How To Stop Feeling So Burned Out - Chris Bailey

1. 0:00 – 2:56

   Intro

   1. CBChris Bailey0:00

      There was one study that was conducted around the 2013 Boston Marathon bombings. The team of researchers looked at two groups of people. The first group of people were those who watched six or more hours of news coverage about the bombings, and the second group of people were runners in the actual marathon. And what the team of researchers found was those who watched six or more hours of news coverage about the bombings were more likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder, and they experienced a higher level of chronic stress than those who were in the marathon and personally affected by it. (air whooshing)

   2. CWChris Williamson0:36

      You have written two books, two best-selling books on productivity.

   3. CBChris Bailey0:40

      Mm-hmm. Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson0:40

      And now you're writing a book about calmness and how to calm your mind.

   5. CBChris Bailey0:45

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson0:45

      What g- What gets you interested in working out how to calm your mind?

   7. CBChris Bailey0:50

      Yeah. This book was honestly a, a lot tougher to write than the other two. Uh, you know, we were chatting before, there are no productivity emergencies out there. May- Maybe there's a couple that I haven't heard of. Uh, but if you're a doctor, there are medical emergencies, but there aren't productivity (laughs) emergencies. Uh, and it, it was really kind of an urgency though in my own life that led me to write this, this book called How to Calm Your Mind. Uh, I was not in a good place, uh, a few years ago. Uh, I was anxious, I was burnt out, uh, and this all culminated, a lot of this was happening beneath the, the depths of my awareness at the time. And this all crescendoed on stage for me. I was on stage in front of about 100 people, uh, giving a, a talk on productivity, of course. Uh, and, uh, I noticed when I got up on the stage that beads of sweat started to form on the back of my neck. Uh, I felt a- as though I, I was struggling to get my words out, like my tongue had to dance around a bunch of marbles inside my mouth, and I, uh, I started just stammering and stumbling on my every word. And I realized up there, you know, right when I wanted to kind of flee (laughs) the stage, I was having an anxiety attack, uh, in front of this audience. Um, and I, I had taken on too much stress. I had taken on, uh, just too many commitments i- in my work, uh, and in my life. I had too much chronic stress, and found myself kind of picking up the pieces after this episode, um, where I realized I was burnt out, I was anxious. Uh, and I had been investing in self-care quite a bit up to that point, uh, and that's kinda what baffled me at the time, and got me to look at the research out there and talk to experts to try to honestly desperately try to solve this in my own life. Uh, I hadn't really thought about a book at the time, 'cause, you know, when you're in kind of an emergency like that, th- it's the last thing on your mind. You're just trying to, oh, uh, you're just trying to get through. But, uh, yeah, that's, that's kind of how this journey began.

2. 2:56 – 6:01

   Pressure of Being a Productivity Expert

   1. CBChris Bailey2:56

   2. CWChris Williamson2:56

      Was there any shame associated with being the productivity guy-

   3. CBChris Bailey3:00

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson3:01

      ... who also kind of doesn't seem to be holding it together while supposedly talking about his, uh, mastermind topic?

   5. CBChris Bailey3:09

      Yeah. Yeah, definitely. You know, I, I thought, you know, I, I think a big part of that was we, we tend to buy into these narratives that other people tell us about ourselves. Uh, and that was a big part of my own story, is buying into this story that people had shared in, in intros, in bios, in, in blurbs leading up to that point. Or, honestly, uh, and this sounds kind of ridiculous looking back on it, but I think a big part of me thought that I was unstoppably productive, that there were really no limits to how much I could get done, a- as if the endorsements were, were true (laughs) , you know? That, that I was kind of u- unstoppable or this superhuman... I, I don't know. I, I don't even wanna regurgitate the, the different words that people used to, to describe my work. But of course, you know, we all have these normal human boundaries, and I think that was kind of an internal reckoning that I had to go through, that there was this story that I, I had told myself about myself, that I'd constructed my identity out of this superhumanly productive kind of narrative. And it, it just wasn't true, because of course (laughs) it's not true. It's, it's the most obvious thing in the world. We all have normal limits. So yeah, the, this... I, I love the question. Yeah, there definitely was shame.

   6. CWChris Williamson4:30

      Mm. Yeah, I, uh, I think reflecting on Jordan Peterson over the last couple of years is a good example, a psychiatrist-

   7. CBChris Bailey4:37

      Mm-hmm.

   8. CWChris Williamson4:37

      ... that was telling everybody to carry a burden and be honest and truthful and so on and so forth.

   9. CBChris Bailey4:41

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson4:42

       Uh, people, um, his detractors online took a great amount of joy in pointing out the fact that he was the person that was addicted to benzodiazepines for a good while.

   11. CBChris Bailey4:51

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson4:51

       He was the guy that was on antidepressants. He was the psychiatrist that couldn't get stuff to work.

   13. CBChris Bailey4:55

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson4:55

       You think, yeah, i- i- it is, the expectation adds another layer of, um, guilt and shame and-

   15. CBChris Bailey5:05

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson5:06

       ... um, perspective that isn't helpful on top of already your own expectations of yourself.

   17. CBChris Bailey5:12

       Yeah. And we already construct our, our self-identities on shaky ground. You know, we construct them on top of our success at work, for example. But when that success goes away, we, we feel like we're kind of losing a part of who we are. And y- you're so right. There, there is that expectation. I think it comes with expertise. Uh, and I, I see a, a lot of happiness experts out there who go through periods of depression. Uh, I see a lot of experts on meditation who fall off the wagon. I see a lot of lazy productivity experts out there too, myself included. It's what drives me to explore these subjects of productivity. Uh, and, and I think we kind of need that contrast in a way to realize how well the best strategies work, not only for us, but for other people. Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson5:59

       What have you come to learn

3. 6:01 – 10:01

   What Chris Has Learned About Burnout

   1. CWChris Williamson6:01

      about burnout then?

   2. CBChris Bailey6:02

      Mm.

   3. CWChris Williamson6:02

      It seems like this was a period of extreme burnout for you. Uh, what-

   4. CBChris Bailey6:05

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson6:06

      ... what did you not know before that now seems completely obvious?

   6. CBChris Bailey6:09

      Yeah. It, it's what burnout even is. You, you know, you know, I, I think you've had folks on the podcast who ta- who've chatted about burnout. But in my mind, I thought it was just burnt out, you know ... Burnout is exhaustion, right? If we're completely wiped, we're completely depleted, we're burnt out. But realizing that exhaustion is just a third of the picture of burnout was one of the most surprising things that I myself discovered. And it explained a lot of how I was feeling at the time. Exhaustion is a, a core component of burnout, but it's only a third of the burnout equation as defined by, uh, researchers like Christina Maslach in the World Health Organization. We need to be exhausted, right? That feeling of being just totally depleted. Uh, but we also need to feel cynical. We need to feel as though there is this, uh, negative attitude just that pervades everything that we do. That's the second attribute of burnout. And the third is un- unproductive, right? We need to feel as though what we're doing doesn't make a difference, and like we have nothing left in the tank to make a difference with who we are. Uh, and it's the confluence of those three ingredients, exhaustion, cynicism, and inefficacy, that produces full-blown burnout phenomenon, that's caused by one thing and one thing only, and that's chronic stress. Any source of stress we face repeatedly is something that can cause burnout. And the more sources of chronic stress ... Some of them are obvious, right? Financial concerns, just, you know, marital stress. All, all these different sources that we can see. But a lot of it's hidden, right? The threatening information that we choose to pay attention to on social media, on the news, simply because it's familiar, can lead us to that point of burnout. Uh, but also, the factors of our work that contribute to a full-blown burnout phenomenon. Uh, there's six of them, in fact. And so the more in alignment we are, uh, with these six factors, the more engaged we become and the less burnt out we become. Uh, but these six areas of our work are also the, the Petri dishes that the chronic stress of our work can incubate inside of. Um, and so those are how much work we have on our plate, whether we're rewarded fairly. And that's, that goes to money, that goes to social rewards, that goes to being recognized for the contributions that we make. Uh, control is a third one. Uh, so whether or not we feel we have control over when, where, and how we do our, our work. Community, so whether we feel connected with people around us. The less community we have, the more likely we are to burn out. Fairness, we need to be treated fairly. And values, so whether we feel as though we can manifest our values through our actions at work. And when we do that, we feel like there's meaning behind what we're doing, because we can observe our behavior and connect those with who we truly are. Uh, but when we don't value the work that we do, or we don't have that deeper connection, we're out of alignment and we're more likely to burn out. And so, you know, just in case people don't read the book ... No pressure, obviously. But, uh, I wanna (laughs) kinda share those six factors. Charting how well you're doing in those six areas over time, uh, workload, control, reward, uh, community, fairness, and values, and noticing that you're on the stepping stones to that full-blown burnout phenomenon. Even if you're cynical and not exhausted, or even if you feel profoundly unproductive but you have more than enough energy, these three attributes can serve as kinda stepping stones to a full-blown burnout phenomenon.

