to be able to make other people like me. So when somebody asked me a question, I wouldn't think, "What do I think about this thing?" I'd think, "What does Nick need to hear in order for him to have the best impression of me?" And, you know, there's a million problems with that, but o- one of the biggest ones is that you never actually feel connected to any of your successes or, uh, any of the praise that you receive, because any-
- NPNick Pollard
Oh God, that's a big one, yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
... any positive reinforcement that you get is not somebody seeing you. They're just applauding this role that you play. They're saying, "Hey, well done for doing the little dance that you did." That is not you. It isn't you. So I would say, you know, maybe another, at least, uh, from my past experience, one of the identifying factors is do you feel connected to the successes that you do, or do they feel like somebody else did them sort of on your behalf?
- NPNick Pollard
That is, um... that is a question I'm gonna steal from, uh, you (laughs) . I'm- I'm taking that.
- CWChris Williamson
All right.
- NPNick Pollard
Um, so, um, I've- I've drawn that line but I've never asked the question that way, where I can see, you know... I'm working with a really great, um, CEO now and he... Fascinating dude. Um, and this- something that's really interesting i- in that vein that I wanna come back to is how- how interesting people pleasers actually are. But, um-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNick Pollard
... the... He says to me all the time, "Well, you know, I just got lucky," right? "I just got lucky." It couldn't have been the 25 years of toil. (laughs) It couldn't possibly have been that you have the mind for the work. It couldn't possibly have been that you're talented, right? Um, and I- I fall into that trap a lot myself still. So... And I've mentioned to you, like, this is not something that you... It's not like... I say in my videos very often that I'm a recovered alcoholic. I don't know that I'll ever actually recover from this. I think this is just a thing that I do. It's like, everybody has their thing that they have to deal with in life.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNick Pollard
Um, and if you listen to, you know, uh, whatever personal growth literature that you may en- you know, tend to absorb, but, you know, my very favorite one is Scott Peck. You know, he started with the line, "Life is difficult." And it's... And it remains difficult until you realize it's difficult, and then you don't care that it's difficult so it's no longer difficult (laughs) . So... But this is the difficulty of my life. This is the thing that I'm gonna- I'm gonna overcome for, you know, years to come, and I hope that I can teach my children to overcome and- and all those things.
- CWChris Williamson
Well, you said, uh... You know, you said people pleasers are interesting, and I- I- I would agree. Uh, not being s- fucking filleting myself here, but, um, I think the reason is that, you know, they've got... The only way that you can be a people pleaser is if you have some sense of depth. Uh, you...
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
You are a- a deep thinker in one form or another. You care, you know, very much about others. Uh, you have a- an amount of empathy. Um, you have social sort of agility in a way that, uh, if deployed correctly could be really, really fucking useful, really powerful-
- NPNick Pollard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It could make the world a better place.
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
So it doesn't- it doesn't surprise me that, you know, you get fascinated by these people that you get to meet. And, um...... this Thomas Sowell quote, which I can't stop thinking about, even though I've known it for ages. It just, it becomes more true the longer I think about it, which is, "There are no solutions, only trade-offs." And-
- 55:37 – 1:05:21
First Steps to Correcting People-Pleasing
- NPNick Pollard
I- I, you know, I said it earlier, people pleasers are super interesting. Like, they forget that they have all these weird hobbies, and they're quirky, and you know, you get 'em laughing and talking about who they are, and you find these vibrant, exciting humans that are just waiting to be unleashed, and you know, here they are in a cage that's unlocked. Just open the door and fly the fuck away. Um, so I think to an- to answer your question in a long form is, the first thing is learning to sit in the emotion and recognize it, um, because it really is emotion-based. It's that feeling you get when you feel like you're not enough is the thing you have to look out for, and it's the thing that will sabotage you the fastest. So-
- CWChris Williamson
Is that... Is that feeling of insufficiency for you the sort of root cause that then the people pleasing nature is born out of?
- NPNick Pollard
Yes. Yeah. Um, for me, yes. You know, for most of the people I work with, yes. Um, because you're trying to- you're trying to squelch that. Like, that feeling when you felt like your shoulders were hunched forward, and you kind of... Like, I could see it on you, that you were like, "I don't like that." That doesn't feel good. It feel- it- it almost reverts you to being a child, right? "You looked as though I had scolded you, and it probably felt as though I had scolded you. And what are you gonna do with that feeling, except for go, 'Oh, well, fuck, how do I make that go away?'" Right? "How do I make you like me again?"
- CWChris Williamson
Hmm.
- NPNick Pollard
Right? So when you can sit in that and get used to it, and then start to get curious about when it shows up, you know, that's been the gift for me in this. It's not that I cured it, it's that I'm curious about it. So it shows up and I'm like, (laughs) "What's that?" Like this morning when I'm- I- I had to take a five-mile walk just to get out of my head. Um, you know, and I almost fanboyed when you're going, "Oh my God, it's you!"