4. 10:01 – 15:06

   How to Recognise Burnout

   1. CBChris Bailey10:01

   2. CWChris Williamson10:01

      That's interesting. What are some of the ways-

   3. CBChris Bailey10:02

      Yeah.

   4. CWChris Williamson10:03

      ... that people can better notice what's going on and self-regulate? Because this is-

   5. CBChris Bailey10:09

      Yeah.

   6. CWChris Williamson10:09

      These are emotions. They're going on inside of our heads. There is no external scoreboard that's going to tell us where we're at with our cynicism or energy or productivity.

   7. CBChris Bailey10:17

      Yeah. Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson10:17

      Uh, what are some of the ways people can self-regulate?

   9. CBChris Bailey10:20

      Uh, one of my favorite ways ... And I'd be lying if I said I did this every week or even every month. Uh, but since going through that burnout, I do this every probably three or four months or so, or whe- whenever I'm feeling exhausted or wiped, or I have that kinda dread on Sunday that I have to work again the following morning. That, that's kinda my cue to, to pick up where I left off here. And I just have a spreadsheet. So, I rate how well I'm doing in each of these six areas out of ten. And it's pretty informal. Uh, I haven't seen a, a ton of evidence, uh, behind this particular tactic, but it does feed into the wealth of evidence out there. Especially, uh, you know, workload is one to pay, uh, particular mind to, 'cause that's often one of the primary contributors to burnout. And it's ... In fact, in clinical settings, it's the first thing that they get you to look at. Uh, and, you know, they say, "Okay, can you cut back on workload? Because that really cuts back on how much burnout you have." But just charting how well you're doing in the six areas can really make a profound difference. And you can notice a trend line over time. So, if you notice that since, you know, COVID for example, your line has been ticking upwards, and, uh, along that upward tick, you're starting to feel more tired and cynical and unproductive, that's probably why.

   10. CWChris Williamson11:41

       You mentioned all of the different contributing factors that come from work.

   11. CBChris Bailey11:47

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson11:47

       There are two broad cohorts of people, right? One are employed and have a boss, and have a-

   13. CBChris Bailey11:52

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson11:52

       ... relatively limited amount of control over the work that they do.

   15. CBChris Bailey11:56

       Yeah.

   16. CWChris Williamson11:56

       And another one would be someone that's self-employed, and-

   17. CBChris Bailey11:59

       Yeah.

   18. CWChris Williamson11:59

       ... is their own boss. Is there anything that you've come to believe about the interesting distinction between the two, how they should regulate their burnout and their workload, and the social, uh, respect that they get from the work that they do? Is there something unique about those two cohorts?

   19. CBChris Bailey12:14

       Yeah. The, the fascinating thing is it really does vary. A- and so, you know, for advice on calm, anxiety, productivity even, uh, one, one thing I really believe is we have to take the advice that works for us and leave the rest. Uh, there is no advice that works universally well for ... And even if there are these six universal factors, uh, control is, i- is the fascinating one, I find. You know, espe- especially with regard to how much autonomy we have in our work. Um, you know, w- we, we may not have control over what we work on but in ideal circumstances, regardless of whether we work for somebody else or ourselves, um, we often have control of when we work on something and how we execute it. God, I ... You know, I hope (laughs) , I hope that's the case with us because so many of us do knowledge work for a living, that, uh, takes advantage of our unique mind and perspective and skills and expertise and experience. Um, a- and so we should fight for control however we can. And y- you know, one thing that I, I found fascinating in looking at the research as well is often burnout i- it's our responsibility to deal with when we go through an episode of burnout, but it's usually not our fault. You know, it's kind of the, the fault of whoever creates the conditions with where we work. Uh, and so if you're a manager, th- that's something I would highlight in addition to thi- to this. Uh, if you're a manager who has had employees that have burnt out, that should be your tripwire, that should be your, you know, your alarm bell, that something i- in the workplace that you're cultivating for people is fundamentally, uh, broken and toxic. A- and th- the key there, I think, is realizing that eh, burnout i- is ... You know, not being burnt out is not really a luxury. We need to not ... We need to be past the point of not burnt out. Uh, burnout exists on a spectrum. Uh, one side is burnt out, where we're exhausted, we're cynical, we're unproductive. And on the other side, we're fired up. We have this energy beneath what we do. We're engaged. We're, uh, we're productive. We're making a contribution. Burnout is on one side and engagement is on the other side of this spectrum, in terms of how much energy we have. And so it's worth fighting to have those conditions if you don't ha- necessarily have that autonomy, uh, where you can control, uh, what, where ... How you work on things. And if you're a manager, man, ch- check the environment you're creating (laughs) if you find that people have these conditions. 'Cause they're not just burnt out. Their minds aren't just suffering. Uh, their productivity is as well, in terms of engagement.

5. 15:06 – 20:04

   Danger of Repetitive Burnouts

   1. CBChris Bailey15:06

   2. CWChris Williamson15:06

      Why not just push yourself until you burnout, relapse, and then go again?

   3. CBChris Bailey15:11

      (laughs)

   4. CWChris Williamson15:11

      Why, why is that not an acceptable solution?

   5. CBChris Bailey15:14

      Well, because it's a, a recipe for misery (laughs) , you know? And I think it comes down to what you value too. You know, and there's nothing wrong with valuing accomplishment. You know, accomplishment does lead us to savor our lives less. Uh, that was another interesting field of research is the, the, uh, subject of savoring, which is just the process of enjoying, uh, experiences. 'Cause just because we experience something positive does not mean that we'll enjoy it. You know, I'm drinking this amazing, delicious cup of, of jasmine green. I think, uh, I ... You know, just like last episode, I remember drinking a little green tea with you, Matt. Um, and just because I sip o- on this amazing green tea does not mean that I will enjoy the experience. Just because we experience something positive doesn't mean we'll internalize it and generate positive emotions from it. And the more we actually strive to accomplish, the less likely we are to savor and enjoy our lives and, uh, and luxuriate in, in the positive experiences that comprise our day. And so if, if you value accomplishment, you know there is nothing wrong with having some hustle, as long as you have a direction. But I think so much of the advice out there, that, you know, we should hustle until we have this empty tank, a- assumes that accomplishment is the only thing that is worth valuing. And really, values came up a- a lot in this, uh, journey that I embarked on. We need to manifest our values through our daily actions. And I glossed over this, you know, a couple paragraphs ago in, when we were chatting but, you know, when we can observe ourselves manifesting our values through our actions, that's the process through which meaning is made, right? I- if we value kindness and we can express that through volunteering, we're gonna have a more meaningful experience than somebody who doesn't value kindness, because we can observe ourselves going through that process. Uh, if we value service, if we value connection and we can observe ourselves manifesting those things, w- we're gonna feel like we're making a bigger difference. Maybe even a bigger difference than we actually are, uh, a lot of the times. Uh, but it really does come down to values and realizing that there is a, a complexity of values that lies at the core of who we are, that we deserve to express in, in how we act. Accomplishment being maybe one of them but, by God, hopefully not the only one.

   6. CWChris Williamson17:46

      You would hope so. I mean, one of the interesting things that I've learned this year is people for ... I- in the modern world, a lot of people are very happy to give up the thing that they want in order to achieve the thing which is supposed to get it.

   7. CBChris Bailey17:59

      Yeah.

   8. CWChris Williamson17:59

      So, people will give up-

   9. CBChris Bailey18:00

      Yeah.

   10. CWChris Williamson18:01

       ... happiness in order to achi- achieve success-

   11. CBChris Bailey18:04

       Yeah.

   12. CWChris Williamson18:04

       ... in the hopes that their success will afford them happiness.

   13. CBChris Bailey18:07

       Yeah.

   14. CWChris Williamson18:07

       And I think ... Hang on a se- ... Yeah, I'm sure you know about the-

   15. CBChris Bailey18:09

       (laughs)

   16. CWChris Williamson18:09

       ... the story of the American businessman and the, the fisherman that's out on the water and he says, "You know, if you built this up as a business then you would be able to sell more and maybe you'd be able to employ a bunch of people. And then after a while, you'd be able to own a factory and you'd have all of these fish." And he said, "Well, why?" And he says, "Well, if you do all of that then you'd be able to spend all of your day fishing in a boat on your own." You go, "Well, that's my life already." And I do wonder-

   17. CBChris Bailey18:29

       Yeah. (laughs)

   18. CWChris Williamson18:29

       ... how much over-complication comes from people, um ...... trying to go the long way round-

   19. CBChris Bailey18:35

       Yeah.

   20. CWChris Williamson18:35

       ... in order to achieve happiness. And I think that success is one of the easy traps that that gets into.

   21. CBChris Bailey18:39

       It, it is so true, yeah, exactly. And, and so much of, of the modern world, it tells us what we need to do to be happy, like accomplish more, generate more status. But the, the last place we should be looking for happiness is the modern world. I mean, look around. The modern world is not happy. Uh, people can't savor experiences like they used to. People rush past the most beautiful moments of their life, right? Time with family, uh, time with these deep experiences, time that they could otherwise connect with what they value to distract themselves and to pursue greater accomplishment, things that pull us out of whatever it is that we're experiencing and whomever it is that we're with. And it's this, it- it- it's this disconnect between what we usually value most deeply on this personal level and what the world around us values on this cultural level. And every single one of us has a disconnect in that regard. No- not one of us, unless we never reflect on what we value or who we are or what our mission is, what our purpose is, um, unless we never reflect, you know? If we never reflect, we'll have perfect alignment to our culture and then we'll become even more miserable. (laughs) You know?

6. 20:04 – 24:00

   Evolutionary Benefit of Burnout

   1. CWChris Williamson20:04

      What did you learn about burnout from a, either a neuroscience or a, uh, evolutionary theory perspective?

   2. CBChris Bailey20:13

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson20:13

      I mean, w- why would burnout be an adaptive response, and what's going on inside of the brain and body when we, uh, hit it?

   4. CBChris Bailey20:20

      Yeah. So our body, it turns out, gets used to whatever stress we provide us with. And it gets so used to it sometimes that it gets fed up with having to go through the whole, uh, rigamarole of generating that stress response, uh, you know, to that spike of cortisol levels, our pupils dilating, our heart rate elevating to, to mobilize, to face down a threat, which was usually physical. Those- these days, we're just, you know, sitting in front of our email client, stewing over one negative message. Uh, and so burnout on this biological level is a refusal of our body to generate a stress response in response to something that our- our- our an- ancient mind usually perceives as a threatening situation. And, uh, I use the example of measuring my own cortisol levels in the book. So I had, uh, th- this, uh, uh, it was a saliva cortisol test, so it's not as reliable as a blood cortisol test. Um, but, uh, I had my levels measured when I was going through this period of burnout, just for sheer curiosity's sake. And there's kind of the normal range of cortiso- cortisol response to a strea- threatening situation. Cortisol, of course, being a, a primary stress hormone. And our cortisol levels usually spike in the morning, which is good, right? Because that's what mobilizes us to, to do the day, to get out of bed, to, to take on whatever the day might offer us. And then they kind of trail off as our energy, uh, goes down throughout the day. And I noticed when my own levels came back that they had basically flat-lined. Uh, there was no cortisol spike in the morning. Um, there was no kind of, uh, rise in the middle of the day, and it just kind of flat-lined all day long. And so, in other words, regardless of the stressful situation that we experience when we're burnt out, we can't generate the, the mental resources to overcome whatever stressful situation is presented to us. Um, and that's where that feeling of exhaustion, cynicism, uh, being unproductive comes from. Some stress is good, right? Stress provides us with meaning. If you removed all the stressful episodes from your life, you'd also remove all the meaning from your life. You'd remove the weddings, the anniversaries. You'd remove the weird Thanksgiving meals with family. You'd remove the, the most challenging moments of your life, too. But too much stress does deplete this capacity for a stress response over time. And that, that's what the research shows on the subject of burnout, is burnout is the refusal of our body and our mind to mobilize to a res- a stressful situation. It's when our stress response flat-lines, and it is the ultimate manifestation of chronic stress in our work and in our life that usually comes from those six areas.

   5. CWChris Williamson23:21

      So it's kind of like your body just giving up and saying-

   6. CBChris Bailey23:24

      Yeah.

   7. CWChris Williamson23:25

      ... "Uh, uh, I'm carrying too heavy of a weight. I'm not going to respond to the stress anymore, and my solution for this is to completely kill all-"

   8. CBChris Bailey23:32

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson23:32

      "... motivation to make you feel, um, doubtful about the future, and to dial down your ability to be productive."

   10. CBChris Bailey23:42

       Exactly. It's not working anyway, so why keep generating it?

   11. CWChris Williamson23:46

       Let's say that there's someone listening now. We're comi- coming toward the back end of the year, um, lots of people will have worked very, very hard, or maybe we're going into the new year, and you just think, "God, I, I, I, all of these things that Chris is talking about, it, it feels like that's me."

7. 24:00 – 32:16

   Strategies to Overcome Chronic Stress

   1. CWChris Williamson24:00

      Like just-

   2. CBChris Bailey24:00

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson24:00

      ... ticking off all of the different elements and maladies that you've described.

   4. CBChris Bailey24:05

      Mm-hmm.

   5. CWChris Williamson24:05

      How should somebody that is currently dealing with burnout get out the other side of it?