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- NPNick Pollard
And so I take this walk and I'm like, "What am- what am I- what am I worrying about? Like, this is either gonna go great or it's not. Like, there's nothing I can do. You know, I'm not a moron. I'm gonna be fine. Um, what am I really worried about?" And- and here I was, you know, back in that- in that mindset, like, "Well, what if he doesn't like me? Well, what if?" (laughs) It- it'll be what it's gonna be. Um, and i- it was me sitting, I was sitting on the capitol steps at- at, um, here in Denver. Um, on the mile-high step, there's a step right there that's a mile high exactly. I like to go sit on that when I'm kind of thinking, and it was there where I was like, "Okay, what am I- what am I believing about this? I'm believing if I don't show up, then I'm a piece of shit. Like, if I don't- and if I don't do this right, then it's gonna be the last podcast I'm ever on." (laughs) And then like, "Okay, how am I reinforcing that belief, Nick? Well, I'm sitting here pondering this over, and over, and over again, and ruminating in my brain like a psychopath, and having conversations with myself on the street like the other people that are around here, and it's not looking good for me. Like, they're probably gonna lock me away." And then it was like, "Okay, well, you know, and these four questions have saved my life a million times. You know, what do I wanna believe about this? Well, no matter what happens, I'll be okay, and I'm okay. Like, I'm- I don't have to be enough, I don't have to be good enough, I don't have to be bad enough, just have to be okay. And then what do I wanna do?" And it was, "Okay, well, I really want a piece of taffy, and I wanna have a Pellegrino, and then I wanna get on the show." Um, and that's what I did. I just got myself a b- and because my brain is gonna tell me what I want, right? Your brain's actually really smart if you listen to it. Um, and it was like, you know, "Let's have a piece of candy and- and relax and, you know, be a kid for 10 seconds, and let's get on the show and have some fun with Chris, and we'll see what happens." Um, Dr. Glover was funny about this. I told him I was coming on the show and I was afraid of it, like, you know. And he says, um, "What are you afraid of?" I said, "Well, what if I screw it up?" And he goes, "Well, you're gonna." I'm like, "Oh." (laughs) "Okay, great. Uh, so now what?" He goes, "Listen, learn to laugh, have more fun, make mistakes, and enjoy yourself." And that's what I'm doing.
- CWChris Williamson
It's the key.
- NPNick Pollard
And I was able to do that by reaching out to, you know, my- my team, my men that I work with-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNick Pollard
... and- and to, you know, kind of talk myself through this- this danger zone.
- CWChris Williamson
What are the other two questions? You said that there was four questions that have got you through a lot of things.
- NPNick Pollard
So the four questions are... So when you get that feeling where you're hunching forward, right, the first question is, "What am I believing?" So our beliefs drive our behavior, our behavior creates our environments. We need to be very careful about what we're believing, especially in a moment like that. Right? So the first question is, "What am I believing?" Very often it's come back in- in some iteration of, "I'm not enough." Right? And whatever iteration that could be. You know, maybe I'm not smart enough, maybe I didn't go to Harvard, maybe... you know, doesn't matter. It's the whole thing. It'll come back in some way or another. According (sighs) to the kind of the really interesting thing about beliefs is that they have to be reinforced somehow. Um, so you have, you know, an experience which is the feeling you're having, and then you have to reinforce it. Um, so you're the only one that can reinforce it. It has to be reinforced by somebody in a position of authority, so if you're by, uh, by yourself, then you're- you are that authority. And so you have to ask yourself the next question, question number two, which is, "How am I reinforcing this belief system? Like, what am I doing or not doing that's making me feel that I am not enough?"... and you'll get an answer to that, right? What am I doing or not doing? Um, question number three is, um, what would I prefer to believe? Like, what would I, what is that preference? You know, rather than what should I believe, what would I prefer to believe? And, um, in my, in my vocabulary at that point was, I would prefer to believe that I got this, like it's good, it's gonna be fine. He's probably not gonna murder me. I don't think he has a, you know, missile that hit- will hit my house. So, I think we're gonna be okay. Um, and then what do I need to do to reinforce this new idea, this new belief system? So, when you go back to question number two, we ask, like, "What am I doing or not doing?" Very often, the answer to question number four, which is, you know, what do I need to do to reinforce this new belief system, it's usually the opposite (laughs) of whatever it was in question two. So, it's like I'm, I'm, uh, I'm timid about the show. It's just to admit that I'm timid about the show. Um, and it's a powerful exercise. I mean, I get to connect with you over it, which... An- and to tell you, like, this has, this has been, like, my... I've been excited all week and... But w- when you have this idea in your head that you're not enough, that excitement very quickly can turn on you into anxiety.