   6. CBChris Bailey24:10

      Yeah. Burnout is a fascinating phenomenon for that reason. And, and there's so much that in- influences how burnt out we are. But I think keeping-... kind of an eye on the ball that chronic stress is what causes that phenomenon of burnout. Uh, chronic stress is y- you know, we've all heard the term, but really dissecting the sources of chronic stress we face in our life. So, we have two kinds of stress that we face all day long, day in, day out, every single day. There is acute stress, which is the once-off moments, you know, the traffic jam on the way to the airport. It's the once-off argument with your spouse that's a huge pain to get through and it- it's what forces you to grow. But it's the chronic stress is the no-good, very bad kind of stress that we face repeatedly. Uh, instead of the argument with our spouse, it's the i- uh, irreconcilable feelings we have when we see their dumb, stupid face. Uh, when we (laughs) you know, instead of the traffic jam, it's the i- i- it's the traffic we encounter every day in rush hour on our way to the office that's like an hour and a half on the other side of town. Really understanding the stress that exists in your life is the recipe for overcoming, uh, this burnout phenomenon. So first of all, you know, dissect those six areas, where the chronic stress that... because that- that's where you should spotlight. Those are the kind of Petri dishes in our work that this stress tends to metastasize and- and grow and expand to- to fit a level that we don't really have the capacity to cope with. But then we have all the stress that's hidden in our life, uh, all throughout our days. So anything threatening that you pay attention to over the course of the day is likely a source of hidden chronic stress in your life. Um, you know, there was, uh, one study that was conducted around the, uh, 2013 Boston Marathon bombings, and the team of researchers looked at two groups of people. Uh, the first group of people were those who watched six or more hours of news coverage about the bombings, and the second group of people were runners in the actual marathon. And what the team of researchers found was those who watched six or more hours of news coverage about the bombings were more likely to develop post-traumatic stress disorder, and they experienced a higher level of chronic stress than those who were in the marathon and personally affected by it. Uh, and so that- that's shocking to me. You know, encountering stat- uh, studies and statistics are usually not that motivating. They usually don't drive us to action, but that one was kind of a holy shit moment. Uh, is this really how my mind interprets the news? Uh, so I compartmentalized the news checking to just one newspaper each and every day. Um, I compartmentalized social media time to, uh, one block within the middle of the workday so I could just get it done and get on with my life. Uh, anything else that I pre- w- I eliminated one threatening... no- not threatening, but one toxic relationship, uh, in my life o- over the course of this project to great success (laughs) and kind of freed up a lot of mental and emotional bandwidth. And so really dissecting the chronic st... List it, if you want. List every source of stress you face over the course of the day, uh, divide it into chronic stress and acute stress. And under chronic stress, do mind the stuff that's hidden, because all this stuff can lead us away from calm and towards anxiety as well, not just, uh, this burnout.

   7. CWChris Williamson27:53

      Okay, so somebody has realized, wow, I'm watching way too much of the news, and the-

   8. CBChris Bailey28:00

      Yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson28:01

      ... CCP's algorithm on TikTok is making me feel like I want to throw myself out a window.

   10. CBChris Bailey28:05

       Seriously, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson28:06

       All the rest of it. Um, but they're still stuck in this particular embodied state. Is there anything that you found as you're in burnout, this is a- an ejectus, uh, button that you can push which is going to help to actually really reinvigorate you, um, if you are feeling cynical, unproductive, low in energy-

   12. CBChris Bailey28:26

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson28:26

       ... demotivated. Um, what were the quickest ways that you found to get yourself back from that?

   14. CBChris Bailey28:31

       Yeah. So one simple way is to define productivity hours every single day. Uh, burnout has traditionally been defined as a workplace phenomenon, and that's not to say that it still is. Uh, we have stress that comes in from every direction of our life right now, uh, from our personal lives to our work lives. But defining boundaries around that pursuit of productivity a- at work is one of the most powerful strategies, uh, that I personally like to deploy every single day. So, at the start of the day, I'll choose when I start to care about productivity, and I'll define when I'll stop caring about productivity. Uh, these days, it's around 10:00 to 6:00, and so I have the mornings, uh, for just starting things off slow and deliberately and carving out a bit of time for meditation and reading and just having this slow morning that can lead to this calm, uh, deliberate day. Um, and- and then having this wind-down ritual at the end of the workday, uh, where I can choose to no longer care about accomplishment, and so, you know, that goes back to that accomplishment mindset as well, is when we're in this acquisition mentality, this acquisition mentality leads us away from this presence, this calm in our life. Uh, and so the more we focus on acquiring, the less we actually enjoy ourselves. Uh, and so this- uh, these productivity hours can kind of serve that double purpose of limiting your workload, uh, gaining more control over your day, having that reward at the end of the day. So even if these, uh, external circumstances aren't put around your- the boundaries of your work by somebody else, you can choose to, uh, to do this yourself. And if you're not paid to be on call, don't be on call.... if you're not paid to be connected in the evenings, don't connect in the evenings. And, uh, I think the, the irony of this is it's often by stepping back that we become more productive. You know, it's by stepping back, we actually recharge. We can actually, uh, spend more time in the analog world and not just stare at screens all day long. Uh, the, the most calming, energizing parts of our life are found in the analog, not in the digital. Uh, we can actually step back from this big source of chronic stress in our life and turn to the, m- hopefully more acute sources of chronic stress and meaningful ... Or not chronic, uh, acute stress in our personal lives. And so defining boundaries around that practice, uh, is critical.

   15. CWChris Williamson31:09

       That bleed out-

   16. CBChris Bailey31:12

       Mm-hmm.

   17. CWChris Williamson31:12

       ... from a period of productivity into the laptop is still open-

   18. CBChris Bailey31:17

       (clears throat)

   19. CWChris Williamson31:17

       ... I'm still working away, I've got something in the back of my mind that needs to be done, it's just-

   20. CBChris Bailey31:21

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson31:21

       ... it permeates everything, right? The entire fabric-

   22. CBChris Bailey31:24

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson31:24

       ... of your life is ambiently anxious-

   24. CBChris Bailey31:26

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson31:26

       ... because there is always the option to do work. You could always be doing work.

   26. CBChris Bailey31:29

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson31:30

       Everybody could always be scouting-

   28. CBChris Bailey31:32

       All the time.

   29. CWChris Williamson31:33

       ... scouting for more clients or-

   30. CBChris Bailey31:34

       Yeah.
8. 32:16 – 42:35

   Relationship of Calm & Anxiety

   1. CWChris Williamson32:16

      this sort of a ... You, you've mentioned anxiety a couple of times there. What's-

   2. CBChris Bailey32:20

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson32:20

      ... the difference, in your mind, or relationship between burnout, anxiety, calm, productivity?

   4. CBChris Bailey32:27

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson32:27

      How do all of those things fit together?

   6. CBChris Bailey32:30

      Oh, so much comes to mind, man. (laughs)

   7. CWChris Williamson32:31

      (laughs)

   8. CBChris Bailey32:31

      That's a blank check of a question. (laughs) It, it, it's, uh, it, it ... I, I find the relationship between these things absolutely fascinating. And, you know, this was (laughs) ... And maybe I'm weird in this way. Like, uh, I used to see, uh, the, the therapist I saw, I, I started seeing her when there's, uh, I didn't perceive anything wrong (laughs) in my life or in my mind. I was just curious to, to untangle what was happening up, up there in my head. And this is, this kind of has a similar vibe to me, where just sheer curiosity, uh, pulled me forward into this journey. But first of all, between calm and anxiety. So this was one of the more fascinating, uh, elements that I uncovered on this journey, 'cause I was never really compelled by calm. Uh, the only time I've really ever, uh, felt the need to find calm in my life is when I've become anxious, uh, when I've wanted just that anxiety to go away. And in my head, anxiety was, speaking of spectrums, uh, anxiety was always the spectrum that went from zero anxiety all the way to this intolerable level of anxiety. Uh, but the research shows that anxiety and calm are opposite ends of the same spectrum, where we relate to our thoughts either in a positive way or a negative way, and our mind is either agitated or it is still. Uh, and so those two variables determine where we are on the spectrum. But what this means is that we can go past the point of no anxiety and travel further down on this road to calm and continue to garner a lot of the benefits that a less anxious mind has. And one of those, uh, to hit another, uh, keyword in the question, is productivity. And this producti- this relationship between anxiety, calm, and productivity is fascinating, uh, because if I asked you, you know ... Uh, l- let's say you have to give a presentation to a thousand people in 15 minutes, and you know, all, all that is on your mind is this presentation, of course, because it's 15 minutes from now, you wanna do a good job. Uh, and if I asked you in that same moment, you know, 15 minutes before this talk, "Hey, you mind reading this article that I wrote and giving me feedback?" Or, "Hey, do you mind, you know, digesting and summarizing this journal article?" Or, "Do you mind, you know, doing any bit of knowledge work?" By God, you'd have a, a, a very challenging time doing it. (laughs) And, and this is the effect that anxiety has on our cognitive performance. Um, when we work with an anxious mind, it's for this reason that our work takes longer. Uh, you know, I, I had, I break down how about eight hours of real, actual work takes us about 10 hours, because anxiety actually reduces our cognitive capacity. This goes back to our last conversation on this idea of our working memory capacity, our attentional space, this mental scratch that- pad that we use to process whatever it is that we're doing in the moment. Anxiety shrinks our working memory capacity, uh, by about 20%. So might not sound like a lot, but when our work takes 20% longer, eight hours of work takes around 10 hours, especially when you, uh, add in the other factors that lead us to even a greater decline in productivity. Uh, we become more aware of the threats that are surrounded by us. We become more susceptible to distraction. Uh, when we're in an anxious state, our mind is more stimulated. Uh, again, a higher level of mental activity, and the more stimulated our mind is, the more we wish to keep it at that state, and so we're more susceptible t- to, uh, dopaminergic distraction, any distraction that releases a hit of dopamine in our mind, which is also, uh, uh, considered, when you look at the research, to be an enemy, uh, of presence and calm. Uh, not completely. Uh, it's more complex than that, I, I found, uh, digging through these ideas, but-It's fascinating just how much of a cognitive limiter anxiety is. But you look at people who are calm under pressure, that calmness that we can cultivate in our life, um, it is a wellspring that lives at the heart of what makes us productive and what makes life, uh, meaningful. It leads us to presence. It leads us to focus. It leads us to be steady and have this attention, uh, uh, and this confidence that regardless of what happens around us, we are where we need to be, we're doing what we need to be doing, and we can focus on it without our anxious mind tugging at our thoughts. And I actually think eight hours of work takes far, far longer than ten hours, and y- when you work with an anxious mind, and if you notice, you know, that you have less time than before, you have less attention than before, eh, you know, the anxiety is- it's kind of a hidden factor that influences our productivity (clears throat) . It, it's one we never think about, but it's one that influences us all day long. We might not have that same, uh, effect that we do before we're going on stage, but we have a similar effect that limits our cognitive performance only all day long when we're working with this anxious mind.

   9. CWChris Williamson38:11

      Isn't there something funny about the fact that most people who are pushing very hard, who are type A go-getters, are k- creating an environment in which their mind is less productive in service of being more productive?

   10. CBChris Bailey38:26

       Yes, yeah.

   11. CWChris Williamson38:26

       I'm gonna push myself. I'm gonna continue to go harder, but-

   12. CBChris Bailey38:29

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson38:29

       ... what you're actually doing is applying more brake whilst you apply more, uh, accelerator at the same time.

   14. CBChris Bailey38:35

       Exactly. And even on a neurological level, if you look at the networks of our brain that are activated when we're in this acquisition mentality, uh, versus when we're present with something. So presence, you know, it sounds like a hippy dippy term, but presence is just being able to focus on what you're doing. Uh, presence is the process through which we actually become more productive. And if you look at the networks of our brain that are activated when we're in an acquisition mentality versus focused on something in the here and now, they're anti-correlated with one another. So, the acquisition mentality is primarily structured on top of the neurochemical dopamine. Um, so much so that a lot of researchers refer to dopany- dopamine as the molecule of more, uh, whether it's more accomplishment or more stimulation. Uh, whereas networks of presence, uh, are centered around serotonin, oxytocin, which leads us to, to feel proud and connected and happy with what we're doing. And i- it's fascinating how we... You know, I, I feel the extra drive that a lot of people have compensates for this fact that they have less energy-

   15. CWChris Williamson39:45

       Correct.

   16. CBChris Bailey39:45

       ... in a lot of cases-

   17. CWChris Williamson39:46

       Correct. Yes.

   18. CBChris Bailey39:46

       ... simply because they spend more time, you know, trying to manifest this value of accomplishment all day long. But because of that countervailing force, it's probably a wash, you know, in terms of just how much further you get. You might as well enjoy things while you're doing them. Well, you might as well become more present in what you're doing. And, you know, this is, I think, the... Goes back to my philosophy of productivity is, pro- productivity advice exists to optimize the, the benefits and the contributions of our work. You know, we should feel as though our work is making more of a difference, and we do when we're more present.

   19. CWChris Williamson40:26

       I wonder if an element of this is to do with laziness as well. That-

   20. CBChris Bailey40:30

       Yeah.

   21. CWChris Williamson40:30

       ... if you are working more for longer periods of time, you actually can afford to be less focused. You can apply-

   22. CBChris Bailey40:37

       Yeah.

   23. CWChris Williamson40:37

       ... less effort to it. And running twice the distance at half the speed-

   24. CBChris Bailey40:43

       Yeah.

   25. CWChris Williamson40:43

       ... is significantly easier than running half the distance at twice the speed.

   26. CBChris Bailey40:47

       Yeah. And this goes back to that whole idea of productivity hours, and it seems like such a simplistic tactic, but I think one of the reasons it works so well is it has sort of a deadline effect. Uh, and so, i- if you have a full week's worth of work in front of you, and it's Monday, and somebody says to you, "Hey, you won this all-expenses-paid, uh, trip to Australia, but it leaves on Wednesday," you'll probably find a way to accomplish all of that week's worth of work between Monday and Tuesday, maybe Wednesday, depending on how this analogy is structured. And you'll probably find a way because of this deadline effect to accomplish it all. And it's just the deadline effect. When we have less time for something, that time limiter forces us to expend more energy over that shorter distance of time, so we can get the thing accomplished. And we should always have a bit of time pressure behind what we're doing. Um, no time pressure is an episode for laziness. It's, it's a, it's a sign that our work is expanding to fit how much time we have available for its completion, uh, which is often called Parkinson's Law. Um, you know, our, our work will expand, you know? It's, it's this, it's this thing we have to compress. So, if you don't feel as though you always have a bit of time pressure, not too much. Too much creates yet another source of chronic stress when our workload eclipses our capacity to get it done in a major way. That's a contributor to burnout. It's a contribute to, to anxiety as well. But we, we should always... There is this Goldilocks zone of time pressure, uh, and if you don't have it most of the time, you're probably working too many hours.

9. 42:35 – 54:34

   Can You Be Calm & Driven?

   1. CWChris Williamson42:35

      Let's say that there's someone listening who is a type A go-getter. They like the idea of accomplishments.

   2. CBChris Bailey42:40

      Yeah.

   3. CWChris Williamson42:40

      They like the idea of achieving and being in acquisition mode.

   4. CBChris Bailey42:43

      Yeah.

   5. CWChris Williamson42:44

      And they don't like the idea of leaving a lot on the table, but they also don't like the idea of being burned out and this ambient anxiety-

   6. CBChris Bailey42:50

      Mm-hmm.