- CWChris Williamson
Mm. Yeah. Dude, so fascinating. I really appreciate that. Um, you, you've mentioned a couple of times already today boundaries-
- NPNick Pollard
Mm.
- CWChris Williamson
... setting boundaries. Um... How do you come to think about that? What is it that people are getting wrong when it comes to it? How can they be useful? Uh, what's the s- what's the process? Give me the, give me boundaries 101, the, the best and the worst.
- NPNick Pollard
The... Okay. So, the first misconception about boundaries, um, is that they're about other people. Uh, so boundaries are about how you show up in the world. They're not... They have nothing to do with anyone else. They are delineators for what you accept and not accept, what you'll tolerate and not tolerate. And so, a boundary doesn't sound like, "Hey, don't say that to me. It makes me mad." A boundary sounds like, "I have a value system that is around this." Then how you communicate that is different. So, uh, for instance, I tend to spend my time only with people that I... that value kindness. If you are an unkind person, you have no space in my life. So, when someone is being unkind, I will generally say, "Hey, I don't appreciate the way that this is happening right now. I'm gonna leave the situation." That's how you enforce a boundary, right? So, your boundaries are actually based on your value systems. That's kind of the, the most important misconception, is that, like, it's a rule book. Boundaries are not a rule book. Um, the other one I hear a lot of is, "Boundaries are about putting yourself first," and that's horse shit. Boundaries are about making your needs equal to everyone around you. So, rather than saying, "I'm putting myself first, I have to be selfish," well, no. (laughs) You don't have to do any of that. You have to define yourself in equality, which is, okay, my needs are as important as everyone else's, and then you can make decisions based on that data, right? So if, for instance, you wanna go out for tacos and somebody else wants to go out for pizza, this is not a boundary, right? Um, but if... You know, one of the things I see a lot with people who've gotten sober is, you know, you'll get a phone call and it's my least favorite question of all time. "Well, there's gonna be drinking at the part- or, uh, party. Is it okay if I drink?" I don't... Why am I in charge of that? So, my boundary around this is, I am not in charge of other... o- of adults other, you know... or other adults' decisions. That's a boundary. Like, I am not in charge of other adults' decisions. That doesn't sound like anybody's got a rule to bend, does it? Like, it's, that's me. I am not in charge of that. So, when they call me and say, "Is it okay if I drink?" I say, "I am not in charge of other adults' decisions. What you choose to do, you choose to do. If what you are choosing to do makes you feel uncomfortable, I would suggest you not do that. But I'm not in charge of that decision." Right? Um, boundaries at work, um, are very, very often something... you know, I get this brought up a lot. It's like, "Well,
- 1:05:21 – 1:18:14
Biggest Misconceptions About Boundaries
- NPNick Pollard
how do I tell my boss I'm not gonna do that?" Well, you just say no, and then that's it. Like, I, I'm, I... Unfortunately, my workload is such, um, and I have a boundary around personal time with my family, so I won't be able to come in this week, or this weekend, whatever the, whatever the thing is, right? So, um, th- those are the two most common misconceptions. When you start to understand that, you start to develop what i- what looks like more like a bill of rights than a list of boundaries.
- CWChris Williamson
For the, uh, Anglosphere people, explain what a bill of rights is in this context, please.
- NPNick Pollard
So, a bill of rights is a list. How do I explain this? Um, I actually do this in Boundary Bootcamp, which is funny, 'cause I, I explain it like shit every single time. Um, (laughs) but a bill of rights is a list of values and priorities that you hold yourself to. So, for instance, I'm allowed to ask for what I want is within my bill of rights. Um, I'm allowed to have conversations during sex is in my bill of rights. Um, I'm allowed to laugh at inappropriate jokes. I'm allowed to make inappropriate jokes. I'm allowed to have an opinion. I'm allowed to like pizza. It's a weird one, but it's in there for me (laughs) because at some point in my life, I was married to a woman who was gluten-free and, uh, for some reason or another, I was not allowed to like the things that I like. I'm allowed to, um... So, when you think of the bill of rights, it's... um, and you can also put in there things you don't have to do. I do not have to tolerate unkindness, right? Um-... I will, I have a, I have a boundary around yelling. I don't believe that that's a proper way to communicate. Um, so i- in my bill of rights is, I do not tolerate yelling in conversation. And how does that show up if I enforce it? Which is-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm-hmm.
- NPNick Pollard
... I would just simply say, "Hey, uh, raising your voice with me is not an op- is not an option. So, we're gonna take a break from this. I'll come back to it in 15 minutes when both of us have calmed down." And that's it. Like, it's not, like it's just, "This is what's gonna happen." Um, so that bill of rights really shows up, and it's (laughs) it's unfortunate because, uh, it's, it sounds a lot like affirmations. Like-
- CWChris Williamson
Mm.