   7. CWChris Williamson42:50

      ... and the stress and the neuroses and all that.

   8. CBChris Bailey42:54

      ... yeah.

   9. CWChris Williamson42:55

      What have you come to believe about-

   10. CBChris Bailey42:57

       (clears throat)

   11. CWChris Williamson42:57

       ... the balance between not leaving a lot on the table, about maximizing what you can achieve, about actually going out there and getting it and getting after it-

   12. CBChris Bailey43:06

       Yeah.

   13. CWChris Williamson43:06

       ... whilst having this more holistic view-

   14. CBChris Bailey43:10

       Yeah.

   15. CWChris Williamson43:11

       ... of the self and of work? Uh, uh, is it possible for these two things to exist side by side?

   16. CBChris Bailey43:16

       Yeah. Yeah. And, and so much of this, uh, journey for me was finding that balance. You know, I, I want to make a big contribution through the work that I do, and I also don't wanna be miserable, and I also don't wanna be anxious, and I want to enjoy the, the things that I create. And, uh, a big discovery over this journey for me was realizing that, you know, th- this connection between dopamine, which leads to mental stimulation and anxiety and accomplishment, and how I've come to see things, and this is a way that I like to find balance in my own days, is every single thing we tend to over the course of the day, uh, exists at a different height of stimulation-

   17. CWChris Williamson44:02

       Mm-hmm.

   18. CBChris Bailey44:03

       ... and so a different height of mental stimulation, depending on how much dopamine something releases. And so the size of the dopamine hit we get, it's... It fluctuates based on genetics. It, uh, fluctuates based on how much something directly affects our life, uh, but you can kinda divide by, you know, the same amount for things online because most things online don't directly affect our life that we see. Um, what really differs in the things we encounter online is the relative novelty of the information. Uh, novelty, if something is surprising, it releases a far greater dopamine hit than something that isn't. Um, and so, you know, online we can kinda sort things by novelty. But every single thing we tend to over the course of the day releases a varying level of, uh, of dopamine. And so i- it exists at a different height of stimulation, a different altitude. So hard drug use would be at the very top, which leads to a huge dopamine surge and then a plummet afterward. Uh, beneath that, it might be social media, it might be the, the super stimuli we tend to online, these, you know, highly exaggerated versions of things that we're, uh, by default, our, our mind is wired to crave and enjoy. So pornography is a great example of this too, this highly, uh, artificial, uh, thing that our brain is wired to crave. Uh, these exist in the analog world too, so takeout, anything on... most things on Uber Eats. Uh, this is my escape of choice, um, i- is, you know, that stuff is high... it's a super stimuli, it's highly dopaminergic, so that exists at a higher height of stimulation. But then you start working downwards in these heights of stimulation. And in the middle band are these activities that you were just describing. Uh, this middle band is where we usually make our contribution. It's things that are less... uh, they release less dopamine than other things in our life, but here lies writing, here lies playing an instrument, here lies having coffee with a friend and resisting the, the urge to rise to a new height of mental stimulation by checking your phone, staying in that band. Beneath that are the most calming activities that we can tend to do throughout the day. You know, towards the bottom are, uh, you know, just lying on the couch and letting your mind wander might be at the very bottom. Watching a campfire, you know, just watching the flames dance and, uh, kind of letting the conversation that's happening fade in and out at the same time. Nature, right? Hiking through nature might be towards the bottom. But different bands on this chart of mental stimulation, we can actually draw a chart of our own, and I highly recommend doing so, charting the activities that you tend to throughout the day to get a feel of what your average stimulation height is and get a feel for the ways that the different activities you tend to throughout the day make you feel. Uh, generally speaking, we want to lower our mental stimulation height because that is what leads us to make a bigger contribution. That is what leads us to also find that balance of productivity but also calm, and also enjoyment, and also, uh, accomplishment, and also optimizing the contributions, uh, of our work but also how our work makes us feel. That is the ideal band, and it's the most produ-... it happens to be the most productive band as well, um, instead of rising to these heights of stimulation that, uh, are difficult to come down from. We find this enjoyment and this presence and this deep connection with whatever it is that we're doing. That's the place we wanna be. So thinking i-... you know, maybe not necessarily in terms of laziness, um, even though it's kind of a lazy way to spend time to be at a high altitude, it's, it's kind of leaning on distraction and technology to do our thinking for us and presenting the most, uh, dopaminergic morsels of content to us. Um, it takes a bit of work to be further down in that imaginary chart, but that's where the benefits are.

   19. CWChris Williamson48:23

       What if someone feels guilty when they're relaxing?

   20. CBChris Bailey48:26

       Oh. Who doesn't? (laughs)

   21. CWChris Williamson48:28

       (laughs)

   22. CBChris Bailey48:28

       I, I think, you know, such a, such a big part of that relaxation guilt, uh, comes from the fact that we are terrible at measuring our productivity. Uh, and so we feel guilty when we're not making progress towards something. You know, because we value progress so much and maybe more so because the world around us values progress to such an extreme level, uh, we feel a disconnect with our behavior and those cultural values. But-... I, I would make the argument that (clears throat) there, there is immense productivity to be found in relaxation. So th- you know, one simple example of it, we talked about scattered focus last time, that, that mental, uh, mind-wandering mode of our mind. But i- if you're a leader or if you're a creator or if you're i- in a position where your thoughts can lead to you making a difference, or you generating an idea can lead to making a difference, there is pride to be found in this relaxation and letting our mind come down to a new lower level of mental stimulation. Uh, so, uh, going on a walk is a simple example of this. If y- if you're a, a CEO of a Fortune 500 company and, you know, you have a meeting and you blow it off to take a walk in the, uh, in the park around your campus, that walk might lead you to an insight that turns your company from a, a 100-billion-dollar company into a one-trillion-dollar company. One walk. Right? That's the power, that's the value of an idea. You look at, you know, say, Bob Iger or somebody wa- walking around, it's Steve Jobs walking around, or Tim Cook, who I, I g- who probably actually did this, (laughs) turned Apple into a trillion-dollar company. You know, if you look at Tim Cook taking a walk, a stroll around the Apple campus, you think, "Oh, man, why is he slacking off? He's not even listening to anything on his phone. You know, he's not listening to a podcast. He's not using that time to get ahead." Um, and this goes back to how we often are terrible at measuring our productivity. We often look to busyness as a proxy measure for how productive we are, even though busyness is really no different from an active form of laziness when we don't le- when it doesn't lead us to accomplish anything of importance, like when we're at that high altitude of stimulation. But when we look to how much we actually accomplish, when we look to the results that we generate for how we spend our time, it can be profound. So, the ironic thing about investing in calm and overcoming anxiety is, uh, a big part of me feels less productive now than, than I used to. But when I look at my accomplishments list at the end of the week, which I keep every week and, uh, you know, to kinda maintain the cont- you know, measurements of the contributions I make each a- each and every week, I contribute far more right now with a calm mind and with a mind that wanders and generates ideas than I did in, you know, a whole month of directionless hustle a lot of the time. And th- this goes to that acquisition mentality, that idea of this mindset of more. Goals without endpoints are useless. Right? We so often have this striving that we just settle into by default that doesn't lead us to contribute anything. But when we measure our actual contributions, uh, that's when we realize just how productive we are. Sorry, I feel like I went on for, like, 10 minutes there, but again-

   23. CWChris Williamson52:09

       Not at all.

   24. CBChris Bailey52:09

       ... we're tough talking about this stuff. (laughs)

   25. CWChris Williamson52:10

       Not at all. I feel, it feels a little bit to me like what people are optimizing for is a sense of hustle. It's like they're actually chasing-

   26. CBChris Bailey52:19

       Yeah.

   27. CWChris Williamson52:19

       ... the hustle itself as opposed to the outcomes that the hustle is supposed to achieve.

   28. CBChris Bailey52:23

       Yeah.

   29. CWChris Williamson52:23

       And this is what would appear to be one of the fundamental differences that you have discovered.

   30. CBChris Bailey52:29

       Yeah.
10. 54:34 – 59:12

    Self-Care Myths

    1. CBChris Bailey54:34

    2. CWChris Williamson54:34

       When it comes down to the strategies that you did in order to be able to find how to become more calm in life-

    3. CBChris Bailey54:39

       Mm-hmm.

    4. CWChris Williamson54:40

       ... were, were there anything that is commonly held calm wisdom, but that you tried and found that it was rubbish, didn't work for you, and-

    5. CBChris Bailey54:50

       Yeah.

    6. CWChris Williamson54:50

       ... or there was no evidence in the literature to suggest that it's-

    7. CBChris Bailey54:54

       Oh.

    8. CWChris Williamson54:54

       ... even beneficial?

    9. CBChris Bailey54:56

       Oh, that's a fascinating question. Um, uh, I would say...... a lot of the self-care strategies out there, uh, the whole idea of self-care, uh, was one area that it... It surprised me just how much there was to wade through, uh, i- in that area. And there are definite benefits to yoga and medi- I... I... I've been meditating for half an hour a day, uh, for well over a decade at this point, but yet somehow I still burnt out and still fell into this pit of anxiety. Uh, and it... it just goes to show that a lot of the self-care strategies out there, meditation most definitely works better than others. Um, most of the s- so many self-care strategies are just a Band-Aid solution. You know, if... if you fundamentally hate your job, meditation is not gonna help you. You know, it might help you, uh, you know, cope, but it won't fix that underlying issue. Uh, if you're in a... in an abusive relationship, for an example, the- there... or you have one of those in your life with somebody who's close or distant to you, you need to pull these problems out by the root in order for them to stop providing you with chronic stress that might lead you to a point of burnout or anxiety. Uh, and I think that, you know, it... more than anything else, when I look at what allowed me to actually welcome more calm into my life and move from that point of high anxiety down to that state of high calmness, it wasn't these, like, simple tactics. It was really deconstructing my days. And I think that's what we have to do. We now have to deconstruct our lives. Y- you don't have to go as deep as your values, though that most definitely helps to have kind of a... a reflection in that direction because, uh, our mind, we tend to optimize any currency we come into contact with, whether that be money, status, follower count, whatever, um, and that definitely includes a lot of the currencies we come into contact with in our... in our... in our modern culture that w- by default we want more of w- without really thinking of why. And so, having that values connection is immensely helpful. But we need to go deeper. You know, how much dopamine do you get throughout the day? Um, how much of your behavior is structured on top of dopamine, whether that be in the pursuit of acquiring more or in the pursuit of finding more mental stimulation so you can continue to fly at such a height? That was an uncomfortable truth that I had to face in my own life, uh, is so much of my day was structured around dopamine, and because of that, I never felt satisfied or present in what I was doing.

    10. CWChris Williamson57:39

        How... How so? What... what were you doing? What, like... what were the things you were doing that was chasing dopamine?

    11. CBChris Bailey57:43

        Yeah, it was just tending to distraction throughout the day. But, you know, I was pretty good at resisting distraction when I was on the clock and working, but when I was off the clock, the easiest way to entertain my mind, I would just turn on YouTube and re- receive all these dopamine hits. Um, you know, it was alcohol use, it was takeout use, it was, uh, tending to a lot of super stimuli in the form of social media and checking on things that fed my ego a lot of the time, uh, just checking how many books were selling on a given week. Uh, and I say week, but I would (laughs) check it multiple times a day. How are the books ranked today? Just to get that... that validation boost. And we need to go beyond the quick fixes to ask these... these questions and uproot a lot of this... this chronic stress in our life. And so I... I think one shift that occurred, uh, wi- with how I think about anxiety is the surface level, uh, advice that doesn't go deep enough. I don't know if that makes sense, but, uh, I... I think we need to go deep in order to find calm.

    12. CWChris Williamson58:48

        I like the analogy of you not being able to meditate your way out of a bad job.

    13. CBChris Bailey58:54

        Yeah.

    14. CWChris Williamson58:55

        That there is a fundamental issue-

    15. CBChris Bailey58:56

        (laughs)

    16. CWChris Williamson58:57

        ... and some of the symptoms of that problem can be dealt with. You're gonna give yourself more mindfulness. Maybe it'll help you be at peace with your dick of a boss or whoever it is that you're dealing with.

    17. CBChris Bailey59:07

        Yeah. Yeah.

    18. CWChris Williamson59:08

        But you're still in a shit job, you know?

    19. CBChris Bailey59:09

        Yeah.

    20. CWChris Williamson59:09

        You're still in a job that you don't enjoy. Okay, so I think

11. 59:12 – 1:09:13

    How to Down-Regulate Dopamine Craves

    1. CWChris Williamson59:12

       a... a lot of people are probably in a position bl- very similar to the one that you just described, which is, uh, very dopaminergically driven, um, permanently chasing distraction, probably when they're on the clock as well as off the clock.

    2. CBChris Bailey59:25

       Yeah.

    3. CWChris Williamson59:25

       Um, what have you done... uh, dopamine is one hell of a drug. What have you done-

    4. CBChris Bailey59:31

       Yeah.

    5. CWChris Williamson59:31

       ... to be able to downregulate how much you're chasing for it? Why are you not looking at the books sold or the news articles or the... the-

    6. CBChris Bailey59:41

       Yeah.

    7. CWChris Williamson59:41

       ... Instagram likes? Why are you no longer looking at that or wh- what were the strategies that allowed you to downregulate that?

    8. CBChris Bailey59:46

       Yeah. Well, uh, stimulation fasting, you know, I... I found (laughs) it is something I resisted doing for the longest time, uh, i- often called a dopamine fast. And I... I had heard dopamine fast, you know, mentioned again and again and... and I... I never really applied it to my own life, but I thought, "Okay, I'm on this... this experiment for calm, let me try this." And so for a month, I cut out social media, I cut out email on my phone, cut out all the... all the stuff that exists at a high height of stimulation, and I... I found that the first week or so, it was quite restless. It does take our mind time to adjust downward into a new lower level of mental stimulation, but the benefits of doing so are absolutely profu- i- i- and I... I noticed this i- in the most simple ways. So, v- for an example, I would often tend to just a quick social media check or a quick scroll around on my phone between things, so if a meeting ended at 2:55 and the next meeting was at 3:00, instead of thinking about the meeting, I would scroll for five minutes, uh, you know, these distractions kind of filling the gaps of our day like water. But-

    9. CWChris Williamson1:00:54

       One of my friends calls that a holding pattern activity.... so-

    10. CBChris Bailey1:00:58

        I like that. (laughs)

    11. CWChris Williamson1:00:59

        ... when you're currently just waiting, you're circling the airport, something's about to happen-

    12. CBChris Bailey1:01:04

        Yeah.

    13. CWChris Williamson1:01:04

        ... and one of his ... This is three years ago on a Life Hacks episode, uh, and he said, "Everyone's got a holding pattern activity, and what you want to do is try and make the activity that you use in your holding pattern something that you would want you to do." So-

    14. CBChris Bailey1:01:17

        Yeah.