- NPNick Pollard
... and one of your, one of your, um, one of your good friends, um, who is a coach to me that doesn't know he's a coach to me is Alex Hormozi. Um, he's m- (laughs) the, the sphere of, of, uh, personal growth has been so awesome because I, I have coaches that don't know they're my coaches. Um, and he mentioned at one point, I th- I think it was on your show, he said, you know, um, "Confidence is not about shouting affirmations at yourself in the mirror." Um, and I, uh, so this is sort of in that vein. Um, so it's, you know, going against one of my own, uh, you know, heroes, but-
- CWChris Williamson
It feels much more operational, though. You know, most of these, these aren't things that you're saying in the whimsical hope that they're somehow gonna manifest one day. They're guidelines, they're, they're, they're guidelines that you've put on the floor.
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
And you say, "Hey, if you kick one of these, uh, trip wires, then if I don't know where the trip wires are, or if I don't know what they are, and if I haven't-
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
"... sort of made a, uh, a commitment in advance, then I'm always going to negotiate with myself about whether or not that is a trip wire or not."
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And, you know, in the moment, trying to come up with any sort of a solution, I used to have this thing, fuck this is old, God this might be 10 years old now. Um, I used to have this, this thing about how, uh, it's basically impossible to come up with a solution when you're in the midst of the crisis. And, um, if, if, if I told you-
- NPNick Pollard
So good.
- CWChris Williamson
... in a week's (laughs) if I told you in a week's time that I was gonna push you into some quicksand, you could spend the next week on ChatGPT looking at the best strategy and what shoes you'd need to wear, and, "Am I supposed to move?" (laughs) "I sort of do this lateral, like, sort of shaking thing?" Or it's called like, you know, the, the Hoeffler Movement or some shit for getting out of, uh, quicksand.
- NPNick Pollard
(laughs)
- CWChris Williamson
But if I just push you in some quicksand and I'm like, "Hey, fucking try and get ChatGPT out now," y- y- it's not gonna happen. You can't think laterally. And, um, yeah. A- another Hormozi is, I mean, he says, "20 minutes of preparation adds 20 IQ points." I get the sense that with this, it's a much more protracted version. You're much further out in advance, you're s- creating these operating principles. And yeah, maybe it is kind of lame in a way to be like, "Oh my God, like you need to write out this list of rules about how to do things?" And you go, "Yeah, yeah. I'm i- in s- many ways phenomenal and fantastic and competent, and in a ton of other ways, kinda useless. And this is me compensating for my uselessness."
- NPNick Pollard
Yeah.
- CWChris Williamson
"This is a solution for me to work around that, and it helps me to mitigate the parts of me that I don't want to keep manifesting, that these..." Like if you thought about how, uh, you wanted to redirect a river. You have a river and it's moving and it's sort of carving and it's eating away at the outer edge of each turn. It's like chopping away at this thing. You know, like, "I need to redirect it in this way." It's gonna take a fucking ton of effort when you first start.
- NPNick Pollard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
It'll take an absolute ton of effort.
- NPNick Pollard
Mm-hmm.
- CWChris Williamson
But when it begins to find that thing easier than the other thing, that's when you move from system two to system one thinking, right?
- NPNick Pollard
Right.
- CWChris Williamson
And that's the, the, the whole process. You start off in the deliberate and then you move into the automatic. So yeah, I, I-
- NPNick Pollard
I- I explain that really in detail, um, to a lot of people, which is, you know, there's four levels of learning, which is you start out as unconsciously incompetent. You don't know what you don't know. You move into the conscious competence realm where you do know now what you don't know. And at that point, you have to make a choice. Do I give a shit to learn how to do what I don't know how to do? And you then become consciously competent where you go, "Okay, I have to practice this until it's a thing." And at one point you become unconsciously competent where it's, we, we call those people naturals. Um, like for instance, you are a natural podcaster. I watched your very first stuff. It was good. It's not this good.
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- NPNick Pollard
Right? If you go back to my original videos, I looked like a monkey fucking a football. It would, I-
- CWChris Williamson
(laughs)
- 1:18:14 – 1:22:43
Maintaining the Boundaries You Set
- NPNick Pollard
and, you know, my sales kept climbing, and he checked in on me about every six months and, you know, really kind dude. I'd love to tell you that story some other time, but... Um, that's really where I figured that out is that I just read it. I read mine every day, and, and I revamp mine about every six months. So I go back and revisit it, make sure that the, you know, the things I'm working on are, are... You know, that I haven't mastered them. You know, it's, it's kind of... It's this mindfulness moment that why would I need to continue to be mindful about something that I've already mastered? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Um, so I just... I'll take things off that list. And that's another concept is that, you know, boundaries aren't static. They're evolving, just like you, you know?
Episode duration: 2:03:17
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