    15. CWChris Williamson1:01:17

        ... what he did was he bought a Kindle, and he put that on his desk, and he kept his phone outside of his desk. So if he was in between calls, if he was going to do something, he would pick up his Kindle or he would, he w- uh, maybe he had some other stuff that he was playing about with on his desk. My point being that-

    16. CBChris Bailey1:01:32

        Yeah.

    17. CWChris Williamson1:01:34

        ... um, there's two levels to this, I suppose. One would be substitute-

    18. CBChris Bailey1:01:37

        Mm-hmm.

    19. CWChris Williamson1:01:37

        ... what you're doing for something-

    20. CBChris Bailey1:01:38

        Yeah.

    21. CWChris Williamson1:01:38

        ... which is better, but another layer deeper than that would be substitute the chasing of wanting a something for realizing that you don't need to chase anything and just allow yourself to be.

    22. CBChris Bailey1:01:49

        Yeah, yeah. And, and with the constraints of the experiment, I noticed that happening automatically. Uh, so when I couldn't tend to something on my, I, I, I noticed that I was just managing the receipts on my desk, which had been sitting there for (laughs) months. Th- this stuff happens automatically, uh, i- in an evening without going on YouTube, uh, 'cause I wasn't allowed. I deleted the app off the Apple TV. Um, uh, I would just scroll around photos and reminisce about old memories. And, uh, I think you hit the nail right on the head. Uh, we need to substitute activities in for these old activities, so there isn't some hole in our life that just we have to awkwardly try to fill with things in the moment, so ones that allow us to feel connected with others and this sense of pride. Uh, I took up piano lessons, uh, at the time. My piano is just on the left here, you can see in the video.

    23. CWChris Williamson1:02:41

        Very nice.

    24. CBChris Bailey1:02:42

        And, uh, a- and so now I have something to do when the call ends a bit early, you know, at this lower level of, of mental stimulation. And, you know, we Dopamine fasts for about a month, it's a pain, but it works incredibly, incredibly well.

    25. CWChris Williamson1:02:57

        What's the effect?

    26. CBChris Bailey1:02:59

        It, the effect is we no longer crave novelty nearly as much. You know, novelty doesn't drive what we do, uh, and because of that our mind settles down finally. You know, we finally settle down into a new lower level of mental stimulation where the calm things are. We allow intentions to inform in our mind, um, uh, to u- to inform our actions. And so i- instead of just kind of, you know, frantically moving between objects of attention, uh, choosing whatever option in the moment happens to be the most novel, uh, because we crave dopamine in the moment more than almost anything else, we have that pause before we act. And we allow an intention to form in our mind that, "Okay, maybe I should just organize these receipts," or maybe, "Oh, I have ten minutes, not five, 'cause they're gonna be late. Maybe I should just practice this piece on the piano." And we take control of our behavior significantly more when we're at that lower level. Uh, another, uh, example activity that I found remarkably well, I, I mentioned how the networks for presence and for acquisition are anti-correlated with one another, is that science of savoring that I mentioned, so having a savor list, uh, which is just a list of everything you love to enjoy. Uh, here's the fascinating thing. One of my favorite questions to, and you g- e- everybody should try this, uh, to ask somebody who is really driven, uh, in this acquisition mentality, one of my favorite things to ask them is, "What do you savor the most in your life?" And this stumps pretty much all of the most driven people that I've asked this to. (laughs) Um, and the research shows that this idea of savoring, wherein we convert positive experiences into positive emotions, um, men find it more challenging to do than women, and wealthier people find it more challenging to do than people who are not wealthy because of that acquisition mentality. Um, but having this list of things that we savor is i- is a beautiful way of practicing presence each and every day. Uh, it can be as simple as a cup of tea. It can be, uh, time with your partner. It can be, uh, a good book. It can be a fireplace that hav- you happen to have in the house. It can be an instrument you love to, something you l- uh, an album that you love, um, to listen to. Whatever it is you love to savor, make a list and deliberately practice this skill of savoring. Indeed, it is a skill. Uh, but what you're really practicing is not only, uh, optimizing the enjoyment you get out of everyday experiences, but you're actually optim- and practicing this skill of switching over this acquisition network to this here and now network. Uh, and the more nimble, nimbly you can switch between these two modes, the, the easier you will find it to be focused and present on whatever it is that you intend to be doing. And so this mental nimbleness that comes from the skill of savoring, indeed, it is a skill. We can even savor the past and the future. Uh, we can savor the past by practicing, it's called reminiscence, we've all heard the word, but we just relive a, a positive experience that happened in our past in our mind, um, and visualize it just for a few minutes. Um, i- uh, savoring, we can also savor the future, and this hap- counts as savoring 'cause we do it in the present. We savor the future, it's called anticipation, and we can do this by counting down the days to an event. We can do this by, um, you know, just talking about something, some experience that's coming up. But the research shows that counting down, even just counting down the days to an event-... creates effective memory traces in our mind, kind of a, a path through a forest that we walk over again, which leads us to enjoy the experience even more when it actually does happen, which, uh, i- lets us extract more meaning and enjoyment out of our time. So, dopamine fasting, savoring, just a couple strategies, uh, to d- different effects, right? Lowering the stimulation level and being able to switch between the acquisition mentality and the, uh, the present, here and now mentality.

    27. CWChris Williamson1:07:29

        Are there some components of savoring? Uh, individual skills that contribute to being effective at the overall job of savoring?

    28. CBChris Bailey1:07:38

        Yeah. Uh, well, th- there are s- kind of subcommo- components to savoring. Uh, so luxuriating is one of these. So, think of a cat, you know? So, yeah, I, I just got a k- cats are on my mind. I ju- we just got a kitten a few, uh, weeks ago. H- her name is Eleanor. Uh, think of, think of a cat soaking in the sun, luxuriating in the sun. Tha- that's one way we can savor an experience. Uh, gratitude counts as savoring as well, so the practice of thanksgiving. Uh, recalling three things that we're grateful for each and every day. This i- this is a ritual my wife and I, uh, have developed. Every night when we're going to sleep, before we kind of fall asleep, we recall three things that we're grateful for. And people ask like, "Do you run out of things?" And it's like, "Hell no. No." We, we, we, we could probably list 10 each and every day. Um, marveling is yet another, uh, thing. So when we, uh, feel a sense of awe by something, uh, whether that's kind of even just looking out the window and marveling at the snow, uh, i- it could be... Uh, and that actually, by the way, when we, uh, see through our whole eyes, including our periph- peripheral vision, that has a bonus calming effect when, when, uh, we feel a sense of awe with something that's visual. But yeah, it's j- just, you know, l- whether it's luxuriating, thanksgiving, marveling, uh, anticipation, uh, reminiscence, or just, uh, mindfully enjoying something in the moment, these all, these all count, thankfully. (laughs)

    29. CWChris Williamson1:09:12

        All right,

12. 1:09:13 – 1:10:03

    Where To Find Chris

    1. CWChris Williamson1:09:13

       Christof. I appreciate you very much. Thank you for coming on. Where should people go if they want to keep up to date with all the stuff that you do?

    2. CBChris Bailey1:09:18

       Yes, sir. Thank you for having me on again. Uh, the book is called How to Calm Your Mind: uh, Finding Presence and Productivity in Anxious Times. I think it's the best thing I've ever written, and I hope you find the same. It's wherever books are sold. Uh, I am at chrisbailey.com. And my podcast that I do with my wife is called Time and Attention. Bonus plug there. But yeah, the book, the main thing. Thank you so much, man.

    3. CWChris Williamson1:09:43

       All right, Chris. Thank you. What's happening, people? Thank you very much for tuning in. If you enjoyed that episode, then press here for a selection of the best clips from the podcast over the last few weeks. And don't forget to subscribe. Peace.

Episode duration: 1:10:03